Headhunting, Career Future Proofing & How To Succeed In The US Market with Gareth Fox at Magnifind.

I couldn't give two monkeys what anybody thinks or what other business owners think about Magnifind, if I'm being honest. Who we serve and who we do give a monkey's ass about are our clients, the candidates we work with, and of course our employees.

Gareth Fox, Managing Director of Magnifind. After 5 years of building a successful recruitment career in another business, he joined his business partner Rick just over 2 years ago. He's built a successful track record in the States consistently for the past 5 years. Here's how he did it.

So if someone's saying I'm knackered or I'm not feeling well, it's like literally just look after yourself first. You know, if you don't look after your health, that's where things start to kind of go backwards.

Here is what you're going to learn in this week's episode: why all recruiters should develop new business skills.

So I just think everyone should be taught new business from, from the get-go, purely for the fact that, that, you know, that is the toughest part of the job.

How to effectively headhunt passive candidates on the phone.

Headhunting is finding passive talent, right? You know, they're the ones who respond to your first inmail with their resume, you know, respectfully or disrespectfully.

How to turn transactional relationships into a sponsor that can help you open up client doors?

I'd always say the strongest relationships are referrals based, 100%. Referrals are king, right? You know, if someone says, this guy's done a great job for me for 3 years, you know, I couldn't recommend him high enough, that they will listen to that person and give you a shot.

The difference between the EU and US markets and how to win in the US.

There's maybe things that you don't naturally pick up on that, you know, you're doing in your lifestyle that is kind of building, naturally building relationships, but it's, it's, it's not forced.

So let's get into this week's episode. Jaz, welcome to the podcast.

Nice one for having me, Hishem.

So we, we've known each other for a little while now, so, um, I'm looking forward to this, like unpacking this entrepreneurial journey that you've been on. We've met a couple of times Obviously first met you when he was at Finley James. Uh, we did a few things together, um, with Recruitment Mentors, uh, while she was in America. We met for coffee when he was in London, I think, in the process of getting your visa and things. And we're now here, mate. We're going to unpack this, this journey that you've been on, um, over the last couple of years. And I know there's going to be a lot that people can learn from. But yeah, really looking forward to it, mate.

Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me, as I say. And, uh, yeah. How times have changed since we, we first met. So looking forward to getting into it with you.

So let's, um, so you, you very kindly just given me a bunch of context, um, so let's just give everyone a bit of context on your business Magnifind, um, that, uh, your business partners with— you call him Rick, right?

Yeah, Rick.

Yeah, awesome, mate. So, and you also work with your brother, which I think is pretty cool. Um, always, always respect families working together. I think, I think that, I think that's really cool. Um, so let me break some of this down, and if I get any of this wrong, please correct me.

Um, go for it.

So I'm gonna go from 2022, and we're talking the numbers we put down here. Is this dollars or pounds?

GBP. So, you know, the issue is, is, you know, we do use Vincere, uh, so it keeps the numbers live, and the exchange rates of 2022 were astronomically high. Yeah, so once you've— once we've documented the numbers and moved on, we've then obviously looked at the average deal size, and the average deal size actually seems like it increased in 2022 when it didn't. It was much lower, um, because of the volume of deals. But yeah, yeah, the numbers are reasonably accurate. Some people may try and call them out, but we know them.

It just gives people context. So yeah, so we've got here, Jan to September 2022, 565K GDP. And then your average deal size is around £12,500-£13,000, give or take.

Yeah.

And then Jan 2023, so this is like— is it—

sorry, this is 4 years, so that'll be October 1st, '22 to September '23.

Got you. Yeah, £4,700-£5,600.

Yeah, across 25 deals. Yeah.

And then average fee £19k, um, around that. Yeah. So you got 2022, 33 placements, 2023, 25 placements.

Yeah, I mean, 2022 was the Wild West, that wasn't it? I think anybody, you know, if you, if you couldn't recruit in 2022, you shouldn't be recruiting.

And then obviously it's you and Rick, and then your brother, um, joined you, uh, as well. And he's in more like going to be going into this more like account manager role, but more on like the delivery side. Is that fair?

Yes, that's fair to say. Yeah, 100%.

Um, and then also kindly shared obviously all perm a good chunk of it, like 80% contingent, rest sort of exclusive. And a big chunk of your revenue has always been in the US, first year, second year, and that's gonna seem like continue to be the, the case, uh, this year as well in the third year.

Yeah, we've made two placements outside of the US, uh, not from, uh, I mean, naturally, but when you're here, you do pick up more work here. Why that is that, I don't know. But, uh, yeah, just things haven't come to fruition in Europe for us as quick as we'd like. Although we do have work there.

And yeah, you're joining me from Chicago, which is home for you, right?

Yes, now based in Chicago, as I was prior, but when, when setting up Magnifine, I had to do a detour back to the UK. And as you said, I think I actually met you on the day I resecured my visa when we went for, uh, for brunch. So yeah, I've been back here now since August 31st, and, um, you know, fully settled and thriving.

Love it. So yeah, loads to, to cover here and want to go into. So where, where I want to start is I want to start with your mindset on this, which is you wrote down here why everyone should be taught new business. Talk to me about that, because I know there's a lot of businesses that don't have people that do new business at all and they just stay on the delivery side. Um, so just talk to me about that. Why, why have we written down that? Why do, why do we think that? Why do you think everyone should be taught new business?

Yeah, so I just think everyone should be taught new business from, from the get-go, purely for the fact that, that, you know, that is the toughest part of the job. Um, so I appreciate you need credibility with customers whilst kind of going into meetings or pitches with them, but it's, it's where, as we've seen in 2023, it's where businesses truly got exposed and got hurt, right? You know, and if you've got people, if you've got 80% of a business that can't go out there and win business, that long term it's going to hurt you, right? Um, so I think it gets them out of their comfort zone, it gets them thinking about the, you know, the, the longer-term picture of the business, but also it stops them from thinking— it sounds wrong— but thinking they're better than what they are. Because if you're just a delivery consultant thriving on making placements, it, it is on paper an easy job to do, Hishem. So I think obviously you need to give them the tougher part of the role as well from the early stages of their career.

And I also think as well, from all the conversations I've had, and like, yeah, like you just said, a lot of businesses were affected in the ways that you just mentioned. Um, but like, also, if you're listening to this and you really want to build a recruitment career, which is probably part of why you're listening to this, but I don't know how you feel about this, but also, like, by leaning into this it does— it can future-proof your career in this industry if you, if you have that skill set. Like, you can future-proof your career rather than being someone that— yeah, like, you may really enjoy the, the delivery side and that's something you want to stay in, and you've maybe always shied away to doing the new business or the account management or expanding accounts, whatever. But like, you are going to make yourself vulnerable. I feel like this is also like a good thing to think about, and it is like a great skill that you can take in so many different directions in your career, if it's outside of recruitment, whatever. But I think it also can future-proof your career in recruitment.

You can future-proof it. But even for people that— especially in my industry, Hishem, like SaaS sales, right? I would say the people that have gone out there and been the most successful, uh, you know, I can think of a few at the top of my head now without mentioning any names, are top performers within SaaS companies because of the, the ruthlessness and the relentlessness of recruitment business development they taught, that it seems that they've gone into SaaS sales and absolutely walked it. So it's, um, yeah, future-proof, I would say, absolutely. But it also leans into being self-aware, because if you are great at delivery and great at account management and not necessarily winning new business, and it kind of deflates you and gets you down that you've got to make, you know, 60 calls and put out 50 messages to, to even get a meeting booked it, you know, play to your strengths. But that also means that when you're interviewing for future roles down the line, you can be honest, right? Because I think as business leaders, what we found interviewing people are kind of coming to us saying, yeah, we win net new logo business, blahdy blahdy blah. But the reality is, is that they're placing on handed accounts, so they're not a net new logo hunter.

So, Gaz, what was your— let's talk about this and like, what was your relationship with generating net new clients before you went on this entrepreneurial journey? Because obviously you was at Finney James for a good amount of time, so it would have been very easy for you to have existing accounts you built up over time. I'm assuming this— I might be wrong here, but that might have been a muscle that you haven't really had to like, you know, work on maybe leading before. And I speak to a lot of independent founders who that is sometimes what they're concerned about. It's like, shit, like I've got to, you know, get winning new business. I haven't done this as much for a little while. So what was your relationship with what we're talking about before you joined Rick?

Exactly that. Uh, so yeah, I mean, obviously I did. They had no bullshit. I mean, it was literally— I would— I was there, what, for 5 years? So there's a lot of people that was coming to us from referred business, you know, we was prospecting. You'd spec out candidates and you wouldn't hear for 3 months and they'd just magically come back to you. By no means or feat was I an aggressive BDer. Um, so I, you know, I'll hold my hands up like anyone and, you know, again, be self-aware. So was that an element of risk? Yes. But did I back myself completely? Yes, which is why I took the leap to go self-employed with Rick. But also on that note is, you know, myself and Rick had worked together previously, you know. So the situation was I knew I was okay at business development, okay, but I knew Rick was a beast, right? So if all else failed, I could be the delivery guy and he could be the BD guy. So it's again this case of playing to our strengths and weaknesses, and that's And that kind of took the elimination of risk of us starting a partnership because again, we had that joy of spending I think maybe 18 months together or working together for 2 years and very successfully, may I add. So it was kind of like a no-brainer when we was entertaining conversations with one another. But yeah, once you're in it, you're in it. You do become better. And I would probably say I'm probably just as strong as Rick is on BD now. 2 and a half years in.

Yeah, because I find— yeah, and like, like, I'm not— I appreciate being honest because I know I speak, I speak to a lot of founders where they're like, shit, yeah, I've got to like now really, yeah, like lean into this, isn't something— because of course, like, if you do progress the ranks in the company, then there's a good chance that like you've brought on some good accounts, you've got existing relationships, you know what I mean? So it hasn't been something that's maybe been as required, um, for you to do.

Yeah.

So Let's just talk about this then, because I feel like you have been on a bit of a journey on this over the last 2 years where, like you said, you actually— if you were to take a step back now and yeah, compare your skills with Rick, hopefully he'd agree that actually, no, I'm up there. Like, I'm as capable, um, and a good performer. Because I'll be honest, I— why I asked that as well, hopefully this doesn't annoy you and he won't mind me sharing this, but I remember Speaking to Nick and saying like, oh, like, what is Gaz world-class at? I don't know, we were just chatting and he was like, mate, he's like so good on the delivery side, account management. So yeah, like, I, I, yeah, maybe, yeah, like your reputation wasn't like, Gaz is like great opening up doors, net new logos, and then now this is the, like, you've, you've had to, that is something you've had to do as, as a founder, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a fair comment as well. I mean, account management, leadership, running a team, getting the best out of people, Um, you know, that was my strong suit. I wasn't a hardcore BDer. I mean, in that instance, you know, Nick was my Rick. So yeah, Nick was my Rick. I'm saying that the right way around. So yeah, uh, so yeah, he is. And look, we, we still speak pretty much every day as well. So, uh, yeah, I think even, you know, in our historic company, they both pretty much did the similar job, Rick and Nick, and were both very, very good at it. So yeah, I'd say, I'd say that's a fair comment. But again, taking that leap of faith into a new company, you can't just rely on Rick. I knew I would have to up my game and level my game, which I, again, I have over the last 2 and a half years.

So let's talk about that then, because this is often for— if you're someone that is listening to this, you're in your recruitment career, you're, uh, started your own business, like everything is downstream from having good quality clients that you're able to work with. Like, if you're able to consistently do that, you're going to be in pretty good shape. Um, so why don't I— why don't we just start it by framing it in this way, in terms of like, if we've got a bit of a background on where Gaz was at, uh, before you started this journey with Rick, and then where you are now, what were some of the— what have been some of the fundamental things that you've maybe like changed with your approach, or that you now do consistently, religiously, that maybe you didn't do when you first joined Rick, that you had to learn the hard way? What have been some of the big shifts that you've made towards your new business approach?

So I get being consistent. I know that's a very common one, but it's like just making sure that you actually do it. But again, being a business owner, that can also be contradictory because you've also got to follow your job flow, being a 3-person business, right? So you've got to be consistent, even if it's— I plain and simply, and this sounds pathetic, it's not even on our CRM. I just have a Google Doc with anyone that I've placed, spoke to, moves. Just, it's just all about keeping your eye on activity, on active leads, and I'm just making sure that I'm very active with them. And of course asking for, asking for referrals. So it's just instead of seeing a movement in the market and, you know, thinking I'll do this search and I'll go to it, it's kind of acting a little bit more on it there and then. So then, you know, they are seeing your face on a common basis and putting that message in. I mean, and, and that's typically how you open doors. It's just having certain processes in place and, and times when you feel it's necessary, necessary to complete. Or in some cases, times where they, you know, for instance, Thanksgiving, I sent out maybe, what, 200 text messages and It was just plain and simple. And I thought, I'm going to put 2 hours aside to do this. And on the back of that, you know, I signed 3 new customers. So it's just like, you know, sometimes thinking inside the box but outside the box.

It sounds like, like, very relationship-focused is your approach.

It is, it is. Because, you know, 20— speccing out, you of course win business from speccing out, and that's the, the classic for recruiters, right? But it's, it's dying a death. I mean, there's too much automation out there. You've got to be yourself, I believe, in today's market to be successful. Um, it's, it's easy to build a cadence and it's easy to press play, and look, it does work, but there's just too many people doing it. So I would say relationship-focused and, and leaning on referrals, relationships, and again Following the market, keeping the market, keeping your hand on movement, people who are moving, just live and acting fast and being one of the first in the door.

So let me ask you this, guys, because I think anyone that listens to this, they'll hear that word relationships a lot. And like, how would you— to try and make this like practical for people, like how— if I had to, like, if there was two names in your contact book, one person you'd say, you know, I have a really good relationship with them, and then another person you're like, you know, I'm working on them. I wouldn't say like we have a great relationship, um, but we might have spoken, um, once or twice. Like, you know, how— what are the— what makes that different? Like, how would you define like a great relationship? Do you know what I mean? Because I think this is helpful for people to like just think about that. Like, how do you think about that? What makes someone you say, I have a really great relationship with this person? Do you think?

It's someone that you probably end up speaking to more as an industry friend than keeping it overly professional at all times, if that makes sense. So it's like, literally, you could call them and they'll probably, you know, let's say for instance they do not answer, within 3 hours, 2 hours, 1 hour, they'll text you and just say, look, busy, let's catch up tomorrow. They're on it, you know, they don't want to let you down. And they don't want you to feel like they've not seen or heard your approach. Whereas I'd say a tier 2 contact would be biweekly contact. And as you can hear, I'm very Mancunian and I don't really tone it down. So it's not that I don't talk to them in a different way, but the level of contact on text or kind of email will probably be less casual and more formal and less frequent. Um, and I, I couldn't really differentiate it much more than that. And there's also pockets of time where these contacts, you know, need you more than, than others. So it's a case of you speak to them as and when, as much as you need to, right? It's, um, it's kind of knowing how often and frequent they like to be contacted, because some— there are some hiring managers you can make great relationships with and, and form a strong relationship, make good money and continuous money throughout the year. But if you do annoy them with too frequent contact or being too controlling of a process, then they lose interest and they'll probably move on to a more relaxed recruiter. So I think it's more about understanding who they are as a person as well, to put them in the tier 1 and tier 2 contact buckets.

So two things here then. I think that's that. I think you broke that down really well, actually. I like how you framed that. So first thing, if you were to look at a subsection of your tier 1 relationships— yes, how does the relationship often start? Is it, I've got a job for you guys, I really want to speak to you? Is it, you got, you know, an internal, uh, like a referral, like you may have, like, you know, had one of their friends? Was it that you actually worked on, like, a job requirement with them and worked on a process? How, like, how does it typically start, do you think?

I'd always say the strongest relationships are referrals-based, 100%. Um, you know, we have some great clients, great spenders that we've done again from the typical speccing in and, you know, canvassing or chasing leads. And but referrals are king, right? You know, someone says, this guy's done a great job for me for 3 years, you know, I couldn't recommend him high enough, that they will listen to that person and give you a shot. I mean, 90% of the time— I got referred into a company 3 months ago, tried again in February, and we still not cracked it, and we had the strongest referral ever. But in the main, I would say referred business is key, because I would also say the type of person you're dealing with is referring you to somebody that is similar to them. And if you have a good synergy with, with that individual, the chances are you're going to pick up and replicate that synergy with that other individual. Um, same happened, I think it was Monday or Tuesday, I had a guy at an expo in, in Barcelona and he got a referral just saying, look, the way you work will certainly work for this chief sales officer, why don't you guys meet? Uh, we're yet to meet, but my gut feeling is that will be a pretty strong relationship or a tier 1 relationship based on how well I know this other individual.

And then the second thing then is like, what have you often found to be like the typical scenarios where you feel like someone's gone from tier 2 to tier 1? Is it when you end up maybe eventually working on a process together? Is it, I don't know, maybe they get to a point where like, guys, actually, you know, I know we've stayed in contact a couple of times, I actually need help with my team. What, what often makes things jump to like a tier 1 relationship, do you think?

Continuous talk and support. So I mean, you know, I think 2023, I never had so many C-suite or VPs, you know, sales, marketing, customer success, you know, out work, I think, with especially with boards letting people go. And it was just, you know, it wasn't— you didn't have to be there daily for them or weekly. In some cases it might be a bi-weekly catch-up or a 3-weekly catch-up, but it was, you know, checking up to see what other processes they were in. You know, is there any support I've got? Is there anyone I'm connected to who can— who I can refer you to? And it was just generally saying, look, and I'm not just saying this for sake— I'm sure there's a lot of people will say Gareth has genuinely said this to me. I'm like, look, even if we don't take a fee from this introduction for 2023, I know if we pay it forward, it will come backwards. And that in some cases is where that tier 2 relationship has, you know, gone into a tier 1, where he's gone, you're connected to such and such, you know, could you— you know, I did apply directly on LinkedIn, but could you nudge him and try and get my name to the top of the list? So I'd say that, you know, little things like that have made tier 2s into tier 1s.

We'll get back to the episode in just 1 minute, but today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Firefish, the recruitment CRM that accelerates data-driven growth. The problem with most recruitment CRMs is that they are just a database of records, meaning they become just one of the many tools that recruiters use every day. Like all systems, the records are only as good as the data being captured. Our sponsors Firefish know that for agencies to win faster, data needs to be at the heart of their business, making your CRM the single source of truth. With over 10,000 records created and updated every day, and 85% of placements from existing candidates, Firefish enables recruiters to enrich and engage their data, equipping you with real-time insights needed to win faster. To learn more about Firefish and take advantage of an exclusive Recruitment Mentors Podcast offer, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast when speaking to the Firefish team. We, like, over the last— as I'm sure you're not surprised, and you know, there might be some more we get into, but a lot of people, what's really front of mind is like the BDP, piece and becoming really world-class at that. But something that I really wanted to get in with you, like, I was just looking at some of your, like, LinkedIn content, um, and things that you've been sharing. Um, I wanted to speak to you about headhunting and, like, the candidate side. I don't think this is something that I've sort of dug into, uh, with someone for a little while. And the reason why I mentioned LinkedIn is, like, I'm looking at a post where you put, like, cold calling sprint into account executives Yeah, 49 dials, 19 connects, 12 happy not interested, 3 callbacks. Like, you're just sort of sharing the journey of like, look guys, you've got to show up, do the reps. Sometimes, you know, you're going to have calling sessions where you get some big wins. Sometimes you have calling sessions where you get—

that was a good day, that was a good fat zero.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you mind if we just talk a bit about headhunting? Because I feel like this is also where, when we think about how many people listen to this would say that they're confident to pick up the phone I'm not sure. I think a lot of times when we think about that, we go straight to like the BD side, the sales side, because that's often where a lot of people struggle. But I think also there's a lot to be said around, um, you know, if you can then also apply this skill at being able to, you know, connect in an authentic way with passive talent, that, that's like a huge competitive advantage to be able to do that effectively and leave a good impression, um, and even turn some of those conversations into people that might be interested in having a further conversation. So what does, um, let me start with this. Like, when you would say Gaz wasn't very good at headhunting, what did that sound like? And what does maybe Gaz better at headhunting sound like? Let's start with like maybe what Gaz, when, yeah, maybe he wasn't as effective at headhunting, what might have that sounded like? And do you want to define headhunting in your opinion? Let's just make sure we're on the same page. Like, how do you define headhunting?

Headhunter needs finding passive talent, right? You know, it's always easy to speak to and engage with people who are looking for work. So people who are open to work on LinkedIn, and you know, they're the ones who respond on your— to your first in-mail with their resume, you know, respectfully or disrespectfully. You know, they're typically the candidates where you're like, you know, you know that resume is with 100 recruiters and it's going to be a pretty bad first initial conversation. So Yeah, I mean, I define headhunting as being able and confident to convince somebody to engage with, you know, an opportunity that you're working on for your client. And you know, they're not looking. So you've generated excitement and you've convinced them to take that first step of speaking to whomever the first step is with.

And are we doing that? And like, for me, I feel like when I think of that or define that, that's typically on the phone, although obviously you can send direct messages to these people But is that typically happening on the phone?

Yeah, in the main it's on the phone. I mean, of course we start with an in-mail or an email, so then you're, you know, recognizable. And at least then if you cold call and say it's Gareth and it's like, oh, the guy that messaged you on LinkedIn or whatever, and you've kind of got the icebreaker, so you're not just getting hung up on or being told that they're in a meeting. So yeah, we use cold calling as our second step, not the first, or at least in the very much I do. But yeah, I mean, some people can say no, And I remember once a placement in Germany, I mean, he said no, no, no, no, and he just be— and then one day he just looked at my LinkedIn, and I think this was after 3 months, and I picked up the phone, he's like, Gareth? And I was like, yeah. And then he was like, we made the placement. So it's like also having that tenacity to, to know when you found the right person, that timing is everything. There's no harm in if someone's declined your in-mail, if the— especially if the market pool is small, it's having the cheekiness to, you know, maybe just to, just to find a reason to call them and just say, look, you know, hear me out, hear me out, you know, what's the kind of— what's the harm? But we also make bad connections.

Bad headhunting, what did that sound like for Gaz, mate, early on? What we're saying, how did that sound like? If you were headhunting me, what did that sound like?

Yeah, absolutely no idea what I was saying. So like literally going into pitches, uh, not even kind of understanding how to position a client. You know, in my first recruitment role, we all know where that was, we was literally told to have a, you know, kind of call, you know, just call through the database, get used to speaking to candidates, you know, here's a job or whatever. And you just used to get told, so they'll be like, every time someone starts new, they effing call me, they promise me they're going to get me an interview and nothing happens. He's like, I'm sick of it. And it was just, you know, how they brought people on. They had a very, very good onboarding process. But yeah, I was— and we'd have meetings, right? And we'll, you know, I'd be talking, you know, what's SaaS? And I'd just say random words. And of course it caused a laugh in the office, but I just sometimes genuinely did not know what I was saying.

So it sounds like— sorry to buy in, but it sounds like what I'm taking from that, and I think this is the lesson, but you let me know if I'm right here or wrong, but you called people— bad headhunting— you called people and spoke about what you wanted to speak about. So that could be your job, who you work for.

Like, yeah, we would have a job to fill, but sometimes it could be speaking to the wrong person, you know. I was just calling for a database, so it's like we've got a job spec, I'm just calling and trying to talk about a company. But when you don't actually know the fundamentals of a SaaS business or, you know, kind of a role per se, you're just calling people to get the marbles out of your mouth. And you— what I'm trying to say is just jumping at the deep end, because without having those conversations and with a little bit of embarrassment, you don't actually learn anything. Do you know what I mean? You can read as much as you want. I think I actually said to Nick at one point, I'm like, is there like a book with all like this tech lingo in and blah blah blah? And he's like, there probably is one, but it'll take you about 8 years to read it. Just get up, just get on the phone, right? And if you mispronounce some words you mispronounce some words. But I had already been in sales for, what, 7, 8 years in the financial services industry, so I was pretty cocksure of myself. I didn't mind a bit of rejection and embarrassment. It's just I didn't also mind just saying, look, I'm new to recruitment, so yeah, I mean, why don't you tell me? And flip it around and get them to educate you in the early years. So instead of trying to sound credible Flip it on them, just say, look, I'm new, look, I've got a role here, I think you could be a good fit, but you can tell me.

And what does— what does a good headhunting call sound like now, guys? So like, if I'm an accounting exec right now in Boston and I work at one of the direct competitors of your clients, how are you— how are you opening up that call, mate?

What is it?

What do these better calls sound like these days?

I'm just straight in, get caught into the chase. Headhunter, I've pinged you on LinkedIn, sticking my head above the recruiter noise. I just want to see if you've got my message. No. Boom. Straight. And then obviously if they say— it's just, it's keeping them on the phone, literally. I will tell them from the get-go, I'm a headhunter, what I'm calling about. Of course, people either make their excuses or they won't. It's just that there's no how are you, blah blah blah. It's just I'm a headhunter, message on LinkedIn, sticking my head above the noise. And typically, advantageously, a Brit in America, so most of the time they don't just hang up. Of course some do. So I have a small, a marginal gain on that front, I would say.

And do you go in— I'm just curious, like, do you go in with like straight start talking about I've got this company I'm working with, etc., or do you try and lead with like, look, you know, this might not be the case here, most account execs I speak to often might find themselves struggling with like, I know their quote has gone up but they're getting less thing, I don't know, do you try and like you know, speak to them about some of the issues you think they might have, rather than being like, I've got this company that I'm representing that I want to speak to you about?

Not personally, I don't. I mean, that's a pretty good way to do it, but I appreciate it. Selling software, people try and jump into the pain points, but people either love being headhunted or they don't, right? I think the point is, is just trying to open up lines of engagement. So tell them why you're calling, you know, the no-nonsense, the no bullshit approach. And, you know, if they're open to talk, they're open to talk. If they're not, they're not. Um, it's— there's been some instances like, you know, someone's like, oh, just ping me on LinkedIn, and you do, and they genuinely will follow up. And then, you know, placements have happened from that. There's some people that, you know, will talk to you just for the sake of talking to you, but it's a case of using your own intelligence on how far to take that, I suppose. Yeah, I, I don't know. Going into a headhunting call, trying to find pain points in recruitment, I mean, I'd like to hear of someone who's found great success from that, and I'd love to speak to them because personally I'd be like, who the fuck are you? You know what I mean? Like, what does that make sense? It's like, it'd be like, okay, this, this could be HR calling me from my current company and I'm going to start complaining about— I'll start telling you about the pain points of my current job. I think that's a, a tough route to entry personally.

Okay, so let's round this out with this. I know we're going granular here, but this will be helpful for people. But no, I appreciate that. I was just curious on, you know, you recruit in this space, like, you know all these things, right? You know, it's all about the problem-solution focus. So I was interested in, like, if you bring that to life. But I respect that. I guess my, my ask here, right, is I just think this would be helpful for people. Like, so many people listen to this will have jobs that they're working and they'll be selling them. So my question to you is, Gaz, what does like a good client pitch or vacancy pitch sound like to you? Like, if we were to break it down, because I'm sure that's something that you've finessed and thought about, and you know, what does a good one like that sound like, out of interest?

And it's something obviously that we have to teach our new starters to try and avoid them having the, you know, the brick wall that I would continuously run into. So when people start with us, we would genuinely say like, right, take this JD and come back and pitch to me. And then we'll be like, look, take that out, put that in. You've missed this off. So ultimately, it's, you know, high level what that particular company does. Funding, current AIRs is always a key point and, you know, a key interest of people that we sell to. You know, what the founders have done and achieved previously. Am I going into first-time founders here, or am I going into, you know, basically people who've had successful exits or mergers or acquisitions previously? Where they're headquartered is important to some people, believe it or not. You know, some people have had some good experience and bad experiences of companies expanding into the States. You know, people either love it or hate it, so you need to make that quite clear. And then I'd just say have the, the top 2 or 3 points of the role. You know, you don't need to run through the full intricacies of the role and bore them to death with a JD, right? It's like, the role is this for instance, you know, a regional sales manager. It's 100% net new at the minute. There's no business development support, so you've got to be willing to roll your sleeves up and get hands dirty. You know, how does it sound? And you just kind of give them a bit about the company, a bit about the funding, founders, current revenues to prove that they've got current customers, which most people want to see, to see the product works. And then a tiny bit on the role. It's not rocket science. It's a very small suite Elevate a pitch, and then, you know, it's kind of over to them. You don't need— you don't, you don't really need the hard sell at this point, I don't think.

And you just typically close out with like, what do you think?

Yeah, so over to you, what are your out loud thoughts is a word that I used to do, that I commonly use. What are your out loud thoughts? What are you thinking?

Uh, well, yeah, out loud thoughts, nice.

Yeah, yeah, what are your out loud thoughts? And then from there they'll just go, sounds interesting. So I'm personally very process driven from this aspect because again, from past experience I think obviously one-call closes are the ones where there's less commitment, and then you, you end up with interviews being cancelled, candidates not committed, you look shit to your client. So I will always, always, always, always, always, always, 99% of the time— there's probably 1% time where I'm like, I've tried to get hold of this person so hard and I'll just throw them in— but I will always pitch, send them the company client deck, JD, whatever. They research. I only accept resume when they agree for introduction, then I finish my interview. But of course, once I've given them the elevator pitch in terms of the, the small portion of the role, I will basically kind of do a very small cross-check to make sure that they can actually do those parts of the role before I send the JD. So I know that if they do say yes, we've got a decent prospect to be introducing to our client. They say no, jump on another call. Why doesn't the role fit? Gives you a chance for a second sell. What are your actual requirements? Why is this job not a fit? And then you can just make sure that you're tailoring your approach to, to them the next time around. Okay, last time you said that you wanted a company with 200 people, not 50. This one's got 200 people. And then of course you, you start to build a relationship over time.

There we go, guys. Headhunting process. Yeah.

Pretty much. You've got to be really— you got it. I mean, it's simple but effective. I mean, people are scared to pick up the phone. I honestly think that's the best way to do it. Connect requests have been pretty, pretty good for us recently, but again, it's, it's time-consuming.

I know. What do you mean? So what, connecting and sending the message?

Just a LinkedIn connect, because people are getting absolutely bombarded. I was going to say another word then beginning with a T, but yeah, with, uh, with in-mails, it's Honestly, like, literally I spent, what, 2 hours last night just connecting with people across projects using the remainder of my 100 connects, and I got 2 or 3 calls booked in from that last night and maybe another 3 this morning.

Oh, are you, are you saying like you connect with them but like, hey, we just connected on LinkedIn, just wanted to give you a call, like, as in literally that's like the, the purpose of the call sort of thing?

You know, this is not as in like sending the connect request instead of, you know, as simple as that. It's, it's It's crazy because it's never really seemed to have worked before, but it just seems to be setting up quite a few conversations at the minute. And that is even from a business development front, just very cutely just saying, look, notice you're hiring for this, boom, we think we've got a candidate for it. Because again, there's that leading back to one of the points I mentioned earlier in this, is there's just shitloads of automation out there now. Email, you know, I know I— we use Source Whale, um, as and when at the moment, which is a great tool. But in mails, people are getting bombarded. Emails, people are getting bombarded. I think sometimes the other angles, like as small as connect requests or phone calls, they're probably the ones that are providing us the better results at the moment.

Well, yeah, like you said, you said it in your sort of like opening, right? I wanted to give you a call, get sort of above the sort of recruitment noise, do you know what I mean? Like, I, I definitely agree with that. Um, Right, so that's, that's our focus on, on headhunting. So let's talk about this like business journey then, because I think what you wrote down here, which I really found interesting, and you can talk a bit about it, you wrote, does the initial vision match up to what it ends up being, what it is? Talk to me, talk to me about that. Was that— are you saying like when, you know, speak— spoke to Rick, I'm joining them, we were like, we're gonna build like a big business, these sorts of things, and then you got in the seat, actually, is that actually what we want? Um, is that what we actually care about? Like, talk us a bit about this, guys, because I think people can relate.

Yeah, so there's, there's little— I've got about a million and one thoughts on this, which you get as a business owner. So of course the initial idea, uh, and obviously I needed, I needed to go back to the UK for visa purposes anyway, but my idea was to open up the States. But the idea was to, to build and scale out, you know, a decent-sized recruitment business. I mean, I think 2023 would have hurt us anyway if we, if we did that. But, you know, we opened an office, we made 2 hires. You know, you've asked me before in the past what's one of our mistakes, and it is hiring too quickly because we just didn't have the, the documentation or the playbooks to, to do that. But ultimately, initial vision is build, scale, and become like a, you know, a 10 to 12 person recruitment business that is efficient and effective. But then of course, after having made two hires that didn't work out, you know, we will take accountability for it as we always do. But you know, they wasn't probably the, the best recruiters at the same time. You know, we was giving them all the time in the day, but from our part, the documentation wasn't there to support them. Um, and it just got to the point where we, we were like That's— no, train strikes didn't help. I was losing 3 hours a day, so, you know, that meant we was turning up to the office less and less. And it was just like, let's— we're both great billers, we enjoy kind of the freedom and flexibility of life, and it's kind of gone from let's build and scale this whale of a recruitment business to maybe having a, like, as a lifestyle business. And now we're kind of reining that back in a little bit. So it's like we've had— we've gone from one extreme to the other, to the point now where we, we do, you know, having a lifestyle business sounds very nice and luxurious and you can do what you want, but we do have a commitment to our clients to deliver a service, right? And we need to make sure we do a good job, and we want to do a good job to put our brand in the best light as physically as possible, but also as, as kind of recruitment consultants, myself, Jordan, and Rick. But that is now also leading out to kind of burnout and fatigue. So now we do need to grow and scale, but not massively, you know, we're not thinking, talking astronomically here. And then we, that we've also kind of had to swallow our pride on the first topic that you brought up. You need to do business development. So you kind of mature as a business owner and you feel your way through things, and it's like, right, we've spent the last 12 months looking for a unicorn. And I think a lot of recruit— you know, I still see recruitment people posting out, or business owners posting out, we need you to be able to do business, new business. But the reality is most people are uncomfortable doing it or can't do it. So yeah, again, we've swallowed our pride and said we should always weigh everything towards business development, but we're looking for an account manager at the moment. So we've, we've decided that is the best way for, for us to successfully grow and scale. Efficiently and effectively, but also again, not to, to make it a lifestyle business, but just so then everybody understands their role, which is great for growth but also great from a work-life balance perspective. Because at the minute, and what we've been doing for the last 3 years, is great job flow. Let's obviously fill the jobs, so which means no new business. And then it's like, right, we filled 60% of the jobs, we need to start doing business development. And then you just either at one end of the, the pendulum's either at one end or the other. It's never, it's never kind of like, as a 3-person business, it's never in a sweet spot, let's say. It's, um, it's a learning curve.

Whilst you take a short break, I wanted to take a moment to chat to you about one of our amazing partners, Sourcewell, the industry-leading recruitment engagement platform. I'm using myself, and I don't know what I would do without it. From building personalized messaging cadences across a variety of channels to automating follow-ups and data tracking straight back into my CRM. It's really made an impact in streamlining my workflow and most importantly, accelerating my sales results. My favorite feature by far is the live feed. By being able to see in real time who's engaging with your campaigns, it enables me to prioritize my outreach with the most engaged prospects, which helps me get way more out of what I put in. So I'm going to be honest, if you haven't got Sourcewell and you're a recruiter, I really believe you're at a disadvantage. To find out more and see the platform in action, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. Because you listen to this podcast, you're going to be able to get access to an exclusive offer: free 50 phone credits, 50 email credits, which is at the value of circa £500 per user. So make sure you mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast and click the link in the show notes. As we were saying before, like, my world is speaking to founders like yourself, and like, that, that would be relatable for so many people. Do you think, um, I'm just going to ask a bit of like a direct question. Like, I might be completely wrong here, like, you know, I haven't got to know you and stuff. You've written like self-awareness a lot and these things, but Do you feel like there's any like external pressure of like, should I be growing this? And like, did I go out, you know, did I leave my previous job and then go on this journey to— for it to be quote unquote just a lifestyle business? Is— do you think— is there any like— or even just the pressure you put on yourself of like, hang on a minute, like, no, we should be growing this. Does it— any— any of it stem from there or not?

No, not all. I mean, we have zero external pressure. Um, myself and Rick are very ambitious people, so it's all intrinsic. I couldn't give two monkeys what anybody thinks, or what other business owners think about Magnifind, if I'm being honest. You know, who we serve and who we do give a monkey's ass about are our clients, the candidates we work with, and of course our employees. You know, so other than that, we don't care. I think this is more from a perspective now that we know we need to grow to keep those people happy. So not overloading Jordan, you know, servicing our clients within a timely manner, and then also making sure that myself and Rick don't burn out, which is happening quite frequently because of the— you know, we took quite a lot of work on and we're delivering. But you can do 3 weeks of absolute magic and you don't mind putting the hours in, you know, 6 AM starts, 10 PM finishes. But week 4 you're non-existent, right? It's not consistent, and you'll never survive in business doing that. You know, what if you want to take 2 weeks PTO? Who can you rely on? You don't really get to take 2 weeks PTO because you've got to, you've got to deliver. So I think there's just always realization, and it's being self-aware and, and being, you know, again, speaking to other people in the industry, and either they know right the right things or the wrong, or the wrong things, and it's making sure that, you know, you're not just— you've not got your blinkers on. So yeah, we, we're always open to what's going on in the market. We're happy to swallow our pride, we're happy to be challenged. And I think obviously this has been a— we're talking 3, 4 weeks ago, I think we first posted for the account manager. It was a big kind of swallow your pride moment because we've been looking again for this BD unicorn for, for the last year and unfortunately not found anyone.

The, the amount of founders I spoke to, like, yeah, we're not hiring grads. Or like, uh, trainees because of that exact thing. They're like, I want someone that can come in. But look, again, I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think— I don't know if you can relate to this a bit around what you're saying around you can have like 2-3 weeks of product, uh, like really sort of productivity, and it can be challenging. Just because I think people can often feel like, yeah, like, you know, I'm billing like good numbers for this company I'm working for, I'll just go out and do it for myself, like, and I'll earn a ton of money. But you know, there's always— there's always— there's whatever you do, there's always a cost, right? And I really appreciated you sharing that because I don't know if you can relate to this, but like, um, with what you were talking about, definitely what I always wrestle with is like whenever like I have downtime, I'm always— I'm always almost feeling like, oh, should I be doing this instead? Or should— there's like— I know there's work I can do, you know what I mean? So like, you— it is just hard. And like, you have to show up, you have to do what you do, you have to sacrifice. But then even when like Gaz might be like, right, okay, I'm gonna have a bit of free time, or these things, that voice in your head being like, Gaz, like, you've got 5 live vacancies, like, shouldn't you be headhunting?

That's the reality of it. That is literally the reality of it. And it's like, the good— the good thing is, as you say, Jordan's my brother. Me and Rick have known each other now for 5, 6 years, maybe longer. We're just very honest with each other. If we're like, I'm fucked, I'm knackered, I'm literally adding no value to this company at this hour, I'm gonna log off at noon, or do you know what I mean? It's just, yeah, I'm gonna be done early today. And the— our value is health, family, work. Do we treat it like that? No, because again, we're all kind of very ambitious people. But you know, that's, you know, that's what we live and breathe by. So if someone's saying I'm knackered or I'm not feeling well, it's like, literally, just look after yourself first. Everything else will you know, if you don't look after your health, that's where things start to kind of go backwards. So it's like, yeah, it— but I think it's like the chimp paradox, right? Everyone has that little voice in the head telling them they could be doing something better and different, but you burn out. Yeah, you need— you— it's, it's like they say, as you grow older, Hashem, you need to be able to say no to certain things in life. And I've been— have I been guilty of being a yes man in the past? Of course. But sometimes it feels good to say no, right? And that's it, you know, again internally and externally, in work life and out of work life.

Yeah, for sure. So you spoke about this pendulum, which I know a lot of people relate to. How, how are you and Rick about solving this pendulum issue then, right? So talk to us about this because I think this would be interesting. But how, how are you thinking about— you mentioned the account manager, but how are you thinking about solving this, uh, pendulum issue?

That is the— that towards— that is the answer, um, if I'm being brutally honest. So, you know, we, we do want to, again, We're not going to go to a graduate. We do want somebody with recruitment experience that can maybe do the, the Gazfox of 4 years ago, right? You know, winning business through existing relationships. So as business owners, we don't want to be seen as the guys who are sat in like, you know, an ivory tower giving instructions or plays that are 15 years old. We're gonna— we, we're actually gonna be the, the business development guys. So we're gonna purely BD, unless of course there is times of need where we need to help them fill the job. So the idea of the account manager is they will— between obviously Jordan and whomever we hire, we're wanting this person before April 1st, before we do the switch for H2. But is the account manager will basically have house accounts that they will basically be able to work roles with pretty much immediately, and they can upsell and cross-sell So if that, you know, the POC that we've handed to them, they refer them into another business, that account's theirs. Okay, so that's kind of their cross-sell, but that their new business in inverted commas. But the idea is for them to be the face of the account. It's like a customer success manager, right? For the first— so that, that's for house accounts. With new business one, the idea is the fact that me and Rick will work with them as like a transition period. So me and Rick will win the customer we will then obviously at the term of time of execution say, look, this is your account manager, but we will be involved for the first 3 months and you can kind of pull us in if needed at any point. It's all the first 3 months or the first 3 placements. So the idea is that the split is that at this point is favorable to the guy who's brought the business on.

And then in terms of like the deal you're talking about, like the—

yes, in terms of the deal, because we've done the hard job of bringing the job on, but then after the first 3 placements or 3 months, it's then favorable favorable to the account manager. So the idea is then it's the, the account manager wants to make the first 3 placements as quick as possible so then the splits go in their favor, so they make sure that they get a good job. And then the, in terms of the, you know, then the pendulum is everybody has a certain job in terms of, you know, we're business development, their account management slash delivery. We get pulled in when necessarily or if there's an overload. And then from the opposite side of that it gives the account manager a chance to— again, if they're self-aware— we've all seen people going to leadership and hey, it's like, right, if we get— if they get to a point where they're overwhelmed, it's like, right, me and Rick then have a decision to make. Do we hire another account manager, or do we hire a delivery consultant under them so then they feel like they're moving forward in their career? So it gives them the opportunity to go, right, I do want somebody to fill my jobs as an account manager. Great, well, the delivery consultant and is your responsibility. Um, not that me and Rick will not have any involvement of the onboarding or training, but ideally, you know, if you're going to get the kickers from their placements or from the leadership of this person, you can. If there's somebody that says absolutely not, I just want to come and do my job and go home, I'm not spoon-feeding or babysitting, then of course we'd look to hire another account manager. So we, we think this is the answer. Until we do it and experiment, we don't know. But the idea is that just people are playing to their strengths. You know, me and Rick can win new business pretty good, we can fill jobs pretty good, but again, it stops it having the— that again, one side of it.

Yeah, yeah, no, I like it. I appreciate breaking all that down. I think that'd be really interesting for people. Um, so let's just break this down a bit. You did a really good job of breaking all that down, but again, I know you're like going to be experimenting with this, but I don't know if you thought about this. Um, so a couple of things. One, how many net new clients do you think you and Rick will have to like— like, what does like— because to avoid that pendulum, you need to keep doing that, right?

Yeah.

Because then you could have people in your business that go, guys, like, I've got no jobs, like, what's going on, right? And then you've got someone that isn't— let's just say like they have like house accounts aside, whatever, right? But how many— have you thought a bit about that? Like, how— what would be like yours and Rick's goal? Is it like like, you know, 5 new clients a month? Is it 3? If you consistently did that, you think you'd be really healthy?

What have you thought about that in terms of how well we deliver on the work that we pull? I mean, I think if you was to pull 3 new logos a month, it'd be an absolute doddle. I mean, I think if you pulled 5 a quarter, even if you pulled 5 new accounts a quarter, I think as a 3-4 person business, we'd be in a good position. I mean, we're trying, you know, the goal is to do 850/1 mil between 3 of us this year, which you know, with a low P&L is going to leave us with a great profit, right? So it just gives us, it gives us a good scaling model. And the idea is, is that again, if we, if we, if we perform better than that, we, we hire somebody else. But you know, the idea is, is the account manager needs to kind of get the account— the, the business development person and the account manager needs to get traction out of that account to make it attractive for you both, right? So there's no point passing on a client to an account manager if the client ain't going to spend. That's why the business development person will work with the account manager for that 3-month period to make sure it is a successful account. Once it's a successful account, it's handed off. So it should be easy for that person to maintain that relationship on, on paper, and that's our theory. Um, so it's going to be an interesting model, an interesting proof of concept. So again, it's just like starting, joining with Magnify, should I say. It's about having no doubt in your ability and capabilities. We know we can go out there and win the business It's just obviously now then experimenting with that model to see if it works.

No, no, I appreciate that. Has this then affected your strategy on the types of companies you want to partner with? Because you're talking about clients that, you know, like, isn't this— isn't just spot business. These are accounts that we're trying to win that are doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 placements, and you're gonna— these people are gonna be incentivized by increasing the client spend per client, right? So is that also affecting the strategy of like you're targeting companies around like, talk me through the next 12 months, what are your hiring goals, what are the issues, and let's work together on the hiring project. Like, what has it affected that?

Uh, I would say no. I mean, we're too small to do that. I mean, at the end of the day, if we pull a client and we place 2 or 3, 3-year roles with in a year, that's still a good account to us, right? It's a 6-figure account with the roles that we typically place. So I, I'd say, uh, the answer to that would be no. It's just making sure that it is a spending account We, you know, we, we're attractive to work with startups. Startups enjoy working with us. We're not, we're not, we don't pull corporates. You know, I spoke to, you know, Lewis, we both know for Lewis the other day, and we're speaking about one of the accounts that he's working on, and it's an absolute whale. And I'm like, we wouldn't even consider prospecting into this, right? So he's at like the other end of the spectrum. So the answer is no, as long as it is, you know, a well-funded startup, good story with good growth plans. I mean, at the end of the day, we're not gonna start to be vertical specific. We're vertical agnostic, but it still needs to fit the model of the typical companies that we work with, of course.

Why wouldn't this work? Why won't this work if we chat in 6 months' time and go, yeah, it didn't work? Why don't you think it'll work?

Why wouldn't it work? Stephen Bartlett question, that, isn't it?

I'm very tired.

Inversion question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what, I can't see it not working. I genuinely can't. It's just jumping in and doing it. Maybe the initial split of the account between the two account managers may cause a little bit of a, bit of a stir, especially with Jordan being in, being in the business now for 14 months. The other person, we're looking for, you know, minimum 2-3 years of recruitment experience, but but, you know, we're going to aim to be as fair as possible. But you can't predict the future, right? We, you know, the, the issue with being a services-based business, Hishem, especially in technology, is you can't predict what's happening. You know, even if that customer is exclusive, you could wake up tomorrow and that, that client's been acquired, right, by a big player. And that big player's like, we've got our own recruitment team. So if we could hand the best accounts to an individual, and within 2 months' time those accounts could be dormant because they've been acquired. So I think that's the only brick wall we could run into. But if me and Rick do our job well enough by winning the new logos and helping service them for the first 3 months, we just need to find the right people who, you know, take pride in their work and give a shit about, you know, pleasing the customer, really, without people pleasing, doing a good job for the customer, doing what you said you was going to do when, when we signed them on. Whereas if we hire someone who doesn't give a shit, then the model is going to fail, right? Because the, the client's just going to come back to them and say, such and such isn't delivering, can you help me?

Guys, how much leverage do you think it's given you being boots on the ground in Chicago?

So it's a weird, a weird question because we, we never felt trading from the UK into the US was a problem, but just naturally we win more business and we you know, our revenues are up. Like, it's— I don't know what the answer to that is, Hishem, and I've asked myself it a million times, but with you just having a physical presence, it, it just— you just naturally, you know, we're just— these contracts get signed quicker. It— I don't know, it's not like anybody ever said to me, Gareth, I know you're back in an office in Manchester trying to work the US. I know you were at the US market, so we're going to go with another agency. Nobody ever physically said that, but just naturally the volume has increased. Did I get here at a right time during the uptick of a market? I don't know. But I did also see that on my previous journey, right? My billings naturally increased and my revenues naturally increased when I went to San Francisco and then moved to Chicago the first time around. So it— yeah, I, I don't have a secret sauce or a magic answer for you there, Shem. It just naturally seems to happen.

Do you think it might be a personal thing? Like, uh, you're there, you're in the country, do you know what I mean? Like, because I'm just like, I speak to so many people that they'll— they're confident they'll hit their goals from the UK, they don't have aspirations. But then, you know, I speak to a lot of people that do want boots on the ground and stuff, which is why I just wanted to ask you that. But yeah, like, like you said, like, even you don't have someone actively saying like, well, you're in Manchester, like, I don't really want to do work with you. That hasn't been a huge blocker in so many people do it from the UK. But yeah, that's what— that's where my mind went. It's like, you're in the culture, you're in the country, it's like, we're bit— yeah, like, I'm— do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, may— maybe it happens without us knowing it, but obviously, big sports guy, I'll literally watch anything, you know, in a bar in the evenings. It's always— there's always a game on in the background, baseball, NFL, or whatever. Because do we have more familiarity that way I, I don't know, do you know what I mean? Did you watch the game at the weekend? You know, what game? Man U? And they'll be like, fuck, are Man United?

Yeah.

Whereas when you actually talk— we'll talk to, you know, because— and everything's regional, right? Apart from people who follow franchises. So that could be a part of it, um, because it's just we're not— that's not research to, to me, you know. I'm naturally kind of watching that and I'm using that as a conversation starter. And they'll go, I'm not into that, I like baseball. Cool, noted. Next conversation, we talk about the baseball team in that area. So yeah, there's maybe things that you don't naturally pick up on that, that, you know, you're doing in your lifestyle that is kind of building, naturally building relationships, but it's, it's, it's not forced. So potentially that, but again, I couldn't— I, I don't have a hard, crisp answer for that, I'm afraid.

And then do you think— I'm sure you've seen this, right, like more and more recruitment companies going to the US? Like, you've been, you've been doing this solidly for a good number of years now, right? Um, like, how do you feel about— to be fair, it might not even be something that you think about, but like, do you feel like in terms of the— if you've got the right strategy, you've got a good value proposition, um, you deliver a great service, all the, these things, and the market's like, um, right for you, whatever— do you feel still like the story of the US, there's still less competition, people more open to working with staffing agencies, you're going to get paid more for the same work you're going to do in maybe, uh, the UK. Um, like, do you still feel like that's like a fair story, a fair like perception of, uh, the US, the, the US market, do you think?

I think it's a fair perception, but of course people have cottoned on to it much more. So, you know, people who got here in like 2018, 2019 I think they got— they had the best rides. People before that, even, even better. But yeah, I think a lot of people have kind of cottoned on from networks in London and Manchester, and, you know, people have seen that success and they've wanted a slice of the action, right? So I think we've seen a lot of people relocate to the States. But you've just got to look at the size of London and you've got to look at the size of, you know, one state of America. There's so much to go at. You know, there's so many different markets and verticals. So I think, yeah, the, the storage still does remain, and I think it is a positive move and action to take within the recruitment industry. But we're certainly picking up on a lot more competition in technology alone.

You, you are coming up against— you found over the last— you are coming up against more.

I think it's more competitive, and I just think there's actual more present, more UK prep presence physically in the United States. So, yeah, I mean, I think more people have been willing to move people over here, and people who are hiring in the UK are using it as an incentive, right? I mean, I think Oscar, for instance, I mean, I haven't seen so much of it these days, but that's all they used to advertise. 12 months will get you to the States, and everyone's just going boom, boom, boom, boom, in and out. But I think it's good to be present. It's working for us for sure. Again, we've noticed an astronomical increase in our revenues and client sign-up. Um, long may it continue as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, yeah, no, no, I've just wanted your honest take on that because I think it is— it's easy to, um, like, um, I was like— it came up in a conversation recently, but like the stats around like the GDP of like California is like the same or if not bigger than the UK. Like, that just puts things into perspective, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like the amount of business and opportunity, um, per state, let alone— yeah, so I just think, yeah, like, I appreciate being honest there. And yeah, always speak to a lot of people that really like the opportunity there. Of course, you have to work as hard. It's difficult, it's challenging, um, but certainly there's, there's some, some big positives to be had if you can, you can do it well, um, in the States. Um, but look, guys, it's been, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for, you know, sharing your, your BD method, your headhunting methods. This is very upfront around how you're thinking about solving some of the issues in your business, which I know a lot of people, uh, will relate to. So yeah, excited to see where the business is in the next 12 months. Hopefully we'll have this successful team of account managers and we'll get that million mark, mate. Definitely.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Uh, well, I'm confident we will hit that mark, which will be the first time for us. And, you know, we've got obviously something pre-planned if that comes to fruition. But yeah, we're confident we're moving in the right direction. Uh, we're very interested to see how the new model works. And, uh, yeah, I'll keep you posted. Love it.