Harry Simpson - You always have to stay one step ahead of your competition !

Welcome back to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast, and on this week's episode I was joined by Harry Simpson. Harry has been on a really interesting journey where he's worked in recruitment for just over 5 years, but for the last 4 and a bit years he's really progressed and really kicked on with his recruitment career at Fraser Dove. They're an exec search firm, they recruit within the life sciences space, and we really broke down why he's been able to build a successful network, how he adds value to his clients and candidates. We broke down day plans We broke down his mindset and so much more. Enjoy this episode. Harry, welcome to the podcast.

Yeah, thank you very much for having me.

Looking forward to this one. I said to you that a lot of people that listen to this, I sort of sometimes you realize, oh, I've interviewed loads of business owners and haven't sat down with someone like yourself who 4 and a bit years into their journey, you've progressed quite quickly. And a lot of people really enjoy learning from people that they can relate to and are on a similar journey or want to get to. Sort of where you are on your journey. So I'm really excited to sort of unpack the last 4 and a bit years. Yeah, it's been a journey of your career journey. So where we always like to start, and I'd be interested to just get your, your take on this, is just the, the question a lot of business owners think about, managers, leaders think about. So I'd love to hear your opinion on like what you believe are the characteristics and traits that make up like a highly successful, high-performing modern-day recruiter.

Yeah, no, thank you for having me, really excited to be on the podcast. So for me, there's maybe 3 or 4 things that I think fall within that category of making a top-performing recruiter. One for sure is resilience. So I'm sure you've heard that answer before, but, you know, naturally the industry has a lot of ups and downs, and you're going to face adversity over time, so it's something that is going to come your way. I've had, even today alone, I've had a great day, I've had some highs today, and I've also had something that's a bit of a setback. So you're always going to experience it within the role, But it's how you're actually able to take those setbacks but keep pushing forward through them is definitely one that I would say I not only try to remind myself constantly, but also when I'm actually interviewing candidates or people that are not only for the jobs that I'm working on, but potentially people coming in to join the business. That's something that I'm always looking for, for sure. Another one is a solutions mindset. So it's definitely something we talk about a lot within our company. Again, it kind of relates to that, you're going to face adversity piece, but yeah, coming up with solutions to overcome the challenges that you're facing, not maybe just immediately turning to the person next to you to just sort of ask for help and sort of deflect that problem that you're facing onto someone else and just say, you know, can you fix this for me? Trying to, if someone in my team is facing a challenge and they come to me and say, I've had this problem, 'But I think this is the way that I'm going to handle it.' What do you think? That usually for me, I'm like, okay, cool. I think I'll talk to them about it, but if they're coming to me with the solution, then I think that's the kind of behaviour that I sort of look to encourage, for sure.

Love that. So where I always like to start then is like, who was Harry before recruitment? How do you describe Harry before recruitment?

Yeah, so it's been, it has been quite a journey for me. How many times have people said that? But yeah, I I've started out, my sort of career journey started out at the time when I was, I had friends just about going to university. So for me, this was probably about 6 years ago now, or so now. And I remember at the time, I knew that I didn't want to pursue this university route. I kind of had a bit of a view that it was potentially high cost. I think the prices of university were changing at the time. I'm not someone that slates uni just because I didn't go. I think it can be a great, you know, course of development for people that want to take their career in a direction or actually just go and connect and meet people. 100%. But I decided not to go down that route and I wanted to go and pursue work. And, you know, that's testament, I think, to also the input from my parents. They gave me that sort of confidence. Like, my dad's quite an entrepreneurial type, so had that ability to just go for it. But I think I was lacking motivation around things like education. I didn't perform the best, I'll put my hands up and say that. But I always worked hard outside of, you know, school and college. So I knew that it wasn't an effort thing, it was just about finding the right motivation for me. So I've changed a lot in that sense. I found, you know, a passion for what I want to do. I've understood that maybe financially motivated as well, which is a part of it. But also I think really I found a purpose. So that's been one of the key changes for me.

What— and a lot of, a lot of young people struggle to find that.

Yeah.

So what— how did you stumble across it? They've been quite organic, or was it quite intense? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you see this and a lot of people say this, right?

Yeah, I've— I do feel very grateful because I think you're absolutely right. I think there's a bit of a— I wouldn't say crisis, but there's definitely a difficulty now with people in the earlier stages of their career. It's competitive out there and it's difficult to understand what is it that people want to do. I got quite fortunate in both cases. I do believe that you make your own luck sometimes, so we'll see how that's perceived. But yeah, the first situation is, as I said, the day that my friends went to uni, I was like, okay, this is the future now, I've got to go and make this happen. So I remember I just started calling out to recruitment companies, funny enough.

Really?

Yeah, I just got straight on the phone because Which must have been a cool leap.

Yeah, but what, where, why?

I got straight on the phone because actually this, my parents had always been quite like that, get yourself something.

Do they have their own businesses or?

Yeah, where did my mum came from like events management, my dad has had and ran his own businesses over time, so that's the sort of entrepreneurial side. There's definitely like a sales bloodline running through the family for sure, so that's definitely there, but I just I thought writing up a CV and sending that to people, what sort of response rate that's, what is that going to get? So weirdly enough, it was the first call I made, when, was the first company I ever worked for. So I called them up and I actually was asking about, I think it was like a football, like admin assistant role for a football club or something like that. I was like, oh, interested in this role, got it all wrong. The guy was like, no, we're a recruitment company, I'm not just going to tell you who this is with. It's one of those, but I actually managed to turn it around on that call to warrant myself an interview with the company, and they did graduate recruitment. So that was my first sort of step into the industry. And then, yeah, interviewed the next day, started the next week.

So, okay, so your first job was a recruitment job?

Yeah, yeah. So I was doing graduate recruitment, and that was just a purely business development role. So that organization was split up into business development, account management, and the talent generation piece.

So what did a typical day look like for you then? Who was you trying to prospect and speak to?

Yeah, I think it was a really good entry for me into recruitment because I think one thing I also look for now is quantity with people in terms of what quantity of work can they do. Yeah, because I'm a believer that you can refine someone's skill set and get the quality out of them, but I always maybe look for quantity in their actual inputs now. But at the time I was doing Cold calling, dial-outs, I was probably doing maybe 150 dial-outs a day to get 60 calls or something in that sort of range. So it was just picking up the phone, yeah, internships to graduate recruitment companies. And that served me for a while.

How long did you do that for?

I did that for 18 months.

18 months.

And I did quite well, I can't remember—

What was your worst cold call experience?

Oh man, I don't know. There was one where— No, there was one where I was almost certain that they could hear me, and that they were just deliberately ignoring me. So you'd pick up and people are like, hi, and it's quite humiliating when that happens. You're there like, great, this is actually happening right now. You're really putting me through this. So that was one of them, but that was a good experience, but wrong sort of industry and focus for me. It was a bit at the lower level of where I wanted to be at. And then fortunately, I was in a pub in my like hometown, like one summer day, it's like written out of a story book or something. And I was sat there enjoying like a pint with my dad and got talking to this guy sat across from me and he ended up being a guy called Thomas who's now my boss, Thomas Dove. And we introduced, we got introduced to each other. And I remember I had a business card at the time that I thought was quite flash. So I was like, take my details, let's stay in touch. Yeah, and from there, I guess you say rest is history, but he contacted me, it's about 3 or 4 months later, saying that he was looking for a researcher.

Sure.

Quite like the idea of that because what I was able to do was to take the business development work that I'd already got, but also I wanted to understand the process of delivering candidates into—

Yeah, like the full cycle and that, yeah.

So yeah, started there, and that was in January of 2019.

So really quickly then, and then we'll unpack the Fraser Dove sort of career journey so far. A lot of people are absolutely shit scared of cold calling. Yeah. What, like, looking back on that, and I'm sure there's been elements that you still do a bit of this now, or advice for people that can help them overcome that cold calling fear. I don't know what, like, I'm sure you spoke to people about this before, but like, looking back and the experiences you now have, if I'm someone that I feel like I'm not great at cold calling or I'm really worried about it, what would your advice be for them?

Yeah, I'm trying to dig back to 4 years and what my pitch was at the time, so going all the way back. But if I think about, if I think about now, I think it's be aware of your presence on the phone with that person. Try to be the person at the other end of the line and try to understand what their experience is from your perspective. I call it sort of having this bird's eye view of the conversation. So really get above the call, You're obviously going into their day. You might be cold calling, let's say, at someone's mobile. It might be a candidate. You're going into their day. You have no idea what point of the day they're going in. They could be in a meeting. And I think what you want to do is calmly but confidently present yourself within probably a 10-second timeframe and say, this is why I'm contacting you. Appreciate right now might not be the right timing. "But, you know, is there a better time to discuss this particular topic?" Something like that. I think that's quite beneficial. That's more candidate-driven. If you're doing the business development side, I think it does require a different knack. You've always got to get your personality across, and you've got to win that sort of like emotional battle with them a little bit.

Authenticity and bringing yourself to the call.

I think so. And then there's lots of different versions, of course. There's people that would be calling switchboards, and stuff like that. And lots of people have lots of different styles. I'd always just recommend, you know, listen to the top performer within your company, understand what they do, and try and replicate some of the things that get them success.

No, no, I really like that bird's eye piece because I think we've all been there, haven't we, where you picked— you pick up a phone and they don't, they don't appreciate that, that they're interrupting your day, and they just go straight into their pitch or wherever it may be. Yeah. And that's what really annoys people.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? I think the best thing that you can do at the beginning of a call, which I to do is get permission to carry on with the conversation or not. Do you know what I mean? But I think it's, I really like that. It's like, let's remember, let's actually appreciate the position they're in. Look at it from their point of view and let's just respect that. And then I think that should help you get more out of your conversations rather than just trying to get everything out in a short period of time.

Yeah, they call it like the show up and throw up thing, don't they? Where you just like give them everything in 10 seconds and It's like, who is this? What are you even talking about?

So absolutely, yeah, I love that. So let's unpack the last sort of 4 and a bit years then. So just to frame this up for people, so you're just saying to me before we started, so in around the— towards the end of like 2020, you said you started some sort of mentoring responsibilities. Then a bit more solidly, for the last 8 months or so, you've been in a role where you've got some more direct reports, like 2, soon to be more people, and then there's some more indirect people that you support and help as well, right?

Yeah.

So leading up to that, was you just an individual contributor? You was very much just focused on your own performance and supporting other people in the team? So when you say as a researcher, yeah, obviously Fraser Duff is Exact Search, right? So being a researcher, was that very candidate-focused? And then did you then sort of go on this journey to then start trying to bring in your own business? Like, if you could just frame that up for us, and then we'll then go into some of the, the key parts of that journey.

Yeah, sure. So when I moved into that researcher role, I came in at the time and the business had just won quite a sizable project, so I think it was maybe 40 roles or so within what we call like product supply, so procurement and supply chain for a company based out of the Netherlands. And it was an opportunity for, you know, me to get my teeth into the role, at the roles that I was working, and had a lot of success. I probably did around about 15 placements over that first, you know, 8-month period, which was pretty solid. I was happy with that. And you always— it does also require a certain environment, you know. After that 8-month period, I think someone ended up leaving the business, and that maybe presented an opportunity to give me a bit of a chance. But naturally, we were already having discussions about the development into a consultant role within about a 12-month timeframe. So it kind of got fast-tracked from there. And the next 4 months, I ended up taking on some existing in-house accounts, which is not something everyone gets, so I appreciate that. But, um, was able to take on some roles based out of Switzerland, you know, sort of 20K deals apiece, which are reasonable deals at the time. And that got me to my target for the end of that first year in the business.

Okay.

Um, and then I remember going into, um, I think it would have been 2019, and sort of moving into a bit of an unknown. I didn't really know how it was going to develop. I was obviously riding a bit of a buzz in the sense that I'd hit that financial target and I'd had a good first year in performance. And Fraser Dove has been developing that whole time, so it was in its infancy when I joined. It was about 3 or 4 years old, and I've seen it develop quite a lot since then.

Sure.

So when I actually came in that first year that I had in recruitment, I actually ended up being the top biller for the year.

Oh, wow.

As a first full year as a consultant. I won't go out there and say that it was a crazy high number. I think it was maybe in the 200 range, which is pretty solid still.

Absolutely. So, yeah, um, brand new industry market you had to get your head around as well.

Exactly. And I won't sit there and say I won every single piece of business and it was all mine, but there were some, you know, key bits of retained business that I'd won in that that had contributed to a large part to that overall number. Um, and the way that I was able to develop was By ensuring that I was surrounding myself with people that were achieving high performance and really just latching on to some of the traits that they would have, or the way that they communicated, or if I liked a certain sentence or a way to pitch some kind of solution, then I'd bring that into my own style. I actually found myself like weirdly copying people a little bit too much. I was like, it's anything like, I'm starting to sound like this guy two seats down.

But where did that come— where Where did that come from for you to make that decision of like, you know what, I'm going to try and— like, even though you could have, you could have had a bit of an ego at that point, right? And go, well, people should be listening to me and taking things from what I'm saying.

Yeah.

Because I'm the top performer in the company. So like, where— like, why did you make that decision that, right, okay, I'm going to try and pick up as much as I can from the people around me and try and make that my own? Like, where did— why did you decide to, to have that approach?

I'd say like, so the leaders of the business are people that are very much our mentors, and I aspire to be— they have very different traits and characteristics, but I take a lot from both of them in terms of their styles. And that sort of, that drive, that ambition, that across that first year, that's what ultimately helped me get to that point. At that point, I'd had a good 4 months leading up to it, but ultimately across that year, I was just gathering and I was listening to everything and just trying to replicate what I saw other people around me doing. I think I'm also someone that I do react well under a pressure situation. I think I actually broke my wrist in March of that year, which was not ideal. I mean, I think I was like voice typing emails into the laptop and stuff, which was, so it's a sort of bit of a setback, put me in quite a difficult spot because I think I got to about April or May and had done like 30 or 40K, so I was not on the target. And I remember having a conversation with one of my bosses, and it was like, right, now's the time to really sort of, you know, go for it. You've got to show us, because we understand you've had this problem. Don't worry, it's not bad culture. But, you know, I agreed as well, and it was like, okay, I've got to show what you can add to the team now, what your value is. And I think from that moment onwards, it sparked me on. And I've had a couple of these, like, gear changes all throughout my time at Fraser Dove, where Yeah, that next piece just spurs me on to the next one.

What do you feel like it took you to feel like, actually, maybe I'm not maximising my potential here? I don't know, did you have, did you feel like you needed those moments for someone to go, look, you're capable of way more, like, let's kick on?

Yeah.

Or is it, or over time, is it actually more come from within where it's like, right now let's push on on these things?

I think it's definitely a combination of multiple factors. I think I was aware of After I had that really good year and I started to pick things up, I was like, okay, I've got, I've got a good understanding here. And I could feel I was having good calls with clients and I was connecting people and almost found my craft in a sense. And I was like, I can really enjoy this role and I can get into it. But you also need the right backing from leadership and your mentors to sort of give you the confidence to say, like, you're someone that's got potential to do this, but, you know, you've got to be able to take on the constructive criticism in that sense and not just be like, I'm the best, this is going to work out if I keep doing the same, it's just always going to be this way. Always looking to evolve and adapt in the role. And so yeah, I finished that year, it was great. I was like, here we go, let's, let's do it again, let's improve for the next year. And then that was 2020, so that was COVID. So I was like, oh okay, different, whole different situation now. And actually, you know, put your hands up, but that was actually a time I really just struggled, like in terms of Not maybe personally, but from a business perspective. I think a lot of other people—

In terms of like your performance or like— Yeah.

And I really, I'm not a fan of working from home.

What do you struggle most? What was it working from home?

I really thrive off of the buzz of being around people, and I get inspired by hearing other people doing well in their role. And if I hear positivity or if I hear someone else doing something great, I want to implement that into my own work. And all of a sudden I was just completely isolated and like every bit of motivation would have to come from me. And it weirdly, it sort of got me back to a time when I'd maybe have to be revising for—

Revising.

Yeah.

That is not fun.

No. And that's obviously I didn't do particularly well within that education. I did okay, but not maybe didn't push myself as hard. And I— it's something that I've got a lot better at now. I'm able to operate quite well within that space because I know that I set myself certain goals and targets that I've got to hit.

But, um, so it was a difficult year.

Yeah, it was a difficult year. I mean, I say it was, it was a difficult year for everyone, of course. It was, from like a billings perspective, it just stayed neutral. So I did the same number or thereabouts. So it wasn't a bad year. Yeah, I think just because of my competitive nature and drive to want to succeed, I was, I was like, that's annoying. I could have had a, could have had a great year there, but Um, that was good.

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Yeah, so I would be doing, yeah, a full 360 role. Um, I'd get some support. So let's say I've got maybe between, I don't know, 5 and 8 live roles. I'd maybe be able to pass on one or two of those to other people who have joined the business recently and are working just purely in that research. Yeah, exactly.

So let's just get a bit granular here. What's been the most effective way that you found to, like, be successful at business development and be successful at developing those client relationships, do you think?

For me, the most successful way, um, is, is understanding the value of the network and understanding the value of the network that you build and the people that you keep close to you. So if you were to say, how do you business develop well? The broader answer is you have to do a lot of, a little of everything, basically. You have to cover the board. So, you know, there are speculative introductions, there are dialing out to people, making calls here and there. I do something where I could, like, a compounding network strategy where I schedule in reminders, of course, to catch up with people over certain periods of time to make sure that I'm staying in touch with that close network, and that for me has been the most effective one.

Compounding network, talking about that, that's interesting. So obviously you're saying that basically what I take from that, but you talk me through it, is if I do these things every single day, every single week, over time it's going to compound and, and have a huge impact or to get me to where I need to.

Exactly, yeah. And I, you know, I have it where you know, a relationship should never be transactional. So if I'm not gaining something out of it now, that— and, and I only see— if I only see it that way, it's going to impact me very, very negatively from a BD perspective, because I'm only going to be in the moment of every single call. I've had relationships where I've had to catch up with someone every month for 13, 14 months, and within the last 2 weeks, something's finally dropped, and sure, it's been worth that time. And so that's my networking strategy. So I have regular check-ins and I automate them. So people do this naturally in recruitment, they just have it in their mind that I need to call this person. I'm not wired that way necessarily as well as some people, I don't think, and I need the reminders. So I'll either just have it scheduled in my diary or I'll actually schedule the call in with them to catch up, whether it be on a monthly, bimonthly, quarterly basis. Following a good networking discussion or talking to people. And yeah, I just find that as a really, really key tool. And if you just did that, it might work for you to some extent, but it's really about combining, finding what works for you and combining it with lots of other different ways.

So just talk to me a bit, like, why would I give you my time on a monthly basis?

Yeah, that's a really good question. Time on a monthly basis comes from being able to add value to conversations. I have, again, come back to mentors, leaders of the business. I've always been given the right sort of message around this networking piece, and something I've been focused on is becoming a key opinion leader within my space.

Okay.

I focus within a very niche market, and I'm specialized within that area, and would go out to say that I work with a good percentage of the market or the people that I'd want to work with within my space. It is a bit smaller than some of the other functions across our business, but because of that, you know, I've got that sort of inch-wide, mile-deep knowledge of the industry. And every time I can connect with people, it's not transactional, it's not about, you know, how can I help them, or, you know, are they looking for support in a role. A lot of the time I'm looking to go into these conversations and add value to them and look to share market trends. And if there's an opportunity to discuss solutions, because particularly within our market, within the life sciences right now, we're going through a very turbulent period. There's a lot of activity, there's a lot of growth. We're seeing this across other industries as well. And so these partners need your solutions. They do need our support. It is as straightforward as that. But that doesn't warrant you the work or the opportunity to work with them. You've got to give them a reason to work or partner with them. And also the reason, as you said, to connect with them on a quarterly basis or a bimonthly, whatever it may be. So making sure that you come to the conversation, you know, giving 2 pieces of information and maybe understanding 1 piece back or something like that. I don't really go in with that sort of structure.

No, I mean, yeah, because I think that's what people would be thinking, right? Okay, well, what, like, because like you said, I think this is the, like, I really, I just love the way that you're talking about being consultative. You're like trying to add value and you're leading with that. And like you said, you're not transactional, which I absolutely absolutely, absolutely love. So just, just find a bit on that because I think it'll be useful for people. Like, what, what might be like a market trend that you might share? Because again, people go, okay, well, like, what, what does that even look like? Is it you're saying, you know, like, have you noticed that X company has recently, um, got funding? I don't know, like, what, what, what might that market trend look like?

So there's something for, for us that we're aware of. So within our life sciences market, which is for people that might not know, it covers pharmaceuticals, biologics, medical device, and it's also a funny industry that I work in called outsourcing, which I won't go into now. But for example, within the life sciences industry, there are 98% of companies are hiring over the next 5 years. Okay. So that's ridiculous growth.

That's, that's not—

the whole market is hiring. So everyone's hiring for the same talent. I'd love to say we can help everyone find the jobs that they're looking for, but it's It's a huge market out there, of course. So one of the things that I'll always come into the conversation is, you know, what is your employer value proposition? And how do you, how are you currently taking your brand to the market? What is your talent, you know, attraction strategy? Is this something that you've considered? What we're seeing in the space is that, you know, your competitors are doing X, Y, and Z. We're also helping potential competitors do X, Y, Z through these solutions. I'm bringing this to your attention because if you don't get ahead of the curve, you're going to face challenges in the next, you know, 3, 6, 12 months. So it's not— and it's just giving them actual real-world examples of what's going on.

Which you're just picking up by being in your niche, speaking to people, seeing what people are doing, doing the networking.

Yeah, asking the right questions, and, you know, and hearing things internally. You know, I hear someone else say that and I take it with me, I go to the next place and I do a bit of research on it to, you know, validate it. I'm also always, you know, looking into the market, understanding what acquisitions have taken place, etc. Um, so yeah, that's my—

I love that. Yeah, because I know, because a lot, a lot of people struggle with this, of like, they may think that in order for them to go into that conversation and add value, you'd have to be the life sciences expert, or you'd have to know as much as they do about outsourcing. Yeah, you get what I mean? And actually, what you're talking about is, well, no, I don't, I'm not talking to them about that. I'm saying, I'm like, you said, the talent, um, talent strategy, the things you're seeing in other markets, everyone's hiring, what you're doing to stand out, how, how is your brand perceived in the market, and they're the types of things that you can bring to their attention, bring to the table, that is really valuable.

Yeah.

Um, so, okay, so one thing I had to ask you, like, I saw it on your LinkedIn, and this may be more recent, but it says that you actively speak to like the C-suite and really senior people, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. How have you, like, how have you dealt with not feeling like an imposter in those conversations? Yeah, because I'm sure I speak— I, like, I've interviewed a lot of young people and this seems to be like a really big roadblock for them. I don't know if you've seen this, where they would have been studying a couple of weeks ago and then after, like, 2, 3 weeks later, they're speaking to a CEO or whatever and they're like, oh my God, yeah, this— but like, who am I? I've got no credibility at all to speak to this person. Have you had to deal with that?

Yeah, do you know what, the timing, I've literally had a call this morning with a C-suite member, a CEO actually of an organization. We've worked with this business for a long time, but it was a new discussion with someone at that level. And it comes down to, you know, understanding there's peer-to-peer communication. Preparation is key. You know, if you go into those calls and you expect everything to go very smoothly, and without the right preparation or having the right knowledge about the market or without your space, you will find some challenges. So, what I'd imagine maybe some people might say is, you know, you can't just go in on your first week and just think that it's going to be perfect at the C-suite level. Making sure that you're going on with those calls with people, I would say, and sort of pairing up on discussions with C-suite. Not always going to get the chance, but let's say it's a commercial call. Where you're working to potentially partner with a client or something along those lines. I think being a part of the conversation with someone else and being that sponge for the first couple of weeks or months, however long it takes, that's definitely a good idea because you can really start to, you know, understand the kind of language, the communication, the structure of the conversation. And then it does come with time. Naturally, you know, you might get a little bit nervous going into these calls. I think that's always natural, but you have to understand people are human, and I think also So, you know, if you've got the confidence that you're going into this conversation knowing that, one, they're either a candidate and that they are looking for an opportunity, or that they are a potential partner or an existing partner with a real problem, then they need to speak to you. And, you know, whether you're winning business or trying to, and you're trying to be the selected partner, you know, you've still got a solution, something to present to them. And yeah, I think just being on the same level and treating them with respect.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, 100%.

Interesting. So again, getting a bit granular here, but like how you said earlier around how you had some highs today, some like lows and challenges, like I'd love to hear your take at the moment on like how you're navigating the sort of candidate landscape and market. So speaking to countless people, recruiters at the moment where like crazy counteroffer stories, they're finding it really hard to get people over the line, candidates are spoilt for choice. Like you just said, 98% of your market, whoever is going to be hiring over the next 3 to 5 years, so these people that you're speaking to, building relationships with, must be spoilt for choice and must have a lot of people trying to grab their attention, make them curious enough to speak to them. How are you finding this at the moment and what things do you keep top of mind to make sure that you have more actual placements actually happen rather than falling out and having those rough days in recruitment that everyone has?

Yeah, it's a really good point. So you have to get as close as you possibly can to the candidate, so you've got to understand everything about their world, about what's important to them. We've had some really interesting examples. One of the downs from today is maybe going through that experience, but you can sort of foresee these things happening in the market now, you know, counter-offers are kind of an expected thing, you know, it's going to be happening. I've had a really good case study of it today within my team where, you know, by really tying into, you know, understanding, you know, what it is this individual wants from their next career step, understanding their motivations from very, very early on in the process, having complete transparency with communication around other offers that might be on the table, you know, acknowledging the fact, particularly within this case, it was the offer that we had was lower than some of the other offers. So, financially a lesser offer, but we've managed to close the candidate. And that comes down to understanding that individual, investing your time in. It does require putting in some extra time or some extra hours, maybe taking an out-of-hours call if they're in the US or something like that. But ultimately, these are all the 1% improvements you can make to give yourself that much closer personal tie to the individual. And I think right now in this market, and I know obviously just life sciences, but I know it'll be the same across others as well, if everyone's just looking to offer more money, then nobody's offering anything different. So, you know, emphasizing the benefits, the reasons why they wanted to relocate or move in the first place, and trying to look beyond just the financial aspect as to decision-making for that candidate. That's going to give you the edge, I think, in this market at the moment.

I love that. And again, it comes back to that point of not being transactional, right? Yeah. And I think also, I guess you've got to be honest in the fact that if you catch on very early that that person you're speaking to is very much just driven about finances, then be transparent about that and ask those questions that maybe you don't want to hear the answer to.

Yeah, you've got to ask the hard questions. You know, how do you feel accepting an offer that's going to be financially lower than what you're receiving elsewhere? And get a real feel for it. I think, you know, in this case it was a good outcome. Some people are just going to chase the money, but it will give you a better chance. So how—

and then I want to make sure, like, before we finish then, so how have you found that a really difficult period to a lot of recruiters I speak to, they aspire to be in management, leadership, then when they're on that journey they just find it, they find it really difficult.

Yeah.

Uh, how's it been for you? Like, I know obviously it's been like a gradual journey, whereas some people may find themselves going from like not really managing anyone to managing like 4 or 5 people, right? But how— what are some of the things that maybe you've had to work on or change in your approach that you feel has made you, or is on helping you on the journey of management and leadership?

Um, so I talked about it earlier, it's the changing of gears for me. So it— and this is not just from a like a, I'm going to have a higher output, or I'm just going to do more of this. I think you actually have to change your own personality quite a lot. You've got to change the way that you behave and interact with your team. I think if you try and continue maybe some of previous relationships that you've had with certain colleagues or whatever, and just hope that that will transition nicely into this next role, that might not work out best for you. That's something you have to have a bit of a step up in maturity. I'm also 8 months into the role solidly, so yeah, if you're looking for sort of leadership experience advice, there's definitely people out there better qualified, but from my perspective, you know, not everyone, as you said, is suited for that management role. I think definitely be aware of your leaders, for people that, you know, working within organisations, understand that you've got to have the right sort of guidance and leadership. And that it's not going to be the right step if you're just the highest performer to take that step up into a management role.

Is it something that you wanted to go into then? Was you quite motivated?

It was something that I was definitely open to considering, and the thing that I'm grateful for Fraser Dove offering is there's always been this flexibility to sort of say, we're going to give you this responsibility, we'll see how you take it on, but it might not necessarily be the path. Let's work it out. And fortunately right now it's going well. But my management style is leadership through high performance. So I try not— I don't get really involved in the day-to-day pushing of, you know, KPIs and really getting down. Of course, we have KPIs within the business, and I encourage the team to get alongside those. But for me, it's about showcasing what high performance looks like, having success in my role, and then coaching and mentoring the people around me to sort of level up and develop within their own positions.

It's like leading by example.

Exactly, yeah. I tried to get away from that term of like management and more just sort of leadership.

Yeah, I love that. So a couple of things again, going a bit granular here, but people, this is the stuff that people want me to ask, right? Yeah, sure. Talk to me about what does a typical day plan look like for you? In terms of like talking about how you want to lead by high performance. So what does like a perfect day look like for you that you think gives you the best chance of having that high performance? Yeah, we want details here.

Yeah, no, I'll go for it. I'll break it down. But a perfect day, they come around sometimes. They're not always available. So I think that's the first thing. Just be aware that not every recovery is perfect. Yeah, sure. Not everyone has a perfect day. But my perfect day would be coming in and on a Monday I'll always have an agenda for the week and I'll always be really, really thorough with my planning. So I've got to know exactly what I've got to do and ideally the timeframes, the dates in which I've got to deliver it by.

Okay.

So my, let's say I'm middle of the week, I'm looking at my agenda, I'm looking at things that I've got checked off, some of the things that have also come into my world over the last couple of days, and I'm really prioritizing what I need to tackle first. Not losing sight of business development for administrative activities.

Yeah.

And really setting out a plan. I probably do maybe 20 minutes of planning every day.

Okay.

Just to make sure that—

What, at the end of the day, the beginning of the day?

Yeah, I probably should be a bit better at it. I should probably make some notes from the night before. I think I'm always jotting some bits down.

Okay.

But I usually come in like 15 minutes before my official day kicks off, get 20 minutes of planning down. Then I would do a bit of initial research, looking in the markets. My mornings are usually booked actually with quite a lot of pre-booked calls. So, it might be that I'm doing maybe second candidate regis for people within my team, networking calls, you know, generally sort of 30 minutes at a time. And I'm also, within those gaps, I'm doing market research.

So— What does that mean?

I'm looking online onto different websites, news websites that are specific to my market and my niche. And sort of gathering an idea of what's going on within the space. And of course, I'm gathering the information from the people that, you know, I'm speaking to on the calls in the morning.

Yeah.

We go through, again, maybe do a few administrative tasks, might be sending out some CVs, might be calling out to a few people that we have on the system, checking in with some people in my close network. Takes me up to lunch. Yeah, what do I have for lunch? Sushi today, that was good. And then, yeah, come back around about 1 o'clock, and usually the afternoon is quite busy for me because I work globally, but I do work— I have a heavier percentage within the US or North American market.

So you work a bit later?

Yeah, I do. Not all the way back, it sort of flexes from day to day, so it's not always the same. But yeah, I typically in that time, and then connecting with the US market at 8 o'clock their time on the East Coast, starting to do a few pitch calls. These are going to be between 45 minutes to an hour. These are going to be pitches booked in by myself, but also we call them like partner pitches where my team have brought in the leads and I help develop or business develop them with them.

Is that where you're pitching the different solutions that you have?

Yeah, so we have, you know, we are definitely a business that we grow and develop our staff. A lot of companies do out there, of course, But, you know, not everyone's ready to jump on a pitch and deliver executive search solutions from the moment that they move into a search consultant role. So partner pitching with someone like myself that has a lot of experience and understands the range of solutions that we can offer, I join them to help them in their development as, you know, consultant moving into senior principal consultant. So yeah, finishing up the day, a few business development activities. I'd like to do some maybe speculative introductions to my close network. Sharing great talent that I've been speaking to over the course of the week. And yeah, usually a few other calls, something gets crazy at the end of the day, and then all of a sudden it's 6 o'clock.

I love it. So, may or may not have picked up on this, but I'm speaking to a lot of recruiters that are really putting a lot of resource, effort into going to the US. Yeah. Anything that you pick, like, how would you describe the opportunity over there? So typically what I hear is perception of the recruitment industry seems to be way better in the US. Placements in terms of fees, higher typically.

Yeah.

And then also it seems like people are just way more open to being sold to, or like these types of things. So how have you found, because it seems like you've operated in a few different parts of the world, how would you describe the US opportunity and maybe some of the nuances?

Yeah, the market's definitely more alive. You compare the US to somewhere like Germany, you've got a 2-week notice period versus a 6 6-month notice period. You know, some places in Switzerland we've seen people with a whole 12 months notice before they can leave the role. So very, very different markets when you look to compare them. And because of that, there is a bit more of an openness for people to move. You have completely different cultures. So, yeah, like entirely. And even across the US, you get different cultures across different states. The US market is just a little bit more active. For us, you know, I get the, obviously, just the view of the life sciences. So we, it's very, very candidate-driven at the moment. A lot of the people that I work with are leading manufacturing facilities that are making COVID vaccines. You know, we had one partner makes 600 million vials in a year type thing, and I've got to identify the individual that's going to be running that manufacturing facility.

Oh wow.

That skill set is very sought after, as you can imagine, because everyone's trying to, you know, manufacture these vaccines that have been developed, and it's something that will continue over time. So when you're working in that kind of competitive market, it's something that's not only the top of your industry but actually on, you know, the news every day, and it's the top of the market. It does add a different level of, um, yeah, of how competitive it is, for sure. So In order to get ahead, you do have to be very, very creative. That's when your network, you know, has to play into your hands. You have to be able to utilize the people close to you, ask for referrals, because a lot of people are going to be looking for the same talent. And if you're trying to apply the same solutions or, you know, trying to apply the same reach-outs, you're going to, you know, find it hard. I love that.

So as you come to, to the end here then, um, obviously I think I told you, didn't I, that I was going to message Oh no, but no, I reached out to Thomas, obviously the, the one of the, the founders, and spoke really, really highly of you. And one of the things that he said that he absolutely loved about you, so I just wanted to sort of end it towards here really, was he said one of the things I absolutely love about Harry is his growth mindset. Is that something that you feel like you've developed, got better at having, have always had? Because I think if more and more people listen to this, or more and more people in industry had more of a growth mindset, there's just way more chance that they're going to be able to achieve their goals and maximize their potential. So I'll just, I'll just interested to get your thoughts on your journey with that, if that's something that one of your mentors has really highlighted.

Yeah, I, and yeah, thank you, Thomas, for that. I really appreciate that. Um, I, yeah, I think There's naturally, in people that are in high-performance roles, you'll find a natural ability to be able to start to develop, and it might just be at the very early stages, but have that growth mindset. But in order to fully, you know, develop as a consultant in the world of recruitment, you've got to be able to give 100%, you've got to absolutely apply yourself to every situation, you've got to be able to see the positivity in things. Gotta have that resilience, as I mentioned. You also got to have the right mentors in place that are going to say, you are capable of this. You don't know it yet, but you can actually do that. And I've had that across my time. I remember transitioning from, yeah, like last year alone, it was something like, my target went from 240 to 350.

Yeah.

And then, oh my God, and then I think I ended up on like a 550 year.

Wow.

I've, out of And I was like, if I wasn't told, if I wasn't set that bar, then I don't know whether I would have gone for it. I think naturally I'd like to say I would, but you need someone else going, you are capable of this. The market is here. If you apply yourself, we're going to give you this resource to support you in your development. Then yeah, anything is possible. So yeah, that's definitely the way that I sort of see things.

It's been a pleasure. Cool. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much. Cheers.

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