Joe Head -How being on performance management changed his career and how he carved out a new market

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Joe Head, um, who works for an agency called Mark James. Mark James are a boutique multidisciplined recruitment company, and Joe joined them 7 months ago as an associate director to help them build their technology arm from scratch. And previous to this, Joe worked for Austin Fraser for 6 years. So Joe, thank you for joining me.

Yeah, thank you very much for having me, appreciate it.

Excited to have you on. Obviously you came to, uh, the live event in November, didn't we? Didn't you?

Yes. Yeah, really good event. Yeah, really enjoyed it.

And, um, you don't have to say that, mate. Well, I did.

I'm not lying.

I know we, uh, engage there and communicated. So been looking forward to this. Also, we've been chatting before, and I think you're someone that's clearly really passionate about recruitment, which I think is always great to see and light, just soak up, which is really cool. So as you know, mate, where I always like to start on this podcast, how did Joe enter the world of recruitment?

Um, I'm probably gonna have the same answer as most people.

Okay.

Uh, which is fell into it. Really? Uh, yeah. So I literally—

did you go to uni?

No, didn't go to university. I worked, did my A-levels, uh, came out of school. I actually worked in Hugo Boss. Uh, yeah, just literally needed a job. I was what, fresh-faced 18-year-old.

Yeah.

Um, and then I had no idea that recruitment even existed, probably like a lot of people didn't really know what it was about, didn't know that there was even a professional business that you could go into in that space. Uh, I got a call from, uh, my old company Austin Fraser, um, as a trainee recruitment consultant. And yeah, it's kind of it really. I was like, to be fair, I actually thought I messed up the interview.

Really?

Uh, yeah, I went to the final stage interview in a pair of jeans Wow.

Uh, why is that? Because it's a tech recruitment?

Yeah, I sort of just like, oh, do you know what, I'm gonna give it a, give it a go. Why not? Why not be quirky? Yeah, I kind of got a lot of looks in the office.

Really?

Uh, when I walked through, what type of jeans were they?

What type of jeans? I'm assuming if you worked at Hugo Boss, they were like skinny or like tailored.

They weren't just like skinny fit black jeans. Yeah, right. To be fair, I wore like a nice blazer and a shirt on top of it, so it wasn't—

Yeah, so you look— yeah, you can look quite smart.

Yeah, I look quite smart, but I did actually think I was like, did they bring up an interview? Uh, they've actually brought up my feedback from my interview saying, look, um, look, we liked you, like, we thought you did well, but you know, why did you wear jeans? And I was like, oh yeah, I just got the vibe from the office that, yeah, I would need— was going to wear a pair of jeans.

Yeah, like, I mean, the internal recruiter though, come on.

Yeah, they must have said, yeah, surely. Do you know, I actually can't really remember. They must have done. They must have given me—

well, they should have.

Yeah, well done.

Yeah, invite back, just so you know, thinking about wearing jeans, don't.

Yeah, I know. I don't know what I got into, but I got the job.

Yeah. So yeah, do you think that if you was to go— if you were to interview Austin Fraser now and wear jeans and with that outfit, do you think you wouldn't get a second look? Because I've been to Austin Fraser offices.

Yeah, no, probably not. I'd probably be like, that's absolutely fine, that's cool, that's fine.

But I think that's what's changed a bit.

Yeah, but back in the day it was like, yeah, like you were meant to go suited and booted. Yeah, like suited and booted, tie, like that's kind of what was expected. But yeah, look, I'm here to break the norm, right? Um, cool.

So let's just frame up for everyone. So, uh, join Austin Fraser— that, um, if you don't know Austin Fraser, big global recruitment business. Um, I think they have a great brand, um, sort of online from what I can see. So you joined there and stayed there for 6 and a bit— 6 and a bit years. So real solid stint for your first recruitment job. And then obviously, yeah, 7 months ago you joined a smaller boutique agency, um, after leaving Austin Fraser. Yeah, so cool. So let's first like really dive into your journey at Austin Fraser. So just to frame it up, so as I said, I've been to Austin Fraser offices in Reading, really impressive. Obviously right now if you were to look at them online, you think they're huge, big, whatever. Like, so what was it like when you joined firstly?

Yeah, so we actually had a completely different office, still in Reading. We had just one, pretty much one floor.

How many people was it back then roughly?

Probably like maybe 50 or 60. So like compared to what it is now, like— Now we're talking what, like? We're talking 250, 300. 300 people.

Yeah, so like, yeah, so you went through that growth.

Yeah, like literally saw everything, saw them open up multiple different offices, went through that kind of whole journey with them, um, kind of watched them grow really as a business. And, uh, you know, and like, to be fair, like, I actually can't fault anything about the business. They taught me everything I knew, and I wouldn't be kind of in the situation where I am now without that, that experience.

So, okay, so again So just a final bit on that. So did you— so from what I saw on LinkedIn, you had the typical route of, so, training consultant, then consultant, then senior consultant, and then you left?

Yeah, pretty much. So I started out as a trainee. Um, uh, yeah, I mean, like everyone, trainee consultant, it was hard.

Yeah. What was the first year like then?

Uh, I didn't get— well, I didn't do my first deal for 10 months.

10 months?

Took me 10 months to do a deal.

Really?

Yeah, it took me 10 months. And you was—

as you were saying before, so was you in contract that whole time? Did you start— did you then flip to perm? Uh, so I started off as a contract consultant.

Yeah. Um, And it literally, like, for me, like, I was putting in the hours. Like, I was like working, like really putting in the work. Yeah, yeah, basically. Yeah, like putting in the work. Like, I remember being in the office one night to like 11 o'clock at night, really, like going through CVs. Because like my manager was like, if you don't have CVs for this job tomorrow, like, you're getting a bollocking, basically.

Really?

Um, so then you just—

sorry to butt in, but I did— you may or may not have listened to it, but I shared a podcast not too long ago with a guy called Lloyd Hume. And he spoken about this, and when he ended up having a really late night, he got a hotel. Really? Did you get a hotel?

Not quite, not quite. I remember not quite. I remember getting the bus home, um, like really late, really, really late. Like, mum was like— bear in mind, I'm like, what, like 18 at this point?

Yeah.

Like, mum was like, what are you doing, like, working this late? Not, not realizing, like, you gotta do.

So, okay, so how long did you do contract for?

Uh, so I did contract for, I think, 2 years.

Oh wow.

About 18 months, 2 years.

So you did it in the contract market for that first whole 10 months?

Yeah, for literally, yeah, for the whole 10 months. Um, and I didn't actually— so when, uh, when I first started Austin Fraser, the rule was you had to do 3 pull and places. So for anyone that obviously doesn't know, understand a pull and place, it's kind of like 3 self-generated deals. So not passed by anyone, getting the client yourself, agreeing the terms, and doing the deal yourself. So it actually took me— so it was really, really weird story. So um, I was actually— took 10 months to get promoted, and I was actually on performance management. I was literally on the brink of, uh, being fired pretty much because they were like, what's going on? Like, it doesn't— basically, I'm not even afraid to admit it, like, I probably was. And my, my manager was probably pulling his hair out. It's probably a reason why maybe he's balding, like, at the moment. Um, but yeah, like, I was on, um, performance management. Like, people were just like, you're not— why are you not getting it sort of thing. Like, what, what's the situation? Like, why are you not— like, typically people can get promoted pretty quickly. Like, they had like good training and stuff, and I just wasn't getting it. I literally just could not get my head around recruitment. I couldn't get it. Um, interestingly, when I got put on performance management, uh, I did 3 deals the month after in one—

really?

In 3 different places and got promoted.

Uh, so why do you think that is then? Let's talk about that. I think something that I always get messages about is this sort of early part of their career. And I think the fact that you didn't bill or make— do any deals for, for 10 months— let's definitely talk a bit about that.

Yeah.

So like, why do you think that is then?

Um, I think so, I kind of look on it in reflection now, and I think like, um, for a lot of people that were really young going into it, like, I had no— there's no consequences for me not doing a deal.

Okay.

So like I was living at home, my mum and sister, like I was getting paid like okay money on a salary for someone that's like, you know, yeah, has no real, no bills or anything. Like I didn't have that kind of like the con— there was no consequence for me not doing well. So, um, you know, loads of people in recruitment have like their why and their reason for like wanting to do well, whether that be, you know, family, you know, house, like that kind of stuff. When you're as young as like I was, like you don't have those things.

It's like, but you was working hard. Why was you working so hard then?

I think for me I was just a bit of like self-pride. Like really, you didn't— I didn't want to get I, I kind of bought into the culture and how much I enjoyed that place. I didn't want to be that guy that got fired, right?

Yeah.

And that failed. And I think like actually being put on performance management, and I had this conversation with my old manager that actually kind of gives you a— there's a, there's a consequence of you if you don't do well. Yeah. You're going to get fired.

Yeah.

And that's kind of what I think kind of spurred me on. And I was like, oh shit, there's a consequence. I better like—

yeah, fair enough.

I better do something about this.

Yeah. Um, so what, what made you— what made you— what do you think, looking back now, what do you think made you continue in those first time, why didn't you quit yourself?

Um, I think I just saw— for me, like, I just had— like, I could see other people doing well. Like, I was with, like, really— like, I had a really, really, like, successful manager, people around me doing quite well, and I was like, I want some of that. Like, I'd kind of immediately got on with a lot of the people there, and I didn't want to lose that. Kind of like, I didn't want to lose that. Like, you know, even now I'm friends with, like, a lot of people that are still there that I've known my whole career.

Yeah.

And I think, like, for me, I didn't want to kind of walk away from that, and I didn't want to quit. I did not want to give up. I was like, I'm going to keep doing this, I'm going to keep doing it.

Yeah. Um, so that was a big factor.

Yeah, massively. Like, I think massively. Like, there was that, like, just, I just didn't want to fail.

What was they saying to you?

Uh, lots of things. Uh, probably some things I can't repeat on the, uh, on this podcast.

Well, I mean, like, you're on your way out, mate.

Yeah, pretty much. They were like, look, like, every review— I was having like daily reviews, really. So like, look, like KPIs, like why are they not like where they are, like properly, like, you know, like going in on me for a lot of things. And like whether that be like how many managers you add in, how many leads you're getting, like what's going on kind of thing. Um, yeah, and I think literally going on that performance management, probably the best thing that's ever happened to me, because I don't think I would have gone back into recruitment if I had been really fired. Um, but yeah, like I think that it was that kind of consequence, and I think like having a reason why, like you do the things you do, and like my why, as bad as it sounds at the time, but my why for smashing work at that time in that kind of one month when I got promoted was because I didn't want to get fired. Yeah, that was kind of it. But a lot of people have different whys of like, yeah, you know, whether you've got kids, family.

And that period, mate, just out of interest, did you ask for help?

Uh, probably, but I think a lot of what I was cut— like, we had a training program and it was like, like, not like now, it's a really, really good training program now. Back in the day, it was like 6 weeks sat in a room. Yeah, you learned some stuff.

Classroom. Yeah, yeah, like classroom.

And I think for a lot of people, that doesn't necessarily work that well. Like, for me, I couldn't learn like that.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, there was probably at times when I was like, I'd really, really need some help. But then other times you would just like— I think you would just think that— and this is what, like, I guess as I've got older in my recruitment career, like, you learn to work smarter and not harder.

Yeah.

Like, I could put all the hours in in the day but didn't get anything out of it. I didn't do the right things, didn't get the things I needed to be successful. It's just like, oh yeah, I've added 20 managers in one day I didn't ever contact any of them.

So, you know, yeah, I was just interested because what's come up a lot recently is— because it was just interesting that you're saying that people around you obviously giving you a bit of banter, and you obviously had to do some internal selling that, look, this is something I want to do, I'm really grafting even though my KPIs might not be quite there. So you also have to do some internal selling to keep your job, clearly. Yeah, I'm just interested because I think what a lot of people underestimate, and I definitely didn't utilize this because when you are surrounded by people that are doing well and these types of things, it can be quite daunting or intimidating. You can be quite intimidated by the top biller, or intimidated. So I think what's come up a lot, which is why I asked that question, is, um, don't underestimate how many— how people are willing to help. So just— so clearly, from what you said, I think I'm making the assumption that you probably didn't ask for that much help.

No, no way. But do you know what's really interesting? I think that's kind of like— and again, I, I don't know because I've only worked for, what, 2 recruitment companies now— but I think like when you're like in that situation, I don't— I think it can be quite daunting and you can be quite sort of like put off by asking someone for help that's doing really well. But I think that kind of has slowly changed, like massively in the— yeah, yeah, in the industry as a whole. That is kind of the whole mindset of recruitment now. And, um, even at the event, you know, like people were saying, it's now— it sounds weird to say, but it's now considered a bit more of a professional business to kind of go into. So I think when you're young and you're like, you're so, you know, you just think that, oh yeah, I'm just gonna do all this hard work and it's just gonna happen. Like, actually looking back, I probably would have asked for help.

To round that off then, like, knowing what you know now, like, what, what would you have done differently to ensure that it didn't take 10 months for you to do it, do a pull in place?

Listen to my manager, bro, probably more.

Really? Did you sort of feel like you— did you have that sort of mentality? Obviously you was young though, right?

Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, like, I think, like, um, I guess, like, had I known— let's say, you know, I knew everything I knew now about recruitment— I think had I just done the basics of what recruitment is and had I just stuck to that daily and not got so kind of worried and panicky and work until like, you know, late nights at like, like I say, like 11, 11:30 at night. Had I actually just taken the whole like, you know, work smarter not harder, I probably would have been— yeah, I got promoted a lot, but long before that. But yeah, but actually, to be fair, I'm pretty grateful for that kind of journey. Yeah, I'm really grateful for actually failing and really not doing so well and then kind of actually like learning from that massively.

Yeah, okay. Um, so then did your first couple of deals after the performance management, being put on performance management? Okay, cool. So year one then, what you ended up with, obviously in the contract world, do you end up having a few runners then?

Yeah, I think I got to— so I went, yeah, because I got promoted to a recruitment consultant.

Yeah.

Um, then I ended up getting to about, uh, I think I've only about £3,000 weekly GP, so really like nothing really. Like considering like some of the people that were there.

Yeah, I think I did like 80,000, like, yeah, like, like what, in that first year?

Uh, no, I think that was kind of a year from getting promoted, like, so like year 2 you ended up— yeah, I think it was about like 80,000, like something like that. Um, and then I, I couldn't— I don't know, for me the kind of journey that I went on was like I could not on the contract market get, uh, like over 3 grand. I think it was like— I even think—

why do you struggle so much? Because I was a plumber, so yeah.

Do you know what?

I'm—

I don't— I couldn't put my— I guess I couldn't put my finger on it necessarily, like the main reasons, but I think like maybe the way I am as like an individual, like I'm like— there were a lot of contract recruiters that are really good, that are very, very like salesy, like back in the day were like on it.

Bosch.

But Bosch, straight on it, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Like they knew candidates, they worked core market, they were like doing deals constantly. And I was kind of like got to a point where like I always had like £3,000, but I had like £1,500 to have the finishes in like a month. So I was like, oh, shit, this is about to go bad. So, um, but luckily, like, really interestingly, like, I got, uh, switched over to perm.

Why did you ask for that?

Uh, kind of asked for it, but also it was an opportunity that came up. Like, my manager was like, there's actually could be some really good— there's some good things that you're doing as a person. Look, you know, you build a lot of rapport with people, or like, on, you know, permanent. Yeah, a bit more suited for perm. Like, very, very, like, personable and you can build relationships with people, which in perm is— you actually need that quite a lot, especially when you're ultimately making like life-changing decisions for people.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, so yeah, I switched over to perm, kind of business decision slash kind of I wanted to keep my job. Um, so yeah, so I, I switched over to perm, and actually interestingly, like my first month on perm, uh, I did like 20-odd grand worth of business.

Really?

Like my first month, not like that. I just bailed the deal, about 20 grand. So I was like, okay, this is probably going to be my route from now on.

Yeah. So then ever since then you've done perm, which is what, like 4 and a bit years now?

Yeah, literally, yeah, ever since then, been a perm recruiter, um, everything. But then, like, I think actually, like, the contract mentality that I've got, like, has really helped me as well, because having that mentality of, like, you know, as a contractor, so when you get a contract job on, you need to know CVs, like, straight away.

Like, so the urgency—

the urgency is, like, really helped me in the perm kind of side of things. Like, when we're like selling to a, like, candidate or a client, like there's like an element, there's always that urgency to get stuff done quicker. And like people always say, oh, perm takes a lot longer, but like it doesn't have to if you can make it. Like, yeah, actually you can make things turn around quite quickly.

Yeah, or you can just, you can apply that same urgency to everything that's involved in the perm recruitment cycle.

Literally everything, you can just apply that same urgency and the same mentality of like, actually, if a perm job comes up, I still know the 3 best guys to go to. Like, I still know those candidates.

So you'll see, yeah, so you're grateful that that ended up being your route because it's obviously equipped you with—

Yeah, yeah, massively. And that's what like always was kind of said to me was actually that urgency that you've got to get stuff done. And you know, the fact that I had that kind of mentality that when we had a perm job, I already knew 3 good candidates because of— that's what you needed to do on the contract side. The contract days, you like had to know the candidates, otherwise another agency would fill the job. Yeah. So I think that's really like massively helped me kind of step my perm game up.

So it's the biggest learning then in those first 2 years, mate, what we're saying, because clearly you struggled.

Yeah, massively.

Um, because there'll be people, there'll be contract recruiters listening that might be going through that right now.

Yeah, I think like the biggest kind of learn for me was, uh, like again, and I still do this today, right, is sticking to the basics of what recruitment is. Recruitment is not hard, like it is not necessarily a hard thing to do, but you people can make it really, really difficult because they get kind of really worked up.

I mean, it's interesting to say that. Sorry to butt in, but I had, um, recorded an episode with a guy called Nick Carmen, and he hates people saying that recruitment's not hard to do.

Really?

Just because— but I know I get the context of what you're saying. Obviously, context is important, that— but all he means by that is he just finds that as— because he has dedicated over a decade of his life to being the best recruiter he can be.

Yeah.

So for someone to sort of just discount what he does as easy to do, he doesn't like that. But I get what you're saying, as in like getting back to the basics and not overcomplicating.

Yeah, like the more like it's not— okay, yeah, recruitment it's not an easy job to do, but like the fundamentals of what you're— yeah, what, like, if you actually take it back to its bare bones of what recruitment is, we talk to candidates, we find those good candidates for jobs.

Yeah.

And actually, like, people can really overcomplicate that quite a lot. And I think if you, um, like, talking to like your manager or someone, I think it's important to not overcomplicate that. Like, if you're— okay, fair enough, if you haven't got any jobs on, okay, what's the first thing you do? Go and talk to some candidates. Like, learn. And I think even if you're brand new to recruitment, the first thing you do is just talk to people. Get to understand.

You would have got back to basics.

Yeah, definitely.

What did you— what was you overcomplicating then?

I think I was probably just overcomplicating, um, a lot of the times, especially in technology recruitment. You can kind of overcomplicate a lot of what the job actually is in terms of like, you know, you take a really good job spec and I think because you want to find the perfect candidate for the job, and especially in contract recruitment, that's not, you know, contract recruitment is right, 3, 4 good, really good contract CVs send them to the client. I think for me, I was kind of like, oh no, I'm not too sure if this person's any good. I mean, I had it at times where I'll be like— I remember one deal, like, I can't remember exactly when, but it was like you'd speak to the guy, you go, nah, he's not quite right for the job, and then he goes and gets the job. Okay, that kind of like—

that's what you get better at.

Yeah, and that's what you get better at, right? And I think so. If I was to like—

okay, that makes sense.

Yeah, so I think if you would like— don't kind of overcomplicate. Like, if you're brand new to contract recruitment, don't overcomplicate. If you take a good job spec from someone, don't like think, ah, this guy's not right because he hasn't got that, ask your manager.

I think, I think what I learned as a permanent recruiter, which you get better at, is never— don't, don't ever assume.

Yeah, massively.

That's what you're talking about there, is like, you're right. That's like that. Yeah, it's so true. And I think that, that's— I love the way that you just articulate that. I think that's really true. I think a lot of people can benefit from that, and I think you're quite prone to that early on. Yeah, I remember, I remember especially early on when you're, you're not as confident as you would be 2 years down the line, 3 years down the line, getting on the phone being proactive. Like, for me, I always remember when, like, I wasn't as confident on the phone, like, look at CVs and, like, I, I— because I want— because you're just wired to pick the easiest option in your life, right?

Yeah.

I was looking for reasons not to call that person.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

And it's just human.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

And then I remember, yeah, sitting there, like, when you're brand new to recruitment, sitting there, and by the time you've worried about what you're going to say, yeah, I might not even pick phone. Like, so you're there, you're there like worrying about it, like, oh my God, what's this guy gonna think? Like, and it even things like, things like, oh, asking for someone to go, oh, by the way, who did you work for in your last job? People are so like, oh my God, I can't ask that, I can't ask that. But actually, that you don't know that that guy might just turn around and go, oh, by the way, it was this guy, he's looking for someone.

So, so great advice. Don't overcomplicate it. Don't, don't assume. And if you do assume and someone gets a job that you spoke to them about, not for you, yeah, don't make that mistake again. That's That's the key thing which we'll get on to around resilience, right, is it's about learning from the mistakes and then don't do them again.

Yeah, exactly.

So, um, so I think that— yeah, I love that you said that, and that's great, great advice. Um, so transitioned into a permanent recruiter, so did you stay in the same similar market or did you change market or—

uh, yeah, so I actually stayed in the completely same market, which was actually quite good, um, because I'd already learned all the technologies and, um, yeah, I kind of, kind of knew already that, that market and how to kind of work it.

Yeah, that helps, right?

Yeah, massively.

So first year as a perm recruiter then, so that would have been your third year. Yeah, as a recruiter. How was that? And so you did 20 or so grand in the first month?

Uh, yeah, I did 20 grand in the first month. Um, and then I think I actually ended up— I did, I did actually like not too bad considering I kind of changed to perm. I think I ended up doing about 150 or just—

first year, uh, much better than 3 grand a week, mate.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, tell me about it. So yeah, so I kind of, yeah, like got to that level. I just started enjoying my work like more, like massively. Like I started to kind of, it's weird, like it's such an old school saying, but the penny dropped and it kind of did. Like the penny drops when you're doing it and then suddenly like you learn from your mistakes of like what I wasn't doing before. And then I was like asking people and then I started to get, you know, everyone, like when you start doing deals, you get more confidence. Yeah. You get that kind of aura of confidence to kind of, kind of just like get my career like back on track sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah. And so just, just to help me out, so from that point, did you then just stay as a biller or did you manage people?

Uh, so that point I just stayed as a biller. So I, um, yeah, went, went through like, wanted to get my senior consultant. Like, that was like a really big thing for me.

Um, what was that? How was that met? How did you get a senior?

Uh, so we had to do, uh, so it's 100 and, uh, 20 grand's worth of start— no, 160 grand's worth of starters in a 6-month period. So you had to have everyone start, it didn't matter when they started as long as it was in a 6-month period.

Yeah.

Um, and then you'd be promoted.

So, uh, that was your next, like, real goal?

Yeah, that was my next real goal. And actually, I think the one thing for me that I guess kind of really helped me get there, and something I wanted to say, was kind of having a bit of self-worth. And that was something that my mindset really changed. Like, in my— like, when I started doing perm recruitment and I you know, I had like an okay year. And then like I started kind of valuing a lot more about what I was doing because I could see like how much work I was putting in. And I was like saying— I was like start telling clients, I was like, this is how much work I put in, like. And then I was increasing my percentages, and then I was getting like more like exclusivity on jobs, or, you know, upgrading those jobs of interview slots. And I think like for me, that was the biggest thing I changed, like in my mindset, was just valuing my work.

How did you change that? Um, like, what, did anything happen, or like, how, how did you change it?

I think it just sort of became like, I think there probably was an element of like the confidence of like doing a few deals and kind of going along, and then I was just like, do you know what, I'm, I'm working so hard, but I'm getting clients that are maybe like, you know, like messing me about or like not doing the right things for me. And I'm like, actually, why are they not doing the right things for me? I'm doing all this hard work.

Yeah.

So I started like telling clients of like how hard I was working, and I started saying to clients, look, but if you don't want that kind of service, then let's not kind of like— we don't want to work with you. And I think that comes down like that kind of self— like, value what you do as an individual. Like, as recruiters, we work hard. Like, we work hard, we put the hours in.

Yeah.

But a lot of people don't tell their clients that.

Yeah, I think so. Totally.

I don't— and I've never understood that. And I've like, tell your clients how hard you work so they get an insight into your job.

Yeah.

Like, they've got probably no problem telling you how busy their day is or how hard they're working or the hours they're putting in. Tell it to them as well.

No, I think that's such a great insight. I think there's two things in there, is as you said, I think that it comes with actually the realization of helping a lot of people, working with businesses and making placements and all that, and actually recognizing how much of an impact you have on their business and how valuable it is what you're doing. So yeah, so I think there's two things in there. One, yeah, like when you really realize like how like really believe in— so I think for me, what changed for me when I was in recruitment, so I, I did two and a half years and I would say 18 months in, I sort of had that moment.

Yeah.

And when you like really believe that when you're on the phone to that candidate or client, that they are— you are the best person that they should be speaking to, that's when shit changes. Yeah. And you like truly believe that, and because that just comes out of everything that you communicate, stuff like that. So that's great. And then the other thing, actually, you're totally right, is educating your clients and candidates on what you do on a daily basis, because you'd be surprised that But again, people assume that these people know what you're doing, how you work. Yeah, it's really interesting because one of the, um, sort of early videos that I made when I was in recruitment, it's like the third video, it was all about, um, just educating people what we do. So the video is pretty much like, so just let you all know that when we do take on a job, we don't post a job on Reed and then put our feet up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, literally. So yeah, but that is like, that is lots of people, you'd be so surprised. Even in, even now, people that are like hiring managers or people that are like, even like some like hate HR people are probably just like, oh, you just put a job advert up and you hope that someone applies for it. Well, actually, if you work in a really, really kind of niche technology market, or a niche market, or any market for that matter, we're out there. We're going to like communities, meetups, and meeting people. We are talking to like, like maybe 10, 15, 20 people a day to get our networks up. And I think like a lot of people just don't realize how much time you put in. Like, what happens if we haven't— well, when we as recruiters don't have any jobs on we're still talking to candidates, we're still there building that network so that when the clients, like whoever we're talking to, need their job filled, we've got people straight away. And I think people do— like, a lot of people just think we pluck candidates from the air and yeah, we're just out there, yeah, let's do those candidates, let's make some money.

So how, how did, um, how did you communicating that and getting better at that help, help you? Like, how much of an impact did it have then? So you mentioned around fees and stuff like that.

Yeah, massively. Like, it just, it It took— I'd say like, if you're— when you do it, you kind of like— I think there is an element of being really brave. Like, you have to be brave.

What sort of things did you say then?

So articulate, like what's a client?

Yeah, so like, what did you start to— because I'm sure you end up just getting a bit of a spill, don't you? So like, what did you end up—

you would just kind of say— you would basically walk through clients through the steps of like what you do on a daily basis. And like, there's going to be quite a few people listening that might have good pitches like this, or people that maybe don't have pitches. But for me, I was always like, right, like, look, these are the reasons why I am the best recruiter. I've recruited in this market. I've only ever done this technology. Like, I've only ever worked in this one market. I talk to people day in, day out. I recruit specifically in London, and I work with clients that, like, that basically have the same kind of setup as you guys, the same technology. They're competitors of yours, and I know them, and I can go and, like, either headhunt people for you, um, or I can go and do, like, you know, really, really good kind of acquisition kind of projects for you. And just telling me when, like, the thing around like meetups and communities, and, you know, we— I did that quite a bit, and going to meet people and just having a bit more of like, uh, that real confidence to say exactly what you do. And there are some, like, like I say, we said it, like, there's people out there who have no clue what you do in recruitment. They just think that you find people and that's it.

Yeah. And actually that helps you raise your fees.

Yeah, because you then start negotiating a lot more, and then like like, you know, even if you're like, like, say like 1, say 1% on every deal you've done over the course of the year, it makes a huge difference, like massive, massive difference to your billings. Um, and I think like, as much— and walk away from business that don't want to work with you. If they're like, oh, we only work at 15% and we work with 6 agencies, just say, look, cool, really sorry, I don't want to give you the service I currently provide because I don't give a 15% service, I give a 25% service.

There's a lot of power Yeah, there's a lot of power in that.

And people are actually like, sometimes people are like, oh, actually, I kind of want to know what that 25% service is like. I don't want to like, what, you know, what am I not getting from it? So I think, yeah, I think it's really important to like just be confident. I know that takes time, that it's always going to take time. It's really like, I applaud anyone that like is new to recruitment that can walk away from business. And I think that's a really brave thing to do because when you're new, all you want is jobs on. Actually, if you're like, they're the first, you know, you're a new recruiter and you're going, do you know what, I'm going to really have some self-worth and value myself. I don't want to work that 15%.

No, I think that's great, mate. So I think, I think, yeah, so I think if you, if you're like, if you really start believing in the value and service that you bring to your clients' candidates, um, you really start articulating, educating more, like over, over-communicating what you actually do on a daily basis, how hard you work. Yeah, like, yeah, that will go a long way massively.

Yeah, 100%. Like, just start explaining, like, let's start telling, like, even across the industry and recruitment, let's start telling people what we do and why we work as hard as we do. Yeah, it's not just because we're not, like you say, we ain't got our feet up and just hoping that £20 grand deals come through the door. Like, we actually work for it.

Um, okay, cool. So, um, let's just talk a bit about— so obviously Permanent Recruiters did about £150K in your first year. So obviously clearly you might really motivate to get that senior title, which involved £120K, £130K of new business in 6 months.

Yeah.

So how did you do performance-wise, like billings-wise, up until the point you left then?

And then break that down a bit. So I think the, uh, I think the last year I did, like, I was nowhere near like an amazing recruiter. Like, I worked with some people that were like really, really good, good perm recruiters that were doing like 500, 600. I think I got just under 300.

What was your best year?

Uh, yeah, I think it was like 280.

Yeah, that's good, mate.

So like, yeah, like, like, that's what I like. I think like—

so when did— just to help me out, because let's break this down— when did you get to— when was the year that you hit?

Uh, so Uh, it was actually last 2000— I left Austin Fraser, what, uh, 2 years?

Yeah, I'm sure. So back end of last year, 2019, pretty much.

Yeah.

So your last year at Austin Fraser was pretty much my biggest year. Yeah.

Which is, which is, I guess, kind of like, like interesting in a sense, because people be like, oh, well, why did you leave? Why did you leave?

Um, we'll, we'll go into that, but I guess what, what I'd love to just, um, for you to share and just articulate and talk a bit about, and I'm sure or some of it is what we were just talking about. But again, real common thing that I get is, Hishem, for the last 3 months, uh, 3 years, I've hit 150K, 180K. Like, how the fuck do I break this 200K mark? Or obviously you came close hitting the 300K mark.

Yeah.

So I think there's an interesting factor that we were talking about before we started this, is one, you were surrounded by people that were doing bigger than numbers in any way. Yeah, that clearly has an impact, right? So I guess, yeah, what, what's your sort of perspective and thoughts on how you managed to sort of level up your billings and continue to increase those.

So I think definitely, like, we just touched on it, like, the self-worth of your business was like— it's so important. And that really helped me. Um, but again, like we mentioned earlier, like, going back to the basics of what recruitment is, like, no matter how good you kind of like are in it, even if you're like an amazing biller, like, just if you still do the basics of like, okay, well, we still— you still need to do like BD, and you need to like add new contacts and new managers into the system and you still need to kind of take it back, like, to what is, is a successful, like, method of, like— and obviously there'll be, like, different recruitment companies out there. Like, AF had their own kind of, I guess, kind of success measures in terms of, like, the KPIs and the figures. Um, but I think you kind of have to still do KPIs.

Like, what were they?

Uh, so I think it was 10— so we— it was called 10-5-2. Um, so was that 10, uh, 10 interviews, uh, 5, uh, 5 jobs, uh, to— I can't remember it now, uh, to something.

Okay, it was like just a week.

Yes, it was like a weekly basis of like what your KPIs would be. Um, and I'd say to anyone that like— because one thing I see in recruitment a lot is like, oh, we're not KPI driven, we're not KPI driven. But I'm like, kind of like, I don't necessarily understand that quite fully because actually KPIs are the fundamentals of most sales jobs.

Yeah, you need to understand what you need to do on a daily basis to get you to, yeah, point A or point B.

Like, exactly. So like, and I think like just doing the KPIs, and don't be afraid to do them. I don't think people should be afraid to talk about KPIs. I know like there's loads of companies out there, we're not KPI driven, we're not. And it's like, well, you kind of have to be, like, in sales. People shouldn't be afraid or be scared to kind of mention about KPIs and doing, again, like the basics of recruitment.

Just a quick one on that. Let's definitely stay on this, have a few things. So just one of the questions that I got from someone that was on this, actually I wrote down on here, was, um, so they said one thing I'll be interested in would be maybe a bit of chat specifically around big recruitment firms, which she was in, and how an overemphasis on KPIs can sometimes prove counterintuitive. It's some— it's something I found problematic in my short, um, in my short time in a bigger firm, whereby I actively had to stop chasing leads because I had only done 45 minutes business development. You know what I mean? So I get it. So there's pros and cons. There's not like but like, what are your thoughts on that? Like, because you work for a bigger firm, right?

Yeah, I think, um, I think, yeah, massively KPIs can be detrimental, like, to business. Like, absolutely no doubt. If you've got a manager that's breathing down your neck and he's like, you haven't done your 10, mate, I've done your 5— yeah, you're massively— that is going to be an effect on, like, your workload. Also, like, mentally, that's going to really affect you, and you're, you're going to be, like, getting down about it, like, if you haven't done it. Um, I think there's, like, as a as a leader and as a manager in any business, you have to be really kind of like careful in the way you talk about it. But it has to be something you have to talk about because most— every single company, like recruitment company, sales company, they're results-driven. Um, you— we don't, you know, unless you're kind of lucky, you don't have like— we don't— most businesses don't have a million different clients that are just coming to them with jobs like non-stop, right? Um, so I think if you do it in a way that is— which is kind of— it's, it's inspiring to someone, they can see the benefit of why they're doing it. Yeah, then they're gonna do it. So something that like I've tried— I'm trying to do at the moment is actually be a bit more like, okay, well, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna show you how to do it and how— what works well and why it works well. I'm not just telling you to do it. Yeah, because then you're not actually seeing the result. Yeah. So I think if you're like actually on that journey with someone, especially if they're new. As a leader, as a leader or as a manager, you should be kind of demonstrating how it's done. Yeah. And I think that—

and I, and, and so I guess if you're— so if you're listening right now and you're like, fucking, I'm a manager, keeps banging on me about getting 10, doing 10 business, again, speaking to 10 decision makers before 10 o'clock or whatever, and you're getting bogged down by it, like, I think it's fair to say then you need to communicate internally.

Yeah.

Like, one, one, ask yourself a question: do you know why you've got to do that?

Yeah, do you know?

Because that's what you're saying there. Yeah, you actually see the value in why they've set these KPIs or indicators as to— so one, take a step back from it instead of just pointing the finger and moaning at your manager, getting down, getting you down. Like, why? Do you know why? Why they've told you to do this? And then two, if you think it is a bit too much or unrealistic or it's affecting other things where you're making poor decisions, like 45 minutes business development or whatever, that's, that's not a good thing. Yeah. Community needs to communicate internally.

Yeah, I mean, definitely. Like, most people— the reason people don't do things is if they don't see value in it. Yeah, I think like there has to be like, you know, what— why, why is that person— why does that person need to add 10 managers or do more business development per day? And I think like if you're educated around it, and I think that's one of the biggest things, like coming new to recruitment, I think if you've got a really, really good kind of someone that's like educating you around kind of the principles of what recruitment is and how we do it and the kind of fundamentals of what make up recruitment. Yeah, I think then you're going to learn a lot more. I think it's— there's obviously certain businesses maybe out there that are like, you know, their managers just like, right, do this, and if you don't do this, well, you're gonna—

yeah, exactly.

So actually, that's a rework because that person isn't going to know a clue what any of that really means. So they— I think they just need to kind of like— you need to be able to demonstrate that person the benefit in doing it. And that might take someone just to go like get on the phone and talk to a candidate or talk to a manager and show them a little bit of how it's done.

Yeah, nice.

And give them that kind of like like, do you know what, this guy's actually like, this guy's inspiring me, I see value in doing it, I want to be like that person.

Nice. So, um, what I'd like to talk to you a bit about, because I think this is also part of what you're indicating to— so a real common thing that a lot of people ask me about, well, as well, is sort of what your day looks like and management, time management, stuff like that. So I think obviously when I ask you around getting your billings to those sorts of figures from 150K and continuing to improve those, and you was talking about getting back, making sure you're doing the basics right, you're hitting, you know what you need to do to said, um, the KPIs piece stuff. So I guess what I'd like to think about and share is what, how, what was different in your day, if it was, that you, what that you had in your day, or how you structured your day when you was billing $150K compared to $280K. Because I'm sure there's some non-negotiables that you sort of start to evolve or have. Like, what does that look like?

Yeah, so I think like, um, in terms of day structure, I think like I was like, to anyone like you've got to be really, really kind of like rigid with it. Like, you've got to stick to it because so many times— I mean, I've done it, I'm sure like you— yeah, yeah, people do it where they say, I'm gonna do this, and then they don't. And then it's like, oh, why didn't you do that? Oh, I had some other things to do. And I think it's like just finding like when you structure your day right, go to the— go to the top of the, the list and go, right, what's the most important thing? Um, look at like— always like look at my jobs. It's like, all right, in the morning, let's have a look, let's see what jobs are working.

Let's break down your day then because I'm sure this is what got better compared to— yeah, early on.

Break down your day and be really kind of like— and stick to it as well and actually do it. Like, if you're gonna write— if you're gonna say, right, I know that I need to book in 5 interviews today, or I need to find 5 candidates to send to that job because the clients, you know, really need CVs, then kind of like hold yourself accountable for it.

Yeah.

And if you haven't done it by the time the day is shut, like, then stay and do it. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like, yeah, it's not like we're not saying to people like, oh, work, you know, the incredible hours. But if you said to yourself, right, I really, really need to do this today, I need to get this done, yeah, because I know this is going to help me do a deal, then kind of hold yourself accountable, be like, I'm actually gonna get this done. Um, so for me, like, I always now, like, my day is kind of structured like, right, take a look at the jobs we got on, um, let's understand our, like, who our best clients are, who's coming back to us on that CV feedback.

Yeah, so prioritizing relationships there. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, like, massively, like, prioritize your, like, relationships over people that aren't giving you that kind of service. Again, that comes down to kind of value.

So that's the first thing that you're doing.

Yeah. So like looking at, looking at the jobs going, right, these are the kind of best ones. I'm going to kind of work on these. If you haven't talked to that client in a while or, you know, you've not heard back from them, give them a call. There's nothing wrong with— I like often see it like, well, I don't want to call the clients, I don't want to annoy them. Or, you know, I only sent CVs yesterday. It's like, well, actually they've asked you to send CVs and all you, all you're doing is kind of chasing you know, feedback because that candidate has chased you, or that candidate wants to know if he's successful for the job. So I think like if you do it again in like a real constructive way, in a way in which that doesn't annoy the client, it's fine to call those people.

Yeah.

So we're always like trying to like, at the moment, like having a big push on, you know, the clients we have got is kind of nurturing them a little bit.

Yeah.

And like actually like let's see where we can, you know, let's ask for some feedback. Like how are we doing? Like how are we performing against your other agencies? How are 'How are you finding working with us?' Because I think feedback's like really, really important. So I know we kind of take a bit of a tangent on the day plan, but that makes sense.

So, so, so what it sounds like then is what you got better at is, um, recognizing and understanding like what were your hot jobs or the jobs that you should be spending time on, and that— and then would that fuel the rest of your day then?

Like, yeah, so you would kind of like fuel the rest of your day. Of course there's always going to be things like— so we always do things like, you know, chasing the leads down, like, oh, like, oh, well, you know, who's, who's interviewing where, who's hiring at the moment, and let's kind of have those days. But, um, and you'd always kind of dedicate some time to those really kind of hot, the hot stuff basically that's like out there, like, oh, they're recruiting, or I heard that they're recruiting yesterday. Yeah, like yesterday evening I spoke to someone and heard they were recruiting, so I want to go straight away and try and, yeah, find that and try and hunt that down.

Um, so did you, do you block out time in your diary or not?

Uh, yeah, yeah. So we actually, so at the moment we do like sales days, um, so that everyone's kind of in it together.

Um, so everyone's involved in those.

So every Wednesday, like, we kind of have a bit of a sales push because it's kind of bringing everyone as a team together doing it. And I think it creates a really good buzz in the office. I think it's quite—

so you're doing BD all day?

Yeah, literally just like— is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, of course there are like exceptions where, like, oh, you know, if you've got stuff to sort out, yeah, of course. But we're, we're sort of like trying to do something at the moment where it's just like bringing everyone together. Let's have a bit of a push together to get this done. Okay. Of course, there's going to be times when you need to do BD on other days. And that's more of like a self-awareness thing. It's like if you get to like a Thursday and you're like, I haven't done any BD calls, maybe, you know, ask your manager like, where can I bring the list up? What can I do? Like, what can I do differently? Or I need some help kind of thinking of the people to call. Yeah.

Okay.

But yeah, definitely like the whole thing about kind of like prioritising your workload about what's most important. So like if you haven't got any jobs, cool, where are those jobs going to come from? Yeah, okay. And just having like a little sit down, a little plan of action for the day, like, right, okay, I haven't got any jobs. I know that, oh, those people are recruiting. I'm going to really, really try and get those jobs on. Yeah, the next best thing after, if they can't get a job on, is try and get a meeting. Yeah, it's just like, like breaking it down little by little to kind of— and don't like— we always, I always say celebrate the small wins. Okay, like there's no— if you didn't get a job on but you got a meeting, that's amazing. Like, don't, don't kind of beat yourself up because you didn't get the job on, but you've got a meeting with a new client. Like, celebrate that. Like, yeah, you know what I mean? Still, that's amazing work anyway.

Yeah, I know, you're right. I really like that. So I guess just to run that off, mate, I'm looking at this question that someone sent me. It's pretty much like, um, it's pretty much what I sort of asked you. So just to run it off is like Um, so this person said, I'd like to always hear the daily routines of a recruiter in their first year versus their year 4 or 5 plus. What daily must-do has changed? It's like, just to round that off, what would you say the sort of daily must-do that's changed that when you was year, year one in your perm recruitment career?

I think year one was like, um, what changed a lot for me, like, in year one was like massively BD focused, okay, and being really kind of like, right, that was, that was kind of the goal. Be really focused on that and set yourself kind of really simple targets to kind of hit of like BD.

Yeah.

And trying to, you know, get in front of those clients. And then I think as you kind of go on in your career, things slowly, slightly change because you're— you've got more clients, which you kind of like as you kind of get older in your career, you get— you have those clients, you have those jobs to work. And I think again, that comes down to like the, I guess, the routine. And what I do now is be kind of really specific with those jobs and nurture those relationships because too many times in recruitment And, you know, I'm sure there's other people out there that were like, you could have had a really good relationship.

Yeah.

And for whatever reason, it was neglected, it wasn't worked out, you never got—

you can always be thinking about a new client, new client, new client.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I think it's really important to like, yeah, definitely in, in like year one, if you're like brand new to recruitment, structure your day. Like, talk to your manager about like what's going to work for you. And that could be different things for different markets. Like, that could different like areas to work on, but definitely just kind of structure it like BD every day. Make sure that you're like immersing yourself in the market. Make sure you're talking to enough candidates every day as well. Yeah, I think it's really important when you're brand new to recruitment, you have no idea what the market's like. Yeah, like definitely like just talk to people like, and don't be afraid that you're maybe like not as technical as they are. Like the person on the end of the phone knows you're not technical. Yeah, you're talking to like an it recruitment. Yeah, yeah, you know, any recruitment really. Really, so.

No, I think, okay, cool. And then I think a really key part of that, which I've definitely been victim of and have done is like, I think you said, you started out by saying like, make sure you stick to it. I think that that's really important is like, if you do decide going into next week that this is how you're going to structure your week or this is what we're going to focus on a daily basis, then like give yourself a sort of, right, I'm going to do this for 4 weeks and see sort of what the returns are and actually like really commit to it for a little bit. Rather than doing it for a day and going, oh, that was shit, or whatever.

Yeah, if you didn't get the results on like the first day, like, okay, cool, but don't let that get yourself down for the rest of the week. Yeah, yeah, definitely stick to it. And I think like there's a lot of time, and I've been guilty of it, you say you're going to do it but then you don't. And it's just like being like, like being accountable for it and holding yourself accountable and knowing that it's— I know it sounds kind of harsh, but knowing that if you don't do it, it's no one else's fault.

Yeah.

And it's kind of your fault if you haven't achieved that. And you—

but then being accountable.

Yeah, yeah, definitely, mate. Yeah, 100%.

So let's segue into this sort of what you've been up to in the last 7 months, because you've, you've now sort of immersed yourself into a completely different environment.

Yeah, it's been good.

Yeah, he was part of a global recruitment business, loads of— surrounded by loads of people, loads of infrastructure that like obviously would be beneficial. And now you're in a business of how big?

Uh, so there's 9 of us.

9, yeah. And that was the sort of environment that I found myself in, right? So Yeah, I guess firstly, um, why don't we just talk a bit about— because just to let everyone know, so like you've gone there and you've started your— you've— in the last 7 months you've had to start a market that's new to you. Yep. And new to the recruitment business.

Yep.

From scratch.

From scratch.

So we're going to talk about that. But firstly, what I'd love you just to share in terms of the last sort of 7 months is— and this was sort of one of the questions that someone shared with me— is sort of what, what would you say are the benefits of starting your career with a obviously large recruitment business or growing recruitment business to versus a smaller one? Because you've experienced both now. So like, what, what, yeah, what have you got to share around that and the things that you've picked up on that's different and stuff?

So I think definitely the benefits of working for a larger business, you are surrounded by people that can give you help, that people want you to be the best you are, like the best you can. Um, you're surrounded by like really, really successful people, a lot of people, and everyone's kind of going in the same direction. And that really motivates you and you learn so much. Like, you know, big companies like the one I work for, Austin Fraser, like great training programs, you learn so, so much. And I can't— I genuinely can't take away and can't say anything bad about that because they taught me everything I know about recruitment. Um, and that's very difficult when you're different to coming into a small business that maybe don't have that infrastructure.

Yeah.

That don't have those training and development programs. Um, and it can be, and it is, it has been, it's been challenging but kind of fun at the same time. Um, but yeah, I definitely say like the, the, the training aspect of like those bigger companies can really, really help, like massively help.

And then what have been the positives for you so far that you've sort of experienced in the last 7 months being in a 9-person business?

Um, I think what's been really good, actually, like, um, can the, the directors of the business have been really receptive receptive to, uh, like how Austin Fraser have done work. Yeah. And they've actually asked me a lot of questions like, oh well, what are we doing well, what can we be doing better, like we've kind of hired you to kind of guide us on that. And I think what I've really enjoyed is kind of having a bit of a voice to be able to kind of change things and actually like, oh, I noticed that you guys are doing this, maybe we should try this.

Yeah.

You know, as a smaller business, the guys have like listened to things about like the systems that we use.

Yeah.

You know, the job boards that we're now using. And I think that's been really refreshing to kind of have that kind of people like listening to you and going, actually, yeah, we've— and then hope, you know, seeing benefits from it as well. Yeah, going, actually, this is so much better. Like, yeah, you know, we had like an old system called Firefish, which was, you know, it was pretty awful if I'm, you know, sorry. Yeah, sorry, Firefish. But then we went to Bullhorn, right? And Bullhorn is like, you can't with.

Yeah, um, you know, okay, no, I love that. And I put my own experience in, um, that, that's been, that was the biggest value that I got as well, like actually having an opinion, um, that was listened to, um, and then actually seeing the sort of person you work your absolute socks off for listen to you, implement it, and, and like seeing the impacts of that. I think it's really cool.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Um, so let's just talk about what the hell you've been up to in the last 7 months, because I think, again, something that's really popular that people ask me about is business development and all these types of things, right? So you've gone into a niche that you've never recruited in before.

Yep.

You joined a 9-person business, right? Like, you've got out of your comfort zone here, mate.

Yeah. Yeah. So like, to most people, that'd be like daunting.

So, so for me, let's just break down the last 7 months before we finish this. Episode. Like, like, what, what was the game plan? Like, how— so a few things. One, what was the game plan to get clients? Two, like, how did you plan to differentiate yourself? Yeah, right. Like, let's start there. Like, what was the game plan, mate?

Uh, the game plan was do it, do— so I guess what I've taught, what I learned from AF, which was get your name out there, start talking to candidates. I literally went in, never recruited for this kind of position.

You're building a database from scratch, you said?

I cannot— like, yeah. And, uh, Uh, there was nothing, like literally zero. There was zero candidates.

Like no one around you was doing the market that you can leverage off?

No, it was completely from scratch, like absolutely, um, yeah, brand new. There wasn't a single candidate on the database. So, um, so the first thing like I literally did was just start talking to, to candidates. The first thing I just— I had no idea about the technology and I wasn't— in my experience, like I'm not afraid to ask people like what things mean. But if you're brand new to a technology and you have no idea what you're talking about. Talk to a candidate and ask them.

And yeah, just quickly, sorry, just because it's like just in my head, like how did you identify the niches quickly and the technology? Just out of interest, like how, what, how and why did you pick the— because it's cybersecurity.

Yeah, cybersecurity.

So why did you pick that?

Um, so I actually, uh, so I actually spoke to, um, I was actually like at an event with someone, um, a technology event, and someone mentioned about it. Um, and I started to kind of look into a bit more, and I sort of saw this niche, and I was like, hang on a minute, this is pretty big. And I started seeing things on like the news.

Okay.

Like, I mean, most recent one, for instance, being Travelex. I know that there was— yeah, um, there was actually one that happened at, um, a company called Maersk in, uh, in Maidenhead. They're a big shipping company.

Okay.

And I read an article on that about how they were like— cyber criminals had basically hacked into their systems.

Yeah.

Um, and the, the CEO of the business walked in and all on the black screen things. Yeah, uh, he could just see someone controlling the computers. Yeah, um, and it just kind of like sparked from there. So I started taking a bit of an interest into it and I started reading a book about it, um, and I just kind of found it really, really interesting.

Okay.

And for me, one thing about like recruiting in technology, if you don't find it interesting, you're pro— not that you won't be good at it, but if you don't have a— you'll find it difficult because if you don't find it actually something that you really kind of enjoy, yeah, then it's kind of like— and when I have conversations with people, they're a bit more like, oh, actually, this guy's— I actually kind of— I'm enjoying talking about it and I like to learn about it.

Okay, nice.

Um, so I just kind of like— and it kind of like spiraled out of control. I was actually like, oh, actually, this is, this is really interesting. So for me, like, if some advice to anyone starting a brand new tech market, kind of maybe sit down with your manager and find out what's kind of new, what's, what's interesting to you as a person. Because, um, when you start finding things more interesting, you can have conversations with people that aren't about recruitment, they're about the technology, like what's the latest news out there at the moment. Yeah. Um, and people kind of buy into a lot more and they think you're— they kind of know you're a bit more credible.

Yeah.

Um, so I just started— yeah, I started literally like reading books on it. Um, okay. And just kind of really got into it really. And then I was talking to candidates about it and all these candidates were really passionate about it and kind of saying how it's massive and it's going to be really big and it's only going to get bigger.

Yeah, and I think that's a big part, just the punchline there, just to make it clear. Love what you said there, self-discovery, really going out there on your own to read about these things. But then clearly a big factor of you deciding, you know what, this is the market and vertical I'm going to build out, is that you recognize it, that it's going to be a growing industry. Like, that's the key, right? This is important because you could find something you're passionate about, but if there's no fucking money in it, there's no point.

Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah, definitely. And I think like you can actually do that as a recruiter. You can kind of sit down and do your own research. Just, you know, go online, go on Google and go write tech trends for 2020 or, you know, and beyond and kind of see like what people are recruiting for. Go on to like it.jobswatch and that will tell you like what the average salaries are for tech jobs in certain niches and, you know, within certain areas like, you know, cybersecurity, for instance, it pays really well. Like, so you're working on— Yeah, is that high salaries? Um, okay, people that you talk to are quite like— you have good conversations with people, and that's what I really love about it, is that you're having conversations with really professional people that know what they're passionate about, what they do. You're equally as passionate about helping them, um, with recruitment. Um, so I think, yeah, definitely, like, anyone out there, don't just kind of take the first thing and go, oh well, this is the technology you're recruiting for. Challenge— and that's a little bit harder if you're brand new to recruiting, but I think you should challenge the business a little bit. If you're joining a recruitment company, they go to you, right, you need to recruit this, and you're like, but hang on a minute, the technology says that we're going this way, and I'm reading about it, and I'm finding actually there are some really good tech trends. Go and talk to your manager and say, actually, I think we need to be doing this.

Yeah, nice. Um, so yeah, so okay, so start speaking to candidates.

Yeah.

How— like, mate, there could be so many different types of job titles that you could go for, right? So how the fuck did you identify that?

Uh, so I I pretty much kind of like sat down, um, and just did research. I was literally on JobServe, I was putting in cybersecurity, I was looking at the different levels of cybersecurity on Google.

Okay.

Um, just researching. Like, I don't, I don't think necessarily people realize how important research can be. Mapping out the market, mapping out the market, researching it, understanding the different job titles, and you know, just how important that can be to your market and like what you're recruiting recruiting for. Like, there's no point just, like I say, recruiting for something if you've never researched it, you know nothing about it. Yeah, actually go away, sit down, um, really do some research, look into it. Um, again, you don't have to know like everything, like people at the other end of the phone.

That's gonna be my thing, like how, how— because I think that's what a lot of people are worried about. So like, how was it received by these people, and how did you approach these people when talk— talking about a technology market you've never done before?

Um, so I think like if you're really honest with people, um, I kind of said this earlier, I think if you're really honest with candidates and kind of say, look, um, maybe like you're brand new to it, started, kind of say to them, look, oh, I just wanted to know a little bit more about this technology on your CV. Can you tell me a little bit about it? Um, ask these candidates like, what's the latest technology trend for you? Like, what are you seeing on the market? Um, yeah, like I say, just, just having those really kind of open, honest conversations with candidates. I, I do it now. Like, if I see something, I'm not an expert on cybersecurity, you know, I'm not a cybersecurity engineer. I I don't have that, but like, so I'm always like asking the guys, oh, what's the latest thing? What do you think we should look out for, like trend-wise?

Yeah.

Um, and just being really honest with them. Like, these people, like, no matter what tech market you recruit, they know you are not a technical person. So don't kind of get hung up and worried about it. Um, they respect what you're doing as a job, and they know that you're not there to be technical. You're there to try and like talk to them about a job that you've got.

I like it. So, so start with candidates.

Yeah.

Have conversations, start asking open questions, doing your research clearly. Yeah, how did you get jobs on, mate?

Uh, just everything, like just non-stop kind of. And I think we're going to talk about it, is just that resilience piece, really. Like, it just knowing that, you know, it takes time to get clients on. Like, I, I knew from like back in like, uh, when I worked at Austin Fraser, I knew that it sometimes can take a year to get a client on.

I think one of the longest—

yeah, yeah, yeah.

So how, how long did, how long did you give yourself? Uh, what, for to like pull jobs, to like make placements, pull jobs? Uh, I'm still doing it now, but like mentally, like for people listening, because again I think this is the thing, right? A lot of people can't get their head above the water and think like, when is this going to change? So like, no, obviously you've got the added context of working and recruiting for 6 years before taking this leap or whatever. Like, in your mind, like, how long did you give yourself to be like, right, so if I haven't got some success by X like maybe I should reconsider my strategy.

Um, yeah, so I, I gave myself kind of 3, 4 months to kind of get a deal within that space. Yeah, I kind of said, right, considering it's absolutely brand new, I know nothing about it, which I managed to do.

Um, and then how long did it take you? Uh, so that deal took me, I think it was 2 months into a brand new market.

Um, it was an existing client. Um, but yeah, what do you mean existing client? Uh, so it's a client that the company already worked with. Um, but yeah, brand new area of the business, no one to work with. Again, I had no real, you know, cybersecurity knowledge, so I was really pleased with that. Um, and I think now—

what about the— how long did it take to take your, your own client and job and fill your own job? Have you done that yet?

Uh, nope, not yet. Okay, I'm still doing it. So there you go, that's that. Okay, still doing it. Um, and I think that's like— that is, uh, a completely honest thing, starting a new market. I think if you've got— if you're starting a new market, even if you've got experience like I have, don't be worried about it taking a little bit longer because it does. You're, you're— there's a lot of recruitment companies out there that have been doing it for a little bit longer than I have.

Have you pulled jobs?

Yeah, pulled jobs. We've got some, we've got some really good clients that, like, hopefully now you sort of see the— I said the 6-month mark is where you, after everything you're doing, talking to candidates, managers, and adding all this data onto Bullhorn, that's when you then— now we're now start reaping the rewards, which is exciting. It's an exciting time.

So how, so how have you— what— so again, back to the resilience piece, So I'm sure this is sort of the self-talk and the things you're thinking in your head. So like, how and what sort of things are you measuring or being aware of on a monthly basis to be like, right, Joe, keep doing, we're getting close at 6-month mark. Like, I know it's— I'm building momentum here. Like, what sort of things are you sort of making sure you're gunning for to be like, right, that month, yeah, I haven't made a placement, I haven't pulled a job yet, but I've done this, you know what I mean? What?

Yeah, so I think definitely for me and anyone kind of starting a market from scratch, um, Um, the, the key thing is that— so I always run— so the way that I recruit, and I did recruit before, is very candidate-driven. So having these candidates that are on the database that you've spoken to that are good, good people, um, you know, I've now got— I think it's like 257 people, I think, I've added since I've been there that are really, really good cybersecurity infosec people.

Yeah.

And being like, again, coming down to just being like really rigid and on exactly what you do. Like, don't, don't stray away from it. Kind of be right. I'm only adding in the best people. I only want to work with the best candidates at the salaries that are kind of like high level, like the, you know, the $60K+ salaries, because they're the guys I want to work with. They're higher fees. Um, and then just kind of knowing that doing things like, you know, the managers added, but how many contacts are we getting into the database? How many BD calls are we doing?

Yeah.

Um, you know, making sure that you, you are on top of like doing the sales days, making sure that when we're doing that, like, I'm like, right, this is the list of people I'm going to call. I'm going to really like— I'm going to get this done. I'm going to call these people. Um, making sure that you're searching for people's mobile numbers, like something, you know, if anyone out there that hasn't heard of this yet, go on to the job boards, put a manager name in, his old CV might come up with a mobile number. Yeah, little simple things like that. Yeah, where that mobile number can be really helpful to your, like, BD.

Yeah, of course.

Um, so yeah, so just definitely doing things like that, making sure you know who's interviewing, uh, who the companies out there that are recruiting, and staying on top of it. And, you know, there's obviously thousands of companies out there that are recruiting, but stick to the ones that you know are using agencies.

Yeah.

And just keep going with it. Keep, you know, keep knowing that if you keep doing it and you keep doing the same, the same things over and over again, it can get mundane, but it will work. And eventually someone will come back to you and you'll be like like, I can't— it's happened. Yeah, I'm so happy. Like, this one client has come back to me, and you just kind of have that kind of almost like a bit of relief that after all that hard work and putting in all that effort, it will come and it will happen. But you just gotta stick to it. Yeah, just gotta stick to it. Yeah.

And how, how have— how has, um, as you're building out this market with the clients— I mean, at this point, it's you're getting these people to sort of buy into you and say, look, I will deliver this, like, how have you pitched it to clients that obviously you've now got some good clients you've signed terms with that you've done yourself? But like, what was— again, I'm thinking like some people might be thinking, right, I get it, Joe, definitely speak to candidates, you can be a bit more confident doing that straight out the gate. But the client side, why are these people going to give me a chance if I've had— I've got no track record? Because that's what you can rely on when you've got experience, right? Yeah, like you've got no track record, like you haven't made a single placement with a thing. So you've got to really, you know, I mean, you've got to come on, you've got to know your worth and all that. But like, how, how have you sort of articulated it and communicated to clients you've ended up signing out of interest?

Um, so I'll probably use a bit of a cliché sentence here. Um, you've probably heard it before, but the older act as if.

Okay.

I don't know if you've heard that.

Yeah, or the act as if, uh, like where you want to be, wherever you want to be.

It's pretty cliché in the recruitment world and quite cheesy, but, um, it actually works. Like, okay, if you go into a call and you're like, you know what, I am, I am a really good recruiter, I don't worry, don't matter about that you may not know the technology, but know that you're a really good recruiter. I know that the effort and the time that you will put into recruiting that job, yeah, and know that what the work that you will do to help that client fill that job, yeah, going into that call, that mindset is really going to help you. Like, it's really going to give you that, like, I even found, like, even, like, for me, like, I stand up So I like stand up if I'm on a call with a client. Yeah, I get that, like, that confidence comes from like standing up and just being able to kind of like, um, you know, again, like articulate what you do, you know, being able to just be confident and saying that. And like, they don't know that you're not the best recruiter out there. They don't know that. They have no idea that you're— yeah, that you, you might just be the person that has the best CV, um, that can give them the best service. And that's kind of the mindset that you are going with. And I, you know, even now I do it now. To the clients out there, and sorry to any clients listening, but I'm the best. I'm the best. I'm the best security recruiter that they're talking to, and I believe that.

Yeah.

And I really have that belief. And if that belief kind of—

so when we say act as if, yeah, what we're saying is, so like, are we— are we good? Are we saying act as if you've made a shitload of placements in the cybersecurity world and this is why you—

why not? Why not? But, but look, but why not? But yeah, that client—

well, I think, I think I think the reason why I'm pushing back on that is, I don't know, because there's sort of two, two cards here I feel like you could play. You could like, which you've already spoken about as being honest.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

So, and it's come up a lot on here when people start their own recruitment business or even potentially start a new market where people have literally said, hi Joe, look, this is where I'm at right now, this is the market I'm building out, this is why, these are the people that I've been speaking to, I've got 200+ people on the database right now, but this is where I'm that, um, give me a chance. Yeah, so that's obviously an option, right? And what, what a lot of people shared on here is that you'd be surprised how many businesses will give you a chance, want to help you out and take you on that journey or be part of your journey.

Yeah.

And then you've got this act as if. Obviously you can be whatever you want with that, but I guess that, that I'm just saying, that's why I'm pushing a bit back on that, you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, definitely. And I think like the, the bit around like, oh, you know, being someone that's like, look, I've started my journey, I've got this many candidates, that's still like an element of like, I guess we come back to like the, the self-worth thing and telling people that you're still a good recruiter, right? Yeah. And, and still, and that's absolutely fine to kind of go into that conversation and go, look, actually, yeah, all right, I'm 4 months in, but actually for the last 4 months I've been building a market, I've been talking to this. Yeah, people, I've been actually doing this, and like, I know what I'm talking about and I can really help you. Like, give me an opportunity sort of thing. Um, yeah, the act as if piece, I think, yeah, it's not going to work for every call, don't get me wrong, and it's not, and I think like, you know, in every call you've got to like— you have to kind of mirror what the situation is, you know?

Yeah.

And in some instances, yeah, it's not going to work. Some instances it's going to work. You know, when you're on a meeting like with a client and it's— you've never recruited in that space before, you have to kind of act like you are aware of what you're doing. Like, you have to kind of give that and portray that kind of confidence.

I think it's got to be a balance in that.

Okay, okay.

I think— I know, I think, I think because like, I think, or I guess from what I'm taking from what you're saying is like, but you strike me as someone that wouldn't be like this, but like if you went into that meeting acting as if you never feel this. I guess what I guess I'd want you to just be clear on is that that isn't you saying act as if like with an arrogance that you know, you know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's acting as if that you're someone that completely believes in the worth that you are, the value that you're gonna, you're gonna deliver on this, but at the same time having the humility to ask the right questions and find out, you know.

Yeah, it's not about acting as if and going in there and being a, being a dick. It's about like kind of actually like acting and going like like, look, I know that I'm new, but here's what I'm doing. And yeah, confidence and going, look, yeah, I know my worth and I'm gonna— yeah, I'm gonna give you the best service. And it's that kind of like level that it is, it is like— don't get wrong, it's difficult when you're brand new to recruitment. Yeah, that's hard, that's a hard thing. But it, it will like— when— if you can have that mindset of doing that and having those conversations, getting new clients on with new terms is going to be like a lot easier. Yeah, it'll come a lot quicker.

No, mate, 100%. I Yeah, just, it's just been interesting going back and forth there because I think some people will definitely find that hard. Yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, of course.

And I totally get it, but I think to sort of underline that, there's definitely nothing wrong with you being someone and sort of aspiring and acting as if you are, you're going to be the best person in the market. There's nothing wrong with that at all. I think for me, how I've approached my own business and stuff like that, for me, I've sort of probably used a bit of both. Yeah, personally, like, that's, that's just how I Yes, but it's just interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's different ways of doing it. I think like different, like different personalities are gonna, yeah, are gonna tweak the ways in which like work for them. And I think that's only, that's about finding out what works for you. But what works for me might not actually work for someone else. I think that's quite an important thing to make is that, yeah, yeah, there are going to be things that you do.

Everyone's different.

Everyone's different. Yeah. And there's gonna be things that I do or someone else does that aren't going to work. Yeah. But then you tweak it.

That's awesome, mate. Like, I love the fact that you've really clearly really gone out of your comfort zone, back to basics, like, yeah, really back to go.

Yeah, so any consultant again?

Yeah. So, um, yeah, mate, well, hopefully on the cusp of closing your own pull-and-place deal. Yeah, yeah, new market, new sector. Um, okay, mate, so look, before we finish, a couple of questions.

Yeah, go for it.

On resilience. I know the event coming up, right? So, um, yeah, so just to sort of— the first one is like, what, what does resilience in recruitment mean to Uh, yeah, cool.

So I had a little like think about this last night because, um, yeah, you only gave me the, uh, the criteria yesterday. Um, no, so yeah, so I think resilience for me like is, um, it's a, it's a multitude of different things. I don't think there's one thing that you can pinpoint as someone that is resilient. Yeah, I think there's like a lot of different elements that make someone resilient as an individual. Um, and, uh, like I said like earlier, I think even things, little things like like being on time, being on time for work just shows that your, your willingness to do this and your resilience to keep at this. And little things like that, like, can be a massive difference in you as an individual.

Yeah.

Um, I think there's resilience can also, like, for me, like, personally, I believe that resilience can be taught.

Yeah.

So if you've got a really good mentor and someone that is telling you that actually things do not always go well, yeah, things in recruitment and in sales in general typically will will be going wrong or not the way you want it to go. But if someone's actually kind of educating you on that, you're more likely to build up a tolerance of like, actually, do you know what, I didn't do a deal, but I'm going to keep going and I'm going to keep trying that and I'm going to keep it giving it my best shot because I want to be successful. So I think for me it's a multitude of like different things of like, uh, you know, like I say, like just different elements that can make someone a resilient, resilient individual. Yeah.

Yeah, nice. No, I'm happy with that. I think, um, I think you've answered the couple of them, so that's cool. So before I ask you the final question, mate, yeah, what, what are you excited about? What's going on in your world that you want to shout about?

Um, so I'm excited at kind of— I'm excited about building a business. That's what I'm really excited about. I'm excited from scratch. I'm excited about the direction that the business is going in, the trust that the directors have in me as a person to be able to deliver. Um, the trust that it doesn't happen overnight. Even at my— even with my 6 years of recruitment experience, I know I can't build a business within a few months or do, you know, 100 grand's worth of deals in 6 months. I just know that that's not— that's not where it is. But yeah, really excited that the business is definitely going in the right direction. Um, you know, we're trying to build something. We've just moved to like a nicer office, which is really cool. Like, it's a bit more like quirky vibe now, like you know, which we're really excited about. Um, so yeah, mate, and, you know, moved in with my girlfriend, which is a bit more on a personal note, but that's, uh, now, you know, paying bills and stuff.

Big change, that, mate. Oh yeah, yeah, no going back now, son.

She's actually going to be listening to this, so I'm not sure how much I can say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, really good. I think, um, honestly, mate, I think a lot of people— I think back to sort of what you said around, um, you can obviously, like, when you work for a big business, like, there's pros and cons obviously, but you, you can be comfortable. Like, you could have stayed, and there's nothing wrong with it, but you could have stayed at AF and not left there, and that's fine. But you decided not to. You've got out of your comfort zone. Yeah, fair play, man.

Yeah, I think there's like, there's so much, like, and I'm not trying to say anyone just like leave your job, but there is like, for people that are maybe looking for work that are listening that want to know like what's out there and the, you know, there is a lot out there. Go and explore, go and have a little look. Don't be afraid to go and try something that you've never done before. Go to a company that kind of trusts and believes in you and can see that, like, you know, see that kind of passion in you to do recruitment. And if you really want to get into it, go and explore those smaller companies that kind of maybe can trust you and you can be part of something, can kind of get really, you know, get right out of your comfort zone and try something you've never done before and just kind of like go with it. And that's kind of what I've done. I've really kind of just like, I know what works in recruitment for me kind of over the last kind of 6 years or so, um, and just trying it, like, and I'm enjoying it because it's something so different. It's kind of like a new element to my life, sort of.

Yeah, yeah, I like it, mate. Um, so look, final question. Yeah, you can answer this with a phrase, a sentence, a word, whatever comes to mind. Um, if Joe could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen, they'd take on your advice, they'd implement it tomorrow, what have you got to say to the people, mate?

Um, to the people, uh, don't worry about not doing deals or getting like real hung up on like recruitment and panicking. Don't worry about it if you're new to recruitment, even if you're like long in the tooth to recruitment, don't panic, you know. Ask your manager for help, ask people around you for help, look for advice, um, and just enjoy recruitment and what it actually is, you know. Don't get like down about it, you know. If you're going to work every day like this is awful, I hate it, probably not, maybe not right for you. But if you are like really enjoying it, and yeah, just, just don't panic about it, you know, like just enjoy the job from what it is because it's fucking amazing. So there you go, it's a good, good recruitment, it's brilliant.

So Joe, it's been a pleasure, man.

Cool, thank you very much, appreciate it.