Joe Mellor - Why are Recruitment Agencies so bad at hiring for themselves?

This is the Recruitment Roller Coaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Joe from Hunted.

Hello!

That's just how you're known, isn't it?

Joe from Hunted.

That's it. Um, and, um, just to set the scene, we're in, uh, the Hunted offices on a nice Thursday evening.

Yeah.

And we're gonna have a good old chat about recruitment, Joe.

Yeah.

And, um, because obviously we all know— if for any of you that do know Joe, he's, he's quite vocal about.

Just a little bit.

Just a little bit. So, um, yeah, so as you know, mate, where I always like to start, how did, uh, Joe from Hunted enter the recruitment world, mate?

How did Joe enter the recruitment world? Cool. So I suppose it starts with, um, I was a drama student at uni.

Okay.

So I graduated from uni and realized there was no jobs for drama students. So then I went into a sales job, got it through a graduate recruitment agency, and, um, in this office, we're in the shared office block, and I arranged a fiver size every Tuesday for everyone in the office block. And as part of our office block, there was a Rec2Rec in there. And after about 2 years of doing sales for this company, I was chatting to them and they, they said to me, have you ever considered recruitment? Because there's good money in it and it's really like sales. And, uh, I said, I haven't, but you know, let's have a chat. So they got me out to a few places, interviewed at a few places, and then right at the end of it, they offered me as well. They were like, I think you'd be a really good fit for us. So yeah, so I went and worked for them, chose them over the other opportunities.

How come you chose them?

Well, because I knew them already and I played football with them quite a lot, and I knew they were good guys. Yeah, I got on really well with them.

And this is in Manchester?

This is in Manchester, yeah, just on the outskirts of Manchester, Wythenshawe, for anyone that knows Manchester, which is a little bit ropey.

Is it?

Yeah, it's a bit rough.

What's like— obviously we're here in, uh, where, where we are. Is it— what area is actually this? The Hunted offices is like—

it's not Farringdon?

Yeah, yeah. So obviously, like, when you go out for lunch in Farringdon, it's pretty choice. Like, what have we got up there, mate?

So, and where we were in Wythenshawe, there was a chippy, so you could get fish and chips. Yeah. And, um, there was a place that did great jacket potatoes.

Oh my God.

And we charmed the ladies in there and they gave us extra portions.

Really nice. Decent.

And then there was a good Greggs, of course. And there was a Pound Bakery as well, which is like—

Pound Bakery?

Yeah, which is a Greggs knockoff, which is great. Uh, and then there was a big Asda as well.

Really? That's it. Decent.

No avocados or anything?

No avocados. Yeah, fair enough, mate. So what was you— what was you selling before you went into rep to rep?

I was selling it data center space.

Really?

Yeah.

How did you do that for?

How long?

Yeah, 2 years. Really?

Yeah.

Glamorous. Just complete like BD, like B2B.

It was, yeah, it was, it was all—

Was it decent?

Uh, no, I wasn't great. Really? I didn't really get any training, any support. It was a tiny, tiny company.

Was it put in a room with someone and was it just like cold call?

Yeah, a bit of that. And then there was like a bit of leads and we had some good partnerships and stuff, but yeah, I wasn't smashing.

Was it like deal value quite big? Yeah, was it like big?

Yeah, so there's some really big ticket items. It was like you could do a deal, could be sort of 10 grand a month contract for 12 months.

Really?

Yeah, like the smallest was about 3 grand a month but for a 12-month minimum. So yeah, it's pretty—

so like I can imagine the sales process is pretty quite long.

Yeah, it could be, it could be.

No, I just, I think that's interesting because surely some of that stuff helped you in this recruiting.

100%, you know what I mean?

Yeah, that's what's interesting. So just to frame it up, so joined that rec-to-rec firm, how many of them was there?

6.

Okay, so it's a small agency.

Yeah, but for rec-to-rec, that's a pretty decent agency, that is.

Yeah.

But yeah, yeah, not huge.

So, and then how long was you there for?

2 years, or less to the day. Yeah.

And then after that?

And then I moved to London.

And then is that when you joined?

No. So I went and joined a company called Ecom. I do like digital recruitment.

Okay.

And I was awful. I was so bad.

I was so, so bad.

How long did you last there for?

Uh, 9 months. Really? And then you joined Hunter? And then I joined And how long have you been hunting now?

Uh, 2 years.

2 years?

Yeah.

Okay, interesting.

Yeah.

All right, so let's go through that. Okay, so it's interesting then because obviously you, obviously you joined the Rec2Rec, and then like, what was that whole experience like then, mate? Like, that's the 2 years there, you just completely immersed into not just being a recruiter but actually being a recruiter that recruits recruiters.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

So I absolutely loved it. Really loved it. I was working with such a great team there. The guys, the guys, and, um, oh yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, they were superb. Every single one of them, loved them all.

Yeah.

Um, I had one of the best managers there I've ever had, and, um, the training I got there was superb.

Yeah.

Um, and it was all about building that relationship with people, really getting to know them, going for a beer with them, understanding what's most important to them, taking your time, not feeling like you're competing against every other Rex Rec out there that's trying to ship them out to as many places as possible. We were like, get them out 3 places that you think are bang on, really bang on, and, um, and do it that way.

What was your perception of recruitment then before you sort of entered this world? Like, as you were— as you then got to know more about the industry, the people you're dealing with, stuff like that, yeah, like, what was your perception before you did all that?

Recruitment?

Yeah, yeah.

I thought it was like long hours, really. It was like smashing the phone and it was all about call times. And do you know that perception that everyone's got a recruitment?

Yeah, I had exactly the same, really.

But I spoke to someone who worked in recruitment, they were like, it's not all like that.

So, so what, being a rec to rec? Yeah, difficult, that, innit?

It is, yeah.

Like, a lot of people just think, they're like, no way, like, I would never do that sort of thing, do you know what I mean? Because like, what, so recruiting recruiters, are they just an absolute pain in the ass, do you know what I mean?

Uh, They can be, yeah.

So you say more so than not?

I would say that I got quite a good relationship with the candidates I worked with.

And was it experience you were doing?

Yeah, so my sweet spot was like, um, people getting into the second or third job, so they've got sort of 18 months experience thinking about, is this the right company for me?

Yeah.

Okay, so people that have sort of started in a big KPI environment and want to go somewhere a little bit more relaxed, maybe. Um, but I was all about like my ratios there. So there were people in the business that were generating far more candidates than me, like way more candidates than me, but then they were having a lot of people drop out because for whatever reason.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, whereas I was like, I'll only generate a handful of candidates, but I'll make sure my ratios are really sweet. So I would partner with some really good clients that I trusted, that I knew could run an interview process that would be quick, that would not under-offer, that were fair. Um, and I'd work with candidates that would meet me and that would like sort of prove that they were willing to commit.

Yeah.

Um, and don't get me wrong, there was a lot of conversations on the go about how sort of long ongoing conversations about to help people, but once they were ready to go, I'd sort of properly vet them and make sure they were brought in. And then, yeah, that's Phantom.

Um, what typically then, just, just out of interest, what was like the most common frustration that you saw in people that are in that sort of period? Because I reckon a lot of people listening will be, I don't know, maybe in that period they might have joined the big business, they might join a smaller business, but probably a lot of people listening are 2 years in, 3 years in, more experienced or less than that. What was like the typical frustration that you saw that typically led people to be like, you know what, Joe, I'm actually open to seeing what else is out there?

Is that like a quite common frustration that you ended up always talking about that these people had, or, uh, yeah, I think that a lot of people wanted to move from sort of like a really outgoing, crazy drinking culture type environment and go somewhere a little bit more grown up with people that wanted to take the careers a bit more seriously. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, going out, crazy environment, if that's what you're into. But there are a lot of people that go and do that for 2 years, go hard for 2 years.

Yeah.

And then they're like, actually, do you know what I want? I want, um, a bit of work-life balance or a bit of flexibility or whatever that is. So, uh, yeah, that was quite a big one. Or like a lack of progression as well.

Huge.

Because so many people that are sticking good numbers on the board and then they're like, okay, I really want to manage someone, I want to have a resource or whatever it is, and the company won't do it because they're making good money.

So yeah, and they know that their billions will probably drop off a bit potentially if they do that. So it's okay, cool. So it's typically those sorts of things that people came to you about. Okay. And then, um, what I was going to say, so what, what have you— before we go into like the whole sort of, um recruitment business. I mean, recruitment businesses historically aren't great at recruiting for their own businesses, right? Yeah, which is mad. It's just mad. But I didn't know— I, I got a flavor of this, and because I, I was in a small agency outside of London, and then when I moved to London, just got completely like into the— just sucked into this recruitment world in London, obviously, which is mental. Yeah. Um, and like that, I really recognized that early on when I was meeting recruitment businesses and these types of things, that like literally typically their biggest challenge was hiring for their own business. Yeah, so we're definitely going to dive into that, but I'd love to get your thoughts in that sort of 2-year period. Like, what were some of the sort of common things that you saw in people that made them like really good at what they were doing, and the people that were sticking really good numbers on? Anything that you picked up there out of interest that you typically saw?

Yeah, do you know what I think a real difference is between people that are doing good numbers and people that are doing great numbers? Is that sort of drive that doesn't die, that doesn't drop out. I think that it's really easy to be super focused and into your job for a month, 3 months.

Yeah, yeah.

And then you like start cutting corners and you don't screen your candidates properly and you don't interview them properly and you don't get feedback properly, uh, and you just— because of that, your ratios drop. And then you try and put more balls in the air and it just sort of falls apart. The ones that do seriously good numbers are the ones that are completely methodical with every process. And, um, yeah, and really take the time and get to know people and treat everyone like this job hunt is important for that individual rather than rushing through it.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and you know, there are people that sort of have a high amount of activity and not very much quality that do good numbers, but I think the ones that do great numbers are the ones that, um, really methodical and know exactly what they need to be doing and they're willing to do it on a daily basis. Yeah. Or they work on a really great desk and they do contract. That's the alternative, isn't it? Like, work a sector that's like really buoyant that everyone wants to spend money in. Get lucky, land on a contract desk, build it up, ideally inherit some contractors, and, uh, and you're off, aren't you?

Yeah. Um, what I was going to say, a few things actually before we go on to the hiring piece. Um, like, I was really keen to get you your sort of experience, this, some thoughts on this. So like, if I'm listening right now and I'm at that sort of year mark, 18 months mark, 3 years mark, whatever, but I'm not a sort of bit of a crossroads where maybe I have pushed for progression within my business, or I'm not too sure if my future is within the agency I'm currently in because it's like, you know what, I think I'm sort of outgrowing this place, whatever it may be. Yeah, like what? And these people are going to be getting absolutely peppered by rector ex, do you know what I mean? Like messaged on a daily basis. So what, what are the things that people need to look out for, do you know what I mean? When they're, when they're, when they're like, you know what, I might actually be open to, um, looking elsewhere. Firstly, how, how do they spot a shit red flag? Oh mate, you know what I mean? Yeah, because like they don't have the best reputation. Like, recruiters don't have a great reputation, red flags don't have a great reputation at all either. So like, if I'm— no doubt, but 100% red flags add value, like definitely. How— if I'm getting like hit up and there's like 3 or 4 people messaging me all the time How do I— do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

What's going to make me—

just disclaimer this from the start, I really do rate certain rec-to-recs.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Some of my best mates are rec-to-recs. So, um, good rec-to-recs are the ones that genuinely understand their clients. And this is a misconception about rec-to-rec that I'm sure we'll talk, talk about soon, that a rec-to-rec doesn't have to work with every client out there, and they shouldn't work with that, with every client out there. When I was a rec-to-rec, I worked with a handful of clients that I really liked, um, If you see a rec-to-rec posting on LinkedIn, exciting opportunity, uncapped commission, industry-leading training— which anyone that follows me on LinkedIn sees that I ridicule these posts all the time— I would just run a million miles because they don't understand the client at all. Yeah, there are rec-to-recs out there that post fantastic posts about what the team's like, what the culture's like, where the manager comes from, how the manager recruits, and, um, why their clients love them, they're the ones you want to be working with.

Yeah.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with working with a couple. I think a lot of people say, I'll work with one exclusive because, um, they'll represent you the best. But if a rec2rec has got a really tight client base who they want to work with, another rec2rec might have a brilliant relationship with another great company. So I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Um, but just make sure they really know who they're working with, um, and they're not just going to spam your CV out to everywhere. Because someone will hire— if you're a recruiter and you're half decent, you walk into another job. Yeah, walk into another job.

Yeah.

So just make sure they know who they're doing.

That's really good advice. If you're getting hit up by anyone at the moment and you're considering it, like, actually take a look at their LinkedIn profile, what they're talking about. If they have messaged you or you've been on the phone with them, like, how well do they actually know their clients?

Yeah.

And, and really measure them on that, which I think you're totally right. Whenever I've done work with Rec2Recs or spoke to Rec2Recs, it's like, I don't have a problem getting clients, Hishem. It's, it's candidates and these types of things. But I think, I think that's a good point that It makes sense that the best ones would— yeah, that you don't need to work with everyone, do you?

So you could, you could even be saying, you could be like, look, this does sound like an interesting opportunity that you've tapped me up with, and I am sort of looking at the market. I don't want to know who your client is. I know you're not going to tell me that because you're worried I'll go direct, and that's fair enough. But can you just tell me something about their hiring manager that I wouldn't know from their website? Can you tell me something about their culture that I wouldn't know?

That's a great question.

Yeah, it's just something that you can open up a conversation to prove that they know what they're on.

That's really good advice, I think. Like, it's very kind of you. No, I think that's wicked. Um, okay, staying on this then, let's flip it. Okay, what should recruiters— what are the just the stupid shit recruiters do, do you know what I mean, when they're looking for a job? Yeah, like, what are they just the big no-nos that the people who are listening who are considering a job just need to avoid? If that's lying about how much they billed, or like, you know what I mean? Like, what are just the big no-nos which you've just maybe, through your process of getting better, ended up happening at the final interview stage? It comes out or whatever, you know what I mean? What are like the big— what are the things that people just need to stop doing if you're, if you're thinking about going into another recruitment job and you've got recruitment experience?

Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned billings because like we talk about that so much.

Really?

I think everyone sort of exaggerates the billings a little bit, apart from you in your first year, unless you had a real, real stinker in your first year. Um, But like, if you are gonna sort of skew your billings a bit, make sure you can work that out and like, you know, you know how it breaks down. So, so, so often you speak to a contract or temp recruiter and you'll be like, what did you bill? And they'll say a figure and you'll be like, okay, so how many runners have you got out? What's your margin? What's your margin at peak? And the figures just do not even come close to adding up. And then they're like, oh, I'm not sure on my figures. And you're like, well, if you're a recruiter that can do 200 grand a year like you say you are you'll know your figures. So if you're gonna blag your figures, know what you're on about. That's the first thing I'd say.

Yeah.

Um, stop leaving jobs off your CV, or, um, or stop making your LinkedIn different to your CV, because everyone can take a dud company. Like, you can go to a company for 3 months and hate it, and it's not right. You don't have to lie about that. That is fine. And I think that a lot of people would respect that you're going, okay, I really like the sound of your company because it sounds a million miles away from this company that wasn't right for me. Um, so just own that. Yeah, I don't, don't lie about that.

Don't feel like you need to lie about it. Yeah, just own it. I really like that. Don't— if you're gonna exaggerate your billions, actually know what the fucking numbers are. Yeah.

And then back that up.

Yeah, back that up. And then obviously, yes, that makes sense. Okay. Um, and then on the other side then Obviously this would be part, part of your job as a recruiter and these types of things, but for, for those listening as well, what, what sort of red flags that they— red flags that they should be looking out for if they meet a recruitment agency, maybe they've gone direct or whatever, that you— I don't know, you've ended up talking about, maybe if you've had candidates that you work with that are interviewing elsewhere that you've picked up on. Like, if I'm a recruiter right now, I'm interviewing other places, or I'm thinking about, and I meet people, like, what, what are the red flags that come to mind for you? If I was a recruiter of 18 months experience, 2 years, I want to progress my career, that I should be looking out for when I meet agencies?

Yeah, cool. So, um, obviously in Hunted we talk all the time about different uniques, different like unique perks that companies offer and how to find a company that's right for you. The first thing above everything else is just check out how many staff they've lost in the last 12 months. Go on their LinkedIn if you've got LinkedIn Premium, just see, is— have they been growing? Have they been shrinking? Have they been losing staff? Because That's massive, isn't it?

Would you ask that question? Is that a fair question to ask an interviewee?

Yeah, I think so.

How many, how many, how many, like, yeah, how many staff have you lost in the last 12 months?

Yeah, I mean, obviously you want to frame it in a way, the right way, makes you come across like you're interested in the company rather than just being an asshole.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, if you like, look, I'm, I'm really trying to get a handle on, on what you like as a business.

Yeah.

So, you know, recent people that you've lost Who are they? Where have they gone? Why have you lost them? If they've lost them to a direct competitor, then that's sort of red flag right there.

That's a valid question though. But yeah, I know you've got to think about how you word it.

Yeah.

So think about, okay, well, yeah, check, really check them out. How many people have, have got 3 months at this agency online? Um, and how many people they've got, these types of things. Yeah. Anything else, or are they the—

no. So I'd have a look at sort of that attrition rate, how many staff they've got. I'd look at, um, how well they progress internally. I think that's an important one. I think, um, are they promoting people from within? Are they bringing senior people in above people that are already there? You don't want to get trapped in a situation where you can't progress. I'd have a look at, um, what the clients are saying about them in the market, if you can find that out anywhere. You know, if you go on to Google Reviews, you can see what clients or candidates are saying about you.

Yeah.

Um, It's just really easy, isn't it, to say in an interview like, oh, we're so great, we're the best at this, we're the best at that, where you want to be finding out the truth from the people that are on the front line, the people that are there doing the recruitment. If you can interview people that are in the business, that's great, like get a handle on what they're like, just like to see if they're telling the truth. And also from a culture point of view, you know, is that the sort of culture you want to be— those sort of people you want to be surrounded by? Yeah, because they make it, don't they? Yeah, who you're surrounded by makes it. That's, that's all.

And would you— clearly that's so important. And like, would you encourage people to like try and meet as many people in the— I don't know, like what does that look like typically? And what's the typical thing that you've experienced where it's like, ah, I've, um, they'll meet the owner, then they'll meet like the two line managers? Obviously depends on the position, but how, how would you best advise people to really sort of soak up the culture besides— do you know what I mean?

So I'm a big fan of going out for beers after. You get an offer, go out for a beer with them, and just don't go out for a session with them because that always ends badly and, you know, someone ends up in tears. But, um, go out for a beer with them or a couple of beers with them. Chat to them about what they talk about in the office. Chat to them about, you know, what they get up to. Even where they take you for beers is a signpost about what sort of company they are, right? If they take you to a Spoonies, they're one sort of company. Or if they take you to Pool Bar One, they're another sort of company.

Yeah, that's so true.

So just see what, see what they're about. And I wouldn't take one company over another because one company didn't invite me out for beers.

Really?

Yeah. And, and yeah, I mean, I'll talk candidly, this was it, this was at Ecom, and my billings weren't great at Ecom. I met some fantastic people and got, still got some lifelong friends from there, but I think billings-wise I'd have done far better if I'd have gone to the other place.

Really?

And I made a call off who'd invited me out for beers.

And why did you make it off that?

Because I was like, that shows they want me, that shows they want me to meet the team. And I actually thought, I just moved to London, this other team hadn't taken me out for beers, and I was like, well, maybe they don't go out for beers, maybe that's a thing. I didn't really know many people in London, didn't really have many friends.

That was important to you to get the social aspect? Yeah, wherever you were.

Yeah, that's fair enough. So, um, I made that call, and yeah, billings-wise it wasn't fantastic for me, but you know, how would you— how—

what did you bill, mate?

I can't even remember the number, mate.

It doesn't matter. Don't lie, mate. Was it, was it more or less than 24K? Uh, uh, less.

It was less, yeah.

Oh, really?

Yeah, it was less. It was like—

and like, that's a bit weird, isn't it?

Because just to be clear, anyone listening to this is going to be like, why am I listening to this fool? He's, he's clearly not very good at recruitment. This was a sector that I was just not very good at. Rex is a different man.

No, that's fair, mate. So why, um, Why'd you join Hunted?

Um, because when I was doing Rec2Rec in Manchester, I saw them post on LinkedIn and they were funnier than me, and they sort of got it. They got what I didn't know when I was doing Rec2Rec in Manchester, that what I was trying to do was talk about branding and like how businesses should think about their branding. But that's what I was talking about. And then Hunted come along and all they do is talk about branding and how important branding is, and It's vital that every company understands what they stand for and really sort of drives that home. And I just completely bought it. Completely bought it, really. And then I met with James and I just completely bought him as well.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, I just, I just went with it, just, just completely. And I just want— I wanted to work there. And I reached out to James and I was like, look, mate, I want to work for you. Is there an opportunity? I really want to work for you. And we had sort of had a bit of a back and forth, and then But I found a way to make it work.

Um, okay, so then obviously now— so obviously you worked in retorate for 2 years, then did agency for 9 months. Yeah, a bit of a flop.

Yeah.

And then obviously joined Huntable for the last 2 years. So obviously you, you've— I guess a bit like me really, where you, you've ended up with a really sort of unique perspective on the recruitment industry. Because like a big reason why I started this and remember, obviously it's become obviously a lot more easier now, but when I was in this small office in a recruitment business outside of London, there was 8 of us. Like, it can feel like it's just like you, like you guys just trying to make shit happen. And it typically, it hasn't been an industry where people are willing to share sort of their challenges, ideas, and these types of things.

Yeah.

So I think, but however, you've, you've got 4 years experience of actually looking from an outside into the recruitment industry.

Yeah.

And that's obviously what, what I'm getting access to now. So I think obviously you're in a— you've been in a really cool position to, um, look at people's employer brands and how recruitment agencies communicate what they stand for and these types of things. Yeah, so, so well positioned to talk about that, right? And be passionate about it for sure. So I guess obviously there's so much that goes into this, but like, let's just start with like, what, why are recruitment agencies so bad at hiring for themselves?

Is that—

is actually like the craziest thing.

Yeah, it is. It's mad.

It's actually mental because like, if you think some of the most successful recruitment businesses, how much money they're charging, how much value they bring to their clients and candidates, and they're just absolutely shy to doing it for themselves. Yeah, it's mad, isn't it?

It is crazy. I love how you say let's start with that. That's a massive question.

That's what I mean. But like, let's just start with that and see where that goes because it's interesting, isn't it? Like, and there'll be a lot of people listening that are hiring for their team and it is difficult and these types of things. There's loads Like, let's just start there. Like, why, why, why are people— why are they so bad?

Cool. So I think, um, as a starting point, recruitment businesses don't know what they stand for and they don't know who they're looking for to work for them.

Yeah. So when you say stand for, what do you mean?

So they don't know what their identity is, or— okay, so a lot of recruitment businesses think it's acceptable to be a little bit better than shit. Okay, so you speak to a recruitment agency and you say, what are your USPs? And they say, we're not KPI'd, we're autonomous, um, we, we want the sort of people that have worked for Michael Page, and they want somewhere with a little bit more flexibility. Okay, what you've told me there is you've told me what you're not. You've told me that you're not Michael Page. Everything you've positioned there is what you're aspiring not to be. Tell me what you are. Um, it's like in no other industry would you, would you have that way of selling anything. You wouldn't like buy a pair of trainers— Adidas wouldn't sell their trainers as being, we're not Nike. They would be, we are Adidas. So what are you, not what are you not? And it's really difficult. And I think a lot of recruitment businesses are like, well, actually, if we're being honest with one another, we're the same as everyone else out there. And you're not They're absolutely not. Recruitment business— every recruitment business is different. And I'm so passionate about this, and I get so angry because recruitment businesses are so crap at, at saying what makes them unique. And we talk to hundreds of recruitment businesses every week about really sort of digging down what makes them unique versus everyone else. And that is so important.

That is a difficult thing to do though, isn't it? Yeah, really figure out— it's not easy.

I mean, it's not easy, but, but there are constant themes that you can, you can, you can look at. And do you know what, I think a lot of it stems from this idea that, you know, KPI is a dirty word, and the idea of being like somewhere where you have to get on the phone and BD is seen as a negative thing. And like long hours— oh no, like we can't do long hours in recruitment because it's seen as a negative thing. Businesses need to own what they stand for, what they are. And there are companies out there who are really old school, like smash the phone. Yeah. And work long hours, and the recruiters are making a lot of money and they're doing a good job. And because I don't think this is any less valuable for the recruitment industry, because I think that, you know, you're putting people into jobs that they are enjoying and they're staying there and they're, and they're enjoying what you've— how you've helped them. So that's a great thing, definitely. But they then go and they advertise themselves as like flexible working and like No, okay, so it can't be something that they're not. And yeah, they're not that. Own it. Say like, do you know what we want? We want someone to come in here and smash the phone, but I guarantee you'll make more money here through our management style, our leadership, our training, than you will anywhere else. But instead they don't, and they say something really weak. And, and it, and it really frustrates me because there are some seriously good agencies out there that are just not framing things in the right way. And I really want to help them, but then, um, yeah, it's just quite a difficult conversation to have.

Would you, um, what do you think? So you said there all recruitment agencies are different.

Yeah.

What do you think makes them different? Because a lot of people like— do you know what I mean? Because what actually makes them different in your— from your perspective, do you think?

Um, a lot of it's culture, the people you've got on your team.

Yeah, people.

So you boil it back and you say, okay, so we have candidates, we have clients, and we have a weird little process in the middle that marries up the two. And that's our job. That's, that's everyone's job in recruitment. Well, that weird little process in the middle, we could put everyone in the same room, all the same companies with the same clients and the same candidates, and that process would be way different. And the people that are doing it would be way different. And, you know, like, you could even have, you know, certain two sets of companies that got to make the same amount of call times, and the calls would be completely different.

Yeah.

Who they'd be calling, they'd completely different. And it's like, are you gonna— do you want to join a company that goes out, finds a load of candidates, gets to know the candidates really well, really invest some serious amount of time into those candidates, gets to know the market really well, they give you leads on who's hiring, who's leaving, who's on the market? Or do you want to go and attack your client side? Do you want to go and find clients first, go and really win some clients, get to know them, get to know what makes them tick, really understand them better than anyone, any other recruiter out there? Both of them have done serious amount of call times there. but two completely different styles. Yeah, appealing to two very different recruiters. But I bet you no company thinks about that when they're thinking about their— who they're trying to hire. No one goes to that degree, and that— you should be going to that degree.

How should they— how, how should— how, how, how do you think people should start if, if— yeah, like if I'm in that sort of position right now and yeah, I'm a bit like, yeah, like I'm just talking about things which I think people want to hear and I'm not owning sort of what we're about. What's like, how do you think, from your opinion, like how do you think people should start communicating what you just said there, like their people, their culture, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

How should— how can people start doing that?

But like, how can they find that out for themselves, or where can they—

well, like, let's say, let's say that they, um, they, they make some real time to think about it and they're like, you know what, you know what, Joe, you're speaking a lot of sense, like we need to own what we're about here.

Yeah. Thanks.

Obviously, besides going on Hunted, like, how, like, how can someone start? Because that can seem quite daunting, can't it? You know what I mean? Yeah. What's your view on, like, how, how can someone start communicating what they're about, um, and really owning what their culture is and, and the value that they bring and how they approach things? Like, what would you say to people who are like, you know what, I really get what you're saying, how, how can I start doing— how can I start communicating this? So what would your thoughts be?

I mean, the first thing you've got to do is go to your staff and actually make sure that what you're communicating is right. Because I think so often things are implemented top-down without actually going and consulting people that are recruiters that are actually doing it. Because the recruiters themselves are the ones that are— or the team, your whole team are the ones that are creating that culture. They're the ones that are making that culture of your business. So you've got to consult them. But then after that, I mean, it's a word that you love to talk about, and it's completely right. We need— it all comes down to branding.

From branding.

Yeah, it's all branding. And that's everything. That's, that's every touch point you might have with a potential person joining your business, from content you're putting on the internet, on LinkedIn, the way that you're writing job ads. Um, are you sponsoring events? What events are you sponsoring? Are you meeting with people? Where are you meeting with people? How are you meeting with people? Um, where you're interviewing people, like, what's your interview process? Everything is a touch point, and everything can be used to convey sort of what you stand for, what you're about. Um, and that's, that's everything. That's your office that you work in, that's where you go for a drink on a, on a Thursday or a Friday. That's all what you, what you stand for. And all these things are important to get across. So I mean, obviously working for Hunter, the big thing for us is sort of digital and sort of your digital presence and how you can get that message across, because that's the easiest way to convey it to so many people. But just the tone that you use. I mean, what we're straying here into actually is we could stray really quickly and easily into personal branding there as well. But as a business, who's representing you, how are they representing you, and what are they saying?

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, I think like just the biggest asset that hiring managers have, teams have, recruitment business, is the stories and the people in that, in that business, isn't it? Yeah. It just is. And I think for me it's, um, yeah, for me I think it's just showcasing that and owning the stories within your four walls and being willing to champion, champion the staff within your business. And these are all things that a lot of people already do within their four walls. If it's making sure that when it's someone's birthday they get a birthday cake, or like just as simple as that, but actually like showcasing that online, it's just so important because As you'll know, Joe, there's so many, um, agencies online that they, they just don't— they, they do look the same and they don't look human. And what's going on there for us is just really not evident outside of that.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Well, do you know what I think people fall, um, sort of, sort of victim to is that they write to recruiters in the same way that they write to their clients. So if you're a finance recruitment agency and you're quite corporate to the exterior, I bet good money that when you go out for drinks on a Thursday, your recruiters are not stood there prim and proper at the bar, like, speaking in corporate language. They're completely down-to-earth people who are up for a laugh. Yeah, they're the people that you're trying to attract, and they're the people that want to join you. So talk to them like that. But your choice of the word stories there is really interesting, actually. I never thought about it like that. But we talk about quite a lot in the office, don't talk about the what— not what you are, it's how or why. So what? I'm award-winning. We're an award-winning company.

Yeah.

Well, how are you award-winning?

Yeah.

What have you won and why have you won it? So we won a certain award because all of our clients said that we were great. Okay, that's superb. Why did your clients say you were great? Oh, because actually our retention with everyone that we've placed there is 97%. Okay, great. Why is your retention 97%?

Yeah.

And you're like, I was listening to someone the other day that was talking about the 5 whys, that if you ask why 5 times—

oh no, it wasn't Simon. That's not Simon Sinek, is it?

I don't know, I can't remember.

But 5 whys, yes, like keep digging down.

Yeah, and we talk about that all the time. So, um, you know, if you're— if, if you say, oh, we're a great place to work and people love coming to work here, give me a quote.

Let's—

let me hear from someone that works there. Film them, stick them on YouTube and say, yeah, this is why Tony loves coming to work and this is what he has to say about it.

Yeah.

And let's see who these people are. Just really interesting.

It's just funny though when those types of people feel like they've got a gun pointed at them.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. You've got to, you've got to stay away from people trying—

but people trying that, and maybe it comes across a bit stiff in that, it's still so important that they're trying and trying to showcase it. I think that is still fair play in that, that people try that. But sometimes, yeah, fair enough.

I just think that, I think that, um, having an identity is everything, everything. And there are plenty of recruitment businesses out there that I don't— I wouldn't want to work there. Not my, not my style of doing recruitment, but fair play to them for having an identity. And there are people that want to work there. They hire staff far more easily than those that don't have an identity. And it— and I just really want— there's some superb recruitment businesses out there who have insane perks and they just don't know how to articulate them.

Um, Yeah, when you say perk, what do you mean?

Um, something that they offer that goes above and beyond your salary and your holidays and your basic package that you get. And I think people— you can talk about perk as in, you know, flexible working or amazing commission. Or perks as well could also, I think, be like your culture and the fact that actually someone sitting 3 seats down from you just pulled a lead, that they know that you can work better than them. And they've passed it over to you. Yeah. And that's a perk because you're getting a little bit of support there from your business. Yeah, I think that's a perk as well.

Best perk that you've seen?

Um, I don't know, for me.

Hmm, obviously it's individual to everyone, isn't it? What are some of the best things that you've seen that people have shouted about?

I mean, a lot of businesses— I'm not— a lot of businesses, some at the minute are talking about recruiters working one day a week from home. Which is great for some people.

I would like working with mine.

I wouldn't know, because I love the buzz of the office and like, yeah, I need to be around people. Yeah, I love that.

Um, yeah, that is a good perk though for people, the right people.

Yeah, and it's different people, different circumstances, aren't they? You know, if you want flexible working and, you know, there's a reason for that and you need to be somewhere at a certain time, then great, that's, that's what's most important to you. If you want to have the best commission structure, then I think that's going to be a very different business person because it's trying to incentivize a different sort of person.

Um, anything else that you see?

Maybe James and Guy could give us a free gym. That'd be decent, wouldn't it? If they pay for my gym membership, that'd be great.

Membership is a great perk.

It is.

Yeah, I think that's, that's great.

Oh no, do you know what, actually, do you know what I love about Hunted? Um, we partner with— little plug here— and we partner with Sanctus, who are—

okay, mental health charity. Yeah.

And we, every month, we have mental health catch-up thing, and it's fantastic. Can't shout about them enough. I think they're awesome.

Yeah, that's wicked. No, I think that's amazing. Worst perk?

I mean, I, I, if the moment someone writes uncapped commission on a perk, I— it drives me insane, mate.

Why does it drive you insane?

It drives me insane.

Why?

Tell me when you've ever seen a capped commission structure. Once. I've never seen one.

Yeah, yeah, I have never seen that. A perk, it's not—

why do we use that word? It's the most pointless word in recruitment. Uncapped. 'Oh yeah, I'm sorry, I've done, I've done 40 grand this, this, this month.' 'Oh yeah, we're going to cap it at 20.' 'No, you're not. There's absolutely no way.' You are stopping that person. 'Oh, do you know what, I've done 20 grand this month, I'm not going to bother doing any more because I'm not going to get any more money.' Yeah, it just does not happen.

Yeah.

Um, free fruit is pointless as well. A banana is what, 15p?

Like, free fruit, come on. Yeah, I know, I know, I know what you mean. What, um, out of interest then, what are like some of the real common mistakes that you've seen hiring managers make? Maybe back to your Rec2Rec days, but like, or like, where have you seen a lot of common mistakes where, you know, you're talking about owning it and it's all the different touch points and these types of things, you know what I mean? Whereas what are some of the sort of common touch points that you've, um, noticed that people have maybe mucked up on quite a lot of the times and these types of things where people get it, get it wrong, where it's like quite an easy thing to I mean, some people may not notice that when they sit them down in a particular place, it's like that kind of then tells you, but Joe, they sat me down this place and it was really weird and it was horrible, like don't, don't get me another interview there. Did you know what I mean? Is there any common sort of mistakes that you've picked up on maybe?

So I think that, um, because hiring managers know that recruitment or recruiters are so in demand, they sort of do a big sell on what the business is. And again, they go back to doing this sort of a generic generic sell on what makes them great, but you've got to find out what makes that individual tick first. Yeah, like, so easy for— when I first moved to London— nice, nice of the beer on the go for you there, mate. Hey, um, when I first moved to London, I interviewed at this company that I thought was great. So I was having a look at different things, interviewed at this company, and on my first stage interview, all they did was talk at me. And I remember thinking, I'd said about 5 words this whole interview.

Really?

I was like, you know nothing about me. They said, we're desperate to get you back in, we'd love to, we'd love to see you again. And I was like, no, I don't, I don't really want to come back in, if I'm being honest.

That's really interesting.

So really, I mean, people want to, people want to feel wanted, don't they? Everyone wants to feel wanted in the next job. You want, you've got to get to know them. So that's so key.

I guess that's a really important point to remember, that obviously you have to, it's both ways, isn't it? Kind of has to sell themselves and they have to sell their company. But if it is just, if I'm a hiring manager right now and I'm in an interview and I'm just selling pounding it into Joe like, this is why we're great, this is why we're great.

Yeah.

And you said like a few words. Yeah. That isn't going to get you excited, is it?

No, not at all.

That's a really important point because it's easy to do that because it's like, as you know, it's— if I've got a recruiter in front of me, he's got 18 months experience, he's pretty decent, yeah, he's gonna get a job.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? It's like a hiring manager is going to be like, right, okay, he's definitely going to be interviewing it. Yeah, I need to sell him hard here. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's— that must be a— that makes sense.

Yeah. And then on the flip, one of my favorite clients I've ever worked with, um, I think they're a fantastic business. They've got a really interesting offering, RPO business, so a lot of recruiters want to work there. They were taking like 6 weeks to do a recruitment process, so they're doing 3 stages, really, and then meet the director or something daft. And because it was RPO and you know, there's a, there's a lot of people that want to move away from agency into RPO. People were sticking with the process for quite a long time, and then like week 4, just going like, no, I've had enough of this, this isn't for me. If this is how you run an interview process, like, I can't imagine what it'd be like to work here, really. So just getting a bit of a shufti on, you know. There is— I don't think there is any need in recruitment to do more than like a 2-stage process and a meet the team.

Yeah, the rest is pretty solid, you know.

Meet them for an hour, have a really informal chat. Meet them a second time, maybe grill them a bit harder, maybe ask them to do a presentation if they're a bit more senior. Meet the team as well, get the team's input on them. You've got a pretty good handle there.

Yeah.

Are they a good culture fit? Are they going to build well? Do they hold the same values as you? You should know if you're going to hire them or not at that point.

How should people sell recruitment?

How should they sell recruitment?

How should— how do you think people should sell recruitment? How do you think people should sell recruitment?

Um, uh, I don't know how to answer that really. Like, okay, so here's why.

Go on.

You know, at your event last week— yeah, which was fantastic, anyone who missed it—

but he—

next one.

Yeah, I—

there was quite a long conversation around recruiters should be adding value first and making placements second.

Yeah.

Really interesting point.

Yeah, love it.

I think it's a really good conversation we need to have. The issue is our clients are paying us for making placements, not for adding value. Yeah, unless you work in a different type of model. I'm talking about pure agency, which is great, but adding value is only going to keep the lights on for so long before you need to make a placement. And I think we need to have a conversation about how we can be adding value, which is something that Hunted do, and plug for Hunted that they do more than just make placements, um, but we need to be having a conversation about monetizing, adding value. Otherwise we're gonna— we're not gonna last, you know. So I think that adding value goes hand in hand with making placements. You can make placements that add value to a person's career, and you can add value to someone's career which then results in them later down the line coming back to you for the next placement. But, um, we've got to remember that in a contingent basis, you're only getting a fee when you make a placement. So it's got to be in some way still a sales job.

Do you think, um, this came up at the event as well, like, it— like, I work contingent. How, how long do you think that'll last?

Um, I think there'll always be a place for Yeah, I think they will, because a good business will recognize if you've got someone of value.

Yeah, if you've got someone that— yeah, if you've got someone that'll add value to the business, then yeah.

Let's talk about contingent rec to rec. If I am— if I was a contingent rec to rec working with a candidate who I knew was going to do 10 grand a month, that's what they've always done. Say they've done more than that, 15 grand a month. So let's say they're going to do 10 grand a month, they're going to put 120K on your bottom line over the next 12 months, and I'm asking you to pay me 6 grand for them. I mean, the economics of that work out really well, don't they? You know, that's great. Every party, isn't it? So that's going to always be there. I love all these sort of embedded companies that are coming out, and I think a lot of businesses are having a conversation about, about embedded solutions. And even like pure contingent agencies are talking to me about it, asking me sort of thoughts on solutions.

Yeah.

Um, and I think a lot of recruiters are, are attracted to it because you can really add value to a client. But I do think that contingent, you know, there's, there's a value in a good person joining your business.

Yeah.

So someone's always going to pay you a fee.

Yeah, yeah, no, so true. Um, of interest, yeah, how, um, how different do you think the sort of typical recruiter is today than it was when you, uh, was starting out in Manchester and like tapping up people and stuff. Like, do you think the sort of recruiter back then— obviously, what, that's what, 4 years ago?

Yeah, 4 and a half years ago.

4 and a half years ago.

Yeah.

How different do you think that typical recruiter was then compared to where we are now?

Hmm, uh, I think there is a difference, but the interesting thing what you said there was in Manchester and there is still a huge difference between London as a market and the various different regional cities as a market. Yeah, I'm certain that there are certain businesses that you speak to in certain locations and they just are not in any way interested in embracing the idea of branding or marketing, even for themselves to their own clients.

Yeah.

And it baffles me because, you know, you're doing all your business off word of mouth, which is, is gonna run its course at some point. When good, good businesses can promote themselves through marketing, you're going to lose out to them. Um, so I'd say there is quite a difference. I think that people now are talking far more about flexible working. I think they're talking far more about, um, sort of genuine progression and development that is bespoke to them and having training that's bespoke to them. Um, but I also think there's a massive divide between London and other cities in, in how we go about approaching recruitment. And I'm not saying one's better than the other.

Yeah, yeah, that was my next question. Okay, Manchester or London?

I mean, Manchester's my home. I mean, it's not Stoke-on-Trent, but Manchester's my spiritual home. It's like, really, I love that place.

Really?

Best city in the world. So good. There's decent, like, London's decent.

Yeah.

But like, um, yeah, Manchester, mate.

No, I really like Manchester, really like it. Um, okay, mate, so, um, Joe, you're leaving recruitment?

Yeah, I am. Oh, people get all the way through and then they're like, what? I'm not gonna listen to him now. Yeah, I'm leaving recruitment, mate.

What are you doing?

I'm off to become a police officer with the Met Police.

That's mad.

Yeah, a bit of a change. Rec to rec to a copper. Um, both, both, um, not got the best reputations out there in the market. Uh, yeah, I am. And this is why I was really keen to come on, because I don't— what I don't want people to think is me think— is me coming on and being like spiteful and slating recruitment, because I absolutely love this industry. I do. I think it's a mental industry.

That's mad.

And I think we need to, um, address— and apart the fact that there are a lot of people that come into it and do a few months and then leave.

Yeah.

And that is always going to be the case because it's not right for everyone. But I really wanted to come on and just try and start a conversation about— for certain recruitment businesses out there that are struggling to hire and are going, this ruck-to-ruck's rubbish, he's not helping me, this job board's not working. And saying, look, there is other ways we can do this. We can help you hire, and you are a great business. You're going to find staff. You just need to change your outlook on it. I just wanted to do that before I left recruitment altogether.

Yeah, this is the place to do it, mate. So if— interesting— if, um, obviously leaving recruitment, becoming a police officer. Yeah, is that right? Police officer? No, policeman. Police officer. Um, If you would— so obviously, yes, obviously you're gonna go into that, and let's say like you did not hear anything about recruitment for 5 years.

Yeah.

And then, but if you were to like just dip back in 5 years from now, what would you like to see of the recruitment? Like, what would you— how would you have liked to see things evolve? Or how do you know— I mean, what would you— what would you love to see change?

Hmm, I would like to see, um, more companies working either retained or exclusive. I would like to see, um, sort of the embedded model grow, but with recruiters within that recognizing that embedded is very different to internal. It's a very different proposition. I would like to see the contingent, contingent agencies that remain sort of, I would say, remain this, you know, it's not like they're going to go under in 5 years, is it? You know, it's going to only grow and grow. But like the other contingent agencies, the other way recruiting, recognizing that you can't just spam a CV and hope for the best, you've got to add real value. I think Tony said— was it Tony that said that at your event?

Yeah, so one of the questions, which, um, it was from James actually, I thought it was a great question. Like, obviously there's so many agencies still working old school like, what habit would you love to see die out? Yeah, it's such a good question.

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

And he said that, and, and he nailed it. Absolutely.

No, it's not good enough to just spam a CV over now. Yeah, just really not. So I'd love to see that it sort of grows up and matures into recognizing that it's about relationships. And yeah, don't get me wrong, there's a time for going, picking up the phone and dialing a hiring manager or an internal recruiter and saying, look, I've got this person. From what I know about your business, I think they'd be great But that, from what I know about your business, is important because that shows you know something about them rather than just blagging it.

Yeah, yeah. Do you think you ever come back to recruitment?

I'm gonna hope not, otherwise, otherwise I'm making a really bad career move now and I'm just wasting time.

Um, yeah, fair enough, mate. Maybe, maybe, who knows, who knows. Before we finish, mate, yeah, so what— well, I always ask people what they're excited about. I guess for you Just, yeah, become a policeman.

Yeah. And plug, otherwise James will slap my wrist.

Yeah.

Before I leave, I'm excited that Hunted is absolutely going from strength to strength, and all the things we've talked about, the reason I've loved working here is that they are at the forefront of having those conversations. But not, not to plug too hard because I know it's boring to listen to.

No, that's cool, that's cool. Well, last question.

Yeah.

If, if you could communicate to every recruiter out there and they'd listen to Joe— yeah, it could be a word, a phrase— what would you say to them?

What, a phrase?

Yeah, like, so like they'd implement your advice, they'd take it on. It could be a phrase, could be a word. What comes to mind if all the recruiters out there would listen and take on your advice? What would you say to them?

Um, know what makes you unique. Know what makes you unique. And I mean that as a business, and I mean that personally. And, um, who was it talking about at your event? But like, standing out from the rest.

Yeah.

Um, knowing your market, knowing what makes people tick, building up a solid candidate list, people that really trust you, that you add value to.

Yeah.

Solid client list, owning your market, and just like not taking yourself too seriously.

Have a bit of fun with it.

Yeah, have a bit of fun with You know, someone— sorry, I'm rambling on, but case in point, um, internal— no, not internal recruiter, marketing director, head of marketing for Matt Burton Associates.

Okay.

RPO in Warrington, I want to say. All right, top of my head.

All right.

All he does is post daft things, daft things all day on LinkedIn. Like, it's completely himself. Thousands of likes they get. And he said at a LinkedIn event, the amount of people that reach out to him wanting to work for Matt Burton Associates because he represents their brand. They think that he is what they stand for. Yeah. And he owns it, and they do so well because of it.

Yeah.

And he posts stuff, things, you know, Mike Winnett, Dan Kelsall, you can name them all, like all these people that post stupid things, get serious traction. That's, that's what we want to see, isn't it?

Yeah.

So know what makes you unique and just don't be too serious.

Joe, it's been a pleasure, mate. Thanks, mate. Enjoyed that.

Thanks.