Jane Middleton & Harriet Lavender from Trapeze HR - Show me a job that can't be done flexibly!

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Harriet and Jane, who are both the co-founders of a recruitment business called Trapeze HR. And, um, hello! We just had to change room to room.

Perils of, uh, co-working.

Yeah, so we're in a really cool co-working space, um, near Liverpool Street. And the original room that we had, there was loads of chairs moving around upstairs. We had to move, didn't we? So we're in a better room now, and I'm excited to speak to the both of you. And as I was saying before we started, where I always love to start and begin this show is how the both of you entered the lovely world of recruitment. Please do share.

I'll go first. So I am an HR generalist by my background. I've worked in HR the field of HR for 25 years.

Wow.

And as part of an HR job, a lot of recruitment is done, and I've always enjoyed the recruitment side of things. I've preferred hiring to firing, always. And it's, it's something I feel I sort of thrive in. And so when the opportunity to work more in recruitment in more recent years and then set up a recruitment business with Harriet, I was really excited to—

So you started in HR and then went into recruitment? So, yeah, your perception of recruitment must have been interesting from coming from that side and then going into recruitment.

Yeah, and I've worked in lots of different industries doing HR, so I've worked in hospitality and leisure sectors, so sort of hotel companies, and then I moved into financial services and banking. So those two worlds are very different anyway. How recruitment is done is very different in those worlds, and the type of people you're recruiting is very varied.

And how did you get into, uh, recruiting, Harriet?

Um, I temped at Michael Page years and years ago just as a PA.

Okay.

Um, did some traveling and then actually started as a teacher, but someone I met at Michael Page started their own recruitment business, so I was asked to go and join him when he started about 15 years ago. And I decided, however much I love teaching, it wasn't paying enough, so I'd go and join him. So I kind of fell into it, um, and I actually started there as more of a support for the other co-founder, um, and then just really, really enjoyed it. Um, and that's—

so what was your perception of recruitment at that point?

Um, I knew that it was cut— quite cutthroat because obviously Michael Page being very big and international, um, and I was in the City office, you had high targets. And I— it was kind of the periphery of my job. I didn't really get involved, but I heard about it and I saw, you know, what a good biller and consultant was in their eyes and what were not so good. Um, But I actually am a relationships-based person, so I was never looking at recruitment like that. I was never looking at it as billings. It was more around actually I really enjoy meeting people. Yeah, exactly.

That's really interesting.

Um, and then fell into Oakleaf, which is my old company, and where we met.

Yeah. So to sort of, to sort of set the scene then, so the both of you worked in recruitment for quite a long time. Yeah, fair to say.

20 years.

Yeah, 20 years. So then, so the both of you met at a recruitment agency called Oakleaf. Yeah, right. Um, and you worked at Oakleaf for— I was there in total over 10 years. 10 years. And then, and then did you then— when internal, didn't you? You said—

yes, I was there for 8 years, had twins, then moved into EasyJet in-house role for 2 and a half years.

Yeah.

Um, and then wanted to work more flexibly, so rejoined Oakleaf, um, to start the flexible working desk with Jane.

Okay, cool. And then that led you then to the point where you are today, which is— and for you then, Jane, just so then everyone understands, so that, that's how you got to this point. And then yourself, Jane, how did you get to— so you started in HR, worked with a numerous amount of industries And then you went to recruitment.

So, to wind back a few years, I have a family, and as my young family came along, the world of HR, and particularly HR in investment banking, wasn't as open-minded to how you could work in a job with sort of flexible working in mind. So I happily worked there flexibly for a number of years, but then when I had another child and I, I wanted to work more flexibly, but banking didn't enable that. I thought, right, I'm done here. I need to continue my career, but I still have my home commitments. So I set up myself as an HR consultant.

Okay.

Um, and stayed in touch with quite a few recruiters in case some roles came along that I could do flexibly alongside my consulting. And I, um, wanted to sort of do more in the world of flexible HR recruitment. The seeds were being sown back then, and I approached Oakleaf and, and had a chat with them about how setting up a desk, which Harriet and I then did together, there could be something that they should be doing. Someone should be doing more about it. And they were very receptive to the idea. That's where my recruitment focus sort of properly kicked in.

How long did you do that desk together for?

Um, I was there for 2 and a half years doing it, and Jane, I think, for 3 and a half.

Okay. And then after that, you then made the decision to start Trapeze?

We were really enjoying what we were doing, and it became apparent that actually, probably, um, in the part-time kind of flexible space, we didn't have a lot of competitors. And we thought, why not go and do this ourselves and do it our way.

All right, so just to be clear as well, what you guys have done since up until that point, up until now, and is completely dedicated to the flexible and part-time niche—

the 4 and a half years that Jane was at Oakleaf and the 2 and a half years I went back to, we dedicated to the part-time flexible market.

Yeah, and that's what you do now, right?

Yeah.

And then, and is it in different sectors or is it just across sectors?

Um, SMEs, startups, and some more established businesses. Yeah.

Okay, cool. So before we, before we sort of unpack what, what's been going on, because how long has Tropez been going on now?

For 15 months.

15 months. Okay. Before we— because I'm sure you've learned a lot along the way in that short time— I'd be— I'd love to sort of, um, get some of your perspectives on, um, I guess leading up to that point, because I think that both you've been on a really interesting journey, right, in terms of being internal to being an agency for nearly, well, over a decade, right? Um, and yourself going from HR background, etc. So I guess just to help me understand, the people listening, the both of you then, have you had experience in managing teams, building desks, etc.? Is that what you did over that time in the agency world, or was it not? Was that more yourself, or—

No, I, I didn't ever choose to manage a team, really. Um, I think the opportunity wasn't there when I was first at Oakleaf because we were still growing. Um, And then when I came back, I selfishly wanted to work flexibly, and therefore I don't think that always comes hand in hand with managing teams.

So the both of you have always focused on billing for your own recruitment desk, building your own relationships, and building your own desk individually.

Yeah.

Okay, that's interesting. And okay then, so why don't we then— because I think, um, it will be really useful when we start talking about trapezes— let's focus on, um, the time where the both of you were building up that particular market, the both of you. So Probably the most common thing I get asked around is, Hishem, my biggest challenge, or what I'd love to get advice around through the people that come on the show, is people building desk, people building client relationships and business development ultimately. So I guess, what's been your experience with that? And how have you typically focused and executed that in your career?

I think this needs to be based— No, no, you can go. But this needs to be based on trapeze because I think we were— at Oakleaf, it was PSL clients. Okay, so that, that wasn't something we built up. We were, if you like, lucky in inverted commas to get a client that we already had at Oakleaf that then thought we might look at the flexible market. So Trapeze is the area where we actually have built up a desk.

Okay, that's interesting. So why don't we instead then, why don't we talk about— because that may sound easy, but I'm sure there's still an element of work tactic, strategic element to expand an account, to say, well, actually we're currently doing this for you, have— how open would you be for us to doing this for you, etc., right? Or not?

Well, I think one of the reasons we've done what we've gone and done and trapeze up is because we felt quite constrained by the environment that we were in, which is fair enough. We were in a big recruitment consultancy, very well known, highly thought of, but there were parameters around what we were able to do or we had scope to do or budget to do. And the freedom to do it in a different way on our own meant we could talk to anyone we wanted to. We could break down the doors and go and talk to private equity clients, venture capitalists, new, new growing business sectors that that, to be frank, a lot of the recruiters out there aren't— haven't even scratched the surface of. And so that was what was— never negatively, but just burning away of— we could do so much more.

Okay, so was it more of like, obviously there's always already existing relationships, so they— there was decisions made where you could try and speak to them or whatever?

And I don't know whether it was we couldn't, it's just our day-to-day job didn't lead it to that, to that. And now we've got the freedom to speak to who we want when we want.

Okay, well, let's talk about that then, if that's the case, because I think a lot of people get a lot of value out of that. So how have you gone about building the client bank over the last 15 months?

So inevitably our network has come into play, and that's been built up over the years that Jane's had an HR and I've had an HR recruitment and in-house. Um, I think part of that. And this is where I, you know, if I may be so bold to say, my strength is in building relationships. So, um, at the time, you know, I might have had a job 10 years ago that I filled, but I always filled it with the best of my ability and really got to know those candidates. And now we're seeing those candidates come back as clients. And, and as always one does, you follow your recruiter. So you might— they might work for a recruitment firm, but you don't go to a recruitment firm because of that, um, firm. You go because you've got a great person there.

Sure.

Ordinarily. So that's how we've built some of our business up.

And I think, um, we've recognized that we're two people, we've got different strengths, capabilities, skill sets, and Harriet's recruitment sort of expertise and my sort of HR brain and the fact that I've worked in different sectors, and we've got some pretty extensive networks between us that we've very sort of openly gone to and met with and marketed our proposition to, and they've been very receptive to it. And even if they haven't been able to help us with giving us a new sort of head of HR role, they've probably known someone who can.

Yeah. So you've really leveraged your existing networks.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And I think there's something to be said for doing a job well. So we take a really consultative approach with clients. A lot of our clients from the startup space or SMEs who could have, you know, even 200 people and still haven't had any HR presence at all. So quite often it's let's go in and have an exploratory chat about what HR actually does. And obviously people have an idea, but they don't really understand the strategic element or the kind of this is how your business can really thrive with someone in the people space. Um, so a lot of it is groundwork we put in. Even some of them was 12 months ago, 13 months ago, um, and we're just actually yesterday a client we met months ago has come back with an opportunity for us. So we, we put the groundwork in, if this is what it looks like. And a lot of these entrepreneurs are very young, so they haven't actually even worked in probably more than one other business. So it's that consultative of this is what we can do for you, this is what HR can do for you, and then we leave it with them.

And a lot of what we've found we end up doing, as Harriet just said, is educating our clients about what HR can do and what an experienced 3-day-a-week HR person can add in terms of value to your business. Because people just think of process and procedure, but there's a whole gamut of other things— employee engagement, culture, you name it, change pieces— that HR can do, which some, some business owners have no, no concept of what HR can do.

It helps also that our backgrounds are— I've been in-house, but Jane's an HR specialist, so we actually know our market really well in terms of what HR can offer and the types of people out there.

And I guess what you were touching on there, which I think is really interesting, have you always had a long-term mindset and approached building relationships that way? Do you know what I mean? Because I think that's where a lot in today's day and age, right, if I don't get something now or in the first 3 months of this relationship then it's a lot easier then for that relationship to fall off the cliff, where then it's not coming to, well, actually, no, we did.

Yeah.

Did you get what I mean? Have you always like—

how it sounds really enough? I think I'm just like that as a person, really invested in people. If I go out— no one has dinner parties anymore— if I meet someone, I'm actually genuinely, as my friends say, quite nosy and annoying because I like the detail, but I'm genuinely interested in their lives. Um, and I think that transports into work as well. I think that's just how I am, and Jane, you are as an individual. Um, So yes, it's— I've never thought of it as longer-term relationships. I actually really enjoy getting to know quite intuitively. Yeah, I like getting to know people. And the candidates or clients I'm speaking to now— someone phoned up yesterday and I helped her in her first HR job 10 years ago. You know, she's remembered me, which is amazing. And actually, you have to be really honest, I don't remember everyone because they get married. They, you know, we all change and we go through a lot in 10 years. But I love the fact that they've obviously remembered me, um, you know, and come back.

Just to break that down, because Clearly you've done that quite intuitively, which I think is amazing. But someone listening right now who may not be quite naturally good at that, and yeah, what would, what would your advice be to someone that, because you're clearly intentionally or naturally leaving a mark on that person or really going above and beyond for that person, which means they will come back in 10 years, like, what would you say are the core key things that people can actively consciously do to hopefully help that happen or start building that? Do you get what I mean?

Yeah, I— so first of all, I think there's two types of recruiters. There are probably many others, but in my view, in my view, there are two. One who wants to make a lot of money and move on fast, or just make a lot of money. And the other that wants to make money but actually, um, and it doesn't mean to say the first type doesn't care, but actually really cares about what they do. Um, and I think if it doesn't come naturally to you but you do want to do a brilliant job and you're in it for the long term, then you just really have to think about about who you're speaking to, how you speak to them, and care. So that means going back with feedback if they're not right for something, taking the time of day. And we can't get back to everyone, obviously, and nor can Jane and I. So you have to pick and choose. But as long as you put yourself in that person's shoes and think, I'm a job seeker at some stage in my life, so this is how I'd like to be treated, I'm a client and I want to make sure that the recruitment consultancy is representing my brand and me properly, then actually that goes some way into building a relationship and a trusted relationship.

Do the right thing.

There are some words— we're very, very values-driven as a business, and, and I think words like integrity and passion are overutilized and not understood at all. So we don't use them about ourselves, although I know I've got passion for what I do and I've got buckets of integrity, as has Harriet. But I think what we're trying to do is bring back a very human element into the recruitment experience for our clients be they candidates or the employer of the, the job that we're hoping to fill for them. And just flipping everything on its head and, and being down-to-earth honest with people. And the hardest calls to make are to candidates who you really wished had got the job, but you have to deliver some pretty blunt feedback. We package it as best we can, but we're really sorry, the reason you didn't— you weren't successful. And, and how many recruiters don't bother?

We want them to learn from that. We did have one candidate, you just kept getting knocked back because, um, she came across as really aggressive. And actually, that's feedback I've had myself in terms of how I talk to people.

Sure.

At home, you know, and at work kind of thing. And I really wanted to give her that feedback because she'd had it from 4 jobs and she's got brilliant CV and excellent experience. But that— and that's not something she can necessarily change, but she needed to be aware of it.

Sure.

So we had to package it— I'm sorry, we had to give it to her. We couldn't package it up as, you know, oh, it's something else. We had to say, your CV is brilliant, you've got the experience, but you are coming across this way. And she was thankful. Yeah.

And I think tying back into what you're saying there, and that person coming back to you, I think it's those difficult conversations that if you're willing to have now, that person will be grateful for years' time, 2 years' time, 3 years' time.

You'll be remembered. We do small things to sort of remind our candidates. Placed candidates get a gift from us when they start in their new job. It's not— it's just a well done, we're so pleased that we've found you a great opportunity that enables you to work in the way you wanted to work, flexibly, etc. And as a nice little— so little touches, little human touches that the bigger, bigger companies probably can't do. But we're small and we never plan to be too big. We have vision.

And you know, that's, that's the, the type of experience you're going to create and, yeah, have a point of difference, right? I mean, it's so saturated.

Reputation is key for us. Um, we want to be remembered for being— having— giving people a really positive, engaging experience that's down to earth, straightforward, and and just says it how it is in his own integrity. Integrity.

And I think just to, again, trying to make it as practical as possible for people listening, when you said around that client who came back recently and you actually had a meeting with them a while back, like how, how do you then structure that sort of process or structure in your daily, weekly plan to make sure that that does happen, if that makes sense? You know what I mean? In terms of cultivating these relationships, that long-term mindset business development, leveraging network, like how does that typically form then in a typical day in your world?

So we feel quite strongly about adding value to what our sort of what we do as recruiters, that it's not just about selling and the idea of them hiring through us. So all the little value-add things, we have some sort of thought leadership events that we host and trying to get people to come and have a roundtable discussion about— well, yesterday we had one on mental health.

Okay.

Um, and got a group of really well-informed senior HR people, business owners, entrepreneurs talking around a table for an hour over breakfast around what, what can we do to make a real difference.

That's amazing.

Um, and that doesn't cost us very much money. It costs people time, and people made some good connections in the room, and we've heard that people are having lunch and coffee together next week in the room. So we're adding value to that day for those people, and we'll do another event in a couple of months sharing our network, isn't it? Yeah. And so value, value-add initiatives that are—

so you've also implemented them strategically, obviously, because you're paying forward and you want to put these people together and you're trying to actually make a positive difference, which is what you're about. But also then, I guess, for let's say client X that you spoke to 12 months ago, or in between that, you can actually contact that person and say, well, we actually have an event, by the way, and So you've created other sort of touch points that—

yeah, and when we, we end up connecting quite a few clients outside our events anyway because they might say— and, and it's maybe easier in inverted commas in the startup world because they need quite a lot of help in some areas and, and inspirational ideas. So it's, it's, you know, easy to say, well, have you met John Smith? Because actually he does this. And so we've connected that way. And also our coach club's been really great, and that's why we set that up. We have amazing HR, um, interims on our— in our talent pool, but a lot of them are coaches, which is why they want to do flexible working in HR. And We were like, we've got all these people who are so talented in coaching. Why can't we offer the coaches more clients, but also offer our clients some coaching availability? So, you know, that's not an initiative that's gonna make us lose money, but it's initiative that's gonna help our clients and also help our coaching pool.

No, I think that's really smart. And I guess the events piece, that's actually come up quite a lot over the last 4 years. I think it's quite common, right?

Yeah.

Have you always done that, like, since starting this, or when you was at previous— in the previous company?

We didn't really do a lot of it at Oakleaf because, um, because it was, I guess, a business-wide thing, not just— yeah, sure, there are a lot more people there. Um, we've done it here, but we've been able to pick the topics that are close to clients' hearts. So next month we have one on culture, and we've got a particular client.

How have you decided on the points there?

Well, because we've got a particular client on that one who wants— who's asked us around, how do you think I get more of this in my culture, or how do you think I grow my culture? We've had another client having to be kind of, um, told that she needs to hire 40% females in her senior population. So how does she do that? So we had one around diversity and kind of that.

You're using the conversations you're having.

Yeah, so that's again direct help for that individual because hopefully more people will come with their thoughts on that and how they do things. Um, but it's also topic of the moment.

So providing solutions to the problems that our clients face is, is exactly how we feel we can add intrinsic value to what they're doing day to day, aside from the fact that they might hire an HR person through us. We're giving them a solution by gathering together a clever group of people who've all got opinions, all got stuff they've done well, differently, and they can add that to the pot. After an hour of sitting around a table, we all come away with, "That was a really good idea that John mentioned about what he's doing about culture in his tech startup." So that's a key thing for us.

And has it made you more money doing the events?

We haven't been doing them long enough to know that, but what we do know is that— and respect isn't quite the right word, but I think we're valued, we're seen as valued members of their network. Um, next Wednesday night we're going to Sea Containers House, hopefully to have a nice glass of wine with a client that we worked with over a year ago, a PE firm who have got a massive event and they're a private equity firm who have loads of portfolio businesses within their, um, reach, and they've invited us. And I actually did email back and say, you sure we're on the list this year? Because we were— we came last year because we were working with you. She said, absolutely, we'd love you there. And I believe we've kept in touch with them throughout the year, and not for anything other than we've built a relationship with them, so we want to keep that. Um, and we've asked them if they want to come to our events. We've offered our coaching, which is actually for the next couple of months kind of a free taster session. Um, and we— and when we did work with them, we really, really spent time going into the nitty-gritty of what they were looking for, what HR could do, and that sort of thing. And actually, we've never placed with them. They've got an interim in which they found through their own network, but they want us to hire when she leaves at Christmas. So, um, you know, those are the sorts of things that we're really, um, valued for, I think. And just by the fact we've been asked back shows that.

Yeah, no, I think the reason why I ask that is because at the end of the day typical recruiter listening, right? It's like, yeah, these events sound great, a lot of people do them, but like, how is it gonna— how is it gonna affect my recruitment desk? Yeah, I mean, same thing with marketing, same thing. Absolutely.

But that— then it's a long-term game. I know it's not a game, but you're working for the future, you're not working for the now.

And then— no, totally. And I think as well, if you— and I think that's got to be the mindset when you do, do initiatives like this, do you get what I mean? If you're going in with a simple mindset of, right, how is this going to affect my billings this year there's a very high chance that you may make a decision on that basis that you may not get the best people in the room, or what— do you get what I mean? And I think that that's the way you should approach it.

And, you know, I did say to Jane this week, um, or last week, we've worked for 4 days and I haven't done what I would call any recruitment. And Jane said, but this is BD, it's all BD. And it absolutely is. But it's hard to see when you're looking at your bottom line thinking, what have I bought in this quarter?

Yeah.

When you're not actually working on roles for the now. So we've got a few roles on now, but we obviously haven't got as many as we'd like because everyone would want more. But actually, all the things that we're doing, all the initiatives we're doing, are paving the way for the potential pipeline. And if they're not next month, they might be next, you know, month after that.

So, okay, that's really interesting. So have the both of you always— so you did a bit of consultancy before. Have the both of you always wanted to have your own business?

Never even thought I would do it.

Really?

Well, I, I was kind of forced into doing it because my options were limited to work, to continue in my HR capacity, continue with my career, and quite ambitious about it, and juggle home priorities. So I was slightly forced into becoming a consultant. Enjoyed it, and it gave me loads of flex. Yeah, but, um, it's much more fun doing it with someone else, really.

So like, would you— so thinking about just now in this short 15 months, like If you would, you go back and do anything differently?

Yeah, lots of things different.

But I do believe, and you hear it all the time from people who start businesses, um, we've learned from them. I wouldn't say they've made us stronger like people say, but we've learned and it's made us more cautious in other areas.

What would you say is the— what, when I say, when you think about that, what's the sort of thing that comes to mind straight away?

In good ways and bad ways. We tried to mirror what we knew, so that was getting a system in place quite quickly. Well, we hardly use our system and we've paid a lot for it from day one for both of us to have.

We know all our candidates, I don't need to look it up on a system.

You don't tell me you have some like weird black notebook that you've—

No, but we probably should have done, or an Excel spreadsheet, save us money. So that's been one. I think also just being aware that we aren't a big business who's established, so things are going to be different. And with the highs and lows of recruitment anyway, you just kind of have to be aware of that. But I, I can honestly say that I've changed as a person. I never thought I would do business. I didn't have a lot of confidence around this sort of thing.

Why not?

Because I guess until you try, you don't know how good you're going to be, and I don't like failing. Yeah, no one does really like—

yeah, of course.

But I also— and I don't know if it's an age or a stage of life— got to the stage where I'm like, I've got quite a few more years to work, but I've already— I'm 42, so I've got some years under my belt. Um, and if I'm gonna do it, this is the time.

Yeah, because I guess there's a lot, a lot of people— if you were sitting in a I don't know, anywhere, maybe some friends similar age, they'd be like, oh my God, why the hell would you do that at this age? It's quite— I feel like it'd be quite easy to just say that to you and they'd be like, why would you do that? No, just stay working, you're employed.

I knew I wanted to leave my last business and actually Jane, um, mitigated the risk by saying if it doesn't work out you can get another job. And I, and I'm, I'm not cocky, but I know that I'm good at what I do and I care. So I think if you're good at what you do and you have a passion for it, then you will get another job.

And I know, I think that's a great question to ask yourself, isn't it? Like, what is the worst that could happen?

Yeah. And if it all goes ptom, then we'll find another job. But it's, it's going really well and we're enjoying it. It's, it's fun and work is fun.

Yeah, I think that's all.

Mainly, mainly, it's certainly never dull.

No, I know. I really think that's got— for me, I think personally that has— that's got to be the objective, isn't it? I think especially in, in recruitment, it is a very unforgiving job. So like, if you— even when you're doing well, you're not that happy or that pleased, then you should be looking— yeah, do you get what I mean? Since you did mention the highs and lows there, I guess you said you've changed as a person and these types of things. I'd love to understand a bit more about have you had to cultivate more resilience? Have you had to have different conversations with your family because you have to work a bit? I don't know. Do you get what I mean?

What are some of the— I know I seem to be doing a lot of the talking, which is unusual because you normally share it. I'll interject. So my resilience has always been something I've found difficult, and that's been picked up in my career in the past, and I take everything to heart and I wear my heart on my sleeve. Um, but I think growing— I've grown as a person because I've learned to take, um, things on the cheek or whatever the expression is, on the chin, yeah, um, cheek in this circumstance, and move on. And actually I've kind of enjoyed seeing myself grow, which sounds really weird, quite like airy-fairy, but I have. Um, the conversations with family and friends, yeah, my husband's constantly saying you're working every evening, blah blah blah. And I, and I do, and I don't like it. And we've promised ourselves that we won't do it after a certain time of the evening, um, and we've got commitments elsewhere, either with family or, you know, Pilates or whatever it might be. So we don't sit at our desk and work. But equally, that means that if we want to leave at 4:30 to go and pick our kids up from club early or whatever, then we can do that because we know we can always log on for an hour after in the evening. But my resilience has definitely changed. And growing.

How have you cultivated that then? Like, have it— like you said, you said it's airy-fairy, whatever, but I think what you're talking about is self-awareness, right? You've noticed that, well, actually, the resilience is something I did always have to work on. That's something that now I've really had to swallow and get better at. So have you, I don't know, included something in your daily habits, or I don't know, have you done anything that has cultivated that, or has it literally been, well, actually, it's really little things.

And this is going to sound bizarre to people who don't know me, but lady on the train dropped some litter the other day And I would ordinarily have got really annoyed with that and just sat there and thought to my mind, why is she dropping it? If everyone dropped it, this train will be covered in litter. I said to her as I got off the train, would you like me to pick that up for you and pop it in the bin? She said, no, no, no, I'll do it in a minute. And she may well have been doing it, but she dropped it and kind of hidden it under her chair. Now it sounds ridiculous, but for me I was like, oh my God, I've just said something I wanted to say for ages.

Yeah.

So that is— all those little things are making me grow in confidence. And that's not a resilience in the workplace example, but what it means is I know that I can do things and they don't have to come out in the wrong way, or that I can have the confidence to follow through with things. And if they're not well received, she could have told me to fuck off or something. Yeah, but I was prepared for that because I thought, I've got to try it, I've got to try. And the same in work, we have to try things. If they don't work out, the coach club might not work, something, another initiative might not work, but unless you try, you're not going to know.

And I think the openness that we have as co-founders of a business with one another has grown immensely in the last 15 months. We knew each other pretty well to start with, we are good friends, we've got lots in common, we're also very different, but are you coming at this from the same perspective of how we want to run the business or how we want the business to be positioned? Um, and we have a very open line of communication. We don't hold any grudges. We bicker, we spat, we fall out like sisters, and we— it's done, move on. No time for baggage. And which, in a bigger organization where you might fall out with him on that desk because you don't agree with his approach with the client that we're working on together, we just say it to each other and we're— it's done, move on.

We're passionate about things.

Yeah.

Has it been like that from day one, or have you had to— what have you had to implement? Like, I don't know, do you know what I mean?

No, we haven't. I don't think we have. We— it's just been like that.

It's just been quite natural that— and how much has it helped the both of you that you're doing it together, do you think?

Yeah, I couldn't— I wouldn't want to do this with anyone else.

Really?

I couldn't do it on my own. And So it's—

why is that, do you think? Like, what, what's, what's so unique and powerful and special about doing it with another person?

Recruitment can be quite lonely, as we all know, and you can work really hard and something doesn't pull off. Equally, you can not do much work on something and it comes off and you're like, wow. Um, so I think especially if you're running your own business, you're never sure where the next money is coming from. In it, if you're employed by someone, you know you've got a base salary.

Sure.

So you almost know what you're going to be doing month for month. Um, so that's that's a, you know, big pressure for anyone, whether you've got family or not. And you can bounce ideas off someone, you can get a sense check.

I think our yin and yang of complementary skills, as we've mentioned sort of earlier, is, is quite unique in a recruitment sort of sense, because it's quite unusual to have an in-house recruiter who's got a lot of agency experience paired with someone who's this— not subject matter expert, but has worked in the field you're recruiting into So when we line up in front of a client, that's pretty compelling. And what we then say, because we know we're good at what we do, makes it even more compelling. And so we know we're good without sounding arrogant.

No, I got you.

We know we've got substance and we'll be honest with people and we'll tell them straight.

And no, no, I think, look, obviously I, me, recently started my own business. It's on my own. I think what, what's also great about that is the accountability piece as well, right? So you're saying about sometimes you want to work late and stuff like that. Well, it's not just on your shoulders, it's actually someone else. It's everyone else, right? Which I'm sure can only help the drive and the decision-making and these types of things, right?

But we can have an idea this afternoon and start doing that.

Yeah, that is the cool thing.

You don't have to get it sanctioned by some higher— we might chat to the husbands or let them in, but we'll probably tell them in a couple of months' time when it's been going for 2 months.

Yeah, yeah.

But, um, it's that freedom to make decisions and to say that I'm not happy with that, that's working, can we tweak that?

So I'd really like to, um, dive into the flexible working piece, because I think it's such a, um, I don't want to say buzzword, but it's so easily used and said these days. But before we do that, I'd love to get your point, because you just touched on it there in terms of, um, internal experience, you've got agency experience, etc., etc. Like, what, what's your approach now? And I guess what I'm trying to think about is people listening, and even when I was a consultant on the agency side, like, there's always that sort of friction between the internal recruiters and agency, right? So like, I guess people listening who do come up against that, who have always got that constant balance of should I just go to that line manager but internal recruiters tell me not to, and we've got a good relationship, I don't want to, um, obviously damage that, etc. Like, what's been your sort of whole experience from being internal to agency, and what have you learned that has enabled you to make sure that you get the internal, the internal recruiter? Did you get what I mean? What, what do you think about that?

So I have always, um, some might say played by the book or being a bit boring, but even if I know the hiring manager really well, I would always then loop back in the recruiter or the HR person internally because there's absolutely no point, um, bypassing them because at some stage you will come up against them as your main client. Yeah, um, in the near future or even at that company. So again, that's about the relationship piece and the respect.

So as I was just saying, what I'd love to get your thoughts on Being— when you was an internal recruiter, or when you're an internal, like, what do you think are the common mistakes recruiters make in terms of damaging that relationship? Because I'm sure you'd have experienced then, because you've been inside, you always was mindful of them playing by the book or whatever. But then going internal, like, what were the common—

the flip side? So the other side is when I was internal and we use agencies, which wasn't, um, that much, they would go straight to line and say, but I know James really well, and I— he's told me to send CVs. And I'll say, but that we have a process. And that's the thing, everyone has a process, whether you're an agency or in-house, you have a process to follow. So if someone's bypassing that process, then there's no trail, um, you know, there's actually no fairness in a sense because other candidates haven't been able to get a look in. So I guess it's, it's about giving everyone an opportunity. So, um, I don't think it works to play the short game and try and get in there quickly.

But the common mistake would be, well, actually, no, I know Harriet and yeah, she says I'm great. And yeah, but then all of a sudden the internal person probably got their back up a bit then because you sort of stepped the line and, as you said, not respected their process, which is their process.

Yes, and quite often that role might not materialize to anything because, you know, you've got people to get sign-off with and everything else. If they've gone in because James thinks that he's got a job but he hasn't actually gone through the proper routes, you might end up doing all the work as an agent. Yeah, and actually not have anything done. So I just think it's always— even if James has asked you to work on it, you then loop in the recruiter and say, just so you know. And that's a conversation for the internal recruiter and the client to have. Not for them necessarily to have with you.

And from an— when I was on this sort of HR side of things, and that happened regularly, the recruiter would go straight to the line manager in the bank I was working in and say, well, I went to school with Jeremy, I want to send my CVs directly to Jeremy. And I was like, well, Jeremy's admin is not very good. You will lose your CVs. We will have no trail of what's gone where. And to be frank, if you upset me on this, then we'll just blacklist you and we won't use you as a recruiter. And you then tell your boss that that's happened. So I suggest you play ball.

It's a bit of respect, isn't it, for the in-house recruiter?

I mean, I think it is. I think it's— you said in a nutshell, respect the process. It's their process, it's there. So, but again, and I guess just to, just to wrap that up then, like, if I'm a recruiter right now listening and I'm just really struggling to get this internal or the internal team, HR, whatever, on my side, what's like the go-to?

To try and get these people on your side, to meet them first of all.

Really? And just really gone for a meeting.

I think if you're on a large PSL list, you're gonna like preferred supplier list, and they can't meet every agency, then, you know, there is always that problem because they don't want to spend their days meeting agency. But you've got to differentiate yourself and to grow a relationship. You either need to meet them or spend time talking to them on the phone and getting to understand how they work and, and telling them a little bit about how you work and why you're different to the next person.

Okay.

And, and how, or how you would like the recruiter to behave differently. How can we be different to ABC next?

To ask those questions? Yeah, that's really interesting.

And try and find a hook that's going to differentiate you against others.

But I think ultimately, have a long-term mindset, double down on the relationship, respect the process, and just keep at it. And I think then it's about hoping that will lead to some sort of window of opportunity where then you've got put your money where your mouth is and actually be what you said that you was going to be. And then did you get what I mean? Yeah, that sort of makes sense. Okay, so flexible working then. The reason why I say it's really, really common in these types of things is— so what I do with people that I work with, um, when we— one of the things that we do is, um, really think about their target audience before we get them creating any content, right? So I would say one of the most common challenges for different sectors that I've worked with, their candidate that they're trying to attract and engage with online is flexible working. And more and more candidates that they deal with and speak to want flexible working to become more and more important to them, etc., etc. Why do you think that is in the, in the night life as a whole, that people are searching for flexible working?

Because life is so busy. So there's two different types of people, if you ask me. The, um, the guys coming up, the millennials, which I can never say, um, who don't just want one job now they want to be able to have some side projects or do a little bit of portfolio business area, which is what we see.

Yeah.

Um, or there's people at a certain stage of life who actually think, I've worked really hard 5 days a week, and as we grew up, it's kind of 8 to 6 or whatever it might be, and I want to do something different. So they might have elder care responsibilities, they might have childcare, they might want to do yoga, might just actually want to spend their day off riding. We've got quite a few candidates who do exercise in their day off and might book some of them. So So I think life is now, um, entwined so much with work and home life. It's not two separate things that people actually see it as. If I can get a bit of flexibility in my job— doesn't necessarily mean part-time, but it can mean agile working— then it'll enable me to do other things.

And would you say that typically— again, quite broad— but that could typically enable people to be— have a bit more happiness in their life? And do you know what I mean?

Absolutely. And also, um, with technology nowadays, as we all know, it's not a new thing, you can work from anywhere. So if you've got a long commute or even if you haven't, you could save that money or time on commute and maybe go for a run in the morning, or actually just have a coffee quietly in your house, or whatever it might be. But you're not always having to run out the door or something. So you gain 2 hours back, 10, you know.

How realistic is this in recruitment?

You only need to look around to see that, to try and be attractive to potential recruiters, agencies are offering all kinds of things, unlimited holiday, flexibility, working from home. Home, no core hours. So I do think it's, um, realistic. When I was in my old business, in the early days, I— there used to be a lot of clock watching from my manager and from me. He would be waiting for 6 o'clock until I could leave, and I'd be waiting till 6 o'clock because I'd done all my stuff and I was ready to go. Um, you know, I was the highest biller on some of those occasions, but I'd done my work and I was ready to go. So I don't think the hours you work necessarily dictate how good and successful you are. I think if you're sensible and you want to do a good job then that is irrespective of the hours.

And when we talk to clients today, yesterday, tomorrow, when we go in and see them, we encourage clients not to think about hours and days, think about output.

Interesting.

What do you want this person to achieve in a day or in a week? And, and the project that needs to be completed. And, and you have to judge people on their performance and and this is my HR brain obviously kicking in as well, um, not about whether someone did 9 to 6, 5 days a week, because they could have been doing nothing in those hours, or very ineffectual work, or very unprofitable work for the business. But if you judge people on what they produce and deliver and how they come across to clients in those meetings, and because they're happier because they've got a slightly shorter day today because they get to go home and walk their dog, or—

yeah, no, that's really— I really like the way that you put that. And I this, how— what would you say is the typical sort of challenge or pushback a typical business owner would give you, or give me, if I'm saying, look, I'd love the opportunity to have a bit more flexible— like, what do you think is a typical challenge for a business owner that's sort of holding them back from going, I'm not sure, I want them to be at the desk all day, like, I'm not— I did, you know, I mean, what's a typical—

their preconceived sort of ideas, or how they had to work. And it's a generational thing. Um, the guys and girls that we speak to who are in these new age businesses, tech, high growth startups, private equity-backed new world sectors, they, they— everyone there expects to work flexibly.

It's no, it's not just the standard expectation.

It's the more traditional financial services, investment banking, legal, accountancy, where everyone always works Monday to Friday. In, in our organization, it's, it's a little bit more of an alien concept.

They're missing out on talent. That's our biggest thing. There is a massive talent pool one of the main reasons we started this. There's a massive talent pool of candidates who want to work differently— women, men, all ages, all shapes or sizes— who want to work differently, but because, um, they're not offered opportunities, they're missing out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's— no, I absolutely love that. And I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. That just thinking back to— so I recruited in the insurance sector, and yeah, as soon as someone says to you, oh, I can only do 4 days a week, straight away it's like, I can't do anything with that person then. No.

And it's so true, you get put into too difficult to help box.

Yeah, totally.

And I was that candidate when I was leaving the bank where I decided to go to consultancy from, because I just sort of— oh, hi Jane, sort of consultant on the phone talking to Jane Middleton, who's a candidate, we like her, she seems quite decent quality as an HR person. The minute I said I'm really looking for 3 days, oh, we haven't had a 3-day job on for years. And this was 10 years ago. The world has changed immeasurably, and in our time just doing trapeze, it it's come on and the dial is shifting.

Yeah.

And these new businesses that are promoting it, that it's not unusual to be enabled to work more flexibly. That's great. That's pushing the dial.

What I'd love to get your perspective of, and I guess advice for people listening, like if I'm listening right now and I've done recruitment for a while and I'm more than capable of, yeah, being responsible for working at home or wherever it is because I'm comfortable managing my diary and whatever, right? Right, how can I approach that subject with a recruit? Like, how would you go about approaching that recruitment business owner going, look, you know, I feel like you can trust me, like, how can I start proposing flexible working?

So a good track record in terms of billings and, um, you know, being, being there, sorry, rather than absent helps obviously, because if you're someone who's underperforming and you're not showing up, then, you know, that's that trust thing. Um, and actually Oakley for me was the prime example. I'd been there for a few years before I had kids. I worked 4 days a week, and that's just because I wanted to work 4 days a week. I wanted a day at home, had a long commute that I wanted to just do stuff on. Um, so I had a, um, a conversation and I talked about the fact that actually I would be better in terms of how I worked and smarter in my work, um, if they could give me a trial with 4-day week. Um, and obviously we had to talk a little bit more detail about how it would work, who covers my work on the day off, how that might work if someone placed best job I got. Um, but actually it worked really well and I did it for a whole year and then I actually fell pregnant so I left anyway.

But you know, I guess it starts with actually, let's be honest with, let's be honest with yourself. Have you bred trust with the person that employs you? I, I, yeah, like you can't just do it because it's like cool and it's what I want to do. Is it something that you really thought about? And actually you're someone that when I go into that office and ask it, that they're gonna go, well, okay, that's fair enough because you're someone that's— yeah, yeah.

And you you know, it's the same old thing— don't bring me a problem, bring me a solution. So I had a solution that on my day off, this is how it would work. So, you know, if someone else was going to do my work, then they'd get a split of that or whatever. So it wasn't, okay, oh God, everyone else is going to have to pick up your work on your day off, they're not going to be happy with that. So effectively, they wanted me to be as good as I had been. I, I needed to actually have a day off a week now. So to be able to perform, that's what I needed. But to enable someone to cover my work so the business weren't losing out, that's what I could give them.

That's really interesting. So, okay, yeah, because I'm just trying to think, like, I guess it's a mixture of first and foremost, yeah, make sure you've built some real trust and they trust you. And then it's like actually put a bit of a business case together and actually think about it strategically and smart if it's something you really want. And I guess there's no real element then as well, is like, is it actually something that you want? Do you know what I mean? Because I think it could be like my friend who's a recruiter, he works 4 days a week. Like, that sounds great on the face of it, but but what— how does he actually structure his day? Like, how does it actually work? Is that something that would work for me? But I guess there would be an element, as you just said there, a trial period, because you don't know until you try, obviously. But if you do try and you work at home, it's like, oh my God, I hate it. Like, I need to be around the office, blah blah blah. But you don't know until you try, I guess, right?

And if there's a recruiter out there wanting to work more flexibly, then A, why haven't they contacted Trapeze HR? And B, maybe think about other people in your organization. I'm thinking female in particular. If there's people in your organization who are at your stage of life who are challenged with childcare issues, and if you can afford to drop to 3 days, have a conversation, put yourselves together as a job share, and proposition your business owner and say, could we share a job? And we'll, we'll come up with some clever commission structure.

I think it comes back to that question, what's the worst that could happen, right?

Exactly. And if you're miserable and you're going to leave anyway, at least at least try the known trusted route of your employer that's paying your salary currently.

Yeah.

And it could be win-win. You keep your client relationships, you get that continuity, everyone gets continuity, known colleagues.

Um, because I think that's— that you touched on an interesting point there. So, um, a while back I did a sort of Women in Recruitment Week, and sort of what came out of that— what came out of that, which is— was really interesting, is obviously there's— it's always conversation. I think it's across my sectors why there's less obviously female CEOs and all these types of things, right? And I think a real big part of that is that obviously as a guy, there's— I don't get to a point where I'm pregnant and I've got to make the decision where it's like, okay, so I've worked my absolute socks off to get to the point where I'm in my career, but now I've got this sort of really weird decision where I've got to pick, okay, am I going to start a family or am I going to— and then, and then in the types of organizations they work in, it's, it's actually either or. It's Well, actually, you can, you can do both. And would that be fair to say? I think that's a real impact on why there isn't a lot of females at the top of the food chain or whatever, because they've had to make that decision.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's mental.

And what I think, again, we talked earlier about our job as pioneers or ambassadors of the flexing, flex working movement in HR. I had a complete mind blank about what I was going to say. It will come to me, it will come to me. And that our education and awareness building side of what we do, which again, some larger recruitment owners would probably think, I don't want my recruiters going in talking to clients and sort of consulting to them. I want them getting jobs on. Where are the jobs? Well, part of our work is almost like a social purpose element to it. Whereas if we can educate some business owners to recruit differently and think about if you hire Janet 3 days a week to run your HR platform and she's going to cost you 50 grand for the 3 days, she used to earn 120 in her old job, but she doesn't need to earn that anymore. But what you're gonna get—

clout.

The clout, the experience, the credentials, the senior management capability is— you can't buy that. And if you paid 50 grand for a 5-day-a-week person, you'd get a much different level of experience.

So you've sort of gone on to the point where I wanted to, um, ask you about— to sort of, um, finalize this again, thinking about people listening and the conversations they're having, because these, these recruiters now will be constantly be getting the question, oh, is there flexible work and these types of things. So then what I was just trying to say on the flip side that you sort of touched on there is if I'm a recruiter right now and I've really started to notice that candidates I'm now working for 4 years ago didn't say flexible working is important, how can I now approach that with a client that I've got? Do you get what I mean? So I think, is it coming from the education piece?

Yeah.

And recruiter goes to client and says, I've got some brilliant 5-day-a-week candidates, but I'd love you to look at this 4-day person. They are really, really high quality. I'd say they're probably as good, if not better, than the 5-day people. Please consider him.

So is it again thinking of— if I'm, if I'm a recruiter listening, I'm going, right, okay, so there are definitely a bank of people in my market right now that only want 3 days or 4 days, but my client hasn't told me that they're open to flexible working, but everyone's telling me they want it. Is it then, um, yeah, making sure firstly that these people are actually good? Secondly, obviously, I'm actually, um, creating a bit of a business case and making sure that that business case is solving a real problem. And talking about sort of the way that you just spoken about there. Well, actually, this person can, um, achieve this for your business on less time, and she did cost this, but she should cost that. So we actually really put together a really good business case, particularly if you're in an environment where you're struggling to find the client talent.

Then why not suggest someone? Yeah, and you're then being a creative, imaginative, entrepreneurial recruiter.

Yeah, and someone who isn't great is just gonna go Yes, client, I can do that. Yes, no, I'm not. Push back, be consultative. Yeah, that's really interesting. So that— yeah, okay, that's really cool. Um, conscious of time, that's went quite quickly, didn't it? Yeah, no, I actually love that, and I think that's really valuable to talk about that, and I think a lot of people will get a lot of value out of that because it's just becoming so, so, so important. So just, just to finish off then before I, um, ask, uh, what the both of you are excited about on these types of things, like How do you see this panning out in terms of this whole flexible working thing in the next sort of 5 to 10 years? Obviously you guys are banking on it quite a bit.

It's already changed, as you said, in the 4 years. But even if I look back to when I wanted to work flexibly 10 years ago, so my kids are 8, but as I said, I started working 4 days a week before that. It's already changed. Technology's enabled you to work wherever you want to work and however you want to work. So actually being present in the office is isn't so key. There are some jobs, and HR is one of them, where you have to see your client group and get to know them and build that trust. So obviously there's that— I need that face-to-face time element. But I think it's only going to go stronger. Look at the world around you. Look at the startups. Look at the SMEs. Look at the new generation coming through. They don't expect to be in an office space the whole time. Look at this office we're in, co-working space. You know, people flit and come to and from. They're traveling all around the world. So flexible and agile working, and we're careful to put them both together. Part-time used to be what we talked about in our old business, but flexible and agile is now. Because that's the difference, just because part-time is probably 2 or 3 or 4 days a week, so set days I work part-time, whereas agile is you can work how you want to in terms of the hours. So it could be 9 to 3 or 10 to 2, it could be from home. So there's that kind of agile workforce, um, where some offices grow so big they don't have a physical office space for everyone. So there's kind of that agile hot desking, and sometimes you from a home base or you work somewhere else.

Yeah.

And then flexible working, we've got a role on which is 5 days a week, but there's 2 days from home, 1 day you can kind of decide your hours.

Okay.

So I think the whole piece is more seen as a flexible as opposed to this is straight part-time. And also, there's a— part-time's a little bit like the old traditional HR person now.

It does have that touch to it, doesn't it?

Yeah. And I've been called that before when I was, when I was in a house role. Are you the part-time person? Off you go. And it'd be a bit like, what?

It's already, um, a bit of— it's a bit apologetic as well.

Yeah, it's so true.

I'm working part of the time.

Yeah, yeah, it's so true.

It's just not very— it's not very intelligent language around what someone's doing a cracking job for you, they're just not working the full week.

It's so true, because if you say to me, oh yeah, I'm part-time recruiters, oh, you're not a serious recruiter then.

Yeah, you know, I mean, that's what our clients used to say to us. Oh well, if they're part-time, are they giving up the ghost of it?

Yeah.

And we'd be like, oh my God, no. They just got other things in life that they also want. Yeah, so they can do this for part of the week, but most, you know, most of them are still as good if not better because they've got less time. They're smarter at how they work.

The thing that I've noticed in the time we've been building up our sort of brand with Trapeze is people have stopped apologizing for wanting to work part-time. Don't apologize. Don't say, I only want to work 3 days. I want to work 3 days. Don't give it a descriptive adjective or whatever only is and sort of try and apologize for it.

The language is really important. Yes, that's so important.

And flex— flex working is here to stay. Millennials, Gen Z, Gen Y, whatever they're called— I don't mean that flippantly, but I can't remember. Yeah, yeah, Gen Z, I don't know, coming out of uni, going to their first job, or going from school to first job, they expect to have to write a formal written request for flexible working. They imagine to go into a tech firm and be told, we don't all work here all week, we work a bit from home. If you prefer to work in the office, come in, but you don't have to. We just want you to perform at your best and do your best job, um, and be happy, enjoy working here. So it's, it's outdated to think that you can't— show me a job that can't be done flexibly. I think that's the way we should think of it.

So before I ask you the final question, what are the both of you excited about? What is going on in the trapeze world?

Excited about where it's going to go next. Yeah, as Jane said, we can come up with an idea and try it, and if it doesn't work, you know, time and a little bit of money is potentially lost. But otherwise, that's, that's my mantra to myself: try it, try trapeze. If it doesn't work, yes, it will be sad and disappointing, but you can find something else Try the Coach Club, see how it works, you know. So I'm excited to see how we can push ourselves as individuals and as a business. Um, we're obviously looking to hire, so that's really exciting. Yeah, we're looking to expand. We don't want to be vast, we want to keep our values. And to do that, I think you need to remain at kind of, we think, 10 or 15 people. Yeah, yeah, we want to be able to reflect what we're looking for for clients and candidates. So we live and breathe that.

I think the scale of the opportunity for Trapeze, whilst we are in quite specific sort of world, um, in terms of those clients that might want to hire an HR person flexibly. If they're only 30 employees large themselves, they're not going to need a team of 5 in HR. But, um, where this could go, how, how many great recruiters could come and join us over the coming years, and we could expand our reach, who knows, into other worlds outside HR and provide clever solutions to businesses that need a more creative mindset from their recruiter.

No, I think it's amazing what you both do, and I really like it. I know I do genuinely mean that. I think it's—

it's your job.

So the last question I always ask people is, if the both of you could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen, they'd take on your advice, it could be a word, a phrase, what comes to mind?

Be human.

Be human. I'll take that all day.

Pretty good. Oh damn, what am I going to say? Mine's care, but care doesn't seem like a strong enough word. But I think it's respect for what you do. These, these are people's careers. So, you know, all jobs— someone might not want a career, they might just want a really good job, and they've got something to give. So you have to think of both sides: the candidate who's been looking for a job for a while, who might not be right for everything, but feed that back, and the client who actually just wants a really, really good person to join their team who gets the culture and can do a job well.

Amazing, I like it. Well, Harriet, Jane, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you very much.