James Vizor - "Every CEO & MD said, the most common trait they saw in BIG billers was work ethic"

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by James Vizer, who is the director of Raw Recruitment.

Hi, thanks for having me.

Thanks for joining me, mate.

Pleasure.

I've been really looking forward to this.

So, Vy, you are like a, I don't know, a recruitment celebrity now. And when I saw you, I was almost like, oh, I've seen you on LinkedIn quite a few times now. Now you're in the flesh. So, uh, yeah, exciting.

Definitely not a celebrity, mate. Well, But, um, why I was excited, because if I think I haven't had like a— I haven't had someone that— I mean, you've done rec to rec for how long?

Uh, it'll be 16 years next year.

Yeah, exactly. So I mean, that's— that is mental.

Yeah.

Like, and I haven't— I haven't had someone sort of from a sort of rec to rec perspective for a while now. I just think it's such a— you have such— you're in such a unique position to like just actually be honest around what you're seeing, what you're not seeing. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's so valuable for, um, people listening. So, um, before we sort of uncover the 16 years of rec-to-rec life, how did, uh, you get into the, the world of recruitment, mate?

Well, unlike most people who fell into it, um, I actually wanted to go into it from about the age of 18. One of my parents' friends, they had a daughter who was, what, about 22, 23, working in Leeds. Okay, uh, and she was earning 80 grand a year.

Really?

And I was like, okay, I'm not an academic, I'm certainly not gonna be a doctor or a vet or a lawyer, but I wouldn't mind earning 80 grand a year. So ever since I kind of found out about that, I just wanted to be a recruiter, um, which is why I told my parents I wasn't too fussed on getting good results, because at the time, being a recruiter, uh, as long as you could speak and have a bit of banter with someone and, you know, you were hardworking, you were going to be successful. All right, yeah.

So where did you grow up?

Grew up in the Cotswolds. Uh, yeah, I went to boarding school in Birmingham.

Um, it's a boarding school.

Yeah, I did.

Oh wow, how's that?

Do you know what, first year was pretty horrific.

Yeah, that must be hard being— and how old was you?

11. Yeah, first year.

I always think when I— do you know what I mean?

Do you know, I really want to go because my parents had a really messy divorce. And, um, yeah, first year, say it was hard. I came from a very rural, you know, local school, and I, I joined, and I was had masses of ginger hair and a rotund stomach. And so really, I was called Fat Orange for the first year, and I didn't particularly like it. Standard. Prepared me for a sales floor, a banterous environment.

But, um, I like ginger now though, mate.

It's more like African sunset now.

Yes, not that ginger at all.

What's left of it.

Although when you WhatsApp me and, you know, you've got those little— what they're called, like emojis or whatever they're called— he's definitely ginger.

Yeah, I think that's quite a realistic emoji. My son points to it and says, Daddy. So yeah, I think I've nailed it. But yeah, do you know what, as soon as I kind got to a level where I started playing sport basically, and you know, you started excelling at sport. I just really love boarding school and it, yeah, it gave me a— I was, yeah, I can't proclaim to be the best rugby player, but yeah, I was all right.

So fair enough, mate. No, just interested in that because like, I don't know, like how many mates— it's hard, isn't it? How many mates you have when you get plonked in Birmingham and you go to school there?

Yeah, none. But everyone was in the same situation. I just think, you know, it just taught me such an amazing you know, skill set away from academia. It was more about how you handled yourself. I think, honestly, you're on your own at that age, that's decent. Yeah, it's tough.

I lived at home until I was 20— well, until last year.

Wow.

Do you know what I mean? And like, and then my only other experience of that was when I worked abroad for 2 summers. We'll call it Mallorca, but it was Magaluf.

Most of the time you wouldn't know where you were ending up.

Yeah, exactly. But like, that was And that was the only other time that I was sort of away from parents and at home. So I think that must definitely have taught you some stuff.

Yeah, I think resilience is a really big factor for me. You know, I can have endless dropouts and yeah, of course it annoys me and like anyone, but it's just that ability to kind of push it to one side and just crack on with what's in front of me. And I think that's kind of prepared me really well for a career in recruitment because it doesn't matter how good you are or, you know, how long you've been doing it, you're always going to get those knockbacks.

So yeah, I love boarding school.

It gave me a really good start in life. And I'm very fortunate enough to have, uh, yeah, gone.

So you found out that you could earn quite a bit of money in recruitment?

Yeah.

What was the approach to get into recruitment then? How— tell me that story.

So one of my friends, um, his, uh, brother's best friend was, um, you know, a really decent recruiter and had recently set up a rec-to-rec and, um, mentioned he was looking. He said that I was interested, so, uh, the chap gave me a call when I was at uni one day. Wasn't kind of expecting it. Phone rang on my bed, answered hello, and, uh, he said, oh, you know, you want to get into recruitment? And I had a kind of 10-minute interview. He's like, right, you got the job. I was cool, fantastic. So, uh, that was about it really.

And he was at uni at this point?

I was at uni, yeah.

What was you doing?

Uh, not much really.

What was you studying?

I was studying business studies. Um, oh yeah, at school I applied to go to Cardiff, and, um, the main reason behind that was the Rugby World Cup '99, Rugby World Cup was happening that year.

Okay.

And I put Euick at the time, it's Cardiff Met now, but Euick at the time as Danesmere Second. I was predicted the grades to get in, but I was more fussed about playing rugby and showing parents around the school. So I came out with shocking A-levels, which meant I went to basically Cardiff Poly. And, you know, whereas I'm there kind of, you know, hammering graduates nowadays, like why they had a privileged upbringing, did really badly in their A-levels. I was, yeah, sadly one of those people. It was always, you know, I wanted to get in sales. I, you know, I was always quite good at building rapport with people. I kind of thought, yeah, that's definitely something for me. No, I didn't drop out. I did fail my first year.

Oh wow.

Uh, which was fairly horrific. Um, I actually kind of at that time was working in a pub for some holidays when I got my grades, and I called my dad and said, look, you know, basically I failed, I've screwed up. And I got offered a managerial position in the pub I was working in, and the position paid £12,000 a year. And I was working the shift that night after getting offered, and I kind of went out to the garden to my dad and basically called him in tears and said, look, Dad, that's not for me. I just don't want to do it. If I promise to commit, you know, can I go back to uni? And luckily my dad said yes, and I went back to uni. I was slightly harder working, still came out with a 2:2. But so after 4 years of— yeah, but yeah, uni is great fun. I don't think university is all about what you come out with, kind of great. It's more about, you know, just how much I learned, how much I put myself out there, these societies I joined. And that's kind of interestingly what I look for in a candidate, especially at the junior end, is all those kind of extracurricular things, because I probably can't relate to the academia side.

So, um, yeah, no, it's really interesting you say that. And just, just on that point, I— so I, I didn't go to university, had no idea what I wanted to do, so I was like, you know what, nah, I'm not going to go because if I don't know what to do. My brother, younger brother, on the other hand, he's, um, in— he went to UCL He's in those, he's doing his placement year and he's like full on, like the academia world, like it's just mental, like totally different to what I'm about. But I couldn't agree more, the conversations and the friends that I've had that have gone into university, it's all the conversation always have is more about the people that they met, the relationships that they made, the, like you just said, the extra things that they ended up getting involved in that they really enjoyed. And actually more of the experience of them finding out more about themselves and being away from their sort of comfortable environment at home and stuff that, tends to be the conversation rather than I've got a 2:1. Do you know what I mean? So I totally get that.

Yeah, definitely. Although that has changed a lot. So when our guys at Rule, uh, interview graduates, one of the first things we kind of focus on is, you know, the academia side. And if a candidate gets a 2:2, um, I mean, give you a bit of history, I've placed 3 people a third, and I've placed over 1,000 people in the recruitment industry.

So like, placed over 1,000 people?

Yeah, I've got a little black book with every single person I've ever placed. Really? Yeah, yeah, that's mental. Yeah, and only 3 have ever got 3rd. They've had amazing stories and they've had cracking personalities, but if it wasn't for that, you know, they wouldn't have got a job. So today people place such an emphasis on doing well at university. I think that's, uh, you know, a lot of people say, look, um, if you didn't, you know, I was described, would have been described at lazy university, and, you know, rightfully so. But when I first started in Rec2Rec, you could have a tutu from average university, play, you know, football for a sunny league team And if you could speak, you got a job in recruitment. And then in 2008, when the credit crunch happened, there was a big adjustment in, you know, what was the typical hiring strategy of companies. And suddenly, you know, business, you know, law wasn't hiring, banking wasn't hiring. And so you had these incredibly talented, highly academic students graduating, couldn't go into their first choice kind of industries, and so they were falling into recruitment.

Wow.

And ever since then, I think there's been a you know, if I'm honest, an unrealistic expectation of, you know, what the market can deliver en masse.

That's really interesting. So, okay then. So how— so just, just to help frame it up so everyone understands, worked in rec for 16 years, but kind of 16 years, obviously. Um, and then obviously, um, started Rule. How long did you start Rule?

Um, so Rule's been going— coming up to almost 5 years. So yeah, prior to that, I had 11 years experience working for another rec rec, SW6. Yeah, cool.

So, um, and then, uh, rule, what do you do now? So is it, so is it grads and experienced hires?

So our bread and butter as an agency is very much kind of the grad hire. You know, if somebody came to us with a mandate for, you know, trying for the graduate or 10 graduates, I'd be really confident we can do that. Um, however, uh, me personally kind of place people more like director, managing director level. Yes, we kind of COVID the whole spectrum. Um, but yeah, and that's kind of cross UK and overseas, but the majority of our business is kind of conducted in London.

Okay. And it's predominantly grads into recruitment businesses?

Yeah, that is changing. There's a lot of second jobbers in there.

Yeah.

So more kind of like—

so more someone who's got into recruitment, year experience, maybe a bit less, or—

yeah, I mean, candidate's king in this market. So if we have a candidate with 3 years experience, we can place them. We've got candidate with 5 years experience, we can place them. Um, so it's really what comes through a door to an extent.

Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. Okay.

Cool.

And then, and then prior to that, SW6, yeah, the same sort of thing.

Yeah, again, again, um, there was one person doing, um, you know, experienced guys. The rest of it was very much, um, you know, grad entry level. I mean, I haven't worked there for 5 years. Obviously they're a competitor of mine now, um, and as far as I'm aware, they still do that.

Where they started, he was doing that, it was sort of similar stuff that when you was there.

Yeah, I mean, when we first set SW6 up, it was, um, very much a grad grad model. Yeah.

So is your bread and butter then really being the grad piece?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Really?

Yeah.

And then more recently, you've been—

me personally, yeah, I do a lot more experience, which I really enjoy. And I think just because, um, you haven't done grad recruitment for a long time, it's just, it's nice to have a slight change. And I just think having, you know, slightly more gravitas in the market, largely because of, you know, being a bit older— I'm 40 next year— um, you just naturally, I did, you know, it's easy to deal with more senior candidates.

Yeah.

And so many people I've placed, you know, will come back to me, or so, so therefore it's just, you know, tapping to a slightly different candidate pool.

Okay, cool. So first thing that I'd love to get your thoughts on, let's just focus on the sort of more recent, uh, things and what you've been— what's been going on in your world, because it just makes sense to do that. So I guess what I'd love to know is like, so how, how do you sell recruitment to grads?

Do you know what, when I first started selling recruitment to graduates, like, you can earn 100 grand in your first year, you know, that is not the case, certainly not nowadays. I've only one person who's done that and, you know, no one else. Um, nowadays it's kind of— I sell, uh, recruitment very differently to how I probably sold it 15, 16 years ago. And I'd sell it as a career nowadays, really. So when I first started out, recruitment was kind of industry you'd work in for, you know, 2, 3 years. You'd work bloody hard, you'd earn a bit of money, you know, you'd buy a house, and, you know, before you're 30, you'd probably move on. Whereas recruitment nowadays, you know, um it gives a genuine opportunity to build a career. But in terms of sending these graduates, I just— the biggest thing I love about recruitment is, you know, a graduate could go into law, go into banking, go into dentistry, could be a nurse. But the one thing recruitment offers over any of those is a truly meritocratic industry where, um, if you do this, you'll be promoted to that. If you build this, you'll earn that. And I just love the black and white.

Yeah.

So my wife used to work in, you know, she was really senior board director of a, um, branding communication business, and You know, at the end of the year, her bonus was very much kind of like, mm, yeah, I think she's worth that. It wasn't tangible like in recruitment. And I think that's the beautiful thing about recruitment because, you know, you can whinge all you like that you haven't earned this and someone's been luckier, but results don't lie.

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. I think as soon as I got my first flavour of sales, there's no way that I could sit next to James who does the same job as me and does it half-assed and gets paid the same. I couldn't think of anything worse.

You say that, and funny enough, we're talking about this in the office today, and there are a number of recruitment agencies in the market that do exactly that. So they operate a team— where they operate a team commission basis. So, oh man, there are businesses out there where you have 5 people on a team, for example, the team bills X, they will pay the team 10%, and then the team split that pot.

And it doesn't matter what—

you know, sorry to buy in. Yeah, sure.

I spoke to someone— I'm not going to say the company, it might be a bit savage—

but I spoke to the—

I spoke to a guy.

There's a few.

That's about our affairs. I spoke to a guy who actually told me this the other day, and I was just like, no way.

And I don't understand. But they did—

they— but they don't know there's an alternative.

Well, this is the thing, and we talk about— so I give meetings and people say, well, why don't you put them for that company? I'm like, it's more difficult than you think. They've almost been brainwashed. Because what if I've worked, you know, 10 more hours than you in a week and I've billed twice as much? Why should I get paid the same? And yet when you approach people from these businesses is they kind of think, yeah, what you're selling, you know, you're selling isn't true. Um, and yeah, I just don't understand it. I mean, there are businesses out there that, you know, really do reward staff really well nowadays, um, because it's such a competitive market. But yeah, to work for a firm like that, yeah, I think you need to head out. Yeah, dreadful.

No way. I just couldn't do it. Team commission. Yeah, I can't believe that.

Especially capped at 10%.

I couldn't believe it. I actually couldn't believe it when I heard that. I was like, there's no way. Oh, there's no way I could have done it.

Well, some of the bigger organizations that, again, I won't mention You know, it's not team commission, but you know, they tend to pay the graduates, entry-level people, you know, decent level basic salaries, far more than, you know, what a lot of the majority of businesses I work with would pay. But they pay discretionary bonuses. So again, it's, you know, there are lots of companies in recruitment that do that. I just suppose more of the businesses I work with, perhaps, you know, tend to reward more in a meritocratic, you know, way.

I couldn't agree more. That's what I loved about working in recruitment, but particularly in sales, I was like, okay, so I'm in complete control of what I put in is what I get back sort of thing. And I couldn't agree more, I think that's great. So you more go down that route that what you put in, what you get out, and it is a career?

Yeah, definitely.

Do you— how, how do you think recruitment's a career now?

100%.

How do you like— how— because we spoke about this a lot, um, at the sort of live event, how sort of recruitment is actually really now becoming a profession and these types of things. Obviously it's a process and stuff, but Would you agree with that?

Yeah, definitely. Look, I know we shouldn't talk about age, but I'm going to, and it's to illustrate like an example. So 10 years ago, if you were 30, you were considered quite an old hat. You'd probably be a director in recruitment.

Yeah, that's mad.

Yeah. Um, nowadays, so for example, I was working with a candidate the other day who's got 17 years experience in B2B sales for a really, um, you know, for a decent car manufacturer. And he has joined a fintech recruiting business in London, and he's 40 years old, no recruitment experience, but he had the skill set. And there's no way that would have happened, um, kind of 10 years ago.

Well, there's a driver then. Why did that happen?

He just wanted to earn more money. He kind of capped out, and it was kind of like, well, I, I, I can't anymore in this. I know recruitment, I'm going to take a massive step back, but in 3, 4 years' time, I can exceed the earnings of earnings, which is good. But I mean, I suppose I use that point too I say demonstrate that recruitment has got, um, you know, a shelf life nowadays. You're getting people who are much older. I mean, I say I'm 40 next year and I don't feel anywhere near the end of my recruitment career, whereas perhaps 10 years ago I'd be thinking, oh my God, I'm like 40 next year, there's no way I can be in recruitment. And I think—

how much hair did you have when you started?

Not much more. Yeah, not much more, sadly. Uh, Yeah, so yeah, sadly. Although some people might say the fact it's ginger and it's going might be a blessing in disguise.

But no, you're totally right. So that would just never would have happened. I think that's amazing.

Yeah, definitely. And I just think that recruiting businesses on the whole have just kind of grown up. It's not, you know, of course there are those really, you know, kind of old school boy cowboy clubs where, you know, they bash graduates for 3, 4 years, you know, take a pound of flesh, spit them out, and then they get the next batch. Whereas there are so many businesses now that are doing things in a much more consultative way, it allows much more, I suppose, sophisticated, you know, more mature individuals to kind of like, you know, kick on their career.

So from your perspective then, how, how do you think we can— as you know, recruiters don't have the best reputation. Rec2rec's even more worse, worse than that, from what I understand, being in this sort of world of recruitment and moving to London and stuff. But on that note, it's something that we spoke about at the event. I'd love to get your perspective on because it's something that you're selling on a daily basis. Like, how do you think we can do more to, to actually showcase and communicate recruitment as a career choice?

I mean, look, there's always going to be recruiters who are going to be bashed because there's always going to be a client who gets frustrated with the service you deliver. You might not get a candidate that shows up. You know, there's so many, you know, factors out of your control as a recruiter.

Yeah.

That can have a really detrimental— and the most annoying thing is it often happens like buses. So if you get a candidate who drops out from a client meeting, you know there's gonna probably be 2 more, you know, candidates drop out from that client that week, and it makes you look really shit as an agency. But sometimes it's just down to, you know, pure unluck. In terms of, you know, creating a more consult environment, it's just giving people the opportunity to um, you know, do a good job. I think, um, recruiters nowadays are much more understanding of their markets. They, um, you know, I mean, I know technical recruiters, for example, who can learn how to code. You know, that never would have happened like 10, 15 years ago. And recruiters are properly understanding the market space. And I truly believe that, you know, you can add value. But, you know, there's 40,000 recruitment firms in UK. Yes, there's a lot of shit out there, but equally there are some really good businesses out there who offer like a really high you know, um, they offer a really high standard, um, solution.

Yeah, and obviously, to be fair, I don't— I don't— so obviously a lot of people would say, like, you always see on LinkedIn, like, people just bashing recruiters and stuff, but actually, and I actually never see that. But I think that's just because I'm recruited— it connects to, like, loads of recruiters and stuff. But, um, I think you're totally right. I think for me it's things like this and everything else, all the good stuff. There's so much great stuff that can be spoken about that recruitment agencies are doing that just need— that people need to be more loud about. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, in any industry you're going to get, you know, you get people kind of let them, um, the sector down, but equally you're going to get people who kind of like, you know, stand up, be counted, and like do a really good job. And I, I think just as human beings, you kind of focus on negativity too much, you know. It's often you're on TripAdvisor looking for a hotel, you get 5 people say it's absolutely shit, and you know, I would never go to a hotel and write about how amazing it is. But if you had a really bad experience, you might write about it. And I kind of think it's that. And I'm often told that a lot of—

that happened in recruitment at a point, didn't it? Do you remember that?

What's that?

There's like a— I can't remember what they were called, but someone tried to make a TripAdvisor for recruitment agencies.

They did.

Do you remember that?

Yeah, I do.

I'm pretty sure it's like flopped.

I don't know, and I won't say. And if—

but do you remember seeing that?

Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, it was by a fairly young guy who—

yeah, yeah, I know, I know who you're on about. Yeah, and then obviously, yeah, that's just changed like a million times.

Yeah, because, you know, I didn't think you really need an environment because like having those kind of portals, it's only going to encourage negative publicity. Um, look, 40% of our revenue at Rule comes from referrals.

Really?

Yeah.

Um, and that's so common in recruitment businesses.

It is if you do it well. And I think if you really look after a graduate, or what, anyone, any recruiter, uh, or, you know, any candidate, and you do a really good job and you literally wrap them up in, you know, cotton wool and you give them a really good experience, they're going to tell their friends and their friends and their friends and they're going to think about you. And I think so many people are so short-sighted about, you know, spot this, got to place this, got to do that, got to do that. But if you think about the bigger picture and actually offering a really good service then you will get repeat business. And, you know, I think so many recruiters are kind of like, you know, have that kind of outlook nowadays.

Um, while we're talking about this, I'd love to get your, um, opinion on, just to sort of tie in with this and talking about sort of recruitment as a career and how it's been perceived and stuff like this. How, how, how— so another sort of topic that a lot of people was talking about is to like talking about being a recruiter who's future-proof and what the future looks like and these types of things. Like, obviously you speak to businesses all day, recruitment businesses. Like, how, how do you see recruitment businesses thinking about the future and ensuring that they're future-proof? And what's your thoughts on that?

Look, I think it's really difficult to kind of future-proof yourself. And there will be businesses out there who are, you know, far more successful than, you know, we are, uh, and, you know, they will kind of talk about their strategies about doing that. But on the whole, it's really difficult to do it because I think if you— and especially with a difficult political and economical landscape at the moment, um, it's very difficult. You know, you look at things like the oil and gas market. The oil and gas market in 2009, 2010 was absolutely booming. You know, um, price of oil was around $140 a barrel. It dropped to $20, you know, $20 a barrel. And suddenly oil and gas recruitment, which kind of, you know, arguably saved the recruitment market, you know, for me back in 2010 when everything else was screwed, went under.

Um, so what did you learn through that period then? Because a lot of people listening wouldn't have been through that, do you know what I mean? So how do you make sure that— do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, I think you've got to look— it's a really difficult strategy because a lot of recruitment consultants talk about, uh, working an inch wide, mile deep market, and therefore you become a real expert in your market. Yeah, if your market gets hit, it means you're screwed. But then again, I speak to a lot of decent recruiters and they have the confidence in their ability where, by the sector they work in, is literally something that can be learned in 3, 6 months. But their ability to recruit is, you know, they can take with them from market to market.

Okay, that's interesting. So I'd love to get your opinion on this. What's your view on working for a bigger agency compared to a smaller agency?

Oh, okay, difficult, um, because I work with both. I mean, we do work with smaller agencies on the whole, and like any recruiter, it's more favorable. The terms are better, they move quicker, less process, can go directly to, you know, decision makers. Um, but for someone listening, it depends what stage you're at in your career, it depends what individual you are, because I think both opportunities lend themselves to, um, you know, potentially successful careers. And there's not anything saying you can't move between one the other. I don't see many people go from small business to big businesses, but you see a lot of people go from big businesses to small businesses. So I think the cons for, um, well, let's start the pros. I think the pros for big businesses are they give you a brand name, they give you really structured training, they can give you a ready-built kind of social life. It's kind of on a platform, it's not as difficult, especially in the market nowadays, it's so saturated. Telling a kind of grad who's you know, 3 weeks out of university going BD against a guy who's been doing it, you know, or girl who's been doing it, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 years, you're going to stand very little chance. Whereas in a big business, I think a brand name carries a lot of weight. You know, the cons are, uh, potentially a lot slower to progress because they've already got a brand name, they've worked hard to kind of get that, and they've done it all. Yeah, but, you know, certainly, certainly lower level commission. Um, in terms of, um, you know, working for a smaller agency, yeah, you might not get the same training. You're probably going to get direct training from somebody who's actually been there and done it and, you know, is at the top of the game. And I personally think that is invaluable. Um, there's also opportunity. So, you know, a small business will look to promote people rather than reasons not to promote people. Um, they tend to have much, uh, you know, uh, they tend to have less overhead, so they're not as nice offices, so therefore they can afford more commission. I mean, me personally, I would always prefer to work for a smaller agency because I think it presents more opportunity, but my reasons for wanting to do recruitment perhaps very different to someone else's.

So no, yeah, I was just interested to get your point on that. I mean, it makes complete sense. Everyone's individual, depends on what their objectives are, the type of person they are. But for me, yeah, I agree. I'd— I would always look— so I worked for like a big insurance company, then worked for a small insurance broker, then went into a, um, an 8-person recruitment agency. And I'd always personally pick that just because, as you said, having direct access to the owner of the business, that was just really invaluable to me.

Yeah, but I mean, just, just On that note, I think it makes a massive difference about who the owner of that business is.

Totally.

So if I'm selling against a small business, I will look at what the cash flow is on Companies House. I'll also then look at the pedigree of the person running that business. If that guy is— or lady, again— has been, um, you know, running a recruiting business for, you know, 10 years and they're 3 people big, I would kind of question the pedigree of that business.

Sure.

If there's someone who's built a maximum of £150 grand a year, have they got the ability to train you to be a 3, 100K biller? No.

Yeah.

Whereas if you look at some people who's done startup businesses, they've been 5, 6, 700, you know, K billers, or they've been CEOs of big businesses beforehand. They know how to do it. And I think joining someone on a journey, you need to be really careful about joining the right people because there are loads of small businesses that aren't going anywhere and probably won't go anywhere.

Really good point. On that point, please do be honest. I know you will be. But if I'm a recruiter right now listening and I am coming to a bit of a crossroads, obviously besides come and speak to Raul, but nonetheless, I'd really appreciate your advice on this for people. Like, if I've got a year's experience, 18 months experience, as you said, if you have someone come to you guys, you're very confident you'll place them. Um, no doubt if I've got that type of experience, I'm getting absolutely smashed by rec to recs, hitting, hit with LinkedIn messages all day. Phoned at my desk sometimes, maybe. But like old school. Yeah, old school. But like, if I, if I'm considering a move right now, I think you were just talking a bit about there, like really think about obviously who you are and what you want and the type of people you can learn from. But what, what should I really be looking out for? Like, what are the red— like, what are the red flags when I'm considering a move? Do you know what I mean? Like, what are the things that I need to be thinking about?

So I'd always encourage someone to have a look around the marketplace. I— it's amazing how many people you see have 4 years tenure in one recruiting business. Yeah, they leave and then they've left their next recruiting business in 4 or 5 months. And it's because they don't invest in the process. So then they're kind of scared perhaps going to be caught, they haven't got time to interview. So it's kind of like, go and see a couple of companies. Yeah, great, I'll accept the first thing that's offered. And perhaps, you know, put less effort in than when they were kind of graduating.

So that's the first good point then. Like, if you are gonna look around, yeah, actually really invest in the process and make sure you actually do look around.

I think the biggest thing that any candidate bases their decision on is around company culture. I think if you pick a business that you're going to be happy in, you're probably going to stay there. And company cultures can vary massively. So just to give you an idea, at Rule, we placed for 116 different recruiting businesses last year.

Oh wow.

Which is a lot. So that spans, uh, contingent and exec search, predominantly in London, um, a few overseas, few in the regions, but predominantly London. And those 116 businesses, you know, vary massively in terms of how much pay to spend base, what the training's like, what the culture's like, what office is like, what you get to wear, can you bring your dog? You know, it's just a million factors. So actually, being someone like myself who's been to meet all these companies, we really kind of profile. We get to find out— I think in mainstream recruitment, you look at someone's CV, you match it with a job spec, and you say, right, that person's coded 5 years in Python, they're perfect for that position. Whereas for me, it's much more about profiling someone's personality and match it with the company culture. And if we do that, it works. So we're really finding out about the person, and I think that's what we do really effectively as a rec to rec. How—

but how— if I'm— so obviously, without— besides obviously you telling me what that culture is like, let's say you're not involved. Yeah, yeah. How, how could— like, what would your advice be to try and soak up as much that culture as possible in that interview process? Um, because that's such a valid— it's that— it is that basically. It's like, if you are thinking about leaving then one, as you said, really invest in the process. And if you're doing it behind closed doors or whatever, and you might be more prone to just making a quick decision, which then means you might leave in 4 months because you didn't invest in the process— get that, great advice. But, and then clearly it's going to come down to the people, the culture, as you said, which is really important. But how can I, as someone that's considering a move, I mean, how— what, what's the best way for me to really try and get a grasp of that before I decide to join them? Do you know what I mean?

I think you need to kind of think about what you like about what you're doing, what you don't like, where you're struggling, you know, where you're kind of thriving, and then kind of think about what your, you know, main purposes are. So I think a lot of recruiters are bad at listening to their own advice. And if there is an itch, scratch it. And if there is that itch, think about exactly what you want, you know. Where do you want to be based? Like, I mean, for example, people have a bitch of a commute. That can put people off, you know. That is a big issue for you. You think about moving to an agency, it's like closer.

Yeah.

If you want an agency of less KPIs, join a smaller organization. If you want a thumping big base and that's really important to you over like a decent commission structure, then maybe join a bigger business if you want things more corporate. Again, it's— so there's so many different factors, um, it's kind of hard to, you know, give up.

But again, good advice, make the time to actually understand what you want more of, what you want less of.

Invest in recruiters. Do you know what, um, I think in recruitment consultancy you kind of get often— and this is obviously generalizing— we get the top 20% of people in a business who earn really well, they're really happy, they've got no desire to move, um, until, you know, one day an opportunity might come up, or, you know, perhaps moving out of London because of, you know, relocation, etc., might come up. But, you know, let's say they're happy, uh, you then kind of get the next, you know, batch of people who, you know, bill well, um, and relatively happy, and for most of the time, you know, they're pretty content in their job. And then you get like the bottom 20% of people who aren't particularly good and don't enjoy their job at all. And it's about which, I suppose, set of people you're looking to target.

Yeah.

Excuse me. But with the medium kind of like people, I suppose you just need to think about— it's really difficult to articulate, I suppose.

OK. That's all right.

I suppose there's so many questions that go around my head. So when I interview a candidate, it's not a case of, right, here's 4 questions, fill this out. And give me your answer. I hammer question after question after question after question after question. What are they billing? What are they doing? What market? Where do they want to be going? What do you want to be doing? And it's kind of building up a real almost mind map in my head of, you know, where these people should perhaps be, you know, focusing their attentions.

Totally get that. On this, on this topic of moving, looking at other agencies, what I should be thinking about— international recruitment, moving abroad. That's something that the recruitment skill set can definitely enable you to do. How much of that do you do?

Yeah, I mean, we place people, um, you know, all over the world.

Um, so what, what, what is the actual landscape of taking my recruitment skill set right now and moving to Australia or the USA or whatever? Like, what does that actually look like right now?

I think if you're a good recruiter and you haven't got a criminal record, you've got perhaps a degree in some cases, you know, it's fairly easy at the moment. It's getting is constantly changing around how many people they're hiring. So I'm sure you're aware that in Australia they've made it a little more difficult. You know, you have to earn, you know, employees have to pay their staff a certain amount of money. And in order to kind of justify that amount, you've probably got to have like 2, 3 years experience. Yeah. In the States, you know, a lot of businesses from the UK have moved up to the States and they've really thrived and they're making a huge amount of money out there. But I've been told by a number of clients in the last couple of months it's becoming increasingly more difficult to get out there. Really? But there are—

what sounds like to get your visa accepted and stuff like that.

Yeah, to get your visa approved. Um, and I just think that's kind of under, you know, Trump, um, it is becoming more difficult. Um, you know, there are other markets really picking up. So Amsterdam is becoming a real hub for people to move to, uh, Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg. Um, you know, I think recruitment companies are looking to come really global. And given the fact that, you know, the majority of, you know, really high-profile recruiting businesses that are established in London, you know, they're looking to kind of create a, uh, a global footprint, but also, you know, safeguard themselves against any kind of downturn or, you know, Brexit or, you know, anything.

Yeah, yeah. So anyone listening, there 100% is an opportunity to take their— I think that's such a great thing as well, isn't it? Like how— like how— not how easily, but like there's such an opportunity to take your skill set abroad, isn't there? Like that's, that's That's completely real, 100%.

But what's really weird is, okay, so I've got wife, kids, they're at school, I've got a house, got a mortgage, got a business. It's really difficult for me to kind of, you know, up sticks and move, although I'd love to live in the States. It'd be awesome if I was mid-20s with no dependents and I thought, you know what, it's gonna have like 2, 3 years of, you know, fun, maybe a bit more. I would 100% be out there. I mean The amount of money that US counterparts are billing against, you know, the UK recruiters is vast.

Is that real though? Is that real?

Look, I think as a rec-to-rec, or, you know, like any recruitment business, I'm fed the detail that I want to be— that I need to be sold, basically, so I sell it in the, you know, the right way. Um, but yeah, I, I think recruitment, um, over there, like, fees are often 25-30%. Yeah. Um, because of the strength of the dollar over the pound as well, um, you know, you're earning far more. It just you know, it's what, 300 million people live in the States?

Yeah.

Um, and there's—

it's also a few recruitment agencies as well. It's like totally different there. A lot of recruiters perceived way different.

Yeah, you know, if you, if you pick up the phone to a company in the States, they want to speak to you rather than, um, you know, somebody in the UK. There's often barriers.

Okay, so big billers How many of them are there in today's market? Like, do you know what I mean? How much has that changed?

You know what, it has changed a lot. Um, it— look, they're all without question million-pound billies in the marketplace. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And we, we work with a number of recruitment businesses who have, you know, a number of those people in there. Um, however, there aren't nearly as many as it used to be. I think kind of going back to the, you know, late '90s, early noughties, there were recruiters, you know, who basically lived like stockbrokers. They earned a lot of money because they could build really big, you know. It just wasn't saturated. I mean, just give you an idea, when I started Retroactive, there was probably about 5 Retroactive. There's probably about 5,005 now.

Yeah, loads now, aren't there?

Yeah, loads. Um, so it's, it's much more difficult now. Um, but arguably a lot of current businesses I meet are saying, look, although it'd be lovely to have a million pound biller, it's not great if they walk out the door because what's left behind them is like loads of people billing £100 grand. You know, you'd much rather have a strategy where you have you know, everyone bidding between 150 and 250 grand.

Yeah.

Um, so what is—

because again, I think this is— again, this is the sort of stuff that I wanted to have access to when I was in recruitment. Like, what, what would you say is like a— in terms of billings-wise, like, what is like a real good solid achievable amount that people can— that's like— so right now I might be listening, the top biller might be billing 180K. Do you know what I mean? However, there's gonna be a lot of other people that are billing more than that, but you obviously— so I had it a few times on, um, on this podcast where a real common topic that people ask me about is like, Hishem, I'm billing 150K and I'm really struggling to break the 200K mark. I love you, I'd love you to talk to people about how they've done that. I'm billing 250K, I want to break the 300K mark, etc., etc. And quite a few times when I've had people on here and they went from one agency to another agency, and, and the first agency, the top bidder was like $200K or whatever, and then they went to another agency, there's someone bidding $500K, and all of a sudden that becomes realistic. And that's, that's actually— I can actually do that. There's someone in this room doing that, do you know what I mean? So like, what's like a— I don't know, it'd be good if— what, what's your sort of thoughts on like, what is like a real good achievable amount that's like—

I think if I interview anyone, they're billing north of $200 grand, I consider them to be a pretty good recruiter. In today's market. Uh, you know, I think you're pretty exceptional if you're billing anything over like 400 or 500 grand. I think you're, you know, a really, really decent recruiter at that level. And, you know, anyone who's billing, yeah, say 7 figures is just a bit of a freak, if I'm honest. I think there's an element of luck to that. I think that, you know, right time, right place, right client called in. But also you occasionally get these individuals who, you know, make everyone else, you know, who think they're money hungry and think they're hardworking, you know, they're just, they're just different animals. Yeah. Um, But yeah, I think about 200 grand, but obviously it depends how long you've been in the business. But it's an interesting point. So I interviewed a candidate the other day and he considers his 185 grand to be amazing because the top biller in his business bills like 190 grand per month. And I'm like, look, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but you've got several years tenure. That is not great. You know, you could easily be working in a business that allows you to bill much more. He's like, well, how? I'm like, well, you work in a business that hires loads of graduates and therefore no one can see how to get to the next level.

Yeah.

But equally, the fee level you're working at as well might hinder you. So, you know, he was working on average of about £4,000 the fee, and it, you know, you have to do—

well, yeah, I was working about, yeah, £5,500 average fee. And that is— yeah, you're totally right. That's such a brilliant—

there is that fact. So many people say to me like, why do you do direct-to-rec? You know, the average fee is like £4,000 or £5,000. I'm like, you know, why do you say it's £20,000 average fee? I'm like, Okay, yeah, it's a fair point, but that candidate is worth £20 grand over my, you know, £5 grand is probably 4 times as likely, like, difficult to find or convince or find the right role for. I mean, a £200 grand biller in one market, you know, larger than a £200 grand biller in another market. And I kind of say that with a bit of hesitance because there are markets out there that I don't really work with. So we all work with specialist markets, that's like finance, banking, technology, digital, life sciences, legal markets. But there are—

why?

Um, I just think that's what I've always done. I think it's more specialist end of the market. It's probably easier to sell to high-level, uh, candidates. Okay, but if you take someone from like an education recruiting background or a service care or a health— I mean, I spoke to a candidate the other day and their billings were astronomical. I was like, you what? You build— like, they were shooting about 650 grand placing nurses.

Yeah, I've heard this recently.

Yeah, I've got— like 50 grand a year doing it. What? But, and anyone who owns those kind of businesses, they must be laughing because they pay the consultants bugger all money. But funny enough, a lot of our clients in the kind of like more specialist recruitment don't want to see these candidates because they've got no ability to—

well, transactional and stuff.

Well, it, it's just delivering into a framework, so it's basically like a glorified delivery role. So it's just, you know, matching candidate to role. And yeah, it's more of an administrative role.

Yeah, fair enough.

There's no skill around the business development, which, you know, is increasingly becoming more difficult, and therefore there's more emphasis put on, you know, BD than probably ever before when somebody's looking at a senior candidate.

Yeah, let's talk about that for a sec, because again, thinking about what people talk to me about and message me about, that 100% is definitely easily top 3 most common topic that people ask me about. Again, it's business development strategies. It's something that I find challenging. Why do you think it's become more challenging?

I think the obvious answer— there's 850 recruitment businesses in the UK set up every single month.

Yeah.

And if you're a hiring manager, the last thing you want is another recruiter, you know, phoning up and hammering you. Uh, and, you know, I spoke to, um, one recruitment agency, and, you know, he's a £1.5 million bidder himself. You know, he's phenomenal recruiter, and he says that for every new client he brings on board, he needs to make 50 degrees of separation. So, well, he basically needs to contact a new client 50 times. So that could be via email.

Well, I said that goes to like what, 50? Every new client he gets has been like 50, 50 points of contact. That's mental.

That could be, you know, and it obviously differs from market to market, but it just shows you, yeah. And he's a £1.5 million builder, so, you know, BD is becoming harder and harder the more saturated the market is. Um, yeah, I mean, if you think how much these hiring managers are hammered by, you know, recruiters, just means be insane.

What, what are the common things that you see in big billers in today's market?

Knowledge and work ethic.

Really?

Yeah, I think, I think that— look, there isn't— there is an element of luck.

Yeah, totally.

You get a lead, you call that client, they're like, we're after, you know, 100 contractors.

Totally, totally.

Wow, okay. And that does happen, but I think, um, the biggest thing is, is work ethic. And we did Around the Office in 37 Questions, as I know you know.

Yeah.

And, um, we asked one of the questions, yeah, what makes a top bidder? And every single CEO or MD replied, work ethic. And I know we try and make recruitment not all about, you know, it's working 12 hours a day, but how does this fit into flexible working, mate? It doesn't.

That is the thing though, isn't it?

Look, if you want to be successful— and I, I, I posted on LinkedIn the other day, it got an enormous amount of traction, which is really cool, because I say, look, if you want to be successful in anything— so I've— my best friend is a CEO of like a 500-600 man marketing agency. He's, he's 39 years old. World, which is incredible. But the guy works like till midnight every single night, you know. Um, I've got a mate who's a professional rugby player, like, in order to kind of bulk up, like, the guy was just never out of the gym, you know. I've got mates who are very successful lawyers, you know, partners in big law firms, and again, they've kind of worked 12, 13, 14 hours a day, you know. They've had a case come through, they've had to do something, they've had to drop the pans, they've had to work weekends. And I think the same as recruitment, like, it's so in your hands that if you want to be successful, you just work harder. Okay, largely.

No, no, no, I get that. I think, I think just, just to add to that, I think that was, as we were saying before we started this, it's obviously saying it's the, the Instagram life that— well, like, I just couldn't agree more that obviously it's so easy just to see the, that person at the end. Like, if you're talking about your mate as a rugby player or whatever, it's so easy to look at that person and go, oh God, they got it all right, haven't they? And like, you just see the you don't see all of the sacrifice and you don't see all the stuff behind. Yeah, do you know what I mean?

You see anyone, um, you know, uh, kind of be successful, drive a nice car, wear a nice watch, live in a nice house, you know, unless they've inherited it or married into it or won it or nicked it, they've had to— actually, there's quite a few ways to earn it, but they've had to work. They've had to really, yeah, you know, work hard. And, you know, think, you know, I don't I think success comes about a lot of, you know, of hard work. But I'd say the other thing as well is differentiating yourself away from your competition. And that for me is really understanding your marketing and really understanding your product. So I think there are recruiters out there who, you know, take great pride and great effort to really learn how their market works. So there's a very well-known recruiter we all know, I won't mention him, but he was, you know, he's just recently sold a very, you know, big recruitment agency for, a lot of money. And he was, um, you know, started his career at S3, he is top biller there, um, and he had a year's, um, you know, uh, where he couldn't, you know, touch any of his clients.

Yeah.

So he decided he's going to be a trader, and he was a trader for a year, and he came back and set up his business, and he built 700 grand from his bedroom in his first year.

Cheers.

And it was just because, you know, A, yes, work ethic, but B, really understanding his, you know, market. So, you know, I think if you want to get to those kind of levels, yeah, it's kind of a bit of a combination of both.

What— so then, like, if I'm listening right now and, like, what, what's like the things that you think about when it's like, right, how can I get— how can I really know my market more? Do you know what I mean? What the typical thing— what are the things that come to mind for you when you're thinking, like, that's your advice? Do you know what I mean? What things come to mind?

So the first things come to mind, I just speak to people. I don't think there's anything more powerful than having conversation with someone. And the other thing is saying— I really struggle with when I was young, and I watched kind of the more genius, you know, um, staff in our business at Rule they struggle to ask questions because they're scared to not know the answer. So yeah, so I would go for a meeting and, you know, client be rapping on about this and that and use acronyms everywhere. I don't know what they're talking about. And, you know, nowadays I'm not scared not to know, and I say, look, I don't mean to be ignorant, but what do you mean by that? Or how does this work? Or, you know, what you, you know, refer to as you got older. Yeah, definitely. I think you just kind of get a bit more comfortable in your own skin. Yeah, I think when you're a bit younger, it's kind of a case I need to know everything. I need to impress, you know. There's no way I can kind of admit, you know, a, a, um, you know, chink in my armor.

So right. So, and that, that— okay, no, I like that. That's come out— that's actually come up a couple of times. The chap that I had on before, I've nicked it, I promise. No, no, I had a chap before, tech recruiting, and he was like, my biggest realization where things really start to start to happen was like, just don't be afraid to ask stupid questions. And, um, so I think that's great advice. So I think that's really interesting that every CEO that you've asked have always said work work ethic. And I think, look, flexible working and this sort of stuff is— that's, that is so— that's everywhere. And I get— and I totally get that. However, there's also got to be a real conversation around if you, if you want this and these are your ambitions, well, guess what, like, yeah, there's got to be an element of sacrifice.

Do you know what, there's got to be— yeah, there has to be sacrifice and you have to work hard. But I'm kind of thinking, why she was just speaking there, you could be the hardest working room, but if you don't have you know, the charisma or the ability to turn it on when it's required or close someone, you're not going to make deals either.

Yeah.

So there is—

you've got to be working on the right— you've got to be doing the right things.

We could be working the right market as well. So for example, you know, recruiting across lots of different markets, you'll be amazed by how much the top biller from one business, say in tax, differs from a top biller in, um, I know, life sciences. You know, just the whole personality, the whole—

really?

Yeah, it's it's very, very different.

How do you know if the market's for you then?

I think you need to almost mirror your market. So if you perhaps are like—

if you get along with people, you mean?

Yeah, not necessarily. Like, I think, I think what we do in Rec2Rec, you know, we're selling to salespeople. So therefore I think it's important you have, you know, a fairly banterous personality and you can kind of like, uh, you know, just, just have a very kind of informal, candid, low-level conversation with people because recruiters and, you know, salespeople, they tend to, you know, think more with their heart rather than their head.

Yeah.

But if you're speaking to someone, you know, who works perhaps in private equity, they're probably going to come from, you know, uh, you know, an Oxbridge, and they can bring, you know, incredibly intelligent— they're probably gonna have much more kind of high-level, intense, uh, in-depth conversations.

Yeah.

So therefore, personality— there's no way that I could work in that market because I just— well, as I've told you at the beginning, I got a 2:2 from a distinctly average university.

And what What are the sort of really exciting markets at the moment that you're seeing?

Look, technology without doubt is the boom market at the moment. It has been that way for a while.

So many tech recruiters though.

There are. A few years ago—

So many.

Well, a few years ago there was kind of the breakoff, and kind of this new market was established in digital. Think about your phone. Everything you use nowadays is digital. But yeah, tech kind of is just driving everything forwards.

It's so saturated though.

It is, but it's saturated for a reason. There's still so much, you know, money and desire and appetite. So I think working in direct-to-rec, you can really get a sense of what the market's doing because you can see which companies from which sector are hiring.

Yeah.

And technology is honestly, it's just been relentless for the last 2, 3 years. Absolutely. You've seen other markets shut off a little bit, uh, and not done as well.

What was that?

Sorry. So banking has really struggled, I think, in the last, um, you know, couple of years. I think, you know, I think they've had a pretty hard time with it. Um, but other markets, you know, do things like, um, you know, Brexit, like compliance and risk and corporate governance have probably done quite well.

Um, anything to keep an eye on that, that you're sort of interested in, or is it literally tech that really comes to mind when we're thinking of markets? Or is there anything that you—

yeah, there are markets outside of what I do, like I say, like healthcare, etc., and service care, and those markets I think are doing well. You know, people's you know, living older and this and that, like that's kind of driving that, that. But, um, yeah, within the mainstream recruitment, law's doing really well. Legal's another market.

I've heard people making some cash.

Do you know what, a lot of the biggest billers I know work in legal recruitment, really, you know, because what they do is they shift, um, partners— but where they shift partners of UK firms into American firms that pay them extortion amounts of money, like we're talking massive 7-figure salaries, really. Just to get them in. So, you know, there's a lot of 7-figure billers in the legal market, really. But it's like an old-school building network. You need to work it. You need to kind of like—

Yeah, I've heard that. Whereas I think business done over like a beer or— Yeah, like, really like that type of sort of environment.

You've built a real reputation for yourself. Whereas I think tech is so much more down to kind of like, yes, knowledge, and there's lots of skill, etc., etc. But it is down to work that you can see some people build big in tech, you know, 2, 3 years into their career, which would never happen in the legal market.

Um, what, what, what are sort of the things that you're seeing that, uh, the, um, be interesting again to flip this. We're talking about what people should be looking out for in these types of things, but where, where do you think a lot of recruiters that you speak to, um, sort of fall short? And what, what I mean by that is like, as you speak to recruiters and grads, etc., all day, and your team does What do you think of the sort of just common, like, expectations that people have that is just, just so far from, like, what's the reality and stuff? Do you know what I mean? What are the common things that people could be listening that they— do you know what I mean? What are the common things that people just— the expectations aren't right, they're not, they're just so far from reality?

If that's in terms of what they saw the interview—

yeah, like, just maybe I'm not being very clear. It's like, so if I'm a recruit right now and, and you're speaking to me I mean, I've been in my four walls and like my expectation of, I don't know, move, move into a firm and getting a salary increase of X, it's just so far off the mark. You're like, honestly, I know this market is not correct, but I don't know, I just thought we've spoken a lot about positives and stuff, but I thought obviously again, you, you speak to people that listen all day and yeah, I think the big—

I think the biggest— do you know what, the biggest one at the moment is, um, people wanting to go into internal recruitment. Really? Yeah, it's obscene. I, I'm approached 40 times a week by people with a year's recruitment experience who want to go internal.

Okay.

And I'm kind of like, okay, why? And they're like, well, you know, it's going to be, you know, I'm going to get a nice big base salary and they're going to be 9 to 5. And I'm like, yeah, that is potentially the case, but have you ever thought that you're going to be a glorified resourcer? Because as an internal recruiter, all you're going to do is source candidates unless you're at a level of like 10 years experience when actually you start getting invested in the strategy and yeah, you know, this and that. But you know, certainly some of the years experience, they're like, yeah, I want to move in internal recruitment, want 35, 40K base. I'm like, you're dreaming, it's not going to happen. And the reason you want to do that is because you can't hack agency life. And agency life is, you know, I champion recruitment, I think it's an awesome career to get into, but I always say to people, getting into recruitment is a bit like joining the gym in January. I will be one of those people who, you know, is ferociously doing sit-ups, watching what I eat, not drinking. And about the second, you know, week in January, I think, I'll sod this. And I will also be that individual that is walking on the beach in July thinking, oh shit, I wish I had a six-pack. And I see the guy opposite me thinking, oh damn. And he is the kind of person that probably got up every single morning, went to the gym, worked hard, watched what he ate, and probably think it wasn't that difficult. And recruitment's exactly the same. If you, you know, have a, you know, understanding that this is not going to happen overnight, work really hard for 1 to 2 years. I mean, what other career can you join other than recruitment where you can actually, you know, outside of, you know, banking, where you can earn the kind of money you can do in recruitment and, you know, progress as quick? You know, we have amazing clients where they've got directors who've been in the business 5 years out of graduating. That doesn't happen in any other industry. And it's kind of a case that work hard, suck it up, know it's gonna be bloody hard, but the rewards if you keep going for it will be good.

No, I'm glad you spoke about that. That's what I was sort of digging for, so I'm glad you got to that point. Maybe I wasn't very clear, but I think that's a really interesting point that more you've seen a real influx of people that wanted to go internal. And I think, I think that's fair to say that that's probably a real good reason as to why people are thinking about that. So just what you're talking about there is resilience. Yeah, mindset. I know you said at the beginning of this, like, that obviously your whole sort of life experience and upbringing, upbringing, and, and helped you probably where you are now. And you said that you have really good resilience. I think what you're talking about there, which again I'm confident that a lot of CEOs would say is quite common in, in their, in their top buildings and stuff, is that resilience piece. And to, to be willing to brush it off and carry on. How, how have you— I'm sure this is something you've had to cultivate in the people in your business and something that you've continued to cultivate for yourself. So I guess what's been your experience with that that you can share?

I think it's been really important to hire people who can display that they have had to be resilient, and that doesn't necessarily come from sport or this. It's just, you know, perhaps they've had a really tough upbringing and they've had to just keep fighting, or You know, there's so many examples. I mean, sport is an obvious one, but I think, I think choosing the right people to start off with who haven't been given everything on a plate. So when it doesn't go their own way, I think a lot of people kind of, you know, get into the recruitment world and it doesn't go their own way and they've got a fallback option. I think people who kind of like, I haven't got anything else to choose, I need to make this work. They're the kind of individuals do really well. But resilience, without doubt. I mean, I used to run a lot of assessment days for businesses around the city, and we used to talk about, you know, what makes a good recruiter. And, you know, people used to shout out, you know, competitive, confident, motivated, resilient, ambitious. And when you kind of break them all down, you know, very few were a skill set. They were all attitudes, with resilience probably being the number one. And it is, it is so important, especially in those first few years. But like, even as like somebody's been doing the job 16 years, like, there are days where I want to, you know, kind of just curl in a ball and cry because nothing's gone your way.

Yeah.

And that never goes away.

How have you got better at dealing with that though, you personally? Because I'm sure some people can learn from that.

In my day-to-day job, it's— I suppose being a creator is making sure you've got pipeline so that if you have one thing fall out, you've got another positive thing to focus on.

So never always have— just be relying on one thing.

No, because I think if you're always, you know, if you're relying everything on that, it's really detrimental. Like, it puts, you know, all your focus goes into that negativity, whereas actually if you've got, you know, two more good candidates, you can think, oh, you know, bugger it, it didn't go my way, but you're focusing on those two people. And I think that really, really helps. But, you know, resilience comes in many forms, I suppose. And you could, you know, look at the people I've hired over the years, and they would all have so many different stories about why they're resilient.

Really?

Yeah. Okay. And do you know what, it's a really difficult thing to kind of like judge an interview. I know we all kind of like try and ask for examples.

Yeah, it must be hard.

It is. And you don't really get to understand somebody's true colors until they've perhaps been doing a job a while. I mean, for example, we've got the guy, a guy in our office, and he has just been so unlucky. Like everything's gone against him. Like he's had fine after fine after fine not going. He's been with us probably about 2 months and the guy comes in every day smiling. The guy, you know, gets in first, he leaves last, and you just think, you know what, he will get it because, yeah, he will do. It's too easy to give up.

I think that's a really important thing to note that though, isn't it? Like, it's what you're talking about there is that it's the activities and the things that he's doing on a daily basis that gives you the confidence. You know what, actually he's hit the post a lot of times, but he is, he is gonna, he's gonna get it and it is going to click and it is going to happen for him.

Yeah, definitely.

That's a really important thing, that if it isn't happening for you, well, make sure that at least you're not— you are still doing the right activities and giving yourself every opportunity you can to get it right. Do you know what I mean? I think that's just— it's such an important— like, that's what I got a lot of, because I, as I openly say, I built fuck all my first year. 24K, mate. Yeah, but like, I sat directly next to you and you own the business, and he said to me, Hishem, keep doing what you're doing. You've hit the post a lot, but like, it's gonna pay off. I just know it is. Just keep doing what you're doing. And like, I just think that's such an important thing to, to make sure that you are doing. If you are having a struggling month, if you are having a bit of a shit year.

But the one thing that really frustrates me is how people talk about recruitment being like, it's really hard. Like, recruitment is not hard. Like, being successful is hard. And again, I made a post about this the other day, and you can look at sportsmen. Like, I mean, let's take a batsman in cricket. Like, they could be absolutely on fire, and suddenly they go through a summer of just absolute turmoil.

Yeah.

And, you know, their confidence drops to an all-time low. But, or, you know, Andy Murray's 2 sets down.

Yeah.

You, you need to have that kind of— it doesn't matter what job you do, recruitment isn't tough. You know, any job, to be successful, you have to work hard, you have to kind of, you know, counter, um, you know, knockbacks, you have to work hard. Um, it's just the difference is in recruitment, you can come from not doing it in what, having done it ever, and in 2 years be, you know, prolific in the job. Yeah, perhaps not prolific, but, you know, I know you mean certainly, you know, very capable.

I know what you mean. Um, what's been some of the, the big learnings that you've experienced having your own business, mate? What, how have you found that?

Um, yeah, yes, do you know what, running your own business, as you know, uh, it's amazing there's loads of highs, there's loads of lows. Um, as long as you keep like a really level head, I think that's a good thing. Um, yeah, I could probably give you a million highs, could probably give you— and it depends, you know, what happens in a day. Like, we've just had a really good month and we've had a really good day and everyone's in really good mood, and so I'm kind of feeling really positive about things, you know. Equally, I could go into the office on Monday and we've had X amount of dropouts, or you know, all our clients are, you know, shut off hiring, and I might have a very different—

yeah, I know you mean—

outlook on it. And I think that's very typical of recruiters, is, you know, when they're in the job they don't like, they're really grumpy and they hate their life Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Thursday, shit, it's Thursday, Thursday, life's brilliant, go out, get pissed. Friday, bacon rolls, and it's the weekend. And I think a lot of recruiters kind of forget, you know, even though they're unhappy in the role, they kind of don't do anything about it, and it kind of comes back back to that. Like, it's— if—

but if you were speaking to someone that was— that listened to this podcast and they're thinking about starting their own agency, what sort of comes to mind in terms of some of the things that you'd be speaking to them about, or, or make sure that you got across that they knew or thought about before they start their own agency?

Uh, look, without being too boring, cash flow is king. Yeah, um, it really is. So the amount of recruiting businesses I see who, you know, spend a fortune on entertainment, you know, taking their staff on amazing holidays, amazing offices, but yet they've got no money in the bank. It doesn't make any sense for them. So, you know, there'll be a situation, for example, if we had a downturn in the market, you'll see a lot of companies go bust because they kind of live, you know, hand to mouth and it's month to month. So cash flow is always king in any business. Aside from that, it's just having a really clear vision. And this isn't me kind of speaking from my own experience. It's more kind of, you know, meeting so many recruitment owners or businesses, looking at the successful ones and seeing what they do. They have a very clear vision of what they want to do. And it's kind of, right, this year we need to, you know, hire this many people. This is the markets we need to move in. And they know exactly what they're going to do.

And has that typically come from the beginning, you found?

What's that?

Sorry, has that typically come for the people you're talking about? Has that typically come from German? Because that can be quite difficult to start, can't it?

Yeah, started off as lifestyle businesses.

Yeah.

And it's been— it's just like a couple of people in the room done really well, you know, kind of found their way, just, just enjoyed life, and they've kind of thought, actually, I want to establish something. And, you know, they've then built something a lot more kind of, um, not credible, but just professional and slick and, um, you know, more structured.

All right. Um, what, what is on this sort of company topic at the start?

Stuff.

What's like the worst company perk that you've seen?

The worst company perk?

I'm sure you've seen some bad ones. Oh, you've got to sell them, mate.

That's a really difficult thing. As a recruiter, you wouldn't believe this, but I'm only used to saying the best things about something. It's like, yeah, you want to join this business, but this perk's really shit.

Um, but just some of the things you've got— no way is that like a selling point, you know what I mean?

Uh, Free fruit really does my nut in. I'm like, we have free fruit in the office.

And why is that a perk?

And but why is that a perk? Okay, another one is, um, ride, cycle to work. So basically the company would buy your bike. That's something that the government set out as a mandatory, as a mandatory thing. Like, you don't have any option about it. So it's like, yeah, but the free fruit kind of gets me. It's like, you know, if you need to, you know, persuade someone to come and join you by buying them a 15p apple, then, uh, it's kind of like—

what— just on this note, I, again, keen to get your thoughts. I think, what, what do you think recruitment businesses need to— as you said, you place with over 100 recruitment businesses. What do you think that people listening, maybe they're recruiting for their team or whatever, like, what, what do you think people can do way better to, to make them stand out? Everyone says they're different, everyone says they're unique, but Yeah, look, um, yeah, so that was 116 last year.

Like, in terms of my career, I've probably placed well over like 400 businesses.

Yeah.

Um, but, uh, in terms of salespeople are very simple individuals, I think. And I don't mean any offense by that, but what I mean by that is we buy of people we like.

Yeah.

And you can go for an interview with someone and they can give a very professional detail about what the business is and give you like a really amazing visionary But if it's very static and it doesn't kind of— they don't engage with you on like a social level, you're never going to kind of win, I don't think. I think the best businesses, um, who attract, you know, staff really well, they treat them as people. So they kind of like build really amazing relationships with them. They, uh, you know, show them, um, they're very honest. Yeah, actually, candidates respond really well to honesty nowadays. It's like, look, this is what we really struggle with, or this is a candidate we've had, he's worked for 6 months, they really struggle, they didn't make a deal for the first 5 months. 'But this is how we developed them, this is how we brought them out the other side.' And kind of giving honest case studies, I think, is a really big thing. But the biggest thing is a candidate being able to visualise what it's like to work for that business before they've even started.

Yeah.

You know, it's amazing how many of my clients, for example, won't show a candidate around the office, which I think is bizarre.

That's mental.

If you're gonna work, what, 10, 11 hours a day?

No, that is mental.

It's like first day.

Yeah, no, I was just keen to get— I think that's some really good points. I think what I've seen in the sort of world that I'm in now is what I've seen. I did a post about this the other day. Like, what I've seen being like, it's so simple but it's been like really effective, is like if you're recruiting for your recruitment business and you're selling, you're allowing, like you just said there, visualize what it'd like to be work there. And you can very easily allow me to have a bit of a window into raw recruitment, you know what I mean? If that's you, um, showcasing the people in your business, celebrating their successes, being honest with some of the milestones that you've hit or some of the ones that you struggle to hit for me, what I've seen, that's gone down actually really well. For me, I don't know if you agree with this, but for me, there's so many sort of business leaders in recruitment agencies that actually, they could be absolutely brilliant, but they actually don't have a face at all online. Yeah, they just look the same.

Yeah.

And that, it's actually been crazy that I could be a recruitment business owner right now and I could actually start taking pictures of when I bring out a birthday cake for someone's happy birthday, or just take a picture of people when they've hit a certain milestone or whatever, and that could actually then enable me to engage with some experienced hires. That was actually mental.

Case study is the most powerful way of selling, no doubt about it. Because yeah, I mean, you can talk about, um, about this and about that, and you know, to a candidate, they know they're set opposite a slick salesperson. So, you know, that is always going to be fabricated and exaggerated to a degree. But giving real-life examples— I often think those examples coming from the individual themselves, like, is a more powerful thing. Um, yeah, definitely. But it's amazing how people— many people don't kind of showcase, you know, their offering. But it's equally amazing how many people do showcase their offering, kind of, and yet that's what they're all about. I call it this kind of Instagram era of recruitment where everyone's, you know— I'm not sure about you, but everyone I follow on Instagram, it's like, I'm on a beach, I'm skiing, I'm at a restaurant.

It's lacking that honesty.

There's not never like, fuck my kids up at like 3 o'clock 'clock in the morning, and, you know, or, you know, my milk's gone sour.

You're totally right to pick up on that because then it's like that honesty that really resonates with people because that's what— that's the reality of people's lives rather than just always being in Ibiza because we hit our big biller target, you know what I mean?

The problem is that every single recruitment business have those kind of incentives nowadays. So this is one of the difficult things for me as a rec-to-rec is actually approaching people and saying, look, you're in this business, I know what this business is to work for, trust me, I really understand this market, there's not a million years I'd ever work for your business, there are a plethora of like businesses out there that are so much— I don't know, just they've got everything your business hasn't, like from support, from nice culture. They don't bash you with KPIs, they make you work 12 hours a day, they actually pay you and reward you. They want to pay out big paychecks.

Yeah.

Um, and it's kind of— but because there's so much publicity online, there's a real— I think it's a, a real difficulty of getting people to understand that there is that. And the grass can be green— greener over, yeah, you're talking bollocks, you're just trying to sell me a role.

Yeah, yeah. On this, just before we finish, I think again I'm just thinking of like what people— what— how you can give a lot of value to people listening. Commission structures. Yeah, what's a good commission structure, mate?

It's funny because every single client I go to, they're always like, I think it depends how you set your agency up. You know, some agencies will really incentivize, um, you know, top billers. So for example, I've got a client who will pay you 50 50% for anything you bill above £500 grand.

Really?

They've got about 300, 400, 300, 400, 500K billers, so they're earning like £250, £300 grand a year.

Whoa, they'll pay you 50% if you hit £500K?

On everything, which is exceptional. There are other recruitment businesses out there that will incentivize the masses, but if you're a really big biller, you're not going to get, you know, a massive— What about a decent— Look, the rule is in, in a recruitment business is is you should earn a third, a business should earn a third, and a third should go on operation cost.

Okay, so a third.

A third is what you should earn, including your base.

Yeah, so look at your billings and be like, right, I should be earning about a third. That's a good sort of benchmark.

Yeah, if you're not earning a third of your billings, then you're in the wrong business. There's no doubt about it.

Yeah. What's basic salary? I feel like this has gone up. So when I was in recruitment, what's the crap with that?

Well, look, the market is that we've mentioned before is so saturated. Companies are kind of thinking you know, how do we attract people? And base salary is obviously one of the easiest ways. Um, I mean, base salaries and recruitment have not gone up a huge amount over the years. I mean, when I first started recruitment, I think I was paid about £16k base, but I was like 16 years ago.

I started on like a £17k base.

Yeah, my rent was £400 a month. I lived in a really nice mews house in Wandsworth Common. Like, I reckon if you pay £400 a month now, you'd be in the garage. And yeah, you know, yeah, yeah.

So like, what— what— again, I think, again, you're in a unique position, do you know what I mean? People may not know this. Yeah. Decent base. What's that like these days?

So the top end of the kind of graduate market is paying around about £25K. I'd say the average is around about £22,000, £23,000. Um, some of the years experience, £28,000, £30,000. But this is where recruitment consultants—

years experience, £28,000, £30,000.

But this is what say. Sorry, there's so many different permutations because you could have someone with 2 years experience in recruitment who bills £300,000 a year, and you could feasibly have someone with 2 years experience in recruitment who bills 80 grand a year. So it's so down to, yeah, to the level they've been at, you know, and also, you know, how much business they bring in. Yeah, but yeah, but salary, salary, you know, basic salary's gone up, you know, dramatically.

Really? Okay.

I think, I think, I just think again, because recruitment— again, go back to what we're talking about earlier and talking about recruitment becoming career.

Yeah, that's true.

It's not so much, you know, when I started it was all about low, low base salaries, high, you know, commission opportunities, estate agency style. Yeah. And nowadays, like like that doesn't wash. People actually, you know, because recruitment is starting to compete against, you know, professional services, you know, jobs and, you know, other jobs. I think people are seeing it more as career, and therefore they want the base salary that comes with that a little bit.

Okay, before, um, before I ask you sort of what you're excited about and stuff and we finish, what 2020 and beyond, what, what you thinking, mate? How does next year look like recruitment-wise?

Do you know what, The— there's so many clients saying they're looking next year already, and they've got really big kind of aggressive, um, kind of expansion plans. And that's really exciting, like really exciting. Um, you know, the overall recruitment market in the UK looks like it's going to expand. Um, I, I ask my clients about Brexit, you know, all the time, and so many companies have kind of, you know, tried to, um, mitigate themselves from those kind of, uh, downturns in the market by by, you know, work in Europe or work in this, you know, in America, or working, you know, high-level roles are going to be necessary, uh, you know, they're going to still be out there. Um, but yeah, I think 2020, 2020 looks good. There's not, there's not many people who are saying, yeah, it looks like it's, yeah, the world's about to fall apart.

So before I ask you the final question, what, um, what are you excited about, mate? What's going on in your world that you want to shout about? What's going on?

Okay, that's a really difficult question. I, I, my life is recruitment, so what are you excited about?

You obviously So anyone that has it— it's 37, isn't it? Sorry, it's the videos that you did.

Oh, Around the Office in 37 Questions.

Yeah, so if anyone hasn't seen Around the Office in 37 Questions, I thought they're brilliant.

Thank you.

Um, but yeah, well, like, what— I don't know, is there anything you want to shout about? What are you excited about that's going on in your world?

Um, look, I think we've got some exciting plans at Rule next year. Um, we're kind of trying to train the guys, um, to work a much more senior level market because the demand in, you know, recruitment for senior professionals, it's got to be the most buoyant recruitment market there is, really. And I, I think there are a lot of people working in my industry, but there aren't a lot of people who perhaps, you know, are up to the level where they've got— can add as much value, um, you know, in, in terms of, um, you know, other things. That's it. Yeah, that's it. You put me on the spot, Shane. I'm trying to think. I mean, plugged in to talk about recruitment. Anything else?

All right, last question. Can I ask you a question then?

Yeah, of course.

If you could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they take on your advice, they'd listen, they implement it— it could be a phrase, a word— what would you say, mate?

I'm sorry, I can't do this in words, so brace yourself everyone. Um, I suppose is, you know, listen to your own advice. I think recruiters are really scared about being caught, or, or scared that there isn't something out there. I think if you've got a notion that you're not working for the right recruiting business, it doesn't mean recruitment's not for you. And we speak to so many recruiters who say, yeah, I've done recruitment, I I just fucking hate it. Excuse my language. And I'm like, just because, look, if I went for an Indian and I had a really bad Indian, it certainly wouldn't put me off Indian for the rest of my life. And I think being open enough to kind of think, you know what, I'm going to go have a look at another 4 or 5 agencies and see what's out there. And if you come away and think, you know what, it's not for me, then walk away. But you know, I think sometimes knowing what you don't want in life helps you know what you do want.

Yeah.

And if you actually think, you know, wow, like, I can't believe how different that recruitment agency is to my recruitment agency, because that's the biggest thing I get speaking to people of like 2, 3 years experience. They can't actually believe how different it is, um, to their own kind of experience. So I kind of just say, look, if you've got any doubts, go and have a look at the market. You don't have to commit to anything, but just knowing what you don't want will help you know what you want.

No, I think that's great advice, mate. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, James.

Cheers, buddy. I really enjoyed it.