How to Build a £1m Contract Book in Any Market with James Gamble

James, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

There's a couple of things that we want to talk about today. We've got sort of two main categories, really. Yeah, we've got things that we should think about as a contract recruiter when weighing up, is it worth to leave or not? Because I feel like when you're a contract recruiter, there's more to walk away from, right? Particularly if you've worked your absolute socks off to build a successful contract book. So we're going to talk a bit about that. We're also going to talk about this MBO journey that you went through. Unfortunately, well, I guess not unfortunate because it's now meant you've launched your own business, I guess, but we'll talk about that. Two failed MBO attempts.

Yeah.

We're going to talk about what did we learn there. And then we're going to get into something that I know that you're super passionate about, which is ultimately James's sort of first principles pillars around building what you think it takes to build a successful contract book in today's market.

Okay.

To give everyone a bit of the, the James highlight reel, let me know if I get any of this wrong. Started your recruitment career in S3, was there for nearly, uh, 5 years. At a peak, you got your weekly GP up to £28K, left when it was on, uh, £25K weekly GP. Then joined the Rethink Group to launch and lead a brand called Infinite Talent. At its peak, you got that weekly GP in that business up to £35K. Left that business, uh, 6 or 7 months ago to launch your own business called NXO Talent. There's now 2 of you in that business, and within 6 or 7 months you've got the weekly GP book up to 7K. Yeah. And your world— we're going to talk a bit about this— but your world is— I've got written here— warehouse management systems, automation, supply chain systems.

Well said. Exactly that. Exactly that, mate. Yeah, exactly that.

So what— why don't we just start Because I do think this is an interesting conversation. The way to maybe frame it would be, because you've done this maybe the second time, it wasn't the original plan, but twice you've had to walk away from a contract book. And I feel like there will be contract recruiters out there that maybe have worked really hard to build their contract book and maybe are starting to lose the love for what they do. They're maybe starting to feel like, actually, can I see my future in this business? But then they look at the money they're earning and they're going, nah, I can't leave that. You can tell me what you think, but like, what, what would be some of the things that you think people should really seriously consider when it comes to, is it worth leaving that on the table? Is it worth leaving that? What, what sort of comes to mind for you? I know it's very personal, but no, no, I just thought it might be an interesting place to start.

No, I think it's a good question. So I think Um, the reason why I left my contract book, um, when I was at, um, Progressive, uh, S3, um, was because— the reason why I left at that level was because I thought, look, I've earned really good money, they've given me the opportunity, I want to walk away with my head held high, um, etc. And but I just didn't believe in what I was going— what I was doing there long term. Now I then went and set up, um, Invert Talent, which I thought I would be able to sort of own eventually, which obviously didn't come to pass. I think the biggest things to be aware of is when you're employed, you never own that contract book, right? And I think it's a real misconception that people think, you know, I've got up to 10K, 20K earning loads and loads of money. And they think, you know what, if I leave, I'm gonna lose all that money. In reality, you don't own the clients, you don't own the revenue. So I think that's a big thing to be cautious of. Ultimately, if you're gonna leave a company, why would you leave it to go into another employed role? I don't see the value in doing that because you don't own it, you have to start again. Um, so I think that's the rationale for me, really.

That's a really— yeah, that's a really interesting— when you say, yeah, actually remember that you actually don't own the contract, but that's, that's a really interesting way to think about actually, isn't it?

Yeah, well, I think the, the biggest thing is, is that I speak to a lot of recruiters that have done very well from, from obviously recruitment, uh, on contracts, and they have this ego of, okay, I've smashed it now, I've got— I'm earning 10, 15, 20 grand a month, whatever. And they have this delusion that those clients are theirs, and they're not. They're whoever the recruitment company's— whoever owns it. So I think that's the big one for me.

So maybe the thing to— it is very individual, right? So, but maybe what's coming up for me is, one, you have to decide, but taking that note in terms of remembering, actually, you don't own this contract book, firstly. What might be worth taking the leap? What might be worth leaving that $10-15K guaranteed, quote-unquote guaranteed, uh, money on the table each month? Could be an opportunity to build a contract book for yourself as an entrepreneur, maybe.

Yeah.

Or maybe in your case, join a business and start it from the ground up and scratch.

Yeah.

The only other thing— you can tell me what you think— the only other thing where maybe it could be worthwhile is you might be the top biller in your environment annual week and your contract book is 10K weekly GP and you might be the, the big dog.

Yeah.

But you then realize that there's people out there doing 25K, 30K. So actually being around other high performers, maybe a different market potentially. I think that's maybe the only other thing coming up for me where it's like might be worthwhile.

Yeah, I think you're, I think you're absolutely right. I think so. When I was at, um, S3, this, because they're obviously, they're an elite recruitment agency and the entry point to get into like the top 20 was £10,000 a week. That was the minimum bar to get into it. So being surrounded by those sort of people that are serious, serious, you know, million pound billers there are not, you know, they churn them out. Um, and, uh, I think, you know, when I went to, um, to Rethink, the expectation, like a top biller there was maybe £5,000 to £10,000. So that mindset shift is massive to be able to understand that, you know, what's your percept— what your perception of being big billaries is very different to some of the big boys. It's really understanding it. £10K weekly GP isn't a massive amount, but some people would think, oh, you've absolutely smashed it. I also think as well, if you look at it, so, you know, if I look at the stuff like with Progressive, when I did £1 million in a year, I probably earned probably £120 grand. So where's the other £820 going? Do you know what I mean? But you don't see that, you just see the you just see the commission check coming through. I think the other reason why I'd look at moving as well is for base salary. Because I think that's one of the, that's a real, real big one for me is always going for that base salary as well. Because when I, you know, when I was at S3, I think I was on £30 grand.

What, by the time you left?

Yeah, by the time I left. I started on £18 and I got to £30. But because you get blinded by the commission, you don't see it. I think the other pitfall is that people will leave when people come, when people become a big biller, inverted commas, they'll then look at management.

Yeah, well, yeah, or not always just down to them, but down to the progression path. The only way I can progress is that.

Yeah. And what you'll find is that just makes you bitter for a lot of people.

Yeah, I think a lot of people agree. Okay, nice. I think, yeah, that just might be helpful for some people listening to this. If you listen to this, you're probably ambitious, want to succeed, want to maximize your potential. And I do think compared to you being a permanent recruiter, like, that there is just— there is more that you're potentially walking away from. I know I really like that perspective, it's not your contract book, but still it's quote-unquote guaranteed revenue. You know what your earnings could be over the next 3, 6 months, whereas a perm recruiter, a good one, they're going to be consistently performing, but it's different. So yeah, I think there's so many good things to think about there. Where, where should we start with this MBO piece then? I guess, what, what's worth, I guess, adding the frame to it is that part of why you went on this journey was you thought you're gonna own it one day. Yeah, right. But in terms of the particulars, from day one you joined as an employee?

Yes.

And what was— how was it like framed? Was it that, James, you'll start here, if this happens you'll get this, or I don't know, like how was it framed?

Uh, well, in, in absolute truth, I think this is a lesson to be learned for people when they go and set up a brand is I was really just very naive around it. So I just assumed that, you know, we'll get to that point of it and being able to be acquired by myself. And I thought, again, naively, it's gonna be straightforward. So it was my own naivety that caused me the issue that I had there, really, to be honest. Because had I, if I knew what I knew now, I'd have said, I want it as a separate limited company straight away, and I want some standing equity to begin with. and they want clear metrics in terms of when I get certain milestones, this is when I can trigger purchase of more equity. But yeah, that was totally on me. I didn't do that.

Fair. So the way that— so literally it was like, I'm glad you share that because people can be drawn in so easily by that carrot. Like we were just talking about Laura before from i8 Solutions, right? And I was asking her, I have some really good friends in the industry who have done really well. And if you do really well, oftentimes depending on the business you're in, the carrot that will end up in front of you is, James, you've— we're going to give you shares in this business and we want to, we want to get to a financial event, we want to get an exit. But just because they say that doesn't actually mean that matches up with their actions. Yeah, that could actually happen, right? So I really appreciate you sharing that, and there'll be a lot of people out there that maybe are just like, I don't know, may not be fully educated on it. That's why these conversations are important. So basically then it sounds like from day one it was you as an employee, basically. So there was no conversation, there was nothing around like, if you do this then that will happen. It was just on like the promise. It was just a promise.

Yeah, it was a promise. And obviously, um, you know, I think that, you know, it is really important to be able to say that it's naivety because, you know, if you're, if you're being— because I got, I got basically got acquired by Rethink Group because they wanted my, the niche that I specialize in to be able to really come complement their clients that they've got. Um, and with that should come a number. Um, because if you're going over and establishing a brand from scratch, all that effort, you know, we created the brand, myself and, um, Dan Haywood, um, who's since now gone to a different organization. But, you know, we did all of that, we've got all the clients, and all the clients thought it was mine, right?

Yeah, I thought it was. Yeah, yeah, because we spoke before.

Yeah, yeah. So perception-wise, everyone thought— so when I set up NXA I've got people calling me saying, I thought it was— I thought Infinite was yours anyway. But it was just a brand, and I was just an employee.

So someone listens to this right now with what you know.

Yeah.

If me and you, yeah, met up in a pub and I'm talking about this opportunity I got, I'm about to, uh, I'm considering joining the business where I'm going to help them launch a brand within their business. It's going to be around this niche that I've just been built a really good track record over the last 3 to 5 years. What would you say would be the sort of non-negotiables that I should try and negotiate then?

So equity, and actual equity, so Class A shares straight away, and with very clear metrics of when you get to certain milestones, you will be triggered the opportunity to be able to acquire further equity.

Yes.

And I would never do what I did again now. Obviously got my own business now, so it's not going to take into effect. But I think you can get blinded by ego when you mention MBOs. It's a nice little thing, isn't it? You know, you speak with the board, it's all exciting, you see the numbers, you sort of shit yourself a little bit in terms of finance and debt and all that sort of stuff. Um, but the reality is, is that I would never look at an MBO again.

When did the sort of potential— when did it happen the first time then? Because I've got here two failed MBO attempts. Let's talk a bit about, I guess, the, the first one. When did that start to become like a potential option?

Well, I think so. During COVID we did really, really well. You know, we had a really large client with Clipper Logistics that we did all the NHS PPE contract for. So that sort of proved to me that we had a business that was solid because obviously everybody else was really, really struggling predominantly. And it was then I thought to myself, I'm hurtling towards 40. I need to push these conversations now. I really need to push it.

Because up until that point, had there been any conversations?

No.

Unless you brought it up, or no?

Unless I brought it up, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think in reality I just wasn't taken that seriously in terms of, um, you know, is he actually going to do it? And actually, would he leave having built it again? Would he actually go and, you know, go off and do his own thing? So I really— so 2023 was— that wasn't really an MBO. That was a— I think they were just trying to court me slightly and sort of keep me on a bit of a leash. Um, the last one of last year went over a 12-month period. So that was a real serious one that was going out talking financials and all that sort of stuff. And there was a figure that they gave me.

Who's they?

The board. And I spoke to a lot of people from a finance perspective and they were just like, look, if you're as good as what you say you are, don't do it. Don't pay for something that you've built. So just go and do it again. It might take you back 2, 3 years to get to that point, but at least you'll own that business without debt. So again, over that 12-month period I said, look, if I can't get to a number where we're all comfortable, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna set up doing exactly the same thing. So it was all very crystal clear.

Yeah, nice. Let's just break this down a bit, 'cause I think there'll be some bits in here that'll be helpful for people. So one, just to make it really easy for people to understand, the end goal that you was aiming for was that you was gonna buy out the people that basically owned Infinite Talent, basically. And you was aiming to get what, majority shareholding?

The whole thing.

The whole thing. Okay, so that was the, that was the end goal.

Yeah.

Obviously you didn't own any, you had no equity in it, right? So that, that was the end goal. Okay. In terms of what I'm always interested to understand was in these conversations is when you was— let's start here— what were some of the early, like, lessons when you started having these financial conversations and getting the business value, stuff like that? Because I feel like that can be really scary to a lot of people. Might feel really out of their depth. I'm a recruiter, I'm doing deals, not made to go in front of HSBC and say, this is why you should lend me the money. Do you know what I mean? What were some of the early things that you had to learn quite quickly?

I think a true cash flow P&L, because as a salesperson, you know, you do your deal, goes in the system, it somehow gets paid along the way. You don't, you know, salespeople have got no interest in how stuff is paid. Until it's your own and then you're very, very much aware of it. So I think, you know, the thing for me was it made me, I keep using this word naive, it made me realise how naive I am in terms of the day-to-day runnings of a business. So, you know, going to speak about debt and then seeing a number of what I was quoted, really, really scary. I think you also get dictated to with people that, you know, CFOs and CEOs and all that sort of stuff around. 'Yeah, this is the number.' And, you know, I didn't feel strong enough to be able to go, 'Actually, I think it should be this amount.' So on the first one, very, very naive. I was just led by what I was told. And, um, I think going out to the market and getting real quality external advice is absolutely essential. So that's what I did. I got some people that I trusted that gave me real, real quality advice so I could make an informed decision in terms of what I was doing. Because, you know, Infinite for me was a, um, was something I put everything into. You know, it was, it was literally started as my son was born, quite literally. So, you know, the journey that I went on and the people that we brought in and seeing it as a brand, um, and to see that go was, was pretty tough. Pretty tough. Yeah.

Where, like, where, where do things even, like, start? So, like, did you go to banks initially? Like, you know, when you said you've got external expertise, what, from people that had been through an MBO, or is it actual financial advice?

Yeah, so people that have gone through MBOs and then also, um, finance brokers. So people have been through MBOs before, they referred me through to other people. So I didn't go to an HSBC and go, can I have a, you know, can I have a loan or whatever? It was more going through the brokers and understanding the metrics behind it. But it was just, it just was not something I wanted to do. It was just untenable, the amount of money that it would have cost me each month. But yeah, still a wrench. Not ideal.

And then last few bits on this then. What— so basically, this— the typical, from what you learned in that process, it might look very different for each MBO deal, I don't know, but the, the sort of structure and aim that might have meant it happened would have been that you would have lent— you would have got lent the money.

Yeah.

From a bank, or from maybe, I don't know, like, did you speak to any private equity firms? Maybe. I'm not sure. Was it mainly banks?

It's many banks.

Okay, so they would have loaned James the money.

Yeah.

You would have then paid the people that own the business.

Yep.

And then there was— there's going to be then what you owe and how long you've got to pay it back.

Correct.

That would have been how you would have structured it. Yeah, yeah. But I think you said to me a lot of how it was structured, it was like it was weighted against James, not Infinite Talent.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So it would have been put my house on.

Yeah, exactly.

As well, right? So which my wife was very understanding about, which is unbelievable.

She's like, if you really want to do it, like, I really want to do it, I'll back you.

Yeah. But it was doing personal guarantees with, with the house. I would have had to have kept the offices that Infinite were in as well. And obviously we've kept all the staff. So, you know, it would've been significant levels of financial expenditure, which I just wasn't in for because I was so fundamental in building that business. So it's not like I was an MD and, you know, away from the coalface. I was still so much on the sales front. I just thought I need to break away and get it done. But I think the hardest thing about, you know, it's not for everybody, this side. It's really, really, really tough, the learning curve that you have to go on. I think some people, when they think, you know, successful recruiter, they think it's really easy over the other side. It isn't, unless you've got real, real discipline and real, real market knowledge. It's not as easy as what people think.

No, I really appreciate you being super honest around it. And I know you've used that word naive, but I think for me, the lesson there for people listening is if you're in a position where you're maybe speaking with the other directors in the business that you're in, where you're talking about, yeah, maybe we could actually achieve an MBO, the founder's spoken about it, or maybe not that, it might be that you and your other directors are being sold that there is going to be a potential financial event, whatever it may be, really leaning into if there's stuff that you're not confident in or understand or know on like the quote-unquote business stuff. Not the recruitment side, the sales side, like the cash flow, like the— okay, when we send out an invoice, how often does it normally take? There's gonna be a bunch of things. But I think for me, from hearing you talk, and this is really common, the lesson there is like lean into that stuff.

Yeah.

And if— because if you think about it from their perspective, talking the board perspective, why would they bring it up? Why? They weren't obviously— what, they're not motivated? They're not motivated to go like, James, like why don't we have a session this quarter and talk about, you know, our profit margins and how we like, whatever. Yeah, like it's, it's not in their interest, right? So yeah, the people aren't just going to hand this stuff to you. And that is where then obviously founders above you ultimately have a bit of, um, lack of power really. So like, if you're listening to this and you're like, you know what, I actually don't understand exactly how we go from sending an invoice to getting paid or whatever, the legals, lean into it. Yeah, be curious about it. Ask, like, I really want to learn about this.

Yeah, I think that for me, I'm pretty good at like a bit of a SWOT analysis of myself. So I know that I'm very good on the sales side, right? I know that I've got a very good track record in there, but like accounting, finance, all that sort of stuff about running a business, very weak. So what I've done, what I've always done it with all my career anyways, where I'm weak, I find people that are specialists and I just say to them, can I learn from you? I said, talk to me like an idiot because 9 times out of 10 they'll say real stupid things around invoicing and all that sort of stuff. Credit control at Rethink absolutely hated me because I was literally like, just send the invoice, don't worry about it, it'll get paid at some juncture. I think you really need to put a mirror up to yourself and go, where am I strong, where am I weak, how do I get myself from being weak to strong? That's what we need to do and just improve in those areas. Don't be arrogant, I think is the main thing.

Yeah. And like, and if it ends up being a lot of those things that you said, non-sales stuff, yeah, don't expect people to come to you with like, hey James, like, yeah, like I'm going to talk to you about credit control. Like, no, you have to go out there and learn about it.

Yeah, you have to, and you have to drop your ego, and you have to go and say, I don't know what I'm going on about in this world, like, can you help me? So I think that— but with me, it's been 6 months, I'm, I'm still frustrated that I don't understand everything as, as well as what I need to.

Um, but the— the— I feel like you can tell me what you think, but you know, you was— I'd say like you was building that business, okay, you wasn't an expert in those areas and you're still learning, right, when you was employed. But like, like a lot of people view that as your business. I'm sure you viewed it as your business, but like, I think the entrepreneurial journey is like learning. Like, it's just learning, always learning. I mean, always like, it never stops. Yeah, I don't know if you are going to be an expert ever, but you can definitely improve.

Yeah, I, I think you touched about, you know, saying the Infinite was mine, how I alluded to earlier about the contractor book, thinking it's yours. The reality of it, as you said, is I was an employee Yeah, under the guise that I thought I was an owner, but I wasn't. It's mental, you know, co-founder. So when I was at, um, when I was at, uh, Progressive, I think, yeah, my title was Global Head of Domestic Delivery, but it was just me, you know what I mean? So like, perception's key, right? So yeah, um, but yeah, I think that's the, the biggest one for me if I'm talking about MBOs is about get the figure that you feel comfortable with get external advice and be absolutely on point with the directors or the owners on timelines and holding them accountable to those timelines. Because ultimately, as you alluded to earlier, you said like, why would they want to, why would they want to let you go? Why would they want to, um, sorry, why would they not want to sell the business? So why would they want to bring up the conversation around, uh, the business when they're making loads of money?

Yeah, exactly. So that, I think, yeah, it's like to build on what you just said, you've got to be— you've got to be hungry for these conversations. You've got to like— like, I appreciate you being honest, she was naive at the start or whatever, but if you're listening to this and you're like, you know what, actually there's probably some conversations I need to have that I haven't really had, I haven't had the courage to ask— it's particularly if you're employed, the founder, they're not incentivized.

No.

To bring it up because they'd be like, yeah, James is happy, he's making money, we don't really need to speak to him about how he could own this business one day. Yeah, why would they?

I think the other thing as well is it's how integral are you to that, that desk that you've built or the, you know, the brand that you're creating. If you go, how detrimental is it if you go? If it's highly detrimental when, if you were to go, you've got much more of a bargaining tool. But you know, some recruiters might have done 10, 15, 20 grand with one client that's a key account of that business. That's a different, you're not as important then. So I think that's something to really sort of focus on as well.

Yeah, for sure. Okay, but safe to say going through that MBO experience, not for the faint-hearted. No, no, that's harder than that.

It, it's, it, it's really psychologically challenging because you're having to do all the sales still, having to vote, trying to do that as well as a big, big distraction. Um, and I think it's also when you come to realization that you're not going to do it, it's highly emotional as well because you are walking away from a whole thing that you've built and staff and all that sort of stuff. So really, really emotional point for me, um, and not for the faint-hearted.

It's almost— I experienced it a bit. I raised a small amount of money for my business, and like, it is another job, isn't it? Yeah, it's literally— it's like, it takes up a lot of mental capacity, energy. But then, like you said, you might have had a really difficult conversation in the evening about that, and then you've got a shot tomorrow morning with—

be on point.

It's mad. That's the hard thing, I think.

Yeah, I think because you feel responsible for, you know, the team and all that sort of stuff, you know, the impact it has if that MBO doesn't go through, um, on the team and their livelihoods. And, you know, some of the people been with me for 10 years, you know, so it's, um, yeah, big, big things. And also, in my opinion, why would you do an MBO if you're the specialist in that field? Why would you, why would you pay top money for something that you can go and build in 2 years, 18 months? Because even if you do, you could sell a lot less and earn more.

I think, yeah, like, I, I feel like from the conversation— I haven't had loads of conversations on successful MBOs, I've had a few. I think in your instance, I'd like— I'd probably say, yeah, you're probably right. But a lot of the MBOs that when I spoke to people, it's like a leadership team, it's not just one person. I feel like you're going to be really passionate about that because it's all on you, you were taking all the risk.

Yeah.

And also, and also if you think about it, the reason why it didn't happen was because you probably felt the number was unfair.

Yeah.

Whereas a lot of the MBOs that I do have spoken to and it's been, and it's gone through, it's normally been a leadership layer, not just one person, although sometimes it has been, and there's been a number that they've, they've got to that they think's fair.

Yeah, if you're splitting it down like 4 ways.

Yeah, like, and most people I've spoken to, it wasn't like, okay, let's do it, and I'm also going to have to put my livelihood on the line and my house Yeah, like, it was a big— like, I get why you'd say that, but there was a— it was a big risk for you.

Yeah.

And I understand why you'd feel like that risk was unfair considering how much time, energy, blood, sweat, tears that you'd already put into it at that point.

Yeah, I think as well, it's what, what your why is, you know. Like, like, for me, I want to get to a point where I can get acquired, but everything that I do is for, you know, Philippa and Archie. So, you know, my wife and, and 6-year-old. So I took away looking after everybody else and focused on them. Um, that was my motivation for doing it.

And still very much— what, we're like 6, 7 months now into your own entrepreneurial journey where you own the business?

Yeah.

You're not an employee?

Yeah.

Is it something that, just to round this bit out, is it something that you still wrestle with today? Or like, I mean, it's still, it's still within the first year, still probably going to be— there's going to be some pain in there, or no? Or you like you're quite a piece of it now.

I think doing your first deal is just the biggest thing in the world because it's proof, you know, imposter syndrome and all that sort of stuff. It took me 3 months to do my first deal, but I actually did 2 on the same day. Bizarrely, they all come in, don't they? So I think nothing's changed for me from what I've done over the last 10 years, if I'm being honest. It's just now the learning and the mechanism about getting the money in. So it doesn't feel any different really. Other than the fact, as I said, it's about learning about, you know, how do you invest the money, you know, in people and all that sort of stuff. I think is really, really interesting. 'Cause I don't wanna just stay as 2 people, you know, I wanna get to 5, 6, 7 people, that sort of level. And also how I look at it now is all the money I'm generating is to be reinvested. In the business. So I'm going to take minimal amounts of money out of the business for the next 2 years.

Okay, so should we talk a bit about your philosophies and about what you've been doing really well, you think, or how, yeah, people listen to this can have some of the success that you've had? So when we thought about the sort of key building blocks, almost the first one that we spoke about was this market knowledge piece.

Yep.

Why don't you just maybe— why don't we just start? Because we put here deep understanding of your market. I know this, everyone would have heard this, right? So interested to hear your take on what that actually means. But how did you— did you— I think you said to me when we prepared for this, like, you stumbled across this niche almost.

Yeah, it's a very famous story, really, how I fell across.

Tell us a bit about it then.

So I love telling this because you've—

how long you've been doing this niche?

12 years.

Okay, nice.

Yeah, so, um, I joined recruitment because I got made redundant from the bank when I was doing mortgages. And, um, I'm gonna go off on a tangent here now because it's a war story. Um, and, uh, when I was at S3, I went and— so I thought, look, where can I make some money? Recruitment seems like a viable option. Didn't tell anybody I was in recruitment because I was quite embarrassed about it. So I thought it was like car sales. And, you know, S3, um, I was doing a very generic market around like project managers, BAs, And, uh, you have to send a mailshot out to the database at like 12 o'clock. Um, and my one was, are you currently recruiting, was a subject title. And then it said, I recruit for BAs, PMs, if you're interested let me know. Like an awful email. Uh, and there was a client came back who's a vice president of SEVA Logistics and said, we don't recruit those, but we do recruit Red Prairie. Red Prairie is what this WMS, the warehouse management system, was called. And, um, I was like, he goes, have you got anybody? I was like, yeah, obviously, obviously, whilst Googling Red Prairie, right? Um, and I thought, ah, I like that, that's a niche. I placed 2 contractors with him in the Netherlands, and then because it was such a niche, I thought, well, surely every warehouse has a system, so then all I need to do is build that out. And that's how it came about.

I love that.

But most importantly, so it's when you, when you stumble across your niche, it's how do you build out that niche. A lot of people might have just gone, I've just filled two random roles. It's like, how would you actually properly build that out? Because I was the first recruiter to do that market.

Yeah. So let's talk a bit about that then. So like, stumbled— that's such a cool story, I love that. But I think the key there is that you was willing to go, yeah, I can get you people.

Well, it was funny as well because I actually rang the client about 3 or 4 years later and I was like, David, I just want to say thanks ever so much for what you've done. He was like, what are you going on about? I said, well, yeah, you helped me on the journey. He was like, yeah, you just found me a couple of people in the Netherlands, James. Like, it's not a big thing. Like, didn't care at all.

Yeah, that's funny.

Um, so yeah, I mean, I think it is just building, as you said, like, it's just building out that niche and understanding that it's a niche and how you can add value is massively important.

So let's just break that down a bit. So we've got here market knowledge, deep understanding of— we put the tech here because obviously that's involved in like the deep, um, understanding of what the people that you work with actually do, what the companies need, staying informed. And we also put like leveraging events and stuff. But let— like, what— because we hear this so much. So when you said like building out the niche, what does it actually look like? So if I came to you and I was in your team, yeah, and we stumbled— I don't know, maybe we identified a certain niche, it was a certain I don't know, another warehouse, um, program that certain warehouses would use if they're producing certain types of products. If I came to you and go, I found this niche and I've mapped it out and like I know it, what would you expect to see from me?

What do you mean?

So you know you said that you have to like proper build it out?

Yeah.

I want to understand from your perspective what that actually means. Do you know what I mean? So like if I— if we are— if we, we both identified somewhere.

Yeah.

And I went away and I thought, I'd fill it out.

Yeah.

What do you expect to see?

So, so my thing would be, what's the top 15, 20 contractors in that space and how many clients use that technology? And you should know every single client that uses that technology, first of all. And then you should do market research in terms of speaking to contractors and saying, okay, what's the market like in this, in this area? How long are contracts generally? How many upgrades are there, new implementations, etc., to understand the size of it? Because like you can have a niche that has one person that does it, right? There's no point in that niche. It's about how is it scalable. And I think you need to really truly speak to the people that are on the ground that understand that world and are passionate about it. And also not bullshit them as well. Whenever I went into that market, I was like, I've got no idea what I'm going on about. Can you teach me? Can you tell me about it? So I think market knowledge is one that is just so thrown around. As well. Everyone says they're a market specialist, etc. Um, but I think, you know, you, you just have to understand the technologies, uh, really well and understand the clients that are going to be using that technology. And that's really quite straightforward to find out. It's not complex.

Whenever I have these conversations, it does always start with the contractors and candidates. Like, just interested to hear your take. Like, for you, if I'm listening to this and I'm fairly early on.

Yeah.

Why would a contractor give me their time?

Because you're being honest.

Okay.

So it's amazing what honesty does. So, you know, if you sit down, if I— so when I sit down with the contractor now, like, we'll look at going into a new version of the business that we've never really gone into around SAP EWM. So never really touched on it historically. And what we're doing is we're going to meet them and say, look, We specialise in these other areas around warehouse management.

Contractors, is this you?

Contractors, yeah. And consultancies as well. So we specialise in these areas of WMS. We're dominant in these areas. We're not in this area. Can you just tell me about it? Like, tell me the idiot's guide. All right. You can tell that I'm very much specialised in these other areas. I want to get into this area. We'll be able to probably place you as well because we apply the same methodology as what we've done. Just talk to me.

Okay.

And people love talking about themselves. So why wouldn't they? It's if you call them up and try and say, yes, I've done SAP EWM for the last 10 years, recruitment, and they go, do you know what EWM stands for? And you go, no. All credibility is gone. If you're honest and authentic with people, why wouldn't they want to give you your time?

Is part of it also, do you think you'd get more traction, more conversations, if also part of the approaches that you specialize in X as well?

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think, well, for an example, like John, who's recently joined me, no understanding around WMS at all, but he's building out like the sort of tier 2 solutions, SAP EWM being one of them. And he's doing exactly what I've said. He's saying, look, James, you probably heard, you may or may not have heard of, but he's been in this market for 12 years, works with all these different clients, UK, Europe. We're looking at expanding into this area as well now. Can I just get some of your time? Just being really honest and authentic.

What's like the hit rate on that? 95%. Really?

Yeah, if not 100%.

Fair. Do you think it's important to try and like also give something to them though, besides being honest, being authentic? Or is that not actually that important? Because like, if you end— because I feel like if you end up actually doing really well in this space, it's really beneficial for them.

Obviously it's really beneficial for them. So if you go on there and say, I've got a job, you know, recruiting— how many people put on LinkedIn that have been ghosted by a recruiter, or the job's been fake, or whatever? Like If you can say we're building out this, if I can understand how good you are in that market, when these opportunities come up, which they will, we'll take you to market to try and get you some work as well. We build long-term relationships. Why wouldn't you want to do— why wouldn't you do that? The most important thing though is around the follow-up after the initial call.

Okay.

So people just don't follow up with people. I just don't— I don't understand it. Like, hey, why wouldn't you want to meet somebody to go through it face to face with them, take the time and the effort? And then why wouldn't you follow up and go, I've heard this project is kicking off, we're going to try and get you in here, or have you got any connections that could help us get in there or whatever it is?

So when you say follow up, you don't mean directly straight away after that call, you just mean in general in terms of like, I only speak to you once and then we haven't speak, we don't speak for a long time.

Yeah. Otherwise you're rinsing somebody for information with no form of benefit for them at all. So I think, yeah, that regular contact saying, look, we've heard this project's going to be kicking off, we're going to try and get you in the mix or whatever it would be, is just vitally important. But that's why it's, it's good what I'm doing over with NXA at the moment, because it really isn't difficult to be really quite outstanding in the recruitment market because the standard is so low.

You're right, you're all right, it's so low. It is just doing those things consistently, consistency, discipline.

Yeah, as Denzel Washington said.

So do you think, I'll be on it, like, just being really honest here, I've heard this a lot more in like the contract space, and it's around what you're talking about here. Do you think— I think what happens a lot is this fake job thing. Yeah, that happens a lot, doesn't it?

Mental.

What— so what is like— why— so why do people do that?

So do you want the inner workings and the truth?

Yeah, let's just keep it real.

Just to get under the hood.

Yeah, let's just keep it real because I, I've, I've come across that a lot because like so much of building a market is like through the contractor information.

Yep.

So I, I just, I've just come across that so much more.

So basically, the, the, so the rationale behind it is that somebody will post a fake job to get to speak to candidates about it, uh, and then get, um, places where they, where they're interviewing to try and get that work on, in the main, to generate candidates to speak to.

Okay, that's the main goal. Yeah, right.

Which is why recruiters got such a bad, um, reputation.

Is it not, is not part of it also, I haven't really got anything to speak to James about, so I'd rather like act as if I have So me and James have more of a reason to speak because I've got a potential project to speak to him about.

Yeah, but like, how stupid is that?

I don't know, but that's what— is that also potentially part of it, or no? Or is the main reason like, I want to get leads, I want to get in, I want to see where they've been before, where they go back to, like that sort of stuff?

Um, but you know, for me, it knocks all your credibility, doesn't it? Yeah, I've seen some horror stories when someone said they've got a job at, um, DHL as an example, as the job they're recruiting for, and the guy's gone, well, I'm there currently and they're not recruiting. Yeah, that's what I mean. So I think that's what I mean about the bar being so, so low.

Hmm.

Do you be honest? Like, literally just be honest and authentic. Because this is the thing, Hishem, as well, right, is that the thing that I really struggle with is that recruit— so my wife can't understand, and my dad certainly can't understand recruitment. But you're placing people with people. It's a people business. But yet we don't take the time to go and meet these people and just be authentic and be human. Don't understand it.

Like, why people wouldn't do that, mental, or why they don't think it's important, mental.

I literally just— I do not, I do not understand it. Yeah.

The, the thing that you mentioned earlier, which I thought was interesting, which you sort of just said off the cuff as well, was You also need to understand the scale of these projects. Just tell me a bit more about that, because you said if you come across a niche or something, maybe a particular tool or software that people use, but then in terms of like rolling out in a business, or there's a certain project that— I don't know exactly how it works, but like it just involves one person rolling that out— that isn't really what you want. Just tell me a bit more about that, because I think that was interesting.

Well, I think when you stumble across a, um, niche like how I did. I could have, you know, and I only realized there's one or two people that use that technology, so, so totally irrelevant. So I think what you need to understand when you are building out a contract book or in within a niche, because I'm only ever been in that sort of area, is how many users are there? What is the actual— how many contractors are out there? So what's— what percentage of the market is there that you could obtain realistically? So in my world, like, the, the probably the total weekly GP you can get up to would, as a maximum, would probably be £40K.

Okay, what are you basing that off though? What, like LinkedIn searches or what?

I know every single candidate in that market. Okay, fact, genuinely.

But like, okay, but like, how? But you didn't at one point.

Yeah, I didn't at one point.

So like, how— so how would you map out the potential of a contract book? Would it be LinkedIn?

LinkedIn, yeah, absolutely, LinkedIn. And then, you know, like little things, like when, um, you go on to, uh, like a CV library or job, you know, where job boards, wherever it is, and you type in that technology and you, and then you do updated ever. So it brings up every single, yeah, one, and then you're just speaking to all those candidates and mapping it out. Yeah. Um, but yeah, you just have to know, you have to know what the scale of it is. But obviously with my technology, as I said before, every warehouse has a warehouse management system and that is global.

Yeah. And then, so, okay, so part of it is how many people actually specialise in and do it.

Yeah.

But then the other part was saying like, so if I'm rolling out this, I don't know how it works, I'm acting stupid here, but if I'm a warehouse and I'm rolling out this software, you're saying what would also be a really good green flag is that in order to do that, there's like 10 contractors need to do that, not just one.

Yeah, exactly that. And also it's the longevity. So like the programmes work that I get involved in now are, some of them are 8 years.

Wow.

Yeah. The average contract length in the market is 6 months as a minimum. So you know you're not going to get a load of churn. And I mean, the other thing as well, what I'd recommend to people— and so what I actually— I actually may sound like I created the universe, but I created the contract market in WMS. So I took— so I don't know how I managed to come up with this, but basically, um, so a permanent person would be— it back then would have been paid 40 grand per— okay, 30 grand per maybe. So what I was doing was I was ringing them and saying, I'm going to get your contract for £300 a day, £400 a day, whatever. And they're on a one month's notice period. So I took a lot of people out of perm into contracting. And because the rates were a lot lower because they were permanent, there's good margins to be had on that as well. And the client was really happy, the candidate was really happy because they were earning far more money than what they've ever earned as well. So I probably took 50 to 100 people out of permanent work into contracting.

And is that still the case now? Yeah, that's still part of the game. Okay, I want to get into that because I've come— that I've come across that a lot as well, and I'm interested about that. Okay, in terms of what that looks like, I guess, to wrap— just to round out this bit here then, we also put staying informed. Like, what does that look like to you? Obviously making sure you were speaking to a network. Yeah, knowing who's the best. So like, that, that's part of it. Anything else again that we're doing? Is it just conversations, meeting people, speaking to people? Is there anything else that we can do to actually stay informed?

I think little things like being subscribed to newsletters around your industry is really, really important. Gives you market information. So in my world, I get like, there's a magazine called the Logistics Manager, which lets me know where new sites are being built and stuff like that. So you can follow that information. I mean, even in my world, I've got relationships with people at CBRE that build the warehouses. So I know when they're going to be going up ahead of when anybody else does. I think you have to get as much market information from as many areas as what you can do, as many touch points, um, as many trends as possible as well. I think it's really, really important, but you only get that from the end users or the people that physically are doing those systems. Um, it's just really truly immersing yourself in that world. I'm incredibly passionate about this.

That was my next question. I can tell how passionate you are. Yeah. Do you think you have to be Uh, without question. Really?

Yeah.

So you think if I was to do your market?

Yeah.

And I wasn't that—

I'd get highly irritated with you.

But like, I wasn't that passionate about warehouse software or logistics?

Yeah.

You think that would impact my success?

You wouldn't be successful. Really? Yeah.

Do you think that's across market? You've seen that, you've worked in bigger businesses and stuff, like, do you think that plays out?

Yeah, I think it's, it's a passion. It's not just about the market. I mean, I love my market, right? So that, you know, when I'm driving the car and my wife in the car and you see a lorry go by and I go, do you know what warehouse management system they use? And she's like, I don't give a fuck, basically. I couldn't care less. Um, so, uh, it's passionate about that, but it's passionate about people.

People in the industry, just people.

So, you know, the biggest success, the biggest thing that I love in my job is seeing the amount of people that have managed to change their lives. The byproduct of that for me is money. Do you know what I mean? So like, how fantastic is it that you can take people on a journey, hold their hand, change their lives with either a great, great career or more money or whatever it would be, um, so they can provide for their families and all the rest of it? That's the beauty of what we do. We change people's lives, and people often just forget about that and look at it like a transaction, um, you know. So I think that's real. I think it's really— you've got to be passionate. Gotta care.

Fair enough. Yeah, I think, yeah, because you hear that a lot as well, but you can tell how much of an edge that'll give you, but also how much it's gonna— there's gonna be a higher chance you can do this for the long run, which is when you're going to really reap the rewards for your hard work.

Yeah, and if you're not passionate about it, you're not going to do the extra work you need to. It's been detrimental to me, literally been detrimental with how much, how much work I've done. And, you know, I've struggled to switch off and You know, I've done close a deal at a family wake and all sorts. Yeah, like mental, mental. But I just lit— I love it. So I— every day for me, I just love it. Literally every single morning I wake up and I do my 2 hours work on a Saturday and a Sunday, get some business development going and all the rest of it. I just love it.

Just love it.

Yeah.

So the next thing that we got then is knowing your numbers. Yeah, let's get into this. So, yeah, curious to hear your take on this. The— when you've had that your contract booker is Pete.

Yeah.

What typically did the client spread look like? And then my follow-up question is, what if we were to build out the perfect contract book that was diversified perfectly? What do you think that would look like? But typically, what did your diversification look like? Because a lot of big hitters contract-wise I've spoken to, they've ended up landing this like one monster account.

Yeah. And then it's like generated most of their Yeah, so I think that it's spread really, a good spread is like 10 clients, I would say, in terms of mitigating risk then, because there's always a chance that funding is going to get pulled. There's always a chance the project's going to be pulled early or whatever. So I think it's like, if you can mitigate it so that if you did get, I've seen it so many times where literally the consultants had a call saying, we've terminated your contractors and going like 10 grand weekly GP just gone. Within 4 weeks. So, um, I think being over 10 makes it safer as well, and I think it means that you're not just relying on one account where people can just get really lazy.

So what— so why 10 clients? Why do you think that's a bit of like a good— so when you say 10 clients, how many contractors across each of those clients do you think?

I don't think there's a set number, to be honest with you. I think that, you know, if you can get, um, you know, 2 to 3 contractors at each one of those clients The reason why I say 10 is because again, what recruiters do in the main, what I've noticed is they'll win a client, place a contractor, move on to the next client. They won't nurture that relationship and really go out there and understand of how many contracts have you got, how many, how many times you go external with an agency, what you spend. I mean, like, I'm going for a slight tangent, but when I, when I first started doing the domestic market, I won M&S as a client many years ago. And I went and saw him at Waterside House and I was speaking to the director. I was like, come on, I'm smashing it here, aren't I, with these contractors? I've got 10, 15 contractors, whatever. And he was like, James, how many people do you think M&S employed just at Waterside? I was like, no idea. He says something like 5,000. He goes, how many do you reckon are contractors? I said, no idea. He goes, half. So like, again, perception of what good looks like.

That's such a good lesson.

Such a good— I mean, absolutely. You know, me and my little— yes, in my little world I was dominating, you know. You said you're killing it as well.

Yeah, I was like, I'm absolutely smashing it in there now.

Thank you ever so Spanish, German, it's like you've got such a small percentile. But I think if you, what you want to get to a point of is being, doing a great level of service for these clients, but also knowing that you should be able to get repeat business, you know, 2 or 3 opportunities a month from 10 clients really is what you would sort of hope. And then it makes the business development a lot, lot easier. I think if you stay one track with one client, it's very, very, very high risk. Very high risk.

So what, because you've obviously learned how to do this now consistently. I was literally speaking to someone today about how they're training their team to do more of this because they just all contract, can very much just be like deal, move on, deal, move on. So if I was to place 1, 2 contractors into a client and we've identified, or I know that they're probably hiring other contractors like, what, what would you do in, I don't know, maybe the next 90 days from me having that initial success with them? Am I— are you saying to me, Hishem, we need to get into that office and meet them?

Absolutely.

Like, what, what am I doing those next 90 days that could lead to, like, repeat business, do you think?

Yes, I think, um, for me, when you take a role brief from a, from a new client, you have to put out your store in terms of how you recruit and how you've shown it's been successful. Because a lot of clients will go, just send me a CV. Right? And I've gone out to 12 other agencies and all that sort of stuff. Never get hold of them. Really poor commitment. What you want to be able to do is put back to them and say, this is what works, right? And part of that is the after-placement meeting. I keep going about meetings with people, but like, people just don't meet people. I just don't, I just don't, don't understand it. So for me would be first 30 days meeting that client to do an after-placement review, meeting the contractor afterwards, because it can be a bit awkward if you've got the contractor and the client and the contractor's doing a shit job and you can't really say, the client can't really say much. So I think that's a real, really important one. And then meeting the candidate maybe a couple of weeks afterwards or something like that, but saying to him, like speaking to him frequently and just saying, what are the projects that are going on? How many of the contractors are there? And then doing a lunch, bringing the contractors that aren't via you to a lunch as well, because they'll all, 99% of people go, I've never met a recruiter. I haven't met my own recruiter.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. So I think that's the, that's the most important one. And just them knowing that you're present when they need resource, because what you always want to understand is like red, amber, green projects of work. So the clients I speak to, I go like, over a rolling quarter or a 6-month period, what projects think are definitely going to land, which ones think are potential, and which ones like an absolute flyer, but if they come off, you're going to need resource. So we benchmark and resource them all the time in terms of this is what the talent's available should you require.

You get the client to share their pipeline, right? That's interesting. And then you give them a category of like green, amber, red.

Yeah, exactly that. And then you know then that there's just gonna be— you shouldn't just look at what is coming in day to day. That's all— shouldn't— that always needs a focus. But what is, what is going to be coming in and what percentage is that going to land?

And when you're doing that type of meeting, is that like what, once you've had some success with them? Obviously not going to do that when— when would you do that type of meeting? Is this after like you've actually started to work with them?

What, the red, amber, green? Yeah, I would do it before we've even placed with them.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if I want to get in with a client, that's where I say, this is how I go above and beyond. This is what I do with your competitor, and you're probably gonna know who it is. So I say, with this client, this is his name, this is what I do for him, this is what's been successful, this is where I can do better than what the other recruiters are that you partnered with at the moment. So it's almost like a way of differentiating yourself, um, as well.

Love that. I really like— because you're— because what you're doing there is you're getting them to not just think about send me CVs, I need this contractor.

Yep.

You're getting them to think about, well, this is where we are today, and actually, yeah, this is what we're also already planning for. Yeah, etc.

Well, then you're a resource partner. Yeah, you're resourcing the projects for them.

It's that perception again, isn't it?

Perception. Yeah, exactly.

But you're intentionally getting them to think about that and talk about that, right? You're not just talking to them about, yeah, I've got this person that's done this.

And to your point, when you're saying about contractors, about fake jobs, when you're speaking to the contractors, you can go, I've got a site of these projects that are coming in with this client. Yeah, this should be coming in. I'd love to get you in the mix on it.

It's the market information again, market intel. I love that. So one thing that people can take from there then, if you've not got some sort of after-placement care meeting as part of your process, you need to implement that. Yeah, sharpish.

I mean, I think that's the, that's the thing I don't get again with recruiters is like when I said before about they don't own the contact book. But they— it's a reflection they don't own the contract book because they don't give enough time and attention to really go and meet these people. I keep on going about the meeting thing. I just, I just don't get it. I, I just don't get it. Okay, people can't be asked.

Well, let's just talk about then, because you've meant— you've like, you've mentioned it a lot. What does— so you do the UK and Europe market?

Yeah. And I've also been in Egypt as well, which has been a bit curveball. Okay. In Cairo.

So like, okay, so let's just get your take on this then. If I've had a month and I say to you, James, I've had a good month of meetings, what are you expecting to see?

What's their definition of what a good meeting is? I think when I first started out, I thought a good meeting— and I hate this term now, when I look back at it, I cringe— we say, are you around for a coffee? Horrific. Okay, I'm in the area, right? Who cares, right? So what, what have you got out of that meeting? And what I mean by that is, is there terms that's been agreed? Is there future projects? And what's the market information? Anyone can go and just book a meeting in a canteen. There's no value behind it.

Okay.

So I think you have to have measurables in terms of like, what does good look like from a meeting?

Well, let's break that down then. But firstly, I know we're talking about quality there, but quantity matters as well. We're not going to get anywhere near quality if we're not meeting enough people.

I disagree with you, actually.

Oh really?

Yeah, I think it's better to have 5 high-quality meetings.

Yeah, but in terms of like what I want to get from you first, you said no one meets anyone. So like if I'm saying to you and I'm in your team, I've had a good month of meetings this month, not in terms of how good the meetings were, but I've, I've, I feel like I've met a good amount of people this month. How, what would you, how many meetings you expect me to have had? I want to hear what—

oh, sorry, okay, so what my interpretation of good would be?

Yeah, like in terms of how many meetings, because you're, you're saying very confidently no one meets anyone. So like what do you think is Like, how often are you meeting people is what I want to know, and what do you think is—

so I would do 20 face-to-face meetings a month.

Okay, nice. That's what I wanted to get from you.

Yeah, 20.

Um, so 5 a week potentially.

Yeah. So like, I've been in London for the last 2 days, and like, after here I'm going to see a client for dinner. You know, I genuinely want to go and see him because he's a really nice guy anyway, if he's listening. Um, but you know, it's stuff like that. He's just— yeah, I've met the client for lunch earlier today. You have to make the most efficient use of your time. But I reckon the majority of recruiters would meet one a quarter.

And you're saying 20 face-to-face, not teams?

That's separate. Okay, absolutely not teams.

That doesn't count. Okay, so 20. And then do you think that's also plausible if either the Europe market, that region, yeah, commit to like going over like batching some meetings? Okay, sweet. So let's get into— okay, sweet, that's what I wanted to get from you. So if I— let's do, let's do client first, or someone with decision power, hiring manager, whatever, program manager, whatever the job title. What, yeah, so what, like, what are the things, the parameters around what would make it a good, a good client meeting? So you're saying some of the things there in terms of project intel, whatever, what are some of the key bits?

Yes, I think project intel is really important, but I think also rapport with that client. I'm in a position now whereby if I haven't got the right feel for the client in terms of relationship-wise, you know, we won't work together. So I think I don't look at them— a lot of recruiters take it like order takers, don't they, from managers and all the rest of it. I think do I want to work for that client and that, and that manager? Um, are terms agreed? Are commercials appropriate as well? Because people often get concerned about saying what their rates are and all that sort of stuff. So I think it's that, and then the, the commitment to be working exclusively together on pieces of work. I don't work with— I don't work on jobs that have got other agencies working on them.

Okay. And if I said, James, I've had 10 good quality contractor meetings this month, what does that mean for you?

Um, that would mean for me— it's a good question. You stumped me on that. What would that mean to me?

You're expecting me to get information, have information, or like say—

yeah, I think information, but also like again the rapport with the contractor. So, you know, how and how much follow-up are we having from those meetings, I suppose, would be the big one. So what's the market information, how the contractors seeing the market, are they getting approached a lot by you know, the sort of other recruiters out there, what sort of projects have been spoken about, etc. Um, yeah, I, I have a— I'm in a position now with the contractors that I have that I've known for so long, they send me other agencies' jobs.

You know, I hear that a lot when you get that, when you do really well.

Yeah, they literally WhatsApp me and go, this is the client, FYI, get cracking. Yeah, I don't want it. So, you know, that happens weekly.

Do you have your contracts in the WhatsApp group?

Yeah.

Talk to me about— so we put here weekly GP targets, understanding your weekly gross profit target and how many contracts that are given average weekly GP. I think you said like, it's so imp— we put in no numbers, right? We're talking a bit about it, we're talking about the client spread, but talk to me about this weekly GP thing. Like, what if I'm— if you would— if I was saying I'm a really good quality contract recruiter, what numbers would you expect me to know inside out?

I can answer that very quickly. So average weekly GP and how many contractors. Okay. And the amount of people that don't know that is quite astounding.

So how many contractors are my weekly GP?

Yeah, as in the average weekly GP.

The average weekly GP?

Yeah.

Per contractor?

Per contractor.

Got you. So tell us about this. So we put here, challenging the average, don't settle for the standard £100 per day margin.

Yep.

And that combines with we put it— you said, I know you said earlier, like, there's, there's— I don't know if there's a better word, but transparency with rates.

Yeah.

Let's just talk about this because I know this is quite key for you.

Yeah.

You've got strong beliefs around.

So, so the one thing is the perception of what you should charge. Um, so actually one of my, one of my team, um, at Infinite said to me— so I'm going to give him the kudos for it— he said to me, why are we charging £100 a day as an average margin on a contract? I was like, well, It's what we've always done. What S3 put in me was like, that's your average, £100 with your GP, you can't go below it. Um, if you get above, fine, but like, that's your standard. So he said like, why don't we just do £150 or £200? And I was like, I don't know, so let's just try it. So we've done— so our standard now in, in NxA is, is £150 to £200 a day as a margin. Now, I think the biggest thing that we did at Infinite and what I've always done is saying to the candidate, this is the budget that we have from the client, the total charge to the client. So if the client says to you, all I want to pay is £600 including your margin, I say to the contractor, this is exactly what you're going to be charged out at. How can we make everyone make money from it? So there's no ambiguity. I tell the client exactly what the contractor is being paid. So there's no ambiguity, or that's the biggest thing that contractors say to me is the recruiters won't tell them what the actual budget is.

So why do you think they are a bit fearful of doing that? Is it because they don't want to feel like they're taking all the money? They don't want to be like— because there must be a reason.

I think the reason would be is that they are embarrassed about the perceived amount of money that they're charging, so they don't really believe in their skill set. In terms of what they bring. I have full confidence in saying to a client about the percentage that we have because I know how much value I bring to them. So I think that, yeah, and also, you know, in recruitment, unfortunately, you know, you're trying to knock down a candidate, try and get as much margin as you can do. People don't go back to the client and push the client up and go, actually, they must have another 10% in your budget. Like, what's going on? They don't challenge the client enough. I mean, I've heard a horror story on rates with There's a guy, um, who got hammered down on his rate. Hammered, hammered, hammered down. And the contractor— yeah, by the recruiter— hammered down. He was a project manager, and, um, he then was the budget controller. So he then saw what his day rate was, and it was like a £200 margin. Mental. So he invited the recruiter on site to a meeting with him, resource meeting under that guy's, and he just showed him. He said, that's what I'm being charged at, isn't it? To the recruiter, and the recruiter was like, oh, um, yeah, it is. Says, oh, you've screwed me down on the rate so you can try and get that ridiculous rate. So not ideal. That's an awkward meeting.

Yeah, I guess so. What you're saying though, which I do— again, I guess it's these edges, right? And being memorable, standing out. It is like, just again, just treating it with real authenticity, honesty. But I think the bit that I take from there, that when you were talking about, is you've got a real belief on why your margin is, is, is the margin.

Yeah, well, I'll look at it is that they're getting 13 years of experience and expertise, so that comes at a cost.

But I do understand if I'm listening to this right now and the main reason why I'm trying to get the contractor down is because my manager wants me to. It's hard, isn't it? Because that is not always—

you want to hear a horror story? My own horror story. God, it's a horrible one. It's a horrible one. So I placed a candidate when I was at S3, and, um, we would, uh, extension point, and the contractor wanted more, uh, more money on his extension. And we were making about, say, £150 a day, so it was a big, big margin back then. So I got on the phone to the, uh, to the manager and, uh, so the contractor wants more money. Um, have you got any more money in your budget? And she said, what are you paying him? I hadn't told her. So say it was £600 a day we were charging her, the candidate was getting £450. And I went, she goes, well, just gonna ask him, James, you're not going to tell me. I went, uh, uh, £450. She goes, you're making £150 and you're asking me for £30 a day increase? So your credibility nuked. Nuked. That's, that's horrified me.

What happened after that?

She never spoke to me again.

Really?

Yeah, never spoke to me again. Yeah, never.

So what, but what, so you, why would you instruct her to do that?

Yes, my manager was listening into the call.

Oh, and they were like, James, right, let's try and get some more money. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?

But when you're, when you're starting out in recruitment or any sales job or any job, you're led by what your manager tells you to do as well. Um, so, you know, that was one, I think mistakes, uh, well, I will say there's no much, no, there's no such thing as mistakes in life, just lessons to be learned. That is one that will for sure haunt me for the rest of my day.

So if I'm listening right now and I've never been transparent, yeah, with my rates, might be a multiple, like all different reasons, how would I go about starting to do that? Like, it may sound obvious, but just interested to hear your take. Like, we've spoken, maybe you might have been convinced by hearing you talking about it. How can I go about start doing that? Do I start speaking to clients and making that part of my sort of the way that I talk to them, contractors. How would you start being transparent?

I think I would start by, when you get a role brief and you get the budget from the client, speak— when you're qualifying candidates for the role, doing exactly what I've said in terms of, this is exactly what you're being charged at to the client, £600. I ideally want to make £100, £150, whatever it is. That leaves you with X. Are you happy with that amount of money? Yes or no? No, I'm not. Okay, so as you know, I need to make some margin on it as well. Where can we fit into a happy medium and just see how it goes? And you'll— what you'll realize is that the candidate is then not thinking they're getting screwed over. You're being totally straight with them as well, nothing to hide, because why should there be— I don't, you know, why should there be a sort of, uh, fagazzi around day rates? I don't, I don't understand it. So, um, that's what I would do. I would trial it in that way, but it is all about delivery, obviously, as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also make sure the figure that you're telling them is accurate.

It's true, because if they then end up getting on site and figure—

find them out, yeah, yeah, you're nuked.

Uh, managing finishes, extension strategy. I was just talking about an extension story there, but obviously this is also key as well, isn't it, in terms of like, is this— is it one really, again, understanding, looking ahead? I've got contract— like, 5 of my contracts are due to finish in 3 months' time.

What am I doing about that?

I don't know. Tell us about this. Obviously this is also really important. Yeah, so Absolutely essential.

And regardless of if you're getting to £1 grand a week or £50 grand a week, it just means it's more complex, the obviously higher number of finishes. So what I mean, what I used to have on my desk sellotaped was every finisher within a 3-month rolling period, just it reminded me constantly in terms of who was finishing. But again, like how you position it with the client is if you do a 3-month contract, why would you do a 3-month contract? So extend that to 6 months anyway. 'Cause every contractor will start looking after 4 to 6 weeks. Once they're in that thing, they'll look for the next one.

Oh, what, once they've started?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. If you're on a 3-month contract, 6 weeks in, they're looking ahead for where they're gonna get the next one, right? So it's the process, the client of saying, if I haven't got an extension from you by the second month of a 3-month contract or 3 months into a 6-month or whatever, or you can't tell me the likelihood, I will be actively getting that contractor out to market. Really, really important because, you know, the amount of times I've heard contract recruiters didn't know that people were finishing is—

that's bad.

Mental, honestly. Generally. So it's like, and what are you doing with— if you know a contractor is officially finishing, which is absolutely fair and reasonable, they all do, what are you doing with that contractor? You should be sending that out to all of the competitors of that client, all the people that use that technology stack straight away, a month before it finishes.

Yeah, got it. So it's one, actually, like being really organized with knowing.

Yeah.

And then what are you doing that with that information? Yeah.

And also managing with the client as well, you know, saying, Mr. Client, you're going to extend. It's like, this is the fact. So from the start of a role brief, all this is after placement meeting, extension policy, etc. Like, you need to be, you know, straight with the client, have, um, Outlook invites in the diaries with the clients. But I said, these are the times I'm going to be checking in in terms extensions, etc. And then you can say what the likelihood is, but you need to educate the client as well. Fact.

Still got the sellotape on the desk, or we've got a different system?

I'm gonna desk at the moment. I've got an office, I've got a little WeWork, so I don't think they'd appreciate it.

Oh yeah, CRM vibes.

Well, CRM vibes, but I've also, you know, I've only got like 14 contractors, so it's more than manageable.

Yeah, fair.

And I get John to do it as well anyway. Yeah.

So what about like Peak Infinite though? Was it all through the CRM?

Uh, yeah, all through a spreadsheet. Yeah. So literally the Bullhorn generated finishes. But I mean, again, it's accountability on the contract recruiter. They should know what finishes, how much. So, you know, in a rolling monthly, you should know, as in, so say, what are we doing now in February? So you would know for the end of March what is your scheduled finishes, because if you're going to grow a contract book The easiest way to do it is to, is to understand the months that you need to sell because you know you're going to be losing, so just to sustain where you are, and then the months where you can grow as pure profit on in terms of increasing. Because the amount of times you get to 5K and then you get knackered on your finishes and then psychologically try and get back up to that is so, so difficult. Um, but you need to give yourself the best opportunity of doing it, and that's where again meeting the people, keep on saying, you'll understand what are the projects going on within that client. You get all that intel.

Yeah, I do think from sitting down with people, learning from people like you, I think a big part of it is really leveling up in terms of like being that resource partner. Yeah, because imagine like it's gonna be very difficult if the only conversations you're having is where it is just super transactional. It's just like, I need this contractor, have you got someone? How can— it's not very strategic, is it? You can't really do much planning around that. It's like, hopefully this person will call me, or hopefully this person will pick up the phone so I can sell him this contract. It's just hand to mouth, isn't it? It's not—

yeah, absolutely. And you know what, in recruitment you will get lucky with a few like that because you, you know, you do just get lucky on occasions. But it's where you want the real residual revenue. And it's like, the other thing that a lot of people don't do, um, is when the contractors finish and they go with another agency, going to meet them, the contractor. Yeah, because they're in with the client you're not in with. So why, again, you've got the trust with them and built up all the rapport and the relationship with them from before. Why wouldn't you go and meet that other agency's, um, contractor?

And you do that because, because I want to win that client, right?

And also to irritate the recruiters because they haven't met them, to be honest with you. So I'm doing it tomorrow.

Is that actually truthful? So like, how many— so let me ask you, let me ask you two. So firstly, over the last 12 months, yeah, How many contractors have you met that have gone, I haven't— I've never met another recruiter? How often? Like, what would you say percentage-wise, roughly?

90.

90?

Yeah.

Really? And then what about like client?

Uh, potentially higher.

Really?

Yeah, because they perceive a meeting as— recruiters perceive a meeting as Teams, right?

So you're saying face-to-face?

Absolutely categorical. I will not do a Teams unless it's absolutely like—

well, you're saying you wouldn't do a Teams in like one of your like like critical meetings, I would get on—

I would get in my car and drive that side.

You're obviously doing Teams calls, right? Obviously with people, surely, like video calls.

I do, but I don't like doing them. I just— I don't think there's any form of human interaction.

You're saying the 90% number is like when you meet people face to face, you're saying, by the way, like, have you ever met another recruiter before? Yeah, they're going 90% of the time, no, I haven't actually.

Yeah, so I'll give you a prime example of it. I was out in— I took a client out a few months ago, um, it was a big, big client of mine, and, um, and she used another agency, which is going against what I've said historically, actually, but she's using the range because it was in different sort of area, uh, and we were in the casino and all the rest of it. And I said, and I bear in mind I don't condone gambling or anything like that, clearly, um, although my surname is Gamble, but, um, uh, I said, just out of interest, I said, this is the agency that you use for this area, which is outside of my wheelhouse. Um, how many placements have you done? She had probably 15, 20 in the last year, but he's never come and met me.

Really?

Yeah. So now we talk about kids and, you know, all sorts of stuff. She's a personal friend because I made the effort to go and have a dinner. And, but hey, I love doing that anyway. But it's really meant that meaning— like, if you're getting paid on a permanent basis, like 10, 15 grand fee, and you can't go and meet a client. How ludicrous is that? In whatever transaction would you pay 10, 15 grand and not meet someone?

Yeah. What, like, what— I just want to hear your take on this. Like, what do you genuinely believe is the edge that it's given you? Like, I get— so obviously part of it is that perception of like, you know what, fair play, James, you really made an effort here, and I've like— others aren't like— I haven't. So you're instantly going to get an edge in that aspect because 90% of other people they've interacted with, paid, they've never met.

Yeah.

But besides that, what, what is it? What's the edge that you're getting? What is it? Do you know what I mean? What's the benefit?

Well, it's like, it's little things like you can then go to site and understand how your candidate's gonna have to get onto site, right? How you're gonna sign in, like what does site look like? Is it difficult to get to physically? I, you know, I love going, being toured around the warehouse so you can then authentically tell the candidates like, this is what it's like. It's got automation, it's got this in it. But also I would say that you can only build a truly long-lasting relationship by meeting people face to face. And then what that will mean is that you're the front, front of their mind when they do have a requirement. So I know I'll get, I'll get a text from a client on a Friday saying, can you jump on a quick call? I need resource for Monday, you know, because I've met them a couple of weeks ago or whatever. You're at the forefront, aren't you?

So it's all those little edges, isn't it? All those little bits that add up.

Absolutely. But you have to do all that consistently.

Yeah, fair. What I wanted to ask you before we wrap up, I was just interested to hear how you would answer this, was obviously we've heard a lot about how you approach things now, and, and the answer might be still very much the same, but just curious. Obviously you've done all of the hard yards on building these relationships, you've been committed to this niche for how many years. When you was on like the come up, like, I want to hear people how they were, because if people were just to copy what James is doing now it's not going to work, is it? Because like they haven't done all the other bits. So I think it's my job to make sure that we paint a picture of like, what was you doing when your book was 5K weekly GP and then it got to 10 to 15? So you might have covered it all today, but I was just curious to hear your take on like, what was James doing when he was building? Like, like, was you working long hours? What, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, so I mean, I was doing— I still do crazy again because I, I love it. But yeah, I would be in the office at 7 in the morning, leaving at 6, 7 o'clock on an evening. I think when you're building something, you need to understand it's not going to come within 6 months, 12 months. When you're first starting out, it's going to take you 18 months, 2 years for it to really start paying off. And I think the most important thing is when you start to see success, don't drop off. Increase the output. Yeah, absolutely, 100%. So do more consistently. Um, because I think so many people go, I've hit it now, rockstar, um, and they'll, you know, they'll see a big paycheck, they'll get themselves a Rolex and buy champagne, all the rest of it, but they take their eye off the ball in terms of always being there first and always doing the disciplines that you need to in order to be successful. I still do the same as what I did when I was at S3, when I was at £25 grand. I still work it that same day today. Yeah.

Oh, you shouldn't have to give me that then. Quickly, what do you mean by that?

As in, like, do you literally split up your day No, I'd love to be able to say that, you know, I get up at 4 and do yoga and all that sort of stuff.

So what do you mean when you say I still do what I did at S3? What does that mean then?

As in, um, outreach. So, so I've got my existing clients where I'm, you know, absolutely fine in there, no issues, see them all the time, etc. It's the, it's the relentlessness of trying to win new clients.

Okay, so the outputs you're on about, yeah.

So that is mapping out further clients within mainland Europe with the technology stacks and how many people can can I speak to around what they're looking for sort of within 2025. Um, yeah, the UK's— I'm not saying I've dominated the UK, but you know, I'm, I'm pretty well known in the UK. You know who I know, who's who in that. But then the other part now is what I'm looking at is what other areas could complement what the domestic is.

Work adjacent to it.

Exactly that, right? So what is it? Supply chain? Is it ERP? Like automation? Is it— where do I, where do I get something that complements what I do perfectly? Um, and again, just outreach and just speaking to people.

So what, like, give me some numbers then. What is a good day of, like, what, what's like typically aiming for output-wise then? Is it— how would you break it down? I think that's what people would be interested in and not what good looks like on that.

So I think, look, from my perspective, bear in mind, because my area is niche, it's not volume, volume, as some people might perceive. So I would say 20 new clients contacted a day.

Okay.

Is what I would say, with a quality with the brochure that we've got, with a quality CV as well, showing the benchmark in terms of what you're doing, but with a really tailored email. Some of the lazy emails that I've seen is just like horrific.

20 a day within your—

yeah, in my world. What about you doing—

and you also having a number around like how many clients you're adding in your like accounts that use your technology in your niche or not? Is that part of the 20?

That's part of the 20.

All right, okay, cool.

Yeah, it's part of 20. And it's how many meetings do I get within my existing clients with new managers How many meetings I get of existing clients with new managers?

What's the number? What's the goal around that?

So try and get 5 booked a week.

5 a week. 20 new— 12 net new, 20 net new, 5 existing.

Yeah. So who— so with the clients are going really well with, who, you know, they obviously refer me into a lot of their people who are hiring anyway, but like, who else is it that would hire a similar skill set? And can you make introduction?

Yeah, for me.

Um, and I think you box off them really stable. I love it.

So what if we sit down in 6-12 months, NX Italian, what we're saying, what the, what the goals?

It's a good question. Yeah, in it, how long, 12 months?

Next 6-12 months, like where you're hoping, what's the big goals around first year in business? That's normally a solid milestone that people have, or some goals in terms of what, GP, whatever you want to share with me, like what are you doubling down on, what are you excited about, where, where do you hoping things are going to be next 6-12 months?

So I think it's a good question, that is. So I think, you know, getting— if I can get the contract book by the half-year point up to 10K with GP, so in the next 2 months or so, that's where I want to get, where I'd really like to get to. Have a— I can't say the figure, but the same amount of cash in the bank as well. So I know that forward salaries are covered for 12 months, etc. And I think having 3 to 4 staff is what I would say would be success for, for me.

Love it. James, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for your honesty. Yeah, really appreciate sitting down. I think just, yeah, always enjoy sitting down with people that suit— like, I can just tell how passionate you are. I'm not surprised that you've really built out this now going to be successful business, but the success you have had, I'm not surprised at all. So I really appreciate you joining me.

I appreciate the time as well. You're a very high-flying individual, aren't you, with your 41,000 followers on LinkedIn. So I appreciate your time as well, mate. Thanks for letting me tell the story.