Jamie Fraser - Structure, Focus and Discipline are the three ways to be successful.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm joined by Jamie Fraser, who is the director of a recruitment agency called Interex, who are a Microsoft and cloud specialist agency. Yeah, got that right the second time. Yeah, Jamie, thank you for joining me.

Yep.

Um, we're in— to set the scene, we're in the heart of London. Bang. How long have you been in, in this office?

This is on Cornhill, uh, about a year now. Really? Yeah.

Okay, cool. And how many people have you got out there? Because it seems quite big.

Yeah, 15.

15. How many, how many people can this fit, this office?

We will get probably about 35 people in here. Yeah.

Okay.

By the end of next year.

Definitely want to talk about where you was last year. But, um, that's where we are. And as I was, as I was saying to you, mate, before, um, where I always like to start is how, how the hell did Jamie Fraser get into recruitment, mate? Share this story with us. How did that happen?

Left school, didn't really like school, if I'm honest with you. Wasn't the type of person that, let's say, enjoyed being told what to do all the time. Yeah. Yeah, I left school quite early actually. And I've always been one, I've always wanted to work. I've always had a drive and ambition to want to do something where I wanted to be like the best that I possibly could be. Fell into recruitment. I was applying for actual, uh, generic banking jobs at the time.

And that's because you thought bankers make loads of money?

I wasn't— I didn't have a clue. Yeah, I was young, I was young. Um, and the company I went to, Reed, at the time was actually doing an intern, which I, I took on.

Yeah.

Um, done the internship and it went from there.

So that was— so that's how you ended up in recruitment?

Okay.

Where did The sort of you not— you just always wanted to work and be the best you could be. Where did that come from? Was that influenced by your parents at all, or where did that— because that's interesting, because how many— I'm sure you've met loads of people, and of course you meet so many people that don't have that. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Where, where did that, where did that come from?

So I've always relied on myself to do things. Don't get wrong, like my mum helped, has always helped me out, as they do, um, but I've always— everything that I've done, I've got myself in life, really. Yeah, so, you know, I've always been the type of person I want to be the best at anything I do.

Super competitive.

Yeah, correct. Really? But, you know, people talk about competitive, but they're not, you know.

What do you mean?

You know, like they say, oh yeah, I'm really— I've interviewed people that say I'm really competitive, but there's no real facts behind it.

Yeah.

Everything I do has to be the best, you know. I've got OCD, I'm a perfectionist in everything I do, so everything has to be at a higher standard. And, you know, Like I say, anything that I do do in life, whether that's sport, non-sport, whatever it is, I want it to be as best as it can be.

Yeah. And that— is that just become natural to you then? Yeah.

Really? Yeah.

That's interesting. Okay, so did you realize that you— so when you ended up at Reed, yeah, did you realize like you was applying for a recruitment job at that point, or they— did they just speak to you about—

no, it wasn't— I didn't apply for it. Like I said, I was, I was young at the time.

How old was you?

I think 17. I don't— I didn't really think, right, recruitment. Yeah, you know, same with my brother. My brother is in recruitment, he owns a recruitment business too, and he, he got into recruitment via me because he was doing lettings. So we never knew what recruitment is.

Yeah, yeah, or was, um, and we just fell into it because, like, what was your perception at that point? That you had no perception at all?

Nothing, really. Yeah.

So you worked— just to frame up for everyone listening— so you worked, so you did—

it was an internship, 3 months, um, at Reed. Yeah. What did that involve then?

Just like candidates, all candidates.

With banks. Crap. Now look back here, it was like the worst experience ever, really. Um, I didn't really learn much there, if I'm honest with you. Yeah, yeah, I didn't learn much there. Um, left there. Um, I'll be honest with you, back then I was quite still— like, you could have called me semi-nervous, shy.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Um, left then, you know, I, I must have interviewed at 20, 25 places.

Really?

Didn't get a job in any of them. And, and it was recruitment jobs? Recruitment jobs, you know, they put it down to nervous, you know, um, stuttered quite a lot, too young, and the list went on.

Really?

Yeah, a lot of, a lot of the big recruitment companies that actually tried headhunting me, headhunting me when they saw I was a global top biller, was that they actually interviewed me previously and said no.

That's interesting. Yeah, so a lot of people doubted you, mate.

Yeah.

Okay, that's definitely got a feed that you wanted to be the best. Surely, do you think?

Uh, no, really? No, no. Um, I, you know, it was what it was. Like, you know, that was my situation then. People didn't like the age, people didn't like my CV, people didn't like, you know, how I come across in interview. And I, you know, I weren't great at interviews, I'll be honest with you. Yeah.

Um, that's interesting.

Yeah.

How did you land— so, and then, and then you joined the recruitment agency, and then how long was you there for?

I joined Nigel Frank.

Yeah.

Um, The director, a guy called Alex Phillips, who trained me everything I know pretty much. Really? Yeah, yeah, to an extent he was the person, he believed in me, trusted me.

Really?

You know, he gave me that chance basically and, you know, underneath him he really did grill me, not grill me, he drilled into me of how to be the best recruiter ever.

Really?

Yeah.

Why do you think he gave you a chance?

I don't know. I think he said at the time that, you know, he was like me back in the day, sort of thing. He got a chance and then— yeah, yeah, he saw a lot of me in him and then, yeah, he gave me a chance.

And was this in London?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, because where did you grow up?

Um, I grew up in Essex, in Loughton.

And then what, so Reed was Reed local?

No, no, no, yeah, exactly. Is it when you—

so I've done other stuff before I've done recruitment, but yeah, yeah, it's just, um So I had a chap, um, I can't remember where he grew up now, but it was in Essex. But he said like, literally, you could ask anyone in Essex and they've all done recruitment at some point.

I've got a lot of Essex boys. Really?

Yeah. Um, okay, so then just to frame up then, so how long do you work at Nigel Frank for?

Uh, top of my head, about 9 months.

9 months. And then you joined another agency?

No, so Okay, story was I left, I had personal problems. Yeah, so, you know, I went to live in Spain.

Oh really?

Yeah, yeah, I went to live in Spain, um, just wasn't really getting on at home. Okay, so I went to live in Spain where my dad used to live, and, um, yeah, I, I just went away for a bit.

And then is that where all those skins from, mate?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe. Um, do love Spain, but Then I come back and the way I got to Hunter Charles is that Alex set up Hunter Charles.

Oh, is that the—

Yeah. And you know, I didn't have loads of experience. What Alex knew that he would get from me is I'll build up the market quickly. I'd build up the market, you know, I had the intensity, I had the focus, and he knew that, you know, I was very hard working. You know, when I was at Nigel Frank, I was a trainee at the end of the day.

Yeah.

And you know, I was, you know, doing a lot, you know, most call times, most call dials. The input was there. Um, because I worked hard, never messed about. It's not, it's not me. Like, I respected my situation.

Yeah. Um, you know, also him giving you a chance as well. Yeah, really respected that.

Uh, that wasn't really coming into my head, really. More to do with, you know, if I'm working, I'm working. That's just me through and through.

Yeah, fair enough.

You know, when I'm at work, I'm at work. Like, no fucking about.

Okay, so then is it fair to— and then how long was you at Hunter Charles?

I think it says like 2 and a bit. Yeah, whatever it is.

Yeah, 2 to 3 years. And then, and then after that you started—

Correct.

So let's just talk a bit about Hunter Charles for a second. Maybe you can include Nigel Frank if you want, but obviously clearly that was your sort of real grounding. Yeah, well, obviously things happen, personal, whatever, but ultimately that ended up being like your real grounding in recruitment, which is— Correct. Loads of things you learned through that process led you to this point of you starting your own recruitment business. So I guess you can use Hunter Charles or Nigel Frank, but how— I'm always interested to speak to people about how their first 12 months were in recruitment. Because they can be some of the toughest. I don't know what you've experienced now employing people, but that can definitely be the toughest for quite a few people, particularly people that get sold recruitment is, as we said on the phone, that they just— when people sell recruitment, typically it can just be about the good things, the money you can earn, the things you can buy, the Ibiza trips you can go on, but don't talk about the rejection that you can face on a daily basis, these types of things. So I guess, how were your first 12 months in recruitment?

Yeah, I think, you know, Nigel Frank was more about learning, learning, learning, being drilled in about process. You know, it's a very esprit type culture in terms of militant, old school, you know, this is it, if you don't like it, you're gone. Yeah, I think. And you either work that way, you don't stay. It's as simple as that. So they cut, they cut, you know, they cut the crap out very quickly. And Alex has the mentality of you know, 100 miles an hour. This is the way we do it, you know, the proper recruitment way. And that's where I learned the ruthlessness. Really? Yeah.

What does that mean? Talk to me about that. What, what is that? Ruthless?

He took no shit. Took no shit.

Really? Yeah, yeah. In what sense though? Like, when— in what sense? When you're—

people take the piss, then, you know, they would know about it. But that, that's what I, that's what I like about Alex, is, you know, he, you know, don't get wrong, I, I get— I always got along with Alex because he knew that he could rely on me at the end of the day. However, there are a lot of people that take the piss in recruitment. So you don't—

you're talking people that work for you, like, just—

yeah, just in general, like, you know, employees, you know, they want to sit on their phone all day, you know, they, they want to take delayed lunches, they want to be late. And, you know, it happens. And if, if you're not drilling in a culture, then it's just going to all run right, right? So, you know, I learned a lot from him, put it that way.

Okay. How did you do? And so from what I saw online, correct me if I'm wrong, the market you ended up in is now the market you've been in for— yeah, like since— yeah, 8, 9 years. Yeah. So how did you do in terms of the market? So, and then—

so I was their founding consultant.

Always contract biller?

Yeah, obviously I've done a little bit of perm here and there, but that's just because client— it was an A job, I knew the candidate. I didn't ever work perm jobs heavy, but it has been predominantly contract. Of course, I'm a contract recruiter through and through. Yeah.

Okay, cool. How did you do billions-wise in your first year, mate?

Remember my first year? I think I got to 5K a week.

Yeah, yeah. And then what about Hunter Charles? Is that where—

yeah, Hunter Charles. Okay, so I mean, so I had— I done a couple deals when I was at Nigel Frank, went to Hunter Charles, um, and you know, I was their founding consultant. They got bought out by a company called Talent International, who are like a global— like, they're a big IT recruitment company in Australia. Probably the market leader in Australia.

Okay.

They had a lot of backing. I was their number one employee, you know, between the London office and UK, they had like 100 people plus in the first year or two.

Really?

Yeah, they grew very quickly. I was working very closely with Alex at the time to grow the brand.

Would you start in the market from scratch then?

Yeah.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I left at 16.5K a week. 'cause that's what I got to when I was there. And my background is BD. I don't rely on accounts and stuff like that. So, you know, one month, I think I'd done like 10 deals in a month, all new business, capped at 6 months, you know, stuff like that. And that wasn't account, that wasn't accounts coming to me, that was me going to them, getting the jobs, working in jobs, being a specialist.

[Speaker] Can we just talk about that for a sec? Just because if I think of like the most common things that people ask me to talk about with guests, it's business development. Yeah, it's winning new business.

Yeah.

So love the fact that that's something you're, you're really confident in and clearly delivered on.

Yeah, I'm good at it. Yeah.

Let's break that down a bit. What, what— so now as well, I guess you can think about obviously what you help people with now in, in your business. But again, starting the market from scratch, from what I understand— twice, twice.

Yeah, here as well. Important.

Yeah, important, important note. So I was a permanent recruiter. Um, so from what I understand, sitting down with people like you, yeah, from what I understand, contract is very much— if you could, if you get the BD right, yeah, and you're really good at that, you have every chance of doing really well. So let's break that down for a sec. So you— so how— what would you say are some of the biggest contributors to you being able to open 10 new accounts or winning 10 new clients?

Open a call with a killer impact.

Opening a call with a killer impact?

Yeah.

Talk to me, mate. What do you mean?

Um, people, people work the cheesy way too much.

Okay.

In terms of asking. And, you know, you know, ask, you know, literally you're never ever ever going to get information from a client if you ask them. So, you know, some, some recruiters will ask about jobs, they'll ask if they're hiring instead of putting a twist on it and telling them, I heard you're hiring, because that way it allows them to double think and then go get the information for you. Because sometimes, you know, like I say, with the killer impact side of things is you know, who we are, who I am, you know, what we do, who we're helping, and then pitching that way. Like, people, people can't open, you know. When I go up to my floor now, I could go up to my floor and get them all to pitch me, and they all pitch me the same because we all— I drill into them, how do we make sure the first 10 seconds a client says, right, I want to stay on the phone to this guy.

That's really interesting. So like, it's like a personal pitch.

Personal pitch is perfect. Really?

Yeah, it sounds so basic, but how many people, if like in the recruitment market now, if you were to pull them aside and go, right, if you're talking to people for the first time, give me a pitch— that's interesting, that. Yeah, like, what does that typically— can, can, like, you don't have to give us a whole spiel, but what does that typically consist of? Is like, hi, my name is Hishem Azzouz, I'm calling you because this, this is what we do. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, listen to the master, mate.

Go on. Who am I?

Yeah. Who are we? Yeah.

What do we do? Okay. A case study of like testimonial.

Okay.

And explaining how we're helping that testimonial as quick as possible, and then speaking to them about how we can help them as we've been helping other customers. It's more like case study base.

That's interesting.

You know, um, we're moving away from that typical recruitment style. We're moving towards a more consultative approach, offering solutions That's what we're doing. We're not doing a typical cheesy recruitment. I don't like the word recruitment anymore, really. That's why we're a staffing company. We're a specialist staffing company. When people are saying, right, you know, this is what we do, I want to speak to HR, or I want to speak to line manager and do the typical flipping back references and stuff like that, that's, that's— I don't, I don't— yeah, I want to get big projects, big juicy projects where we can do 5, 10, 15 contractors in.

Okay, let me So if I'm listening right now and I'm going, Jamie, totally get that, that's really interesting. What if I've got no case studies right now? Do you know what I mean?

They've got to learn the case studies.

They've got to learn the pitch, right?

Yeah, learn, learn who are we working with. Working with Microsoft is one of the biggest testimonials you can get.

Okay, because obviously if you think you're building up— so are you saying then what leverage what? Because if you're agent, if you're working for an agency right now and they haven't got any testimonials, do you know what I mean?

That's just what I'm thinking. That's that. Oh, for new stuff?

Yeah, yeah. Like, well, if someone's building a desk from scratch, yeah. And they're going through this right now and it's like, you know what, like I'm trying to build leverage off the company then, really.

But then if you then say, okay, what if there's no brands? Okay, but then you can still open with a killer impact, take the pitch out, but just offer a solution-based consultative advice of how we can help you compared to a standard agency and more of a consultative agency. Okay, standard agency is, okay, what jobs do you have?

Yeah, yeah.

Sending candidates. A consultative company like us we'll find— so we work with a lot of customers, we will find problems within their projects where we can offer our services. How can we save the money? How can we consult, save them time to, to deliver the project easier, better, quicker? People don't do that. I know that they did it. My competition don't do that. That's why, you know, I completely outbuild all of my competition because of that reason.

That's really interesting, that. So if anyone listening Like, and then, you know, you said about that pitch there, I really like the way that you structured that. Like, surely that's got to be lasting more than 10 seconds, but is it the beginning of it? Yeah, yeah, totally, totally get that.

Yeah, make sure that they know who am I talking to, not for them to turn around and say, okay, who is this, or what do you do? You— they should know exactly who you are with that killer impact.

And I think also as well, like, tonality, confident when you do that, is passion.

Passion. I put it down to passion, really. Yeah, yeah. People call me arrogant sometimes. I've been called that once. I've been called arrogant in my interview. Okay, I don't put it down to arrogance. Okay, arrogant is someone who is very cocky, doesn't have the facts. And me, I put myself down to passionate with facts. It's passion that may make me sound like, okay, yeah, he's a bit arrogant, but no, because I'm very passionate. You know what I've done, I, you know, I'm, I'm not grateful, but I'm proud of my achievements. Totally. Yeah. Um, And like I said, I put a lot of it down to passion. And, um, you know, I tell them all to pitch with passion.

Passion goes a long way than that.

I think it's the best thing in any pitching.

Passion, energy, like it would just take you— it would take you a long— it would take you a long way. So a big part as to how you got to those sorts of numbers, new business. And that is— that's something you like, clearly new business, you always got new business every single month. He was like, right, what new?

Now 90% of my calls are successful.

If I make the call, that's interesting.

Yeah.

And is there anything before that though to make sure that the calls you are making are, of course, strategic?

Being an expert. I've done, um, like an article on my LinkedIn of what is a specialist recruiter. Okay, knowing your market, that, i.e., who are the biggest projects in your market, who are the best candidates in your market, the top 20 candidates in each job title in your market. Okay, knowing when you get a lead Who is the lead for? Okay, um, being quicker than your market, they're like your competition. You know, I've done a deal in every continent in the world now. Okay. At the start of this year in January, I've done my last deal, which was Australia. You know, I've done Africa, Australia, Asia, Europe, North America, Canada, and South America. But that— and you know, you would think that my competition in these locations should have beat me. Yeah, they didn't.

So is there any— is there— so what, how, how can people really start getting to that point of really knowing their market inside out? It was a big part of that, knowing their candidates who can give you all this information.

Not cutting corners.

Really?

Candidates, you know, the— I wasn't a candidate guy. The reason why I know the best candidates, because I placed the best candidates. But it's not always to play— you're not always able to place the best candidates.

Yeah.

However, I, you know, when people interview with me, people work for me, my clients mainly, everyone knows I'm just direct. I don't mess around and not, you know, and talk the cheesy way of recruitment and this and that. I don't, I don't care about that. Yeah, bottom line is I don't care about that. For me, I want to do business. I'm here to do business and that's it.

Surprising, like, it sounds simple, but how many people are doing that?

What, the cheesy?

No, they're just doing wanting to do business and being direct and solving problems. And do you know what I mean?

A lot of people don't ask the questions on the call to, let's say, you know, a lot of people are afraid sometimes, you know, when you're flipping back a project manager and you've sold a project manager a job, or if it's a fake job, a real job, and then asking about their hiring needs within their team. People think— people just forget the basics sometimes.

So you just mentioned that, I'm thinking, so you're someone that, um, did really well at this business, built up this book of business. How— so you knowing that you wasn't— so obviously candidates then, how did you deal with that then? Because that's something also you had to be good enough at to have good jobs. Okay, that's interesting. Is that the difference in the contract market then?

That obviously that would— no, not mess— I don't mess around my candidates, string them along and don't go give them feedback. I don't do that. Like I say, the reason why I've done well, a lot of my deals were jobs that I created. I found problems within projects and sold in solutions. That's creating a job. I very rarely chase leads. I don't like all that. It's B and C jobs. I want exclusive A jobs. You know, my ratio at my last business was like 1.1 to a deal. Really? Yeah. And that's it. You can't get better.

Where does, um, where does, where does mindset for this, for you, fit in? Because I feel like you strike me as someone that's clearly got work ethic, then natural work ethic.

Mindset is key, right? Um, and you know, I tell my team about mindset all the time. Yeah. You know, I do research on mindset and stress and everything.

What's been your journey with that, mate? It'd be good to just talk a bit about that because I'm sure mindset— you've had some tough times. It hasn't all been 1.1, do you know what I mean?

Like, so when I first set up my business, yeah, I lost all of my money.

Really?

Yeah, I lost all of my money doing something stupid. Um, if I wanted to, I should— I could have just gone back to my old company and earned all of that money I was earning monthly, but I didn't. I pressed on. Mindset's key. I never ever let something affect me while I'm working, ever, regardless how bad it is. So is it safe to say—

let's definitely go on to that because I think that— that I love the fact that Was it at Hunter Charles then? Was there more ups than there was downs then?

No, because like I say, when I was on target to do 10 deals a month, right, I was on I think 5 or 6 deals. One of the boys in the team— I had 2 weeks left— one of the boys said, oh, you can chill back and sit back now. Yeah, don't get wrong, I build big, big numbers here. Um, I was like, no, no way. Yeah, I said, watch, I said, watch what I do this month. And you know, last week I created a couple of deals because You know, I just made it happen. I thought, you know what, I'm gonna make deals now. I want to get 10. Yeah, I can be— I can do 10. Like, you don't hear a lot of people that do 10 deals, new business deals, not account delivery and all of that shit. I mean, like, proper new business deals. And I pushed on, you know, that someone like that, that's an average recruiter. I talk about comfort zones as well, you know. You have the comfort zones, you have the growth zones. I'm always in my growth zone, so I always want to learn more, do more. Be better? Do podcasts?

Have you always been like that though? How have you cultivated that? Do you know?

No, I don't get me wrong, like, as I've got older, I've got more intelligent about, you know, I'm not the brightest person. Yeah, I've got not a lot of GCSEs. However, for me, I'm very streetwise and, you know, I'm all about mindset, positivity. Everyone that walks through my door gets given the book The Secret.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. Um, that's interesting. You know, we've got another book called Gung Ho, which was recommended to me by my Ned, um, which is just great.

Talk to me about The Secret, mate, because I've read that and I mean, that's, that's affirmations, everything. Yeah, yeah.

You know, my, my trainee was the quickest trainee I've seen do a deal, really, uh, like a month and a half. Um, he's done 2 deals in a month and a half, no recruitment experience, uh, no sales experience either. And, you know, I, you know, he watches like Eric Thomas and stuff like that. So, you know, my whole business is built around that. All the negative people, I've just— I've got rid of them.

Let's dive into your business. Yes, I'd really like to do that. So clearly learned a lot of Hunter Charles. Have you always wanted your own business?

Alex knew that I always wanted, you know.

Yeah. Was you open about it?

No, he obviously didn't like it, but that's, you know, I was good biller, you know. I was a big biller. I was their main biller. I'd have done phenomenal numbers there if I stayed there.

Was there a point then where you're like, you know what, I could be doing this for myself?

No, because I was young, right? A lot of people doubted me. Oh, you're too young to do this and stuff.

23 when you started?

I set up Interex at 23.

Yeah. So, and who typically would be like, nah, Jamie, you need more experience, mate? Was that close? Was that friends? Was it colleagues?

Was it—

no, when I handed my notice in, straight away, I was like, whoa, whoa, what are you doing, mate?

Yeah, really? That's fine though, but you know.

But did you, did you, what, where did that motivation to start Interex come, did it come from anywhere, or was it, do you know what I mean?

I don't really know because I've never done management training. I never managed a big team ever.

Oh, you never was a manager?

No, I mentored people.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah, I mentored people, but every, everything that I've done is either I've learned it from Alex, or, um, I train people how I do recruitment. Yeah, you train people how to do recruitment you know, how I work. Yeah, I am very militant. I'm a one-off. And, you know, I've, uh, like Alex always said to me, you can't hire yourself. And I always wanted myself, but you can't hire that. Um, and I've only started getting my head around it. It's not every biller is going to be amazing.

Yeah.

However, my expectation is through the roof.

Yeah. Okay, so Interex, you started that in when you was 23?

2016.

April 2016. And like, what, did you have a business plan? Like, what was the, what was the plan here, mate? Did you have a plan?

I had a plan, but I've never done anything like that before. I'm just a good biller, really. I'm a—

so how, like, talk to me a bit about the early days then, mate, because I think nothing—

I've, you know, it was, it was pathetic. Look, I've looked, I still have it now. Looking back, back here, saying about 1 deal a month. After a month, I don't know, 2, I said to myself— no, month 1, I put— I've done a deal a month to the end of the year, 12 months.

Yeah.

That's pathetic. Like, that's not, that's not a lot. Yeah, but still, I always done worst case and all of this. And I'll be honest with you, it's quite embarrassing looking back at it. However, you know, I didn't know any different. I knew I could earn money on my own.

That's the first— the first 12 months were a bit challenging?

Uh, no, because I've done well. However, I did have a big challenge because one of my projects went from what my product to a completely different product. Okay, I got rid of all of my contractors. However, you know, I didn't, I didn't have a plan. I just said to myself, right, this is what I need, okay, in terms of tools. Not a lot, I just needed a phone and LinkedIn really, and that's all I've done business by.

Where did you, where was you working out of?

Um, I had a small, which is probably the size of this, like half of this meeting room in Loughton where I live, uh, was there Grew out of that straight away because I wanted to hire someone. Went to another office in Loughton where I had one employee.

Yeah.

And then we come up to here.

Bank.

Bank. We went to the Office Group.

Yeah, yeah.

Was there for a year, hated it. And then, yeah, we leased this. This was a big commitment that we had, but we've done it.

Okay.

Yeah.

So a lot of people, there'll be a lot of people listening that may think about what happens to have wanting to do their own recruitment business.

I set this business up on nothing. Nothing.

What do you mean nothing?

No, no, no cash injected funds. I'm the sole founder of this business, right?

I said just save that money.

I lost most of that money.

Um, how come? A little bit about that gambling. Yeah, really?

Yeah.

Well, as just as in like socially gambling, or as in gambling, or just like I said, everything I do is either big or not big.

Everything.

Okay.

When I go out, everything, it's all, I either do it all or nothing. Okay, that's just me. In my business, I'm all or nothing. You know, I put so much passion in my training, it's ridiculous. People know when they've come into a training session with me. You know, it's just who I am. And, you know, people say, you know, what, you know, do you need this massive plan in place? Do you need this, you need that? No, pick up, if you're on your own, Pick up the phone and do the job well.

Make it happen.

Yeah. Stop looking for excuses. It's embarrassing.

How did you know you was doing— obviously there must have been obviously quite a few times where you're like, am I doing the right thing? Do you know what I mean? Because you've got nothing else to really— you've got no one to bounce off. That's obviously some people worry about that. Of course.

And it is so hard. I think 80% of people won't be able to do it. Maybe even more, 90%.

What got you through that then, mate?

Who I am. I told you, like I say, so much focus and discipline and passion and determination, and you know, the list goes on, that like, like I said, I, I know how to do the job. Nothing will stop me.

How did you get this money back that you lost there, mate?

Uh, I had a little bit of money. Yeah, I got, I got my office, which was cheap. I got my LinkedIn recruiter, which is not, it's not overly expensive for me. Um, I had my phones that was it. That's all I need. I don't need job boards, I don't need nothing.

Okay, so was— so when— so, so the first 12 months, was it— you said it was just you? You said just a trap back, just use it yourself in Loughton?

Uh, no, no, towards the end you got— towards the end I got someone in.

Yeah, so that was interesting then. So hadn't you mentored a few people? What was like the big drive around you wanting to get someone in?

Because obviously I was super busy. Really? Yeah, in the space of 18 months I've got my contract, but my own one up to £21,500 a week.

Really? And, and is that that Jamie being really good at new business again? Is that the guy? That's me.

I knew my competition, right? Nigel Frank. I knew my competition in my market, um, and I've outbuilt everyone now. And I don't know anyone— there may be, I don't know— I don't know anyone has had zero database, zero anything, and zero brand to build to that number quicker than me. 18 months, no database, nothing, getting to £21,500 a week, billing £84K or whatever it is. I've not heard anyone do that.

Not bad, that, is it?

No.

Something to be proud of.

Yeah, exactly. 100%.

And I know you said this before we started, and then I think it's a good thing to know, and this wasn't in the UK at this point, this was— or mainland Europe, or mainland Europe. And then like I say, you know, and did you do that When you was a— your previous company?

Uh, yeah, yeah. I've done a bit of UK and Europe and some state stuff as well, but when I was here, I focused on Europe.

Really?

I had covenants as well.

Um, this is all new business that you're doing?

Everything. No, they tried saying it wasn't, but it was. I tried coming after my new business stuff and it was just really— yeah, it was pathetic.

But yeah, so With that in mind, mate, how— so then, so then, sorry, year 2 at The Office Group, how many did you grow to then?

So we, we're classing our full years, right? So 2017 was our full year because we started halfway through 2016. Okay, so 2017 was our full year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, that was our first full year. Then last year was our second full year, and this is our third full year. So, you know, in the space of, you know, In our second— so in our first full year, towards the end, one of my biggest accounts completely— they got rid of all my contractors. Had about 15 contractors in there.

Okay.

So it was three-quarters of my book. Wow. Yeah. So it was, it was like, oh my God, what's going on? Just after Christmas as well.

Really?

Yeah, I remember it.

Um, how'd that make you feel?

Shit. Yeah, massively. Because you've got to understand, right, we didn't have a lot of cash. Was building.

Because was you— sorry, again, because this isn't, um, what I worked in, but with contractors, does it— was you paying them out of your—

no, we—

or did you ever have the pay?

We had, um, hey, we got a, um, finance agreement with HSBC.

Okay, cool. Yeah, so that involves them payrolling and pay factors.

He hadn't paid us when we was paid, when they were— the client was just normal, like we have it now.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

How did you own the turnover?

Cool. So the chat— so where did you go from there then? Like, you lost all those people, pushed on, really?

Yeah, it's like starting again. Yeah, starting again.

Never thought about quitting? No, really.

I know, I know I'm the best at what I do. There's not that, you know.

What did you learn from that though?

Don't focus on one account. Well, I didn't focus on one account because I'd done a business everywhere else, but don't let it be But then sometimes you think you're not going to turn away business right in your market. You know, I was doing deals like no tomorrow there.

So that resilience that you're talking about there, like everyone out there— so there's what, 15? Did you say 15 now? All of them, all of them can't have that real resilience that you have. Like, how have you gone about cultivating that in your people?

A lot of them do now. My core 10 They do.

How have you built that up for them? Because that's, if I think again, people that message me, a book. Yeah. Would give us a bit of a synopsis, just a core thing that you see people benefit from.

Culture. Culture. Culture. It's all about culture. We, in the last 6 months, we've really created our culture. I'm trying to create my brand, our identity. You know, our training is the best, you know, I think it's the best in the industry. You know, the training comes from me and I'm mentoring people of how to, you know, I've built up 2 contract books from scratch, no brand, nothing. And I mentor people on how to build quick, better than their competition, faster than their competition, and good, and good. You know, I'm 26, I've got a lot of energy. You know, my trainees want to work for me. Trainees don't want to work for my competition. In the industry because they know they're looking at me, 26-year-old that's going to turn over £9 million this year compared to maybe a 40, 50, 60-year-old CEO that they don't have much interaction with. You know, it's all well and good saying, yeah, I've done it 20 years ago, but that was easier then. So it's so much harder now. So much harder to do recruitment now.

What do you think a good contract biller should be billing? That, if it can bill. So I spoke to someone who worked for Adecco for 17 years. Build 1.4 million in one year. And but, and then it was— but it was been there 14 years, 2003 he did that. But, and then I said, but in today's market, totally different. He's like, yeah, completely different now, blah blah blah. And he said he, he thought a lot of really good contract biller can do anywhere between sort of 500 to 700 now in today's market.

What a great biller.

Yeah, like a decent contract biller can hit those sort of numbers.

My top biller's 22, he's going to go into next year on 15K a week. He'll he should be on about 20K by April.

Really?

Yeah.

And then we're sorry, what does that add up in like a year then? So that's just me being so shit with 20.

Fair enough.

It's just because obviously I'll let you think, just because obviously, right? Yeah, it's just because obviously normally perm is like the year, like, do you know what I mean? It's the year.

Really? Yeah.

Um, so culture is something that everyone talks about. Let's just talk about that. So you said that like the last 6 months you've really been trying to How can you start identifying that? If I'm listening right now, how can I start identifying what my culture is? Do you know what I mean?

Okay, we— someone classed us as like semi-corporate but semi— this is a proper sales company. Okay, okay. I've now got it to a point where new people will come in. So we're doing— I've done a training academy last 2, 3 months ago. Yeah, 2 months ago. Yeah. And these were brand new trainees and We've now got a culture where any new person, whether they're senior or junior, coming to our business, that my core team are setting the pace. They're not at that level, they'll get left behind straight away. The culture is set now where we have rules, we have ways of working, we have processes. Not a lot of people have this in place. Okay, you know, we— I'm all about creating a noise in the office, okay? And the culture that we're building is that, like I say, people will know straight away if they're right for it or not. And, you know, we will be able to identify— I can identify within the first week if someone's going to last here because how differently they work to how we work as a team. And like I say, we work all the same. My team's range is 18 to 20— me, 26.

Really?

Okay, so I've got a young team and we all work the same way as a team, and I want to press on a team because, you know, there's a lot of businesses where everyone's very different, and, you know, yeah, it's good to have people that are different. However, the way of working, the processes, the structure, um, how did you start building that then if you didn't have that before? Yeah, but the— I have a Ned, like a non-exec director.

Okay.

He he got me the book or he told me to get the book and told me to read it and, you know—

It had a big impact.

It has. And I spoke to a couple of people of ways of doing things. And, you know, people have left my business that I've got rid of. You know, they always say, oh, you know, very, very militant way of working and stuff like that. But, you know—

That's you being true to yourself though, then.

It's me being true to myself and people get what they see with me. You know, I'm very direct. In my interviews, people come at my interviews and say, I'm just so direct. But that's because I will never miss out on an opportunity. There's a lot of people that miss out opportunities in this industry. I'll never do that. People know exactly how I am, the pressure they will get from me. But with me, I get results out of people. That's the difference. If you want to be average, you won't work for me. Okay? If you want a challenge and actually earn a shitload of money and beat everyone in your industry, you work for me. There's no two ways about it. And that's what I say in any interview that I have. Okay? If you want to be average, go work for someone else. Because you won't be welcome here because my bar is high. But that's because, you know, I was the best in my industry. I know that for a fact. And now Interrex as a brand, I want us to be the best at what we do, okay? And that's why— and, you know, like I say, I'm such a perfectionist in everything, so everything I do has to be perfect. And if it's not, then I lose my shit. Simple. But that's because you know, I want people to know Interex is the brand of quality.

I love that, mate. You're so passionate when you talk about that. And I think, I think again, dude, but someone's going to listen to that and go, nah, I don't want to work for him, that's fine. But as you just said, it's like the people that do want that, the people out there that are—

do—

because there's not everyone wants to strive for that. No, just don't, you know what I mean?

No, no, I don't think that's—

I think it's honestly, I think that's great, the fact that you're owning that.

Average isn't welcome with me.

Yeah. I just love the fact you're owning that because a lot of people will be like, like, I don't want to, I don't want to be rude, I don't want to be arrogant. Like, if, yeah, like, if you want to be the best, work for me. But like, you're owning that, do you know what I mean? I think that's great.

You know, all my training academy people that I've got, I, I closed them on the spot because they knew they were sold on the interview. They didn't have to go home and think about it. They knew what they were stepping into. You know, I interviewed so many people The bar was so high for the trainees, and, you know, I got, I got the right people. I haven't retained one person, um, because he was— he couldn't take criticism. But I've got 4 people out there that are going to be machines in the next year, absolute machines.

When you're hiring, obviously it's— that's a— it's obviously a real challenge for a lot of recruitment businesses hiring for their own business. What are the sort of key, key traits that you look for in people that are sort of unnegotiable that they have to have?

So we're looking at more trainees at the minute. Trainees, they need to be moldable.

Moldable.

They need to be passionate. They need to be very positive. Um, they have to have the mindset of wanting to work ridiculous hours. Okay, I'm not saying you have to here. I care about results and input. Um, but they, they need to have the mindset of wanting, you know, okay to work hours if they need to.

Work ethic. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think everyone's going to say that though, right?

But I, I can tell straight away if I want someone or not.

I mean, how can, how can you measure those types of things in an interview? What, anything that you typically do that some people might be able to get value out of?

I just know what I want.

Too fast. Good advice. Know what you want.

I know what I want.

There's a lot of people that probably don't know.

No, I know what I want. And like I say, people buy into me. I'm not cheesy guy that hasn't been there and done it. You know, trainees look up to people like me. You know, don't get me wrong, I love spending money. I love spending money. I hate the word budget. Budget doesn't even come into my office because, you know, when I do my incentives, they're top, they're top. Like, you can't get better. And people know that. You know, my incentives are great. You know, I do an incentive nearly every other week.

Okay.

And I don't care about doing that. People say, oh, you spend too much money. Okay, but we're getting results. That, that's, that's just my philosophy. Um, simple as that.

No, I love it, mate. So, um, as you mentioned it a couple of times, so I've had the conversation quite a few times with, uh, business owners and have said around sort of them wanting to get in there and these types of things.

Yeah.

How, how impactful has that been for your business, mate?

Uh, yeah, so I, I got Gary Goldsmith.

Yeah.

Known in the industry. Um, yeah, it's been great working with him. Um, he's helped me out a lot.

What would you say if people— if an agency owner is listening right now and they're thinking about getting in there or whatever, what are some of the things that they should maybe think about, or some of the things that you've seen the real benefit in?

You've got to think with me, right? I've got no background in building a company.

Yeah, sure.

I'm young, okay? I've not got any real, real management experience, okay? I've got no process where I'm looking at forecast and stuff like that. And P&L, I've never done any of that.

Yeah.

Okay. I've put a structure in now. I've got a structure and we can build on a great structure. We're now scalable. That's the key word, right? We, we're in a position where we can scale.

Scale. Yeah.

And like I say, we're in a position where we're scalable because we have the right culture in place.

And, and having the net has really helped you build that.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that's it again. I think what you're saying there is huge, huge value add, is that if you're someone that, as you just said, you're someone that recognizes some of the weaknesses, some experiences you haven't had, then you can have access to someone that has those experiences. Then that's super valuable.

I can give him a call when I want.

Yeah, and that's enough in itself. Yeah, that's interesting, because have you had any mentors?

Never. Alex, Philip.

Yeah, it was a bit of a mentor to you.

Yeah, not now. We don't really talk now. Um, but yeah, he was, and he was, he was, he was great.

On the money part, the money you're talking about, you love spending money. Yeah, yeah, obviously. Just again, look, I'm, I'm an honest guy, right? And it's come up a couple of times. It come up on a conversation recently had on this podcast. How much— so what do you talk to anyone about managing their money? What, or being smart with their money? Just like, for example, you've got 8, as you said.

So my top biller, right, he was— he, he, he started earning decent money.

Yeah.

And he wasn't— he wasn't— his mum and dad were telling him what to do with his money. I said, no way.

Yeah, yeah.

I actually told him to fucking ignore them and just start spending it, enjoy it. Don't come and graft your ass off and then watch it. And you're young, and watch about how much you're going to spend on a top or a pair of trainers. I don't like that. Okay, okay.

I just think there's a conversation to be had around— there's also, I think, financial advice. Like, if you think you're a young lad earning good money— yeah, you mentioned gambling earlier, whatever—

but I'll give you an idea.

It's a good conversation, don't they?

So, you know, what people get with me when they work for me is that they get the full package. They get their mate, their boss, director, colleague, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, I'm everything to to make sure that everyone is comfortable in life, okay? Whether that's, you know, me helping someone out with counseling, I don't care, I'll pay for it. Whether that's, um, you know, just being there for someone when it, when it, things are shit. Yeah, you know that. I, you know, whether that's, you know, I had one guy that was riddled in debt, but I was paying it, you know, I was managing, I was managing his money in the end, you know. I had his money, I was managing it, and yeah, it was a fucking pain in the ass. But I'll do that, especially if they work for me. I don't care what I'll do, I'll do what I can to make my team happy. Okay, I'll go the extra mile because like I say, um, I'm just one of these people where people can rely on me.

Yeah, you said that from the game.

Yeah.

Talking about this, yeah, again, it'd be interesting to get your thoughts on this. I'm conscious of time, we've got a bit, haven't we? Where does happiness fall into this, mate? Do you know what I mean?

I know what you mean. Um, obviously money, money does bring happiness.

What's been your journey with happiness during this business? Because like, how— no, just getting this, meeting you today, I feel like you're clearly someone that's all about work. As you said, fully committed when you're here, blah blah blah. How has that impacted, yeah, your relationship with happiness? They said ups and downs. How does it impact relationships with, with, um, girlfriends, partners, whatever? Do you know what I mean? Like, how's, how's that been? Um, because it's real, isn't it? Like, if you're starting a recruitment business, they're things you've got to think about.

I'll be honest with you, go on. Whatever the situation is, my business comes first. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, there's no two ways about it. No one is going to get in my way of what I'm going to achieve, okay? Because what I'm going to achieve is going to be phenomenal. I know that because, you know, there's no one like me. And I can say that because I've got, you know, I, I confident, you know, people, when people meet me, they, they can see straight. If they work for me, they think, you know, that I, I'm good at what I do because of how I am and who I am. Um, I'm happy, you know, I can spend money when I want now. I've never been able to do that, you know. You know, my mum even said the other day, like, she spent a bit of money and you know, she was like, she was like happy because it's great that she can— she doesn't have to think about, think about like what she has to spend. Okay, so seeing stuff like that is great. Um, money, regardless what anyone says, money brings happiness. Okay, because you get to do what you want. You know, I'm 26 years old, right? I've got a business that's earning a shitload of money. Okay, I'm earning a shitload of money. You know, I've got everything I possibly want. Okay, yeah, I might want to get a few other massive things, but that's millions of pounds I need to be spending. But for a 26-year-old, I've got everything I want. So yeah, I am happy. Don't get wrong, I'm stressed out my eyeballs. However, you know, I've got a good team behind me that, that's handling with all of that stuff. You know, I've got a good, you know, team that I, I pay And I think it's all, you know, I'm very healthy, okay? Like I said, I've got OCD with everything and, you know, that's important to you. Yeah, I've got, you know, I've got a good team that helps me with my health in different areas.

What do you mean?

You know, I do yoga every week, I get a massage every week, I get acupuncture every week, you know, I, yeah, you know, I go kickboxing.

Money, right?

Of course, you know, yeah, it is, but, you know, and, and the way, you know, one of my health advisors says, if, if you don't do all of this and take an hour and a half at lunch to go gym, then you're not going to be at your full game. So if I'm not at my full game, I'm not going to give them my full 100%, and then my business is not going to get 400%.

Yeah, there's no point if Jamie isn't 100— like, you can't give 100% to Jamie, then money's not going to help you do that.

However, I'm in early, I leave late, I never take the piss, I'm never late, I'm never sick. So that's me. I lead by example, always have, always will. I was never late at my last company. Ever.

It's important, I think.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, people look—

I knew you'd come to this meeting and meet me and you just speaking that. I knew I couldn't be late to this meeting. Yeah, you give that— no, I love that. I think that's class. So just a quick one as we finish, mate, um, just to finalize sort of what you learned and stuff. I think, thinking of the people listening, like, any, any sort of learnings on you helping these guys get to your bar and the standard, like, that are worth sharing? I know you mentioned the book a few times, but I don't know, any sort of goal. Have a goal.

Yeah, have a goal. Every, you know, have your affirmations written down. So on my phone, right, I have my affirmations written down of everything that I'm going to achieve, telling myself that I will be successful, telling myself that I will achieve XYZ. Every day I read that, every day, regardless. Every year I have a goal. Every month I have a goal. Okay. And, you know, people ask about me, you know, what's your 2-year, 3-year, 4-year plan? I don't have one because every year we always overachieve, and I always will do everything I can to overachieve. So have a goal written down and affirm that every day. That's so, so, so big. If you're not telling yourself that every day, give up.

Give up.

Just give up.

Or start.

Yeah, well, or start. Yeah, yeah, just, just start doing it. Start being positive. You know, people aren't like that. You know, I've got a lot of people on that wavelength since they've started it. And they love it.

It is mental. Again, I was the weird guy in the office talking about all this sort of stuff in my office of 8, and I was the weirdo in the office, like, I can posit again in the office.

It goes— it's the possible, possibly the most biggest thing right now, all this positivity. And, you know, and I, I've read, you know, being, being negative, it actually shrinks your, your, your, your mind. I don't know what it's actually called, but But, you know, being positive, it allows you to, to think better, overthink. Yeah, yeah. And stuff like that. Being, being negative, it actually makes you narrow-minded, as a fact, like a scientific fact.

Yeah, yeah.

And I, I drill people on that every day, 100%. If people comes in negative, I'll bring them in here and I'll find out what's wrong. So I want it done, gone.

Can you be positive all the time though?

Yeah. Do you think it's mindset? Mindset. A lot. But I think my business play on mindset. We all, we all believe in it, but it's okay.

I personally, I, I'm— I couldn't agree with you more.

You can't be okay every day.

That's what I mean.

You have shit things happen. Yeah. How do you leave that at the door? Yeah, yeah.

That's what I mean.

It's how you manage it.

Like, at the end of the day, that's the thing. When you really realize— when you have a shit day, at the end of the day, when you realize you have the choice how you react to that, that's, that's, that's the game changer.

It's how you manage it. It's how I manage it for them.

Yeah. Okay.

I, I help them. That's what, that's what I'm here to do, is to be a mentor, to be a coach, to help them be better, you know, change their mindset, tailor it, you know. What, why, why is that irrelevant right now? And why is, you know, giving it 100% when you come out, come out of this meeting room, you know, relevant? You know, that's what people need to think about, is how they handle it. And I, I've, I've always handled it well, um, but I'm learning more and more about mindset and stuff like that because I think it's so big.

Yeah, so big, so important. Do you still build now, or are you always more—

I get on the phone. Yeah, yeah, I get on the phone every now and then.

Really? Yeah. But your— is your—

I'm like a BD director.

Really?

Yeah.

But then what are you doing the rest of the time?

Managing, vision, training, stuff like that.

So on the business and getting more out of your people here.

But like I say, I'm trying to bring in like a number 2.

Really?

If anyone's interested.

Um, you have to be positive.

Yeah, exactly. Um, because I want to focus more on, you know, generating some big accounts and stuff like that. Like this year I brought on Microsoft soft in multiple locations. That's great, um, but I want to start getting—

yeah, you know your strengths.

90% of my calls, client calls, are successful. That's— that's—

you go into that call really feeling and knowing that—

I know that I'm going to get something out of it because I, I know what I'm going to say. I'm going to give them testimonials. I want to— I'm going to hit them with my pitch, and it's my pitch. You can't have this pitch because it's my pitch, and this is how I do it. Because I, I can back myself up. I can send, you know, clients to my LinkedIn page and say, well, I've got 41 references on my LinkedIn page, clearly I'm doing something right, Mr. Client. Okay. And like I said, a lot of it is about, you know, letting them to trust you, but trust comes with proof. So if they don't let you prove it, then what's the point having a conversation?

Where's this business going then? What's the— what are you thinking about? Where are you hoping to be in the next year?

Next year we'll have 35 people. We have an office in Amsterdam. Um, we will, in the next 2 years, will be the market leader in what we do in Europe for quality. Not biggest, but quality will be, will be the best, um, in Europe.

Um, how, how important is headcount to you?

The right headcount is.

Yeah. No, I'm glad you said that. Again, conversation I had with a chap, like, if you were to ask him, yeah, a year and a half ago, 2 years ago, he's like, I want to be 30, 50, whatever heads. And he said, he was like, look, I got caught up on headcount. Headcount's vanity.

I don't have a big pot of money where I can just dip into. Everything I've done is organic, it's organic growth. So everything I do is very careful.

Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, no, I think that's— because again, if you think, if you go down to the pub and like, oh hey Jamie, how's business going? The first thing they're going to ask you is how many people do you— how many people work for you, mate? It's the same, it's easy to talk about, 100%. It's just an easy thing to get caught up on, like, oh yeah, do you know what I mean? But it's like, what are you getting out of that? What are you getting out of each person?

Is that profit? Yeah, yeah, profit, revenue, and growth.

Um, so anyone, if, if you were to, um, if you were to go back and start Interex again, would you do anything different?

Yeah, make the right hires. Sometimes, sometimes I've made the wrong hires. That's evident. Um, that's, that's probably the main thing. And I wanted to have an, um, I wanted to go in with someone as a partnership Really? Very, very— I would never advise doing it on your own. Yeah, ever.

Why?

It's just harder. You're, you're, you're the only person moaning at someone. You're the only person, you know, telling people how to work. If you have two people doing it, then they have to respect that.

Yeah, you know, that's interesting.

So, Matt, it's one of my biggest regrets. But, you know, not a lot of people— I couldn't work with a lot of people because they wouldn't be on my page. Yeah, I mean Yeah, yeah.

So my sort of final thing there was just going to be like, anyone listening that's thinking about starting a recruitment business or whatever, what, what's the sort of things— if, if me and you were sitting in the pub right now and I was saying, look, Jamie, I'm thinking about starting a recruitment business, I think it depends, right? Yeah.

If they've got backing, it's different.

Yeah, yeah.

If, if they're doing it like me, which I think that's the only way I can give experience on, yeah, yeah, is stick to the basics.

Yeah.

Okay, focus on billing a shitload of money, of course. Um, but don't get lazy, you know, have to have— don't get complacent, have your goal and, and be better. You know, I— when I set up this company, I said, right, I'm going to completely outbuild everyone. So I, I wanted to beat my old contract book in terms of GP per week, done that. I wanted to beat my competition, done that. And, you know, don't, don't set up the recruitment company money to, to think, okay, I'm just going to work 9 to 5. No, I was working later, harder than I ever possibly did. Yeah, people do the complete opposite.

How, how often do you think about your competition?

Never.

You've mentioned them quite a lot.

Yeah, beating them.

Yeah, yeah. No, the reason why I said is because if I think when I was in recruitment, I only know my actual market competition.

However, the only The only market competition I have is Nigel Frank. Apart from that—

but you're saying actual individuals, you know, your competition?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, the only reason why that— I think you could quite easily— a lot of people could quite easily say, oh, Jamie, don't think about your competition, mate, focus on your own thing. Do you know what I mean?

I focus on my own thing to be— I want to be known as, you know, the best recruiter in what I do.

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's great. I was just interested to see what you say. Um, Okay, before we finish and ask you the final question, yeah, what are you excited about, mate? Talk to me.

What am I excited?

Yeah, what are you excited about that you want to shout about?

I'm excited about where I'm going to take this business. Um, I'm excited about, you know, I want to start looking at being a— what, you know, winning awards, you know, for our great work and what we're doing. Um, I'm excited about taking a company overseas and global. I want to dominate what we're doing globally. Um, I'm excited for next year because like I said, now we really have a good culture and structure, real good nucleus, really good people. We now— we're scalable. It's all well and good scaling, but are you scalable?

Scalable, yeah.

And we're scalable.

It's an important point to make, isn't it?

It's major key, and that's what I'm excited about. Yeah, yeah, it is.

No, honestly, hats off to you, mate. Look, we're, um, I think, I know we've like, you mentioned it a few times, I think a lot of people in today's day and age can get caught up on age.

100%.

I'm not, I'm too young.

My age?

Yeah, I'm same as you.

Yeah.

But like, I think if you think in today's day and— well, I don't know what your perception is of this or whatever, your mates, whatever, but I think in today's day and age so many people can get caught up in age and like, I should be here when at this age, or I can't do that because I'm this age, whatever.

Yeah.

I think hats off to you, mate, because I think you just really, I think you've owned that. And if you've had a bit of a chip on your shoulder about it or whatever, but you've gone, you know what, I'm gonna look myself in the mirror and I'm gonna make this, I'm gonna do this. Yeah, yeah, I think more people need to own that, 100%. I think that's great.

Um, so look, last question, third last question.

Sorry, last question, mate. So, um, what I always ask people to finish this is if you could, um, communicate to everyone out there, every recruiter, they listen to to Jamie. Yeah, they'd take an advice, they'd implement it. Could be afraid too much, could be a sentence. Yeah, what would you say, mate? And they'd be listening. What would you say to these people if they'd listen to you? Could be a sentence, a phrase. What comes to mind?

Structure, focus, and discipline.

Structure, focus, discipline.

Yeah, there are 3 ways to be successful.

Yeah, fact. Structure, focus, discipline. Yeah, love it, mate. Jamie, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Cheers, mate.