James Blackwell Virtual assistants, unfair advantages and creating a business that gives you freedom

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm really excited to finally be joined by James Blackwell, who is the CEO of a recruitment business called Ronald James Group, and they are the leading digital and tech recruitment business that are based in the Northeast, and they have 13 staff currently. He's built this business into a 7-figure business in 4 years. And James, you're a young recruitment entrepreneur, so I'm excited to have you on here. We've been speaking a little while, good to finally have you on. How are you?

I'm very well, Hishem. Thanks very much for inviting me on.

And I'll be honest, how many recruitment business owners or recruiters have I had on that are from your part of the world? I actually think you might be the first.

Really? Yeah, I think so.

Typically, before obviously all this went on, I would definitely prefer doing them face to face. So I would find myself quite often in Manchester or Birmingham, Bristol, but never quite made it up to Newcastle. So I'm excited.

You've saved a journey anyway.

Yeah, exactly. So look, as I said, James, where I always love to start on this podcast is how did James Blackwell enter the lovely world of recruitment? How did that happen?

Yeah, I suppose same one-liners everyone else fell into recruitment.

Yeah.

I had my own coffee shop when I was 21, had that for 2 years and built that up quite successfully until the initial recession came in 2008 and I got out of that and then I got offered a job at BMW to sell cars and I really learned my trade from there for 5 years selling BMWs and Minis and then I just got an opportunity through my sister at the time's ex-boyfriend was working in recruitment and I didn't realize how much money you could be be made in recruitment and I didn't realize that it was a sales job. Where in recruitment it is the ultimate sales job. So yeah, I started out at a company called Nigel Frank Group and I literally took a big leap because I was 27, 28 at the time and an okay money as a car salesman and I had to take a drop back down. I think at the time it was like 15K basic salary, no commission.

Because the basic salary isn't typically good as a car salesperson though, isn't it? But you can, I'm assuming you can build that up.

It was bad as a car salesman, but you were always going to do 15 to 20 cars a month. So you always—

yeah, especially when you've been there for a while, you know, and expect what you're going to be doing on a monthly basis. So it was a leap, and in your head, quite, you know, that typical conversation of you've got to take a step back to take a step forward and all of that. So you was 27, 28 at the time. Just quickly then, so just to frame up for everyone and give everyone context, so then you then worked at another francophone, it was like 5 years, wasn't that? I saw LinkedIn, and then after that you then obviously set up and started Ronald James, which has been going for 4 and a bit years now. Just quickly, how and why did you, did you open a coffee shop? Like, I have to ask that. Okay, yeah, let's just start there quick because I think that's going to be interesting, the fact that you had that experience early on, which I'm sure gave you some lessons that have helped with Ronald James.

Of course it did, yes. I mean, I was always entrepreneurial as a kid, selling sweets pop snacks and stuff. Same story as most entrepreneurs, I suppose. And then I got into car auctions and I bought my first car when I was 17, when I passed my test. I bought it for like £350 and I put it on the drive for £795 and sold it within a day. And I got the bug of buying and selling. So I started buying and selling cars and I built up a good amount of money. I think it was about £10,000, £15,000. I got this opportunity to help run a coffee shop and take it over. So that's how I got into—

Where did this entrepreneurial mindset, like, where did that come from? Because that's not a typical— I know, see, you hear that a lot from entrepreneurs, I was selling stuff, blah blah blah, and I had a bit of that, but I definitely didn't have as— like, didn't go through, do things like that that you said. But like, where did that come from? What environment were you brought up in?

Good point. I think German middle-class environment, but my dad was like a salesperson. He always wore a suit and a suitcase and used to take me into work sometimes. And he used to take me to the car auction sometimes as well. And it was funny because I had an opportunity. I played like semi-pro level as a footballer. So I was always competitive. My passion was like, even when I was younger, I wanted to be a businessman. Like I was always dressing up in a suit and I love business. So I think that's where it stemmed from. Like, my dad growing up and being surrounded by business, like, I was, uh, always had a passion to buy and sell as well.

What are your friends like? What, at that age? Yeah, like that age, because, like, do you know what I mean? Sometimes I remember back in my, um, like, thinking of the people in my growing up, like, you can sometimes alienate yourself when you become, like, really focused on, like, work or business or buying and selling stuff. Rather than the typical thing. So I guess, was there any influence in your friends? Like, did you have an interesting friendship group?

Yeah, it's a good point. I think I've transitioned as most people do when they grow up. You have different eras of friends, I would say.

Yeah.

And as the famous Jim Rohn always says, you are the average of the 5 people you hang around with. So I wouldn't say back then I was ultra-focused. And I think that's what was one of the biggest learning curves for me, especially with the coffee shop, was I wasn't into personal growth at the time. I wasn't into personal development. And I'd surrounded myself probably with the wrong people. I was still young, partying, doing everything that everyone else does, go to Ibiza, whatever, like everyone else does. Back then you were a bit stupid and crazy. So now I learned from that mistake in terms of be careful who you surround yourself with. So as I've grown, I've got different friend and peer groups now. So a lot of the friends that I've got now, I've got maybe 2 or 3 core friends and then the rest of people that I've even met through business who are either millionaires. I've met some billionaires and I've surrounded myself with different people with different mindsets. Okay. My standards are always high.

Yeah.

And that's not just business success, but are they successful personally? Have they got philosophy, wisdom around them? Have they got good morals? All of those types of things. I'm always evaluating who I hang around with.

Okay, cool. I'm just curious there because I think late teens, early 20-year-old buying and selling cars, It's just interesting, right? I absolutely love that. So I guess, what was your perception of recruitment when you got in recruitment then? Sort of like, did you have any perception of it at all? Obviously you didn't recognize it as like a quote-unquote proper sales job. What was your perception of recruitment?

Yeah, it was quite hard at first to get your head around it. So it's got to click at some point. Like when we used to hire recruiters as I started being a team leader manager, like it's got to click in the first few weeks. If it doesn't, it's probably not, that ball's not going to drop. But it did take a while to understand if you're trying to create something from nothing and you're trying to deal with people's emotions to try and create an opportunity for them and trying to create the opportunity with the client as well. It took a few weeks, but then once it clicks, like you do really get it. But it's simple as obviously you get a candidate and client, you match them together. But in reality, when you're actually doing it, you need to understand it first and speak to the market and understand following the scripts was a big thing for me as well. Like that gave you a pivot and an anchor to actually follow just a process and then things start dripping in and falling into place. I understand why I ask those questions now. I understand it's not just about getting the candidate and putting them into a company. You have to understand the why and the reason behind it. There's a lot of complexities to when you peel it back of like how you actually make a placement.

Okay.

So yeah.

Okay. And so I definitely want to really focus on sort of James, the recruitment business owner, but obviously let's just think about your time at Nigel Frank. Was you a permanent contract recruiter or what was the— what type? Did you recruit permanent positions or was it both or?

Yeah, I was all permanent.

So what market did you recruit in at that time?

Did like it, like Microsoft type of recruitment, which is what Nigel Frank was renowned for. So it was really niche sector specific where you got a territory in a region and you couldn't really go outside of that location. And then you've got a bundle of candidates in a CRM. That was back when LinkedIn was just sort of coming into play, but it was pretty much like 80% of the placements were made of CRM systems and job adverts. Because I used to remember, I used to have to come in at 7 AM, I was fighting with everyone else to get on the job boards and get your candidates beforehand. Because there's maybe 1, 2 decent candidates a day that you would probably get. Yeah. So back then it was good. And I think that was a really good learning curve because recruiters now have got all of the luxury, like my team have got everything from LinkedIn Recruiter, email finders, video recording software. I've got virtual assistants that are booking calls for them. Obviously we've got loads of retained clients. Like the job now as a recruiter is, is a lot different to what it was back then. So, yeah.

So, so your sort of career at Nigel Frank was the typical join there as a trainee or consultant and then you became a manager, leader. And by the time you left, you was a manager. From what I can see online. Okay. So obviously they're a big agency, right? A lot of people to compete with. Why did James rise to— why did James become a leader in that organization?

At Nigel Frank, it was a good culture. I mean, they really nailed the culture back then. So it was like a cult, as it were, but you were literally like, you were just absorbed into what what they do there. And I don't know, I think it was just a case, I think I was like top 3 biller for EMEA, like, and I was just really driven. It was great wearing a suit, feeling special in that city. And yeah, I suppose like hard work, like, not gonna lie, like you were in 7, I was in 7, 8 o'clock, and I was leaving at 7, 8 o'clock at night. So you put a lot of time and effort into it, for sure. And So it's not for the faint-hearted back then, but you did get rewarded well, like they paid well, they looked after the good employees, you got great incentives. So back then, like at any one age, 27, 28, it was probably the best job you could ever get in the northeast of England for sure. There wasn't many others that were earning what you could earn as a recruiter.

Okay. Any other sort of, in hindsight looking back, like anything else? Because look, a lot of people that listen to this podcast they're people that want to be the best version of themselves, want to be at the top, right? So I guess what I'm just sort of prodding a bit here is that, particularly in a big brand like Nigel Frank, like there's, like you could very easily be someone in the middle of the table, right? So to be sort of the top 3 there. So you've already said work ethic, hard work, which comes up a lot and is so important. So I guess in hindsight, before we talk about you starting your own business, like anything else you think that really contributed or enabled you to be in that top 3 spot, do you think that is worth highlighting?

I would probably just say mindset. So that's when I started getting into a bit of personal development, listening to podcasts on the way to work. One of the first audiobooks I listened to was Think and Grow Rich. Yeah. So yeah, like really Why? Because I think it was just a case of like, I was, I just wanted to be the best. So, and I think I had a group of like friends within there that were all at a similar level. So we were always battling and we used to have little bets on who would be the top biller for the month, have banter across the office. And I was always like ego-driven and obviously competitive from my nature with football. Like I wanted to win. So it's always about being the best, who billed the most. I love the pressure on my shoulders, just like people doing football, I would always be the one that wanted to step up, take the final minute penalty and all of that type of stuff. You can translate into recruitment. And I think that's probably what came out was the fact of my inner competitiveness to win. And to always keep improving, like always being, like you said, the best version of myself. Like I wanted to give everything. So there's no like tip, trick or hack. Like it is just, it is mindset. And yeah, Being able to, because there was hard workers, like even in that agency, there's harder workers than me. But you've got to be street smart. I think I was lucky that I had the buying and selling of cars experience. That was different because I was probably one of the only people back then that they hired without a degree. So 9 to 5 were very, very picky. And they would normally interview 10 and hire 1. And literally, if you had no degree, the chances of you getting hired were very, very slim. So back then I knew I had a point to prove and like, I sort of fought against all of these people that were sort of elite or they've had a degree and everything else. Like I had a point to prove and I think that's what worked for me.

Okay. So what gave you the confidence to start your own recruitment business then? What, why did you, yeah, where did that come from and why did you decide to do that? Yeah.

So like, I mean, I was really happy back then where I was and obviously the business was going well. I got shares in the business that obviously was going to be six figures. I think we were going to get paid out on a takeover, but I started to get into personal development. I started to follow the likes of Grant Cardone, I remember, and all of the other influencers and that entrepreneurial bug came back. It was suppressed probably when I was there a little bit, cause I was just so focused and, you know, in terms of the work and just doing, doing, doing. That's when I started really reflecting and working on myself and realizing that if I am ever going to be what I want to be, a multimillionaire, like there's not many millionaires that make a million working for somebody else. There is, there's a small percentage, but, and I like the freedom. Like I was, I got to a point there where I was 5 years in, I was a bit stressed. I went through like a bit of anxiety and everything else because the world I created and the person I'd created wasn't me. So I changed as a person and I probably didn't— I wasn't the nice type of person, maybe as nice as what I am now. Like, I changed.

Well, you're just like the typical top-billing knobhead.

Probably, yeah. Typical Wolf of Wall Street.

Yeah. And I think it's really interesting because like when you're 5 years in and as you said, you've like that's the person that you've been to get to the top and that's been rewarded, blah, blah, blah, that you then carry that with you. And it's, it's hard, like it's hard for you not to be that, right? Or like for you to carry that pressure on yourself. So that's interesting. Fair enough. What was there a particular moment then where you were like, right, like, let, I'm going to start my own recruitment business or, cause like just quickly, do you, you started Ronald James on your own?

Yeah. So like, probably for 6 months or so it was going on in my head. I had friends that would go out on lunch and talk around like, should we leave and set up on our own? Back then there was no mentorship guidance. There was no course, there's no structure on how you actually do it. So it was like a lot of unknown and fear is probably the biggest thing that holds most people back as we know. So it's fighting through the fear. Cause I remember back then we were looking into, I was looking into how much would it cost to do a website? And I was thinking it was like £20,000. It's not like I built a website. But then you think, oh well, you need loads of money to start a business.

Yeah, it's crazy because like, what year was that?

That was like, uh, 2015.

It's crazy that there wasn't like, compared to like the amount of content now and like this podcast and all the other things, like it's crazy how much that's come on. But you're completely right, I completely understand that like having access to that sort of information just simply didn't exist, which is crazy, isn't it? Because you just wouldn't think that's the case right now.

Yeah, well, now there's tons, I mean, great podcasts that you do, Hishem, and there's loads out there. I think back then, I mean, I remember when I first started, I did a podcast with Roy Ripper. That was the only thing that I knew about recruitment. That was the only thing online that was talking about recruitment.

Crazy.

Like if you Googled how to set up a recruitment business, there was pretty much nothing. And remember back then you were relying on the brand and the data. The CRM system was key.

Yeah, that was like a big selling point, wasn't it? It was like, look, we've got 100,000 people such and such on our database. That was like part of the pitch. Yeah. So what, what ended up being the game plan then? So there wasn't many people that you could pick their brain. There wasn't content you could access. What ended up being the sort of game plan? Because I think as you just said, like quite rightly, people taking the leap, people being paralyzed by the fear of what that first year is going to look like. Are they going to be as successful on their own or out of the ecosystem that they've been used to? What ended up being the game plan for that first year?

Yeah, so it was like a lot of personal development. So just trying to read, I read a book a week. I was reading a lot around business fundamentals and how to start a business. And then I had a plan, what I thought would be a plan was picking a market that was similar to what Nigel Frank did, but in Salesforce, because I thought, oh well, in theory, they've got a great Salesforce team, I'll just do Salesforce recruitment, but It really doesn't work like that because you need to have a clear way of how you would map out a market and build out a niche with a proper structure.

Okay.

So like, cause like a niche vertical will have like various different gradients within it. So yes, you could like have a specific group of high clients and candidates within a niche that someone else is successful with, but that doesn't mean that you can just step in there and be really successful yourself. So like the first, that was probably a mistake. Like we—

How long did you focus on Salesforce for?

Probably like 3, 4 weeks. And then we just got, obviously I was based in the Northeast. We got talking to, and I just networked, like I hustled and just went to loads of business events, networked, pulled it, like we pulled an it developer job and we worked that, it worked. And then all of a sudden we just fell into like the Northeast tech market, which was up and coming at the time. And that's a very similar story to how Sean and Nigel started Nigel Frank. Like they didn't aim to do Microsoft Dynamics. They were doing something totally different.

Really?

Just fell into it.

I think something that's really stuck with me is where you start isn't where you finish. And I think that's so important to realize that you might have in your head where you want to be, but just like, cause right now what you're starting and what you're doing isn't like, do you know what I mean? Which is pretty much what you just said. And I think it's so important to remember that if you're starting your own business or just in, just in general. Okay. So a couple of weeks then recognize that. So then just quite organically for you hustling, meeting people, you ended up falling into or focusing on and working with Northeast tech businesses.

I think like the reason I started the business was like, I wanted more freedom because I didn't want to work italiate anymore. I've done that for 5 years solid, like you just get burnt out. Like most recruiters get burnt out doing that. It's not sustainable, like long term, like it's not good for your health at all. There's definitely a better way. So freedom, I wanted more money because I was restricted. You're always restricted to the amount of deals that you can do in a month and how much you can make at that place. So, and then lifestyle, because I wanted to be all I can be. The only way I can do that, express that, is to have full control over my destiny. And then the more time I spent on myself and outside of the business in a flow state, the faster, like, suddenly my business grew. So I was like, get my starting conditions right. So things like personality profiling and testing. So I recommend everyone to try like Myers-Briggs test, Myers-Briggs. So it's like, I think, 16personalities.com. To actually understand how you work, how you think, how you operate, because you want to get the starting conditions right when you start the business. Otherwise, you'll end up building a business that you truly hate because you want to be fulfilled in what you actually do. So it's really important to actually understand yourself first before you just suddenly steam in and set up a business that all of a sudden— like, a lot of business owners have got a job now that they actually hate.

And a lot of people get asked, they don't enjoy business anymore.

And I was really, really tough on that right from the start. And a lot of people will tell you that, like, I was all about Lifestyle and the business serves me. I do not serve the business. Like, that was the starting conditions from day one. Yes, I still put in the hustle and the hard work to get it to where it was. But after that time, once the business is making profit, I'm taking my 6 holidays a year. I'm working smart. I'm doing the things I enjoy. I've got a set week on how I actually manage my week. Like, the client doesn't dictate when I should Yeah.

So you was mindful of that straight away. Yeah.

And that really helped because, but it takes time. Yeah. So like if skyscrapers are built on individual bricks, so it's like, learn each new brick is a single job. So once you have to like build a client acquisition system, how can we get that fulfilled? So that then it's all about talking around having systems within your business. And it was a big systems thing. Can we leverage technology, tools, marketing? To make sure this business can either run without me and everything's systemized. Otherwise, it'll start to get broken as well. Because you're already dealing with people, which is recruiters, and you can't systemize a recruiter. But everything else in the business, it's important because you have to break it down into bite-sized chunks and make sure that you've built each pillar and each part of the system correctly.

I'm keen to dive into that because I think, because I think a lot of people that either own a business of your size or yeah, in those sorts of environments will think that there's no way that I could step away from the business, right? Or it could run, right? So I'm interested to break that down, but what I'm always keen to sort of get your thoughts, learnings, and experiences from is that first year in sort of James running his own recruitment business. So you said that quite early on you ended up sort of adapting and pivoting. Like, what, how, how, how did the end of the first year look like? What went on in that first year?

Yeah, it was interesting because I still remember to this day, the first week or two or three weeks was really hard when I was like, I remember being in a coffee shop and I think it was Costa when my girlfriend was at work.

How old was you at that point? Sorry to butt in.

28 or 29. 29.

Yeah.

And I was like, wow, this is tough. Like you starting off with no database, no structure. LinkedIn's quite new then. I didn't have a template or blueprint to follow in terms of how do I actually win clients apart from the old way of cold calling, chasing leads, all of that. I was like, fuck, this is going to be hard. And then I started learning and started studying all of the greats, like from different sectors and different environments, not recruitment. And then I worked out like a way of how to properly map out my market, how to have a structure and how to build a niche within a niche. Like I started to know, like once we started doing a couple of placements, I realized that if we can nail down on one location in one key market with like 2 to 3 job titles max, like we could really drill down on that because I knew that was a growing market and trend. So that's when we really doubled down. But the first year I started off and then—

Was it just you? You said we there.

Yeah, me and my younger brother. So he was like, what, 18, something 18 at the time. He left with no qualification from school. He was just at home. And obviously sort of started on a kitchen table and I was like, look, why don't you join me? And I just literally trained him up on the candidate side. So I gave him the script. I just went out and hustled and met as many entrepreneurs and other business owners as possible. So I set up like an email automation campaign and a reach-out strategy to meet as many potential clients as possible just for a chat for 20 minutes. And then I just really like, hustled myself and a lot of people gave me the opportunity and started giving me jobs. And then me and my brother would work on the jobs. But like I said, starting conditions from the start, I hated dealing with the candidate side, no disrespect to candidates. I've done it for 5 years, loads of deals, I was like, I'm not doing that anymore. What I love doing is going out, selling, pitching, winning clients' business and then handing off. So I just focused that time on training my brother up to be an outstanding sourcer and closer of candidates. So I'd help him with the closing process. So we actually built like a good environment where I'd win all of the clients and really build that out and be the face of the business. And he was there just really, he really adapted to like LinkedIn, finding the right candidates, knowing how to spot a good candidate for a job. And then it was just me and him first. We did about, I think it was £330,000 per fees.

What, in the first year? Just you two? Yeah.

So that was a lot of money at the time. Like if you think about it.

Yeah. Jesus. Yeah.

Like 60, 70K at, um, yeah, and you're doing that from—

so just, just quickly, um, what, what sort of came up, uh, for me when you're talking about that? I think, like, what, what was the pitch or what was the story that you said to these Northeast business owners that made them sort of give you a chance? Because that's because I think a lot of people when they're starting out either starting a brand new desk or starting their own recruitment business, like, I think a lot of people can find that quite challenging, can't they? Especially like you've done, you've ended up doing a market that you quite haven't done before because you recognise an opportunity. Like, a lot of people may think, no, I've got recruitment, but I don't know the market. Like, how are they going to react to it? I don't know, like, what was the story? What was the pitch that ended up working well or that made these businesses give you a chance?

Yeah, it's a good point because it's like the people I reached out to were business owners and founders themselves. So I was reaching out as a young, hungry entrepreneur that just needed a chance. Now, that's not all what it takes. Like, success is not to be pursued. It's like, it's to be attracted by the person you want to become. So what got me as a good recruiter, Nigel Frank, was not going to get me to doing 6, 7 figures being a business owner. Like I had to fully change as a person.

It's different. Yeah.

Because I had to attract the type of people that I wanted as clients. So if I was just going as another recruiter, that end user client, that entrepreneur that set up his own business, he wouldn't be interested. So I needed to raise my game. So that was knowledge. So knowledge is power. So like reading books about the billionaires and millionaires, going to masterminds, events, surrounding myself with other people in networking and pushing myself outside the comfort zone because then I could speak their language. And be interested in them and actually give value back. So a lot of people like ask, well, how do I get a mentor? It's like, you've got to give value to them as well. Like, do they want to speak to you? Can you provide value back? So in that market, it wasn't just, did I know about the tech? It was, I knew a lot about business and I could, I used to give people cool hacks on LinkedIn automation, email marketing automation. I would always be trying to help that customer and client as well as say, can I help you?

Do you know what we do? Do you know how we can help? Yeah.

Yeah, so that's what was probably the biggest thing was like, I'm not going out there, can I have a job? Yes, I asked, but I also provided value and I think this helped.

Because I think part of that fear or that is that like sort of how to communicate where you are as a business, do you know what I mean? Do I be honest? Do I say that it's me and my younger brother at my kitchen table just hustling? Do you know what I mean? Because that's part of it as well that you've got to deal with it, isn't it? It's like So I get what you're saying. I love that. But I think that's also part of it, isn't it?

Of course it is. And perception is reality. Yeah. So one of my old mentors, Dan Peña, $50 billion man, if you look him up on YouTube, he says practice success before you're successful. So go to the Rolls-Royce garage.

Yeah.

Feel the leather. Sit in the car. Like I did a YouTube video on my YouTube channel, James Blackwell, if you check it out, where I was having a Ferrari for a couple of days there, which I swapped for a Porsche with a friend. And it was like, you just want to surround yourself with these things so you can attract them more. But it's also perception is reality. So my business, I would never go to a client and say, it's just me. I would say, I've got a team. Now that team is one and a couple of VAs. But that team could be perception of being 15, 20. So when you start up, like I always like try to perceive ourselves as the leading. So if you see like our tagline for Ronald James is the Northeast's leading digital and tech recruitment agency. I did that ballsy, like right from year one when I had loads of other competitors bigger than me. But leading is leading. Like it doesn't say you're the number one best. You just, I own that because no one else went out to do that. So that gave a perception already, oh well, they are the leading. And it came synonymous because the more we kept advertising it and pushing out on social media and LinkedIn, then it just became real. And now it is real because there's no one else that can touch us in the Northeast. So it's always about practicing success before you're really successful. And perception is reality. So you're not lying as such, but you can— it's the way you word things and you get people to perceive things.

Yeah. Because I think that's the thing is like, is that lying? Do you know what I mean? I get it. But yeah. Okay. So—

Being honest, like I was always honest with, look, like, we are a startup, but we can deliver. Like, the thing is, can you deliver to that customer? Do they know, like, and trust you? To be known, you need to like be bigger than you perceived. So that's why we leveraged things like virtual assistants at the time. We pushed out a lot of content on LinkedIn, which is all like organics. We made a lot of noise because all of the other agencies back then didn't really understand marketing, which I know we'll come on to, which is, let's say, is very, very important.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Having a clear marketing strategy. So we built that perception up and that brand quite quickly for little cost as well.

Okay. So just under £350 grand first year, you and your younger brother at home. I guess just quickly before we sort of move into the next couple of years and sort of where, how you got to where today, like in hindsight now, looking back, What do you wish you did differently or what advice would you give yourself knowing what you know now, do you think?

Number 1, hire slow, fire fast. I hired too quick, fired too slow for sure. I kept on to people that like I was giving too much of a chance to for sure. Always remember cash is king, like your money in the bank, not like invoices due, like actual money in the bank. Have a clear client acquisition strategy or system developed so you've got constant stream of inbound leads coming in and meetings. Because if you're not out there meeting clients and pitching business, then the rest of what you're doing, admin or operational, it's not effective. So I was really key with my time. Like I learned like to be really precious with my time. My time is speaking to clients. Because everything comes down to systems. Like, and it's like, break it down into little steps because to be excellent at something, you have to break everything down, systemize it, understand what worked, what didn't work. And once things really work, that's when you can really scale those areas. But it was, yeah.

What was the, what was, well, you can say, well, see, just over the last 4 years, but what's been, just talking about system processes, what's been the best or the handful of best pieces of technology or systems that you've invested in, would you say?

Good question. We used to have a lot of tech, a lot more than what we did now because as entrepreneur, you have shiny object syndrome. So you're like, oh wow, look at that cool thing. Bolt that on, bolt that on. Before you know it, I've got like 15, 16 tools. I'm getting a case to manage the tools. Then I'm having to hire more virtual assistants to hire the virtual assistants that are managing the tools and then complexity breaks. So Apple's a great part of that with Steve Jobs. Like everything was really simple. So every time you add another layer of complexity, like there's all sorts of problems that can go wrong.

Yeah, exactly.

Now I really simplify the business. So we'll try and just use one tool for one specific thing that works instead of adding on every other tool.

Well, yeah, well, like if you were to start a recruitment business tomorrow, whatever, what would be your like goal? Like, do you know what I mean? Your little technology starter pack. What would you invest in?

I would probably, obviously LinkedIn Recruiter, although we only paid it to a certain point because it's expensive and they control the market. Like we've got to be honest, like LinkedIn Recruiter, without it, there's no chance you can start a business without it.

For sure.

Yeah.

LinkedIn Recruiter. Yeah.

LinkedIn Recruiter. You need some sort of email finder mobile phone tool. We've used Lusha in the past.

Yeah.

We're not using it anymore, but that could be good. And what I normally teach is like how to map the market down. I'm old school spreadsheets, but then I would have data people to gather all the data in one market. Then I would build an email automation outreach. Strategy to engage with that market. Then I would build out my dream 100, dream 100 strategy.

And I would dream what, dream 100 clients? Yeah.

That you want to work with. And then we've got like 8 different touchpoints we do within our business into that market. So I would do less tools and more strategy and actually building proper systems that don't break. So leverage technology where you need it. But in terms of hacks, I mean, there's LinkedIn tools as well, but a lot of those are getting banned now. And the different ones.

What email automation tools do you use?

We've tried Reply.io. We're using, we're trying at the minute, which is quite cool. That's probably the best one that I've tested on the market so far.

And what was it called? What was it called? Sorry.

Reply.io.

Reply.io. Okay, cool.

But it's not just about the tool. It's how, like, how—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously.

Yeah.

Apply.

So people think that they're just going to get jobs inbound. Yes, like that's, that's brought in jobs. And sometimes we have been lucky where they've sent us a job spec and said, if you agree 15%, you can go ahead. But that's very, very rare. Like you need to learn to have off-the-cuff conversations and being able to bring it from a reply into—

yeah, yeah, yeah.

With your strategy and how you, like what I call your unfair advantage in your market. Like what is your unfair advantage in your niche? That you do differently to everyone else.

Your unfair advantage.

Yeah.

I like that.

So like what we do is like, ours is digital marketing and inbound marketing. So we can help clients with brand attraction, brand awareness, social media, video content. Like what can you do? And because we're the only agency in the Northeast fully connected to every tech person in the Northeast and they know, like, and trust us. We've got a dev fund where we do dev events. Like all of these things are unfair advantages. So if any company—

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're 3 years behind. And so no chance.

I like that phrase, unfair advantage. I think that's a great way to put it. I like that. Look, I have to ask you because I'm sure some people are thinking it and then we'll sort of go into the next couple years when you're hiring people and all that. But like, just because you've mentioned it quite a lot and people might be like, people may think this is alien to them, may not think it's possible. I've had my own experience with it in my own business now, but VAs, how easy was that? Like, let's just talk about that for a sec because I think the way that you're talking, describing about your business, James, and probably a huge factor as to why you've been able to build the business that you want is that, like, if you just think about the way you're describing your business, it's definitely not the typical way that you would build a recruitment business. Do you know what I mean? So talking about VAs, talking about email automation, talking about marketing, driving inbounds, all these types of things. I think, I'd like to think that the sort of future generation of recruitment entrepreneurs will be building businesses more the way that you have or the way that you're describing it, right? So VAs and leveraging resources like virtual assistants is definitely part of that. And I've done that myself, but I can just imagine people thinking, what is he on, like, VA, what is he on about? Like, how the hell can I use that as a recruiter, do you get what I mean? So just quickly, what's like, just talk a bit about your experience or how important VAs or how good of an investment VAs have been for you earlier on or still now to this day, like just quick on that 'cause I have to ask you.

It's a good point 'cause I think I'm—

'Cause it's easy for you to think that, oh, everyone thinks this is how you build a recruitment business.

Yeah, I think I should have explained that at the start. So you've got the old traditional way of recruiting an agency, which is Wolf of Wall Street that I came from. Nothing wrong with those agencies, by the way. I've got the greatest amount of respect for that because that takes a lot of energy to drum up your salespeople every day, get them on the phone, chase down that lead, try and get in there first. Like it's fricking tiresome. And I've got like my hats off respect to people that do it because there's a lot of agencies out there that make that work. That's great. And that's for them. Like I said before, it comes down to first principles and When you start the business, what type of life do you want to live? Because you need to get your starting conditions right, otherwise you're fucked. Like you need to make sure that you understand what you want out of an agency. I knew I didn't want that anymore. If I wanted to build an agile franc, I could, but I have not got the time and energy to do that. I knew there's a different way. So I call it the new era agency, which is all around like what I would call like a small boutique agency that leverages tools, technology, a niche within a niche, like a clear client acquisition system, relying on virtual assistants, a great culture, self-managing business. And then you've got like a lot of systems taking out the human element. You've got the recruitment delivery, but then you've also productized your service. So we productize our service now. So we only pitch for retained business in with recruitment and marketing, and it's exclusive. In the Northeast. Like there's only two options for that.

We're going to dig into that, mate.

Yeah. Going back to the virtual assistant. I knew from the start if I wanted freedom, lifestyle, and still all of the money.

Starting conditions.

Eliminate all of these tasks, adding CVs to the system, scraping job boards, finding data, building out markets, managing the outreach templates and campaigns. Like I knew there's a better way. So I spent a lot of time paid for courses, learned from people for 3 years to really refine my virtual assistant sourcing strategy and sourcing system. We got it to a point where the VAs would rate the candidates, book in the calls for the recruiters, which still happens today. And probably 1/3 of our deals, give or take, depending on which person would come initially from the outreach from one of the VAs. Really stuck with that. But then you could also add different perks and different tools. And we stripped that back and just kept it basic because like I said, the more complexity or more layers you start to add, it gets too complex. So a virtual assistant is good. You can't just— I do give advice in going Upwork, Fiverr, but people get it wrong because they think it's just going to be an overnight thing.

Yeah, it's not. Yeah. I think, cause that was going to be my next thing, James. Like just cause I think a lot of people, and I was one of these people where It just took me to that sort of initial overcome the, like, how difficult I think it's going to be or how much hassle it's going to be to just overcome that, to then just speak to a couple of people, think about, okay, if I hire a VA, what do I want them to do? Let's map out that process. What do I want help with? Blah, blah, blah. And once you actually just get over that sort of paralyzation of, oh God, this is going to be really difficult or it's just going to be challenging. And then you just, yeah, think about what I want help with. And then you just start having conversations with people. It's just way more easier than you think. But I think a lot of people can think, oh, that's just way too much hard work than it's worth. Do you know what I mean? To even get started. So I guess what would be your— clearly done it for a while and it's a big part of your business— like just your sort of go-to advice to get to make people, help people take action on trying to make a VA part of their recruitment business or whatever, like what would be your go-to advice on that to like actually start the process?

They need to just understand the fundamentals. So they need to either follow a blueprint of someone else that's done it, i.e., me. Because that's the easier way to do it in 3 years. Which is not— come on to at the end, but I can help people build out virtual assistant teams if they need to. There's other companies out there that do it in general. To hire VAs. So I know there's a lot of what you call RPOs, or there's like outsourced Indian teams. All of our VAs are from the Philippines, just because they speak fantastic English. English is pretty much their first language over there. They're very loyal. But you've just got to set the foundations right. It's hard on a podcast to say—

Yeah, I know what you mean.

I know how it works.

I just don't want everyone to— because I Because I've been through that process, not that scale, but I've been in that process and I just know people will think it's way more difficult than it is. Do you know what I mean? So maybe a better question would be, and then we can move on, would be what's the most pop— like, what's the most common misconception of VAs, would you say?

That they're just— they're probably not going to do as good a job as me, which is true. Like, that's number one. Like, the results aren't going to be as good as you doing it yourself, but you need to put value on your time per hour. Your time per hour should be at least £50-£100 per hour. So if you can get someone to do it for £5 an hour and 60-70% in, with a view to always improving them.

Yeah, yeah.

It's worth it. But it is, I'll be honest, at the start, it's a lot of time from you because you have to manage them and you're going to get frustrated.

Yeah, it's a process. That was going to be my sort of final point on it. It's a process. But as you said, a year, 2 years, 3 years, however long it takes, it's then when you're aiming.

It's another unfair advantage, isn't it? Because I've built up and it's an asset to me. So I knew I didn't want 100 staff in my office because I am not a great manager. I don't have a desire to have 100 employees. I want some employees because we have a great culture and I love coming into my office with people that I really love being around. But for these tasks, like I knew if I wanted 6 holidays a year and to take Mondays off whenever I want, I could have a virtual assistant team that's easier to manage once I've built and refined the process and the system. Then it's cheaper, more effective, less overhead, and it's more flexible, but it's going to be more pain-free in the long term. But I suffered more pain at the start as an entrepreneur.

Okay, cool. I know obviously we can't do the like virtual, the VA, like, yeah, okay, cool. So going into year 2 then, James, what was, was the plan then? Right, I want this to be— I know what you're talking about, how you wanted your business, but like, did you envision obviously it being more than just you and your younger brother? Like, what sort of, what was then the sort of mindset going into how can you then grow this business from a 6-figure business to a 7-figure business? What was the sort of mindset or strategy as to how you're going to go about that?

Yeah. Cause I have toyed with this and we'll talk around the journey cause I have went from lifestyle to all of a sudden, actually I want to build a proper business that I can build to sell. And then it was like transitioning back to something in between where I'm building an asset and a business to sell, but it's unique. It's the new era agency. It's not a traditional agency. And if one day I want to sell the business, great. If not, it's going to make me a hell of a lot of money. So I'm fine. But like second year was, we hired a girl called Isabella who's a great girl. She's had a little baby now, so she's on maternity at the moment. But it was just us three in the office. So that's when we got— it was probably midway in year one anyway, but we had a serviced office, 4-person office, but with 3 people in, my brother and Isabella doing delivery and candidates. And then I was still like winning— I was working so much on how can we productize our service, how can we be really different, unfair advantage. How can we get more retained business and exclusive business and really boxing out the, probably the top, I talk about the Dream 100, like our top 10, 15, 20 clients that we wanted in the Northeast. We pretty much won them all by the end of year 2 because I set those expectations and I put that out into the universe that we wanted to work with them. And I didn't put as much importance on it. I didn't stress it and it all just came. And that's all around the different flow of psychology in terms of mindset. But like second year was all about like, can we get close to the million pound mark, but also not sacrificing our fundamentals, the systems. Because as it started growing and scaling, say I, let's say I brought in another 3 VAs and hire another person, like things break again. So then you need to rebuild it and refine it. So second year I was still enjoying the agency, enjoying the rewards of that, because remember I came from earning £60,000, £70,000 a year to like, I could easily take home 50+. Like I could have the night out. I started buying like a bigger house. So then we started doing the house up. I got a nice car, went on nice holidays with my girlfriend, fiancée at the time. Like all of those things. I was enjoying the life as well as the business. But then I was putting processes in place. Everything that we did was systemized, processed. So that was like from everything from recording to documenting in a big document on the business. So I was always at the start, I had the mindset to build a business to sell in a systemized way, but it was different to the traditional norm. So second year was good. Like I think we finished on, I'm sure it was £600,000, £650,000 if I remember rightly, which was really good. Bear in mind there's only like 3 main employees. Actually I did hire 2 that I sacked after 2 or 3 months. So I was kept trying to, I tried with the homeworking. So I hired 2 people that would work from home, recruiters. That didn't work. So again, because I was trying to force that model. So I was trying to adapt it to between, I didn't want a full-on office agency with loads of employees.

P.S.

Yeah. Remote work and laptop lifestyle recruiters, that was very hard to adapt to as well. So that's now we've transitioned. This is year 4 now, like into really good delivery consultants. Still, I've got a couple of 360s, but then it's all around having a BD person and then delivery. But second year like was really good. Again, enjoyed it. And then we're moving on to third year was probably the most difficult year where, being honest, I didn't really enjoy it as much because I brought on a lot of stress myself because I differentiated away from all of my core beliefs and suddenly think that, oh well, to grow like we need to hire more staff. And I think you get—

Why? Where did that come? Why? Just because I mean, it's easy to go down that route, isn't it?

Yeah, well, obviously to keep growing, you do need at some point more employees.

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

So much I can generate and my brother. But I think you get trapped in the fact of, oh, well, others are doing like £10 million turnover and I've got 50 staff. Because if you speak to other recruitment owners, how many staff you got now?

Yeah, it's the first question, isn't it? I've spoken about it a few times. It is the first question.

But that's nothing because now then I transition back is I make a lot more profit than most other recruitment agencies now because we've got it to a point where it's a really lean, perfected out model where it's lean to a point where we don't need overheads when we— for the sake of it. But yeah, I got through that cycle. So I hired a lot. Like I think I went through about 8 mistakes in terms of hires. So I spent a lot of time, you think, hiring, interviewing, onboarding them. Then manage them, then firing them. And then that really damaged— because we try and create a good culture, so we're sort of finding our feet with that. So I think, yeah, 3 was probably a—

what was the learnings in that then, James? Because I think a lot, a lot of people challenge it. A lot of people, uh, don't leave that cycle, or like that, you know what I mean? Some people remain in that cycle. If that cycle is the 8 new— the 8 people, 8 sort of core people are there that sort of is solid and they've got that all sorted, but then the sort of 4, 5, 8 more people on top of that is just a constant cycle and chaos of getting it wrong, learning, onboarding, then they leave, blah, blah, blah. So just quickly on that, because I know people get value from it.

Going back to fundamentals and like I had different mentors again back then and I realised, like, remove myself from the recruitment world again and thinking from business logically and first principles and actually re-engineering what I wanted out of the the business. Like not following what everyone else was doing. Because the problem was like you get absorbed with, oh well, we're hiring this way and these are our sales targets, these are our KPIs and this is how you need to manage them, this is how you pitch. And I moved back into my listening to myself again from my studies and like I said, reverse engineering everything to think, well, I don't want that business. Like I really do not like it and that's not what I want to create. So I started reshaping and remodeling how that business looked. So I stripped it all back. So thinking what has worked really well in the business. So we won a lot of exclusive and a lot of retained. We've really drilled down into the niche in the Northeast because we tried, we still do a bit in the Northwest Manchester, but we tried different locations and trying to—

too hard.

Like it was pointless. Like we were hiring 1 or 2 recruiters to go and do another market, but that takes a lot of energy and resource.

A lot of people think that like if it's a niche within a niche, that isn't enough though. And there isn't enough. There than what, like enough there for what they want it to be. Do you know what I mean?

So you've got to, so like how I map the market out is you're going to have to have at least a dream 100. You're going to have to at least 100 good clients that are growing on a trend that would hire at least 3 to 4 of your 3 job titles in a year for sure. Otherwise, market. That's one of the things I'd look at. So I'd look at how many candidates is in, within that market. Is there about 3 to 5,000 on LinkedIn? Great. Is there about 1,000 companies? Yes. Great. So you've got a market there that should do at least 400, 500, 600K. But then it comes back to profit. So like I was going back. So we made less money in year 3 than we did in year 1 or 2. And I was like, fuck, like—

What the hell's going on?

Working harder. My Mondays off were gone. I had less holidays. I had less time to spend on myself. So I wasn't in the right headspace in year 3.

What clicked then, James? Because like, I think a lot of people, again, back to like, where we started this conversation, right, right, right, starting conditions and these types of things. Like, you're talking, you're the person you're describing is the person that you're talking about that ends up in the business that, or ends up building the business that they don't like. So like, like, because a lot of people will be in that position that you're describing that you're in and think, okay, well, this is, this is the business I have. Like, how can you step back out of that? So I guess, like, was there a moment where you're like, no, this is enough, and then Like, what did you, how did you then just make the decision to step back? Do you know what I mean? Was there a particular moment that drove that?

I think it was, there's different masterminds I've attended. I go to one in LA at the moment and they're not recruiters. A lot of them don't own service agencies, but they were all pretty much younger than me and they were making between £1 to £5, £10 million a year. And I was like, fuck, like, why am I wasting my time? Working 6 days a week.

It's a bit of reality check for me.

I was like, I need to elevate. Like, so I was back again, personal growth. So like really like deep diving into my analysis of my brain. What will get me from A to B will not get me from C. So the person I became, I did change and adapt and I got to 7 figures. Okay. So, but what's going to get me more to that is to be 8-figure mindset. You need to change a lot of the fundamentals. So I was back to It was things like plan tomorrow today, your health, like are you looking after your health in terms of like looking after yourself, meditating, gratitude, planning your perfect week, planning the business around like what you want to do. Like I knew I was going against my core belief, like my truth was like the new era agency. And I was like, it was a wake-up call for me. It was like, James, why? I'm coming into work. I was coming into work on the third year. Hishem Azzouz. And I hated it. I was like, go in, closing the door. I was like, and I was just distracted. I could see myself looking at different things. I'm like, I'm not enjoying it. But it was a reflection of me in the mirror. So you need to have that reflection yourself to analyze what business you've created. You've created that monster. So I was like, well, I got myself in that. Let's get myself back out of it. And stripping it all back. And then it was less about revenue, less about headcount. It was just all about profit. Like, can we be as profitable as possible?

Yeah.

Productizing the service again, working on that, doing what we did best. So it was going back to the fundamentals of niche within a niche, sticking to the northeast market, me still going out to meet the right type of clients, but being picky about the retained, increasing our prices because we were the best in the market, what we delivered, adding different value adds. I worked on all of that. And that came from the mindset of knowing that I got us into that, like, sort of not mess as it were, but like, I wasn't—

yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't—

yeah, I love my agency now. I love the people that I've got because that was another thing. It was like, you hired different characters and then hiring— I would never hire the me that was in Nigel Frank because I was a dick. Yeah, like, yes, money, but it been— I would have been like, the culture wasn't right as well.

Yeah, yeah.

So like, going back to like, then I started creating what I've done now as a self-managing culture, self-managing company. So everyone manages themselves. All they do is create an end of day report and Slack it to me and I'll check it off to get them understanding if they're— it's a business within a business. They've got their targets to hit. They've got their key tasks that they need to do per day, but I'm not down the neck. They get a lot of freedom and autonomy, but just don't take the piss. And that's what it was like. So given my staff like trust and respect.

Yeah. So I guess you're talking about it there, but what I was just keen to sort of segue into then, James, was like, What were the— I know you've sort of broke it down, but like, what, just for people listening and sort of you going on this journey with us, which I really appreciate because you've been really honest, is like, what were the key things that you changed then going into year 4 that put you now in a position where you're enjoying going back? So you just said they're building a self-managing culture, which I really like the sound of and really interesting. But what, I know you said you stripped it back and looked at different things, but What were the sort of key things that you changed that really put you in a position where you're now, yeah, as you said, happier, enjoying it again, back to being in a business that you want to be in and the business that you want to build rather than what you've just been describing?

Yeah, I would say like focusing on our actual market. So building a new product suite to adapt and give what the market really wanted. A lot around, like I said, mindset. So we are like raising my average standards. So I'd gotten in the comfort zone because I was making good money and I had most things I wanted now. So like a good house, car, all the things. So I think I sort of plateaued a little bit year 3.

Got a bit complacent?

Yeah, definitely a little bit. And then frustrated because I hired people that weren't right and that just—

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then I didn't really enjoy being in the business as much. And then I was looking at different things. I did get a bit sideswiped in terms of, right, I'm just going to build this business to sell now and get rid of it. Sell it for 5, 10 million. There's a lot of different transitions you go through, like building to 7 figures and then 8. Like, there's a lot of bad advice you can get as well. So I was starting to listen to myself more and really raise my standards. I raised my game in terms of what I do every day, not necessarily just in the business but outside of work. Who I listen to, what I surround myself with, what I do every day in terms of my actual like standards. Because when you keep raising your standards, as a human, as default, you will go to the lowest standard that you will accept. So like most people are at this level, but if I keep raising it to here, and then when I have a lazy day or just a good average, I'm keep raising it. So I kept pushing myself in other areas of life that reflected in business. So it was like sometimes your business is a self-reflection of what's going on in your personal life as well and what other habits are you creating in your surroundings. So I think I just pushed myself through that barrier of like really working on my inner self.

A lot of people don't, people might be thinking right now, James, and think, well, how can working on yourself make you more, help you build more of a successful recruitment business? So just, I know we've spoken and like I love the sort of amount you're talking about mindset and these types of things. But just add a bit more context to that, James. Do you know what I mean? Because I think some people might be listening going, okay, James, I get it, but how? Like, how can that then—

read this book, The Power of the Subconscious Mind by Dr. Joseph Murphy. Okay. Um, I'm a big believer in stuff like that. So mindset is key. Yeah, yeah, mindset. It's like Past law of attraction stuff and physics and we are energy. So all that energy like that you notice in other agencies, like, you know, when you've got it all, you've got all that pressure.

Yeah.

That's no good because that's what Dr. David Hawkins talks around in the book Power Versus Force, which is another book I read.

Yeah, that's an absolute cracker, that one.

Different levels of consciousness. So I've just elevated my levels of consciousness. Instead of being everything by me, like forcing things through.

Yeah.

Like I am, instead of like force, like I'm using just power of like me attracting these things. Because I was looking at if I'm going to operate at this level, you're going to be stressed, burnt out. Yes, you might be rich, but most people are stressed, looking for external validation in terms of different things they're buying. Their health's going to be at risk. They're going to be stuck in that cycle. They're not going to have a relationship after this business. A lot of, you see a lot of people getting divorced. Divorces, etc. And I wanted it to be more effortless, less stress, happy, good for inside myself, really contributing and growing as a person. Like all of these things like come from your subconscious mind because our brains are wired from when we were 0 to 7 years old. And all of our 95% of beliefs, we've got limited beliefs that happened within that time. You need to rewire your brain. So it's a lot around like personal work on yourself. Your brain. So another good book is Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Schwartz. That's probably one of my key books that I always recommend to people. Because a lot of people are fighting through fear. Like most people that feel they don't start a recruitment business, it's just fear. Fear of the unknown. You've got to be happy and comfortable with uncomfort and unknown stuff. That's the game as an entrepreneur and the game of life. But the more you elevate your levels of consciousness, the more the more things you see and the more things you attract.

Yeah.

The less importance that you put on things. Don't put pressure on it. Going back for billers that are listening now, don't put importance on a deal. It'll happen. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. You set the expectation, but you don't put importance on it. Because you know, the more importance that you put on closing the deal, the less likely that will happen in the field of energy. It's just not going to happen. So a lot of like, like I said—

So you working on yourself then translates into a better version of James, turn up to business making better decisions. And yeah, that having an impact on the environment that you build, the people that you hire and yeah.

Yeah. Because what you think, you become. You've got to think positive outcomes. And people are geared for primal fear just in the situation that we are with the pandemic. Like people are watching the news and media like nuts. Like no, like I haven't, I've switched off totally from any news. Like I never watch the news anyway because it's all negative. Well, people are creating the illness themselves by thinking, just because they're listening to all of that negative. So switch off things like the news, like listen to the right people, surround yourself with the right type of people as well. Like all of those things is key. Like most people that are successful is like, yes, have strong business fundamentals. You've got to put in the work, you've got to put in the hustle, correct? In the right way. Can't just work without the strategy and a plan that's incorrect. Like you need to make sure you've got the right plan. You're building the right thing and it feels right for you. Because if it feels congruent with your true inner self, like, you will find a way for it to happen. A lot of people are building things that aren't right for them and they're unhappy in business and they can't get out of it. A lot of people have got bigger businesses than me, more staff, making more revenue, but they're making less profit and they're really unhappy. And they've built this themselves because it's a self-reflection of themselves in a mirror. And it all comes back to yourself, not the business.

So look, so just to round that off then, like, how— so are you going— so are you still in year 4 now, or what's that?

2015, 2020. So no, this is our midway through our 5th year now.

Because like, that just— let's just round off. I'd like— like, then, so where did you finish as a business year 4 then, revenue, net fee income-wise?

Revenue, I think we're 1.2 to 1.3 million. Which is net fee income because we didn't do contract either. Like, it's all—

Yeah. Okay.

And more profitable, like, in terms of like the profit that we've made. This year we're going to be on target to do £1.8 million, but that's including contract. Like, we've got one contract recruiter, but again, net fee income will probably be like £1.4, £1.5, which I'm happy with because if we can do over half a million pounds profit Like I've got, like, that's took a long time to get there, by the way. Like it just takes time. But if we can get to that level, I'll be really happy because I'm doing a lot with my coaching program now, as I told you, like I really believe in mentorship and guidance. So my true, true inner passion is coaching, which I'm going to help other people start and grow a 6-figure recruitment agency and uncover all the things of building a virtual team.

I love it, man. I think it's great what you're doing. Just a quick one, then let's segue into that and sort of bring this to the end. I guess just one thing that I wanted to just get your thoughts on. I know you've touched on that, but I just wanted to make sure I asked your thoughts, experience with it, because I think a lot of recruitment businesses, maybe even through this period of learning as well, but it's definitely been spoken a lot more of over the last 12 months, longer, in terms of productization of your services, right? So I guess like right now, like, so your products are retained and then you've got the employer branding piece as well for clients.

Yeah, we've got a full marketing solution, which I know I've got a really cool product that's been, we've been working on during this downtime with my marketing manager, which is due to be released in the next couple of weeks, which is what I would call a blend between doing the actual recruitment for the client to actually showing them the marketing techniques.

Marketing, yeah.

Build it in-house. So we can build them an in-house talent acquisition system mixed with the recruitment fundamentals. Because a lot of internal recruiters, like, I know there's always a battle, but like they don't know the brand piece, the marketing piece and everything else. And we've created like a training solution for that as well. So yeah.

So why is it important for recruiters to be thinking about productization? Of their services?

Well, definitely because of an unfair advantage like we've discussed.

Yeah.

And also like, remember clients now, like after this are going to be very, very picky around, do they really need an agency? What value are you going to bring to me? Yes, you're going to send me a CV, but there's going to be tons of people offering it at 10%, 12%, because they'll be scraping around even to survive. Or people, there's going to be a lot of more, I think, recruitment startups where people have been furloughed. Which I get a lot of applications, I've been let go now, I've been thinking about starting myself.

Yeah, definitely.

There's a lot of recruiters that wouldn't have even thought about starting their own agency, which they are now, and they're more informed. They've got podcasts like yourself and everything else, and there's more information. So it's a lot easier to start a recruitment business than ever before. So you really do need to like productize in a way where you are offering something different, niche within a niche, like not general. So like, for instance, like if it's within a certain sector, job title, and certain type of companies that you provide for, whether it's SMEs or mid-level market or anything, like you have to have— that's going to be your differentiator. But you've got to work— like I've invested a lot of myself like in different courses and learning what other people are doing in America and different places. Like trying to, and then try and get those thoughts into your own signature service as it's called. Signature service. You can't just copy someone else's or like make it overnight. Like it's work. And this is the problem that most recruiters only know recruitment. So I've always said I'm a business person. Business will go first, recruitment second. It's just a skill that I've got. Like, not the other way around. Most recruiters are recruiters.

I think that's the correct mindset. Like that should be the mindset. Do you know what I mean? Because yeah, totally. Okay. So, look, you mentioned it there in terms of your sort of real inner passion, helping recruiters start their own business.

What—

let's just talk about that for a sec before we finish. A lot of recruiters listen to this podcast, a lot of business owners listen to this podcast, but with you and the conversations that you have, what are the sort of common things that you hear or common challenges that you hear from people that do have that fear of starting their own business that you talk to them about when overcoming it? Like what are just the common challenges that you hear a lot of the time?

Yeah, I think just not knowing how. So like how am I going to win clients? Because again, they're used to the traditional way. Like not many people still are using a lot of the systems and the tools. So like knowing how to build a solid client acquisition system is one of the key things that we do. So you've got constant clients coming to you inbound and there's a way and techniques of how you deal with those clients and how you pitch for your services and win the clients. So that needs mapped out for them is number one. How to actually map out a market and know what niche to pick. Having a clear platform template and system to do that. And then a lot of things holding people back, like they think little things, like even things like, like I say, website, finance, how do I get paid? All of those little things. I'm like, well, You don't need to worry about that yet. Just worry about winning your first clients. So step by step you get ahead. So it's like building each block as it's required. But a lot of people, like, again, holding people back is the job security fear. Comes back to mindset, Hishem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We both keep talking around, like, for you to change to be a recruiter to a business owner is not just setting up a limited company on Companies House. Anyone can do that. Creating a website, anyone can do that. It's you need to change your mindset. If you're not going to prepare to put in the work, every evening I'm reading for 2, 3 hours every single day still. And that's been the last 5 years plus. Attending masterminds, I spent about over £200,000 in terms of courses, mentors. Like I'm prepared to keep elevating my levels of like—

I think my thing on that is like, that's got, just because I love the way, and you know how much I love this, James, and we've connected on this. And I think it's so important to communicate that working on yourself does mean that you can, that means that you can have, get even more out of your recruitment career. And it's definitely what we should be talking about. And not many people do, but I think what I just wanted to make clear in my opinion, and hopefully you agree, or you might disagree, is that that's got, what you just said there has got to be coupled with action. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I've been with these things.

I've just done a video on that actually on my YouTube channel.

Really? Because, because, yeah, because like I've been to the Tony Robbins Unleash the Power Within. I've read obviously quite a few of the books that you mentioned. And I think that that's the thing that I think people can get caught up in. And also the, and also why when you say these mastermind groups, spending this money and doing all that, there's that sort of sometimes stigma that it's like bollocks.

Like, just because you do, there are people that don't know what you don't know. Like, yeah, yeah, like this, you do not know like what you're going to go through to get to a million, million pounds plus. Like, there's things that you, that's why you need mentors or you need someone to follow or you need to work on yourself to understand.

Yeah, you don't understand, you have to take action. That's the thing. I think a lot of people can get caught in that self-development cycle of, right, I'm going to pay to go on this next course, next course, and they're always waiting for that next course to be like the golden bullet. To like whatever, but that's all I just wanted to add to that, James. I love the way that you're talking about this, you know I do. Okay, well look, before we finish then, James, what are you most excited about after this difficult period that we're all going through? What are you most excited to do? What are you most excited to be, see? I don't know, what are you most excited about when we start coming back out of this?

Yeah, to be honest, like, I might be different to other people, but I've loved this time to work on myself, less distractions. I've got my home office here, go for walks every day. I mean, as Seneca says, like one of the great philosophers, like, everyone moans about not having much time on this planet, but like, when you actually break it down into the time people waste per day, like everyone's got enough time on this earth to make an impact. But people just waste it. And then before they know it, they're on a deathbed and regret. Oh, should have done this, should have done that. And I know for a fact there's going to be a lot of people that are going to regret when this all gets lifted and they're back to work. They're like, oh, I wish I used that time that I was on Netflix to work on myself. Or I should have done this, should have done that. So many people are going to regret this time that they've got now where they can actually really self-reflect, like journal. Like I journal my thoughts every day, all of these things. So I enjoy this time more than like going back into the work, but I'm excited because this is sort of a recession, but there's never been a time where government's like pumping funding in, like bounce-back loans, like everyone can get 50K just to get into the business straight away, £10,000 grant, like all of these cheap money, like there's so much opportunity is going to be trickled down, £330 billion plus from just the UK economy. Like the money is going to be there somewhere. It's just learning to adapt. There's the famous Charles Darwin says, it's in nature and business, it's not the strongest of species that survive, which you see that in agencies. It's not the biggest of agencies that are going to survive, nor the most intelligent, but ones that are most adaptable to change. You need to adapt. What worked back traditionally in recruitment will not necessarily work in the future. And that's what I truly believe. It's going to be less. I think they'll get rid of a lot of internal recruiters because companies will not be hiring tens and twenties anymore. They're going to either hire freelance or they're going to be a little bit more clever. So they might use recruitment agencies, but it will be down to cost or what's in it for them value. So that's why you need to productize the service. So I'm really excited about how this next journey does because in chaos becomes new order. So it's a level playing field again. And I'm ready. Like, it's exciting. Any entrepreneur should be excited in these times because The most millionaires, billionaires, and biggest companies were built in recessions. I feel sorry for the people that have been unfortunate where they've had high overheads and they just haven't been able to survive this. Like, I'm sure they'll come back and bounce back stronger, which I know we didn't touch on today, but cash is king. Like building a financial war chest. I was so lucky in our last probably 8 months really where we won some big retainers with some big, big clients that really tidied us all up where we've had a big, cash. Like, and the big— and that was probably the biggest thing for me the last year was my goal was create a million-pound war chest just in my bank, like making sure we've got that cash so we could go 12, 18 months paying our overheads without going under. And that's the key thing. I probably couldn't— that couldn't have happened in year 2 or year 3. But like, having that was exciting. But Yeah, I'm just excited to see what it brings. Obviously, I've got my program that I've developed over the last, probably the 18 months it's been in the making in terms of what we've created. But basically, we've created a 90-day Recruiter Accelerator program to help people either, that have either started their own agency or already got their own agency and they want to grow it to 6 figures plus and beyond by building a solid client acquisition system, which is what I built at Ronald James, a virtual assistant system. And being able to build, automate, and systemize your business and scale it up to 6-figure profits. What I call like a new age client attraction system. So that's what I'm working on just because it's my passion.

Yeah, I love it, man. I think it's class. I love it. Look, final question. Ask it to everyone. So you can answer this with a phrase, a word, a sentence, whatever comes to mind. If you could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen, recruitment entrepreneur, business owner, they'd take your advice, they'd implement it tomorrow, what would James say to the people?

As my mentor Dan Peña says, just fucking do it.

Love that, mate.

Get rid of self-doubt, limited beliefs, force through, force through fear. There will be friends, family telling you no, you're stupid. There'll be voices in your head saying don't take the risk, whatever. Like you've just got to go through adversity, you've got to force through.

James, it's been an absolute pleasure, mate. Thank you.