Glen Tovee - Why reference checks should be your next BD tool!

Welcome back to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Glenn Tovey, who for the last 5 years has been building his recruitment career with a company called 94 Group. He started the company as the first employee, and from then he's been able to go on this amazing journey where he's now leading 30 people strong. He's been involved in launching several different brands, and we broke down how he builds new markets, how he approaches headhunting, and how he gets the best out of young people to progress and achieve their goals. Enjoy the episode. Glenn, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Looking forward to this. I think I mentioned to you when we were preparing for this and going through it that I've had so many people recently sort of say to me that they'd love for me to sit down with people that are sort of in the trenches right now building their career. I've sat down with a lot of founders and entrepreneurs, but I think a lot of people want to be able to learn from people like yourself and listen to someone like yourself because you've gone on this journey in the last sort of 5 years where obviously when you sit down with recruitment companies, they'll sort of point at people like you and go, look, if you start here today, you could potentially, if you work hard and progress your career, you could sort of achieve some of the things that Glenn, our director now, has achieved, right? So I'm really excited to unpack this. We're going to talk about everything from leadership, growing teams, the struggles, the hardships, but where we always like to start, and I think obviously as you've gone on this sort of leadership journey, you've thought long and hard about this, but I'd love to hear your take on the characteristics and traits that you believe make up a successful recruiter in today's market.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, thanks for having me on. I guess to go over what I think a good recruiter looks like in today's market space is, I think there's got to be a reason on why someone wants to move into recruitment to start with. I think individuals that are moving into the sector have to be motivated, and there's got to be a background reason on why they're motivated. So for me, you know, when I'm interviewing people, I want to understand more about their background, why is it they want to go into the sector. For me, I wanted to work in an environment where I was measured on how hard I was working rather than just being a number within an organisation. Like, I wanted to be in a position where if the harder I work, the more money I can make, and I feel like in recruitment as an environment, it's the perfect, it's the perfect place to be able to do that.

How would you describe Glenn before recruitment then? Because I think a lot of people fall into recruitment, it can typically be an accident. You said there that you wanted to be rewarded for your hard work.

Yeah.

How would you describe Glenn before recruitment?

Yeah, so before recruitment, I was at university. I spent a year at university, made a decision that, to be honest, university wasn't right for me. I was studying nutritional science at the time.

Oh wow.

Really, really enjoyed the course, but didn't actually see how I could make a career out of being a nutritional scientist. So basically I made the decision that I wanted to move into a career where I could essentially grow my commercial skill set and move into more of a commercial-focused career. So I moved into a company called Dexters, which is an estate agency. Yeah. I spent about 6 months in that business. That business went through the majority of the growth that they already wanted to go through, well over 52 offices in London. Like, they went through that growth, and I joined at the entry level. That taught me, you know, how I can develop a commercial skill set, what it's like to be in a sales environment, what it's like to be at the bottom, actually really work hard. And how to get to the top. But for me, although sales is an environment where the harder you work, the quicker you progress, I feel like in that environment they already had gone through the level of growth they wanted to. And I probably caught that business 3 years too late, right? Um, so I made the decision that I wanted to move into the recruitment sector, and I wanted to move into 94, which, which I viewed as a high-growth business.

Uh, so then So you have more of an impact, feel probably maybe more valuable, and yeah, have more of an impact on the business. So just quickly on that, a lot of graduates listen to this, a lot of young people listen to this. How hard was it to look at yourself in the mirror and go, I don't want to be at uni anymore? Because that's hard, that's a hard decision, right?

Yeah, like, it's a big decision to make. I made the decision myself. I did speak to my family, to friends.

Were they supportive?

They're very supportive. Like, at the end of the day, it was my decision that I made. I'm quite headstrong in the decisions that I make. It was a measured decision, like, I thought about staying at university, creating that debt, which everyone goes through when going to university, and then thinking, can I get into a role where I can generate personal wealth for myself early on? I was 19 at the time, I was going on 20, You know, and for me, you know, 19 years old, the easy option would have been to stay at university, study, knuckle down, get my degree, get my 2:1, like it seems like most, most of the graduates have achieved, and then move into the sector or a sales role 3 years later. And for me, that's sort of 3 years wasted, in my opinion. So I made the decision at 19 to pack a bag and move to London.

No, no, fair play, because obviously there's so much— you put pressure on yourself.

Yeah.

You've got pressures from other people's opinions and all that. So I really respect that. So I just wanted to just hear your take on it because I know that's just so difficult, right?

Yeah.

So let's just frame this up then. So like, this obviously describe today sort of where 94 is and your involvement, and then we'll sort of work back from that. So obviously we were saying earlier that Obviously you're responsible mainly for the 94 Tech team, but you're a director and oversee the different brands within 94.

Yeah.

And you currently have, was it 30 people? Yes. In the 94 Tech team that you're responsible for? Yeah. So let's work back from here, because obviously it's been a journey to get up to that point.

Yeah.

So let's just maybe just start, because it's typically the hardest year of recruitment, the first year. Yeah. Obviously joined 94, What did it look like when you joined? Was it just Ed, who's obviously the founder? Was it just you as the first hire?

Yeah, so I was the first hire in the business. For me, that was really awesome because I've got the exposure to work with Ed. But when I first joined 94, I bought into the vision, which was to be a multi-brand agency covering multiple locations, which was a purely organic platform, which really engaged me. Working on an organic platform where you've got direct exposure to an individual that's already successfully scaled and sold recruitment agencies was a bit of a no-brainer for me. And, you know, where I was at Dexter's, yeah, I was quite a few levels off getting that level of exposure to the person at the top. So, um, was in a box room, me and Ed were in a box room, and, you know, we started building what was 94 Group. So our first brand was 94 Tax.

Okay.

So 94 Tax is a specialist technology headhunting firm that focuses on placing candidates into the professional services sector.

Yeah.

Now that business was pretty much grown from the ground up. I think 94 was started a few months prior just by Ed before I joined, And sitting in that box room, you know, we were trying to work out how to win clients, how to build a candidate database, and I was sat there going, well, how do I actually do recruitment? So, um, putting all of that together, it was a lot of exposure quite early doors. And, you know, they always say, uh, throw yourself in the deep end and see what happens. I feel like I've definitely done that. Um, now for me, um, Building that candidate database, building that client database, trying to actually work out and commercially understand how you make revenue in a market space whilst trying to work out what recruitment is, full stop, was quite challenging.

I can imagine.

We only had a couple clients at the time. My first deal actually in the business was inside 2 weeks of joining. Really? Yep, which was a very proud moment for me, and that was into a new client which I won, which I'm super, super passionate about.

So talk me through that just really quickly, because people will be listening going, like, you're in, it's just you and Ed, you haven't done recruitment before, you obviously got terms with a client.

Yeah.

And you did a placement in 2 weeks.

Yeah.

What, like, how?

So for us, where the platform was, it was a completely underdeveloped platform. There was pretty much zero clients, and Xero Candidates, but we wanted to build that platform from the ground up. Um, so we had, uh, business development techniques that I was taught, and there was significant amount of training and development that was put into me. So I got external training, uh, through our external trainer, which still runs the external training today, called James Bass. And then I also got the internal training from Ed, and that was really focused on business development and scaling out clients. So You know, not one business development technique actually works to win a client, in my opinion. Like, you've got to be pretty creative there. So, you know, we were speccing, we were CV stripping, we're backfilling. And for me, I picked a market, I picked a location, I picked a market within tax, which was placing private client tax professionals into— I purposely picked a market outside of London, which was less saturated. Where I saw there was other competitor organisations there, and business developed into that competitor organisation, and specced into them, negotiated that terms of business, and led with that candidate and placed that candidate.

Nice. Yeah, how, uh, a common channel— I don't know if you see this in the young people that you employ now, but how did you, looking back, where did the confidence come from? You're someone that would potentially be perceived as a failed uni student.

Yeah.

That then worked in a company for obviously a short period, then you're in recruitment, then you're speaking to tax professionals that you could easily look at and go, like, who am I to speak to these people? Who am I to be competent and confident enough to talk to them about the job opportunities? And like, get lost in like not having enough credibility at that point to be worthy of like speaking to them and those things. Like, how did you, looking back, like Where'd that confidence come from to do those things, you know, because that can be a real challenge for people.

Yeah, so for me, the way I look at it is, you— I, I will rank the 3 different types of stakeholders that I'm engaging with, okay, including myself, which is the consultants, the candidate, and the clients. Uh, and I'm not going to go over where I, where I rank them. I'm— I purposely do put myself at the top of that list because the transaction with the candidate and the transaction, the client doesn't happen without me, and they're coming out to a third-party agency because they can't fill that role, which is what I think every recruitment firm that's there in the market space today. And if you're a month in or if you're 6 months in, you've got to have that appreciation that they need you.

That's how you have to view it.

Yeah, exactly. And confidence is everything. Um, if you can't sound confident, you're not going to sound credible, and if you're not credible, they're not going to buy into you. Um, and to get bought buy-in from a tax professional. For me, I think that's great, but for me, that's— it's not, to be honest, that the most engaging thing for me. Okay. It's— I view myself at peer level with every single person I'm engaging with. And I joined the business when I was, you know, just turned 20 years old. I was 3 months into my 20th birthday, and that was super, super engaging for me. And I was quite confident, I was quite cocky early on, which Ed worked with me to channel, and it moved me into a position where I started to work on my own professional maturity, and that then linked very closely into personal maturity. And I think to go on a journey where you then scale up and then hire only organic talents, you know, I'm still working on with talent at the moment which were onboarded which some of them are 19 years old that are working through this business today, younger than I was, and it resonates with me that if I've done it, other people can do it. And professional maturity is, is something that you learn, and you've got to have patience. And I went through the point of having the patience myself in that environment. So, um, to your point, I don't think, um, I don't think when you join a business and you're sat there speaking to a tax professional, it's necessarily a, I'm so lucky to speak with you. It's more of a, you're speaking to me because the level of intelligence that I can give you on the market dynamic, even by being in the market a week, is I know the salaries of all of the large competitor firms, which they won't have access to, which immediately they're gaining value by engaging with me. So hopefully that sort of answers your question.

Yeah, no, yeah, it does. Yeah, so, and I think that's sometimes what people struggle with is, like you said, making sure that as a consultant you view the value that you bring. And I think sometimes you can miss that or like lose sight of that when you sort of see early on, and you, like you just said, you just feel lucky that they're speaking to you sort of thing. So that's really interesting that you share that. So let's unpack some of this progression then, right? So because over the last sort of 5 years you've progressed all the way from that point where you're talking about now to becoming a director. So talk to me a bit about, because it's a real challenging period for people, like, when did you start then managing people? You said, obviously, quite cocky early on, you had to develop that professional maturity. When did you then actually start actually having people underneath you that you was then responsible for? Like, what was the timeline until your sort of first hire and you going on that management leadership journey? Yeah, absolutely.

So, um, for me, I started, uh, obviously started in August of, uh, not August of '17. Yeah. Um, Like, for me, the first year was basically developing and scaling out what was our tax business. Yeah, with no headcount, no leadership, working on my capability to be able to bill, consult, uh, and actually build credibility in the market. Um, myself and Ed basically sat down and said what was a year-long objective quite early on to me joining, um, around revenue produced in a 12-month period, but also new client acquisition to ensure that we've got a scaled business in place before I then go across and launch what is 94Tech today. So there's—

well, there's a story to buy in, but what— because I think this would be useful for people— what were— what was your revenue metrics you're aiming for, and what was your client sort of, um, commitment? And I don't know, signed terms with, um, customers, goals. Because I think that is interesting, because I think they're the sort of metrics that people look at to then go right, we're ready to hire someone. Would you mind sharing those? Because I think that'd be really useful for people.

Yeah, so it's £200,000 inside your first 12 months of employment, which is quite a punchy target.

Yeah. And what about client-wise? How many clients did you want to sort of have on your books, then go, right, if we get someone in, they're going to have stuff to work on sort of immediately?

Yeah, so the accountancy, the tax market, you want to look at you want to have a blend of clients which aren't just your top 10 accounting firms, where there's loads and loads of barrier to entry. You know, onboarding a Big Four is not the easiest thing to do. There's loads of process, there's RPOs in place. We wanted to have a blend of clients across the UK, which wasn't just sat in London, that wasn't just a Big Four. So for me, it was being able to develop not just our personal tax capability, but other areas within tax, so that we can successfully build out markets across every tax discipline where we can then cross-fertilise all them clients in. So an accounting firm will need to hire a personal tax professional, a corporate tax professional, an employment tax professional, and then we started thinking about that market and how you break that down, and you can have a consultant in every single tax discipline that you work in. So it was basically to build a client base that could sustain a long-term platform to then scale up and grow and grow that tax business. I then moved across in August of '18 to then launch 94Tech.

So, um, why'd you do that?

Tax was already an idea that was already in the business before joining. Me and Ed were always like, let's, let's, let's do a market which is high growth and highly scalable, because like we're organic but we've got clear ambition to significantly grow. So for me, I wanted to work in a market space which I could scale up not just around tax disciplines, but around the wider market space, which is, you know, how many areas of technology is there, how many tech agencies are there, and how can you stand out from the crowd. And for me, I wanted to work in a market space where I could see super scalability. So I remember me and Ed were actually out for drinks, we're at a rooftop bar, and he said, right, you've met these metrics, we're going to kick this off in a month's time, let's prep up. And, uh, we were probably a few drinks in, and I said, no, no, let's start it on Monday. Let's, let's build a technology agency on Monday. So, um, me being me, uh, I made the decision that it's going to happen on Monday. Okay. Uh, we started that, that on Monday, and, and for me, that's probably my, my hardest time in recruitment, which was August through to December of '18.

Really? Why was it so difficult?

Well, we had no clients. We didn't— we firstly, we had to develop a candidate and a client pool, but before we can do that, we needed to understand what was the market, what was the location, what was the spec, what was the niche, what was the skill sets. And figuring that out does take a period of time to understand, like, what's hot and what's not. And when you start looking at competitor analysis, you start looking at other organizations, how they're, how they're, how they're set up, what's the size of the candidate pool, what's the size of that client pool, um, what's the different ways of business developing. Um, for me, the big challenge was the way that you'd BD in a tax accounting, tax accountancy firm is super different to the way that you'd BD in a tech market.

Yeah.

It's so different, and that was a really harsh wake-up call because in a tax—

What didn't work that maybe worked in the tax world?

Speccing.

Speccing candidates?

Yeah, you could always lead with a candidate, and I think in the markets— so I've worked in quite a few markets, I've worked in multiple locations now in tax, in tech, obviously seeing how the overall business is run, and different markets require different BD techniques, and speccing and leading with a candidate just doesn't work. And you've got your candidate-led market, you've got your client-led market. And for me, when I, when I look at that, I would say tech is very client-led. Okay. Where if you've got the client on, there's loads of candidates, and all we do is headhunt. We don't use job boards. We're a pure market mapping and headhunting firm. So if we train our people well enough and we've got the client on, there's no, there's no barrier to them producing revenue apart from themselves.

Yeah.

And for me, that was, that was quite exciting because, um, in the tax market, it was if you've got the candidates, uh, you're always going to make it.

Open doors.

Yeah, exactly. But imagine having the candidate in tech and you're BDing with this candidate and they're going, not responding to you, and you're like, what's going on here? And it takes a period of time to adapt to that because I had such a, such a successful first year, and that was quite a hard period of recruitment for me. And I'd say that's my hardest time Because I was building what was a technology agency from scratch with investment and support, but the direction of travel was down to myself and how hard I worked. And trying to work out how to BD, trying to work out what the different markets are, it's not easy.

Talk to me about your worst day then in that period.

My worst day, um, 3 offers on the board, uh, worst week, uh, 3 offers on the board, 3 crosses, um, I lost sight on how to close because I was so hungry and I was so fixated on making that revenue. And I had it in my head, it's on the board, it's going to close, on the board, it's going to close. And because it, because I, it was a few months before I'd made revenue and it was a down period for me, I got complacent. Um, and complacency really affects, I think, a modern-day recruiter if you're complacent, especially at the entry level. it's going to catch you out. And I was super, super complacent. First one I closed on money, second one I closed on money, and the third one I closed on money. And I didn't really know my candidates very well, and I lost £60K.

Oh wow.

So for me—

How did you deal with that week? How did you dust that off? How, like, because that's tough for a lot of people.

Yeah, so I link it back to Where I started, I joined recruitment, I'm 20 years old, I'm trying to work out what way's up, and I'm linking that back to where I started and thinking, I'm bloody lucky to be in the position I'm in. I've got loads and loads of investment and support, I've got backing by a fantastic founder of our business, which I've got a lot of time and respect for, and he wrapped around me, he supported me, he invested into me, he stayed clear on what that end goal was, and I've never lost sight of that end goal. I've also got a very, very supportive girlfriend, so she was actually my last tax placement, which I think is pretty comical, and we're still together.

And that helped?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They say in recruitment there are 3 C's. I'm one off. No, sorry, I've only done one, just to confirm. Not done. No, came around here.

And so It's a tough week. So like, okay, so let's unpack this a bit because I think this would be really useful, and then we'll go into the leadership stuff. So obviously, so you had that, got complacent, working out how, what, how sort of business development worked in the technology market.

Yeah.

So talk me, talk me through, like, what did you sort of keep a close eye on, or what would you keep in top of mind when you was on that period to really make you feel like, right, I'm on the right track here, I'm doing the right things? Because I think Yeah, it can be really, it can really be non-forgiving and thankless task recruitment, isn't it? Where like, if for 3 months you're doing all these things and you then get to the point of having 3 deals and then they drop out, you're like, fucking hell, I'm back to square one.

Yeah.

So like, what would you keep an eye on that then made you feel like, right, I'm gonna do more of that, or right, that's happened, so now I'm going to focus on that? So what are some of the things that you really were keeping top of mind that helped you understand what you need to be doing more of and what you need to be doing less of?

Yeah, like, speccing didn't work, and I spent a good period of time doing that. Um, like that—

why didn't it work? So there was literally like, they just, they just weren't coming back to you? There's no bites, no attraction at all?

No, no, no, not at all. And that's pretty challenging when you're speccing out and you're speccing out 100 times a day, 5 days a week. You're following up on that as well. You're working bloody hard to build that business and you're not getting a response. Um, For me, that was super, super challenging. What I needed to do to basically stay on track, for me it was, you've got to be able to pivot, you've got to be able to change your approach, and you've got to be able to look in the mirror quite quickly and go, look, that's not working. You've got to be able to change. And for me, it was layering in more business development techniques to ensure that we had client diversification. If we've got the client, I know we can make the revenue because headhunting is, is, is what I've been taught, is what I've been doing from day one.

So if you had like good quality brands and businesses to talk to people about, you're confident that you then have— yeah, okay, yeah.

And client diversification is, is important. I think as long as you've got the client, the client piece in place, and you've got building that client group, you should always be able to plug it in.

So what tactics started to work, and then what other things did you bake in then that started to get traction? What worked?

Yeah, so, uh, we've done a lot of reference calling, which I think is really, really good. Like, I think you can build a market through a candidate without, uh, having to even look at the clients, but the clients will come. So, so the candidate was, uh, you know, building and developing a candidate database and asking them for 2 professional references every single time that you're speaking to them.

And talk me through this call. 'Cause it like, this is, we haven't spoken about this before. Yeah. Okay, so you get 2 professional references.

Yeah.

What are you then calling these people and saying?

Well, I think firstly, like, the professional referencing is a really, really neat way to speak to prospective hiring managers that aren't already giving you the face time.

Yeah, of course.

So if the hiring manager's not going to speak to you about hiring new talent because they've got a supplier list in place or because they can do it through their internal capability. You've got to find a new way to actually get in touch with that hiring manager. So reference calling is a way of, you know, you've got that mobile number, yeah, you've got their contact, you're referencing a candidate that they've previously employed. It's a really clean way of actually getting the face time with them, with them clients, demonstrating that you're a credible, uh, talk me through that, talk me through that call. I'm gonna stop on the spot here.

Um, so like you get their mobile, you call them up, yeah, what are you saying? You're saying, hey, just spoke to 'Candidate, we're currently working with them, we just wanted to do a professional reference.' Like, what's the approach?

Like, yeah, I could run it with you now. It's, 'Hi, um, have I got through to such and such?' Yep. Um, 'We're currently working with this candidate. This candidate is an individual that you previously employed. Before we put them in front of our end client, we need to ensure that they're professionally referenced, which demonstrates the caliber and the quality of the agency that we are, yeah, which is a quick mini sell into the company.

Yeah, sure.

Um, we then will go through that reference in detail, um, ensuring that the candidate is of a good quality.

Yeah.

But then we're quickly flipping that conversation and saying, well, would you hire that candidate back? Um, okay. And if they say yes, you're putting a brand new client with a candidate that you've headhunted, which you may or may not have a job for, right? And you've made the fee, which is great. If they're saying no, we're not going to hire that candidate back, for me, I view that as a positive, uh, like, I think that's a positive pushback.

Sure.

Um, are you hiring at the moment? Really easy question.

Sure.

Maybe they don't want to hire that candidate back, but maybe they, they're still hiring. Uh, and if they're hiring, for me, uh, it's an opportunity to pitch in our services, demonstrate that we professionally reference candidates before we speak. Or if they're not hiring, uh, awesome technique, which is start date backwards. Um, let's actually educate and consult that client on why they should be looking at that talent now. Maybe they want to hire that candidate, but they don't have any open spots, right? But maybe by the time that candidate resigns, works its notice period, and speaks to that, uh, person, we can align some dates. There's so many— a no is never a no in recruitment. You just need to be able to deal with that objection handling.

Yeah, so it's basically— yeah, okay, no, thanks for sharing. I know I put you on the spot, but that's just really useful for people.

Cool. Yeah.

And then just quickly on this, because I think this is interesting, like, does it— has the candidate given you permission to do this?

Definitely, definitely. We'll ask the candidate for 2 professional references that they need.

What's the why behind that? Pardon? I don't feel like many recruiters would do that. Like, when you say to a candidate, we need 2 professional references, are they not going, well, Glenn, like, you need to trust me, this is my background, this is my experience, we've gone through it. What's the sort of strong why? Behind them then going, okay, Glenda, I understand that now. Here are the two people that you can speak to.

Yeah, so if you create competition with that candidate, Paul, and you say to that candidate, look, I'm not going to put you forward unless you professionally give me two references, period, and I'm not going to disclose my client until you give me the professional references, they will give you the professional references. And if they don't, they're not going to get put forward to that client. That's the way I view it. And the other angle on there is we want to ensure that we're working with the best caliber candidates, and their word is good enough. We're engaging with them, we're proactively headhunting them, they're feeling special, but you need to be able to turn that conversation on its head really quickly and appreciate that although that candidate is special because you've headhunted them, they're passive, they're probably your client's competitor's top performer, which your client's going to pay an agency fee for, there's also hundreds of developers out there in the market space, and they're one of hundreds of developers that we're engaging with every single day. So although they're of the caliber we want to speak to, we want to ensure that we're leveling ourselves up in that conversation to ensure that they appreciate that they're working with a really shit-hot headhunter. And to work with a really good headhunter they need to ensure that they're passing our criteria as well. Okay, there's a give and take. I, I don't— when I'm speaking to a candidate, Paul, and I haven't done this for a while, but I won't roll over there and go, I'm just a recruitment consultant. I'm going to turn that conversation around and for them to appreciate that they should feel pretty grateful to have that conversation with me, which creates a very different dynamic to that, to that engagement.

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The first thing I'd do is get myself in the right mindset. Like, mindset is everything. Uh, being complacent is just not an option. I'd be reflecting on where I started. I'd view that as day one. Um, I'd be drawing on all my experience. I'd be building candidate and client pools, and I'd be using a business development technique and really identifying that really quickly about what BD technique works. And then I'd be building that client— I'd be building that market space around that candidate. Through different business development techniques with an objective where as soon as we're in a position where we've got client wins and we're producing revenue, I'd be looking and measuring that market space and seeing what is the average, what's the average deal size, what's the average base salary, how can I increase that average terms of business and really start sticking out from that market space.

Okay, and then the other thing I wanted to ask you— thanks for sharing that— the other thing I wanted to ask you was, you mentioned headhunting numerous times. Yeah, obviously right now, this sort of, for most people, the market that we're in, they— most people will say, I need more candidates, right? What, from your perspective, what are the principles of good headhunting?

Yep, um, I was having this conversation the other day with the team, which is pretty well timed, um, I think hard work. A lot of people will sit there and you look at productivity across the day and people have just got to work harder and faster and quicker. You know, if you put a glass screen and you're sat there at desk and you just act like that you've got your competition that's sat there on the other side of that glass screen, who's quickest to that candidate, who's quickest to that client? And for me, the fundamentals of headhunting is pace, urgency, drive. Whilst, you know, if you're hiring an entry-level talent, they've got no experience of headhunting and they've got no experience of building a candidate pool. So you've got to be quite clear in terms of what you want them to deliver. And then in terms of when, when you're clear about what the objectives are, you want to be driving pace, urgency, real volume through there, and then working with them to critique that volume into quality. And I think for me, a good headhunter is really, really focused on volume and quality. I think if you're just doing volume, you're going to miss the boat and you're going to engage with a load of candidates which just aren't of the caliber that your client's going to hire. And I think if you're sat there and you're only doing quality, you're not going to have the volume piece. And yeah, at 94, we look at what high performance is and we define that through work rate and the quality, and the quality, yeah. And I think you've just got to have both.

What's the, what's the objective of a headhunting call, in your opinion?

To engage passive talent, which would be our clients, clients' competitors' top performers, and be moving them through a transition piece of activating that candidate exclusively for us to be able to move them into to our end client.

And like, again, I'm getting a bit granular here just quickly because this is helpful.

It's okay.

What, so what does, like, talk to me through, like, if you're, if you're helping one of your team get better at, like, those, because we're talking calls here, right?

Yeah.

You've got a candidate's mobile, they're a high performer, you know that because of their skill set, you've got that experience, like, getting granular, what are some of the things that you're really trying to help your team do really well on that call? That you think produces good results? Tonality, opening, is it me introducing myself on that call important, is it asking good quality open questions, like I don't know what, any granular stuff?

Yeah, um, the granular part of, of that call, um, like we do a lot of training investment into people, like entry level, no prior experience, purely organically run. So a big part of my role is training and development, so I run all of the training and development across the technology team, so when someone starts in the business, I'll sit down with them and they get a really full-on approach for their first month of going through the fundamentals of recruitment.

Yeah.

And a big part of that is being able to effectively headhunt.

Exactly.

And when we're sat there and we're looking at that, that candidate pool, for me, the headhunting is you being able to professionally introduce yourself through that elevator pitch, um, and breaking that call down into two. I always break that call down into two. You want to pique interest, you don't want to say who the client is, you want to remain anonymous until you've built that fact-finding profile of that candidate before you're even disclosing who that client is and you're getting the professional references that you need. So you want to be able to build a profile of what that candidate looks like. We use the acronym PIE quite a lot, What's that? Personal, internal, external. Let's build a character profile of that candidate.

Okay.

So then we can effectively position an opportunity which is going to really excite them, which isn't going to be around comp, it's not going to be around progression, it's normally going to be granular details around have they got a wife, have they got kids, do they need a better work-life balance, do they need flexibility. It's all in the detail when you're doing that, that call.

So thanks for sharing that. Yeah, so last 10 minutes here. Okay, so with— I want to just talk to you a bit about the, the leadership journey. So I know, like I've said, super passionate. You said multiple times organically grown our platform. I know you're really passionate about bringing young people into your business and helping them be successful. A lot of people want to do that. Yeah, some succeed, some don't. Some people, um, hire young talent, then they're not in recruitment anymore after 3 months or whatever. So talk me through your philosophy when it becomes to, 'Oh, how I'll blend the 19-year-old tomorrow. These are the things that we're going to do with this person that we believe is going to give them the best possible chance of progressing, becoming our future managers, leaders.' What sort of do you think has really helped you enable your young talent and your, and your team, your business to then become those managers and leaders that you obviously want them to become and also need them to become. What sort of philosophies and approaches have really helped you achieve that?

Yeah, so I guess I'd break this down to a few key areas. So the first thing is the hiring. So you've got to hire the very best people that you think are at a caliber which you're super comfortable with, with ensuring that they're going to be successful. And that's a two-way chat, you know, are they comfortable they'll be successful on our platform and are we comfortable they'll be successful on their platform? For me, the next thing is the, I guess, the training, well, the investment piece. I guess you could break the investment piece down into two key areas, and for me, that would be training and development and career growth. So training and development, you know, that's the external training, the internal training, ensuring that they're getting the right training and development in order to actually be successful on the platform. Once they've got the training and development in place, the second thing for me around career growth is very much the progression opportunity, you know, is there a clear structure for them to actually progress through the business? So, you know, when I look over that structure, it's inside 6 months of being employed at 94, you can hire your first headcount.

Wow.

Yeah, inside your second year, you should be expected to lead anywhere between 2 to 4 maybe 6 heads. Yeah, you're moving into your third year, you know, I work with a gent who was one of my first hires called Michael Mooney. Um, he spent his first year actually training, uh, billing, being a good biller, uh, and then over the last 18 months we've built him up to a team of 9. Oh wow, really good. Um, so you can expect to be, you know, his third year, you know, anywhere from 8 through to 12 heads, I think it's a good position. And then in your fourth year, 20+ heads. You know, I think that's a really, really good position to be in. You know, and if you're 4 years in and you're 19 and you're 23 and you're leading 20+ heads, I think you're doing really well.

How do you help? Because that's really difficult. How do you support, how do you approach supporting those people? Because when I speak to people like that, they're some of the most stressed and overworked people in the recruitment business, but they're also the most crucial and important because you're not going to be achieving your scaling goals if you don't have people like that, that you can obviously hire people underneath. How do you make sure they don't burn out? How do you support them professionally, mentally? What's been your approach to that that's worked?

Yeah, so like professionally, um, I'm having conversations with all of the managers that I work with directly around what do you actually want to get out of your life personally to actually, uh, and, and recruitment should enable that. So, you know, we're having conversations about how do you get a mortgage, how do you buy property, um, don't get burnt out, take a week off a quarter. And I think it's moving into a leadership role, it's not about hard numbers all the time, it's not about, uh, build your team up, build your clients up. Of course we, we want our junior managers to do that and more develop managers to do that, but it's more around where do you want to take your life? And I think that's really important to highlight. You know, I've got people that I'm sat down, I'm breaking down their earning profile and going, cool, you can afford a house worth X, and if you keep running at this rate, you should be able to afford Y. And for me, that's super engaging for me to be able to take someone on that journey from entry level through to, you know, leading a team of 9 in 3 years is, it's really rewarding to actually watch.

So if I'm listening to this right now and I want to hire more organic talent, completely green, what advice would you give to me to sort of give me the best chance of getting the best out of those people?

I would say get the right training platform in place, I'd say hire the best people, invest into them through training and ensuring they've got good quality career growth, ensure that them individuals are motivated through that model, always be upskilling and ensure that your talent's always looked after. And if you're doing that, they should progress really quickly on our platform. Individuals should earn super, super well on our platform, and as a net result, um, we retain that talent and we'll be able to scale up. And I actually think in the market today, um, speaking to peers, organic growth is the only way forward, uh, to ensure that you can actually go through the scalability that you want to. You having a blend of experienced hires and organic hiring just For me, I can't comprehend how that looks and how that works because I just don't think it's a way that you can go through the scalability that you want to.

Yeah, no, what I take from that is like, as you said, having— make sure the standards are kept high in terms of who you're bringing in. And then I know, obviously, knowing a bit more about your guys' business, then really commit to investing in those people— external trainers, your own time, development and stuff like that— is going to be fundamental. So talk— as we come to the end here then, talk to me about Obviously, I said earlier that you've obviously then grown it to 30 people, obviously have big goals, obviously you shared some of the challenges early on, right? BD not working, thing, and learning that the hard way. Talk to me a bit about the future then before we finish, like what are you excited by? Yeah. What are the big goals that you have for the, obviously, the business that you've worked so hard to build?

Yeah, so for me, the objective is to in partnership with Ed to build this business through to circa 250 heads by 2025, which is our midterm strat, and delivering an EBIT position of about £5 million. Okay. We want to be best in class at software engineering, cybersecurity, tax, and legal. We want to be in a position where at the moment we've got our London office covering UK and Europe, and we're also building incubator businesses that is focused on the US New York market. In the middle of '23, we're going to move our incubators out there full-time into New York, into the office, and set up there, double that business through packing that round good quality graduate hiring, run that business, and then use that business to then scale out our West Coast business as well by 2024. So we've got a clear strategy on headcount, EBIT growth by being best in class in the markets that we're working in, and a clear plan on them office locations.

Love it. Glenn, I'm excited to see if that happens. We'll probably have to get you back on when you're in the thick of achieving these goals, but it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks a lot for coming on.

Thanks very much for having me.

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