How to have it all, Recruitment Success & Motherhood: With Charlotte Flood

Of course, mum guilt is the worst.

What did you feel guilty for?

Oh, just that I wasn't with her, you know, and I wanted to be with her. And, you know, ultimately I know why I'm working and I really enjoy work. And it's a funny stage to be in. And I, I was really lucky in my old business, I was really well supported with that conversation.

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz. On this week's episode, I was joined by Charlotte Flood. We finally had someone from Australia back on the pod. It's been a while. Charlotte, you've been, you know, in recruitment for over 10 years, and you've really, you know, consistently built a network and served the PR and communications industry. You're building your family unit whilst building your career, so you're the mother of two. So in this conversation, we speak about her journey in transitioning to selling retained solutions and how she got much better at pitching and successfully selling that solution, as well as something that's really important to Charlotte, and that is building a family that she's proud of whilst building her career in recruitment. So we definitely talk about prioritization, time management, productivity, and a whole lot more. What you believe are the common characteristics and traits current top performers in today's market have in common.

Yeah, um, I guess for me it's all about—

enjoy this week's episode. Charlotte, welcome to the podcast.

Hello, how are you doing?

Thank you so much for joining me.

You're welcome, it's all good from sunny Sydney.

Yeah, there we go. I haven't, uh, was saying to Ryan, I haven't had, you know, someone from, you know, your part of the world for a little while. Um, a lot of people that do listen to the podcast are based in Australia, so I'm really excited for this conversation, I guess what I always like to do for people listening is just give them all some immediate context on who you are, the journey that you're on. And if I miss anything in terms of like, you know, the key highlights, please, please correct me. But Charlotte, you've been, you know, in recruitment for over 10 years and you've really, you know, consistently built a network and served the PR and communications industry. I think for most of the time you've been doing permanent recruitment, but there's been elements where you've done some contract, but predominantly it's been perm. I know you're, you know, a proud mother who, you know, you're building your family unit whilst building your career. So you're the mother of two, um, and that's all happened whilst you've built your recruitment career. And obviously over the last 12 months, just over 12 months, you joined a business called Creative Natives. After working for your previous business for nearly 10 years. And, um, obviously we can't say exactly because I don't know if it's at the end of the year, but I'm pretty sure you're on track to have your best year yet.

Yeah, that's right. Hopefully. Hope so anyway. But yeah, looking like it. Yeah.

Um, so amazing. So look, where I always like to start, Charlotte, is I'd love to sort of hear your perspective on what you believe are the common characteristics and traits the current top performers in today's market have in common?

Yeah, I guess for me it's all about being really values-led and true to yourself, authentic, and really giving a damn about what you're doing and why you're doing it. I think sometimes can be missed in recruitment is that, you know, you might see a job and a candidate and want to place them, and then you kind of move on and you don't realize the actual impact you're having on someone's whole life. You know, you've got their career in your hands, which then impacts their day-to-day their home life, their families, you know, their ongoing future. So, I think, you know, and then, you know, in turn, the kind of mental health aspect as well. So, I think taking a step back sometimes as a recruiter and really focusing on that and understanding that and having that level of emotional intelligence is really, really important. Obviously, for me, you know, to be a really good recruiter, I think you need to be really good at prioritizing and just kind of really setting, you know, setting things out for the day, but also being compassionate and honest and managing expectations around that as well. And also being curious, you know, I think asking questions is really imperative. Um, organized, really driven, and then also, you know, we— I am competitive. I'm not competitive against, you know, my team or, you know, anything like that, or against individuals, but I think inwardly competitive. I don't think there are any recruiters out there who, you know, good recruiters that have done really well that can say that they're not competitive. I think that's just something that's innate in a recruiter, in a good recruiter anyway. And then I think, you know, certainly something that I've experienced is to have, like, you know, you do grow a bit of a thick skin. You know, it's important not to take yourself too seriously. You know, you are going to experience knockbacks and days where it just all goes to shit, and, you know, you've just got to be able to pick yourself up and dust yourself off and get on with it. And Yeah, it's all about that for me.

Yeah, loads there, right? Prioritization, mindset, resilience. We're definitely going to go into the prioritization piece because I found it really interesting when we prepared for this. I guess let's just get straight into it. What I was just really keen to find out from you and understand is you've been doing your market for a long time. Right. So I guess where I just wanted to start was I'd love to get your perspective on how has Charlotte made sure that she doesn't get complacent? Because I really feel like, you know, when you've done a certain industry for a long time, you've been doing it for well over a decade. You work for one business for nearly 10 years. So, you know, complacency can creep in. You have your clients, they give you the great jobs. You have the people that you speak to. Not saying that, you know, it's still not hard, but complacency can definitely creep in. So, how have you— you mentioned competitiveness there, but how have you continued over the years to really make sure that, you know, you continue to keep trying to improve, keep trying to get better, and not get complacent because you've done the same market for so long?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think the market itself, like the PR and comms market, is really varied. So, for me, it's been quite difficult to ever feel complacent in it because I I wear so many hats on so many different days, you know, like I could be in speaking to, you know, the MD of a financial PR agency and then equally going the other end of the spectrum and going in to see a fashion PR agency. So I think it really keeps me on my toes and I find it really interesting and I have to learn new things every single day. And I do keep on top of, you know, what's happening, what my clients are doing, you know, their award-winning campaigns and things like that. I do I do understand where you're coming from though, and I think since making the move to Creative Natives, I think there's like, you know, any complacency that I may have been feeling along the way, you know, the back end of my last role has completely vanished. You know, I think it's a fresh perspective. We do things very differently. We've got a lot of great tools here. The team's really engaged. And yeah, I don't— I've never really thought about getting complacent in the market that I'm in. I've never really felt that way because I do feel like I am challenged and we do challenge ourselves on a day-to-day basis. And, you know, it's a very busy desk. I don't think there's been much time for complacency, to be honest.

I love it. Okay, cool. So would you mind just sharing? Because I think this would be helpful for people before we go into the sort of granular details here. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but obviously in the last 12 months, not entirely for the whole year, but over the last 7 or 8 months, have you been on a journey where you've been working a lot more on like a retained basis with your clients and customers?

Is that fair? Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, I'd say we brought in— we're working in much more of a retained model for the last, yeah, 9 to 10 months now, which is— which has been great.

Okay. Um, cool. So sorry, I was gonna say, yeah, we'll definitely get into that, but I just wanted to make sure that I understood that and, um, clarified that. I guess, like, why don't we— one of the things that when we prepared for this that I found really interesting, just to sort of just go really grounded here really, really quickly, was you shared with me how, like, right now you, you work 3.5 days or 4 days?

I work 3.5 days.

Yeah, 3.5 days. We're on track to have our best year yet, which is what, around 700-something, right?

Yeah, yeah, around that I should, I should expect, hopefully.

And obviously the best year before that, I think you said was just under 600.

Yeah, probably around the 550 mark. Yeah.

So I guess what, um, what I just wanted to, you know, get your perspective on was what do you think, because you told me that you got really good at just basically saying like no, prioritizing, being like really on it because you know, Charlotte has to do this, the school run, whatever time you have to, you know, you have to leave the office. You have, you know, really protected time with your family on Fridays. So I guess I just wanted to start the conversation of if you were to look at like your earlier career or as you were, you know, climbing the ranks and building your brand and market, what do you think in hindsight Charlotte probably said yes to or found yourself working on and the way that you're working that now you probably wouldn't? So like, what things now would you say no to that maybe, you know, as you're early on, you'd say yes to and you would do that maybe, yeah, resulted in you not being as efficient, not being as like, you know, proper on it because of your time. And then yeah, we'll go into like how you do it now. But I just thought I'd start there because a lot of people listen to this, you know, building their career And sometimes you have to, you know, go on a bit of a contingent goose chase. You have to learn things the hard way. But looking back, what do you think you probably said yes to and allowed compared to what you wouldn't allow now, if you get what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely. I think I probably, you know, fell into the trap. I'm a bit of a people pleaser. Like, I like to help people. So I probably would have fallen into the trap for sure of basically just trying to help any single candidate that came across my desk because I thought, you know what I mean? I just, you know, they might not have even been relevant for my space and, and just, you know, and trying to engage with them. On some level, whether that be a quick phone call or an email or whatever that may be. And then equally, you know, which isn't— it's just not time efficient. Like, you just can't do that. And it's also not managing their expectations either, you know. If I can't help somebody now, I have, like, because I'm so probably time-poor to a certain extent, I have like canned responses in my emails. So I do respond to everyone that comes through to me if I'm for a role or whatever that may be, but I can point them in the right direction, or I'll give them like an immediate response response so that I feel like I can park that and move on to like important tasks. And equally, I would have definitely picked up rubbish briefs because I just would have been like, oh yeah, I'll work that, that's absolutely fine. You know, when you look back and you think, oh my goodness, what, what did I do that for? There was no information there and, you know, no solid brief, didn't agree with the values of the business or anything like that, you know, and how am I ever going to get anyone to work there? And then that's detrimental to everyone involved. So yeah, for sure.

So talk to me about rubbish briefs, because I think we can all learn from that. Like, what did rubbish briefs look like? Was it— you were just an order taker and you're like, yep, yep, no problem. Yep, salary's like nowhere near what it should be, but yeah, no problem, could do that. Like, what did a rubbish brief look like?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I still get the old one-line emails, you know, sent to me, and I push back on them now, you know what I mean? I can't do that, and I'm happy to. But yeah, I guess, yeah, just you know, "Oh, I'm looking for an account manager for my business," and like, what are you meant to do with that? That's no information whatsoever. And then also, equally, if you do get them on the phone and they're not willing to share any information with you, you know, on, on, you know, what's expected in the role, the background of the talent, whether they, you know, do— whether they think outside the box, whether they've got an EVP in place, like, you want to be asking those kind of questions, you know, and you want responses to that because my market is so talent tight that if I get a great talent, I can, you know, I can phone a number of agencies who will then want to interview them. And if I get a rubbish brief, there's just nothing I can do with that. Like, it just— there has to be depth to my brief. So, yeah.

Do you think— is there any advice that you could share for someone that, you know, is in the first couple of years of their career? And, you know, it can be hard sometimes to really lean into that. Being a consultant and not being an order taker, because, you know, you continue to build your confidence, you continue to build your track record. So sometimes you can just feel really grateful that they're giving you that job or you've got that opportunity, but maybe deep down you're like, this is going to be really difficult. But how do I sort of advise them that, you know, this isn't, this isn't realistic, this is going to be really difficult? And I think sometimes as you get more and more experience, that become— you're like more comfortable to do that. Is there anything that you can share that maybe you would have given yourself advice on to help you have less poor briefs? Or like, would you approach it a bit differently? Anything to share there?

Yeah, I would say like, you know, if a client's going to engage with you, you then want to book in like a proper time slot with them. So you want to have a video call or in-person meet. I think that's imperative. And then feel free. Like, I still will sometimes have like mini scripts that, you know, that of certain questions that I want to ask a client. Like, I think it's really important, especially when you're starting off, to almost have that script and just be like, these are the questions I'm going to ask. And, you know, and put some curveballs in there as well. And if the client isn't able to ask all them, then I would question why again. And then also I'd feed back to your client and say, you know, it's brilliant to take this brief, really appreciate the business, but, you know, I'm going to struggle X, Y, and Z in these kind of areas. The market's really competitive. To, but it would be great to go a bit more in depth, you know, have a proper JD, have your EVP, you know, I want— can you look at like, you know, part-time work, increased flexibility for this, like what's going to sell you, what's your culture like, why do you like working there, because, you know, my candidate's got a multitude of offers, you know, or sorry, you know, like areas that they can go into, and why would they choose you above, you know, your competition, and I think also just from that part as well. Like, don't be afraid to phone your clients and keep in contact with them, like, through the resourcing part of it as well, and give them a call or drop them an email saying where, you know, where you might be finding it problematic, and give them feedback on what, you know, what candidates are saying about the brief in the market as well. So I think that's really important. It's hard, like, I get it. It's, you know, when you're starting off in recruitment, it does take a lot to be able to have those conversations, but I think it's really important, you know, for for you moving forward to be able to try to do that.

No, I think that's really helpful and sort of the sort of thing I was hoping you'd share. I guess I'd be— it'd be rude not to ask. Obviously, I don't want to know all the questions on the script, but what would be Charlotte's non-negotiables? So like, if, you know, we're starting this, like the absolute must questions you have to ask if you was helping someone in your team now, these are the non-negotiables that you have to ask for you that you think are the most important. What would they be, do you think?

Yeah, I mean, obviously, you'd want to know, you know, what the role and responsibility looks like, what the structure of the business looks like, what type of person works well in the business, why that person, the hiring manager, works there. You know, everyone's got a pros and cons list when they're about to join somewhere. You know, you can ask questions like, what was on your cons list? What was on your pros list? You know, what they do differently to their competition? You know, who are their clients? You know, what stands out to them, you know, in the market, like, what do they— who are their competitors, you know, where they benchmark themselves. And then the EVP bit for me and for us as a business is massive, you know, like, we want to know, like, you know, what you're doing in terms of training and development, what you're doing in terms of, you know, holiday entitlement, parental leave, working with, like, you know, charity partners, and whether you, you know, whether you support return-to-work parents in your workforce, whether you consider increased flexibility. All of that's really important too.

You know, some great, great things. And obviously, if you do— the thing is, right, if you get all of that right and you get all of that information, it's just going to hugely increase the, hopefully, chances of you being successful, right, and helping that business. And if they're not willing to give you that information, or it's very high level and they're not willing to give you the time to go through it, it's probably, uh, a job that you don't want to be working, or a client that you want to consider saying no to. Look, you know, I have to work this way. Maybe this isn't— yeah, maybe we can't work this way, or like that. Yeah, we need to have that information, right?

Yeah. And yeah, I think that's— I think like the whole thing is about being honest and, and, you know, having that level of trust. And you want to build those kind of relationships that you can look back on and go, look, this is where we started and this where we've got to, and I know your business inside out. And we don't often ask the salary question when we're picking up briefs either, because I suppose when I've been doing it a while, as you know, like, I can, I can tell a client what the market rate is for that role, do you know what I mean? And I'd hope people would be able to get to that stage too as well, rather than having to be dictated by a salary bracket.

Yeah, for sure. So talk to me then about like How, like, how have you become— how have you got really good at just being very, like, focused, diligent with your time? Like, what, what do you now do that's, that's maybe a bit different compared to, you know, maybe 5, 6 years ago or whatever? Because I think we spoke about it, right? There is a lot of power when, like, you're— like, if you have to get a certain task done by certain time there's just more chance that you're going to get it done because at a certain time, rather than knowing that, oh, I can, I can stay later, or I'll just stay a bit later, so yeah, I'll get it done, and then it can sort of get pushed and it can roll over. So how, how have you, you know, how do you now, you know, people always interested in this stuff, Charlotte, like how do you now set up your days? You know, you're working 3 and a half days a week, um, how, how do you now set up your days to really ensure maximum output and efficiency We want to know the day plan and how you prioritize things.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess for me, like, I often get into the office and I feel like I've done a full day at work anyway. But just so— but yeah, no, I think for me it's like, you know, you've got to start your day with really clear goals and clear objectives. And I think we mentioned this on, on the catch-up. Like, I can't— I have my— I have a to-do list every day and I can't not do what's on my to-do list. You know what I mean? I've got a finite amount of time. I need to get it done because I need to leave at a certain time. You know, that's just, that's just how I do it. And, you know, I've got to set boundaries around my work as well. And, you know, my family life, it's— that's really important to me. So I think, you know, having those lists, knowing exactly my timeframe for the day is really vital. And then, you know, as I say, prioritize what you've got going on in the day and tick things off, review it at the end of the day. And I say, yeah, just, just get it done.

Yeah. So it's just, it's just become a non-negotiable for you to get things done.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Has— do you think working more on like a retained basis has helped with you being really efficient and making sure that the time that you are putting in in certain areas, you know, that, you know, you're going to get paid for or there's a much higher chance of you being paid for?

Yeah, absolutely. And I time block a lot as well. So I will time block my day. And so if I've got candidate calls to make or client calls to make, I actually will diarise that and I'll send my candidates the invite as well, because otherwise, you know, you always say, 'I'll call you, I'll call you on Tuesday,' and then it gets to the end of the day, you're like, 'Oh no, I haven't called that candidate back, and I must do that.' So I actually make sure I do that. And yes, working in a retained manner as well, like, I do block off my days that I'm in the office or at home working to working on my retainer roles as well. And then obviously try and turn off notifications on anything else that's going on, whether that be Slack or my phone, etc., as well. And just make sure I haven't got those kind of, um, those disturbances as well.

Yeah, so easy to be distracted and, um, so easy today.

I mean, I don't turn off my calls from daycare though, like I do. I can't do that. I cannot do that. No way.

Yeah, I guess, look, let's just, let's just segue into talking about Retain. Now, I think for a lot of people listening to this, they're always interested to learn and understand how other recruiters navigate and approach business development. How do they get more out of it? What's working for them? So let's just focus on, on this for, um, a little bit. So correct me if I'm wrong, before Creative Natives, how much like retained work did you do?

Barely anything. Nothing.

Yeah. So let's just talk about that for a second because, yeah, you know, a lot of people— so firstly, when I speak to recruiters that are going on that journey, oftentimes one of the biggest barriers can be their mindset. Because Charlotte's got so much evidence of you've always worked a certain way and, you know, you've got the job done, you've done it. So by me then saying, let's now work with this way, you know, that's unnatural for you to do that. And it's like, well, what happens if, you know, I don't feel the job and these things? So what were some of the initial, you know, self-limiting beliefs or the mindset element that you was maybe coming up against wrestling with before you then got consistently good at, you know, selling and selling this solution. So what were some of the initial barriers?

Yeah, I think, as you say, just thinking, well, actually, like, I've been working in this way in a contingent and exclusive manner before, and it's been, it's been fine. It's been good, you know, to a point. And then also coming back to what I said earlier about being a bit of a people pleaser, I was like, well, what am I going to do if, you know, X client calls me and then they don't want to work retained and then I'm letting them down and I can't fill that role and then somebody else is going to get it and this, that, and the other. But I think it's just having, you know, that courage and conviction to know that the service offering that we're providing is so much more consultative and it's going to reap so many rewards for, you know, the client, the candidate, and yourself, that it's just, it's just been a no-brainer for us really. But yeah, I mean, yeah, don't get me wrong. Initially I was like, oh gosh, how's this going to work? How are my clients going to feel about this? You know?

Yeah. So would you mind if we just break this down a bit then? Because I think this would be helpful for people. So like, how, how have you approached, you know, I'm sure it's like evolved and you'll continue to refine it and improve it, but like, what does this sales process, what does this process look like in terms of if, you know, we are talking about working with each other on a retained basis, how do we go about doing that in terms of from firstly from the sales process? Has that been any different? Are you you know, having a call with me and then we're deciding if, you know what, from what I've learned on this call today, I think I want to talk to you about our retain solution because I think that's going to be best suited. So let's book in time to go through what our retain solution consists of. I'm going to put a presentation together for this hiring project. I'm going to walk you through it, etc., etc. You can tell me, but like, what, how, what does this sales process look like and does it look any different to, you know, sell the solution.

Yeah, absolutely, it does look different. And I think you kind of know on a client call whether you, you want to work the role retained anyway, you know, because, um, we'll, we'll get to the end of the call and I'll know that I can— I want to pitch retained for this particular role, and then I would talk to the client around it, you know, give them the understanding. And the, um, it probably will likely be a kind of a client that I've worked with for a period of time as well, to be honest. So it is new, you know, they're not a new client to me, but it's a new way of working with them. So it's all about kind of framing it, I guess, to say, you know, this is how we've been working more recently, and it's having just a magnificent result for our clients, and we've filled every single role in doing so. You know, this is, this is our model. It's a, you know, the way we work is so much more consultative, and we basically Works very, very closely with you. We produce an amazing video for you, which goes across all of our socials. We've got a fantastic in-house videographer who works for us at Creative Natives, and she pulls together a video that's obviously signed off by the client, and then it goes across. The whole team will share that, so it gets millions of views across our LinkedIn and our socials. So that in itself is a massive drawcard for the client. It's part of the process. You know, I explained to them that as part of the process, they get so much more visibility of who we're going to in the market, who we're speaking to. We'll have like a long list and a short list that we will share with them, and, you know, of all the candidates that we've tapped up for the role and spoken to, where they've come from. We have them on a spreadsheet, so it's like who they are, their LinkedIn profile, where they're currently working, whether we've engaged with them or heard back from them, and what they've said about the role. And we'll say to the client, you know, we'll give you feedback on your job description, we'll tell you what the clients' candidates are saying about you in the market. We have a regular check-in with you every kind of 7 to 10 days so that we go through, um, on a video call or a quick phone call, whatever's best for you, and we run through, you know, where we're at with the role. So we don't just kind of leave you high and dry. We've got regular check-ins. And then we actually, as a business, have got these amazing templates that we will then showcase the top, you know, 5 to however many candidates that would be on the on the shortlist to the client in those calls, which is great. And again, kind of then go through the money bit of it, saying that it's a retained model, it's not, no extra cost to you, it's X amount from the, you know, which is then deducted from the final fee. And then we, the good thing is we can, we've got, we have an amazing in-house marketing manager here as well, and she's generated some amazing kind of flyers and, you know, infographics and things around our retained model and how it's sits compared to the contingent and the exclusive model. So you can actually see the differences, you know, they're kind of ticked in green and, you know, all of that, which looks amazing. So again, we'd follow up the call with it all spelled out to the client. So everything's in the body of the email and then the flyers are like attached and then we'll give like examples of like other videos that we've done for other clients and how that's worked.

This podcast is proudly partnered with Vincere, the all-in-one recruitment agency software that over 20,000 recruiters trust daily. We're also partnered with the award-winning 1UP Sales, the sales and motivation platform that enables you to maximize the potential of your teams. We love partnering with both of these organizations because they share our mission in helping you get the most out of your people and your business. You can get exclusive offers because you listen to this podcast and get up to 10% off the usage price forever. Use the link in the show notes to get your hands on that. Let's get back to the episode. All right, cool. Right, let's— so let's just break this, like, so, okay, that's, that's really, really helpful. I was hoping you'd share some of those things. So we've spoken there about— obviously I asked you around the sales process, so it sounds like, it sounds like you're having, you know, the job briefing calls that we spoke about earlier and then depending on what you learn on that call, the client and these things is then going to determine if this is something that you're going to, you know, pitch for retained. Then obviously you then can segue into, look, we've been working this way, however, this is another way for us to be working, this is our track record, um, and these things. I guess just quickly on that, how, how did Charlotte navigate that when you didn't have a track record? You've had a track record in your industry, but do you get what I mean? Like, it's so much easier. Firstly, if you're listening to this and you're not using your track record and your testimonials and your case studies to close new clients, you're missing a trick. And a lot of recruiters don't. They still very much just rely on like, believe me, I can get this job done for you, I'm the best placed person to do it, rather than, you know, having your success story talk for you. But like, how in those first initial approaches how did you find it when you couldn't lean on, we've got, look, we've done these amazing videos for ex-clients like you, we've got this success. How did you navigate that? Just curious.

Yeah, it's a good question. Um, I think we just, we just wanted, we, we pop, we went out to like clients that we potentially hadn't worked with before and just said, this is our way of working, right? And then we, we then reap the, the results through that. And then You know, so we didn't say, yes, of course, this is, this is our statistics, this is what we're doing. And then we moved on to clients that we did have a very good relationship with and said, this is, you know, this is our way of working right now. Let's combine and let's do this together.

And I guess the thinking there is it's just it would have been harder to go to the existing people because they've been used to working a certain way.

Exactly.

Person, oh, this is how Creative Native works. That's like their perception. Okay. So Just quickly then, just to tie this bit together, because you mentioned a few different things there. You mentioned, you know, I really like the idea around the sort of video job spec or the video story around the employer. I really like that. I think that's a great idea and what a, you know, a unique asset to be able to go to the market with whilst also hopefully giving potential employees just even more insight into what it might be like to work there, which can often be really difficult to truly understand in the interview processes and these things. Right. So absolutely love that. Obviously, you mentioned, you know, checking calls. You mentioned like a spreadsheet of visibility of, you know, what people are doing. So just, just to help us out then, you're just talking about there, your asset of this is what our contingent service looks like. This is what our retained service looks like. If me and you decide to start working with each other because I have, you know, 3 PR director roles that I want you to work with me and, you know, I start working with you on a retained basis. Like, what— so what are the fundamental core elements of that process then that makes it more consultative? Could you just— just so I understand that. So is it, okay, from this point, every week we're gonna get— we're gonna have a check-in call, we're gonna get this, this, and this? Would you mind just breaking that down? Because I think that'd be really helpful for people.

Yeah, absolutely. So no, we diarize. Like, it'll be— it'll be your call. So you'd say, yep, Charlotte, I'd love to check in on 3 o'clock every, every Monday morning to see where you're at with the role. So we diarize that, and then I give you a call every Monday to say, okay, listen, this is where we're up to. The video, we, we run like a 2-week video campaign, which to be honest does actually can go further than that as well. So we'll say, you know, the video came out last week, uh, it's had X amount of views across the business. We'll bring those stats into it as well, which is really good. Clients love that, to know how many eyeballs have actually been on it. And then we'll say, okay, we'll, we'll share our screen, we'll run through like a document with you and say, okay, we've reached out to 65 people, here they are, you know, like, you know, and we'll leave you with that. That's your own document to have as well after the call. And then we'll obviously continue to keep adding and amending that. It's a Google Doc. We'll run through who we've already got on the shortlist and then the longlist. And then depending on when— so, so for me in PR, it's a little bit different because if I get a good candidate, I'm more likely to send their profile over with a synopsis straight away to my client because it moves pretty fast.

Sure.

Which I suppose, like, you know, that just is how I have to work on them. But ultimately, what you want to be doing is getting a shortlist of, you know, 3 to 5 people that you then would showcase to you and let, you know, basically in a visual form as well, run through, you know, their backgrounds and why they would be potentially good for the role and things like that. So, it's very visual, but it just is so much more consultative. We get your feedback, you get ours, we tell you maybe tweaks that you might need to make on the JD, why people are saying that they're interested in the role, why they're not, what their feedback's been in market. So you just don't get that in an exclusive or contingent model.

Yeah, so interesting, the visibility piece, isn't it? Like how powerful that is, just being able to— because a lot of those things, let's be honest, you might have been doing those, you might be, you would have been doing those things, but it was just internal to you, and like you would know all that information rather than the client.

Yeah.

So it is, it is interesting, right? Just by flipping on its head and just giving them as, you know, as much visibility as possible really showcasing the work that you're doing. You've got those weekly check-ins, they're bought into it, you're bought into it, you're advising on, look, this is what we keep running into, do you think we should maybe consider tweaking this, changing that? And then you said there's something that's really interesting, and then like the— this data that you're then, you know, curating and collating, they then keep, is that right?

Yeah, yeah. So basically it's like a live document, you know, so we'll— we will continue to work it, you know, and they will be able to see the amends being made, and we can send it, or we can send a new document before catch-up, whatever works best for them. It's all about accountability, isn't it, really, at the end of the day? Like, you're just— that retained piece just makes everyone so much more accountable for filling that role and getting it done.

I guess part of that sell, sell as well is like, look, I'm going to help you, you know, get this person that you need, but also in the medium term, long term, I'm also helping you build a bit of a talent pool here. Or, you know, you're also going to be left with like a whole you know, community of people that have heard about your business, heard about your story, that maybe they can tap into in the future, right?

Yeah.

So just curious then, what's ended up being like— how do I say this— what's ended up being your capacity out of interest? Like, well, I know it varies, but like, what, what have you had? Have you had to learn the hard way of like, how many is too many retained searches on the go at one point? Like, what's ended up being— I know every market is different, but people might be interested. Okay, if I work that way, then how many other jobs could I be working? Because that's the nice thing about contingent, I guess, is like if I get 1 or 2 free candidates that, you know, is the right type of skill set for these 5 different companies and these 5 different jobs that I'm hiring, I can get them into all of those. So how have you found that out of interest in terms of the capacity and how many jobs you can work this way?

Yeah, it's— that's a really good question because I think that was a little bit overwhelming at the start as well. You know, that is probably a mindset piece as well. So at the moment, for example, I'm working, I think, 4 or 5 retained roles, and the rest will be contingent and exclusive roles to us. So yeah, and again, for me, I work 3 and a half days, do you know what I mean? I have the capacity when it comes to retained, you know. So yeah, I think that's, that's a pretty sweet spot for me at the moment, maybe around that kind of 4 to 5 mark. And then obviously it is tricky when it— sometimes when it— when a client of yours— because our clients do call us now and say, how can we get a video out on LinkedIn? Like, what are you doing for those guys that you you know, we want it, we want that, we want a piece of that as well. And then being, you know, having to say, well, listen, I'm at capacity at the moment, but as soon as that role's filled, I'll take you on as a retainer. But I can also in the background, you know, help you look for somebody too. So yeah, yeah.

Okay. No, I love that. So look, going, you know, really granular on job briefings, retained, which has been pretty fundamental in your, um, you know, journey so far. I guess let's talk about something that's absolutely, you know, so important to you in your life, which is family. Like, just, I guess, why don't we start with the conversation? Like, just curious, like, what, what was your experience of going into work knowing that you're gonna have to tell your manager that you're pregnant with your first child? Because, you know, from, from the, you know, I can only speak to my partner and get that perspective, which I know, like, she'd be shit scared to do. Like, she takes her career seriously. Like, yeah, and you know, from the things that I just see online that I consume, I can only imagine how daunting that is because you might be thinking, what's going to happen? Am I just going to be, I don't know, forgotten about? Has all my— is all my hard work just going to be, you know, like all the hard work I put into my career, is that just going to go to grind and stall, uh, stop? So I don't know, why don't we just start the conversation there? Like, what, what was your mindset going into like that initial period of your life? Because I assume it can be quite daunting.

Yeah, it can be like, it is a funny, it's a funny stage to be in. And I was really lucky in my old business, I was really well supported with that conversation. You know, I think, you know, I had the conversation fairly early on and I was really well supported as a business. And in that, in that role as well on the PR and comms desk, I had like, we, I worked in tandem with another person on the desk. So for me it wasn't so much a worry, it was probably more worried that I was leaving her with so much work, you know, on her desk while I was away. And so no, it wasn't, it wasn't it was concerning in as much as how am I going to make this work when I come back? Do you know what I mean? Because ultimately, that's— that was more important. I wanted to go off and really enjoy my maternity leave because, you know, that leave can go so quickly and, you know, you want to just be in the right mindset to enjoy it. But yeah, ultimately, when that conversation had happened, I was well supported through the business and, you know, and came back in a part-time capacity then as well, actually. So I think I worked 4 days then.

So how long, how long did you have off?

I had just a year, just under a year for the first maternity leave.

Yeah. Okay, so, so what, what was the strategy coming back then, like when you were starting to come back? So because a year is, is a long time to be away from like recruitment, your recruitment desk, or these things, a lot can change, right? So I understand why that maybe you'd be thinking more about that, how's it going to work when I get back, this is going to be, you know, have a no, now another human being to be taken care of while I don't just have my career and myself and my partner wanted to think about. So talk to us a bit about, yeah, so what was the approach coming back then? You mentioned there part-time, but what did a normal working week look like when Charlotte had her firstborn then?

You were returning to work? Yeah, it was pretty hectic to begin with. I remember I used to have to walk, I had to walk miles to daycare because we didn't have two cars at the time. I'd get into work a bit, yeah, I'd get into work a bit flustered. And then obviously, like, my hours were a little bit reduced as well. So I'd work, I think, 9:00, 9:30 till about 4:00, 4:30, and then do pick-up as well. I mean, I was super fit, but, um, because of all the walking. But, um, but yeah, no, I, I tried again, just, just try and set boundaries, you know, like as we said, like my home life's really important to me, so I knew I wanted to come back in a part-time capacity, but also then not take too much away from this market and the base that I built up for myself, you know. It's something that I'm really proud of, and I wanted to come back and give it my all because there's ultimately other people now relying on me as well. So fortunately, I was in a good position because my colleague had been keeping things ticking over for me. So I guess it was all about that re-engagement piece with my clients and my candidates. So coming back in, reaching back out to them, getting meetings, you know, it's actually quite a nice soft in because you've got that, you know, you've got that story to tell and you can pick up a phone and, you know, and speak to somebody after a year and it's— they want to hear from you because they want to hear how you've been doing. So it was actually quite a nice in. So yeah, that's, that's kind of how I started off, flustered and making phone calls.

What was, what was most challenging about that first time that maybe you least expected, do you think?

I think probably the feeling of the vulnerability, like I didn't, you know, that whole imposter syndrome, like coming back after being a mum and just solely focusing on that for, for a year, basically, like, what am I going to talk about? You know, like, what have I forgotten everything? You know what I mean? I don't even know how to use a laptop. Like, I can't even remember, you know, if I've had a coffee that morning. That kind of stuff I think really hit me quite hard. And then also, like, just, you know, I really missed my little one terribly. It was, it was, it was hard. Like, it is a, it is a big adjustment. I can, you know, you're constantly checking your phone to check that they're getting on all right at daycare. You know, you're basically like leaving your most prized possession in with somebody that, you know, you don't really know too well at that point, you know. So it's a lot. You're dealing with a lot of emotions and, you know, all of that's running through your head and then you're trying to focus on, on your work at the same time and being something to your work colleagues and your clients and candidates, but then also like your heart is elsewhere. So that was tricky, really tricky.

Did you feel guilty?

Yeah, of course. Mum guilt is the worst.

What did you feel guilty, really? What did you feel guilty for?

Oh, just that I wasn't with her, you know, and I wanted to be with her. And, you know, ultimately I know why I'm working and I really enjoy work. And people would say to me, oh, but you know, you get to have a coffee in peace and you get to like, you know, not have a nappy bag on your back and all that stuff. And I was like, well, that's— yeah, I really like— I like all that, you know. So it's, it's just having— it's just, you know, but it takes a while to find that balance. And it's something I'm really passionate about. Like, you can see it in return-to-work parents. You can see it in their faces when they're coming into an office and their head's elsewhere, their heart's elsewhere. Like, it's, it's a very vulnerable time. So yeah, it, yeah, it needs to be acknowledged and supported. And I was lucky enough, I was in an office and in a company that really did support that, but it is a very tricky time to navigate.

Yeah, like, I'll just be curious to understand how you think recruitment companies can, you know, intentionally create an environment where it does make people returning parents feel like the way that you felt like, because that, you know, that's, that's amazing that you've felt that way, but a lot of people like aren't, um, no don't end up feeling that way, right? Either, you know, from some of the conversations that I've had, it could be leading up to, you know, letting them know that you want to go into maternity and you've got your first child on the way, like, and to then, I don't know, almost feel like, okay, well, she's done then, like, probably not going to come back or be as successful as she was now. So like straight away, you know, if things have been made difficult for them, and then likewise when they're coming back. Like, I think ages ago I did a whole week on women in recruitment, and there was some real, you know, horror stories for women who were returning to work, and they had their contract book just given to someone else and shit like that. So, you know, how do you think people can be, um, you know, better at making— is there anything that you found? Because I'm sure you advise this too, you know, in your world, um, particularly if a lot of the recruitment companies are being run by men where, you know, we're we can not be aware of like what could help people, do you know what I mean? Because we're not going to truly go through that and really maybe truly experience the things that you feel, or it'll be different. So is there anything that you found yourself consistently advising people on to make that environment hopefully then conducive with, you know, having returning, um, parents say, you know what, actually they were really great and they're supportive?

Yeah, yeah, there's a number of things actually. Like you hear quite often about businesses who, when somebody's on maternity leave, they'll have like keeping keeping in touch days. So they're like, you know, I think they're called kit days in the UK, certainly, that, you know, you can take them or leave them. I actually probably think I probably wouldn't have wanted them. I, you know, I was quite happy to just have my head down and being a mum, I love it. But, you know, for those big kind of like days or off-sites or like, you know, big kind of team announcements and things like that, you know, the employee, the parent is asked to come in if they'd like to, and they're paid for those keeping in touch days, like things like a really great initiative to offer, just to at least offer somebody that's, you know, on maternity leave to just prove that they haven't been forgotten about, like they're still important to the business. Like, I think that's imperative as well. And then also, you know, like, just, you know, we have— I had orientation with my little girl going into daycare. It's almost like you, you kind of need that coming back into the workforce as well, you know. Like, it's a stark reality when you walk in that door and you're like, oh my God, I've got to be here for like, you know, 7, 8 hours or whatever it is. So I think orientation day is like easing yourself back in. I know Ryan, because I've come back— when I joined Creative Natives, I was off the back of my second maternity leave, and Ryan had said to me, my director here, like, you know, come back in one day a week if that's easier for you. Like, ease yourself back in. It doesn't need to be like all straight in for, you know, your whole kind of weekly loads. I think that's really important. And then also just having like a, like a setup. And I know this isn't always going to like work for some companies, but like like, for example, here in our office we've got like a baby changing room and somewhere you can go and express if you're still breastfeeding and like storage for, for milk and things like that. It's really important. It just makes you feel like you're actually acknowledged. Like, I, you know, I came back and I was still breastfeeding. That stuff's really important. That was really important to me. Um, and then also just, yeah, the things that guys wouldn't fucking think about.

That's just the truth.

No, of course not. Of course. Yeah, I mean, I was terrified. I was terrified was just going to, like, use my breast milk in their cup of coffee. So I was like, imagine, imagine some Sorey Hills hipster around here.

Crazy story around, like, yeah, just, you know, oh, can you make me a tea? And it's like, yeah, I'll use this milk. I was hoping that's all right. But that's awesome. Yes, those types of things, right?

Yeah, yeah, they're really good initiatives. And then also just like, you know, having colleagues that understand, you know, whether they're like parents themselves. And, you know, they can see it in your face when you might need to take a break or have a walk around the block. And then equally, you know, colleagues that maybe don't have children or don't have a family, just to be like, you know what, I'm, you know, I'm going to take that person out for a coffee or for a wine or something like that, just to kind of like have a general chat with them. Because, you know, you just don't know, you know, you know what a daily struggle is like for somebody just coming straight back into a business after having a baby.

So, yeah, as you said, you went through you, uh, you know, you then brought another human being into the world, family of four. What do you do maybe different? Like, is there anything that maybe you approach a bit differently? Because, you know, I mean, when I have, you know, when we have children, hopefully like the first time you're gonna be like, what the fuck is going on? I have no clue what we're doing. And then I feel like the second time you may not feel like an expert, be like, right, there's some— this is common ground, we've been here before. So like the second time round, was there anything you did differently that you've, you know, found maybe helped that you didn't think of the first time, whether that be, you know, leading up to going on to maternity leave, whether it be returning back?

Yeah, yeah, I think, well, obviously I returned like leading up to my maternity leave. I actually, it was like right bang in the middle of like just when COVID had happened. So for me, I was working from home anyway, and I obviously then realized that flexibility-wise I could actually achieve quite a lot. So for me, coming back into a role, I knew that I probably needed more flexibility for my family. Like, I think I was doing 3 days a week in the office and 1 from home when I first went back after my first child. And then now I do like 1.5 days at home, 2 in the office, but it's very flexible. I could do less than that if I wanted. And I, you know, I guess coming back, I was probably a lot kinder to myself and, and, you know, you know, and recognize those signs when I was starting to feel concerned or anxious and needed to kind of like, you know, check in and check that the children were okay. And, you know, or give myself like a bit of a break if I was like feeling like I was anxious or rushing to one appointment to another. You know, it's just, I think it's a mindset thing as well and just feeling supported in that mindset, which I ultimately do here.

And how, like, how would you compare Charlotte and the energy that you put into your career and how you approach work compared to then Charlotte, who's also a mum but is also, you know, building and growing her career? Like, what would you say the main difference is?

Yeah, I think, well, my priority— like, I'm— my priorities have completely changed, you know. I'm, as I said to you before, I'm doing it for my family now, so it's, it's almost made me up my game, you know. And I was never, I was never not competitive with myself in the first place, but I think I think, you know, that's probably made me even more so. Um, but I— and again, from like a boundaries point of view, you know, I am, I am very strict with my boundaries. I think we talked about, you know, I don't work on Fridays, but I, you know, I will check my emails and, and things like that occasionally. But the Charlotte of old would have just, you know, worked, worked till late, you know, checked her emails, been up at the crack of dawn checking them as well, not being very present. Whereas I'm fine that I have to be very present. I'm present in my work life and I'm present when I'm at home with the family too.

Then I guess just final thing then, how did you have like a community of other women that had been on a similar journey? Was that helpful? Have you sort of then ended up finding that, building that for yourself? How important is that?

Yeah, no, it is. And I have friends obviously outside of work that were on my kind of like parental leave journey with me. And then I've also got a couple of really good friends within Creative Natives that are You know, Lils, who I work with here, is a return-to-work parent. In fact, our children are very similar ages, so we lean on each other tremendously. You know, we get into the office in the morning and have the, have the kind of mum chat, which poor Holly has to deal with. But, but then we get that out of the way, you know, and we can constantly keep checking in with each other through the day and things like that. It's really important to have that community. Like, you know, I don't— I'm from the UK, but I don't have— we don't have our family here. So for me, finding that community, whether that be external or internal to work, is really important.

I bet. Well, look, Charlie— uh, Charlie? Charlotte. Thank you.

Only my dad calls me Charlie.

Sorry. Um, look, honestly, thank you so much sharing all that. I know that'd be helpful for so many people. Like, why I always try and encourage people like yourself to come on the podcast is because there'll be a lot of people listening to this that don't have role models and people to point to in their business to say, oh, I can build a successful recruitment career whilst also building a family, which is really important to me. I I think the more people, you know, who can, you know, point at that and have more evidence to go, no, that is possible, um, the better I feel. Or at least hopefully it might make people feel less anxious about it and less worried about it. Um, because, you know, I don't think it— it's very— it must be really tough to feel like— because I have these conversations with my partner where it's like, it's like career or like family, or it's like when I do then choose the fam— like when I'm building a family it's not like, yeah, career's over for like however many years. Um, so yeah, I want to say, yeah, kudos to you. Thank you so much for, you know, sharing your journeys of that, as well as, you know, the wisdom on, you know, the retained and, and how you've, you know, continued to get better as a recruiter. But thank you so much for joining me on the pod.

You're welcome. Thanks so much for having me.