Jamie Walker - Why the phone is the best way to win big-ticket business & cut through the noise

Welcome back to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Jamie Walker from Paratus People. Jamie's worked in recruitment for just under 3 years. In this episode, we broke down and dissected how Jamie has gone about achieving his weekly GP of over £20,000 a week. We really dug into how he approaches his day, his day plan, breaking into big accounts, working international markets, and so much more. Enjoy this episode. Jamie, welcome to the podcast.

I appreciate it, Hishem. It's good to be here.

Yeah, thanks for making the trip. Obviously we've had a few people now before. There's a lot of people that are in and around London. So you come from Bristol, right? Yeah. Person before you, Tom, from Wales. Had people last time from Manchester. So it's exciting. I'm excited to get more people in the studio. So thanks for making the trip. Um, obviously today, why I'm really excited to sit down with you, Jamie, and why I was excited to get connected with you was Obviously a lot of people who listen to this show are on the journey. Um, maybe one day they might think about having their own business, or maybe that isn't something they want, but I think a lot of people that listen to this are like in the thick of it, which is like where you're at today. You're obviously getting to the point of 3 years into your recruitment journey, so I'm really excited to sort of unpack the challenges, what you've learned, and why you think you've been able to really start building traction in your contract recruitment career, and then we'll break all that down. So What I wanted to start with, and it'd be great to get your thoughts on this, is just the million-pound question basically, and that's what do you believe are the common characteristics and traits that make up a high-performing recruitment consultant in today's market, do you think?

It's a good topic, right? I think everybody will have their own view and opinion on this, but for me, I think the biggest focus is probably having a bit of hunger and tenacity about how you go about your day-to-day activities. If you break it down into like the simplest forms of what you need to do, the job isn't actually that difficult. People make it difficult for themselves. And I think having the hunger to attack the difficult tasks is important. Um, I think going out there with a structured day is important. And doing everything with a bit of conviction, right? You know, and passion. You've got to enjoy, I mean, for me, I love my market. I really thoroughly enjoy my market. I think sitting in the discussions that I get to be involved with, it gets me really excited. And then a year, 18 months down the line, I'm starting to see everything that I've worked on with my clients being used.

[Speaker] Concrete, yeah.

[Speaker] Yeah, it's like, it's out there in the market, you know? I could go around my parents' house and I sit there and they're, flicking through their Sky TV, and I'm like, I was part of that. I built, you know, I've—

so just put it in context, your market is— we were just talking about when we like video technology for the home, but you, you explain it like how you would describe, like when you're down with your mates and they're going, what the fuck do you actually do? Like, how do you describe it?

Because I think that's, that's the funniest thing, right, is like my mates are just like, what do you actually do?

Yeah.

And, uh, so I describe it as like the digital TV sector.

Okay.

So anything, any device that you can watch a streaming application on, watch TV on, that's essentially what we're involved with. So, you know, the old traditional set-top boxes, the Sky boxes, Virgin boxes you see in your home, your smart TV applications, your Netflixes, your Amazon Prime.

And what sort of people then would be involved in businesses like that and that you focus on? Do you then have a niche within the type of people and skill set that you—

Yeah, so I focus on sort of software developers.

Okay.

Anything in the software development lifecycle. My team focus on 6 main development areas, and that usually enables us to go from proof of concept all the way through to taking that platform to market.

But it's all centred around, like you just said, the video technology in the home and digital video sector. So that's really interesting. So like you said, being willing to attack the day, have a plan, do the basics well. But then what— and I can tell your light faces up when you talk about it— but what's you— I guess what hopefully most people have in common if they're at the top of their game is that they actually are really curious about their market, they're really interested in it, they enjoy it, they're passionate about it, as you said. Um, so I guess just to frame this up for people, so obviously, uh, this, um, middle of this year you'll have your 3-year milestone, right? In recruitment, and that this has been your only recruitment job, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah, so where I wanted to start was like, who was Jamie before recruitment? Because obviously from what I saw, obviously you were in the Royal Navy, right, for a while. So talk to me about that. Who was Jamie? How would you describe Jamie before recruitment? Because recruitment is often an accident, people don't look for it, there's always some interesting stuff there. So let's start there.

Recruitment was definitely an accident. Right, but I think me before recruitment, I was probably actually a little bit lost. I joined the forces at quite a young age, right? How old were you? I was 17, 18 when I joined, so I was a young lad.

Do you have family in the forces that have served or?

Nobody at all.

Where'd that come from then?

So I grew up in Cheltenham, loved football, right? Typical football story. I've always thought I was just going to play football. Didn't work out, uh, and wasn't very academic either at all. I was like thinking, what can I do to carry on playing football? Didn't really have an interest in education or going to sixth form, college, anything like that. So I looked at joining, joining the forces, which is what I did. Um, had a great time in there, some great mates, very hard training, but I got to play football, right?

In what sense?

If the forces look at you and you're good at a sport or you want to progress with something, they will literally let you crack on with that.

Oh, so they would just play football whilst doing that?

Yeah, whilst learning my trade, doing my basic training, etc. So, you know, I spent a lot of time down in Portsmouth whilst I was learning my trade at the time. Which is warfare. And then in the evenings, I'm being shipped around everywhere to play football against other sites, against the Army, against the RAF. And just having fun with your mates, right? It was quite a big step for me, but I think for me, you know, as I said, I felt a little bit lost in my sort of early 20s.

You did that for a good number of years, right? Yeah. I saw on LinkedIn, like 4 or 5 years?

Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, it was, it was a big part of my life, right? Um, for me though, there was always something missing. I always thought that I wasn't being challenged in a way that I wanted to be challenged.

I feel like you were fulfilling your potential, maybe.

Yeah, yeah. So for, for me, I sort of— it was quite a, it's quite a tough period of my life, right? I sort of you know, realized that something that I had aimed to do for the rest of my life wasn't what I wanted to do. Didn't really have an education to, to fall back on or explore anywhere else. Yeah, I think I was 20, 21, 22 by the time I came out. Um, so when I came out, I was— felt a lot of pressure back onto the— call it Civvy Street, right? Back at my mum's. Yeah, going, what do I do next, right? And yeah, in Cheltenham, like, great, great town. Like, I ended up, you know, a friend of mine was working at a cocktail bar. I ended up just doing some shifts there just to like pass some time, try and work out what I wanted to do. Ended up somehow running an entire cocktail bar, really, a team of 7 people, 7, 8 people. And I did that for about a year.

Yeah.

Then realized that, you know, right, I'm getting sucked into something that, yes, it's fun, it was enjoyable, but again, not really what I wanted to do. I then got involved in car sales, right? I was like, well, I enjoy meeting people, I enjoy chatting to people, I had the people element in the hospitality. Yeah, like, it was great, you know, getting to know my customers, etc. So I was like, how can I transition that into a, into a job? Car sales, wicked. I did that for a couple of years and I did really well. You know, I worked with some really good brands. I moved to Bristol for a job.

Yeah.

Because of it. So I think I've been in Bristol now for 3, 4 years. Yeah, 3, 4 years, something like that. Wicked city. It's like a home away from home for me. I think I was always going to use it as a stepping stone to come to London, but like my heart's set in Bristol now. And yeah, so again, sort of got very good at selling cars, but I was working 7 days a week.

Yeah.

Getting in at 6.

Was it sales that you found? Because that's what I found. Like, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was delivering pizzas for Domino's. I was doing all different things. I ended up then deciding, you know what, what would be a good idea is doing 2 seasons of Magaluf. Did that. And like, but that ended up being the biggest catalyst because before I went there, I had no idea what I wanted to do, and then I just got myself completely outside my comfort zone, went there on my own, and the only job that I could get was sales, and it was commission only, do you know what I mean? So then I was in this environment where I wouldn't be able to pay my bills unless I sold things. So, but then I actually really enjoyed it because I was, I would say, I was a quite confident person. I could speak to people, but I didn't know there was a career in like utilising those skills, you know what I mean? Which sounds like you sort of went on a bit of a journey and then you found yourself in an environment where you were, the biggest thing for me that sales gave, I don't know if you found it, and then why I was so excited about recruitment, was like, you're rewarded by the effort you put in.

That's, I think that's exactly what brought me to recruitment. So for me it was like, I wasn't seeing a way in the dealership to progress my career, right? Unless I waited for somebody to leave. Yeah, um, that, that was the only way that I was going to ever progress. So for me, the turning point was I actually sold a car to somebody who owned a recruitment company.

Really? Yeah.

So this is—

what car was it?

Yeah, it was a Volvo XC40. I was working for Volvo at the time. Great brand, absolutely loved it. Um, and yeah, we got chatting and he was like, have you ever thought about a career in recruitment? I was like, it's never even crossed my mind at all. And that sort of sparked the interest.

Curiosity.

Yeah, I started looking into it a little bit and looking at different companies out there. And of course you can get lost, right, doing that because there are so many different recruitment companies.

I think, look, that's what I love about this industry, right? Like, if you just listen to yourself then, like, you went from a point of like, not sure what I want to do, probably putting a lot of pressure on yourself, difficult period. You then just lent into things that maybe you were good at. People, hospitality, then car sales, and then now obviously recruitment for the last 3 years. And there's no reason what— and the great thing about the industry is that industry wouldn't go, well, you haven't got this, so we're not going to look at you. Do you know what I mean? That's it. So let's break down this, this sort of last nearly 3 years then. So just to give context for people, so you've always been in a contract recruitment environment?

Always, yep.

So let's think about the first year, because I know the last year where there's been some real growth. So I think what would be really good for people is for you to share like the challenges, how that first year was, and then now in hindsight, the things that maybe you showed up and did each day that you think had a real impact on like why then things started to build traction. How would you describe your first year in recruitment?

Absolute baptism of fire. Like, it was mental. I probably, at the 12-month mark, or a little bit before that, did consider walking away.

Really?

Yeah.

So why didn't you?

So, for me, right, obviously I took a massive gamble with coming into recruitment. I took a big pay cut. I came onto a low base salary, which practically just covered my bills. For me, it was like, it was a sink or swim moment. So I came in, to a new market, new company, new environment. For me, this was where the challenge that excited me, right? This is probably where, what I was looking for. I was given a market, an area to focus on, which was testers. So, QA testers was my first market in the Netherlands. There was a bit of a bad egg that was hired at the same time as me, that was sharing the desk and really sort of negged me out. He obviously didn't last very, very long in the business, thankfully, because I think if he carried on sitting next to me, I would have probably gone as well. I did my first deal. So, I joined in August. I did my first deal in September.

Okay. So, it didn't take that long.

Didn't take long. I was out in Amsterdam on client visits with my MD and another colleague of mine. She started on the Monday and then quit on the Thursday.

Oh wow.

So I've gone from feeling, feeling, feeling great to—

How, how, talk to us about how, what do you do that day to deal with that?

I think for me, because I was so new into the business, luckily enough I was away with my MD at the time. He essentially said, right, you need to, you need to call her call the manager and ask them these questions and find out the reason why. And he sort of call coached me.

Yeah.

When we were in the car driving to Eindhoven.

Oh wow.

I think it was. Um, we managed to get to the bottom of it. It turns out it was just a— there was, I think it was a clash of personalities between the, the manager and the, and the contractor. Um, and we unfortunately couldn't save that, that, that deal.

Yeah.

But that gave me a bit more fire in the belly, right, to go out there and, and do more. Um, and then a few weeks later had the opportunity to— I almost put 11 people in to a project in one go. So I would have gone from 0 to 11 out like that.

Yeah.

The day before they were due to start, project cancelled.

Right, talk to me about how do you deal— like, I want to know, because this is what people really struggle with and part of the reason why people leave recruitment, right? Because they do all that hard work, they get to that point, and then oftentimes and sometimes they then have to deal with that, and it can be out of their control. That's bloody hard for people and something that people are like, you know what, I don't want to do this anymore. How do you dust yourself off? Like maybe like, how did you do it back then? And maybe how do you do it now that helps you get back onto just taking action and getting back into it?

It's testing, right? It is testing because when that happens, as you said, the amount of effort and work and conversations that go into getting to that point, it's relentless. For me, it's always breaking down the reasons why it's happened.

Okay.

And having a look at how you can potentially avoid that again in the future by implementing something into the process. That's it. I think you can never— in contracts, you know, projects will cancel. It's, it's, it's gonna happen, right? The best you can do is try and keep yourself aware of what's happening at that time. But for me, you always need to create a new plan. If you ever find yourself in a situation like that, you need to take yourself, you know, take yourself out of the office. I go for walks all the time.

Really?

Yeah, people will see me. I'll just get up.

What are you doing these walks?

I just put my headphones in, go for a walk around the block, and just try and analyse that scenario.

Okay.

Instead of making a rash decision, I always try and go, right, instead of reacting straight away, sit on it, think about it, analyse, what can I do, how can I do it, have a look at different options and then move forward with a good plan.

Okay, so for people listening then, I think what you're really talking about, which I love, is really encouraging, like if you do have those bad things happen, try and take a step back, try and take them as a bit of a learning opportunity. But I think the key part that I took from there is to, like you said, dissect it, understand what happened, and understand maybe parts that you could have done better, maybe could have avoided, learn from. But then also, as part of that, you'll— there'll be parts where you're like, you know what, I couldn't have influenced that or controlled that. So there's no point me just getting worked up around those things that I can't control, right? So I really like that. Okay, so when did you actually do— when did that first proper deal go in then? And then It didn't fall through?

Christmas Eve.

Christmas Eve, really? Christmas Eve.

Wow. 6 o'clock in the evening. Really? Yeah, so we finished.

So it took you from August.

From August.

Had things that you didn't quite get the ball in the net, and then it was Christmas Eve.

And then it was Christmas Eve.

Was it just one contractor out? Was it a project?

Yeah, it was one contractor out. He's still running for me.

Wow.

Now, like, we get along. Very well. Like, every time I go out to the Netherlands, we go out for a beer. You know, it's really cool. But yeah, I remember we broke up for Christmas. We had like 4 or 5 days off and I had this opportunity that came in like in the last few hours and I was like, right, I'm just going to carry on. I went back to Cheltenham obviously for Christmas and I'm sat at my parents' house in the kitchen on the laptop working. My mum's going, what are you doing? What are you doing? And I'm like, can you leave me alone? Like, I'm busy. And the offer came through.

It went through.

Went through, closed the candidate. He was absolutely buzzing. Something that he'd wanted to do for years. And yeah, safe to say that was a very enjoyable Christmas for me.

Talk to me about then, again, thinking about that mindset of like learning, growth mindset, In that period, obviously not the things that you can't control, like the, the customers saying we no longer have a budget for this, things you can't control, but what do you think are some of the things that you did maybe differently that you feel that did why that deal actually happened, or it actually went through? Not the things that you couldn't control, but the things that you can control, you think?

I think, I think for me it's, it's, it's having the relationships there, right, with, with the candidates. Okay. I only work with a real select handful of people, and I like to really get to know them, not on just a career level or what they do, but on a personal level as well, right? Because I think when it comes to matching them up with teams, hiring managers, if you can match not only the skill set but a personality and, you know, a good fit into that team, then there's no doubt that when you get to final stages of closing the deal, that both parties are super interested and happy to work with each other.

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Yeah, so obviously, you know, coming into recruitment, everybody was like, well, recruiters got bad names, right? And I was like, well, why have they got a bad name? Understood the reasons why. I've set myself out there to be different to the stigma. Of recruiters out there. As you say, right, moving away from just transactional relationships to actually having a partnership with a client. I think that's, I think that's very important.

So talk to me then, so did your first deal, good Christmas.

Great Christmas.

I bet.

Yeah.

So let's go into the next year then, because I think we were talking before we started, at one, I think the next sort of key moment, correct me if I'm wrong, was then you sort of identifying or picking up on this sector that you now really love working in. Talk to me about how that happened and why you then sat down with Tom and presented to Tom why you think this is a really good opportunity for you and why you want to really attack it. Talk to us a bit about that.

So I think for me, the company had a big focus around IoT, but the company was built on video technology.

Which is Internet of Things, isn't it?

Internet of Things, yeah. Again, probably ask me a question on that, I haven't got a clue, right?

Okay, so yeah, so the business you work for is known for that, but you said they didn't do as much in—

Yeah, Tom built the business on, on video tech. He, he was a video tech recruiter.

Okay.

Um, you know, that's, that, that's, that's how he came about. Um, for, for me, we had a lot of potential and a lot of good understanding in that market, and we weren't really utilizing it to its full potential. So sat down with Tom.

Why did you think that though? I'm sure everyone could maybe see that, but no one said anything.

I think for me that everybody was attacking IoT, we were going, you know, going hammer and tongs at IoT, and, you know, we had a few house accounts there that were video-based that were checking out quite a lot of roles, which is where I did my I did my first placement.

Yeah.

And then I took the time to sort of go out and understand the market. And once I realised how big that market was and the potential there, I said to Tom, I said, look, we're sitting on something big. There's ample opportunity out there as well to grow, to grow it to a phenomenal size, right? And he listened to me. He looked at it and that's where he gave me the green light to go ahead and start focusing purely on—

And that was like 9 months into your journey, right?

9 months into my journey.

So talk to me about, just getting a bit granular here, what were some of the things that you, that got you excited about the niche and sector? Was it the amount of like vacancies? Was it, you know what, from the companies I've spoken to, they told me how big it could be in the next 2, 3, 5 years? What got you really excited?

What sort of indicators did you find I think for me that it was something that everybody uses daily, right? Everybody has a streaming subscription of some kind. Everybody does.

If not all of them.

If not all of them, right? I'm an absolute nightmare for it. I think I have about 7, right?

Yeah, I'd say the average person probably has quite a few, definitely more than one, I would say.

That's it.

Probably not better than me, but.

So, for me to be able to go, right, you know, sit there at the pub with my mates and go, I'm working with this company, you know, I brought this app, over from America into the UK and European market. For me, that was what was exciting. I love movies as well, right? So, for me, it's something that I'm always using. I have an understanding of what they're looking to achieve in there. Yeah. When they launch a product to market, right? So, for me, I just found it really interesting and—

It sounds like it was just a bit of common sense really that this is always going to be needed. if not even, it's going to become more and more popular, more and more companies are going to want to have some sort of opportunity to give something to their customers in the video digital way. Okay, so let's start talking about from that moment then. Talk to me about what was— obviously you said that you had some stuff going on, but maybe it was being left alone or you weren't— the team weren't focusing on it as much because they were on the IoT stuff. What was the plan then? What did you say to Tom, right, this is what I'm going to do? What was the approach?

So, I mapped out my market. Again, I was only working the Netherlands at this point. I think as well, I did one of, I think I did a perm deal actually, the rare perm deal. I think I've done 5 in 3 years, but this was a rare perm deal that I did with a client in the UK. So, I started to map out the market, what it looked like in each individual country in Europe that we were involved with, what it looked like further afield, and tried to have a look at sort of what emerging tech was going to be prominent over the next sort of 2 to 3 years, and essentially built out a full, uh, BD, business development list, really, based around that.

So talk to me a bit about that just quickly, because you hear that a lot, don't you? And I'm sure you've helped guys and girls now with this. What does that exercise actually look like? Is it, I'm going through LinkedIn, I find one company, I then might find their competitors? Like, just talk to me a bit about what that process actually looked like. It may sound really simple and basic here, but I think that it's good because you hear that terminology a lot, don't you? Market mapping. But how did you actually do that?

I think it's so important for people to do. People take it for granted. A lot of people will do it at the start and then they won't do it again. Yeah, I try to always keep in tune with what's happening in the market. So for me, it's all about forums, conferences, webinars, newsletters. There are a lot of clients out there that will write a personal newsletter on their own view on what's happening in the market. I sign up to those and I just try to absorb all the information possible, write down sort of keynotes about what's the sort of common topics there?

And the purpose of that isn't, isn't because Jamie wants to become a video digital expert in a sense, as in like you can then do a job in that industry. It's about all about understanding what's going on in the industry that I'm trying to help support and grow, right?

Yeah.

That's sometimes where people can get lost, I feel like, is like the people may view that as like they're trying to, they're trying to get all this information in so they can be as competent as the people that they place, but you're never going to be as competent as those people are, and you don't get paid to do that. So why you're doing that is because you can then have a better grasp of like where things are going, the insight, right?

That's it. I mean, when you talk about competence, I could barely use a laptop when I started at recruitment, and Tom and Sam will tell you the amount of times that I was just calling them up and saying, my laptop's broken. I need a new one. So I would never be a software developer, right? But for me, it was being able to understand the process that they go through when developing a product and being able to talk about that with candidates and with clients as well to show that, you know, yes, I'm a recruiter, but I understand what you're— what—

I'm always consistently learning. I'm trying to engross myself in the market industry.

That's it.

Okay. So let's just reverse engineer then from like where you are today then, and then we can get into this. So, in terms of weekly GP-wise, where are you at today?

Just over 20.

Yeah.

At the moment, so.

So as we were saying, I think it's something that we were saying before we started, right? Had someone sit down with me, Marius from SR2, who got to around 15, 16. That was a great milestone. And then like externally, I think sort of 15, 20, whatever, I didn't work in contract recruitment, but it's considered a quite hefty and like really successful milestone. So let's unpack this, 'cause there'll be people listening to this that want to get to that, have huge ambitions to get there. So I guess the first thing to sort of ask really is like, what were some of the sort of key building blocks or key milestones that you think really enabled you to get towards that point and get to that point today, do you think? Let's sort of start there.

So I think the first lockdown, I think COVID was probably the first key milestone, right? You're at a point where the world stopped, everybody's shut in their homes 23 hours a day. All I did was just double down on work. I sat at my desk from 7 o'clock, in the morning till 10, 11 o'clock at night, just doing new business calls constantly, constantly. And it sounds ridiculous, but that was probably one of the, the first steps to, to getting to where I am now, is I just spent time not necessarily calling up and trying to win projects or trying to get a role, but just checking in, understand what's going on, people you know, building relationships with managers, building relationships with candidates, clients, and understanding and mapping out my market through that. And I think that was probably the key point. I think when the world started to open up again and projects started to go live, I started to get inundated with people were calling up going, you know, I remember you're an expert in video tech, I'm looking for this, or I'm looking to build a team of x amount of developers for this project, can you help me? And that was like a real turning point of going, wow, okay, like everything that was banged on to me to do during the first 9 months is now starting to— you're starting to see the fruits of your labor. Yeah, right through that.

Love that. And then I think one of the other things that you shared with me, right, was then obviously typically you'd always done that Amsterdam market But then you obviously then internationalised as well, right?

Yeah, so I've probably got like sort of 3 or 4 key clients per geographical location.

Yeah.

And I branched out and carried on branching out, so I now cover North America, UK, EMEA, and APAC as well.

Talk to me about like getting it right in those different cultures or environments. How would you like— is there much difference in terms of how you approach things? Is it just the nuance of like— what are the differences?

It's very different from area to area. So, you know, in Europe, mainland Europe, everything's very direct, you know, business first, straight to the point, which I like. You know, it's not to say that everybody's massively different, but it's just the way that you approach business is just different. With each country. For me, again, something that I enjoy is actually finding out, you know, building that relationship with people and understanding their views and their culture and adapting to that. I think that's like a big, big part of the reason why I branched out to the size that I did.

What are the other— obviously, I think I was saying to you, right, a lot of people are on this journey of going to America. What have been some of the key differences you picked up there, do you think, that you have to get right, or?

It's, everybody's looking to go to America now, right? You know, we started to look at it 2 years ago. For me, it's, you don't want to go there just because everybody else is going there. You want to go there because it's the right thing and you want to implement the right level of service to clients as well. So for us, so for me in particular, I focus more on US businesses that were looking to come over to the UK and Europe and be in that bridge for them so that they can understand the market and I can tell them or introduce them to developers that they wouldn't necessarily be able to attract in the first place. I think that was probably the key difference.

So, obviously, I think something that's been quite fundamental in you getting up to this point is like getting some like really big accounts, right? Then what you call it, MSAs or whatever. Um, obviously not looking for names here, I don't need to know what clients, but I guess like looking at that and how you've achieved some of those things, obviously people will be interested to know. These accounts and customers and logos can oftentimes be some of the most difficult to get in with. But looking back in hindsight, when you got some of these doors opened, like, what, why do you think you was able to do that?

Persistence.

Really?

Yeah, persistence.

But I'm sure there's so many other recruiters being persistent, so.

I think you've always got to be able to add value at every point or every touchpoint that you have with a client.

Okay.

My best account and one of my favorite accounts to work with took 19 weeks of negotiations.

19 weeks.

19 weeks. I started it in, started it in February and had it all signed off in the September. Wow.

And how do you stay focused and engaged in that long of a process?

I tell you what, right, I literally physically pulled my hair out, right, over it. It was crazy because, you know, it was a really good like initial engagement. Everything was going really well. Everything that we had, they wanted. Um, uh, so we started, we started interviewing people, um, started presenting people to them. And then for, for them, they were, they were coming over to the UK and Europe, right? So they're exploring all of their different legal routes. And so there was no clear direction into how we were going to get an agreement in place, right? So that took a little, little bit of time. Once we had that in place, it was then right all of the legislations for recruiting remote people in the UK and Europe to work alongside their regulations in, in the US. And as we got further and further into the negotiations, it turned out our candidate pool would get shorter and shorter due to different agreements. And it's like, right, you know, for, for us, it's having, it's having the valuable adding value to each conversation. So every week we would have a meeting with them, an update meeting.

Well, there's 19 weeks.

Over those 19 weeks, a meeting about, you know, if there was a big change, like, right, let's get together, let's discuss it so everybody could understand because everybody was learning at the same time. So we did that together as a pure partnership, basically.

So I guess what I take from that then, there would have been a lot of recruiters that maybe wouldn't have been willing to commit for 19 weeks.

Yeah, wouldn't have been to, like, some people get bored, like, well, just don't bother calling back, right? I've seen it so many times.

Just think it's too difficult, it doesn't happen.

Too difficult, don't want to deal with it, I'm going to brush it under the carpet.

So it's one thing getting these, like, big house, big logos. Talk to me about what's Jamie then done to, like, really maximise opportunity then, which has then maybe led to like you then getting bigger logos, other companies, like, because I think there's one thing working with Hard, then like the quote-unquote the real work starts, right, where you're then having to deliver on the agreements, help support. What do you think you've done well and how have you sort of made sure, yeah, you then maximise your opportunity? Because I know it's then led on to bigger things.

Yeah, I think, you know, again, it all comes down to relationships, right? Don't just look at a placement as a placement, you know, look to really support that client in, in that area and, and, and build the relationship with them to the point where they're going to refer you to, to other managers, right? So one of my other big accounts started off as a, as a small company in, in Canada. They were acquired by a big business, and then those managers at that, that company sent my name out to the business, and before you knew it, I had a global agreement with one of the largest streaming businesses in the globe, right? Yeah. I think that's important, is showing the level that you would go to to support that hiring manager and deliver on what you actually say. If you do that and you do it well, then, you know, Yeah, they're, they're just going to support you.

Where do people— because I think what you're talking about there is like, as a recruiter who's in the thick of it, can maybe miss, like, um, not see that that could happen, if you get what I mean. Yeah, it's like, where do you know what I mean? Like, clearly what you had yourself up to, really good standard, you're really committed to delivering great service, all these things, and then because you showed up every single day and delivered on that, that meant when an opportunity like that happened, which you couldn't plan for, they said, look, Jamie, he's lived an outstanding experience, this is why you need to speak to him. Yeah. Where do you think recruiters go wrong? And like, because I think it's sometimes being short-sighted, right? I don't know, it should be interesting to get your thoughts. I'm sure you can see this as other people, you have to remind them day in, day out, no, if you keep doing this, good things will happen.

Yeah, simple, isn't it? You don't ask, you don't get. I always ask, is there anybody else that you can refer me to in the business? 'You know, I've done, I've delivered on X, Y, and Z for you. Is there anybody else that's looking to implement something similar in the business? I'm more than happy to have a chat with them. Let's just have a chat to see if I can help.' And that's where the referrals come from.

So, let us go into some granular stuff, 'cause I'm interested to get your thoughts on this before we finish. So, I want to definitely ask you around like your day plan. Don't know if you're an organised person, but people wouldn't know this. Obviously you've got a high reach TGP, so I'm assuming there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff going on. But when we spoke before, um, in preparation for today, something that you said really stuck with me. You were saying around like how sometimes you feel like recruiters can get lost in like, or just get confused with all the different ways now that you could do recruitment, if that's doing BD, sourcing candidate, these things, right? And I know that clearly you're someone that's willing to try different things. You've got a podcast that you do that I've seen, and you're obviously building your brand a lot. But I wanted to ask you, like, you were very dead set on, like, for me what really moved the needle was every single day I wanted to focus on doing the basics extremely well, and that's what I really focused on. So talk to me about that. How can people master the basics? And in your perspective, what are the basics for a successful contract recruiter that you keep top of mind?

Yeah, so like you said, right, it's With everybody trying to be different to everyone else out in the market, there's, there's so much noise out there, and it is so easy to get lost in the noise. And if you're trying to focus on 20 different things that can improve you as a, as a recruiter or as a person, you're not really going to put, as you know, 100% effort into all of those 20 things. For me, I, I went back to, right, what was I doing in, in lockdown? Right? How did I build my desk to where it was? So the basics for me are always just picking up the phone and building a relationship over the phone, right? We're in a mad digital world at the moment where it's so much easier to send a text, an email, or a LinkedIn message to get something going. I, myself, I've got rid of like socials because I just can't deal with the noise. And the clients and candidates won't really look at LinkedIn anymore because they're getting hounded by recruiters on there. So picking up the phone and just building relationships is like a basic skill set that I think that you need. That's important. Organize, organization. Granted, hands up, Tom would probably laugh at me, I was not organised at all for about 2 years.

Really?

Yeah, I was a mess. I would essentially just come in with an idea. How did that fail? I don't know, right, so it's kind of chaotic, but I quite like being chaotic a little bit, right? For me, I always had like a main focus, but I would never really plan a day properly. I've really started to do that in the last year, which is where I think, again, I made the stepping stone to get to my weekly GP. So I will plan my day, not to the T, but I will set 6 important tasks that I need to achieve the next day in order to get me, yeah, before I go home, 6 important tasks I need to execute the next day in order for me to achieve my goal. By the end of the week.

Okay.

Um, so organization, being on the phone, and basics— just following through, just deliver on what you promise to clients and candidates. Nobody likes being let down, right? And if you let the client down or the candidate down, ultimately you're going to let yourself down, and that's where you're going to find yourself in a funk. Right. If you've tried absolutely everything that you can to deliver on something that you've said that you're going to deliver to, then you've done, then you can finish work knowing that you've given everything. I think for me is like those 3 areas are so basic and people glaze over them so much.

I think it's with those things that you said, they're mixed with like holding yourself to a really good standard, relentless commitment. So talk to me about, before we finish then, um, talk to me about, just give me some more details on what that day plan might look like then, because this is what people love, mate. So you said before Jamie leaves, he's going to think of, um, he's going to understand what the 6 important tasks are for the next day that he has to, that are non-negotiable, that he has to do. Won't leave the office until they're done. What does that day then look like? Are you chunking your day into things that you need to get done? Like, what does your actual day look like?

Yeah, so I run my day in sprints, okay, in 4 90-minute sprints.

Nice.

Um, I don't do any admin at all in those sprints. I'll break that down into either a business development sprint, so I'm gonna, you know, I won't even put how many dials I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna go, right, I want to have 3 or 4 conversations with hiring managers with a goal of what I want to get out of those conversations, right? Whether that's a follow-up book call, a new bit of information about the market, a new role, etc. There's probably 3 or 4, 3 or 4 points I look at there. The second would be making sure that my team are set, ready to go, spending time with them, coaching them. You know, I'm working with some really great guys at the moment and I want them to be as successful as I am. So the more that I can feed down to them, the quicker that they're going to get to that success as well, because it's fresh, I've done it in the last 2 and a half, 3 years.

When you're doing those sprints, do you say like, don't bother me, or like, obviously I'm here if you need me, but I'm going to be focusing on this, so?

Yeah, so I give them access to my diary so they can literally book in a time to speak to me.

Yeah.

They'll see in my diary, you know, the reasons why I'm blocked out and what I'm doing in that time. So they will just, they will just leave me alone. And I'd get them to come to me with a solution, not a problem. Okay. Because a lot of people will come to you with a problem and they haven't thought.

So how do you get people to do that? You say next time.

I say to them, I was like, right, if you've got a problem or something you're struggling with, think about it, come to me with how you think you're going to tackle that.

I'll listen to that and then I'll help.

And then I'll help.

Rather than, Jamie, I've got a problem with this, or I've got a challenge with this.

Yeah, can you, can you help me?

Yeah, yeah. Why are you getting them to do that?

Because they learn that way. I learned that way. Tom did it with me. I was a nightmare of going, Tom, I've got this problem. He's like, 'Have you got a solution?' Yeah. 'No, I haven't got a solution.' He's like, 'Right, come to me when you've got a solution.' For them, it gets them thinking of what they potentially have to do in that scenario. And then when I spend the time with them on that, on that point, they'll then learn how to deal with that scenario. So when it comes up again, they'll know what to do next time.

I love that. So as we come to the end here then, what, what's Jamie keeping top of mind now? Like, you've Clearly it wasn't. It's a bumpy road. You put in a shitload of work, commitment, blood, sweat, and tears. You now obviously got to a point where you're successful, you're achieving good numbers. Must feel great considering like where you was however many years ago. What are you keeping top of mind now so you don't become complacent? Or I don't know, what do you keep on top of mind to try and maintain this performance whilst also obviously trying to enjoy the journey, right?

Yeah.

What's top of mind here? And then let's sort of end on this. What do you keep top of mind to keep you at the top of your game and maintain that performance?

So I've got some pretty big personal goals that I want to achieve, right? For one, I'd never even thought I'd be earning the money that I'd be earning today ever in my life, right? I've got a real passion for property, so—

Do you want to invest in property?

I want to invest in property, like whether that's, Buying a house, flipping it, doing it up and flipping it, looking at buying, building a sort of letting portfolio.

Yeah.

You know, but that takes money, right? So I have a financial goal that I have to hit that can enable you to do that. And, you know, if I don't do the deals and I don't maintain where I'm at at the moment, that goal is only going to be further away. And I want to get to that as quick as, as quick as possible. So that's probably my main driver behind why I do what I do.

And then anything else, any advice for other people listening to this as a final thing that could be useful if, like, I don't know, they get to a point where, like, for example, I think maybe sort of where you got to now, you've been thinking about getting to this point, it'd be great when I get there. Now you're here, it's like, right, what's the next thing I need to keep motivated? So clearly you've done the work on, like, right, this is my goal and where I want to get to personally. But any other advice for people listening to this that, I don't know, it can be quite difficult when you get to like a really high point and then remain motivated, right? Anything else that could be helpful for people?

Yeah, I think just focus on just securing the next deal. If you focus on securing the next deal, then the numbers will add up quickly. We were talking before, right? Sam walked up to me in the office in January and goes, 'Do you know you're running over 20K a week?' And I said, 'No.' And he was like, 'Do you know, do you know what that's, do you know how big that number is?' Yeah, you weren't thinking about that. I didn't have a clue. Yeah, I was just thinking about getting the next candidate in, securing the next project. Yeah, that was what was important to me. I just, the figures, yeah, cast aside.

Jamie, thanks for coming on the pod.

I appreciate it.

Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, Please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.