How To Build A Seven-Figure Business Development System with Laura Frazer

I think I've trained myself to be quite a methodical, process-driven individual. I'm creative by nature. I've got dyslexia, so I think differently anyway at the best of times.

Laura Fraser, the co-founder of Fraser Tremble. She started the business over 3 years ago in the heights of COVID with her husband from their kitchen dining room table. In 3 short years, she's built a business that's going to generate $5 million in revenue this year with a team of 5 consultants.

You know, I'm acutely aware as a managing director and still a billing consultant that I cannot be all things to all people.

This is what you're gonna learn in this week's episode. The power of having processes and systems.

When we're doing actual presentations, we've got a really condensed pitch deck that we talk them through. Of course, that could be bespoke depending on if we know the inner workings of what they're trying to pitch to us.

How and why you should obsess over customer experience.

And it's all about the facts and figures. Clients, they don't want the fluff. Just tell them exactly what the problem was, what your time to fill was, what the challenges were that you overcome.

How to win large hiring projects and consistently win exclusive agreements.

Look, I'm sure some of my junior team members will still tell you they're absolutely heart scared of picking up the phone or reaching out and doing BD. I think everybody has those nervousness, but it provides them with the confidence. There's a lot of information that they can use and it's readily available, you know, and then, and they know what it is.

A breakdown step by step of Laura's business development process. It's going to generate her $800K in billings this year.

The more natural it becomes, the more confident you become in saying it and believing it because it's true. You know, we're not telling anybody anything that's not tried, proved, and tested, plus so, so much more.

Let's get into this week's episode. Laura, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Joining me from Melbourne, 7 PM. So we are getting the, the squeezing out the last bit of energy and juice from Laura after having a busy day in, in recruitment, I'm sure.

Don't you worry, I can— I'm fine.

Um, so today we're gonna talk about, although it's your third full financial year, as you're telling me, in terms of how the Australian financial years work, but obviously on LinkedIn, coming up to like 4 years of being on this entrepreneurial journey.

Yeah.

And we're going to talk about how it's been. You started this business with your husband, which I always find interesting, um, started it, um, in the midst of COVID Like, I think, uh, there's a lot of stories out there like that. And you've been on a, a really interesting journey, and I really think the way that you have thought about approaching your recruitment business, the systems and processes that you've implemented. I think a lot of people are gonna learn from today. But just to give everyone listening some immediate context, the, uh, Fraser Tremble highlight reel. So if I get any of this wrong, obviously let me know. So today we're talking in Australian dollars.

Yes.

Um, but first, first full financial year, um, you ended the year doing $500K um, revenue. Second year, $2.8 million with, um, a million GP margin, and that was around 80% perm, 20% contract. And then obviously, uh, looking to finish the third financial year strong. Obviously still got a few months left, but on track to do $5 million in revenue. And there's 5 360 recruiters in the business, 1 resourcer, you've got a marketing manager, and you've also got an EA as well. And you're yourself on track to do $800K, which is predominantly perm, although historically you've also done a dual desk.

Nailed it.

So I've just summed up all of your hard work in like 30 seconds.

Beautifully done. Thank you.

So where I wanted to get straight into it, and where I wanted to start, is something that you shared with me that you're sort of known for, or like your unique advantages. So something that you shared with me when we prepared for this is you, you like to sweat the small stuff.

Yeah.

So where I wanted to start was you're big into processes, um, and that goes hand in hand with sweating the small stuff. So why don't we start here? What, what's something that This year, and this, this third financial year, have you maybe changed, or you slightly changed, that you feel has had a big impact on performance? Because oftentimes when you sweat the small stuff, you don't make huge drastic changes. It's maybe slight tweaks or slight changes that you feel could have the biggest impact. What, what, what does that look like for you this year? What have been some of the, the small things that you've sweated that have generated some really positive impact?

I think if you ask my team, I probably swear all of the small stuff, but in the best possible way. This year for us, we invested heavily in our digital marketing capability and a lot of the content that we're producing, so whether that be white papers, blog content, doing webinars, podcasts, anything where we could elevate the value add back to our clients. We've also implemented new thought leadership groups. So, a big focus for me is customer experience and design. So, we hold CX collabs so we can continually add value back to the communities that obviously we recruit in, in a non-transactional, non-sales way to really help elevate that further. In terms of processes, I'm trying to think of all of the small little things that we've done. We have a consulting arm, and I'm very fortunate my business partner and husband is a customer experience and process improvement specialist. So we mapped all of our processes, whether it be our how to onboard a new employee, how to screen a candidate, the whole journey of going from screening to placement, our client engagement, actually our customer journey in terms of how do we even win business? What does that look like? And then at every single touchpoint of those and every time we interacted, what value add are we adding? What additional content can we add? What are we trying to achieve to move them through that funnel and move them further down that process? And little things that we can optimize along the way, whether that be the actual comms that we're sending, whether that be Even in our interview and screening, getting really, really deep with our candidates, building really genuine relationships with them as best one possibly can. I'm— yeah, everything along the way when it comes to anything to do with the journeys, to an inch of its life.

Why don't we— okay, why don't— why don't I ask you this then? Like, why? Why is that? Obviously, you've got your husband, maybe doesn't shut up about it maybe, but, and it's his world.

It was more me actually, I think.

Okay, fair enough. But like, why do you do that? Why have you done that? Why has that been your approach?

Yeah, I think for us, and it was one of the reasons why we launched Fraser Tramble to start with, you know, I've been very fortunate to work with amazing brands in the past, but we really wanted to elevate the experience. From the recruitment standpoint, you know, the experience that candidates get and the experience that our clients get. So, Brendan and I coming together and then optimizing our processes, they're repeatable, you know, they're consistent. You know, I'm acutely aware as a managing director and still a billing consultant that I cannot be all things to all people as much as I am sometimes and like to be as best I possibly can. And so, we really needed to be able to have consistent processes, consistent standards so that didn't matter what client dealt with one of the consultants, what candidate dealt with it, the experience was the same and it was elevated beyond what they were used to with other recruitment firms potentially as well. And that's kind of been our differentiator in the market. And so, that's why it's exceptionally important.

And how— because I think this is something that is often overlooked, particularly in smaller growing recruitment companies. So I, I do really think this is a smart way to go. I think what I've often found myself saying to recruitment founders that want to go from 5 heads to 10 to 15 to 20 is that you need systems and processes of a 20-person company before you're there. So how, how have you— obviously going granular here, but this is what's helpful for people— how have you I know when we prepared for this, you said you have like a 200-page document for the whole lifecycle. Like, how do you—

we do.

Okay. Understand that it needs to be repeatable. And how you do things isn't in Laura's head. There's somewhere that your team can go and maybe reaffirm how they're meant to do things and it's something they can refer to. But so how do you communicate that? How is that showcased to the team? Is it— yeah, like, is it just one big document that people can access? Like, How have you communicated internally your systems and processes out of interest?

Yeah, no, absolutely. When we, when we started, I didn't realize how much was in my head. And when you hire a rookie, because our first hire was a graduate, and I was just like, right, okay, great, this is going to be great. Get them on board. They're just going to watch me and they're just going to magically pick it up. Obviously that wasn't the case. So it was literally taking every single step of how to do a call, how to find candidates, so everything you can think about in the recruitment process, how to headhunt, how to do business development, you know, objection handling, anything you could possibly think of, and we created training documents on everything. So yes, I think all up if we add it together it's probably about 200 pages, but in our SharePoint we've got different files for different parts of the journey, so The consultants can go in and be like, right, what's the process for onboarding a new contractor? They can go in, they can see everything, they know each of the steps, it's all mapped out. My wonderful EA has also done some video training where she talks people through where to go, how to do it. Our digital marketing manager has done a great job, she does our social media training, so she'll sit down every month with the team, what's your social media content for the month, finesse it and get up. And then there's training documents on how to elevate your social media, our branding, our tone of voice, you name it, we've got a document and a training tool on it. And then for me, it's, you know, when I've got the ability to, it's having individual sessions on each part of that. And some people are struggling with one area, some aren't, and so it's just being bespoke to the different consultants and tap when they when they need it, to be honest.

Nice. So all documented in SharePoint. There's some video content in there as well, but you've made assets that people can easily access on, on SharePoint. Okay, so if I'm listening right now and everything is in my head, I've got nothing documented, I'm nowhere near a 200-page like document. Yeah, like where I'm, I'm a recruitment founder, me and you, uh, you know, met for breakfast, I'm telling you like, yeah, it seems pretty chaotic. I'm finding it hard to get people up to speed. I find myself repeating myself a lot. And you're saying you need to document your process. Like, where— what's version 1? What's like the first step? Because this can feel really overwhelming for people. So where would you recommend people start as like their first step if they want to get better at having systems and processes, repeatable processes documented in their business?

Look, we, I started with Post-it notes, a whiteboard, and the first thing I was teaching our grads were how to make a screening call. So I just started at the bare basics of that, how to find them, where to find them on the system, headhunting, and we just mapped all of that out with Post-it notes, moved them around. If they go yes, where do you go next? And then once we had those Post-it notes, I was very fortunate Brendan was able to take a picture of that and put that into a process mapping tool. But I mean, there's a lot out there. You've got Mural and Mura and stuff like that, which you— it's easy for anybody to use. You don't need to be a process improvement specialist by any stretch of the imagination, but sometimes just basic Post-it notes on a whiteboard or on a glass and just moving them around, taking a picture of it, and then maybe getting somebody else to actually design that for you so you know what your process looks like. And then it's just documenting it step by step like a, like a user manual. And taking it one at a time, because you're not gonna— like, if that's— oh my goodness, the training and the process mapping and all of the research that we've done, that's taken us 3 years and we're still finessing it. You know, is there parts that we've over-engineered? What's working, what's not? You know, new people come in and be like, "Oh, that's interesting. Have you done it this way before?" "No, we haven't. Actually, maybe we should look at our processes and add that in. That's a great idea." And so it should be evolving to a degree, but a lot of it is the same. So you're rinsing and repeating every single time.

So we've heard the benefit of how this can help a maybe, uh, recruitment founder that's feeling a bit chaotic. They feel like a lot of their thing, the things that on how to do things is in their head. And like I said, they're finding themselves repeating themselves. They might be struggling to get people up to speed. Um, I understand the benefit there, but do you think there's also a benefit for the recruiters listening to this to taking a step back and actually trying to understand how they do what they do? Like, is this something that you think— obviously you're a business owner now, but do you think going through this journey, Laura the recruiter who's an employee would have benefited of doing a sort of exercise like this?

Oh, absolutely. Look, I I think I've trained myself to be quite a methodical, process-driven individual. I'm creative by nature, I've got dyslexia, so I think differently anyway at the best of times, but in certain things it's easy for me to go off on a tangent, so I've trained myself just to be really methodical and process-driven. But for all recruiters, like, we haven't revolutionized recruitment. Recruitment is a process. Sure, it's a bit of science and a bit of art along the way, and a good chunk of luck sometimes too, but It's a process, you know, and once you nail that process, it becomes, it becomes second nature, and then you can work on the finer arts of interviewing and excelling at sales and different techniques and all that sort of stuff. But the basics of recruitment is, is simply a process.

Yeah, and I think what I also really like about having this approach is I don't know if you found this throughout your career or even with some of your team, but when things aren't working in recruitment and you're maybe not having some of that luck, uh, you're doing the same things that have often given you the outcomes that you wanted. But having a, a process and a way of doing things, it then enables you to have a better understanding of, uh, like diagnosing what is working, what isn't. Um, which is what I also like about it as well. Like, if you have a way of doing things and you've documented that and you've got the how, um, written down, then you can start tampering with that to try and see if that way is no longer working, right? Whereas if you haven't got anything documented, you haven't got a process, you're sort of shooting in the dark really, and you can find yourself just changing a whole bunch of things, but actually It was only how you maybe qualified a candidate that slightly needed to change, or the job briefing call, maybe you needed to ask a couple of extra questions, which resulted in less dropouts and working on unfillable jobs. So, I think that's also the benefit. It makes improving and understanding what you need to change more easier.

Absolutely. And being able to diagnose yourself to a point then where it's not, you don't need me to coach you going, okay, what could we have done differently in that situation? What part of the process could we have optimized? The consultants will naturally start going, yeah, okay, I could have done this, this, and this, and they know what part of the process. It's just like KPIs, which I know can be a dirty word to some, but the data will tell you a story. It doesn't tell you the full story, just like a good process will tell you the story but doesn't tell you the full story. But it's a baseline that you can go back to to be like, cool, what did I miss?

So Laura, I'm absolutely gonna have to get you to share with us some of your processes, 'cause that's what people are gonna wanna learn from, are gonna be interested in. But before I do, what's been like the outcome, the results of being so obsessed with customer experience? I mean, you've got on your LinkedIn things like, this is what I feel like is the outcome, but let's talk about it. You've got stats on there like 97.6 fill rate on your exclusive roles, 100% fill rate on your retained roles, Like, what— by having this obsession with process, customer experience, what is then the net positive? Is it that your recruiters are more effective? Is it that actually you get more repeat business? What have you found to be the actual outcome of being so obsessed with that?

So many. You know, one of the reasons launching FT was that we wanted to work where possible exclusively with businesses, not for all of the roles, but in our niche area. So it was role by role. And with that, we work, like 80% of what we do is exclusive or retained. And with that, it means we can offer a higher level of service too. And that's where we use our cool video tech, that's where we do our sophisticated market mapping, headhunting, personalized videos, email outreach, digital marketing, all the other great stuff that we do because we're working exclusively or retained. And the results that we've got is Yeah, our retained work, we've got 100% fill rate. Across the team for exclusive, we're actually, this quarter alone, we're actually sitting at 100%. There's always gonna be error, but at the minute it's 100% because we're able to spend the time and actually follow the process. We're not having to rush. You know, the old analogy, throw enough mud at a wall and hope something sticks. That's just not us. You know, when clients come to us, they can trust. That we're gonna deliver what they need to do. And then when candidates come to us, we can be super transparent. Who's the role? What's the client? What's the good, the bad, and the ugly of that business? What the culture's like? We don't need to hide who the client is. And it just all up elevates the service for us as well. So, it means that we're working less roles with less clients, but we're delivering value and we're delivering roles and commercially it makes sense as well. You know, I think it's what the average in recruitment is filling, what, 1 in 3 roles? Sometimes it can be as bad as 1 in 5. And that's just not, it's just not who we are.

So end result is you spend more time working on jobs that you actually get paid for.

Pretty much.

And has— I've interviewed other people that are really obsessed with customer experience. How was this also manifested in like referrals. This is also something that I've often found is when you are obsessed with this and you have those types of fill rates and you deliver a great process, it means you're more likely to have people recommend your service. Yeah. And you're also more likely to have clients spend more money with you. Has that been the case for you guys?

Yeah, look, absolutely. Look, I mean, when I— when we launched, we were a challenger brand. Granted, I've been in the industry a decade and like to think I'd built up a relatively good reputation, but we were a non-known entity. So we had to share something different with them. So I've lost my train of thought now.

That's right, no worries. I was saying like how has this also, like when I've interviewed people in the past, like the also net benefit of having this focus is, the amount of referral business they get, the amount of client spend. Like, has that, has that been like, has that showed up for you guys? Is that also manifested in that way?

Yeah, no, absolutely. Like a lot of the times we might be working in, say, the customer experience area, and I've been able to penetrate that area, did great work, and they're like, actually, Laura, we've got to, you could do business transformation. We've got a business transformation and technology team. Let me make some introductions. And off the back of that one role and delivering it, we've absolutely been able to penetrate different areas of the business. A lot of like our top 3 clients that we work with now, we are their exclusive talent partners for all of the roles across all of our core areas. And that's taken years to build that trust. But yeah, absolutely, because they know every time they come to FT, we'll deliver them, but we'll also give really honest feedback too. If their expectations are not in line with the market or we need to tweak things, they'll give us the time to find those people too and build that trust. But yeah, no, absolutely.

So let's dig into a process then, because I know this is what people are going to be interested in. And I know you're not saying this is perfect, this is, you know, the most up-to-date version and it might be updated. You know, as you go on this journey, you get feedback. There isn't going to be a recruiter out there listening to this that isn't gonna like the idea of having a 98, 100% fill rate, right? So there's going to be a lot of recruiters that listen to this that are in that, uh, segment of 1 in 5 jobs, 1 in 3 jobs, 1 in 4 jobs they work that they get paid on.

Yeah.

So I'd love for us to just walk through how you're currently approaching, particularly like the exclusive piece. So let's sort of break this down. Like, how do you think about this from a client engagement standpoint? Let's start there. Like, how— where does this process start? Are we actively approaching companies with a marketable, placeable candidate? Are we specifically approaching companies that we've done really good work with their competitors and we leverage that? Are we approaching companies that you've been tracking and seeing that they've got live vacancies and it's been live for a couple of weeks? So you might— there might be some pain and challenges there which you leverage. Like where I know it like varies, but where have you often— where does this client engagement piece start in your process?

Yeah, well, I think all of those things in small doses in some ways, but we We mapped what our customer journey is right from the awareness of actually looking for a recruitment firm. So, obviously our digital marketing plays a big part of that. To that first coffee catch-up, what does that look like? To how do we move them from a coffee catch-up to doing a proposal? How do we move them from being a proposal to signed terms of business? How do we get them from signed terms of business to actually engaging and delivering the role? And then to becoming an advocate and circling back from that. So, we mapped all of that out. We then started to create, well, what content do we need to be giving them at each part of that, past the point of our social media, past the point of webinars and all the other stuff that we do for that top of funnel brand awareness. And then it's the doc— like, when it comes to the client engagement, it would be like capability documents. We do, well, we started to do a lot more case studies. What does that look like? What were our clients' problems? What were similar businesses these other businesses work in? That we can equally solve, creating those case studies. We did a lot of video testimonials as well, so help with our social proof. The team also, we do Sourcer, so you, I don't know if you have that in the UK just yet, but I think they're expanding, about getting the testimonials and the independent feedback and using that as social proof the whole way through our sales process. But predominantly, playing the long game. You know, like, you can do your job specing, you can do your candidate specing, and all the other sort of stuff, but we wanted to get businesses before they needed to hire. And in my experience, that's where we've had, like, all of our, like, our top 3 clients have all been long-term plays that I've just kept chipping away at each month, each year, to finally we get them. And then now that we do, we're working with them exclusively, pretty much for all of their roles in our core, core area of IT and business transformation and CX. But other things, you know, along that journey, I'm trying to think of other things that I could share as well.

Let's do it this way. That's really helpful. So, really interesting that you say 3 of your biggest spenders, like you said, you chipped away at them and it wasn't an immediate, like, thing that you started working with them, right? So, why don't I ask you this? What makes a, what makes a good coffee catch-up? Like, that's interesting that you could— that's like your first step. So because that, that sort of tells me that that's, yeah, like a long-term play, or you're not going straight in trying to sell your services, which a lot of people do. You're not trying to go straight in with selling a candidate or whatever. Yeah. What, what does this coffee catch-up look like? What's the purpose from your side? Are you simply looking to make a connection? Are you trying to educate them? Are you trying to give them insights on the market, why would a prospect have a coffee catch-up with a recruiter? Like, how is that framed? Why is that the first step? And what does a good coffee catch-up look like?

We're very particular about our coffee here in Melbourne, so it all starts with a good coffee shop. But no, it's identifying who our ICPs are, our ideal customer personas. And for us here at FT, it's a company that's going through transformational growth, or they're looking to internally transform their technology, people, or processes. So that's kind of the core. Outside of that, we're pretty sector agnostic. And so once we identify businesses that are going through some level of transformational growth or merger and acquisition, those sort of projects that are happening in the industry, it's researching who do I know within the business. You know, I've been connected in the industry for a decade, so more often than not I'll know somebody that I can leverage from. But for those who are starting from scratch, you don't have that, you don't have that to go in with. So I think it's just being really smart about the research that you do. What can you find out on the person individually? How can you personalize that to actually grab their attention enough to be like, oh, that's interesting that you know that. Little things and picking them up. But that coffee catch-up, it's really ability for them to be— they should be talking. Like 80% of what you should be just being silent to a degree. Even very rarely in those first catch-ups am I even talking about recruitment, to be quite frank. I am so incredibly fascinated and curious, even 10 years on, about what's going on in these businesses. What's the tech stack? What's the complexities? What's the leadership going through? I heard there was a new target operating model. What happened there? What consulting firms are in? What's your pain points generally about what they actually do rather than the people. The more I can really uncover the really true pain points, 9 out of 10 times, it's not people. That's the solution. I think I just focus really, really hard on the challenges that they're going through and then slowly chip away and be like, "Cool. What's the plans for the future? Where the talent gaps are? How do you assess your talent? What tech tests do you do?" or whatever it might be depending on who you're speaking to. Then be like, A couple of weeks later, "Oh, I seen this and thought of you." You know, and we've got quite the library of— giving away our secrets here, but we've got a library of a whole load of white papers specific to that industry or specific to that challenge, or here's interview guides that we've produced, or whatever it might be. And at the right point going, "Hey, I think you mentioned X, Y, and Z. I think this piece, this might be really helpful." Let me know your thoughts. And so it, it sounds basic, but it's, it's— and doing that consistently as well.

Whilst we take a short break, I wanted to take a moment to chat to you about one of our amazing partners, Sourcewell, the industry-leading recruitment engagement platform. I'm using myself, and I don't know what I would do without it. From building personalized messaging cadences across a variety of channels to automating follow-ups and data tracking straight back into my CRM. It's really made an impact in streamlining my workflow and most importantly, accelerating my sales results. My favourite feature by far is the live feed. By being able to see in real time who's engaging with your campaigns, it enables me to prioritise my outreach with the most engaged prospects, which helps me get way more out of what I put in. So I'm gonna be honest, if you haven't got Sourcewell and you're a recruiter, I really believe you're at a disadvantage. To find out more and see the platform in action, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. Because you listen to this podcast, you're going to be able to get access to an exclusive offer: free 50 phone credits, 50 email credits, which is at the value of circa £500 per user. So make sure you mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast and click the link in the show notes. No, I think the thing to underline here is you, like you said, you go into these meetings really like with a curious mindset.

Yeah.

And like you said, I really like the way that you said that the people were often the solution. Um, so going into these meetings, really trying to learn about their business, like the overall issues they're having, where they're going, where they're at, like, you know, really getting a holistic view of the actual business. And why this is so impactful is because then obviously you have really valuable information, um, that can help you then come up with or talk to these people about solutions at the appropriate time, or have a better understanding of what, you know, if they— if you were to work together, like, what, what problems would our partnership need to solve? Rather than like talking about the live vacancies they have and the skill sets they, they require. I think that that's the thing to take away here, that recruiters listening really need to lean into. Um, because if you have more of those commercial conversations, you're going to then be able to, um, be able to actually offer solutions. Um, and it is like— I know you said it's simple, but a lot of people won't be doing that or having that approach. So you almost also, uh, like stand out as well. I think— let, let me ask you this then. I know we're going granular here, but What— so you obviously have your ICP, obviously, because like your process, why would you not? So you explain that really well.

Doesn't everybody?

So let me ask you this. So our mindset is let's learn about the business, let's learn about this individual, let's be curious, let's ask smart questions, etc., etc. What— when you're sitting there and you're starting to hear information that's making you feel like okay, this, this could be in the long term an exciting opportunity. Like, this is a business that is really going in the direction that I feel we've got a good track record in, is a company we might be able to help in, in several ways. What are some of the, the trigger points or some of the, the information that you hear that makes you go, guys, I've just met a business that could be our next biggest client? You know, what are some of the important bits of information that you, you, yeah, you found to be like good trigger points that could mean in the long term they could be a great client?

Yeah, well, a couple of other things as well. I think a lot of recruiters can sometimes go for the big brands, and, you know, everybody is of course looking at the, the enterprise. We've sort of targeted— so we work with enterprise too, but the bulk of our clients are those mid-sized companies that probably not a lot of people have heard of, and that don't have that brand clout in the market to potentially grab top talent by themselves, so that's kind of the first point of contact. But in the actual meetings themselves, I'm listening out for legacy system upgrades, merger and acquisitions, they've just bought another business, they've got duplications of systems, their processes aren't optimized, that's obviously music to my ears, you know, given I'm very passionate about process improvement. I recruit a lot in the Lean Six Sigma space, so that's always a big thing that pops up. Investment in cybersecurity, their infrastructure needs to be upgraded, they've got a new change management piece that needs to be rolled out, merger and acquisition as well, divestments, you know, they're trying to move away or sell a part of their business, they've just won a piece bigger work, we work with local government as well, so if they might got investment or a grant of some nature, um, God, there's so many.

Oh yeah, that's really helpful.

So many different trigger points, but Yeah, we should, you should be giving 2 bits of advice to a potential hiring manager, but also you should be getting 2 bits of insights. Whatever those 2 bits of insights that are relevant to your market, you should always be coming away from a client meeting having given 2, but also getting 2 back. And that could be as simple as who the head of talent is, or who the head of procurement is, or somebody else that you need to ultimately get in contact with, but yeah.

And I think what, I don't know if you agree with this or not, but I think, when you have this approach, what you can then do that really does deliver value— when you're having these types of conversations and you're listening, you can then information share, right? So now if you're listening, you're asking smart questions, and you're having these coffee catch-ups, you can start going, Laura, that's really interesting you say that because I spoke to this other person that's in a similar position to you that was facing the same. This is sort of how they're thinking about it. What do you think about that? Right? And you can start exchanging information and insights that actually is going to make you memorable whilst also it being really helpful, right? Um, when you're having these wider conversations. So to round this out then, if I'm, if I'm thinking about, you know what, I should be implementing more consistent coffee catch-ups, um, and meeting with decision makers in this way, what, um, I'm hoping you have a process for this. I'm going to put you on the spot here. What do you think would be— what would like a good agenda look like? What would like an agenda look like for a coffee catch-up that could help sort of frame some of the key topics of information or key topics that we want to cover? What's like the agenda going to look like for a coffee catch-up?

Yeah, look, I think, you know, the old saying is people buy people is— I still believe rings true. And so I think the first 5-10 minutes of any client meeting should absolutely be, what's your kids doing? What do you do at the weekend? What do you do for fun? What footy team, if you're in Melbourne, what footy team do you support? I don't support any, so I'll normally just play along with that one. You know, and start to really get to know the person. I think that's really, really important. And the next part for us is really unpacking. We should have done, like all of the team would have done the research. You know, what the hiring's been like, what's the growth, what's the retention. So, we've got insights tools that will give this information. We normally come prepared with who else we know within the business or who else we're connected. Unpacking where do they sit within the org structure, getting them to tell us the story of who's who in the zoo. And then we get into more of the granular stuff, the reason why. So, I see that you've just— superannuation's a sector for us. So, I see you've just merged with 'Hey, I know you've got A, B, and C superannuation fund. Talk me through how that's going. What's the challenges there?' And then they just naturally start opening up about what's going on and kind of lead the conversation from there. And then if it's appropriate, then obviously, you know, they've met us for a reason. Like, nobody reaches out to a recruiter just to have a good old coffee catch-up. Well, maybe some people do, but they're all pretty busy, and a lot of our hiring managers are executives. So there's normally a reason. There's like And then I'll ask them, is there anything really particular that I could help add value here and now? Is there any sort of market insights? Because I could go off on a massive tangent on a lot of different market insights that I've got, but it might not be relevant to what they actually want. So I think I just put the question back to them. They'll tell me, and then I'll add value where I possibly can. And then always doing a follow-up, you know, being like, cool, so what would be the most appropriate time to follow up with you? You said actually you're going to be hiring in a couple of weeks, who else should I be speaking to to preempt that being triggered, and what do you need from me to be able to do that? And then just setting a really clear follow-up, what to expect. And we've got a rule, every time you meet a client, you always send a follow-up email that day. You know, so it's like, when I was talking about our processes, we also map the emotional journey as well, 'cause of course, why wouldn't you? And you want to, if you wanna get the best possible outcome, Same with your candidates in terms of feedback. You want to get them at the high emotional peak to get any of the good information that you actually need. It's the same with your clients, you know, when you're building that reputation, so when they, you've met them and they're getting an email that day, you're doing what you said you were going to do, and you added some additional value insight into that email as well, they're going, "Ah, hmm, these guys are different." And then it's a comment on LinkedIn, and then it's a follow-up in some other way that's non-salesy, so you're front of mind in a smart way.

Yeah. The insight that I really took from that, and it's something that I really try and be religious with. So for us in our process, we have a discovery call and then we would from there decide if we think it's a good idea to do like a presentation. Is on my first bullet point on that is like Yeah, what, what insights am I bringing to the conversation? So I love that because that can often be missed, like especially, you know, if you're further on in your career, even in your first year, if you think about how many client meetings or candidate meetings you have, you can get complacent with them. But I think again, that's a little— sweating the small stuff, going into these meetings with that information, going, hey Laura, I noticed that you worked with so-and-so. I actually worked with them 2 years ago, like How do you guys meet? Or whatever it may be. That's again those moments to go, oh God, this person is, is different, is standing out, and is, yeah, providing a different experience. So I really like that research piece. So let's move on. That, that was really helpful. So let's move on to, um, the proposal. Yeah, the exclusive agreement, because I think this will be interesting for people. So talk us through. So let, like, let's just say We had a coffee catch-up, we got some really important information, we did the follow-up on the day. You're then adding value in, in the different ways that you do. You've agreed to have another conversation and set time period, and this is where then there's an opportunity to talk about how your business could support theirs with the needs and the issues that they have. Like, you mentioned proposal, which I find interesting. Like you know, that isn't, that isn't like a fairly common terminology when it comes to winning business, winning jobs, right, is proposal. It's more of, um, trying to close and get terms agreed, do you know what I mean? So would you mind sharing us a bit about— because this is what makes you guys unique, which I think, you know, for any recruiter listening to this, these are some of the advantages that you can get by joining a business that takes these things seriously, is having a process which means you're gonna have a higher chance of being successful, right? And you're not just having to figure this all out on the job. So talk us, talk us through that, that context. So we're at a proposal meeting— that might not be what it's called externally, but internally it's a proposal meeting. Talk us through how we frame the exclusive agreement and how that, how that works.

Yeah, well, we've got— I'm sure this language is universal, but we've got what we call So, you've got your capability document, which is like a one-pager, like, this is what we do on a tin. But when we're doing actual presentations, we've got a really condensed pitch deck that we talk them through. Of course, that could be bespoke depending on if we know the inner workings of what they're trying to pitch to us, and what we're trying to win the work for. And we did one recently, so it was for a team, to build a team of 10, that were moving to a different tech stack from, on-prem to cloud, so we were quite specific in that. But within that pitch deck that we then follow up with a proposal is all of the social proof that we've got. So, we take them through the journey of, by the end of it, it's like, why wouldn't we wanna work with these guys exclusively?

[Speaker] So, let's go through that, let's go through the pitch deck then, because I'm assuming, in terms of like the emotional journey of that, or how you structure that, because I'm assuming, is that where you frame, this is how we recommend we work together. And then so talk us through that. So I think, because I think that would be interesting for people. So what does that look like? Are you starting with— because I have the same process, so I start with this is what we've learned so far. If we were to work with each other, this is sort of what the future state would look like in terms of like the goals that we would achieve. Laura, have I, have I listened correctly here? Are we on the same page? Like, is this— am I, am I missing anything drastically important here? What else would you add to this? Um, then it would then go into— obviously for me, it would then go into the actual solution, which would be different for you. But talk us through that sort of pitch deck, Jenny, because I'm sure, again, you've been very intentional about how you, how you structured that.

Yeah, we, we normally— like, let's say we know the client. Let's just assume that we know the client and for a specific piece of work that we're pitching. And we'll definitely tell the founder story, you know, how we've been in the industry as long as we have, but we launched in COVID, kind of tell a bit of a funny story and sort of build that sort of picture and how we've been successful only 4 years later. We'll talk about all the brands. We've got a lot of social proof now. We've got over 50 clients, so we'll be bespoke about the clients that we highlight based on who we're speaking to, and really highlight them. Then we'll go into case studies. So specific ones that we know they're going to resonate with that particular client. And it's all about the facts and figures. Clients, they don't want the fluff. Like, just tell them exactly what the problem was, what your time to fill was, what the challenges were that you overcome. No process is perfect, so don't be afraid to say what the challenges were and how you creatively overcome them. So, we do the case studies in that part of the proposal. And then we actually talk them through how rigorous our processes are. For those that care, we're ISO certified 9001. Anybody in procurement loves hearing this stuff, so we make sure we let them know that. And then we're going through our actual, what we call our future fit method. So that's our 6 steps that we've narrowed down our process and we talk them through each of those 6 steps and what they can expect. I am so So, some of the things that would be in there would be our focus on diversity and inclusion, and how we optimize that, and how we try to remove unconscious bias from our recruitment processes so they're ultimately getting a more diverse shortlist. We'll talk them through some of the cool video tech that we do, that we use to headhunt candidates, and what our reply rates are. We'll talk around our social proof and what our reach is in social media. So, we'll talk them through all of this, and then we'll talk them through their business challenges and how they actually complement each other, and it kind of rounds it out to be like, cool, you're kind of getting them up, and then you give them two options. So when it comes to fees, um, only ever two options, and basically the best option is always the exclusive one. And by that stage, there would be no other reason to work with us exclusively unless it was purely cost. And if it's purely cost, that's okay too, and we've got an option for that. Just we wouldn't utilize our FutureFit method to do it.

Yeah. So the two options, retained and exclusive, I'm assuming.

Yeah.

And then how, how do you frame the exclusivity piece? Is it, are you discounting on the fee for us working together for this set period and you can't work with anyone else? How do you like frame that?

Yeah, we normally ask for exclusivity for 4 weeks, which is actually probably less than a lot of other businesses. And, and again, it's It's about picking the clients you know you're going to be able to partner with and that are invested actually in having a talent partner. So, again, you just have to be really particular about who you want to work with and the reasons why and making sure it's a good partnership from the outset. But we're competitive with that because we'll never take on work we know we can't fill, put it that way. If that was the case, we'd do it contingently or, you know, it's just not— not the way we'd operate.

And then have you found from a business owner perspective, by having this approach, by having these supporting assets, that your team, your less experienced team that are starting to do more of the process, are more confident or have more confidence more quickly? Because you've, you've got— if I think of my first like BD calls and negotiating and stuff, it's just me on the phone. Talking about, I've got this candidate, we've worked with this company, and like you almost have to get them just to believe in like, like how you're coming across, and like they have to buy into you and believe, no, yeah, I feel like Laura can help me with this, like she's saying she can help me with this. But this is what I love about this, is like how much more confident you can be. You've literally got like visual assets that's telling the story that you can talk through and, you know, if we were to work together, this is what happens, this is what we do. Um, and because you've got this all documented, I just feel like that massively helps people just get better more quickly at winning great clients that you can do great work with. Like, have you found that since taking these people on this journey with you that have become 360 Consultants?

Look, I'm sure some of my junior team members will still tell you they're absolutely heart-scared of picking up the phone or reaching out and doing BD. I think everybody has those nervousness, but it provides them with the confidence that there's a lot of information that they can use, and it's readily available, you know, and they know what it is, and they feel confident going out to a meeting because they've done the prep, they've used the template, they've filled in what they need to do, and more often than not, they're still coming with me or one of the other senior consultants, you know, but you'll hear them doing the USPs and you'll be like, Well done, I like that. And it's the same with our candidates too. We have, you know, USPs for why candidates should work with us, and we have USPs why clients should work with us. And I'll occasionally drop it in the middle, be like, tell me the 3 USPs for why candidates should use FT. What's 3 USPs for our clients? And they're like, um, blah blah blah. I'm like, cool, you got it, thank you. And they're like, what the hell was that? You know, so it's just reinforcing it. And so it becomes natural, and the more natural it becomes, the more confident you become in saying it and believing it, because it's true. You know, we're not telling anybody anything that's not tried, proved, and tested. So yeah, so there's integrity with that as well. It's not smoke and mirrors.

We'll get back to the episode in just one minute, but today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Firefish, the recruitment CRM that accelerates data-driven growth. The problem with most recruitment CRMs is that they are just a database of records, meaning they become just one of the many tools that recruiters use every day. Like all systems, the records are only as good as the data being captured. Our sponsors Firefish know that for agencies to win faster, data needs to be at the heart of their business, making your CRM the single source of truth. With over 10,000 records created and updated every day, and 85% of placements from existing candidates, Firefish enables recruiters to enrich and engage their data, equipping you with real-time insights needed to win faster. To learn more about Firefish and take advantage of an exclusive Recruitment Mentors Podcast offer, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast when speaking to the Firefish team. And then, and then just, just two things then on this. Have you found, again, I know this might be, this has been a bit of a journey with you building a track record, these types of things, but it's really interesting that the example that you shared when we're speaking about this is around building a team of 10. So my question is, have you found by having this process, by being smart from the coffee meetings, playing the long game, finding out about their business, then we're talking about, you know, our process, our future fit model, which I really, I think that's named really well. I really like that. That makes me intrigued straight away. But like, have you found that this has enabled you to win, like, how do I say, like, not ones and twos? Like, it's like, if you do win business and you've taken them through this process, has it meant that you've— yeah, that it's been more like hiring projects and like higher value business compared to guys, I've got a job, I'm gonna work on this one job and fill it. Do you get what I mean? Is that, is that true? Or—

yeah, yeah, look, I mean, when we first started, of course, all business was spot business. You were getting one role and you're like, happy days, and then you leverage from it. But look, nearly 4 years on, absolutely, I'd say half of the clients that we work with are multiple roles. And when I say multiple roles, we're talking 5, 10, 15, 20 Sometimes some of our biggest clients are 25, 30 a year, and they're basically working with us absolutely exclusively, you know, and that's still on us to deliver. We never— and that's the other thing, like, we never, we never get up to our own hype. Are we doing a fantastic job? Yes, I like to think so. Do we get it right all the time? No, but we constantly have to keep proving ourselves and constantly being humble with that. I mean, how can we do better, you know? And then being kind to yourself when you don't do it well, because like we all fail. We're either learning, we're either winning or learning, like I say. So yeah, I love that.

And then, okay, cool, that's great. And then the second thing, I'm going to be direct here, but it's only because you shared it. So you said about the free USPs. So the reason why that intrigued me is if we were to line up 50 recruiters right now in 50 different agencies and you said, Laura, give me the 3 USPs of why, uh, of a candidate or client, uh, of working with your business. How many people do we think could execute that? Oh, not, not sure.

From my team or from like—

no, no, I'm saying the reason why it intrigued me is because if we were to do, if we were to do that with like 50 different agencies, I, I don't think many could just hit you with like their USPs, right? Because again, how many know them? No, I don't think they would. Like, the percentage-wise, yeah, I'd be surprised if it'd be 50%, being honest with you. And this is what— where I wanted to ask you in terms of— which is why I think that's great that you again process, right? But is a USP— you know, if you're happy to share your USPs, then, then do. But my straightaway is like, typically I think what you would hear— I don't know if you agree with this— would be I'm a specialist and we only work with like so-and-so and we're a niche and they're the typical things that people go to. But like, what— how do you frame the USPs? Is it around like the market and the discipline? Is it about the case studies and we've got a track record of this? Do you get what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, look, we've got— there's multiple— it depends, I guess, who you're actually speaking to. But look, one of our, one of our USPs is our focus on diversity and inclusion. You know, and a more diverse team actually improves the bottom line by 30%. You know, so through our network, through our— the work that we do and the way we train our consultants and how we interview and how we assess candidates, they're actually getting a more diverse and inclusive group of people to their teams. And one of our other USPs is the video tech that we use, which is music to a lot of executives' ears, is we use video tech that's going to save you 50% time of recruitment. And they go, oh, tell me more. And then I show it to them and they're like, oh, that's cool. Love that. So I think it's just any of the pain points, your USP should be their pain points. It shouldn't be, I've got 100,000 people in the database.

Great. Yeah. No, I think if you listen to this and yeah, Laura asks you what your free USP is and you're not sure, like absolutely that's an exercise that you wanna document and really think about. And then just to round this out then, I know we've literally gone on like the BD journey, haven't we? But I know this will be really helpful for people. So then we've done, we've gone through all of that, and then I'm assuming it's then there's like a decision to be made. I don't know, you might have like a follow-up call, or there might even, people might even decide there and then like, yeah, Laura, like this, this is exactly what we need. This is the type of partner that we need. We want to work with. And then obviously post this or post like getting the agreement signed, do we then go into like job briefing calls and we do that after this part of the process?

Yeah, we do. If we're working exclusively or retain with a business, another thing that we do that our candidates love, I'm giving away the trade secrets, is a video interview actually with the client. So just like you and I, you're interviewing me, I'll actually interview the client and really get to the nuts and bolts of What makes that business tick? What makes that leader tick? So, that's normally the first thing that we do to get that collateral so then our marketing team can create all of our beautiful digital job descriptions. But then, yeah, it's going into the job brief. I also try to do, as time can sometimes play a part in this, is try to speak to some other people in the business that we haven't actually dealt with and do a bit of due diligence, you know, particularly if it's a new business. They, just like candidates, can tell you anything that they want to as well, so can businesses and hiring managers. So we like to do our due diligence and get a couple of different data points, so then we're going out to market, we can do it in a really authentic way, and we can be really transparent with candidates about what that environment's like, what challenges they're going to come up against, and what success looks like in that particular business. And then they go, no, it's not for me. And I'm like, brilliant, fantastic, thanks.

Yeah. And this is, this is once like we've agreed to work together, I'm assuming.

This is we've signed, sealed, and delivered, and we're ready to go.

Yeah, yeah. This is also the thing I love about this approach, like those things that you just mentioned, like you're, you're more— you're very unlikely going to be able to do those types of things if, um, yeah, you've just gone in straight in with like the candidate, or you haven't taken them on this journey, right? So they're more invested, so you can then do these types of things, which then downstream from that, as you just said, means you can go to market more effectively and you can really deliver the message. You can make people emotional about potentially working for this company. Um, so then downstream from that, yeah, obviously, of course, they're going to be hard searches and it's difficult, but you give yourself an even higher chance then of filling the job. Yeah, right. But yeah, I just, I just really, um, love this approach and it's just so interesting that we've got to this point in the conversation and it's like the job briefing call and you're doing these things. And that's often where people start, if you get what I mean, right? That's where like I pitch Laura or I approach you and you're like, right, yeah, you've got some jobs, okay, tell me about them. Okay, yeah, so we will work on this for 20% and then it's like boom, like I'm getting into it, right? But like the journey that we've just gone on, you're doing all this work and then it's like, okay, now we're going to work with you, but you've got an agreement in place the fillability of the job is going to be a lot, um, more higher. Yeah. And then you can do even, like you just said, like these extra things that again is going to create a great experience for the, for the company, and then also for the, the candidates that you're going out to market, um, to. So I really appreciate you sharing all of that.

Very welcome.

Because I know, I know that's going to be helpful for a lot of people. So talk to me about— I know right now you're, you know, you're contributing you know, a solid amount revenue-wise still. I know you describe yourself as a biller, but how— talk to me a bit about how, how is Laura developing her entrepreneurial mindset? Like, what's top of mind for you as like a business owner right now when you're, you know, hopefully going to close out a really another strong third financial year? Like, how are you thinking about— because, you know, the common term of like on the business, in the business— like, how are you thinking about that? Because you're, you're really involved right now. I'm not saying that in like a negative way. It's, it's where you're at and the business size. Now you're where you're at. Why would you not be contributing? But like, what, what's top of mind of like, yeah, like how, how can you keep developing your, your business as a business owner? What have you got top of mind?

Yeah, one of our core values here at FT is growth matters, and it's that continuous learning and development. You know, I can We always learn. Like, nobody just stops learning. Well, maybe some people don't want to learn anymore, but, and that's why growth matters. But look, for me, it's listening to podcasts, you know. Obviously, I shared you were on my top 3 in Spotify. Steve Bartlett was number 1, so he pipped you to the post. But, but I think it's listening to other, other entrepreneurs. I also have a business coach as well that I catch up with every couple of weeks or monthly and unpack the real nitty-gritty business stuff that, you know, I'm equally learning along, along the way, you know. And I think that's just not being afraid to, to just fail and fail really, really quick and learn from it as humanly possible. And it's other things, it's, you know, it's just being in the industry. We probably spend more of the time learning about what our clients what their biggest challenges are and what's happening in their sectors and what's happening in their industries more than the recruitment sector in some ways. But I just think it's listening to other people, having those mentors, being open to new ideas. None of us know everything and just being open-minded to that. But yeah, no, I'm always reading, even though I'm dyslexic, I still try to read books. I listen to a ton of podcasts and then yeah, listen to my coach most of the time as well. Well, yeah.

So how do you— I mean, this, this might not be something that you want to do, but like, how, how do you think about Laura becoming less reliant on— like, you've got these systems, you've got these processes. Is that something that you're thinking about? Like, you know, you— if you want a business that is like small, profitable, you're enjoying the journey, you have a great team, and you're— you like, you know, generating, uh, revenue, and you like being hands-on then absolutely, this is the great thing about having your own business, you can create it how you want. But is that something you are thinking about? How can Laura be less reliant on when it comes to, you know, generating revenue and these things, or not really?

Absolutely. Like, I— being a million-dollar biller sounds fantastic, but kind of loses its edge when you're the business owner as well. Um, yeah, I joke with the team, I'm going to be the least commercially successful business in this business. And— but no, like, all jokes aside, at the minute where we're at, we're at that scaling part where, yes, I'm still billing, but that's not sustainable long-term. You know, I want to be focusing more on winning our enterprise clients, elevating the brand further, and working more with our digital marketing team, looking to expand potentially in new locations, what does that look like, different markets, obviously investing time in finding the right recruiters, but you can only scale as quickly as your processes let you. And at this stage, whilst we've got amazing processes, it takes time to train and to coach new consultants coming in. We've got two really, really senior practitioners, which I absolutely adore, and they're pretty self-sufficient. And then we've got two other more junior consultants that are doing fantastic work, but it takes a lot of work. And instilling those standards, and even experienced recruiters coming in, they're like, 'God, you guys do a lot.' Like, that's why I wanted to join. One of my team jokes his previous agency was like working at high school and he's gone to university now with FT. And so I think that takes time for, for me to be able to train them and coach them on new ways of doing things and elevating their own recruitment game. And to then they'll be the big billers and I'll just, I'll be growing the business and working on the business, which I still do, but probably not as much as I could be given I'm still billing.

Yeah, no, but that's great feedback to hear, right? Um, from people that have worked in different environments and they join yours, because outside looking in, you're a small growing business, but I think as we've all learned here, yeah, your systems and processes are of a business that's way ahead, way ahead of that, right? I think that's a great compliment.

And, you know, new tech and what does that look like, and invest in it and invest in the team so that they can optimize what they're doing. And spend less time in the boring admin stuff that none of us really enjoy.

Yeah, I love it. So it's exciting times. Um, I think we're gonna obviously won a lot of recent awards. Uh, obviously saw your acceptance speech on LinkedIn, the only person to drop an F-bomb on there, which you shared with me. Yeah, yeah. What, what, so what are you most— let's round it out. What are you most excited for then? Obviously we're, we're still very much in the third financial year. Looks like you're tracking for another year of solid growth, which is again, sounds great, right? But I'm sure you're incredibly pleased with that. But like, what are you excited about then going into the next year? Is it just continuation of Melbourne domination? Like, what we doing?

Absolutely. All of Australia, watch out. But no, I think, you know, in terms of growing the team, and it's not a vanity metric in terms of like, oh, we want to double in the next 12 to 18 months, which I think we're absolutely on track to do. But it's doubling so we can double the value that we're adding to the industry. And, you know, one client, one candidate at a time, and trying to elevate their experience and just showing what a credible career recruitment is. And, you know, being known for candidate and client experience. And I think that's really exciting that we're actually making a difference and we're hearing from people come back, even people that Like, I love getting the emails from candidates going, Laura, I was working with Gabrielle, I didn't get that job, but the way she treated me the whole way through that process was second to none. And that's from people that we don't even place. And stuff like that means the world to me.

So that's a true reflection, more of that, like the experience. Yeah, yeah.

And I don't mind the honors ceremony, like I quite enjoy a nice awards ceremony for some nice free champagne. So, um, that's, that's always nice.

Love it. Well, look, Laura, like, honestly, I think you should be incredibly proud of everything that you've built so far.

Thank you.

A husband and wife team, which I always respect. I think that's amazing. Um, and also really appreciate you, uh, sharing— like, we really went into detail on your process, how you approach your business, and I genuinely think that actually is, um, Um, yeah, like that, that really puts you, uh, in— I want to say that that's a real competitive advantage. So I'm really appreciative of you, like, sharing that. But most of all, as you said, like, yes, this can help your team as recruiters, but because of this, we're delivering a great service and a great experience. And as you'll know, you know, I'm on a big mission myself of changing perception of the recruitment industry. And I think if there's more organizations like yourself that are really trying to do everything they can to make sure, even if people don't get the end outcome that they want they're still going. What a fantastic experience. So I think kudos to you, and really excited to see how FT continues to grow from the UK.

Thank you kindly. Thank you for having me.