Good To Great Leadership, Winning BD Strategies & How To Be An Effective Director with Matt Jones

I'm a big believer in being a genuine SME, really immersing yourself in that space, um, so that after a few years or so in building, building, building that network, providing a good service, the work's already done for you because you've, you've built those relationships over time, you've provided that good service, and people are coming back to you with referrals and recommendations.

So welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Matthew Jones from Exceed. So you've always been a perm recruiter?

Yeah, other than I think the first 2 months of my career where I was put onto Salesforce recruitment in France on a contract basis.

And he's always been in the data space, and for the last 2 years he's been in a hands-off role where he now has 4 direct reports and is managing 29 people across these teams. He's been part of a business that went through a significant business event. He's now getting direct access to amazing commercial opportunities like reporting directly to the CEO and COO on how the business is performing. You name it, we talk about it in this conversation where Matt really breaks down how he's got to where he's got to. Why has he been able to always continuously progress his career in an upward trajectory? And then, like you said, just, just be curious. So like the weekly things you do now, what, what do you report on a weekly basis?

Um, so yeah, the starting point will be, let's get into this week's episode.

Matt, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much for having me.

No, really looking forward to this. I always love sitting down with people that have been in the industry for, you know, you've been in the industry for a decade, just done. Yeah. And you've, you've built, you know, an amazing career at Xceed where you've been there for 8 and a half years. So I'm always interested to speak to people about, you know, how that journey's been, um, how you've continued to evolve, improve, because You know, I think particularly in today's day and age, staying at one company for nearly, you know, 9 years, yeah, it's becoming less and less common.

Massively. We're quite lucky, actually, we've got quite good tenure. Um, so I'm part of the furniture but not the whole set. There's some good tenure there.

So let's give everyone some immediate context. We're just saying, done about 10 years in recruitment, we're going to focus on this, this journey that you've been on with Xceed. So you've always been a perm recruiter?

Yeah, other than I think the first 2 months of my career where I was put onto Salesforce recruitment in France on a contract basis. And yeah, very quickly moved on.

And your world for a long time, although this isn't the only type of like market that you're involved in now, is— has been like data science.

Correct. Yeah, yeah.

So let's just break this down, mate. We've got the, the career highlight reel, mate, going, going through here, right? So from— so you obviously started as an individual contributor at Xceed, so 2015 Yeah, did 95K. 2016, 199K. 2017, 180K. 2018, which was your best year, 385. Yeah, whilst managing 3 or 4 people. Then 2019, the 320. 2020, 230. 2021, 228, up until August. But in August 2021 was your last deal.

How was it?

Because, um, for the last 2 years you've been you know, continuing to evolve yourself, um, in this like non-billing role. Yeah, a lot more of a strategic role. So now you are the head of, um, basically the head of UK Perm. Yeah, so you basically manage— again, let me know if I get anything wrong— so you have 4 direct reports, they're all like associate directors. Yep, they report to you. Got 4 different disciplines: data, cloud, software, product. And then there's 29 recruiters around about in these teams.

Yeah.

So that, that is the division that you're responsible for.

Yep.

And you, uh, report like directly upwards into the, like, the C-suite.

Yeah.

Uh, and then 2022, so then now we get talking about net fee income, which is obviously going to be a term that you're— you would have been a lot more familiar with in the last couple of years. 2022, uh, NFI for like your, like, ecosystem, 4 million, and then this year should be around 2.5.

Yeah, yeah, uh, we'll probably finish on about 3, I reckon.

Um, cool. So a lot, a lot to unpack, I think.

Yeah, it's a good summary.

Yeah, I'm really, I'm really interested to talk to you about this journey that you've been on, on like being a biller to then like having to report directly to the CEO, COO, talking about the growth, looking at EBITDA and profit and these things. So let's start with the million-pound question. What, what do you believe are the common characteristics and traits that make up a top-performing recruiter in today's market?

Yeah, good question. As you said, I'm going to have a lot of bias towards perm recruitment, um, because that's where I've spent 99% of my career. Um, and I think in perm as well as contract, but perm even more so, I'm a big believer in being a genuine SME. Um, so really understanding the market that you recruit in, and that's not just understanding the technologies, watching loads of YouTube videos about what you're actually going and recruiting— that obviously helps— but really immersing yourself in that space, um, so that after a few years or so in building, building, building that network, providing a good service, um, really understanding the community that you're recruiting in, the work's already done for you because you've, you've built those relationships over time, you've provided that good service, and people are coming back to you with referrals and recommendations. So I think that, that helps stand out in the crowds. Um, you know, you can showcase that in terms of events and webinars and podcasts, but ultimately it's a people business. We're speaking to candidates, we're speaking to clients day in, day out, and the more you can understand what this person does on a day-to-day in terms of their job and what they're doing, or from the client side, what they're actually looking for, that just increases your credibility and increases your personal brand. So that, that for me is the main one. Um, there's all the, the normal stuff about how hard people are working and the organizational skills behind it. Um, I think what is probably forgotten about is this is a service-led industry. Um, maybe not to the extreme of the client is always right and putting them on a pedestal, but definitely providing that good service. So I always have a soft spot for hiring people internally for our teams that have worked in catering or worked in a bar or hospitality of some sort. Obviously sales would be great because they get that. Um, so yeah, I think that the SME part for me, that's, that's how I carved out my career. That's where I see a lot of our top billers have genuinely built their brand within it, understand the space and are passionate about the space. Um, but those other bits around organization, how hard people are working, that's obviously important as well.

Curious just to ask you, I, I really, um, I, I really agree on the SME piece. It's something that, yeah, I've continued to really delve myself, like, really lean into the last, you know, 3, 4 years on the recruitment side. With that being so important to you, how— like, always curious to hear people's take on, like, when you're hiring someone, how long do you say it takes to become a true SME?

Yeah. How long is a piece of string? Um, realistic time, I think 2 to 3 years if we're talking about cashing in on being an SME and utilizing that network. Um, yeah, I think, I think from my experience and people that I've seen, 2 to 3 years is a good time where you start to really see the, the fruits of the labor that you've put in for those few years. But it doesn't take long to get those, you know, if you, if you speak to one candidate and you can come across passionate and interested and knowledgeable about what they're talking about, that one person, the very first person you speak to could well go and give you the recommendation or referral you're looking for. Um, so yeah, I think you could get too bogged down in being an SME and researching and getting stuck into all sorts of, uh, reading and Wikipedias and YouTubes about what you do. If you do that on the side and you want to go and further yourself in your market, fantastic. Um, but yeah, I think that to really see the rewards of it, it's a good 2-3 years.

No, I think it's just important for people to hear that. Yeah, because it is— it probably takes longer than people Yeah, I'm sure.

I mean, we've seen a lot of people that go put onto a desk, maybe had a limited knowledge about it beforehand, and then try and spend weeks and months trying to really read and research about it and not getting the fruits back from it necessarily straight away. But being an SME has its plus points in different time frames as well. You can get the plus points straight away because you can see, as I said earlier, you can see the benefit of speaking to someone and understanding that space and what that comes back to. But what I'm also emphasizing is that Being an SME is really understanding the network, the, the market that you're recruiting in, and not just about the skill set. And that's a longer one, that, that takes a good couple of years.

So you saying— okay, that's really interesting. So you're saying— I really like the way that you— how you've broken down the timeline. So in the short term, if I'm listening to this right now, I'm in my first year in recruitment, and I, I really buy into the fact that I should be perceived as an SME in my in my niche, the short-term benefits should be that I can understand a lot more of the conversations I'm having day to day, which can mean, you know, I can ask better questions or I can come across, you know, more knowledgeable. But then you're saying the, the longer tail benefits are if I speak to a data scientist, not only can I understand what a typical day looks like for Matt the data scientist, I can also go when Matt says, oh I've been running into this problem at the moment, um, and yeah, there's not many other people in my team that have that experience. You can then go, Matt, yeah, I know this other person that has been in your shoes and they're a couple years ahead, let me connect you with them.

Definitely that, it's definitely the connecting dots. But I think that the million-dollar question, whether it's a candidate or a client that we get every day, is what's the market like? And if you're newer to it and you're not an SME and you're in the first year of recruitment even it's really hard to know because you don't have as much information, or you don't have as much data to go on to effectively answer that question. So you probably waffle your way through it. But if someone says to you, I'm on X salary, do you think that's a fair reflection? Unless you've spoken to enough people and you understand what the market looks like, it's really hard to give a really detailed answer to that. Yeah, um, but yeah, you're right. I think the first part is being an SME and understanding what a candidate does, what a client is looking for in that job spec, and also being more effective in your job. If you understand the skill set, you're more likely to hone in and only speak to a few people instead of having to speak to a long shortlist to go through and then whittling it down and actually not finding the right person anyway. So the deeper, the deeper you can go, the earlier the better, because you're going to be more effective actually doing the job and placing people. But in terms of seeing the longer fruits, fruits of it and the hard work that you've done, that does take a couple of years. Yeah.

So just to paint a picture then on like your role now in terms of what you— I know you said it changes a lot.

Yeah.

So again, you know, correct me if any of this isn't right, but some of like the, the core pillars that will often find, uh, that would often find in your diary. So you have on Mondays, you normally always have your one-on-ones with your ADs.

Yep.

Um, 2 to 3 days of the week, you might find yourself with key clients or speaking to potential key customers, but involved on the the, the client side. Coaching across all levels, so really getting your hands dirty on just helping the people in this division. Um, internal headhunting, so actually working then on, you know, growing the division by attracting great people. Uh, working with, with marketing, maybe around like events, different things you have going on. And then you've then got strategic objectives that you're involved in. You might be influencing or have ideas around maybe the, the company's BD strategy for your division. And then you're also then like fully exposed to all of the commercial side, the net fee income, the cash flow, new business value. And this is something that you then have to report to the COO in terms of how you're tracking against budget, EBITDA, P&L. And how often do you do that?

Uh, well, weekly at the moment. Weekly? Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that fair?

That's good.

Yes, it's a lot. It's a big job, sick. Um, yeah, I think, I think the other, the other bit that's not on there that's really hard to to define is anything that's quite reactionary. Um, and that, that was the biggest struggle for me going from a, I suppose, a, an individual contributor, and even my role as a billing manager, um, to then being hands-off and just having to prioritize and make sure— as you said there, that's a long list of stuff to go through. So it's taken me a while to, to get to grasp of where I should spend my time, how I should divide up my weekly, monthly, daily calendar. But there's a huge portion of my time that could, and is still at the moment, quite reactionary to, I don't know, can you review these terms for me? Or, um, take aside the coaching bits, I think that, that is part of the job that happens on a day-to-day basis. But getting pulled into a meeting that was something that was completely unexpected, whether it's, um, I don't know, something around invoicing or something that's not happened, that, that, that is a big chunk of my time. And, you know, I'm learning how to deal with that better so I'm not so reactionary. I can take a step back and be a bit more strategic and, and prioritize the jobs I think are going benefit of this leverage. Exactly. Yeah.

Okay, so let's just dive straight in here. I think I want to focus on just this evolution that you've been on in terms of like being a leader, being a commercial leader, you know, having these important— like the fact that I said to you, didn't I, that, you know, weekly reporting to the CEO on P&L, what's happening, all that, like that's, that's great exposure. And like there'll be so many lessons and learnings that you're, you're taking uh, from that. So first thing that I'm really curious to get your take on: what does effective management— managing down look like? So you've got 4 direct reports, and I'm sure you get this stuff that they're saying, so-and-so is this, so-and-so could be doing better at that. And you can't— you might, you might have like individual moments on like the coaching, but really, for you to— in order for you to be effective yeah, in your seat, you have to have those effective lines of communication for your ADs to then, you know, pass on any— like, yeah. So talk to us a bit about that. Like, what did you— firstly, what did you find difficult about that? Because that, that is quite an interesting skill set or something to get better at. What did you find difficult about that to start with?

Yeah, my first role managing managers was actually before this role that I'm doing at the moment, so I did have a little bit of exposure to it. And managing one manager was a hell of a lot easier than those as those reports got bigger and bigger. Um, I, I think A lot of, well, I suppose a lot of it's down to accountability. So if someone says they're going to do something, whether it's the consultant to their manager or manager to me, and back down as well, right? We're all held accountable to each other and we say we're going to do what we said, sorry, we do what we said we were going to do. A lot of it's around fact-finding. So this person's really struggling with BD. What does that mean? What are they actually doing? What is their structure? What is their plan? Oh, they're doing this between this particular time. Taught me through it, how they've actually gone through it. So I think if I can treat these, have the conversations that I would do with a consultant the same way that I would with an AD, everyone's got the same goal, everyone wants to, to achieve. So if I can have those same conversations, it allows them to know what sort of conversation I would be having and have the same ones back. But then a lot of it is around the goals. And like I said, so the fact-finding of what is actually going on, if someone's struggling or someone's doing really well and we want to replicate that elsewhere. Do, do the fact-finding, understand what we're looking for, but then set really clear metrics and goals behind that. So yeah, if we take my weekly one-to-ones with the ADs, for example, sitting down with them, going through individuals in their team, what we're tracking, pipeline, everything else.

So what's the agenda? Sorry, it's the bottom, but like, what's the agenda for those? Because I think that'd be helpful. So like the weekly one-on-ones with the ADs, what does the agenda look like?

Yeah, so we'll start with last week. So a review of the week before, um, we use OneUp. Um, so yeah, that's the starting point. It's right in front of me. Um, you know, go through the individuals in the team. How did they get on? What was the struggles? What was good? What we meet in terms of clients and who we're meeting this week? What's the pipeline look like? And then what individual coaching tasks do we need to do per person this week? Um, so that's, that's a rough agenda that go through it.

Okay.

Um, and by having those conversations on a Monday with the ADs, they then have a very similar one on their one-to-ones with every consultant within it. Um, I took a long time to get to though. Why?

What did they look like before? Just a mess, just honestly just like talking about whatever seems important at the time.

This is going really well, but actually not thinking about the future and what's coming in behind it, or, oh, this person's really, really struggling with X, Y, and Z. Um, so it took me a long time to, I guess, just set a structure that I was comfortable with that I could then hold the ADs accountable to. And now that, now that they know that, they can do a similar thing and replicate it for their teams as well. Um, I know it will come on to it, but we went through, we went through a merger a few years ago, so there was, there were so many moving parts in the business combined with me growing into this role that we've taken a while to get to this point that everyone knows what the format is, what sort of conversation we're going to be having, and they have exactly the same with the level below.

Curious, how, how do you actually walk away from those meetings, uh, and that felt like helpful for the ADs. So what I mean by that is, how do you ensure that I don't— I'm an AD in your team, we sit down Monday and it's just Matt grilling me on numbers and like where they should be, where they're not. How do you like help? Like, do you know what I mean? How have you approached that? Because I think that's often, you know, when we work with people at Hector on delivering training with us, a lot of the time it is like people in those seats, and a lot of the time they haven't had much support, if any, on how to be a better coach, but to be a manager. So like, you can help me fact-find where the problems are. But then I might not have the skill set to go, hey Matt, you know, we've been running into this problem a lot of the time, like, let's talk through that and I can effectively coach you to hopefully get a different outcome. Yeah, because I feel like that's often missed as well, because if I just go into those meetings and you're like, we're all in the red, what's going on, and it's all about the numbers, that I'm probably not going to walk away from that and just not find that helpful.

100%. And, and for people who are all in the green, doesn't mean things are going perfect as well, right? It's not all about Yeah, that green, amber, red traffic light system. Yeah, you're right. And I don't always have the answer. So I think that fact-finding exercise is very two-way. There's lots of tips and advice I'm sure I can share with people, but it might be, cool, we've identified what we think might be a problem for this particular consultant to go and work on. Let's bring in the expertise. We've got a really collaborative space, so let's bring in the expertise from who we think is a good person. So, you know, Talk about BD, we've done that as an example already. So, um, yeah, this person is really struggling to get conversations with hiring managers that seems like they've got all their, all their network, but they're just really struggling to convert it into an actual conversation. Who's a really good person? Go through some coaching exercises or coach out of the ADs and what they can do with that consultant, but then try and find the expertise in the business who is really good at converting those leads into, into something and go and get them to spend half an hour, 45 minutes. Make sure both sides are prepped on it because it can be quite intimidating of get this person who's quite junior or struggling to go and sit with a principal or director or one of the top billers. But if you, if you give context on why that meeting's taking place, is that you're obviously struggling with A at the moment, this person's fantastic at it, let's get you in a room and see how they do it and what you can learn from it as well.

I really like that. I think that's often missed. A lot of companies I speak with don't leverage that internal expertise. They just rely on people having the courage to ask for help. Yeah, and people oftentimes don't, don't have that, or like don't find the right moment. Or even though you can say until you're blue in the face, like, open door policy, reach out when you can, it still relies on that person to have the courage to ask for help.

Yeah, and that's, I suppose that's the beauty of my role, is it allows me to have a slightly higher level view on the strengths and weaknesses or where we are at any point in time. So it could be in those Monday sessions that Associate Director 1 is finding a struggle with Consultant 1, Associate Director 2 is also finding a very similar struggle with one of their consultants. Let's do a little workshop. Let's get a few people together. It can be the broader function in my case, um, because let's make it less intimidating and less feel like a, a boot camp for those that are struggling. But let's just treat it as a little workshop and get everyone in together.

Yeah, no, I think I really like that. Um, curious then, just to talk to you about being in the seat that you're just talking about in terms of you get like a really unique perspective. We've spoken about BD, but I'd love to just hear your take and your experiences of this year. Obviously you guys do a lot of business in tech, right?

A lot, yeah.

So for most people I've spoken to, it's been a real challenging year, particularly more like the, the first half of the year.

Yeah.

So being in, you know, the seat that you're in, what— like, it'd be probably useful just to hear, like, what have you found to be the common challenges that you've seen teams, people run into this year? What is it? What's ended up being a real common stumbling block?

Yeah, I think you're right. It's been— it's definitely been a tougher year for us this year. Um, I think where we were semi-lucky, and we've also— coming on to a question about what have we done differently— because we focus on a skill set and a sector— sorry, a skill set and a, yeah, I guess a niche or a job title rather than an industry. You know, we're not an FS company, FS recruitment agency. We're not just a purely tech recruitment agency. Our our client list has always been quite diverse, whether that be the age and the size of the business right through to the actual industry and sector. So we actually noticed, well, the leadership team noticed probably August, September, there was starting to be a drop-off globally because we've got some other offices elsewhere in the US, we're starting to see a dip before the UK. So the warning signs were there quite early. So we got together very early on and said, how can we combat this if the market does start to really tighten? And step number 1 for us was identifying industries or client base that we thought we could really maximise. So there's some, I guess, a bit of common sense around what industries we think would be semi-recession-proof or which ones could do quite well out of this. But then the second part was, who have we got really good penetration with at the moment, or even who do we not, but we can expand on? So we've had loads of— something we haven't really done for a while, again, sounds quite obvious, but loads of weekly client strategy sessions internally as a leadership team to work out exactly that. Step number 1, who do we not work with, or what industries do we not work with at the moment that we want to? And step number 2, how do we wrap our arms around those that we think could still see us through this? Um, and it's, it's 100% paid dividend. It's, it's been a slightly different way of working, to be honest with you.

What's paid dividend? Sorry, the weekly client strategy? Yeah, like just having an intentional space each week to talk about those two things.

Exactly that. Yeah, yeah. And again, holding each other accountable. If someone says, you know, ABC Limited, I want to really expand on them, cool, let's identify some hiring managers within ABC Limited, let's put a little task force together to go and introduce ourselves, map it out as an organisation, and then let's report back next week on where we're up to with each of that. You know, a week in recruitment is nothing, it'll completely fly by, but at least we're then tracking it on a weekly basis on where we're getting up to with that client. Um, but it's, as I said, very different way of working for us. You know, traditionally we've, because we've been focused on a skill set or a job title, historically we would work, each consultant, maybe 30, 40 vacancies at any one time. And it was much more tailored to the candidate. So you could speak to a candidate and whatever they were interested in looking for, we generally have a role on our roster that could be suitable for them. And then all of a sudden the job vacancies were dropping and dropping and dropping, and we've now had to be much more client-driven. You know, it's just the traditional going from a candidate-driven market to a job-driven market. But I think appreciating that and not just saying, oh, it'll be fine, we'll just stick to our way of working, implementing these client strategy sessions, were 100% a game changer for us.

And are you, are you doing those with individuals or your ADs?

It's not, it's not necessary to say these is whoever we think has got, you know, we'll pull people in. So if there's a client that one of the junior consultants is working with but they've got a good relationship with them, cool, let's bring them in. So it's not just the leadership team or management team, it's us that set it up and it's up and running with it, but it's any, anyone who we think is relevant for it.

I love that. Honestly, you'd be so so many people don't like make space for stuff like that. No, it's just that all they're making sure people are doing is doing the 8 hours of BD a week.

Yeah, BD is a never-ending task, right? I think we say go and do BD, most people will go and sit on the advert, see what adverts are out there, put a couple of specs together and fire it out. But he can just be so much more interesting and so much more exciting if you actually put a little task force and strategy behind it.

Um, I don't understand how and why.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And also buddying people up, right? From that example I mentioned earlier of someone who might be a more junior consultant, perhaps that's a great exposure for them to maybe work with a couple of other more senior people who've been doing it a lot longer, but buddying up and actually getting a little task force together to go and tackle that client.

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About an hour now. Like, they were long to start with because step number one was the, the mapping out of who we want to even go to, right? Um, so that, that was quite long-winded. I think one of the key things we learned over time was the shorter the list, the better. You don't want hundreds of companies on this because it's just going to be this never-ending task that actually defeats the purpose of what it's meant to be, which is really tailored, really specific, a list that we think is going to maximize opportunity for us. So that was— I think we got down to 10 per section. So 10 that we don't work with that we want to, and 10 that we do work with that we want to continue and expand.

Okay, so basically the first step was—

who are they?

Who, yeah, who, who are we going after? And you break it down into two categories. Yeah. Who do we don't— who do we not work with that we want to?

Yeah.

And who do we currently work with or have terms with that we feel like we could be doing way more with?

Yeah.

On the first category, what ended up being like— how— what ended up being like the key bits in terms of what— why did they make it into that category?

Yeah, it's mainly size and space. Um, so pick something on energy, for example. Obviously was doing, doing all right. So yeah, so any energy clients were a big one for us, and specifics, but we broke into a couple off the back of that task alone. Um, looking for ones that were— the sexier brands or the VCs were probably the ones to avoid for us. You know, in a tighter market, VC-led businesses were less likely to go and do huge rounds of recruitment. So I think swerving those, which were traditionally a huge client base for us— that, that was our sweet spot, is Series A through to IPO type businesses and helping them scale. So actually swerving them as much as possible, and probably more the traditional household brands, the FTSE 100 organizations. But again, spreading our bets a little bit, so looking at telco, energy, oil and gas, and really spreading it that way.

So did you have people come to those sessions with, hey Matt, these are the clients that I think I want to put in this category?

Everyone.

Yeah, everyone. So everyone came, like the task was, right guys, I want you to identify clients that, yeah, you don't work with, you want to, that you might that you got terms with that you're not doing as much with, and then they'd come to that session and then you'd break it all down together on like if they should stay in that category or not.

Exactly that. Yeah, I think so. Going back to your question of why them as well, one thing I forgot to mention is obviously they have a team or have a need for the skill set we recruit. Yeah, sure.

So yeah, looking at ones that they have a problem that you feel like you can solve for them.

Yes, maybe not even necessarily a problem yet because we don't know, but at least that they've got some sort of function there or we think there is a good use case for a function there.

It's in line with your skill set. Exactly.

Yeah.

Okay, so that took a couple of weeks to get it whittled down to a core list of companies that was manageable for people to take consistent action on over a week.

Yeah.

Okay, so that's the first step, which I think, one, for anyone listening, if, if your consultants can't tell you at least 10 that go in both those categories, or maybe just the first category because they haven't got any terms signed, missing a trick or making it more harder for them, because then you're making it very clear, just giving them really clear companies and brands to be going after rather than just— yeah, I think that just helps, you know, having a clear direction. So we've done that, and then what, what did the sessions then consist of? So if I'm coming to that session, you're like, okay, look, these, these companies look great, Hishem. Yeah, definitely. And these companies over here as well. Perfect, that's a really good list. What are we then focusing on?

Yeah, again, it took a few weeks to get the format, um, but what, where we've kind of landed up to is then putting task force per consult— per client.

So what does task force mean?

Um, so 3 teams of 3 or 4. Um, so yeah, let's call them ABC Limited. Um, so trying to make sure there is someone— the 4 skill sets we recruit in terms of data, software, cloud, and product— making sure there is one person from each of those sub-teams from Xceeds who's going to go and try and map out their space within that client, right? Um, so it doesn't always need to be the leadership, doesn't always need to be a principal consultant. As I said, really trying to get other people bought into what we're doing, just a different way of thinking. So making sure there is a task force of, say, 3 or 4 people per client. And then what sort of metrics or information do we want to come back with next week? So it's a bit easier for the ones that we've already got the terms with or we've already worked with and placed with. That is much more around, I guess, drawing a little— we drew up a nice grid of where have we transacted internally with each of those clients. So if we've already transacted in data, products, software, and cloud, wicked. They're a gold client for us. How do we get even more out of them? And that might be leveraging on those relationships with TA and HR to maximize that a bit further, selling different solutions to see if we can get some retained or exclusive work within there. But then the easiest one actually is looking through that grid and seeing where the gaps are. So we might have transacted with them in data, but we've never transacted with them in the other skill sets. Let's make sure we're getting those introductions into those CTO, CPO, VPs, whatever the job titles be, and then break it down that way. The, the ones of who we haven't yet worked with, that's a bit harder because where do you start? Um, by having the task force, because we've been so skill set led, that's, that's a good starting point. So you have one person from data, they'll reach out to the data managers and say, hey, this is who we are, this is what we've done with your competitors, and go through that way.

What's been— I think that's what people be interested in, like what's, what's worked well. Yeah, what, what's— I know it varies, like has it been speccing? Has it been talking about the events that you run? I know it might vary per skill set, but what, what have you found to be the most consistent thing that people come back into that client session with, going, hey, I had a really good week this week, did this, did that, and we managed to get a first meeting?

Yeah, I think, I think for this task, not the speccing. Um, we see good success from speccing into, into live leads, and you know, there's a very specific problem, here's a very specific solution. That, that makes sense. This was, this is a bit more proactive, right? This is I don't know if you're hiring at the moment, if you have any plans to, but, but if you are, this is why I could be a good partner for you. So it's much softer. And what we've seen, bucket number 2 of clients we already work with, that's a bit easier to, to quantify quickly because it's okay, we've not yet transacted in this area. Can we come back and say that a meeting is booked in this time next week? So that's a bit easier to do. What's worked with us, or what we've started to see work for us in bucket number 1 of clients we don't work with, is that longer term relationship building. You know, we're now probably 7 or 8 months properly into this task force of how it's all working, and, and those conversations, those clients that we're bringing on board, those jobs we're now pulling have taken a long time to get to there. So again, anyone listening, it's a patience with it. I know it's the most frustrating thing to hear, um, but yeah, we haven't had a golden bullet. As you said, it's been our events, it's been our podcast, it's been our webinars, um, a lot of it's just been showcasing work that we've done in their specific area. So whether it's a competitor we've placed with or companies that are in and around their world.

How would you showcase that? Like case studies?

Yeah, a lot of just packs. Yeah, PDF packs. Um, not so much one-pagers because I think there's, there's quite a bit of information we can put on there. Um, so yeah, the more packs we can provide, the better. We've got our standard, um, client brochure, and then we'll just add a few slides that are specific to that client or that sector in that industry.

I mean, you'd be surprised how many people don't have that.

This is the thing, we've only done it off the back of this as well.

Really?

Yeah, we've, we've had a client brochure, but it's been so generic. It wasn't specific.

You're like, that's what makes it more impactful, right?

Yeah, but this— our marketing team are wicked, so we work very closely with them to make sure that we've got a— every consultant has access to the share drive so they can get their own, um, what do you call it, but yeah, the, the amendable packs basically. And then there's the template energy, like energy and product or whatever. Yeah, and then a lot of it is, okay, if I'm new to it and I'm going to go and target an energy business, what energy clients have we, um, have we worked with before? And that's that's not on a CRM. You know, we don't yet have something that we can segment based on industry and get all the testimonials ready-made. So there is a bit of work going in the background to get to that point where it's a nice polished brochure, a nice introduction that goes out so that someone actually opens it. Okay, these guys know what they're doing. Yeah.

And it's not— yeah, it's not just what you're saying to me, it's— there's evidence that I can point out.

Exactly. Yeah.

What have you— just curious, just curious then, like, what, what's ended up in these packs? Is it just a combination of testimonials? Is it we reduce their hiring time to this, that sort of stuff?

Yeah, um, I can't remember at the top of my head all the individual bits, but a lot of it is introduction to Xceed, the skill sets we recruit, high-level testimonials for us as a business generally, so some key logo brands, a page that then specific to that industry with logos of competitors or people that we've placed in and around there, and then some quotes from 4 or 5 people. Again, the more varied in terms of someone from product, someone from data, someone from tech, the better. Um, we've got one page which is around the service level offering they can provide, whether it's contingent, retained. Um, we've got one page in there that is specific to what we do within the community around our events and our webinars and everything else. And then one that's a link to our salary guide. So I think altogether it's just a nice polish. This is who Xceed are and what we do, but you can tell it's tailored to them.

Yeah, I love that. Now I appreciate you sharing that. I know, as you'll know, like so many people have struggled. Like, I just really like how start to see a problem, come up with a solution, you refined that over time, and now you've— it sounds like you've got a process that actually has ended up being really valuable to have in your, in your teams to be doing on a weekly basis.

And it's constantly improving as well, right? Like, I think assuming that you've got to the, the end goal is the worst thing you can do, by constantly improving, whether it's the packs that we're putting together and people have got different ideas, maybe it's moving away from a pack altogether and doing a video introduction or something. But I think keeping fresh and making sure A, so it's enjoyable, so that the job itself— because BD can be quite a thankless task. So by having these task force, it feels quite, quite interesting. It's a bit more project-based.

Yeah, I like that you— I like that it's not— I, I do also like that obviously you've got the benefit of the different skill sets and the different divisions, but I do, I do like that idea of the task force because then you can sort of bounce off each other and be like, oh man, I managed to get into— like, I spoke to Yeah, exactly. Talk to me then about, like, I wanted to frame this up in a way where when you started to then, like, what, what was the beginning steps of Matt now having to understand P&L and these things? When did that start to happen?

Um, I couldn't even put a specific date on it. It's a bit more and more so as the months go by. Um, I think probably tail end of 2021 was when I was in my non-billing role. And that was the first time I almost single-handedly took responsibility for a budget. Um, so August, August 2021, I kind of— I think I did my last deal then. Um, and September, October time, we were starting to put together the NFI budget for the year, uh, well, sorry, for next year. Um, and that was the first time it wasn't just a, okay, cool, what's the NFI and the NBV going to be for a team, how does that trickle down to EBITDA, and Yeah, it was a learning curve, and there still is a learning curve on the importance of it. And we talked about cash flow and invoice and everything else that comes with it. Um, but I think by spending more time with my CEO at the point in time, and also our CFO now, on, on the importance of it and learning through it— I'm quite lucky my wife is an accountant, so that helps. I've got a little bit of an insight to it. But yeah, probably, probably formally this time 2 years ago, give or take.

So what was you like as you started that, and as you continue learning about that, executing the reports, looking at your important dashboards, what would you most surprised by is what I'm interested in. So someone listen to this right now, they're a recruiter, they might have aspirations to get to where you got to or become an associate director or whatever. If, yeah, like with those set of glasses on, like what do you think they'd be most surprised by? Is it how long it takes typically to get paid, or I don't know, like, what were some of the things you're like, oh, that's really interesting how that works, or I didn't expect that?

Yeah, how long it takes to get paid, definitely. Um, I'm trying to think the other one. I suppose the actual conversion rate. So we— maybe it's specific to us as a business and the pain points we've had over the last few years, but seeing a phenomenal month of what I thought was NFI and what that equates to at the end, um, and then also trying to then explain that because we're really transparent, explain that back to the sales floor on, you know, it may feel like we're absolutely killing it, but we need— we still we need to work on these areas. And that's why we need to— a lot of it has come from a merger, so there was very bloated costs that— not just about headcount or anything like that, but things like insurance and loads of other bits that I've never even considered. And that ultimately trickles down to the bottom line. Um, so I think that, that was a biggest one, maybe specific to me at my point in time and where the company was, that the business— the 2021, 2022 was a phenomenal year for recruitment, but actually EBITDA, I was looking at, I was like, sure, we're making more money than that, but it's Yeah, I think that was the biggest— maybe not a learn, but I guess just the biggest shock. And then, okay, how can we—

well, you never would have had to think about that before.

No, no, that's true. Um, I think the other one, which is— I was already familiar with, but is the difference in motivation between MBV and NFI. And that's obviously from a perm point of view, contracts maybe a bit more transparent because that's what you're tracking on a weekly, weekly basis with your runner book. Um, but seeing a phenomenal month of MBV—

so wait, let's explain that.

Sorry. Yeah, so So NBV for us is new biz value. So whatever, I place a candidate today, put the deal through, once they've ticked all the boxes that we're happy with for compliance, that goes on the board. That goes on the board. That's our NBV. Yeah. NFI is when we actually get paid or when the company gets paid. So in perm, especially in the UK, let's say people have got a 3-month notice. I do a deal today in October. That candidate might not start till January. The NFI then comes through in January, get paid commission in February. So it, it was a slightly different, you know, we get paid on candidate starting, so that's already part of your thinking process. But it's celebrating— most of the celebrations we have in terms of our, our incentives, our lunch cards, our holidays is all around MBV. And I do think that's the right way of doing it for us as a business anyway, is because we want to be constantly driving new activity rather than the same top billers sitting on their NFI and getting on the incentives. That's not really what it's about. Um, so that was, that was another one as well, is great NBV doesn't necessarily equal NFI in that quarter or in that month. So trying to actually try and track it and look at the seasonality behind it as well, because there's seasonality behind placing candidates and doing deals, but there's huge seasonality on when those candidates are going to start the job.

Um, it's like tracking for that.

Yeah.

So what would be the biggest—

December, December is a ghost town, right? Hardly anyone start well in my case anyway, hardly anyone starts in December. So allowing for that seasonality, um, step number 1 for me when I did my first ever budget, which is something to learn from, was, okay, let's go through, go through the individuals. So Joe Blogs, this is what I think they're going to do this year, and I just divided it by 12. That's what an NFI will be. Then just, yeah, let's say they're 120k.

Why did you think to divide it by 12?

Just, just in terms of ease of month. And then, uh, very quickly got pushed back to me and said, have you thought about when those NFIs are actually going to land and the seasonality behind it. Okay, that makes, that makes sense. Um, so the whole way through this has been quite a good learning curve.

Yeah, that I'd— because I, I do think, I think I said to you, I did a post about this week where I think if people to go out on their own and start their own recruitment business, that's often one of the things that they maybe like not didn't think of but underestimate.

Yeah.

Yeah, so like, like, have you now found yourself trying to impact how quickly the NFI is in terms of, you know, have people talk about payment terms and negotiate those things in the process? Because they're the types of things that you can try and implement or communicate or have people do more effectively that can help with NFI.

Yeah, no, definitely. Um, I think you said it yourself, it's an education piece. So the more I didn't have that exposure from someone saying to me this is why we want 30-day payment terms or 14-day payment terms instead of 60 that the client have asked for, and that's why it's important to negotiate. At the point when you're billing, 99% of it, yeah, you just want the terms signed, you want to place a candidate, and you want to move on to the next one. So that is, yeah, something I've been aware of. And then I've always been quite an open and transparent person, and anything I learn, I want to try and impart on those that are interested and obviously will be relevant for. So explaining to them, the consultant who has agreed new terms on, oh, do I need to push back on it being 50-day or 45-day payment terms? Let's try. Let's go through it. This is what you can explain to the client. This is why it is important for us as a business as well. So my focus is perm, so I can understand having now had some exposure to the wider business, I get it even more so from a contract point of view because I think we talked about it earlier in the week about some really big projects that we've landed and our CFO having kittens about it because actually we don't get paid and sorry, we pay the contractors up in advance and then we're not getting the money back until X amount of days. So the cash flow for us is so, so important and that's something I've never really had to think about in my roles up until the last couple of years.

And then how did you find those first few reports? Were you nervous? Was it what went wrong? What?

Not really, because it wasn't a change overnight. It's not as though these have been Matt's doing this role now and then tomorrow he's going to change and it's been completely different. A lot of this has been transition. I've been at the business for a long time, so a lot of the people I've been reporting up to have had the journeys as I have as well. So it's been, it's been an easier transition than maybe some other people experience where it is a flick of a switch and going through it. But as I said, there's no— I don't know, hopefully this isn't just Exceed and it is the wider recruitment industry, but there's no point in trying to catch people out. If I'm nervous about reporting back up, then ultimately I'm probably going to fumble something along the way. I'd much rather report something up that is inaccurate, e.g., don't do it, just divide by 12 for what you think the NFI is going to be, have you thought about it this way? And that ethos is what we've got as a business. So not really, no, it wasn't something I was too nervous about.

And then, like you said, just be curious. So like the weekly things you do now, what do you report on a weekly basis?

Um, so yeah, starting point will be the NFI, um, NFI and MBV. So what we do last week, where does that fall into, how does that track against the budget that we've put in place. And then there's a similar conversation to what I have with the ADs, so how— less, less granular, so less around individual consultants. Um, but it will be how, how was last week as a, as a function. Did we hit our KPIs? Did we not hit our KPIs? What does that mean? What's the impact? What clients are we meeting this week? So most, most of it's just about a sounding board and it's me talking to Adam, our COO, and talking to him about the week that we've had and him bouncing some ideas back off. We work quite well as a pair.

What's been— when you're getting the direct access to the CEO, what's been some of the sort of most memorable or best bits of advice he's imparted on you, do you think?

Hmm, good question. I haven't really thought about that. I suppose most of it is to trust my instinct, or at least go with it, because same as the people underneath me, that we promote people because we believe they should be. Um, so by stepping into this role, someone somewhere along the way had faith in me that I can go and do this. Um, now this is probably the biggest jump in terms of a learning curve, you know, going from a, uh, a senior principal type person to a manager. I had the coaching stuff in me already, so that this was— this is by far the biggest jump because there's a whole new tool set that I'm having to learn. Um, but just, I think, just having the, the faith that someone out there has believed in me to go and do this role. So them passing that back onto me, that I can go and do it. And if it's not something I'm familiar with, ask for help.

And then curious, because there's a lot of different things, like we said at the beginning, like a lot— there's a lot on that list that you could be doing. You're trying to figure out to get better at, like, being, like, less reactive, but maybe that's always going to be part of your role. So just curious to hear your take on, like, right now, from your perspective, because you've been doing this for a couple of years now, what do you think are some of, like, some of, if not the, like, highest leverage activities you can spend your time on?

A lot of client stuff. Yeah, definitely. Um, especially at the moment where we are job lighter— sorry, lighter for jobs than we're used to. Um, the more I can be bringing in, the more I can be on those meetings and maximizing. Um, That's not to mean I am better than anyone in the business necessarily, but I have a fancier job title, which is part of it, right? So if I'm going to go and meet a head of TA, head of HR, or even some C-suites within the business, just by being there adds some credibility to the consultant that I'm going with, or the couple of the consultants I'm going with. But that's the main thing. The more clients we can be winning or maximising, the more jobs, the more deals we're going to be doing, and ultimately the quicker we'll progress as a business.

So that's one of the things that has always got to stay.

Yeah, definitely.

That should trickle down in terms of having one of the biggest impacts. Definitely, on your function. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that. I think also, like, you— by you going to those meetings, you're staying close to the problems in your industry, what people are talking about. You can then also, you know, offer your perspective. You can, you can talk about how you're seeing this in the, in the data industry that could be impacting the product industry. I don't know exactly how it works, but yeah, you've got a really great unique perspective that you can— I'm sure you can add for sure in those things as well. Speaking about, um, BD, I think something that you said you, you pride yourself on is thinking outside the box.

Yeah.

Do you want to tell us a story about how you know Deliveroo then?

I hope no one from work listens to this.

Um, why? Does no one know?

Uh, no, no, it's just they're fed up of hearing it. Yeah. Nice. Um, well, when I was a— this is probably 2 or 3 years into the job I just got bored of doing the same sort of BD approaches, right? That I think keep them, you have to do the basics, you have to do your spec and you have to do your outreaches, you have to do your intros. But I quite like just trying to do something new. So as cheesy as it was with, so this was Deliveroo as they were, I think Series A at the time. So quite a smaller business than they are now. And they were growing their first data team. And I remember seeing, I think someone from Netflix, so really incredible caliber candidate joined them as their chief. And so I thought, you're not hiring someone of that caliber if you're not going to go and expand the team. And their office was a 5-minute walk from ours. So after relentless approaches being rejected and just turned down and just radio silence, I took it upon myself to get a box of Krispy Kremes, print out a couple of— well, took our client brochure with us and a couple of anonymous CVs. I think the tagline I put on the note was, you've been delivering to me for the last few months. I'd love to deliver some candidates to you. Lo and behold, he became a good client for us, so it did pay off. But like, what, you walked into the reception, walked into reception and said, dropped them off?

Oh, you dropped them off? You didn't like try to speak?

Well, I did, but the guy wasn't there.

So what did you say? Like, it's so-and-so here, can you let—

yeah, this is so-and-so here, can you, uh, well, he wasn't, so can you leave these for him?

So if he was, what would you have said? Uh, how would you approach that?

Probably same as what's on the note. So yeah, I've been pestering you, why have you not answered my messages?

Really?

No. Um, yeah, a lot of it would have been in the, the colder intro. This is who I am. I know it's really cheesy, but I think just by doing that alone would get some sort of interaction, right?

Well, and then you just got a phone call.

Yeah, I got a message a few weeks later saying thanks for the donuts.

Not even like— oh, so a few weeks later as well?

Yeah, it wasn't straight away at all. Kept me stewing. But this is the thing with BD, right? Unless you get very, very lucky, it's about timing. And I think where people struggle is that they give up too early, or they maybe do one or two approaches and then, oh, nothing back from them, they've got no interest, and move on to the next one. But these things take a lot of time. I know there's all sorts of sales analogies about the 9th approach, 10th approach, or whatever, but it's true, 100%. Um, so I think the worst thing that someone can do earlier in their career is pick up a job off the first approach, because then you think that's how it does. Yeah.

Have you got any other— maybe doesn't have to be yours, but any other ideas that people have tried?

Any other ideas?

But has anyone done anything else?

Uh, I'm trying to think.

It's paid off, hasn't paid off.

Yeah, not, not cheesy ones like that. A lot of our stuff, um, at the moment especially, is, is events-led, um, to go looping back to that subject matter expertise. But we had an event this Tuesday, and the amount of clients that I've been trying and trying and trying— you get them in a room and actually they can see that you host something good and there's some good credibility behind it. And then without any prompting, they come up to you and say, I know you've been speaking to us, actually now might be a good time to talk about recruitment. Um, it's just, it's just one of those things. But yeah, we've seen really good success from event-led things, whether it's roundtables, webinars, and started a podcast series actually, so that'll be coming out soon.

But these in-person networking events definitely And like, where, where do you often see like the net positive of that? Is it the— in, you know, having a reason to reach out to people? Is it that isn't like jobs and the typical like stuff? Is it the, the follow-up where it's really powerful? Is it just being in a room with these people and then it feels like maybe a bit more of a safe space to—

yeah. And I think credibility, right? I think if people come to something and they see the brand and they associate it with something that's great in their space, then there's that positive recognition there. Um, The only, the only risk I would say with having a reason to speak to someone is we see it sometimes where people can fall into the trap of becoming event managers and event bookers and forgetting that actually why we're speaking to these people. Um, yes, there's the long-term relationship build, but actually it's recruitment, right? That's, that's the end goal of why we're trying to do all of these things, is to help clients build their teams. Um, and I think if you do so many events and webinars and roundtables, people can get so lost in that they forget the day-to-day. Um, so I think your first point of, do you do these just because it's another point to talk to people about? Yes, if it's the right measurement of it. Um, but I think the main, the main thing is the credibility. You know, we don't, we don't go to an event, we don't organize an event expecting to come away with 10 jobs or 10 new clients or anything like that. That'd be great, but a lot of it is about those, those longer-term relationships and that brand recognition within that community.

And you're correct, you have the perception of your credibility, what you're about. Yeah, increasing. No, you are right. It's just that— is that— I think that's often why sometimes when I speak to recruitment founders, they feel like it is going to end up being just about that and there isn't that conversion. But I know it is— I would— I don't know if you would agree, but I would say, you know, leaning into that type of approach, it is like a— you're definitely going to get tons of net positive things happening in the long term, but you should definitely experience short-term, medium-term wins as well. But I think it is just as simple as making sure if you do speak to anyone about it, and that's your reason why you're reaching out to them, that you always say, this is why we put these together, this is the purpose of them. If you do attend, this is what to expect. And look, you know, before I leave you, or like, why we do these, it's because Xceed, we're this and we do that. Like, just educating people on this is what we're about, this is what we do, this is what we're different. This is just part of, you know, what we're trying to deliver for our network to hopefully provide even more value um, to the people that we work with day in, day out. Yeah, I think sometimes people miss, like, yeah, like educating people on, you know, this is why we do this and this is what we do at our business.

Yeah, and the follow-ups with it as well, right? Because it's all very well having that conversation there and then, but it's, it's the follow-up meeting, call, whatever it be off the back of it. Yeah.

So talk to me about, as we come to the end here then, talk to me about what— like, you're in a really unique position. You've, you've made some really good adjustments, like the client strategy sessions, which, which I really loved. Like, going into next year then, like, what are you remaining laser focused on? What is it that you're really thinking, like, that needs to be in your top 3 agendas? Like, what's really top of mind going into next year when thinking about performance and your function?

Yeah, it's, it's been a learning year for us. So I think going away from, I said, job-led, job-led, job-led, um, also candidate-driven, but in a job-led market, um, and now it's much more about quality in everything that we do. So we're putting together our whole service, again, going back to basics, but everything from the candidate experience through to someone onboarding and post-service. So what does every single step look like? It times in with a new CRM rollout for us as well. So there's reasons behind it, but that step number 1 is how do we maintain, how do we make sure that every single touchpoint with Xceed is a high-quality service? Because that's, as I said, that's, that's That's the free BD. If you're providing a good quality service, then that's exactly what candidates and clients want to work with, and that's what makes people rememberable and then coming back to. So number 1 is moving into this quality-led focus. We've got our own— I know you're going to ask me what they are, I can't remember off the top of my head, but we've got our own metrics that we're measuring for the 3 Cs: candidates, clients, and colleagues. So every Q launch, we have our quarterly launches. We're now talking about those 3 Cs and 4 measurements per C of what quality, how we can track the quality.

So to give people an example— sorry, net promoter score.

Yeah. So I think, I think like on the client side, yes, reviews is one bit of it, but a good quality client for us, not just a good quality interaction with Xeed to a client, what does a good quality client look like? And once upon a time we would have said all the sexy logos and really cool tech companies, but actually A dream client for us is one that is transacting in multiple, multiple locations ideally, but also multiple skill sets with us. And that is a good quality client. So tracking on a quarter by quarter basis how many clients are what we can call a gold client that's operating in all of those services there. And I think just that having that, that slight shift in mentality of, okay, we talk about quality, but how do we measure that?

How do we measure it?

And those three C's there. And again, not just our colleagues, not just our clients and our candidates, but the colleagues as well. How do we make sure this is a really quality business? To work for and the people enjoy working here and feel valued.

Exciting. I think the, the person, um, before you, Abby, we spoke, like, she's really passionate about that. And I think that is again something that I feel like a modern-day recruitment business is going to have to like really lean into, um, because as you just said, the way you described it, let's be honest, yeah, free BD. But also I think if you really lean into delivering a like world-class experience for clients, for candidates, for colleagues, it then just helps everything.

Yeah, right.

Um, and also what— that should feel like a fun exercise, like how can we, how can we make each step amazing? Um, I think that's a great thing to be focusing on and thinking about and have that pride with it.

Yeah.

Matt, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. I think you've been on an awesome journey. Uh, I think clearly like there's still going to be tons more to learn. Like, really exciting what you're going to continue to be exposed to, how you're going to help drive the business forward. I think this is what I love about industry. Like, you've started as a salesperson, right, you know, recruiter, and now you're in the rooms with, you know, people that have built successful businesses. You're involved in how you become more profitable. Like, this is the great thing about industry— there's so much you can learn.

For sure, right?

And especially if you keep progressing and you want to go down this leadership route, like, all these things you're learning, um, are just, just valuable forever.

Yeah, I think we touched on this earlier in the week, didn't we, that recruitment is a career. Yeah. And I think there are so many, so many people that fall into recruitment, for want of a better phrase, um, but it— and it took me probably a couple of years to realize this, this can be a career. This doesn't need to be something that I'm just bumbling into and not sure what I'm going to do later on in life. And I think they've opened my eyes to this being a career, and I'm really keen to instill that opportunity in others underneath me as well. It's not just, okay, this is wicked for me, I'll go down my own little journey now. I want to try and take people through the education pieces that I'm having now, and everything from a consultant understanding why payment terms is important and that, what that all leads to. So yeah, no, it's a great thing to do.

Love that, Matt. It's been a pleasure.

Likewise, appreciate it. Thank you very much.