Hidden Costs of Post-COVID Growth: KPIs, Culture & Lessons from the Other Side with Sasza Bandiera

Sasha, welcome to the podcast.

Well, thank you, mate. Thanks for having me.

Obviously known you for, known you for a fair amount of time. Yeah, we've never actually sat down and I feel like had a proper conversation like this. I'm looking forward to it. Obviously I met you back in when I worked at Hoxo.

Yeah, probably 2017 or something.

Yeah, it's been a while. So I've known about your business, I've seen it outwardly looking in, and today I think our goal of this conversation is we want to talk about something that most recruitment entrepreneurs, recruitment businesses are going to be able to relate to, which is what happened during this crazy period where most would describe it was easy to do recruitment. Yeah, it was, uh, easy to make a lot of money, boom period, whatever you want to call it.

Yeah.

And then we want to talk about, with the benefit of hindsight, what did we learn? Yeah, through that period, and how is now Sasha, thinking about the business that you run and what are you now doubling down on? What lessons are we taking with the business moving forward, having gone through that period? So we're really going to just try and have an honest conversation around that boom period. What did we learn with hindsight? And then also how we now thinking about the business moving forward and what principles we're going to apply, what we're going to double down on is the goal, right?

That's a lot. That's a lot. So to give everyone—

to give everyone some context for people that may not know Oyster Partnership. Let me know if I get any of this wrong. Yes, we're not going to give the full track record of the business, but the bits that we think would be worthwhile sharing just to give people a bit of a picture. But the business has been in business for over 20 years now. You've been at the, um, company for 17 years. Yeah, trainee, gone all the way up to CEO. Unbelievable journey. The world that you guys primarily focus on is the public sector.

Yep.

And most of the time I've got here, 80% of the business normally has always been contract.

Yep.

And then 20% permanent. That might fluctuate along the years.

Yeah.

So we've got here core verticals operate across 12 different departments, including finance, legal, planning, property, housing, business support across that whole supply chain almost.

Yep. Across public sector.

Across public sector.

Yep.

And then the context that we're sharing here, I think we wanted to share like leading up to the quote-unquote boom period and then how we've got on on the other side, right? So again, let me know if I get any of this wrong. So we'll start with, so 2020, 2020 to 2021, because your financial year is March to April, April to April.

Yeah, April to March. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So just high-level points here. So 2020 to 2021, turnover $25 million, gross profit, gross profit $5 million, headcount 69, um, That's done. Then we've got, uh, 2021 to 2022, that then went to $39 million gross profit of $8.6 million, headcount around 74.

Yeah.

2022 to 2023, we then got $51 million turnover, gross profit $11.3 million, headcount, uh, 102. And then '24 to '25, year just gone, $43 million turnover, gross profit $9.1 million, headcount 70.

Yeah, I think you might have missed one year in there.

I feel like I did, didn't I?

Yeah, 2023, 2024.

Yeah, actually the peak performance year. I forgot at the top. The, the, yeah, turn— so 2023 to 2024, sorry. 52 million turnover.

That's the one.

Gross profit 11.5 million.

Yeah.

Headcount at its peak was 117, but maybe end of the year around 108. And then I just gave the, the, the year just gone, right? So hopefully for everyone listening, that gives everyone a bit of a picture, right? Because we can clearly see it going like this, right? For those not listening, I'm putting my arm in like a big diagonal.

As I'm sure it did for most—

yeah, for most people, right?

Yeah.

Um, and like, just out of interest, you've been in the game a long time. That, that like period, like how would you describe that period? Would you say, I'm not sure we're ever gonna have a market like that again? Do you know what I mean? Like, how— because you've been in a lot of different markets and seen a lot of different markets at play, but like, how Looking back now, how would you just like, how would you describe that?

Yeah, I mean, look, I think that was definitely a once in a lifetime event, right? I don't think pandemics are coming back around anytime soon. Well, I don't think so. And to have businesses all of a sudden just stop or lock yourselves up or lock the staff up, I'm not sure it's gonna happen again, but it was definitely, yeah, it was chaos. It was chaos. Especially the first sort of 3 to 6 months when you didn't know what was going on and all the rest of it. And actually I started to get the heebie-jeebies. I was, I had to get back out of the house and get back into the office. So us and a select few, you know, by July that year we're already back in, you know. So, um, yeah, I don't think we're going to have a time like that again, in answer to your question. Um, so yeah, it was, yeah, once in a lifetime really.

And then from a— how would you— is it fair to describe that crazy period, boom period, as like it was very easy to print money, to do placements, everyone was hiring? Like that, that's the language that I'm normally hearing. Like, how would you describe it?

Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for any other businesses, but I think there was definitely a, like a certain set of ingredients that everything just sort of lined up quite, quite well for us. I didn't make anyone redundant. I didn't cut anyone back. And anything in the first sort of 3 months, actually, we hired an entire academy and we did the training over Teams or Zoom or whatever it was. We also took a couple of CBIL loans because we weren't really sure. Our contractor numbers dropped by 35% within 6 weeks. GP revenue all dropped. So I took a couple of CBO loans to shore our finances up. And actually what it did do was give me time to just sort of think about what was going wrong with the business and what I could do to make it more efficient or better. So I used that sort of money to bring on a new CRM. We invested in new processes, automation, various other bits, including rewriting our training program and then doing a lot of hires. So by the end of 2020, I also— sorry, we as a team, we actually set up the idea of starting 4 or 5 new verticals. And because we're all light on the ground with our day jobs, I set off entire teams to go and map the entire UK market on certain verticals. So the idea being, once we did come out of things, we had the database there to start recruiting to, whereas other agencies, from memory, were laying off staff, putting people on furlough, people weren't really working. I'm not sure whether they did any of those things, but we did. And so by the time it came to Christmas and things started to open back up, we were front foot forward and we were straight out the blocks really.

You were ready to like capitalise on that.

Yeah. So I think it was, yeah, capitalise and then, you know, yeah, so that was it really.

Because really, because like I think what sort of paints a picture here is obviously, yeah, 2020 to 2021, was at, yeah, £25 million turnover. And then by, yeah, 2022 to 2023, that, that basically had like doubled.

Yeah.

Can we like cast ourselves?

And then we went to, we went from about 520 contractors out on the day of the shutdown and we went down to about 350, about £75 grand a week, maybe even, maybe even less than that, £65, £70 grand a week. Where we were at sort of 80, 90. And then we built it back up, got to 500 pretty quick. And then, well, further down the line you'll see we go all the way up to 700 and 200 grand a week type thing. So it was quite a big turnaround in the end.

And let's like just cast ourselves to like that period then, like, and think about things from like that lens. Just curious really. And if we think about that period as a recruitment leader, as a business owner, what's going through like your head in those stages? Are you just thinking like, this is too good to be true, I'm just waiting for it to all stop? Like, what are the things that are going through your head when you're literally seeing that your business has doubled in that short period of time? Because that is exponential growth, which a lot of people—

What I can say is the initial bit was the downside, right? Which again, I'm sure was most employees, forget owners, but you know, everyone, which was the what am I doing? Is my job gonna be safe? The business gonna be safe? My staff gonna be safe? And that was a real down bit. And then when we started to pick back up, to be honest with you, I couldn't keep up. I just remember sitting there smiling to the managers going, yeah, Sasha just done this. Yeah, we've just done that. Teams are doing this. And by the way, you know, our perm team as well, not to forget our perm team, you know, perm dropped off a cliff in April. We had 4 or 5 starters, I remember the following month. Or maybe even 10, and we had to call them up and say, you haven't got a job, and they'd already quit their jobs. So, you know, Perm fell off a cliff for the entire 6 months up until the end of the summer. Um, and so it all started to sort of rush back, sort of 2021 onwards, but I could, I couldn't keep up with it. It was, I suppose it was too good to be true in, in the moment because we had such a low and a down period so, so soon earlier that I wasn't going to sit there and burst anyone's bubble.

Yeah, so true. And even me asking that, I was like, actually, yeah, I'm just completely dismissing that there's that challenging period before that.

Yeah, yeah, it was. And I actually honestly, I do remember sitting there at a time going, are we ever going to get back into a restaurant? Is it going to ever be normal where we can get on a train and or a plane and not have to wear a mask and all that sort of stuff? Like, when 6 months of a certain thing happens and continues, you do forget what the old times were like. So, you know, when billings were happening and people were doing well and all the rest of it, I just, you know, I always think this could be your last deal, so treat it like it's your last. So I just, you know, we just enjoyed the progress really.

And then just to build on the picture and then we'll just get into some particulars. Let me know, obviously I think what's helpful is like how was the business structured or what did it typically look like from an org chart? Standpoint, right? So I've got this here. You can let me know. This might be today. I can't remember exactly when we said this was, but obviously in terms of your role, you got 14 direct reports.

Yeah. I mean, that obviously changes depending on what time period you're talking about.

But typically we've had obviously directors in the contract part of the business.

Yeah. Directors in the contract side, directors in the perm, then managers and layers below that. And then obviously the other direct reports would be things like marketing, finance.

L&D, HR, that sort of thing. And then you've always operated in, you've always had the 360 model typically?

Yeah, we've always operated 360 model, both contract and perm teams. Admittedly, at certain times we've definitely tried 180, and I suppose especially on perm, when you onboard people, depending on what market you put them on, the first sort of 3 to 6 months is probably best doing that sort of delivery model just to build up the, you know, the knowledge and the confidence. But actually we typically just operate at 360.

And then, yeah, as we said, at like the peak in terms of in that environment and the infrastructure, we've got up to like over 700 contractors, 200K weekly GP, doing around 1.5 dealers per head.

Yeah. And about 200 grand a month in perm, something like that.

So let's just first start, I think, To get back into this, like, frame of mind, I've got written down here, tell us about if I attended— when was this rooftop piece with the team? Like, I want to just paint a bit of a picture of, like, how you saw the future before we get into, like, the lessons. If I was at this rooftop company event, remind me again, was it— I got June— when was it?

Yeah, it was probably June 2020.

Okay.

So again, going back to the, you know, from that March 20— was it March 20th everyone got told to go home?

I think so, something like that.

Those next 3 months were obviously the longest of my life, right? I've gone from being in a suit in an office, being in charge, having the people, you know, look to me for answers, me looking to them for results, you know, being part of a family, to I'm at home in your boxer shorts and you're on Teams. And this is like, what is this? What is going on? And I suppose the lack of feeling part of something, it started to creep in purpose and also panic. I've always been quite a visual person and I was starting to get worried that people were just gonna leave. Admittedly, in hindsight, where would you go? Probably not the best time to be leaving the company, right? But at the time I did think that. So I started to draw out plans on a presentation to present to the business for the next sort of 5 and 10 years. Guys, if we, if this is the plans, this is in the next 2, 3, 5 years, and if you are here for the long haul, this is how I, I envisage you in your role to sort of build out. And this is everything from positions through to departments, verticals, the money, the everything really, all the way up to 2023 to 2030. So we all went up to a rooftop. We got the entire company up there, which was nice because I think it was one of the first times we got the entire business back. It was weird as anything because even though we were partly outside and it was a hot day, I remember you weren't allowed to stand up. So everyone had to sit down and you sat there going, this is you're starting to have drinks and chats with people, but you're not allowed to— that, like, it was just bizarre.

Yeah.

So, but it meant a lot, that, that, um, that entire presentation and how everyone received it. And it, you know, the next sort of couple of years we, we rode off the back of that. And I brought it back into end-of-year presentations ever since, really, to just try and give us a bit of a benchmark to where we were at.

But what would have been— if I was there, what would have been like the headlines that would have had? I've got here, like, 250 people by that point? Yeah, so the, like, the high level, like, goals.

So the 2025 was to get to around, I think, 140 staff, 700 and something contractors, this many verticals. And then I painted up probably 15, 15, 20 people, their faces, their positions, how they would move up, the, the, the different brands, and how as a, the back office function would be, would be working. 'cause back then we didn't have a proper marketing function or L&D function or anything like that. By 2000, so yeah, you would've heard, you know, basically a vision, a vision for the future. But by 2023, most of that had already come true. So the 2025 vision had already been hit.

It was on track.

It was on track. We'd hit all the numbers and even I was sat there going, I can't believe we've hit these numbers. I've done it too easy. I'm such a, you know, soft touch really. Until obviously I started to, 2023, 2024 starts coming around, you're like, crap, this is all good to be— too good to be true, really.

So let's get into it then. I've got— so we've got here May 2023, raise the alarm. Like, what, what would— like, from a— this is the thing that I think people can really learn from. Like, what were, from your seat, from your perspective, what were some of the things that you started to see, started to notice, that started to make you feel like, hang on a minute, I think we're on, we could be well and truly on a downward trajectory here.

So I've always been quite a big analytical person. So KPIs, numbers, stats, et cetera. One of the things I started to see first and foremost on the contractor side was the GP started to drop, the weekly GP started to drop. And as did some of the perm placements. So placements per head started to drop, contract weekly GP started to drop. Then we started to look at certain individuals and teams and they weren't bringing in the same vacancies. So then you're then looking going, right, okay, well we're not getting the same vacancies in. The problem is with contract, as I'm sure most people will know, is, you know, once it goes up, they've obviously ultimately got to finish at some point. So unless you've got the headcount to come in and put even more placements in to outpace the finishers, then at some point when you've got 770 contractors, they're all going to start finishing. 7 months down the line, a lot of these start finishing, vacancies aren't coming in, the guys aren't then putting enough starters to counteract the finishes. So you're just then on a downward trajectory. Perm always, because our Perm side is mainly private sector, it's different to the public sector. So when there's sort of macroeconomic shocks in the market, et cetera, private sector is the one hit first. So actually they started to have a bit of a lull. Mid-2023 quicker than the public sector and started to go down. And then it went into 2024, then it started to pick back up, whereas the contract market took another sort of 6 months before it really started to have a steep downturn.

So the things that you started to notice then are, like you said, basically 2 things. One, actual, the end outcome from a GP standpoint, I was going down.

Yep.

And then volume of then vacancies, interviews, and then placements per head.

And then the problem you have then is, well, people are still doing some really quite powerful numbers. So you don't wanna go to 'em and go, look, look, you know, you're doing 30, 40 grand a month, but you're not doing enough. Mm-hmm. But then you're trying to keep up and go, well, actually, are they doing enough? Are they not doing enough? Actually, what are they putting into the machine? Actually, not much is coming back out now. So now we're just riding on previous placements and so on and so forth. So we started to, to apply pressure effectively, having to look at the stats. And where we took a couple of years, we took a foot off the pedal for a couple of years around things like KPIs and stats. When you then try to bring them into a business or a team, all of a sudden you've got people sitting there going, well, hang on a second, where's this come from? We weren't doing this for the last 18 months. Why are you asking me to do this now? I'm doing £30,000 a month for it. Why are you asking me to do this?

And what I want to sort of hear your take on, again, with the benefit of hindsight or sharing some of the things that you did do, is like, you might be, as, as the CEO or as, as the, the founder, you can see all those things, but you can't necessarily just go around the sales floor like communicating your message, right? You've got to communicate it through a leadership team.

Absolutely.

And that, that's not easy.

No, it's not.

So talk to us a bit about that, because yeah, that's where— because like, if you can see it so clearly, but then you've got to effectively communicate that to people, that then they've, they've then got to communicate that. So what Yeah, that was the approach to that.

Yeah. So as I said, I started to raise the alarm bell to a few of my leadership team the summer of 2023 and sort of saying, look, I'm not sure this is— these numbers aren't stacking up. We're going backwards. I know you still have sort of record numbers, record placements, etc., but we are starting to go backwards. There's a bit of a, almost like a recession, right? Are you sure you've got them doing this? You've got them doing that? Yeah, yeah, it's all okay. It's all okay. And when you're, you know, in my position and you've got an office, I love to be out on the floor, but I can't be in everyone's pocket. I can't really, you know, hear and feel and sense everything. You've got to rely on your leadership team to feed back to you. The other thing is it's always quite difficult to pull people up who are, on the face of it, looking to do well and then saying, I'm not sure you are doing as well as you think you are, and being able to have a word, you know, a pragmatic, honest approach, chat around look, if we continue like this, I don't think it's going to end very well because I think we're just continuing to go backwards here. So, you know, I had to have some, I suppose, uncomfortable conversations, and not everyone's always up for those, you know, those types of combos, because they see themselves as, well, I'm bringing in this, so why do I need to worry about that?

This is like the really hard thing, right, is like we've got to remember that you was, you was trying to approach these conversations where, like you said, people can look at the numbers and go Sash, I'm putting on— I'm, I'm doing record numbers. I don't know if that could— that, that's the thing, like, this is why it is unique, and I appreciate you sharing these things because it's like, I don't, I don't know, could you have delivered it any differently and could it have impacted— could it have resonated differently when really the environment that a lot of people are going to go, Sash, I'm doing the numbers, mate, like, I know what I'm doing.

I don't, I don't think personally— I suppose you could sit there, of course he's going to say that— but I don't think personally I could have delivered it At any clearer, if you said to me, what have I learned from that? I probably should have gone even more on the, not offensive, but I should have put my foot down even firmer, to be honest. And actually my problem was because I'd let go of things like KPIs and stats and what went into the machine for the last couple of years, that was my fault, right? So I take full accountability for that. So to bring something back And to be able to compare it against something that you've not had for a couple of years is quite a difficult thing. So moving forward, what I'll do is that will never drop off. You know, things like your inputs, the ratios, the outputs and the results and things, those are gonna be our benchmarks moving forward. And if you're above those and getting more out of it, great. But that's still the minimum standard. So if anything like that happens again, we can kind of go, well, okay, you're, you know, you're living off the fat of the land right now. But remember, this is, you know, 'You're not doing this,' then, then, you know, you still gotta—

because then when, when you— that, that makes it black and white then, doesn't it? I mean, you've got the data, you've got the data. What I'm hearing then— and so let's talk about— because honestly, I think I said to you when we prepared for this, the amount of conversations that I've had with recruitment leaders that did go too far that way, which sounds like you did as well, in terms of like, 'Don't care about KPIs, you just care about outcomes.' Yeah, you're doing well, sweet. Because what I'm hearing there is that when you was having those conversations, when you're trying to be proactive, you're trying to bring light to oh, like, yeah, an important thing that we need to point out. It was hard to do that when you didn't, like, you couldn't just exactly point at the data and be like, look, we've been tracking this, this is how it's matching up.

Exactly.

You didn't have that also with your message.

No.

So it was just what you, what my, what my CEO was telling me is like, Sasha, I know what I'm doing, mate. Like, we're doing deals, don't need to worry about it.

And the other thing that went, that, you know, we changed, like most agencies, but I still say we were still more conservative than most, was we, we started to relax standards, but post the pandemic, you know, we were always suited and booted, to be honest. And then we went to dress down.

Yeah, I've always seen it. I've always, yeah, your business has always been like that.

We went to dress down and we started to finish earlier and we started to change the contracts and we were doing what I suppose most agencies were doing. The problem is when you've got all of that, that's okay in a boom market. And then all of a sudden you realise, well, people are working from home, people are not doing this, people are not turning up at this time, they're going when they want. They're not putting in the numbers, they're not putting in the KPIs, and then the numbers are just falling and you're like, hang on a second, something's gotta give here. So, you know, we had to do some backtracking on a lot of things. Luckily, as a business, working from home has been a stable part of Oyster since the pandemic. However, I would say it's not for a select few, but you can't come in as a trainee and get until you're up to sort of senior. So you're talking about 18 months. We've only probably got 10 or 15% of the staff on a working from home basis. And actually most of us were back in by the following, you know, well, that summer most of us were back in, but by the following summer everyone was back in. I know having been to lots of events and speaking to lots of other agency owners the last 3 years, a lot of businesses have continued with the working from home and found it even more difficult because you're not measuring KPIs, your performance is going backwards, and now you can't even measure the person because they're at home all the time. And then you're starting to just feel like, you know, you're losing control of what the purpose is here and what's going on. So we had to backtrack on a few of those things. We had to, you know, hours went back to what it was, and it's like, right, if you do this, then you can, you can leave early, but if you don't, then just is what it is.

I've spoke to so many recruitment leaders that were exactly the same as you. I sort of like, just from your take, what, what was driving those decisions? Because like you said, you've got an entire if you were to look backwards at Oyster, you didn't do those things.

Yeah, you know what, I, one of my soft— look, I've always been a person where I don't want to be a dictator. I love having a leadership team. I love people being able to have a voice and feeling comfortable to propose ideas, right? And again, going back to it, I was so pummeled by the pandemic that, you know what, I was a bit of a people pleaser. And I didn't want people to feel like they couldn't have ownership over certain decisions and things. It's like, well, hey, if you're running a floor with 20, 25 people and that's what you want to do, look, let's try it. I suppose deep down, always, I was a bit of me going, this is not right, it's not going to work. But remember, when you're a boss, you are one person. Even, you know, there are times a leadership team, even a management, you know, you can be outnumbered. The beauty is we've always had a pretty open, as I said, pragmatic type discussion to things before, but I probably went a bit too soft. And then in time I sat there going, Jesus, I should not have let those standards.

That's what I'm interested in because honestly I've seen it.

It's nervousness. Um, yeah, nervousness about probably people leaving or, or going on the sod this. Because remember when, when the market was booming, it's also booming for recruiters. So, you know, my staff get headhunted 3 times a week, and when they're offered X, Y, and Z and all the rest of it, you know, they can be off to wherever to go and try and increase their billing. So I suppose it's a bit of self-preservation. But I can say that I felt strongly enough about it and confident enough about it within, you know, definitely by 2022 where I was like, look, this is, this enough's enough, right? You can finish at 5 if you've done your stuff. If you haven't, then we don't have an adult relationship anyway, right? Because you haven't done what you're supposed to do. I'll pay you as basic salary to deliver. X, Y, and Z. And if you can't do that, then what's the purpose of this? So I think I bought it back enough of it to actually make some impact until probably a year or 15 months ago where it was like, right now that's just, it's back to pretty much the old way. We still have things like dress down, but it's, um, you know, it's like what you're wearing, chinos and zip jumpers and all the rest of it. So, but back to normal times. We have a degree of flexibility within the company, of course. You just have to deliver. And if you deliver, then it's cool. If you don't, then whatever. Yeah. Also the other thing is, it's hard bringing, building a culture and having a positive, you know, positive environment is really difficult when half the people aren't there. You know, I've interviewed some people recently and they're like, yeah, we got 11,000 square foot office, we've got 3 staff in there. You're like, what? No wonder you're not motivated. No wonder you're not learning. No, what's the point? Like, we all came into recruitment because we all like people, and yet agencies, businesses, and people are actually going, I want to sit at home in the corner watching my, you know, teletext and being on the phone. It's just boring. Absolutely boring. I don't think you learn anything. But people can work from home, by the way, and they can produce. As an overall, I think being in the office around your peers learning from the next person or people learning from you is what it should be, what it should be, at least 80% of the time anyway.

Like, I think a lot of people relate to that, that like it almost felt like if, if we didn't go down this path, then others would, right? But let's just talk about— so that was definitely one of the lessons, right? Let's just talk about for, for a sec, how did— because I think people will still be, are still going through this, or still maybe haven't arrived at that point. It's like, actually, no, this is what we are. And I think from all the conversations that I have with recruitment leaders and whatever success looks like to them, I think the most successful companies have absolute clarity on what they are versus what they're not.

Yeah.

And they own that and they're authentic about it.

Yeah.

And I think the companies that have struggled in, in this period that we're discussing and that we're reflecting on, yeah, from our conversations, is they probably ended up making decisions and building a business pandering to other people's needs.

Absolutely.

You don't want to be whatever, running a— it's your business at the end of the day. You're making decisions. You have a leadership team, of course. But if you're looking around and going, this isn't what's— this isn't what's got us here, and this isn't what— this isn't what I believe is going to get us to the next point, that, that, that's fine for you to make those decisions. But I think a lot of people were concerned about owning that and being that.

100%.

So I think how, again, with hindsight— and you still might be going through this, I don't know— but how How do we then start delivering, hang on a minute guys, I actually think we were going on the wrong path. This is what we're now bringing in, this is what we're about. How did you start owning that and really communicating that? Because that's also a challenge, right? Because you're probably gonna just— there's gonna be people disgruntled, you're gonna be like, Sasha, I didn't join this business to be managed this way, like this isn't what we sold to.

And listen, look, yeah, okay, um, look, I, I can still remember a good handful of times I've brought in the management team into our— into what we call the war room. And, and then just have these open discussions like, guys, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm seeing, this is what I think the result is going to be if we don't change this. Thoughts? And, you know, we go around and there would always be a handful that would agree with you and there'd be one or two that don't. And I'm absolutely fine with being challenged and like, no, why? Okay, so cool, explain you, explain, and let's see how we move forward from here. And then, you know, show our hands on certain things and, and That's how we, that's how we kind of did things. But, um, yeah.

So do you think— so then basically, so, okay, so in terms of if I'm listening right now and there's things that I feel like are absolutely crucial for me to implement for my business that I think are important, I want to bring back in that maybe I've lost, and I have a leadership team, are you saying then that's how you'd approach it and then be like, right, let's get the people brought in? Or have you then with other things you've been like, this is what we are and this is what I'm deciding You're either on board with me or you're not. I don't know. Is that being part of the journey or no?

Yes, it has. I suppose in answer to your question, look, if I knew a couple of my leadership team were on point, on board with me, you know, like anyone would do, it's like, guys, look, I'm gonna need your support here and your backing, right? And I always believe if you're gonna argue any point, a bit like in sales, you need to have a backup, like, you know, and this is why, and this is why, and this is why. So you've got an example to, why you're making these changes. I think open, clear communication around what you're doing and keeping that consistent. So it's not just a one-off and then you decide to get back in your hole for the next couple of months. It's kind of like, right, this is now every month. And then if the things, I think I put in certain metrics for it to change. So guys, right, okay, look, if we bring in this, then we can stay like this, finishing at 5 o'clock. If we don't, we're gonna have to put it so everyone finishes at say 6, half 6 or whatever. And only if you're on target, you can finish early. So we started to just play around with making amendments. So it wasn't sort of a hard and fast, right?

Got you.

Stop. But I suppose even if I think back to all of that, I was 35 in the pandemic and I'm still learning, right? And I've gone from running a company of 60 to running a company within a couple of years of 120. We've all moved up quite quickly. It's the first time I've dealt with a pandemic. It's the first time I've dealt with a shutdown. First time I've had to deal with people mutinying about this and that. So you're learning for the first time. I don't know what the stock market's like, and it's much like that with staff and certain situations. I don't know. But now I've been through it, I can tell you now I'd probably stick with my gut instinct. And 9 times out of 10, my gut has been right about things.

Well, no, I appreciate you sharing that because again, that's an important part of this, right? Is that, like you said, like in order for you to operate a business like that, of course you have to level up yourself, right? And it's like, but that's been in such a short, that's in such a short period of time.

Yeah.

It's like, have you been able to level up in all the areas that you needed to, to run a company like that? Probably not. It's such a short period of time.

Right.

But one of the things that you did share with me was that—

Oh, that was another thing actually. If you don't mind me cutting you off.

That's right.

Look, recruitment is one of those, it's a little bit of a fickle thing, right? Because you can do really well, but we're not sitting here curing cancer. We're making placements. Right. And then things like the job title starts to increase, the basics starts to increase. And let's be honest, the, you know, the growth of a recruiter, especially with job title and salaries and all the rest of it, is exponential. We just, a handful of years. If you think about any of our parents or whatever else, people work for 30 years to get to some of the earnings some people make in their first 18 months in recruitment, the job titles. And it's not necessarily aligned or akin with what I think is actually, you know, worth it. You know what I mean? And we're all guilty of it. And I would say I'm the same. you know, if you're moving people up the ladder, have they actually been through a proper competency framework? Have they actually been trained? Have they actually been supported? Have they actually earned it? Because I think so much can be placed on billings and money that makes you good because you got that. And it's like, hang on a second, you know, you wouldn't have got that if actually the 3 people before you over the late 8-year period done X, Y, and Z. You know, you're only standing on the shoulders of giants, in my opinion.

The way that I've heard this be spoken about and I'm sure you've sort of heard this in, in different ways— is I have one company that I've been speaking to that call that recruiters in that period of 2021 to 2023 or whatever, like COVID recruiters. And sort of what that label is, is that they don't do business development or haven't had to do it. They've got different certain skill sets, um, and can't— like, haven't had experience with certain things. So I think, I think recruitment leaders are aware of, like, if I'm interviewing someone and that all their recruitment experiences from X time to this, then I'm going to assume that this is what their journey has been like, and it isn't the same as the people that were 5 years before.

Exactly.

So that, that is interesting because then, yeah, then with that comes the, the challenges of, like I said, well, I'm earning good money, I know what I'm doing, I've been promoted, expectations.

Yeah. And as things actually, just on that, as things started to toughen up, sort of say 2023, the average recruiter tenure at Oyster, I think last check, is around 3.9 years, 4 years, which is quite long. Yeah. The industry average is like 4 months or whatever. So actually by 2023, when things started to get tough, actually we're already talking about people that have been with my business for 3 years. So if they joined after 2020, they were effectively COVID recruiters. So as things got tough, they weren't used to getting tough. And so then I think I, when I last checked, it was about 70% of our entire workforce by that point, or 80% were 2020 onwards. So when things started to get tough, I started to have a problem with nearly everyone. Apart from a good handful, and actually some of the guys that we still have with us now who punched through, who had the perseverance, the tenacity, they were open-minded enough to take stuff on the chin and go, yeah, you know what, you're right, I need to continue. But other people fell by the wayside. It was like, well, this is not good enough, or you're changing this, and actually you're not billing, and you're not doing this, and you're not listening. And then obviously you've got other people wandering around trying to offer 10 grand more on a basic. So then people, people decide to move on. So you have quite a big either exodus because, you know, people are taken out, or exodus because they're not meeting the requirements, either financially, numerically, or culturally. Then it's like, well, yeah.

When did you start with a business coach? Because that was quite— because we were talking about there in terms of, yeah, you've got anything delivering your communication, you've been— you're learning on this journey.

Yeah, listen, look, I've— for what it's worth, I'm one of those people Even though I didn't have a direct line manager for many years, I always like to hear, right, what did I do well? What didn't I do well? I feed off that. And actually, I don't care how you say it. I'm one of those people where, you know, Dan, my business partner, when he was sort of managing me, he would say how it is. It'd make most people cry nowadays. But for me, I just feed off that and go, right, okay, that's, you know, that's what I need to get better at. I've had an NED over the years. You know, I had Russell Clements from S3, 2013 for a couple of years. 2016, I had Paul Flynn from Eurostar for a couple of years. And albeit that was sort of, it was leadership, there was also, you know, structural stuff and strategy stuff. And then about 2023, actually, that's the year I sat there and I thought, you know what, what I'm missing stuff as well. I can't, I don't profess to know everything. So I got in, put in touch with a contact and I said I was looking for somebody and then Simon came along. And that was from a leadership perspective to work with me sort of one-on-one, no recruitment experience. And I was happy with that.

What do you think he was missing?

Well, you don't know what you don't know. And for me, going back to it, I like to, I like to hear from people that have been there and done it and be more successful. I mean, he built a business from 10 to, I don't know, he went to sold for 200 million. And I want to hear how he's done that. I want to hear what I can do to get better. I want to know what I can learn from that person or the next person. Because that's what I've got to aim for. I want to be the best version of myself. So, you know, I had some tough conversations, you know, from that point onwards. I think he joined sort of October 2023. I've been with him ever since. And, um, you know, it works. And I learn, and I think I'm getting better. And, you know, if I'm getting better, then my leadership team are getting better. And if the leadership team are getting better, then everyone else is going to get better. So it's kind of—

let's just dig into that. What were some of the— what are some of the things that he specifically made you more confident in, right? Because it was around—

yeah, so going back, so sorry, because you're by yourself, you know, you're room, you, you, if you speak to people below you, I, I mean below you in the nicest possible way, you can ask them for their opinion, and I do on certain things. But if I sound check everything, people are going to sit there and go, does this guy know what he's doing? So when you, when you, when you've got colleagues though, or you got somebody above you, you can always go to them and they're going to teach you. No, that's not the right thing to do. Say no, that's not the right decision. Why don't you do this? Or have you thought about that? Or you know, coach it out of them. So with him, it's being able to have the confidence going, okay, I was on the right track. And actually somebody outside, external, they don't know any of the politics, they don't know it, sorry, any of the cultural aspects of the business. They don't know the performance. It's just more me and them. So it really does help. Just, yeah, it makes you really think and just become, I suppose, more confident or more aware of, you know, your decision-making process or how you You know, so it sounds like basically more like one of the big things it's helped with is you've—

you believe certain decision, and before, let's be honest, who you like, you've just got to go with that. You're not sense checking out of anything.

I've been here since I was 22. Yeah, you know what I mean? I've not been to business school, I've not been to— I've not been to uni, I've not— these are all things that I've learned on the spot. And so much like it, let's just say like a single parent, I'm not a single parent, I've had to learn bringing up the kids myself. And I don't know, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And then when it gets to that sort of size, you've gone through a pandemic. As I said, you've lived off, you know, the boom times. And then when things start to shrink, you start going, shit. Well, I can't put it all on me when it was going well and then not put it on me when it's not going well. It's like, it's on me. It's, you know, I'm the captain of the ship. If it's starting to sink or go off course, then that's my fault. So you start questioning whether or not you've, you know, made the right decisions, if you're doing the right thing, if you've got the right, you know, everything from tone of voice through to, you know, everything. You start questioning every aspect of the business, from job descriptions through to people in their positions, what we're doing, our dress codes, our timings, everything really.

And that's hard to go through all that and then not have someone, like you said, to be like, yeah, what do you think of this? Like you said, there's no other person for you to go to.

No, there's no other person. It's almost like therapy. It is like therapy. And actually, I would suggest, you know, even doing that is quite a good thing because it just makes you more aware.

And then just to round this part up, because I think when me and you prepared for this, she was really honest with me and you said one of the things that still might be figuring out now is you as a person, as a leader, can be seen as like befriending people. And like that line sometimes of like, yeah, Sasha the CEO, whatever, like I'm making this decision because it's right for the business. Believing that with you being— the people have been on a journey with you. Yeah, not like— I don't use like, you're like friends with them, but like we're pali. I don't know how you want to call it. Share with me how, how you're— you still might be working for this, I don't know, but like I'm sure recruitment leaders can relate to that. They've had those moments with their team on the lunch clubs and these things. And you know, when we're getting to the journey that you're at You gotta be confident in decisions. Like, this is where we're at. This is the decision I'm making for the business.

I mean, look, if you, if you go back a little bit, I was probably mid-twenties, late twenties when I started managing the business. So I'm, I'm effectively the same age as most of the, most of the guys anyway.

Mm-hmm.

And in some cases younger than, than them. So I suppose through, you know, no other way, you don't know any other way and confidence and everything else, you want to be everyone's mate. And actually I, it's 'cause I actually quite enjoy most people's company. In fact, 9 times out of 10, even the people that have left us for one reason or another, I've really, really enjoyed it. The problem is, as you grow older and as you grow bigger, you can't be everyone's best mate. And unfortunately, some people can't understand that the line needs to be, I'm your employer, I pay you a basic salary, I pay you commission if you do well, and I want to be your mate and I want you, you know, things to, you know, be good between us. But if you're not delivering on your part of the bargain, it's not like I'm not delivering your paycheck. Like, imagine I just started faltering your pay or started messing around with your basic, oh, because you haven't done this this week, you know. But yeah, other people are like, well, I've done this 3 months ago. So I don't care if you've done that 3 months ago. Today's today. You're only as good as your last deal. So I think the problem I had was because I managed like that, people then managed like me, right? Because obviously they see me as the leader, right? So they'll copy, you know, perception is everything. So I then have people below me who are then trying to deploy that type of thing. And then actually I've already come out of it learning, going, yeah, well, I won't be doing that again. But now they're all going through the same thing and you're like, geez, no, you can't, you can't be out like that all the time with them till 3 in the morning and then the next morning expect to tell them off because, you know, they're in late for 5 minutes or they haven't done what they're supposed to do. So you're then having to play catch up and then try and coach and teach people. The same thing again. It's more like Groundhog Day, you know, a year later. So I've, I've slowly, slowly started to separate myself as best I can. And, and, you know, I'm there to basically give everyone a platform to become the best they can be. I can be a mate with them, been great. But as soon as they decide— and that's normally how I would put it— is, you know, they're upset with me because I've had to pull them up on something. It's like, well, if you're not mature enough to to see it as I'm first and foremost your boss, then so be it. And then things sour. And because you're quite a tight-knit, close family and culturally we're very in each other's pockets and all the rest of it, or we were, you know, it can be difficult for some people. But we still, you know, we're still Oyster. People that worked for me 10 years ago versus now, you could tell that they're Oyster people. It's just that we are, you know, a bit more professional and a bit more sort of just maturing as a business. As a leader as well, right?

Yeah, you're learning, you're leveling up. Like, what I take from that is like, you can, you can do what you just said there in terms of step away or be more in this like CEO position, but that doesn't mean that you as a person can still not want the best for people and these things. You're just again figuring out the best CEO that you can be for the business, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Let's segue on to then, like, how you're now thinking about the business moving forward, right? With these lessons, with what we've gone through. I know the learning doesn't stop, but I want to make sure that we understand the things that you're now really dead clear on. So, you know, when you said like a year, 15 months ago, what are the sort of non-negotiables now where maybe before it looked a bit different, just so we understand that. So maybe it can be I don't know whether it be the, the data and the KPIs that you measure. I don't know, what are the sort of non-negotiables now where you're like, look, we've been through this, this is what we are, join the bus on, like, this is what we're about.

You're on the bus or off the bus.

Yeah, what are the non-negotiables?

I mean, I suppose it would depend varying on that level, and if you were coming in as a trainee or if you're at this person or this level. But so I would say the rules slightly change depending on where you come in. Um, but I would say definitely KPIs is, is a non-negotiable. We do, you know, different people have different KPIs. It's not all about that. You need to get the result in, but I kind of liken it always to like the gym. Everyone goes to the gym, but are you actually doing the right sets and the right reps? And are you doing all the right things? Because if you're not, then you're not going to see any growth. And I think it's exactly the same with KPIs. That's how people should view them and their team leaders or managers as pts instead of going, yeah, I love my manager, you know, they leave me to it. It's like, that's not a manager, that's just somebody doesn't know what they're doing. So I'll say KPIs or stroke result, you know, the results, the vacancies, the interviews, et cetera. You've got to get that in. When it comes to things like dress, look, we still have a hybrid. People are in dressed down and I'm in suits probably most 4 or 5 days of the week. But that's kind of there. We have hybrid working, but again, depending on what level you come in at, if you come in and you've done 5, 6 years in recruitment, then we're not going to sit there and say to you, come in 5 days a week. But for me, it's all about you have to come in and feel and experience the business and be part of the culture and understand what gets it going. And I want people to come in so that other people can learn from them, you know, because not all, most of Oyster's been organically grown. We've had some people recently join us from other agencies and, you know, there's a stark difference and we can learn and we do learn from them. So I want people to be there. Other non-negotiables, I don't know. You know, just more sort of the standards, the principles, the values of things. We're quite hot on that. And, um, you know, I'm very much— I, I still cast that all the way down through the leadership team. You know, sickness and stuff like that, just give us a phone call. Just give us a phone call. Lateness, all that sort of stuff, you know, you have to be on, on point with that. If people take the mic, we just, we just get rid of— we just get rid. And it doesn't matter how much you bill with it, you know. I always tell them I know I can hand on heart go, I've never, uh, maybe at points, but doesn't matter how much you bill, if you're, if you're ex and you're not part of the, you know, you won't be part of the fabric of the team really. So that's it.

Yeah, I understand.

Just can't slip. The principles—

I hear that all the time, like, I only take— and I'm sure you've experienced this, it's not about any individual or anything, but so many recruitment leaders I speak to, only takes one or two bad eggs to impact like Massively. A lot amount of people, right? And that's on you to be willing to make those decisions.

Yeah. And the sad thing with that sort of thing is, because again, I mean, my position, you can't, you can't go to the floor and go, guys, I've said this and done this because of this, because you can't go into every single story or backstory. So the problem is you got is the people on the floor won't see half of it, and they'll just see that somebody's left or something's like that, and they think you're the bad person because, you know, stories get around like wildfire and it's always Chinese whispers. Um, but you can't always be open and honest as you perhaps want to be.

So what, so let's just now think about moving forward as you're thinking about the future of the business, what we're doubling down on. Obviously we're just into a new financial year for you guys.

Yeah.

So like if we're, let's say that we're going to have another rooftop event this June.

Yeah.

What are we hearing at that that might be a bit different? I don't know. How are you thinking about the future of the business? What are you doubling down on?

Okay. So one of the things I put on there was definitely that the headcount. And back in 2020, I was sat there going, right, there's some companies out there and there's some brilliant ones. And I know I've met the CEOs, the 200, 300 people. And being honest, I've always sat there and gone, why can't I? If they do that, why can't I do that? So that was definitely part of my plan. The headcount was seen as a, this is a sign of success. If we get to 150, then we get to 200, then we get to 250. And of course it is. But right now, is that what I want to do? No, I'm not so sure. I think I'd rather have a team in place where, and the structure in place where I believe I've got the right people on the, on, on, in the right positions. They, they know what they need to do. They've been coached and taught and whatever else. And we, we give them enough responsibility where their bandwidth's not stretched to the nth degree. And we just kind of build up. As I mentioned earlier, Oyster's always been a typically organically grown business. I would say 92, 93% of their staff have started their careers with us. One of my strategic objectives this year is I do want people from other agencies and not necessarily the same, you know, I don't want anyone to come for me from a competitor who does the same thing as I do and try to bring the database. I'm not interested. I don't want any of that. You know, I don't want to piss on anyone else's chips. But if you come from, say, the tech or anything else like that, I think there's a lot that we could learn from them and vice versa. So moving forward, I'd like, you know, diversity of thought is probably how I would put it, a diversity of experience. Because I think from the top down, we could all learn as a business, um, different things from different places. So I'd like to just grow, I think, slower than we have done in the past and just be a bit more on top of things and have a few more sort of— well, not hurdles or speed checks, but a few more checkpoints in place before you start going, I have 15, I hit 20, you know what I mean? Because I'd far rather a happy a happy workforce that was productive, then basically piling on too much on the top, foundations aren't strong enough, then it all snaps and breaks. Because that's probably happened a couple of times in my career at Oyster.

And I feel like the thing— you can tell me what you think about this, but what's important for people to remember is like your definition of like success and what you're building can change over time, right?

Yeah.

And that can evolve.

Different things mean different things to different people. And yeah, as I get older, I'm 40 this year, You know, it just means different things. But I want to get to a point where, you know, I'm passing the baton over to somebody else to take the reins on and then I can work on some other things and, you know, do different things. And it's the same with my leadership team and management team. It's funny, I've seen some of them grow from 21 years old and then when they're getting to 30, that even they've started to change. And then I've had to then start moving things around for them because actually what mattered to them 5 years ago doesn't mean the same to them anymore. We've got a lot more people in the office now. I've got things like families and kids and are married. So, you know, it's a nice element of maturity coming into the business. And I think even that just adds a lot to the rest of them. Whereas before, as I said, I think the average age was 28 and there's probably 60 of us. And then the, you know, 28 was probably the management team and then the most of the rest of the business, probably 22, 23. So it's just complete carnage.

Yeah.

And I would say it's not, basis to build a, you know, yeah, a company per se.

Yeah, I got you, man. And then if we were to get into some of the details on what are some of the, could call them strategic objectives or, uh, really important priorities for the business when it comes to like future-proofing the performance of the business. You've spoken about maybe thinking about a slightly different strategy where before you would get a lot of entry-level talent in That was the play, but now it's thinking about getting senior people in.

Yeah.

You're going to continue levelling up yourself. You're maybe thinking about actually, can we keep growing, keep being profitable and not be in such a rush to, like you said, add loads of people into the business before maybe actually making the foundation more stronger. But what about, like you were saying earlier, what you were seeing, the, the actual performance side of it, anything that you're thinking about as a leadership team that you're implementing that you're doubling down on to future-proof the performance so we don't end up in a position where Yeah, performance is good for a couple of months and then they don't do all the other stuff that means that their contract book is still performing in whatever time period. Just some of the principles around, it might be more of the same, might have been the things that you've always championed in the business, but being more clear on them.

But yeah, I mean, yeah, going back to, I think a lot of it's to do with like the metrics and the numbers. I'm spending a lot of, I'm putting a lot of investment into Power BI.

Okay.

I'm a great believer of using the CRM properly. I would still say we're not perfect at it as a business, but everything, if it's not in the system, it doesn't exist. And I think there's so much that can be taken, albeit it's all in hindsight, that can be taken from the numbers that we produce. So having Power BI and having certain dashboards that give you an element of the story or the ingredients as to what's gone into the machine and then what's coming out can only help you make better decisions moving forward. So investment into Automation, the tech stack, CRM, data and analytics is absolutely key for me. The other thing is, I'm not sure what it's like at other agencies, but, you know, reporting can be quite a manual, laborious task and it's what the guys all have to do. It's what we, we, we make everyone do. But if I can speed that up and automate that, I think that will only help us, you know, move forward. So that The bringing on academy and trainees is still going to be key. We're now bringing in a talent acquisition, full-time talent acquisition person, uh, just to solely concentrate on—

do you not have that before?

No. So we've had, um, Hannah's been with us for 16 years actually. She just joined just after me and she's been brilliant. She moved off the desk, uh, one of the top billers on contract back in 2017, and then came on to talent acquisition. But she also did operations, HR, and loads of other things, and she's done a fantastic job in the last 7 or 8 years. But it's got to a point in the business now where it's like you actually need to solely focus on this, and she does HR and legal and all the rest of it. So identified that we need somebody on board, and I want somebody out now looking for the market, mapping the market and speaking to people, and then bringing me talent. You know, the same way I profess to teach, you know, permal contract builders how to, you know, how to recruit. Once you've got a golden nugget, take them to market. And I want somebody doing that internally for me. And, um, I think so. A change of having, say, 95% trainees join every year to something like 75-80%, and then let's get some experience, you know, managers, directors in, uh, senior recruiters, that sort of thing. So that's kind of the strategy moving forward.

Yeah, just to do for people, man, I don't know, may or may not be aware, I only in the last 6 or so months I saw the power of that, uh, Power BI. All my, all my stuff is on like G Suite, so I'm not really a Microsoft, uh, user. But I think what I take from that is really the important lessons that you took during that period, which is if I can make it as easy as possible for everyone to understand and visualize where they're at, where they need to be across the business, downstream from that should be people understand what good performance looks like. Your managers can manage more effectively.

Yeah.

And all that stuff, right? And that, that's when you're a business of your size and the, the leaders I speak to that your size, all of that is so crucial because I don't know what time period you think you can maybe get away with not doing that stuff, whatever headcount, whatever size.

But I mean, it's really varied. Whenever I spoke, spoken to people, and look, it's no, no bad, bad thing on them, it's just it depends what you want, I suppose, as a business owner or as a leader. Do you want a 20, 30-man band who I remember speaking to not too long ago 'We all work from home, we do this. I'm not really looking to grow the company. I don't wanna apply too much pressure.' Providing their billing, their billing. Just sort of go, wow, I'd love to know what you bill per head and what you're doing and how safe that is. But that to me just seems like, you know, anarchy. And then you've got other businesses who are 20, 100, 150 I've spoken to and they've got like 2 or 3 different CRMs. No one's using this, no one's using that. And it's like, how the heck have you got to 150 people? Um, but it's— I just find it without that, you— how can you know what, what the ingredients is to the perfect sort of, you know, potion or whatever it is? So yeah, it is a non-negotiable.

No, I understand like why that's just going to help everything. Yeah, like by you really committing to that and, and having that in the business, even if you think about those conversations that when you was raising the alarm to the leadership team, if you had more of that story to tell, more of the data to tell more clearly, then maybe different.

Like, I didn't have it then, and actually, to be fair, some of the data was checkered then. So actually, I didn't have it to back it up there. I had to do a lot of like, right, manual this, here's a spreadsheet, look, look. And actually, if I'd done— if I had it all to hand, yeah, it probably would have made the conversations a lot easier.

Yeah, so love it. Well, look, I think— I mean, I really appreciate you just being super transparent on this because I know there'll be— like I said to you, like when we did our prep call and stuff, there'll be so many recruitment leaders that have gone through this period. I've just had it in different conversations with different people. They've showed me how hard it's been, what they've learned. But I think you've been really transparent here on the things that you've learned, the things that you're now doing to future-proof your business, to, um, you've continued to commit to leveling up as a leader yourself. Yeah, and I know a lot of people will appreciate that and learn from that. So just a massive appreciation for coming on the pod and sharing.

Well, thank you. Hopefully it's not been too— uh, missing my lines a few times.

All good.

Thank you. But thanks for having me, mate. Appreciate it. Thank you.