How to Build a £50K A Week Contract Book From Zero: Lessons from Joseph Brogan

Funny story, my first deal I ever closed was with an automotive client, and I must have been walking around telling the whole floor about this deal. And my old director, on a Post-it note, the name of the client, he covered my desk and my chair with it. It's like my whole desk and chair was just plastered with this client. And then the day after, the deal dropped out.

So Joe Brogan is Senior Vice President for InterEx Miami. He has successfully climbed the ranks in 4 short years, but before this, he went 6 months without doing a single deal. He then went on another 6 months once he started with the Interact Group without doing another deal. Since then, he's become one of their all-time top performers in the company and just broke the £50K weekly GP mark. This is how he did it.

There's one thing being told, I know it will come eventually, it will come, it will come. But then when it doesn't come for so long, I think towards the end people probably started losing faith in me. And yeah, I think I started losing faith in my own ability as well.

Here is what you're going to learn in this week's episode: how to master solution calls and how to stand out amongst your competitors when delivering client meetings?

Yeah, I think I say solution call because I'm talking about getting onto a call and providing a solution rather than getting on the call just to talk about requirements.

How to break into large enterprise customers consistently? A clue: it's all in the follow-up.

Yeah, so covering all angles. Are you connecting with people on LinkedIn? Are you able to tailor your specs, your emails, your pitching, your cold pitching, all of those, those touch points with information to make you more reputable, to show that you're specifically targeting that business The power of equipping your team with a common sales methodology. Leading from the front is so key. Like, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to bill, but even if you're a non-billing manager, are you taking part in scheduled calls?

Like, the opportunities that come with moving your recruitment career to the States and why you should consider it if you ever get the chance.

Salaries are bigger, the margins we charge are bigger. Just in general, as a market, it's just— it's bigger. There's more opportunity for sure.

Let's get into this week's episode. After speaking to hundreds of top recruiters on the podcast, they all agree when it comes to KPIs that the job-to-fill ratio is the number one metric you should be measuring in 2024. Over the last few months, we've collaborated with 4 of our brilliant mentors on Hector and also people that have been on the podcast to create an all-in-one ebook on how you can improve your very own job-to-fill ratio. In this free ebook, we cover things like why it's such an important metric to measure, where recruiters commonly go wrong, and most of all, practical tips and strategies that you can use to improve your very own job-to-fill ratio. You can download the free ebook with the link below.

Joe, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Hishem. Nice to be here.

Obviously you're joining me from sunny Miami.

Exactly, yeah.

Where did you grow up?

Where'd I grow up? I grew up in, um, South London in Croydon, very affluent part, uh, in Croydon. It's really nice over there.

So did you ever think growing up in Croydon you'll be in Miami leading a team of salespeople? Interesting.

Um, I don't think I ever thought that. No, I don't think I knew until probably when I was actually doing it. Um, but yeah, I think I always thought I was going to do all right for myself. But yeah, that Miami definitely wasn't on the cards. Miami wasn't on the cards 2 and a half years ago, let alone when I was a kid. So yeah, definitely a surprise.

This is just what I love about a career in recruitment. Like, it can really take you to, you know, different places in the world, different opportunities. So I just, I just love that. Um, so we want to talk about this journey that you've been on with Interact because we were just chatting. You listened to the first episode I did with Jamie you actually worked in that sort of office when I came in and did an interview. There's like, yeah, 8, 12 people. So you've really been, you know, on this journey where, you know, you're now in multiple parts of the world, massively scaled. So I'm really interested to sort of get Joe's perspective on like what that's been like for you being someone that's progressed their career in that environment as well as, you know, you've got— you've built a really great track record So we're also going to unpack, you know, how have you built your contract book, how you've gone about that, because we can probably start here, but you know, you spent a good amount of time not doing any deals, mate.

Yeah, that's very true. Don't remind me. But yeah, there was a period that wasn't, yeah, it wasn't as busy, we'll call it, as I'd say we have been the last few years, definitely.

It's like, obviously started Chapman Black, first 18 months you said you started in a sort of an internal role, then went delivery. But you went, what, over a year without doing a deal?

Yeah. So when I started there, I started in TA. So Chapman Black had this model where any new starter they hired had to be a TA first. And then once you filled your seat, you moved into sales. Interesting model. I don't think a lot of businesses have done that since, but I was actually hired as a TA. There was two of us that were hired that I think looking back now, we were definitely sales-type hires, but that worked. And I worked as a TA for probably a year, like the first year of my career. And then I repeatedly had asked to like be pushed into sales and opportunity came up. And then I was a DC for probably 6 months without doing a deal. Yeah, I did my— funny story, my first deal I ever closed was with an automotive client and I closed it and we thought I was telling everyone in the office about it. Like I must have been walking around telling the whole floor about this deal. And my old director Max put on a Post-it note the name of the client. He covered my desk and my chair with it. It's like my whole desk and chair was just plastered with this client. And then the day after, the deal dropped out. So I did, I did actually fully go 6 months, no deal. And yeah, that was, it was not a good time.

So you had to pull off all the Post-it notes?

Yeah, I had to pull off the Post-it notes. Yeah. And then when everyone was asking me about the Post-it notes, I was like, yeah, it was a deal I done. I did do it, but he's now dropped out. I'll never forget that.

Oh, that is— that, that is what an introduction to how challenging recruitment can be.

Definitely, yeah.

So why, why, why didn't you quit at that point then? Why didn't you sort of fall into the category of like, recruitment is not for me, I wasn't able to get success here, I did it for— you know, you would have been a young guy then, so like, why, why did you— what made you carry on?

You know, to be honest, I think I was lucky I had good people around me, and I think people always backed me. But then it did come to a point, definitely around the end of that period, where you start to doubt yourself. Like, there's one thing being told, 'I know it will come eventually, it will come, it will come,' but then when it doesn't come for so long, I think towards the end people probably started losing faith in me. And, and yeah, I think I started losing faith in my own ability as well because Yeah, it's been a long time, right, to not do a placement. So yeah, and there was a person who I was doing TA with and we both moved into like DC roles at the same, a few deals, like a fair go before I did. And yeah, like that was, I was getting wound up about it on the floor and I remember it bothering me, like proper bothering me. I think I was starting to lose faith maybe towards the end, but a lot of that come down to just people telling me that and yeah, sticking it up.

So when you interviewed at InterX, how did you, how did you sell it then? Like, you, you're like, yeah, I did this deal once, it was a good deal, but then it dropped out.

Like, no, what did you, what did you lead into?

Because you didn't have a track, you didn't have a track record to say, yeah, Chapman Black didn't work out.

Yeah, no, not at all. I think, um, like, to be fair to Jamie, he like he interviewed me and he took it on its merits, like he disregarded any— and like I was a sales consultant that hadn't been in sales. Like, uh, Interex, we didn't have that resourcer into sales route. It was out and out, you got hired as a sales consultant from day one. So I don't think he actually put much value on the fact that I hadn't built as a DC because that wasn't what he was hiring me to do. Like, he wasn't hiring me to come in and be a DC, he was hiring me to come in and be a sales consultant and Obviously Jamie had, even at that time, had a reputation for being like a very big biller and someone who could train big billers. And yeah, I think I had a good interview with him. And we— Inter— uh, Chapman Black folded on the Wednesday, I interviewed on the Thursday, and Interex were doing their end-of-year awards from the year prior on the Friday, and Jamie invited me to the end of year awards. So before I'd even started work The day after I interviewed, I went to their end of year awards, met everyone, and then I started on the Monday. So yeah, no rest for the wicked, they say, but I didn't have a break between that last job and the new one.

And then complete different story. So, you know, definitely correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I wrote down when we prepped for this was first year you did £285K in sales and like you had a record in terms of like, what was it? How?

Best first 12 months. Yeah, best first 12 months at the time.

That's good that it's been beaten. Yeah, it has been beaten. Yeah. Second year, $450K. Third year, $650K. Fourth year, $1.3 mil.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Last year I invoiced like $1.6 million, about £1.3 million.

And then right now, again, correct me if any of this is wrong, but you do weekly GP, so your weekly GP right now is just under $50K USD.

Yeah, I've done 3 deals this week. So £51,500 from 11th of March. So I'm set to invoice it this year. I'll bill over £2 million this year.

And then what, let's just give the final bit of context here because I think people are always interested in like the makeup of this book that you've built. Just really quickly. So we're talking about the endpoint here. We're going to talk about how Joe got to this point. But how many— so how many contractors have you got out that equates to that? And like, how many— what's the client spread look like? People always interested in that.

Um, so at the minute it's 51 runners across 5 or 6 clients, and I've got one primary client that's probably responsible for, I'd say, 70-75% of my book at the minute. Um, but wasn't always like that. But yeah, definitely as it's picked up over the last year and a half and gotten to these big, big numbers Yes, I've got a very big enterprise relationship that I guess we'll touch on at some point on this, but yeah, 51 contractors, 6 or so different clients with one main account and then like ones and twos at a few other places.

Cool, appreciate that. So let's just, because of this initial journey, I really like the way that you said that. I think that's completely true, right? In terms of Jamie was hiring you as a sales consultant, that was the model. So actually, you know, does he have the energy, does he have the mindset, does he have these other things, which I'm sure he was looking at. Like, how— but like you said, you were starting to doubt yourself. So there'll be a lot of people listening to this that might have found themselves in that situation, right? They start to doubt themselves, they're being told, keep doing the things that you're doing, Joe, it'll pay off. What was the mindset going into that first year? Like, what was you going to do differently? Like, how did you approach that first year at Interact? Because I'm sure you really had a point to prove to the maybe people that you used to work with, but mainly to yourself? No, I can make this work. So like, how— what was the mentality going into that first year, and how did you approach it?

Yeah, I think it was that proving yourself piece. Like, there was a— ended up getting set up off the back of Chapman Black folding, and they hired a couple of people that from that old business, and no one asked me. No one, no one reached out to me. And like, I was quite close with a few of them boys, but And when that happened, no one reached out to me. And I think part of it was that, like wanting to prove myself on that front, billions-wise. Second piece was like Jamie gave me a massive opportunity and I bought into him, like from my interview and wanting to like demonstrate my capability within InterX, also wanting to prove myself, but also for me, obviously, things I wanted to hit personally. Yeah, and so it was a mixture of those three, I would say, probably. But yeah, it was definitely a fresh start for me. I've always loved change and like fresh starts, like my whole career, whether it's moving desk, new headset, new screen, like just anything that will be fresh or new, I like. And that was definitely a big opportunity for a fresh start, start from zero, and the opportunity to prove myself, like you say.

Yeah, that must have been A real kick in the bollocks, mate, not being asked.

Yeah, well, listen, I think if we look at some of the numbers, there's someone taking a kick in the balls and it ain't me. But yeah, that was, that was definitely a put a fire under me, I'd say, 100%.

So why don't we get a bit tactical then? Like, so I know there's been a bit of a journey with like US, then Europe. So again, help me out here, but I've got written down here, so from the start you approached, you was doing the US market, right?

Yeah, yeah, from the first couple of weeks I was doing Benelux, like Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, and then Jamie wanted to do the US and he put the question to the floor almost, like who would be willing to do it, because naturally the hours aren't exactly for everyone, and there was 3 of us that said we'd do it, so it was me and 2 other consultants, and then from probably my third or fourth week we were doing the US. We were doing like 11 AM starts, working till I think it was 11 AM till 9:30 PM was like the contracted hours, but they didn't actually look like that probably for the first, the first year or so.

Um, but yeah, so did that, and then basically there was a period, but, and then he was unsure if he was going to end up in the US, which is like a big reward for doing those you know, working, uh, that way.

Yeah.

And then you went back to Europe, and then when did you then get back onto the US?

Got back onto the US probably like end of '22. Like, if we moved here end of '21, we moved here June '22. Yes, at end of '21 I got back onto, onto US for the, the 6 or up until when we moved to Miami, um, yeah, I was back on US.

Okay, so from 2021 you've been dedicated to the US, and then the goal was, um, as Jamie mentioned, like, we're gonna get you over to the US.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

And then how long have you been in Miami now?

A year and— well, coming up on 2 years. It'll be 2 years in June, and it's flown by, like, scarily flown by, but it'll be 2 years in June.

Love that. So why don't we break this down a bit? There's— I'm sure— I don't know if you've spoken to any of your peers about, uh, who, who work for other companies in recruitment, but I'm sure you've picked up on that there's been more and more people look at the US as, you know, somewhere that they can build their success. So the way that I've been describing to people, you can tell me the way that you would maybe describe it to people having done the Europe market and then US, etc., is that firstly, I feel like this is picking up for some of the people I've spoken to recently, but to really grasp the opportunity in the US, there's states in the US that have the same GDP as the entire country of the UK, for a start, and I'm obviously comparing it. So in terms of opportunity, the amount of clients and new business, etc., that you can acquire as a recruiter, it's probably going to be not as competitive if you're maybe working the UK, Europe markets. And then the other thing is then, you know, you're— you may work just as hard, you have to deliver a great service, do all those things, but the reward can be 30, 40, 50% more in terms of like revenue. How would you frame it? That's sort of normally how I've said it to people.

Exactly the same. Yeah, exactly the same. Like everything's bigger projects are bigger, the, yeah, the market, like just everything, the salaries are bigger, the margins we charge are bigger, just in general as a market, it's just, it's bigger, there's more opportunity for sure. And I think one thing as well, I always frame to consultants, it definitely takes longer to crack a client in the US, I would say. I feel like in Europe, you can do quick turnaround deals and you can pick up the phone and do a contract deal within a few days and it happens in the US, but The US is definitely a relationships game and it's definitely a building up relationships over time, particularly with some of these big customers. But yeah, opportunity is huge. People, everyone knows it. That's why they do it. But yeah, massive opportunity.

Yeah, so this isn't about— because sometimes I think people can feel like, oh, like you're saying it's easier. It isn't about that. It's just like the rewards are much higher. Like, you don't have to work as hard, you just have to do what you need to do, but the rewards can be a lot higher in terms of what we're talking about numbers and revenue-wise.

Yeah, 100%. It took me— I started the US market in February, August. So, even when I started InterX, I didn't raise this to you the other day, I started InterX, took me 6 months to do my first deal in sales after starting InterX, and then I did nearly $300K in Q4 of that year. So, yeah, it was— it wasn't a quick pickup and for the 3 of us that started the market, it was the same for all of us. A lot of us weren't doing deals until the back end of that year, but when they came, they came and they came in handfuls. I think that was what we were all looking towards and when it finally started kicking on, it was great to see.

So you said you didn't do a deal from Feb to August?

Yeah, Feb to August. I've done my first ever deal on recruitment on the 20, um, Louis Berman at EPAM Systems. Don't know if he's watching this, but yeah, he was the man. And that was the first deal I ever did.

And then did, did Jamie put loads of Post-it notes on that, or we didn't, we didn't want to, uh, we avoided the repeat of the Post-it notes.

Um, but yeah, I remember when, yeah, there was, there's some cool stories around that deal. But yeah, we at the time, obviously InterX had just set up that, that group doing the US, and we had a US bank account, but I don't know if Jamie had done like banking or whatever, but I was checking, like after 4 weeks went by, I was going to the cashpoint to check if we'd been paid into the business account yet. And then obviously the day it come in, I was like absolutely beaming. Obviously not that it was mine, but that obviously shows Jamie trusted me a long time ago to be sat at the ATM looking at that. But yeah, so there's some cool stories around that deal. Yeah, that was, that was also that year. And yeah, no Post-it notes, no Post-it notes to jinx that one.

So let me ask you this then, and I'm sure this is something that you've had to help other people with. February to August, that's a solid amount of time. Like, what, with hindsight now, and you know, you've now continued to build a track record in the US, you've been doing it for a solid amount of time. If I'm listening to this right now, I'm a contract recruiter, this might even apply to being a permanent recruiter as well, but you know, you set yourself a goal, you're building a market, could be US, whatever. What are like the lagging indicators that you're keeping a close eye on that's going to make you feel like, right, I'm doing the right things, it's going to pay off? Like, what were those things that made you feel like, no, you know, we've had some good meetings or we've had, you know, some close deals that we've got there? I don't know, what are the like lagging indicators of like then it really going well, do you know what I mean? Because I'm sure you would have had to feel like there's some momentum building or some things that you are doing well where if we keep doing it, it will pay off.

Yeah, it's a good question. I think back then it probably would have come down to like having jobs on. Like, I remember the first few jobs that we won did not close, and I remember that for— that happened for a while. Like, we were winning jobs for— started winning jobs with bigger, like, more enterprise customers. And I think at that point we were really Like, it was a lot of firsts. There were a lot of firsts happening. And like, we were the first to be doing a lot of things. And I remember having jobs on with big customers, having interviews happen, and then come around to offer, and the onboarding process was going to take 2 months, and we were missing out on things. But I think mainly back then it was productive meetings. Like, were we having scheduled calls, or we were having good conversations whereby there were needs, or there were going to be needs, or potential needs? But bear in mind that that first year doing the US, that was during COVID I was working remotely in my dad's barbershop. That whole year. So, like, that was— I was working remotely from my dad's barber shop in a barber chair. So, like, that was obviously not the ideal setup, but I think back then it was, were you, like, winning jobs in general, like, were jobs getting produced, or were you having conversations around requirements, was a thing for us. And we started seeing traction like that. And, yeah, there were definitely some lessons we learned that first 4 or 5 months, and once the focus shifted, that was when we started winning jobs and then the revenue came shortly after.

So really focusing on productive meetings, jobs on, even if some of them don't quite convert, just that's like a good indicator that—

yeah, are you qualifying opportunity? Are you able to sell? It's like a big thing that we were looking at.

And then sometimes I feel like people can get a bit caught up on this or unsure, like obviously you didn't have a track record. So like, what did you leverage? You know what I mean? Why would I listen to Joe? What was you leveraging to say like, look, I'm someone that can deliver this for you. Did you, you know, was you at the same time really trying to make sure that you had a solid network of contractors that you'd been building over time? Like, what was you leveraging in these early meetings when you can't go, we did this for this US client like you, which is why you should trust us give this opportunity?

Yeah, I think there was a few things. Um, like, first of all, when I say to all the new sites that if you can't sell yourself, you always sell the business, like sell on the brand. We had big partnerships in Europe and we had been a successful partner to big engagements for brands that would be recognized globally. So it was name-dropping clients in Europe that we'd worked with to, to add, yes, to make, make ourselves more reputable. Um, and then also alongside that, it was marketing candidates and using the candidates as your in. I think a lot of people overlook the value in that. Look, at the end of the day, it's our products, and you can sound as good as you want to sound on the phone, but clients are buying candidates off of us. So I think if, like you say, you've not got that track record to necessarily sell yourself, it's got to come down to leaning on your business's brand, leaning on relationships that you have as a business, and then also leaning into your candidates. If you're working with someone who is the best at what they do, and if you sound passionate about that person, then that's going to be what gets you by, you know, over anything else, in my opinion.

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So you spoke about this quite a bit with a lot of passion when we prepared for this, around like pitching, selling effectively, and how, you know, if, if I was to walk onto your Miami sales floor right now, you're gonna hear people pitch in like a similar way, or, you know, have a core message that people are delivering. Um, Why do you think that's so important?

Yeah, it's huge, right? Like, you've got brand, like, how market, like, everyone pitching in a slick and effective way, how we're representing ourselves to customers. I do a lot of QA calls with customers, so if we are making placements or we're partnering up with a business, particularly a new, a new client, as a director, I'll step in 4 or 5 weeks after the contract has started and get an overview of how we've handled the engagement and it's consistent across the board that clients will say things like, yeah, consultant was very passionate from the offset, like managed the process effectively, was really big on value and impact. We've got a lot of sort of consistent messages throughout our pitch. And that's not to say everyone sounds robotic, but you would notice common themes throughout the messaging that we're having on our calls. And I think as you scale a sales floor, it's so, so key. When you get to principal level, there may be slight differentiators in how you come across on the phone or how you deliver things, but Yeah, generally, to scale a sales floor, I think it's key that people are following a general message, a general outline on how they're pitching. My whole floor, like I said, would pitch you the same if you pulled anyone in here now.

It's interesting, right? Because I think I do really feel like this is overlooked because if I was to walk into bank and walk into a random recruitment agency. There'd be plenty around there.

Yeah.

And I walked onto a sales floor and I lined 10 people up and I said, guys, girls, talk me through your 2-3 USPs. Like, why would a customer partner with you and why should they partner with you over others? How many people are going to execute that?

Yes, it's not a big number, but that's that. I think that's the difficulty. And I think that A lot of consultants are left to their own devices, and that's something that gets in the way of development. And yeah, I mean, we'll come on to this in a bit in terms of like Interex in particular and how we work and where the bar is at. But yeah, pitching is so key. If you can't sell, you're not going to build big numbers. That's it at the end of the day, because as much as we are adding a lot of value to these customers, when you pick up the phone to someone, they don't trust you, they don't believe in that. It's about are you able to create enough of an opportunity for yourself to demonstrate the value and the impact you're going to have with that business, and then from there it's plain sailing. But if you can't open, then yeah, you're putting a cap on what you'll do as a consultant, definitely.

What's a QA call?

Like quality assurance, quality assurance. So, sound of how we've handled an engagement, clients buy into it. Again, it's another opportunity to understand what else might be ongoing within the business. I think that, yeah, particularly early on in partnerships, clients can be quite naive to how you can support them or what you can do. I think because obviously staffing or resourcing is such a small percentage of their role, there's so many times you'd be surprised where a small nudge to a client on the phone or a suggestion will open up a whole other area of the business that they wouldn't have even thought to bring up to you. So yeah, QA calls are a big thing that that we do. And again, it's just about improving your service. Like, what could we have done over the last 4 weeks that maybe didn't hit expectation? Or if we could have streamlined any part of our interaction, what would that have looked like to you? So yeah, I think they're definitely a valuable thing to be doing.

Yeah, I think, I think that's really, I think that's really smart. So that's something that normally if you, you started to work with a new customer 3, 4 weeks into that contractor being onboarded, you'll make sure that you've got time with the hiring manager, the decision makers there, and going, right, talk us through how we did the process. Do you think it could have been improved? How's the contractor getting on? How's the project looking, etc.? All those things on that call.

Yeah, 100%. 100%. So key. Like, if you're that or some form of that, you're missing out massively. And it's about the care piece as well. I think one thing that recruitment has been going towards, and it's good that it has been, is maintaining these strategic partnerships. And to set yourself apart from other businesses, you have to be operating as a partner. And that is like one example of dozens of things that you can do to present yourself in that way. And when you look at growing enterprise-level accounts and really selling enterprise solutions, that's what businesses are looking for. That, that body shop and recruitment is dead, it's dying, and businesses expect a particular level of service to partner up with you, and it's expected. Now, we get paid a lot of money to find these people resources. I say to people on the floor all the time, oh, like, this is a more difficult search. Of course it's difficult, like, they're paying us X amount of money, it's not going to be easy, is it? So I think delivering that level of the only way to grow big relationships and to justify your, your role in a business's Businesses' staff and businesses' projects are so key.

So before we move on, I wanted to— because I wrote this down and we're talking about selling, having a compelling pitch, QA calls.

You're not gonna ask me to pitch you, are you? You're not gonna ask me to pitch you, are you? Not right now.

Maybe. I wanted to— I wanted to— no, I wanted to— I don't know, you tell me what this is, but you were telling me about solution calls, so you— I wanted you to talk me through what a great solution call sounded like, and I wanted to understand, you know, you're talking about solution calls, impact, partnerships, these things. So I wanted to find out and understand when Joe used to do these solution calls. Still doing them now. Yeah, what I wanted to find out was when you used to do them, when maybe you weren't getting as good conversion, good result, you wasn't as impactful with them compared to now. So like, firstly, what is a solution call? Where does this fit into the sales process? Is this like a new client meeting? Is it what? What are these?

A new client meeting, new client meeting, BD call, schedule call. Obviously people will call things different, but yeah, I think I say solution call because I'm talking about getting onto a call and providing a solution rather than getting on the call just to talk about requirements. And when you look at what we do as like a staffing and a project partner, 80% of what we do, 90% of what we do is that type of work. So that's, yeah, that's when I say solution call, that's what I mean.

And then before, just, just to make sure everyone understands, before the solution call, what normally happens? Did you have like an initial meeting and go, look, I think from what you've shared with me today, I think it'd be a really good idea to have a solution call or have this meeting where we can go from—

No, this would be on the initial call, initial meeting. Yeah, this would be on the initial meeting. Yeah, initial meeting. Yeah. I don't like big long sales processes. It's like we If you can get some question effectively, you can get something wrapped up on the first call. We're not a business that have like a 3-step scheduled call process to selling. Yeah, that would be done all on the initial call. Yeah, all on the initial call.

All right, so let's just talk about it. So how long are these calls normally? How long are these meetings?

30 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes. I think the key thing as well, and one of your questions will be around how can you fit it into that amount of time? The key thing is going into those calls with information. As a contract recruiter, it is so, so key that you know everything about the project you're going at. Like, as a contract recruiter, you should understand the pains in a program and where the partner might be falling short, or, you know, what areas in the program are lapsed before you get on the phone. So key. Like, you should go into a call as a contract recruiter understanding program, what SIs are part of the program, what pains there might be, where there might be shortcomings, what stage of the project are they at. You understand all of that before you get on the phone. One, that's how you convert more of your prospect calls because clients buy into people who know, who know those things. You sound like an expert. Two, when you get onto the call, you, you can do discovery. Discovery is key. Questioning is key, but you've got the top line subjects and you can get straight into going underneath those on the call rather than going, okay, what are you driving at the moment? How are you driving it? What partners are you working with? How are they getting on? If you know 60% of that before you get on a call, and you're not going to know everything, then it sets you up to have more of a detailed conversation beyond that on the first call. And yeah, your conversations are going to go much better.

And I'm assuming you're getting this information from your contractors, your network, candidates.

Yeah, candidates. But any contract recruiter will tell you candidates are the basis of any strong desk. Any, any type of business development has to have started there. I think even for our floor, like, one thing we drove recently was anyone who had a scheduled call or a solutions call, whatever we're calling it that week, was to speak to contractors within that project ahead of the call to identify information prior to getting on the call. Because yeah, the conversation is so much more effective and you can really pitch much more of a specific solution if you've uncovered that beforehand.

And then Joe, talk me through how, like, because I think this is really interesting, this is just really smart. We're getting into the detail here of like how you approach these things like How do you deliver that in a sort of unknow-it-all way? Do you know what I mean? Because I'm sure you're not going in there going like, I know this about this, I know this about this. You know, you're going to deliver it in a tonality where you're like, yeah, so look, how, you know, I might know this, or am I right here, am I along the right track here, do you know what I mean? You might play it sort of the tonality is like a bit unsure, but you're sort of sure, do you know what I mean? Like, how, of course, how do you deliver this in an effective way that makes them be like, right, this guy knows his stuff, he's credible.

It's leading questions, like asking leading questions. And I think as well, like, there are a lot of things that are consistent in our market with partners and how they deliver. And I think being able to frame certain phrases, like there's certain things that I say on calls where you say, look, partners have a reputation for overpromising, overcharging, and underdelivering. 'Hearing the same things in the market from X and X,' or, you know, 'Over the last 2 years, the most common pain that I've heard when speaking to people like yourself is X.' So I think that's usually the best way to set it off, is those little probing comments that then unlock additional topics. But that's usually how you would go about it. And then also being transparent, say, 'Look, ahead of our conversation, I wanted to speak to some candidates in my network who I know are partnered on the program or may have I may have worked in the program to see if I could identify any areas that we may be able to support. You know, is this the case? Or have you currently identified a solution to address this? For example, there are different ways you can go about it, but the little probing comments and questions that then unlock the topics is the best way I've seen.

And what's like the opposite of this, Joe? What's like How can I deliver really bad solution calls? Like what does like really not good looks like, which is going to result in not very good conversion, maybe 1s and 2s, not actual like, you know, full hiring solution opportunities, projects. Like what's the opposite of what we're talking about here?

Feature dumping for one, like feature dumping. You know what I mean when I say that? That's a—

everyone knows what you mean.

Feature dumping. So getting on calls and going, we do this, we do that, we and you don't know if A, B, or C are even going to be relevant to the client. So feature dumping, over-talking as well is a huge thing. I've worked with some very good salespeople over the years at different businesses, and the best salespeople I've ever worked with speak the least on their calls. So being someone who's not speaking too much on conversations, yeah, but mainly like the thing I hate to hear, and this is where calls don't go well, is when You just oversell without any reason behind your sell. So people just pitching in, oh, we can do this, we've got global coverage, or we've got offices in X, Y, and Z, or we've got— those things aren't value adds to that individual specifically unless you know that they are. Yeah, we shouldn't be dropping features in unless we know that they're benefiting the person we're speaking to.

Yeah, you're making it all about you and not them.

Yeah, 100%, and clients don't want to hear it. And also, clients get pitched like that all the time. But one thing our clients have bought into recently on scheduled calls, I join the call and say, look, I'm not going to put a deck, I'm sure you don't want to see that classic logo slide. And they all start laughing because clients are used to seeing this stuff from other people. They don't want to sit and listen to another person, how good they are and what capabilities you have and name dropping a load of logos. How can we specifically impact your program based on information we've understood and based on what you tell me on this call today? And I can't add value to everyone, but let's work out if we can support what you're driving at the moment. It's just different ways of approaching conversations and definitely better ways.

Yeah, I love it. Solution calls speak to, I think, really smart things there. Like if you've got one coming up with a prospect, can you speak to any of the contractors that you know that were involved in that project or currently involved in that project? So then you can use that information information. Like you said, I really like the way that you framed it, like leading questions. So like, normally so-and-so that I speak to have issues like this, is that something that you're experiencing? Um, and then like you said, like if you ask smart questions, you can also do the discovery, but then you can then actually—

if you—

when you do get to the sale, you're actually selling a solution that should make them feel like it's going to solve issues for them, for their project, um, rather than just feature dumping.

Yeah, 100%.

So from your perspective then, what, what has this journey been like for someone to join The Office where there's 8, 12 people? You're now in Miami, obviously. Now when you go to these awards, there's probably a lot more people there. Yeah, like, what, um, what, what, like, from, from your seat, like, how do you feel about it? Like, what, what, what have you learned about it? How, yeah, like, just how do you feel about because, you know, often you'll hear, like, you'll hear people say, like, Joe, we're going to go on this journey, we're going to, you know, go big this year, etc. And sometimes it doesn't happen. Like, you've been on this journey with Jamie, with InterX. What's it been like from where you stood?

Yeah, it's been great. It's been great, to be honest. It's been good. I think there's a few things that I put it down to. Like, one is that obviously Jamie's an individual. Just anything that he's ever said was going to happen happened. And I think that's just he wouldn't ever let us not hit a milestone or hit a number. I remember when we said we were moving to Miami, it was quite short notice for a move to Miami for a team of 4. And a lot of people would have said, oh, you're not going to do that, or it doesn't seem realistic, it will get pushed back. And yeah, we, we done it. And I just— this unwavering trust in what he says in terms of what's going to happen, because yeah, as a team we make it happen. And that consistency of hitting things that you set out to do, it piles onto itself. I can't remember what word I'm thinking, trying to think of, but yeah, like it will, it adds up. And I think that's just something that we've consistently had. Yeah, it's been a great journey to be a part of, seeing new people come in, seeing new starters come in and hit big numbers, seeing people that were like trainee new starters that you knew were going to do well, and then they eventually, it starts happening, the deals start happening. It's been a good thing to say.

And Croydon to Miami, mate, talk to me about that. Like, what is it like? You've been in there for 2 years now. What, you know, what's a guy from Croydon doing in Miami? Like, what was that actually like? What was the transition like?

It's the best thing I ever did. Like, I recommend it to so many. Like, anyone I speak to, I would recommend it to. Like, any consultant, if you get an opportunity to go abroad— not Miami necessarily, obviously it's brilliant here, but in general moving abroad. I think with it, I, I was living at home before I came here and I moved out to live on my own. There was a lot of things that happened, like it means you have to—

mate, Mike's gone again.

Literally say that, uh, there we go.

Yeah, it's back now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, it's one, it's the best thing I ever did. I recommend it to anyone I speak to. Like, it pushes you on to achieve more, to do more. I couldn't directly link the numbers I've done now to moving here, but I could confidently say that if we didn't move out here, I don't think it would have been the same. Just in terms of the, yeah, it's just a serious thing to do, right? And to move away and sign a lease on an apartment and expectations in your head and you're in a new office with 4 people looking around at like an empty floor. You know, there was a lot of pressure and yeah, I recommend it to any, any consultant who has the opportunity to go abroad and build up a market. I think it's one of the best things you can do for personal development, for independence, for lots of different points. But yeah, I think it's an amazing thing to do.

And what about like integrating into Miami culture? What's that been like for you? Like what's You know, what's it been like to—

It's been interesting. There was definitely some learning curves, I think, differences in, like, just people and what they put emphasis on. And yeah, Miami's, like, huge around, like, work-life balance, which is a good thing for us. And I think part of our shift to valuing that a lot more over the last 2, 3 years has been from going to the States. Seeing the importance it has here and seeing that we can have people perform and produce big numbers with that still being an emphasis point for us. But yeah, there was definitely a learning curve around a few things when we first moved over here and what we wanted in a new hire and changing the mold of what we might have had previously and really being more open to what type of people could come in here and achieve. I think it's very, it can be quite hard to open your mind to things when you are sit in a certain way, or you've seen a certain type of person come in and achieve. But yeah, we've seen from coming out here that there are people from all types of backgrounds, all type of personalities, all types of experience that have come in and done big numbers as part of the model that we have. So yeah, there was definitely a few eye-openers coming out here, but yes, for the better of everyone in the business, for sure.

And then, because you mentioned this when we prepared for this, like, you've multiple early 20-year-olds, late teenagers doing 10K a week, more. Like, you know, talk me through, like, how do you feel like you've been able to unlock their potential? What, like, systems and processes have you equipped them with to get them up to those levels? Because these are people that are young, these are people that may not have, like, loads of experience, but you've been able to to get them up to these levels?

Yeah, I think it's a few things, like, like being consistent in your— I, I think the main thing with leading teams is, is ensuring that you maintain buy-in from those people. Like, the second your team don't buy into you, they stop listening to what you're asking. And you can check things as closely as you like, or you can review things, but if they're not gonna maintain the standards you expect when you're not in the office, then you've not had the impact on that person that you should have. So I think being consistent in your messaging, consistent in your expectations. I think the fact that obviously I'm young and I've built the numbers I've built means that people naturally, that helps me in terms of respect that I get from the floor. And then being involved as well, like leading from the front is so key, like leading from the front. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to bill, but even if you're a non-billing manager, are you taking part in scheduled calls? Do the sales consultants on your floor have a level of confidence in you that if you partake in a call with them, it's more likely to result in outcome. Yeah, there's a, there's a few different things, but I think the team have to back your abilities, um, being consistent in your behaviors, like being able to partake in calls and create outcome, create impact.

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Now, I do think that, I think that's a really interesting way that you framed it in terms of of how many people go into a non-billing position and then their peers feel like, if Joe's on this call, I have more chance of closing. I really like that sort of bit that you mentioned. Now I think that, that really demonstrates that extra value that you should be offering.

Yeah, 100%. So key, so key. Like, yeah, I could talk on that for days, but I guess— but yeah, I think that's massive as a leader, as a sales leader. 100%.

So let's talk about— obviously I told you about the, the conversation I had with, um, Asher and, and how he built his book over, over time. And I feel like what I'm definitely learning here— obviously you can just talk from your Interact experience, but I feel like the more contract recruiters that I meet and interview and they're doing like a million and a half, 2 million, oftentimes there will be big enterprise clients that make up that sort of structure of their desk. So I think just really curious, 'cause it seems like that's been important for you as well, right? You know, when we started this, you said you've got like 5, 6 like really key clients. Talk me through, 'cause I'm sure there's plenty of contract recruiters listening to this that should be hopefully aware of like, these are like, the 10 big net new logos. If I get in with these customers, like, my whole desk could change. Um, like, talk me through how, Joe, like, what's your methodology around breaking into enterprise clients? You know, we've always spoke— we've already spoken about it can take time, which I'm sure is part of the equation, but I'm sure this is something you're helping your team with now, and you're, you're a lot more intentional about because of your experience? Like, how— what's your methodology around breaking into enterprise clients and big logo clients?

I think there's several things, and I, I listened to that— the guy who works at Oscar, I listened to him. A couple of things that overlap, but like, one, making sure you're covering all bases. Like, are you busy on LinkedIn? Do you look like an expert on LinkedIn? Are you connecting with people and sending them tailored follow-ups? Naturally, BD— and like, you can't overlook the value of that. Are you on the phone to Are you calling them outside of core hours? Are you calling them before 8:30, during your lunch one day a week, and after 5:30 to catch them at times when they're not going to be in meetings? Are you consistent in your approach? Like, I think you done a post on it the other day on LinkedIn that it's a known fact that clients or success in sales comes at the 7th or 8th touchpoint, and yet 95% of people don't get there. Which is bonkers, you know. So, like, are you being consistent in your approach? Are you covering all angles in terms of tailored specs out, getting tailored products out, speaking to senior candidates within the project to see if you can get sponsored into the program, speaking to candidates to get information so that when you send an email, when you cold call and pitch, you can have it to the point where it's tailored to the point where it demands a reply? Yeah, so covering all angles. Are you connecting with people on LinkedIn? Are you sending tailored— senior candidates to understand information about the program? Are you able to tailor your specs, your emails, your pitching, your cold pitching, all of those touchpoints with information to make you more reputable, to show that you're specifically targeting that business? And then all of that has to be consistent. Is that happening weekly over the course of 3 months? I've got the enterprise account now who's probably responsible for 80% of my work, 85% of my work. Even 90 really, if I'm being honest, is coming from somewhere I did 2 deals with and then it took 18 months to do another deal. And then now I've got 40 runners there. So like, are you consistent enough that you will call a client every week for a year and back the fact that when they pick up it's going to be worth the effort? Or are you just going to call it a day? Too many consultants do one and done. It's like a deal with a client and then they don't expand it and That comes from providing a good service from the offset. Like, when you get the opportunity, are you so big on first impressions that they can't go anywhere else? You know, are you mapping out other contacts in the business and name-dropping people that have said you can go ahead and use them as a reference point? And then are you consistently going to go at that business? So many recruitment companies, and even the same with us, right, you've got a long list of clients you've placed with any one of those clients, a lot of, a lot of the businesses we work with, they could all be million-pound, £2 million accounts, and they sit there dormant with 2 or 3 deals against them. And yeah, I think it's a case of consistency against those, those businesses, and also having a, like, a structure in place where you know, okay, I'm going to touch all of these touch points within this week, and then I'm going to leave it for 2 weeks, and I'm going to do the same thing again. But I will do that over the course of a year regardless of outcome.

So did you— that example that you gave, this ended up being one of your biggest accounts. Like, did you know it might turn out like that?

I hoped it would, yeah. I'm not sure I knew. Like, I backed it would be a big account, but not become— but I show people on the floor this sometimes. I sent 65 different leaders there an email every other week for a year. Like, so like, like, yeah, like I was plastering myself everywhere. I, there was a lot of things that I did with that business and LinkedIn posts and yeah, just so much stuff that's quite laughable, some of it. But yeah, I was, I was very consistent in my approach. And I think another thing consultants get worried about, pestering clients, right? And I agree, you should never pester a client. These are mutual relationships. If you're delivering value and when you get on the phone you have something to talk about, you won't be perceived as pestering. When you're calling a client to say, oh, has anything changed? Like, of course they're going to think you're pestering them. But if you're ringing them because you've got a new solution or a new candidate's come available, or, you know, you have to speak to them about X and X, you're not pestering them. You know, you want to get in touch with them. And yeah, I've never had a client say I pestered them or I was on them too much, because if you've actually got something to talk about every time you pick up the phone, how could they ever say that to you? Yes, I think people need to be more like less worried about pestering clients and more concerned about what are you picking up the phone to discuss. And yeah, if the latter is in the right place, then you shouldn't be hearing complaints about the prior.

65 leaders, 2 emails a week for a year.

Yeah, yeah.

What was you saying in these emails, mate?

Oh, so many things. So many things. Every time I got a new piece of information, I just tailor the email, like send a new client touchpoint out, or it would probably be 5-week batches where I'd send one and I'd say, look, following up, wanted to see if you've reviewed the last email, followed up, want to see if you reviewed the last email. I just go through my inbox and do reply all and just like hammer through. Yeah, you should be doing that with multiple clients at one time. That's what our job is at the end of the day. I get specs off partners in the US now, like sending me candidates, offshore candidates and stuff, and they're consistent. I'll get a follow-up every week for 4 months, and I say to some of my team, principal consultants, I've got offshore partners who will email me every Friday for 3 months, and you're giving up your clients after 6 weeks. How can this person be more consistent than you when you're in this environment? So yeah, I think that's the key thing.

So I just want to make sure we cover two things before we finish. One, what's Joe's mindset to make sure that you protect your book? Like, as you know, I sat down with Ethan and he's had to go through that twice, I think. Um, so, you know, you were being honest with us, like 90% of your contractors are maybe in this one client. So what, what is Joe— how is Joe thinking about protecting his book? So the next time we jump on here, you're going, mate, this client. Um, so I want to make sure we cover that. But the other thing I just want to make sure I ask you is, okay, we're being persistent, I get that, but what were like the signs from your perspective that this could potentially turn into like a really big client? Like, what were some of the signs that you were, you know, you found yourself going, you know what, this information I'm feeling like that I just found out is making me feel like that this could be you know, a big partner for us? Like, what are some of the signs?

I think understanding everything about the program. Like, my market's data analytics, that's what I've always done, and I knew it was a huge project, and I knew that they were leveraging contractors heavily. I knew who the partners were. A lot of what we do, and this is what differentiates us from a lot of recruiting businesses, is that we sell against these— Accenture, IBM, Capgem— we're selling against them and we win the work. And I knew who the partner was, I knew the I knew where they were falling short. I was hearing about it, and it was just a matter of time before they—

well, you might, you might make it. Wait, just every time I speak it comes back. It's weird. Yeah, you're saying, so you're pitching against like—

yeah, pitching against big partners. And, and when you— I knew that the partner had 300 resources And I knew that X parts of that team weren't performing. So it was a case of waiting until the opportunity came up to deliver against it, and then making a good first impression. But knowing how much of a presence a partner had on the program, you know that they're being charged X amount per hour by that partner, then you know for every one resource you place there, you're saving X amount of cost. So once you put in someone good, it's just a matter of time before you start getting given more work. 'cause if they can get better quality for a lower cost, regardless of brand name, business size, anything else, they're gonna come back to you. So I think that's what it came down to.

So how do you think about protecting your book then, mate? What, like, surely you must be top of mind.

Good question. Yeah, there's a few things. First of all, I've got 40— probably 19 different hiring managers, and a lot of them don't even know each other. So it's not a case of—

Say that again, sorry.

I've got 40 contractors there across 19, 20 different— managers don't even know each other. So it's a case of networking globally, like not having— obviously if you get a big project with 25 knees, I'm not saying tell them no, but being conscious of having lots of people in one programme, good reputation within a business so you can win business in other pockets. Like operating with honesty and transparency as well. I see a lot of consultants trying in other businesses or just in general in Korea, try and take big margins. You know, like a consultant here goes to do their first deal and they want to charge a 40% margin. And that type of stuff isn't how you build long-lasting partnerships. And it might put a big deal up on the board for 6 months and you might look cool, but cost-effective rates, not overcharging, not ripping big margins for the sake of it. Are built on that. And, and yeah, and also making sure you're working with multiple leaders, multiple programs. Don't rely on one program. Like, as much as it may look like from a billing perspective that everything's within one account, or 80-90% of it's within one account, it's within 15 different projects within one account. So not sitting on one contact in the business. And it also means, I think, a lot of recruiters miss out on relationships because they might have a relationship with someone and that person leaves, and then the account goes dead. If you're working with 15 different hiring managers, 3 of them could not like you and you can still do 3 deals there a month. So yeah, it's just a case of maintaining relationships across the board.

Yeah, I think that's the key thing there. As you said, like, okay, on the face of it, one customer, number of contractors there, but like you said, they're all working for a number of different hiring managers, or they are. Okay, that's interesting. In terms of what I wanted to close this out then, I just want to try and make sure I understand this, because I feel like we, like, we help recruiters with, on like the training and development side, and one of the most common areas that they score themselves low in is like time management, productivity. So how does Joe, like, I'm just trying to picture, like, how do you maintain and keep on top of like 50+ contractors? Like, are these people that hear of you every week? Like, you got them in a WhatsApp group, you know what I mean? Like, what— how do you— how do you like structure it? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, how— how do you like structure this? Because I did permanent recruitment, so I'm just trying to visualize, you know, because you've got to be all over these, haven't you? You've got to like be getting information, like these things. Obviously, I guess it depends on are they in for a 12-month contract, 6 months, but even still, like, things can change in the project. Yeah. So how do you How do you keep on top? Like, how do you keep on top of that?

Um, well, we, we hired someone to help, so we've actually got a contractor care consultant that's catching up with people. Um, like a lot of me and Ethan's contractors, for example, because like between us we've got 150 runners, it would be impossible. So we've got someone that does that. And then also I, I do— I used to, when I was billing, I would catch up with them weekly, right? Because the amount of deals I've done from a candidate giving me a lead and giving me a candidate, like, because they'll find out about a lead and they've got a colleague that they'll recommend. I've done so many free deals like that where that comes about. So I think having those examples meant that I would always catch up with my contractors because I'd seen the actual, like, value come from it. Um, so yeah, catching up with them, making sure they're all right. I would do that weekly on a Friday afternoon usually. I'm actually telling a lie, Tuesday afternoon. Friday afternoon, Tuesday afternoon I would catch up with everyone, but now we've got a contractor care consultant, but I still catch up with people. So there are certain contractors I have that are maybe more senior in the projects, or I've got certain contractors that are just good for leads, and, and yeah, they'll get a more regular call off me than some of the other ones. I saw a video the other day where you were interviewing a lady who said about, like, she called a contractor and they were like, look, I'll call you if I need something.

Can I call you? I was gonna ask you.

Yeah, I've got a couple. I've got a couple of those that don't get calls off me. They probably know who they are. But yeah, by that, I think being someone who picks up the phone to their contractors is key. Any issue, you need to be reachable because, yeah, they're your livelihood. He's always been huge on that, like servicing your contractors. I remember, yeah, from when I first started working with him, it was massive. Timesheets had to be in on time and you had to catch up with your contractors because they're your eyes and ears in the project and, yeah, they're your livelihood. So it's a key part of your desk.

So where do we go from here then? How do you, how do you unlock the next level? Like, how do you— if that's something you're thinking about, because I'm sure at some point, at some point, I'm sure you might have found yourself going— because, you know, you said something which I thought was quite powerful, which, you know, whenever I've met someone that interacts, this is what personally I'm inspired about, is like, you know, you, you only think So I guess what I'm trying to say is the way that you phrased it is, you know, 500K billers probably won't get noticed in— yeah, right. So like, you know, you're going to be inspired around the people that may go, fucking hell, I thought this was possible, but that's possible. Do you know what I mean? So how are you feeling about this? Because you might have said, you might not have, at one point, like, imagine if I could get my book to 50K a week. Like, you might have said that in it, and now you're here. So it's like How do you feel about not getting complacent, getting the net, like, onto the next thing? Like, how do you think about that?

Well, I think there's still always people to beat. Like, Ethan's still— Ethan, you can sugarcoat it all you like, but yeah, even though I won Top Biller last year, like, Ethan still has had the most runners at one point. So yeah, still pushing on to hit those numbers. I think also now for me it's more so around about how many big billers can I create. And then doing it to maintain that leading from the front piece, like me putting deals up on the board, I know it gets the team going. The team likes seeing that. And yeah, being able to continue doing that pushes me on. And then also for myself, I've still got big goals I want to hit that are maybe less billings related and more— well, they are billings related, but more earnings related and certain numbers I want to earn.

So tell me about it. So you have like bigger goals for like yourself, the team?

Yeah, bigger goals to myself and the team and being able to create billers. Like, we've got someone here now, 600K biller this year, and in April of last year they were a golf caddy. So, like, being able to—

Wait, say that again, sorry.

He was a golf caddy, so he was carrying around people's golf bags in April. He'll invoice 600K this year. And yeah, like, I've got a senior consultant on my team who had a load of perm invoice come in last month and One of the boys came into the office on Saturday to drop something off and he was in here like wrapping up his weekly review with 4 shopping bags on the desk in front of him wearing some new sunglasses he'd bought. It's like hearing things like that, it's nice, you know, and I've got personal goals I want to hit outside of work, like things that work will facilitate if my billings carry on going up and then also being able to create more billers is a big thing for me.

So we sit down this time next year, what would have happened in Miami? What's going on? What would have happened in this? Because you're in charge, you're like the sales leader in the Miami office now, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So talk like, if I came to your office, you know, this time next year, what would have happened? What were the big goals for the Miami office?

Big goals, Miami office, definitely having everyone up and running. Weekly GP to be £12,000-13,000 a week. It's something I have in mind for our floor. Yeah, having more leaders come from the floor as well is something we're working on at the moment. Like, how can we develop people in here into people leaders that can carry on and add value into new starters that are coming in? And those are the key things. And obviously scaling, right? But scaling in the right way is something we've been big on recently and making sure that everyone we add is a value add to the floor. And yeah, but definitely maintaining a high average weekly GP, getting my book even higher, and, and having some other big billers in here. I want to see people on my team going on the global incentives, winning, winning awards at the end of the year. There are a couple of rising stars, I would say, that I want to see have big years this year. Um, so hopefully, yeah, you'll be asking someone on my team to do a podcast next year. That's, that's what I've got in mind.

Well, look, Joe, kudos to you. You know, come a long way from Croydon.

The Croydon podcast, name drop Croydon about 5 times.

I just rate it. I just think like, you know, like this is what I love about this industry, like where it can take you.

It's the best. It's brilliant.

But even the fact, like you said, you were smashing it out the US market in your dad's barbershop. Yeah, I mean, so like, yeah, I know, like, we've taken the time to take a look back because I'm sure you're always looking ahead. I want to do more, I can do better. But, you know, there's— you've come a long way from that period, and I'm sure there would have been moments in that time where you're like, I can't wait to actually be in the US, and, and this is what you're living and breathing now. So yeah, like, kudos to everything that you built so far. Really excited see where we are in another 12 months' time. But huge thanks for joining me.

Yeah, cheers, Hishem. It's been good stuff. Appreciate the time, mate. Thank you.