Glen Walsh - How planning, branding and values are just as important as your billings.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm delighted, I'm very excited to have Glen Walsh on the podcast. And Glen Walsh is the founding director of 3 recruitment businesses called Aspion, The Advocate Group, and more recently Milk Education. They have circa 40 people across these businesses. And have offices in Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham. And I think Glen's probably one of the most passionate people I've met in a while when talking about recruitment in this industry. So I'm super excited to have you on, Glen, and thank you for joining me. So where are you today again? I forgot you're in—

Yeah, that's right. So no, I live in a place called West Kirby, which is on the Wirral. So we've got off-wells in that area. And yeah, luckily we've been catching a bit of decent sunshine over the past few days.

So as I was saying to you before this, where where I love to start on this podcast is how did Glenn Walsh enter the world of recruitment? Let's start there with that story.

Yeah, good stuff. So at the beginning, and then look, I think like a lot of recruiters, I completely fell into it. I think it was more of a locational thing that happened to me. So I was living in Carlisle after leaving university. What did you do at uni? So a sports science degree. Okay. Had zero impact on my career in any way, shape, or form, but I did it anyway. 3 years of getting drunk. I know I probably shouldn't say these things, but Do you know what? It was a great growing up time. It was a great time. I left university on the Sunday, started a job on the Monday.

Really?

Yeah, absolutely. There was no in-between. Look, my parents supported me as best they could. So I kind of knew when I left university that I had zero choice but to go and work and almost repair that investment that they'd had. So yeah, my parents lived in Carlisle. So I moved up to Carlisle. Enterprise Rent-A-Car for 6 months. But I wanted to live in London. It was as simple as that.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I did. Yeah, I just thought to myself, I want to test myself in what I perceive to be the biggest city in the world. And I had a lot of friends I met at university. So a friend of a friend, she's in recruitment. I took a week off work, came down to London, met at a rec-to-rec firm.

Did you think you was interviewing for them?

I still couldn't quite get my head around it, right? So I said, what? I couldn't believe that as an industry even existed. But yeah, I then interviewed with 3 businesses, a company called Parker Bridge, an accounting and finance recruiter. Oh gosh, it's gone back a long— Harvey Nash and Bedrock and Clark. So yeah, the idea of recruitment was, it was sales, it was London, let's go for it. So I literally, I did that within 5 days, went back up to Carlisle, handed in my notice on the Monday, 3 weeks later moved down to London. So Literally straight in there.

What happened in London, or you moving to London, what happened with that that you didn't expect? So clearly you had in your head what you thought is going to be like, but like, because I went through that process myself and it's definitely taught me a lot and it's one of the best decisions I've made so far in my short time on this earth so far. But what, just quickly, like for you, what happened personally or professionally that you didn't expect? When moving to London and doing that?

Yeah, look, I think the— so my parents and friends lived in Carlisle. I'm from Bolton originally.

Okay.

The distance between the two is absolutely—

yeah, yeah, for sure. It is.

And, you know, I was quite fortunate because I had friends there. However, I moved into a place called Harrowdale, just in— just outside of Romford.

Okay.

And I ended up getting a job just outside of Chancery Lane tube station. Yeah, yeah. So that traveling time, anything between an hour, an hour and 10 minutes a day, was outrageous. That's, you know, Carlisle to near Manchester. So that I did not fathom. I did not understand that. So yeah, I didn't enjoy that. But I just think the whole intensity of it all, I think the whole intensity of London, I created my own intensity around it definitely because there was an overwhelming fear of failure. Really? Yeah, there was. Yeah, I think that going back to London, my ex-bosses—

How old was you then?

So literally 22. So straight out of university. So straight in there. My ex-boss at Enterprise Rent-A-Car, when I handed my notice in, laughed at me and just said, nah, Glenn, that's not gonna work for you. That's not gonna work for you. Just so you know, when things go wrong, you can come back. I thought, all right, okay. It was the worst thing he said. When someone says to me I can't, that's almost, within reason of course, even more of a challenge to do so. So yeah, I think the whole intensity of London, I think the expense of it, was—

yeah, yeah. So how long did you live in London for?

So I was in London originally for 3 and a half years. Look, I joined— sent me to New Zealand for 12 months.

Really?

Yeah, which is a real eye-opener. I then— and that was my original path of setting up my own business. So I went to New Zealand for 12 months, run an office of 22 people, built some good money while I was there. And while I was over there, I started on that journey and thinking of Okay, could I do this by myself? So probably a bit too early, if I'm honest with you. If I had my time again, I think the idea, you know, I had 3 and a half years.

So 3 and a half years. Okay. So just, just quickly, because I think—

Yeah, sorry.

No, no, no, it's good. So, okay, that's awesome. So 3 and a half years. So you stayed at one company for 3 and a half years. That's a real solid stint, really. Yeah. Okay. And just give me a bit of context. What market was it that you recruited in at that point?

I originally started on temporary accountancy and finance.

Okay.

I kind of got myself into a very good position quite quickly. The director at the time put me in front of, wittingly or not, right in front of the managing director's office. So that learning— a glass office. So that learning experience that almost every single second of every single day I thought to myself she was watching what I was doing. She's probably taking no notice.

Yeah.

Well, because of that was a unbelievable learning experience. So even if I did have that little bit of a lazy gene in me, which I didn't do, I didn't believe I did, it kind of helps you raise your standards or make sure your standards are high beyond levels that I didn't even believe existed within me.

Okay. So why was it that Glenn Walsh got the opportunity to go to New Zealand then? Because I think obviously there's loads of, in the sort of over the recent months, 6 to 12 months, you may or may not have these conversations, but loads of recruitment businesses looking at the American market, and obviously more recently that may have changed or how people are looking at it, but I think there's definitely real opportunity and appetite for recruiters to take their skill set internationally if they want to, which is one of the coolest things about it, right? But I mean, may or may not be, I don't know obviously what year this was, may have been slightly easier back then, but why was it that Glen Walsh out of that business got that opportunity?

Yeah. Good stuff. So one of the reasons why I joined the business is because they actually had an Australian/New Zealand office.

Okay.

University in my second year, you could do a work experience. So instead of doing work experience in the UK, I decided let's go and do work experience.

Oh, okay. Nice.

So this was 1997. So yeah.

Oh, fucking hell.

Yeah. A long time ago. Right. So long story short, we printed off Yale.com in Australia. We were doing sports science degree. We, I just, we were drunk one night. I got on the phone at 2 o'clock in the morning, called lots of different gyms.

Love that.

Got 3 placements. Me and 3 of my friends went over there. Had a great time. And had a vision that I would go back there. So I joined the business because of that. But the reason why I got sent and the reason why I ended up opening up different divisions within that company was purely and simply this. Because I was sat in front of the MD's office, I overheard opportunities being spoken about. And I overheard one day that the director in New Zealand was considering coming back. So I then spent 3 days, 4 days writing a full business plan and writing the reason why they should send me over to go and do that. It wasn't even on the cards at the time. Well, that then pushed it quite hard. They hadn't considered that, look, I was going from assistant manager. I said they had to promote me to director, which of course they didn't do. They didn't promote me at all. They sent me to New Zealand. But I was always looking for those opportunities and very much on my desk. I was sniffing out the opportunities. So if I'm doing it in recruitment, why shouldn't I be doing it with my own career? And I think that was the leading, or that was the major reason why they sent me.

Where did that initiative come from? Because I think it's come up a couple of times now where I think, like, for me, in my career, I worked for a big insurance firm, then joined a small insurance firm, had more direct access to the CEO of that business, and that transition experience just really sort of made me think, and my own personal opinion was, I would rather, me personally, take opportunities in smaller growing businesses because of what you're talking about there, that you have more direct access to the people that actually own the business and you can learn from these people. And also there'd be more opportunities. So I think, but I think it's exactly what you just said, like you are, you're looking, um, on behalf of other people to progress their career, their opportunities. So why would I not do that for my own career? I think a lot of people in today's world and want it to come to them, or they do, they deliver a certain thing and they think, well, why aren't they coming to me and saying, Glenn, you should be the director of New Zealand. But actually, in these smaller growing businesses, more agile businesses, you can walk into the office and go, look, I know we haven't spoken about this before, but I've just taken it upon me to do this business plan for the last 4 days. This is why you should consider me. Like, where did that initiative come from? Because I think a lot of people can benefit from that. And Really, really good question. Maximal.

Really good question. Look, you know, if I'm going to get really deep in it, it clearly would have to come from some form of parental drive to want to succeed, you know. So the first person I called when I, when I got the job was my dad. So there's almost an element of that. I've got it, of course. I played football to a half-decent standard as a young man, and I think that, that competitive edge— and look, if the older I get, the better I was. If I could replicate my drive now, what I had or what I've got now when I was 17, I think I would have been very good at football or a lot better than what I was. Yeah. And I think that ultimately, I think what I, I think it dawned on me very, very quickly that I was not, I can't sing like Beyoncé and I'm not going to play for Manchester United. So work would be my only choice.

What about Bolton?

Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I don't know why I laugh at Bolton. And the worst thing is, and I get ripped for that as well, but you've got to follow your father. My father supports. Not that I'm a glory hunter in any way, shape, or form, and I will sprout my season tickets in a second. But I think, look, yeah, I think it dawned on me fairly quickly. That's why I went into work straight away. That, yeah, actually, you've— this is something I'm going to be doing now for the rest of my life. So I need to—

Do you really believe that?

Yeah. Do you know what? I look— no, not worried about recruitment. What I looked at is, is that— so it was a conversation that my father had with me, and I watched my dad. He was just a fridge engineer, one-man band. So there was a bit of a run-your-own-business mentality in our house. I used to watch him come home from work, absolutely the tightest man I've ever seen in my life. I used to think, I don't want to look like that. Yeah. Well, so I wasn't fully bought into the idea, but I know when I left university and I was coming down to London, fear of failure, I have to ensure that this works in every way, shape, or form.

Yeah.

I have no choice around it. So then because of that and because I don't know, I never actually ever thought I was just the norm. I always thought to myself that I was a little bit different. Yeah. I don't know. I was always sniffing out for what next, what next. Well, that what next mentality which I've still got now, I'll never stop. You know, it's been said to me, Glenn, there might be a situation where, you know, when you get to the end of your life, if you're always saying what next, will you ever achieve what you want? I don't give a damn. As long as you enjoy that sacrifice to try and get there.

Yeah.

So yeah, look. Yeah, I sniffed out the opportunity, but we were in an environment to allow that as well.

Yeah, which obviously is absolutely an important variable.

Yes.

I guess just to sort of round that off before we start talking about your journey as a business owner then, I guess in terms of like people that listening to this that want those opportunities or sort of advice that you give to people in hindsight now of if they're listening to this and yeah, they do want to be the person that the business owner thinks of first to consider give this opportunity, or like, what should people be doing to give themselves the best possible chance in a recruitment business of progressing their career, do you think? Yeah, what would your advice be?

Well, it's something we've been discussing internally within the business at the moment, but, um, there wasn't anybody unaware of what my drive and outcomes were when I joined Parker Bridge. There was no question about it. They knew that I wanted to be the next MD. Even at 21 years old. That wasn't— it probably could probably come across as arrogance to begin with, but they were— I was— I left nobody with any doubt that what I was there for, I wasn't there for friendships. And I was still— I got on well with people. I was there to create as much money as I can for myself, but to not fail and to drive my career forward. Because— and I never put it into this context, but, you know, I kind of say it nowadays, but I almost turned it into my mindset being And I never used the word mindset then because it's a— but that was my Manchester United. So I'm going to go in every single day. I'm going to give you my 100%. Love that. And I think if you're doing that, you're always going to create opportunities. Even if you work, even if you do any job, the person who's working the hardest, the person who's willing to sacrifice and just do the shit that nobody else wants to, then they tend to do quite well. But the awareness of our job means you're always hunter-gathering. The awareness of the questions that we say within our clients, you're always looking for that next new thing. And sorry if I've digressed slightly, but Parker Bridge were always pushing you to actually go and look at new markets, new avenues, new ways. And I think, yeah, and I think they inspired it with my absolute fear, or fear of failure, and willing to work as hard as I could work, people.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. I absolutely love that. So, okay, so In New Zealand then, guy from Bolton ended up in New Zealand, involved in recruitment business, running obviously teams. So yeah, I understand why the sort of seed of, well, hang on a minute, I'm on the other side of the world, I'm running teams, I'm growing this business for Parker Bridge, what would this look like sort of for myself? So just to help me understand then, and the people listening, so this sort of journey from you coming back from New Zealand then, is that when you started your the one of your recruitment businesses, or how, what was that? How did it start?

Yeah, yeah, because so it actually, it started 6 months into New Zealand. So it was the first time I got any form of access to a P&L understanding of the finance side of things. I was working in accounting and finance anyway, and I was billing very well. I was managing well. I kind of, again, there was a circumstance to it. My, the business itself was going through a management buyout. And I was kind of given, put into a position where, are you going to stay with us or are you not? Do you want to be part and parcel of this MBO? And then it kind of got me thinking, well, look, if I'm going to be part and parcel of a management buyout, do I, I'm going to have to commit to these guys. But is that really what I want? I think my real drive and hunger to go and do something for myself kind of just took over. So 6 months into New Zealand, and this goes to show how old I was, this is 2001 to 2002. I would leave work at 7 o'clock, walk around the corner to an internet cafe. Oh my God. Into an internet cafe. And then I would spend between, I don't know, 7 till 10 working on the idea of building my own business. So the day I came back is 48 hours later, I resigned from my job.

Wow.

So I'd already planned it, done it, set it up, ready to roll. It didn't go well, but I'll talk about that in a second. But that was the plan.

Okay, so, okay, so just to help me out then. So as I said, obviously, as we said in this intro, Glenn involved in 3 recruitment businesses. So the business that you started, was it one of those businesses then, or was it— yeah, okay.

Yeah, it wasn't. So again, so briefly, my idea was, is that I wanted to do with an individual that I trusted, an individual where, you know, being by yourself in your living room in London in a one-bedroom flat didn't sound appealing because it wasn't the dream. But not the dream. So an individual was meant to be coming and joining, setting this up with me, and 12 weeks into the full ready to roll, he pulled out on me last minute.

Oh wow.

Yeah, so it wasn't too bad. I had to then go out into the market, and lucky I found an individual who was willing to kind of joint venture with me. He had a financial services recruiter, and I set up an accounting finance division originally, then turned into a business which we traded for about 2 and a half years.

Okay, cool.

So yeah, so I kind of had— I wouldn't say an easier route, it was absolutely identical to it. Same investment type, same money in, but I didn't know the individual, and that was the interesting side of it.

Yeah, that is interesting.

Yeah.

So okay, and then just to frame up then, so you had that experience, 2 and a half years, and then after that, was it you started the— was it more the early business Aspien, that was the original one, correct? Original one. And then also later on down the line you started Advocate Group, correct? And then more recently Milk Education. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Okay, cool.

I'm smiling because I'm going to say that because it has been a— it's been a— yeah, it's been crazy ride over the past 15 years.

Why more than one? And why continue to sort of evolve and be involved with other businesses? Why not just the one recruitment business?

Yeah.

Where does this come from?

Yeah, good stuff. Well, when Aspirian originally set up, it morphed into a financial services recruiter, predominantly, which is— no, no, no, it was accounting and finance.

Okay.

So it actually changed slightly where this was financial services sales. So not only that, specify, or let's say specializing in subprime lenders. So as we got into the late 2000s, so 2007, 2008, and 2009, when there was a market crash, we went from having 300 exclusive vacancies to nothing overnight. So Black Horse Finance, Welcome Finance, which then stopped existing. So a lot of the subprime lenders, they were our main clients. So there was a— I can't deny how tough that was.

You know, what did that teach you that's important now?

Wow, you know, where do you even start? And I think somebody asked me something similar the other day, you know, did you learn a lot of lessons from that? And I was like, well, yeah, I'd rather have read them in a book.

Yeah, of course.

Someone else experienced them. But what did it teach me? I think lean, definitely, without a shadow of a doubt. But business mix was the key thing that went through my mind.

Not having all your eggs in one basket, basically.

Yeah. So all our eggs were sat in the financial services subprime.

That's really interesting.

Which hurts me. So then almost we had to start again, again. And then my main drive was let's look at almost relative market resistance because it's just the pain and the money that I lost, relatively market resistant industries. In 2012, you know, it did, you know, it took a good couple of years for Aspion just to get back to reality. You know, I was £1,800 away from losing everything I owned. And luckily one client paid me. Which kind of got me through that one month, which then kept me in there. But it went— it was difficult. I'm expecting it to be no different over the coming months, but we'll talk about that in a second.

What did your life look like at that point, by the way? Just quickly, because that's a real situation to be in, and some people might be in that situation now. So like, what did you— just to paint the picture. So Glenn, yeah, you nearly lost everything, as you said. Did you have kids at that point? Did you have a family? Did you have a house?

Absolutely. House, family, cars, the lot really. 27 people in the business. So overnight, nothing.

Where was your mind during that, through that? Do you know what I mean? Because I think that, that's, that's the most— that will be the most, um, the biggest burden for people right now. Yeah, mentally.

What, like, do you know what I mean?

Because yeah, what, where, where was your mind through that and how did you push through that? Obviously you got paid, great, but in that moment Where was your head? Like, what helped you get through that, do you think?

Yeah, good stuff. Look, I'll say in a second what I wish I hadn't have done.

Okay.

I did do a lot, I did do a lot of one thing, which I'll talk about in a second, which I'm not doing at the moment. But what got me through it was, is that I laced my boots every morning, going to war. That's how I saw it in my mind. Yeah, I saw it is that I got up, I did nothing else but getting to work, And I realized that I couldn't increase my brain capacity by the 40-50% that it needed to be to get through it. So the only way that I could do that is increase my work capacity. So I just, I just worked longer hours. I worked very hard, very long, trying to not panic. I was, and it was, uh, it was tough. I worked Saturdays, Sundays. I did anything and everything that needed to be done. I I turned myself into a credit controller. I turned myself into, well, I did everything from it, credit control, my finance, the absolute lot to try and save money. But also in hindsight with that, you know, nobody was exited in the respect of nobody, everybody was treated fairly. Everybody, you know, I kept a few with me. We had to almost rip the business up and start again within its markets to the point where we ended up working within self-employed commission-only salespeople. So actually, one of my testimonials I was reading the other day on my LinkedIn was with the RAC, and we were placing— we've gone from placing people at, you know, decent fees to £500 when they started and £500 a month down the line. It was quite tough, but we, we, we still started making money. I built a very good division. So from a mind point of view, what I would do differently is I couldn't control the market where it was. There's— I'm a little small person in the market, and I spent too much time worrying about it. Yeah. And for every minute that I spent worrying, I wasn't planning and actioning. So even when I look at it now from a mindset point of view, yeah, I'm analyzing, yeah, I'm looking at what we can do, but the only thing I can control is action and action.

Yeah, yeah.

All I can control. I spent too much time worrying about it. Look, you don't know your body and your brain's going to react, do you? You know, did I spend endless nights staring at the ceiling thinking, what the fuck's going on? How do I— yeah, I went to—

you have anyone— did you have anyone you could speak to at that point?

No. And do you wish you had?

Did you wish you had reached out to people?

Or— yeah, yeah, I, I think my, my, my name above the door mentality, which was probably led by ego rather than pride, yeah, probably forced me to actually maybe not search that person. And I had them available to me, which was worse. I think in hindsight, if I'd had a mentor, if I'd had someone who said, Glenn, think about it, you know, channel stuff. I had my wife at the time who didn't really understand, my parents didn't, and I didn't really have anybody around me with access to money either. So it wasn't a matter of— and by the way, I tried. Oh God, yeah, but everything got sold. All cars got sold. Everything that we could do to make this work, we made it work. And But I couldn't complain, Hishem. I couldn't complain about it because you can't complain when things are going brilliant. And then, you know, if things are going well, then you reap the benefits of it. If things go wrong, isn't that the time when you actually be a leader expected to do more?

Yeah, I love that.

But it was tough. It was something.

I think I know, I know you hear that advice a lot, but it's definitely helped me over the last couple of weeks, sort of You've got to sort of catch yourself when you're ending up, because you can so easily just end up in a sort of wheel of thinking and looking and focusing on what you can't control.

Yeah.

And you just got to get better at catching yourself at doing that because it's so easily done. But when you really can, when you really do focus on and realize that, or do focus on what you can control, it generally you do feel lighter when you realize that.

Well, you come out, you've got some element of success. Yeah. And we all know that feeling of doing something, getting a positive outcome. But I think when you're— so then if you're actioning something, even if it's just, I don't know, whatever it may be, but sitting and worrying about it and you can't control it, and what's the point of me lying in bed worrying?

Yeah. And then, but, and then, yeah, and I think the final thing on that, mate, is Anyone listening that is struggling right now, honestly, reach out for help and you will be surprised the amount of people that are willing to help.

Okay.

So that's really interesting. And then this has come up a few times actually, it was in one of the last podcasts I did that, that sort of experience actually then fueled the thought process of, well, hang on a minute, I'm definitely going to learn from that and make sure and ensure that, yeah, my eggs aren't all in one basket or one particular vertical because if we do end up going through some real adversity and we don't want to be at the mercy of the market where everything could stop overnight.

Yeah.

Did that— obviously then obviously you would go and say, did that then fuel that advocate group and other things?

Exactly what happened. So the advocate group specialises in FMCG, so search and selection into FMCG firms, food and drink, even—

How did you identify that? Just out of interest, was it again building relationships or using your network to speak to people and you knew people that wanted to start a recruitment business in FMCG market, they'd done it and then you were involved with them or?

We'd identified education and manufacturing and FMCG as the credit crunch was hitting. So once the pain was happening, I was just too slow. You know, being honest with you, if I'd done it 6 months earlier, it would have already happened.

Yeah.

We, so it was, so those two businesses conceptually were already in my mind. Well, if I look at, you know, milk for argument's sake, 8 years prior to me even setting the business up, I knew it was going to happen. I just did it too late. So I had to then put those to bed, build Aspium back up again, build it to the point where it can start being used from a cash cow point of view, keep my fingers crossed that the market didn't dip down into a double recession as such. And then, so The Advocate Group actually came about through the rejoining of an individual who used to work for me Left the business in the recession. Fortunately went working within a manufacturing recruiter that also specialized with FMCG. So there was a bit of luck there. There absolutely was. We got on well, Chris and I. We still do. I trained him in recruitment back in 2005. Well, I trained his skills. You can't train Chris's attitude. He's just one of those guys though. So almost he gets on the phone, you are listening to him. He sits in front of you.

Yeah. Yeah.

I love that. He's just an absolutely fantastic character. I wouldn't like to say he's better than me, but yeah, he is. I know he is. There's no doubt about it. He's very, very strong. So yeah, he had a skill set. He had a bit of a knowledge base. And we set the advocate group up in very early 2012. Once that was then set up and running, the only— the next step for me would have always been education, which is where Milk came about.

Yeah, awesome. So, okay. So let's talk about— I know obviously we said before this that you've obviously— obviously you're involved in all the businesses, but I know that you've been really actively involved in Milk Milk in recent years. So I know you said that you, obviously we agreed together that people get most value out of talking about that. So let's just talk about that for a second. So Milk's been going for how long now?

So originally for 4 years, but for the first 12 months it didn't trade, but I'll explain that. Because I had 2 other recruitment businesses, this is the one business that I had a bit of time to get to what in my opinion was be to get right.

Okay.

Not that all my experience has been leading up to this one moment type thing, but almost, yes. So I thought, look, let's research the market. I've never worked in education recruitment. Never worked.

Why did you identify that then?

Purely and simply because of market reasons. So one being, to give a bit more context, The Advocate Group and Aspirin are predominantly perm recruiters. Yeah. So not only did I want a recruitment business mix and have a temp market, yeah, I also wanted one that was recession-proof, credit crunch-proof. Obviously I didn't think about the pandemic-proof. You know, I suppose you can't think of everything, can you? Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So that was the idea. So that's what we identified. Plus we had an office in Liverpool, which is what I was working out of at the time. And, you know, Liverpool, a relatively insular market. So the idea being, if we can blueprint it in Liverpool and get it to work in Liverpool, then I think we've got a good chance of taking this into all the major cities throughout the UK.

Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

So that was the plan.

So, and then you said there that Let's just talk about, so it took you 12 months to like sort of what more the strategy and thinking about how you're going to execute and all these things. Yeah. So I guess let's just think about for a sec, cause I think I'm sure you've had different conversations and people ask for your advice or help or whatever, but I always say this. I think people are most worried and most fearful of taking the leap, taking that jump. Yeah. And again, think and worry about that first year in been in their living room or just starting their own recruitment business, right? So I guess you absorbing all that experience, over a decade worth of experience at Aspien, obviously Advocate Group, obviously you said it yourself, it's now, right, what, what have I learned from that that I'm going to make sure I do from day one in this business? So what were the things that you made sure that sort of that come out of that strategy period of the 12 months? What did you make sure that you did Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, straight away.

Aspen and the Advocate Group, although we created a brand, it was— it was an— our brand was an afterthought. So it was almost I building it, Chris building it, we come on board, we make some money, and then we'll talk about, you know, consultant attraction and what we're going to do and client attraction. And we'll use our sales ability to, to go and win business first and foremost, knowing that I was never going to work as a day-to-day consultants in the business. I wanted to create a brand that people really bought into. Yeah.

And if you haven't— just sorry to butt in there, just sorry to butt in, but just quickly, Milk— like, if you were to go and definitely go and check out Milk Education, but I think that's really cool that you said that because I think you've definitely delivered on that. Obviously, we'll talk about it, but I have no idea how that's then impacted the actual commercials and business. But on the face of it, it looks, it does look awesome. So that's pretty cool.

No, no, no, no, I appreciate hearing that. We've been through 4 brand changes over the past 4 years. So we have just, because not that I'm a meddler, but also in the same respect, I just think that if you're a forward-thinking company, shouldn't that be reflected in everything that you do? Yeah, and the evolution.

Yeah, so the first thing was brand first, not an afterthought.

Yeah, so which is, which is I hadn't done before, but I knew I had time, and I was lucky that I had time because I had other businesses which was paying my wages. So it allowed me, it allowed me to research the market. Look, I I knew I was entering a highly competitive, yeah, highly competitive, tied recruitment market where new schools are opening up every single day. So these individuals have already got relationships, it's already in place. So we had to have something which would make them say, hmm, that sounds interesting, let me sample what you're offering. Because otherwise, you know, we would never break into them. So the idea around the brand was to almost We are new. We're very new. There's no grades to this. We're not going to sound like we've been around for a long time. We're going to make it very, very obvious that you've never heard of us. So we could level of interest, and there's a lot more context to it. But that creation of the brand, I wanted people to really buy into whether you work for us, with us, or whatever it may be. That was the— I wanted that whole rewarding element to us.

How did you go about So was that the main thing that you focused on? Was that the main thing that was going to help your business be different and have a chance of— okay.

Yes and no. So yes is the answer, but it was then borne out of what was going to be the differentiator. You know, I think if I look back now at the Aspirian, the differentiator was me because I was going to get on the phone and sell.

Yeah.

Where the Advocate Group was concerned, our differentiator was our market knowledge, the name brand advocates to our clients. But where Milk was concerned, what is going to be the differentiator? And through my research, I realized that a lot of our competitors hadn't really taken the social media side of things as serious as other markets. So what I wanted to do is to create a brand in order to create a social media presence in order to attract candidates above our competitors, which give us that selling edge.

Yeah, I love that.

That was the idea.

So do Let me just ask you a really direct question and then I'd love to sort of dive into how you've gone about that and your learnings on that. Because I think now even more so, loads of people are talking about it, right? So I guess firstly, you deciding that and that being at the sort of forefront of your business strategy, how has that then impacted the business and you achieving the goals that you set out to in terms of taken up market share? Like, how did it actually help you?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, look, I think first and foremost is that because I didn't have the time to train trainee consultants because I never had the experience, it's allowed me to attract experienced recruiters out of my direct competitors.

So first thing, helped you hire internally? 100%.

Massively so, absolutely so. Second thing is it spawned several key selling points, which I said in relation to our candidate attraction. Which I didn't believe any of our competitors were doing to the level that I wanted to. And to give more detail to that, we're the most recommended education recruiter in the UK on Facebook. So whatever we're doing is right. Yeah, I call them trust ticks. So with schools, like businesses, but with schools, if you've been dealing with someone for 20 years, you know, to start using somebody else, you've got to feel like you would want to trust them from?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think we all think like that. You know, we talk about the word trust a lot within our business of what, whatever, how does our positioning evoke trust from that individual? Because if they trust you, they're more likely to want to work with you. So we wanted a brand that actually a client may trust before they even speak to us. So a lot of that came from throughout research, and I wanted something quirky, by the way. Because I didn't want heritage.

It's definitely quirky. Yeah, it is quirky, which I love.

Yeah, it is.

I think a lot of people don't back themselves to do that and follow through on being quirky or a bit different.

Yeah, no, I agree. And it was difficult for me to be on that premise because I was advocate group strong, you know, high level, especially from finance, accountancy background as well.

Yeah, quite stiff and we've always done it this way.

Absolutely. And the education market being very similar to that.

Yeah.

So I didn't want to come across as though we, you know, we were creating something gimmicky.

Yeah.

Because I didn't want that. But also, if you said to an individual, no, we've done it to, you know, have a social media presence.

Yeah.

One of the big insights, or the detail that we went into with this, was, is that we wanted to again evoke some form of positive response to our brand before it happened. So what we wanted is the name of the business to feel positive but also new at the same time. So we looked at words from primary school because my thought would be that someone's more likely to have a positive experience in primary school than secondary school. It's a lot easier in primary school, isn't it? And what within— and then looked at my age demographics of the individuals that I was selling to. So the age demographics that were people that we work with are 35, 40, and above. So I then wanted something that would respond well to them and make them feel quite positive. So it came from the actual old-school traditional milk bottles. So it's actually within our branding. So the idea was is that I had them at school, and when I first saw it, I thought, you know what, I remember them. So straight away, positive, trust, smiling. So quite marketing within this idea. And then we start to slip the idea, well, look, if the milk bottle represents, I don't know, our traditional values, maybe the milk can represent a fresh approach to recruitment. So we kind of coined that term and then, and then use that as a Quite a positive marketing.

No, I think you're bang on with that. I think that, and clearly because you actually thought about it instead of just went on Google and searched creative words for, I don't know, do you know what I mean? Just did that typical scenario. So I guess, okay, so let's just sort of talk a bit about, because I think it's safe to say, Glen, that a lot of recruiters or people thinking about starting their own recruitment business will agree with you that they do want to build a brand that's trusted and different and will know and want that to be part of their differentiators as a recruitment business. Yeah, and then I think it's the execution that's really challenging, right? So as you said, you've gone, the brand's gone through a number of iterations on how it's changed, blah blah blah, but I guess sort of real practical advice on then actually, it's a whole good thing you thinking about in your living room and doing all this plan, but then how did you go about executing this then, Glen? Like, how did you really make sure that that translated into the people you brought in and yeah, the brand actually delivered as to what the intention was.

Unlike my first business, I planned. Yeah, I know that sounds really, really simple and those recruiters say all the time, make sure you plan before you go home every single night, you walk in with your plan. This was actually the first business because I wasn't actioning a plan, I had to plan then for others and had to plan what that journey looked like So the level of detail that I went to— you said a statement a second ago, it sounds like you really thought about it. Okay, that is what our brand is actually meant to speak and say. So irrelevant of the name, my thought path is that if someone's going to be cynical about us, which they're going to be with a name like Milk, then they're going to want to open up things and turn things over and have a good look at us and try and find any form of cracks, which is what people do do, particularly when you're putting your neck on the line calling yourself something like Milk. So I wanted every single facet of our business to be thought about, even down to the point of the pens that we use in the office, which I know is a little bit, let's say, quite detailed, but it has to be thought of. You know, the number one people to us was consultants. That was our main aim, is to attract exceptional individuals to come and work with us. So the only way you can do that is by creating exceptional environments. And if you saw, you know, our offices and what we do, it's not quite 1990s where we're playing table tennis, although they do have them in our WeWork offices. But how I executed it was just an absolute— I just had to back myself. It was as simple as that. I'm—

did you get help from day one? Like, did you get involved in agency straight away, or like how?

All done in-house.

Really?

Yeah, it was all done in-house. It was all done with me. We had a creative sort of like copywriter, jack of all trades individual in the business at that point in time. We I've got a small team of 2 who've helped massively. So on the rebound, we've been exceptional. But they bought it, they understood it from day one. But no, when it first started, it literally came from the passionate idea to have something unique, but have it been perceived as unique from day one. I also didn't mind if people were like, milk, that sounds a bit stupid, because I knew that when they looked at us, because we thought about it so much, then it might make them think differently. So I think compared to what I did on the first time, the second time I think it got a little bit better with the advocate group. I think now where Milk's concerned, if I went back to day one, would I spend that little bit more time thinking about and planning the vision? You know, thinking about our values and what it would mean to people. I didn't do that with any other business bar Milk. I've subsequently gone back and done it. But even the thought down to the point of, you know, people have joined the business thinking they were joining the underdog, the underdog mentality, it's us against the world. We've kind of gone from underdogs, we're now trying to push towards that more trailblazers. Are we doing something different? Can we do something different? And trying to almost back to that mentality that I was involved with of knock on my door, 'Come and set up a new division.' New Zealand? Well, I don't know. Could we go to New Zealand? Why not try? Okay. So I hope that answers the question.

Yeah, no, that does. So just a bit of context then.

Yeah.

So how many people do you have in the milk business now? Obviously I know—

Yeah, good stuff. So we've seen a lot of growth over the past 12 months. So we went from 4 or 5 people—

And that was what, by year 2?

By year 3. So our fourth year type of— yeah, there's about 25 involved in the business at the moment. And in the past 12 months, we've gone from Liverpool, we've opened Manchester, Birmingham, and at the big end of— mid to end of February, we also opened up a North Wales office, which hasn't had its official opening because of where we are at the moment.

Okay, cool. So clearly then, so the first— so nearly literally pretty much the first 3 years Yeah, it's a real solid core nucleus.

Yeah.

And then we've gone for exponential growth, it seems like, over the last 12 months. Obviously, we're going to talk about the sort of rough patch right now and the challenges. But I guess, okay, so firstly, how much then out of your, let's say, overall business budget, or how much was you investing in marketing?

Yeah, I think because we were doing it in-house, it's probably very difficult to answer. However, again, because my time was not spent recruiting, and I think I'll come on to that again in a bit more detail, but because my time wasn't spent recruiting, I could invest time in that brand and the idea around it.

Okay, so you put all your resources into it. Okay.

Yeah, I did.

I did. All right. So how—

so could I just jump back in there?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go on, go on.

Sorry, I missed. But compared to the first business and the second business, probably 100% more time and money and effort was put into it because there was no— the aspirin, there was no value within brand. What we were doing begins with A, let's crack on. You know, the advocate group had a little bit more thought around it, and, you know, we established a strong brand. And then milk, the whole branding idea, but yeah, it was that branding lifestyle idea that you, you're joining an entity with a real passion and a real mission, a real will to make a difference, even to the point where we, you know, 18 months ago we turned the business into an eco-friendly recruiter.

What does that mean? I saw that.

Yeah, good question. So yeah, so our industry, with a name like Milk, we've got to be purposely different, of course. And our industry, it seems that merchandise is definitely something that they— everybody will be giving to their schools. So a key way to win business, you go for a client visit, you take some form of merchandise with me. If the fact that everybody else is doing it and it's kind of seen that we have to as well, as I blatantly want to do it differently in and around that time period, yeah, we're dealing with schools. I just think you've got to— just in general, I think there's a corporate and social responsibility. I think, yeah, I think you've got to do good things. I genuinely do. So our whole— we started looking at the ideas of what are we doing for charity, what are we doing around us, We're dealing with, with, with children, so there's definitely a humanity element. Yeah, I, I've got, well, Ferdinand, I've got another dog coming, so there's an animal element. I'll explain context to this. Um, one of them a rescue, which has had another rescue who's with us in a few weeks. And, um, and obviously the eco-friendly elements. So all our merchandise is eco-friendly. So every single bit of merchandise then had a message. Yeah, when we're giving it to schools, we could talk about plastic water bottles and talk about the use of single water, you know, single-use plastics. So it gives us a bit more context, plus yeah, there's no real— it just adds more partnership and feel to what we do. Yeah, it gives us something else to speak to schools about up and above. Good recruitment. We took that one step further internally. We have no plastic water bottles in the office. We, you know, little things, everything's recycled from a paper perspective. You know, we try our best to reduce that carbon footprint as much as we can. In fact, we've just come up for a Recruiter Award because of it as well. We've just been shortlisted.

Yeah, that's awesome.

By the likes of Airheads, which is good.

Yeah, so my question was going to be, and you're sort of just talking about it there, is like, so the vision, the value, the brand, really sort of thought about things in detail, and as you said, that's had a real impact. How do you then— I think the challenge that recruitment businesses owners will have, or leaders in recruitment businesses will then, like, how do you then translate that into, or how do you then make sure that that resonates and is part of your people's DNA? Do you know what I mean? It's all good things saying it, and you've, and you thinking about it, it's your business.

Yeah.

But how have you then made sure that you've instilled that into the people within your four walls and your employees? Yeah, even, even more so when you're opening up offices nationally. Like, how do you make sure— how do you make— yeah, how do you actually instill that into your people?

Yeah, good question. I think, I think it makes it easier based on the kind of people who want to join us because they're joining us because of the brand. They join us.

That's definitely a factor.

It is, yeah, because they're looking at us thinking, do you know what, if I, if I had all those key selling points and that sort of positioning and brought that to my schools, I'm going to win more business because of that. That was the key part. Not only that, I'm going to generate competitive candidates up above my competitors, then that's going to make a difference. So that's, that's—

so, okay, so the first part is the people that actually wanted to come into the business.

Yeah.

One part of the sort of motivation was, Glenn, I've been seeing what you guys have been doing, seems really interesting. So that, okay, that, that makes sense. So you're already— yeah, that already had people in their mentality that this could, yeah, this is why I want to join. So that helps.

I think it also helps as well is that I'm still massively, I'm not being arrogant here, it's not all about me of course, but I'm still massively involved in the business. I'm day to day, I mean, you know, I do, I'm a bit of an odd one who doesn't sleep enough. Even when I go down to Birmingham, it's a 2-hour drive, but I'm getting there 4, 6 o'clock So I'm getting in ridiculously early, working long hours.

But so when you say you're involved, what's your position? I'm assuming you're not on the phones, or are you?

No, no, not in relation to a day-to-day recruitment point of view, but in relation to training, one-to-ones, okay, the development of the individual.

So yeah, so you can really ensure that these people instill the values that you know are required to make Milk as what it needs to be to Stand out. Okay.

Absolutely. And look, it is more challenging when there's such a distance, you know, from the Wirral to Birmingham, of course, you know. But one of the things, because it's been within mindset from day one that we don't want the brand to dilute based on its, based on its growth, seeing that the brand is the thing that got us there in the first place, you know, we've been doing regular scenarios where we've been, we've been having group and business catch-ups, you know, group meetings in their own positioning of the business. More recently, clearly with what's happened in the market, we've been doing a hell of a lot of training. Yeah, very much so. But I think the appetite of the individuals who work for the business, because the understanding of the differentiator that it is, has certainly supported that. But we're very conscious of it, we're very conscious, and we're, you know, the brand values of who we are people like them, people believe them.

How do you then measure this? How do you then measure people are acting in line with the values? Out of interest, like, do you do anything interesting on, like, because obviously typically it's, Glenn, if you build this, this is what you get, right? But just out of interest, then, if you really thought about this, do you do anything to reward and motivate your employees in line with the values that you have?

Yeah, good question. So look, our career development plan is based on things like testimonials, recommendations from candidates and clients.

Nice.

You can't get them unless you're delivering our values. So even one of our— one of the parts of it is that we've got something that our first call agreements, which we call Friends of Milk, that is the exclusive agreement to work with us. It would be impossible to almost not—

wait, you call, you call your exclusive agreement Friends of Milk? Yeah, I love that.

So it's a little bit warmer. And I think that's what we've learned through this as well, is that, look, it's recruitment, of course it is, but we've tried to humanize it as much as possible. You know, we're dealing with schools, we're dealing with kids, we're dealing with— you know, I understand why there might be fear of using another recruiter because, well, what is their compliance like? You know, do they work to DFE guidelines? Do they do more? I don't know. I'll stick to what I know, which I get. So we had to really almost, you know, go and try and shake up that market. And look, we know we're near there. We know we're near where we want to be. Of course we're not. But the instill of brand values. Yeah, look, we— I believe that people should be promoted based on delivering, based on outcomes. But also within that, you don't want someone, let's say, I don't know, driving through your business who really was some form of crazy maverick renegade who did it their way, and then, yeah, yeah, all of a sudden you've got a team of maverick renegades, and it could be quite tough that way.

Yeah.

So yeah, we're just even implementing something at the moment where, well, look, these guys share the beliefs of the business, even if they, even if some of them are a little bit more, not skeptical, that's probably the wrong word to use, but it's a, it's a kick key selling point. Let me just quote and sell to people anyway. The brand values and the family elements of what we've tried to, to achieve has brought a warmth to the company, and people do like that. And I think schools then like that warmth, and people like, like doing business with us. They enjoy doing business with us.

So a real common question, particularly more business leaders and recruiting business owners send me, is Hishem, I'm at that 4 head mark, 5 head mark, 8 head mark, can't get past 10. Keep hiring a couple of people, then back to normal, back to sort of original numbers. So I guess you can talk about all 3 businesses and learnings, but I guess just really interested in that sort of year of growth where people really struggle to get those sorts of numbers. And of course, it's not all about headcount, which I'm sure a lot of people will be learning right now. Yeah, headcount is vanity. Bottom line sanity, right? We hear that a lot. So I guess, like, how did you, how did you approach that? I'm assuming you was in a good position where you was really focusing on training development, which helped. But how did you transition the business and how did you achieve that?

Yeah, really good question. Look, that's the part where I would have to say I probably made the most mistakes. I think the idea, the mindset originally was bring on experience, that will push me through, which has worked. It has, to a point.

Experienced education recruiters?

Yeah, experienced education, or even within the advocate group across the board, we've been very much experienced recruiters. It does bring its own difficulties, it absolutely does.

What's the most common challenge when you've experienced and taken on experienced recruiters?

I think when you bring in on a top performer who, and it kind of goes against it, but you bring in on top performers delivered within the previous company and you've got certain systems and processes that also works very, very well for yourself, trying to mold that and manage that can be quite difficult. Because before you know it, you've then got an office with people doing very different things.

Yeah.

And then you start seeping away from the actual culture and brand and engagement you've got, particularly when then you start bringing on new, let's say, more junior people.

Yeah.

What we didn't hit off, of which we're very close, and this is what our next steps are, I started with no recruitment experience. I started as a, you know, raw graduate. I think it's very difficult to replace those first couple of years where you're willing to bleed out of your eyes to make it work, which you are, aren't you? Naively so, because you just, you throw everything at it. And, you know, I think if I had my time again, I would have, I would have done one or two things where that's concerned, which would then help to understand, let's say, people are going through that growth decide what you want first. Is this going to be a lifestyle business? Or are you going to build this because of XYZ? If it's lifestyle, then just focus on that lifestyle of getting them, getting to the level that you want to be at and protect it. If you're going to build it into the biggest business or whatever your personal goals are, you've got to start laying those foundations from day one. And that's got to be within training and development. That's something that I have. I'm not saying I'm I completely missed out on it. But we have used external trainers, Hannah Keep being one of them, Mike Wormsley, who I don't know if you know Mike, Mike originally trained me in recruitment. So yeah, look.

So don't, yeah, this come up last time where don't have the mindset of, I'll invest in people like Hannah and other people when we get to 10 people, or it's got to, yeah, as you said, lay the foundations.

I think within your plan. Yeah, get it within your plan from day one. Write that training program, get, you know, get training to almost be the integral part of the development of your business. Have we got that right? I think we've done it okay. I think our next big step is to get that, to get that perfect, then we can attract those top grads, those individuals who would run through walls like myself, and train them effectively.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, most certainly.

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. And then I guess just what come up for me, because I was in a small smaller business and like if you're talking about grads and attracting sort of people with not as much experience or even on the experience end as a small grown business, I think sometimes it can be hard to think or hard to know how to structure career progression.

Yeah.

Because do you know what I mean? You're like, well, what else can I offer? Or it's not the typical route of if you're a bigger business, do you know what I mean? So I guess Training development, as you said, so part of that is you attracting people that know sort of where they are now and where they can get to and what they need to do. So I guess, what's career progression look like and how have you structured that for your people?

Yeah, good work. And I think I get that's being difficult because how quick do you get someone to start as a trainee to start billing very well, then the next step, do they become director within 18 months, a year? Yeah, you know, not everybody—

would you offer that?

Yeah, yeah, not everybody can be. I think We— so MILK spend a lot of time on the whole personal goal setting, personal development, what actually is going to get that individual out of bed every single day. Yeah, there is a career development path which I'll explain in a second, but I think the best thing is to find out what does someone want, and if it's a parachute or whatever it may be, if they've got that drive and are willing to sacrifice to get it, let's hone in on that in some way. You know, our extra, you know, we have a happiness strategy within the business where we've looked at every facet of what we do to try and make it as comfortable yet challenging, of course, because we're in recruitment, for God's sake. But the job makes you, the industry makes it challenging for you. Don't make your environment challenging. Make your environment brilliant to be in that everybody wants to be in it. And then let the job put the pressure on. But to get there, I think for anybody to move up a path, I think you've got to put some form of stage gate billings. They've got to be performing. Yeah, can't be any other place. I think not only have they got to be performing, what we do as well is also make sure that they're performing through certain criteria. And that criteria will be personal behavior patterns. In other words, pardon my French, but they're not a dickhead. Yeah. And then the second side of things, making sure that they're sticking to the process that we've all agreed is the ultimate process. Yeah. So if someone, it triggers certain, certain levels of billings based over— they've got to do it over 6 or 12 month time periods because I think you've got to restrict that growth, um, to a point of course. Let them then— and we do— you come and present, you show me now what have you done to trigger not only hitting the growth but to demonstrate that you can do 'Sell retainers, do this, do this,' based on outcomes. I think that, I don't— I think if you do it that way, then I don't think you're ever going to get yourself where someone within a very short period of time wants to take over, who wants to be the next director. But also show people the path to do so. Yeah, show them the path.

So yeah, I think it's what you just said mixed with, 'What do you want, Glenn?' Yeah, 'What's important to you? What do you want out of this recruitment career?' Yeah, couldn't agree more. Making sure you do that, because then you can— and then you're equipped with knowing what to put in place and knowing what to motivate people with, along with the deliverables and the outcomes that need to be measured.

But do not talk about it once a year. Do not talk about it once a quarter. Talk about it every single Monday on a catch-up. So I'll give you a prime example, and this may come across a little bit harsh, but I had an individual in my business who was actually our top biller for ASPIEN back end of 2018. When we broke down as a review what, you know, what she'd done and the outcomes of what she'd done, It was good, but she was better than that, a hell of a lot better than that, and nothing to show for it. So she devised, we want to buy a house next year. So we put certain things into place where not only did I expect her to buy a house, if she didn't buy a house, I would be reviewing her employment within the business. It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but also she knew it was deadly serious. Not only did she have to be a top biller, but that extra level of incentive. And we do things, we've got a mortgage advisor company who come in once every 6 months, 2 or 3 times a year. Anybody who needs mortgage advice, that's one of our incentives. We'll pay for that if you're buying a house. Try and give some form. There's no point spending a few years in this industry and having nothing apart from mental scars, probably a few nice suits and some great holidays. But yeah, no. So we've looked at a number of little things. We've got savings schemes, we've got a financial advice company, coming in again, giving understanding of money, how interest rates work, and etc., etc., which should be taught at school in my opinion, but that's a completely separate conversation. But yeah, we spend a lot of time on personal goals. I would spend more time on personal goals than KPIs.

Okay, I love that. So let's talk a bit about today then, Glenn. I mean, you're in the education market. Yeah, Jesus.

Yeah.

So I guess let's just put this stuff that we can't control aside for a second. Let's think about what you can control, right?

Yeah.

How have you— so firstly, have you had to furlough your staff or what decisions have you made on that front?

Yeah, across the group we're about 60/40. So it's probably good to speak about the group as well. The advocate group hasn't been fully affected, probably about 12%, 15%.

I mean, I'm assuming, might be completely wrong, but obviously with yesterday's announcement saying if you can't work from home, go to work, might open up even more opportunities from the manufacturing standpoint and stuff.

Absolutely, most certainly. And look, we were 10, 11 days before shutdown happened already working from home. It was already happening, looking through our systems and ability— excuse me— we can work from home. Where milk's concerned, yeah, look, we didn't sack anybody, we didn't get rid of anybody. We panicked originally because, you know, when it started happening, nobody was sure But again, I used a bit of the experience that I'd learned back in 2008, 2009. I think I put a post out on LinkedIn, if one goes, we all go. So we kind of created an internal siege mentality within the business. Again, that underdog, we're in this together type thing. But we have seen, we've seen a massive drop in revenue. There's no doubt about it. But we're confident that schools will go back.

Yeah. Okay. So one of the most common things that have come up from the live podcasts that I've been doing and different things has been Glen, how have you been keeping your staff on furlough, not on furlough, motivated?

Yeah, good question.

How have you been doing that?

I won't show you the pictures. I think my fancy dress quiz which happened on Friday night was the starting point, and I won't show you the pictures. But anyway, look, we've had a— I'm lucky that I've got a really good team. I think that I can genuinely say, and this isn't me being heartfelt or selling it, I'm proud of them. They've been unbelievable across 3 businesses. There's been an insatiable appetite for training. There's been a— they are fully aware, because I've told them that when we come out of this, this is the easy part right now, let's be honest with you. When we come out of this, we are at war. There's no doubt about it. This is going to be very difficult.

And difficult how?

I just think there's 3 separate businesses. Let's just focus on Milkweb.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, nice.

Where Milk's concerned, it's going to be difficult purely and simply because we're the new, relatively new entrants to the market. Although we're grabbing market share, winning new business could be quite difficult. However, candidates are king. They always have been anyway. Our candidate care strategy, you know, we send birthday cards, we send thank you cards, we really You know, we try and roll out that celebrity service all the time. The recruitment consultancy with the most candidates and the most, you know, relevant candidates are the ones who are going to make the most money. So why I think it's going to be difficult is that there's a sharpening of the tools or the sharpening of your weapons, which could be tough. You know, spend a couple of months not doing anything, expecting then to walk back into the game match fit I don't think that's going to be the case. I think that could be quite difficult, original, the first couple of weeks. But I think it's going to be difficult because everybody's going to be leveraging relationships. And why wouldn't you be doing— well, you'd want to leverage positive and leverage every single relationship that you've ever had. So I think the market's going to be difficult because it's going to come back with a, a bit of a bang, and competition's very, very high anyway of very well-established businesses. More importantly, if you're slipping behind in relation to upgrading and upskilling yourself, and while your competition is actually moving forward, that, that could be the biggest difficult thing. If we're not ready for this when these doors and shutters open, it, you know, it does make you think we're up against it anyway because we're the new guys. So could we make it easier for ourselves by getting one step ahead?

So have you, have you started to construct a return to work plan then?

Yeah, yeah, it's already started to happen. So we've been bringing people off furlough almost in a slow staggered way over the past 2, maybe 3 weeks now. Okay, the idea being our candidate care strategy to really throw our arms back around and get back to speaking to our candidates for support reasons. We were doing it anyway but I wanted more people out there doing it. So there's a bit of a risk involved in it, but I don't think there is. I think people will have— hopefully.

No, I think, I think you're right. It was someone submitting the question on the live podcast, so we didn't— I thought it was a great question. It was like, there clearly is going to be a scramble of talent. There's going to be way more talent on the market. There's going to be talent, a lot more talent going directly. There's going to be, there's just going to be way more talent on the market. And if you like, what can you do to ensure that you are the recruiter of choice in your market. It's exactly that what you're talking about. You want to give yourself the best possible chance of being Glenn the recruiter, the Glenn is the recruiter that I've been told to speak to.

Yeah.

And if you're not doing anything to, I don't know what you need to be thinking about that, because if you're not, you're naive.

I couldn't agree more. But you know, is it Einstein's theory of insanity? Doing exactly the same thing and expecting different results. So seeing that it's now flipped the opposite way, the market is so crazily different, then why would we think doing the same thing will get a different result or get even the same result? So my thought path being this: yes, I agree there's going to be more talent on the market, but I'm not too sure where schools are concerned. It was tight anyway. Anybody, you know, anybody near retirement age, probably based on, you know, not what the virus has been targeting, but who are more at risk, might be least likely to want to go back into an environment where there could be—

Yeah, that's true, that's true, yeah.

Schools are going to need more staff due to the staggering of potential dinner times, the staggering of start times, or the breaking down of classes to enable some form of better social distancing. So I think there's a, I want to say a panic within schools, but because nobody quite knows exactly what's going to happen at the moment. However, yeah, I think there's going to be pressure from schools to be bringing on more individuals to support the uncertainty of what's going to happen next. Okay. So yeah, it's going to be tough. There's going to be a lot of people not want to work within the market. There's going to be a lot of people not wanting to go back, full stop.

Yeah, yeah. How do you, as we sort of come to the end here then, Glenn, how, obviously you've been in the recruitment industry for a good while, so I guess, how do you see this impact? What's your sort of thought process of impact in the industry and your competitors and just recruitment as a whole? How do you see this whole experience and journey that we're all going through impact the recruitment industry?

And look, you know, it's I think it's going to hit it very hard. I genuinely do. You know, if we go back to 2008, 2009, it was hit hard. However, I think if you're upskilling, upgrading, consciously aware, really pushing on the candidate side of things and trying to get ahead now, I think you're going to be in a better position. I use this analogy, and I don't know if it's the best analogy, but And I do see things about going into battle, and I've never been in the army or anything, but I do think, see things about going into battle and war, but I don't know, the weakest are more likely to die first or exit the industry first. So just make sure that's not you. Just make sure that you've got, you know, you think about every facet of the business. We will bounce back, the industry will bounce back, there's no question about it. I think as a country, we're very pragmatic within our approach. Who knows what's going to happen? But, you know, I think it's the greatest industry in the world. I genuinely do. I couldn't— I've got 2 kids, one at 13 and one at 7, and if any of them end up working in recruitment, I'd be very proud. I really would. I think that, yeah, but I think also to get through this as well, I think you're gonna have to be a very good recruiter, and that's only gonna also then spawn you know, an increase in excellence and increase in standards. I don't want that. Let's have an increase in standards. Let's hope it doesn't spawn people doing it just for cheaper to just get through doors. Let's just hope people, you know, one of our big, big pushes as well is value-add. What more can we bring to our schools? What more can we add? How can we support them even further to the point where I'm even thinking about that from a consultant point of view? So how is it going to affect us? I don't know. I think it's going to be tough. I think if I was speaking to an individual I'd be saying to them, go and train, retrain, go and find out what you're very good at, recognize it, and plan to do more of it.

Love that. Okay, last two questions. What are you most excited about, Glenn, to do or have or experience post-COVID?

Most excited about in what respect?

Just in professional, personally, what are you most excited to do when we come out of this?

Yeah, do you know what? I've missed the team, fella. I have missed it. I've missed being in the office. I have. I, I, I— and, and this was what— even when I worked for somebody else as well, as I love the— I love a recruitment office environment. Yeah, I think there's nothing more exciting than walking through an office where people are making money from a phone. Yeah, the computer and the— and the minds and I'm excited to be back. I am genuinely excited to be back with the team. So I think external of that, pubs, restaurants, but mainly getting back into the office, getting back into the office, seeing the guys and getting on it and taking this business to the next step. Awesome.

So last question, you can answer it with a phrase, a word, a sentence, whatever comes to mind.

Okay.

If Glenn could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen, they've taken your advice, they'd implement it tomorrow, what would you say to the people?

A one word or a sentence?

Whatever comes from, yeah, it can be a sentence, a word, a phrase.

Yeah, good stuff. Look, nobody likes working the long hours, nobody likes making the tough calls, nobody likes BD. Turn that into your superpower. Literally just embrace, do the things that people don't like doing and don't just do them, embrace them to the point like you are playing for Man United or you're the next Beyoncé. Take control of it because you're going to probably be doing it for a long time within your life. So either mourn about it or use that as your strength. Fully engage yourself into the industry. There's committed, very committed, extremely committed, and then recruitment committed, which is all the way down here. Just give it that level of commitment, and I guarantee if you did that over a time period, I think it's very difficult not to be successful. But you've got to give a level of commitment that you don't even think exists and just keep at it. That's what I would say.

I love that. Glenn, it's been an absolute pleasure, mate.

Thank you very much. Thank you.