John Gaughan - Flexible Working and Future Of Work Special

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name's Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm really excited to be joined by John Gorhan. He's a CEO of Finney James, who are a specialist tech sales recruitment business, have offices in Manchester, London, San Francisco, New York. They currently have circa 45 people in the business, currently have been going for 17 years in July, and me and John have sat down previously. John's also participated in a live podcast webinar during this period as well, but what we're going to do today is going to be a bit, bit different. I think, John, obviously you thought it'd be a good idea with so many recruitment business owners, recruiters thinking about what is work going to be like after this, how flexible is it going to be, am I going to be in the office 5 days a week, like what does actually returning to work look like, And I know that you've had some interesting experiences in the past with things that you've implemented with your business that I think you felt that you was really inclined to sort of share and sort of talk about how you're thinking about things and the conversations you're having. So we're going to have a sort of dedicated conversation. We've got a bit of an agenda around, I guess, the future of returning to work, returning to a recruitment business, right? So, um, I think, I think you did talk a bit about this when we, we sat down a while ago, but I think what we wanted to start with is Project Freedom and what that project was to you and your business. And let's just, just start there and fill everyone in on sort of what that project was all about.

Okay, yeah, so Project Freedom was, uh, an experiment that we ran 2 years ago now. So myself and Sarah, my wife and business partner, and James May, our MD, we sat down and we basically said, let's just break everything up and see, can we experiment on working in a slightly different way? So we'd all worked in recruitment, well, certainly myself and James had worked in recruitment for, you know, I was 25 years in, James was, 10, 12 years in, and we kind of said, look, is there a way of doing things where we can be more productive, more efficient, and have more fun, and, you know, create more revenue and make more profit? And we kind of looked at 2 or 3 things we could do, and then we settled on what we termed Project Freedom. So we started with one team, so it was our Amia team, And we basically sat down with those 5 people and we said, look, moving forward for the next 6 weeks, you guys can work where you want, when you want, and the only thing we are physically interested in is the results. So it's the interviews, the revenue, the deals, the profit. That's the only thing we want to talk about.

They were the only outcomes.

All outcome-based, all results-based. And so we basically said, if you want to spend some time in the office, you can do that. If you want to spend time at the beach, you can do that. If you can, if you want to, you know, work a couple of hours in the morning and some hours in the evening and basically spend the day on the golf course, that is absolutely fine. We're only interested in the results. And what was interesting for the 6-week period, what we found was that the performance levels for that particular team increased. And one of the main takeaways was the quality of the interviews they were setting up increased. So whereas in the past people would be inclined to maybe set up an interview for a $35,000-$40,000 level candidate, what was happening is they were basically going further up the food chain and setting up interviews that would ultimately bring bigger fees. So the interviews were getting set up for 60K base level candidates or 70 or 80. So they tended to get the same number of interviews as they were doing pre-experiment, but the quality of the interviews and the value of the deals that would come in on the back of that was increased. So that the quality of the work, they were taking things more seriously in terms of what am I trying to achieve here? What am I trying to do, as opposed to getting another interview on the board?

Yeah, because they were the only things— it was outcome-based, right? They were the only things that was their north star, what they was aiming for.

Yeah, correct. And what we looked at in the past, you know, we had looked at something a few years previous where, you know, you'd sometimes see somebody, oh, you know, I've arranged 6 interviews this week, and they might be super junior opportunities on not so great fees. And even if you did get, you know, it wouldn't really kind of, you know, move the dial and get you where you wanted to be. Whereas it was a bit like, you know, getting that number on the board isn't as important. It's the profit, it's the revenue, it's the outputs, it's the end game they're thinking about. So they became that bit more organized and that bit more disciplined And I remember at the time, you know, a couple of the girls who were within that program, they were basically doing a gym class together at 6 o'clock in the morning, you get them at 5 o'clock in the morning, doing a gym class, being super energized, and then cracking on through the work. And then they'd have like all evening to chill out and relax and socialize, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, their mental health improved, their productivity improved, their efficiency improved. It got to a stage when we then did, we looked at the results and we kind of thought, right, we're going to roll this out across the whole business. That's where it went a little bit wrong.

Because I think that's what you said is, that's what people are going to be thinking about now, right? So what are we going to be rolling out across the business? I think this is what, so that's great context and yeah, that's really interesting. So yeah, please do share how it then went when you started to try to get more people involved.

I think because we thought we've had a team do it and it's worked really well, we kind of thought what we don't want to do is pick and choose who we give this project to because that would have seemed kind of maybe at the time it seemed unfair and it was— these guys were so positive about their experience and they were coming into the office then absolutely glowing and buzzing and super successful and this is amazing, that there could have been a bit of jealousy if other people didn't get to participate. So what we basically said was, right, this is the same for everybody. Now, where we got things a little bit wrong is people who had been in the business 3, 4, 5, 6 months, who had maybe graduated from university 12 months earlier, they weren't ready for that amount of freedom and that amount of flexibility. And everybody had, you know, a plan, you know, yeah, you know, I'm gonna start work a little bit later, but I'm gonna work into the evenings. And that was great, you know, on paper, but in practice it was, you know, you start a bit, a little bit later and you finish on time and you don't catch up on the work you didn't do. And, you know, people would say, yeah, you know, I'm gonna pop into the office on a Tuesday, but then it's suddenly raining and then they don't. We were having people kind of ringing us up saying, oh yeah, I'm going to be calling in later and I'm going to be doing this. I'm going to— why are you telling us?

Yeah.

They couldn't understand the whole kind of flexible nature of things.

So people were like reporting in and, you know, I just want to tell you what I'm doing. Yes, felt like they had to let you know that they're working.

Yeah, and it's like, well, that's cool, but we don't need that. And, you know, what we're interested in is what you've achieved on a Friday. The way we played it, we said, look, you've got to be in on a Monday morning to get your kind of morning meetings done and your plan and your strategy. And you've got to be in Friday afternoon. Between those times, you know, you do what you want and where you want to do it. And if you want to work in a Costa or a Starbucks, that's cool too. But what was happening then is people weren't getting through the work. And it tended to be the more junior people.

Yeah.

They weren't getting through the work. They were then kind of coming up with excuses. And, yeah, you know, I would have done that, but this happened and that happened. And it was basically, in many respects, they couldn't be trusted. But as far as I'm concerned, it's a bit like, you know, when you go from school and college to university, you know, people made that transition and then suddenly Very often there's not a register.

Yeah, no, yeah, you're right. It's a good comparison.

So there's no register, you know, there's no kind of roll call, you know, there's no kind of, you know, checking in and doing this and that. And what you find is some people go into that environment at uni and absolutely excel, and they love the freedom and they love the flexibility and they love the idea of managing their own time. Other people don't go into any lectures bail out after 3 months, and it was just too much for them. So I think what we realize is that, you know, if we were to do, run the project again, and, you know, I think there's a good chance we will, we would put certain parameters in place. And, you know, for certain people who've got to a certain grade in the business, maybe they can be afforded the flexibility.

Yeah.

And the trust. But if you haven't got to a certain point in your career whereby you can physically do these metrics, you know, in a normal environment, then that was the difficulty. You know, people who had struggled maybe to do 4 interviews a week in normal conditions, asking them to do it working from home without a manager on tap or a director on tap to kind of answer questions. Was probably too big an ask. So we put too much trust, too much responsibility into inexperienced people.

And how long was that period, John?

Yeah, so we ran that for another 8 weeks.

8 weeks, okay.

And the interesting thing is, you know, we didn't lose money, you know, it didn't kind of have a massive impact in a positive way or a negative way. However, we were getting people come back to us saying, we gradually saw more people spending more time in the office.

In the office.

And we had even like managers saying, look, you know, I kind of, you know, if you would have told me kind of 3 months ago I was going to get this opportunity, I would have thought it was actually amazing. It's not as good in practice as it sounds on paper. And I think it'll be the same now, you know, the people who've been working from home for 3 months who thought working from home was the holy grail, are now kind of thinking, you know what, it's been fine and I've done okay, but getting into the office 2, 3 days a week sounds a lot better as a plan for me. And it's a bit like for yourself, Hishem, you've been working from home for the last couple of months and then suddenly, I've seen stuff on LinkedIn, you seem to be more energised and more positive and more— more enjoying life, the fact you're actually getting into your office in London now on a daily basis?

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I think, yeah, I think all I'd probably add, the caveat to that, John, I'd say is that, and a few people have said this to me and it's completely right, is that working from home now isn't working from home like before this, do you get what I mean? I think that's a real important factor to highlight, isn't it? And that's why I think that's what's gonna— that's gonna be the interesting part as things change and as things get to, quote unquote, back to normal. I think, what does the actual future of a normal typical recruitment recruiter week look like? But I guess just to round that off then, John, what were the—

I guess what were the—

just to wrap that up, what were the key learnings then of that sort of initial 4 to 6 week period of the initial team and then the 8 weeks of everyone, what were the key learnings? So clearly it was about actually people that maybe hadn't had as much experience found it way more difficult. But what were the key learnings from Project Freedom?

I think the key learnings, and then so if you look at the kind of the initial pilot experiment with 5 or 6 people.

Yeah.

To then doing it en masse, what we found in many respects is the pilot that we did was done with more experienced, more mature, more recruitment savvy individuals. So in hindsight, because they wanted it to work, it was always going to work. And so, you know, our learnings were, right, if we were to kind of go for a similar experiment again, to look at a kind of a blended team where you've got an experienced person with a rookie, with a junior, and have, you know, our team, our EMEA team at the time, were one of our strongest teams. And so in hindsight, we could have used a kind of an average team with a better collection of people. But I think our biggest kind of learnings from it was that people need to understand, you know, you can't assume that every individual is like you.

Yeah.

They totally get what an output-based kind of scenario looks like. So I thought it was pretty clear that, look, you know, if the goal and the objective is to register 4 candidates, arrange 4 interviews, and get, you know, a deal to 2 deals a month, for me, if I would have been told that 25 years ago when I got into recruitment, I would have thought that's pretty easy, that's pretty basic, right? I know what I need to do. I will crack on. For some people, there wasn't the straight edges and the clarity that they really understood that. So what we didn't put in place was what they were responsible for and what the metrics would look like to support for interviews.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, so what we didn't put it, we didn't want, you know, strict KPIs, but what we could have put in place would be more kind of the expectation is you will spend X hours doing this and you will make that many calls and you will do this many LinkedIn updates and you will do— so I think what we didn't put in place is, you know, what are our— what you're responsible for as an individual and what are the repercussions if you don't do that. So We had guys not doing it week 1 and not doing it week 2, and we hadn't really empowered our billing managers to basically say, right, what are you going to do when they don't do it? So we weren't having the radical candour and the difficult conversations and just say, look, we've laid this out, this is what you need to do, why aren't you doing it? What help do you need? What support do you need? So we had people kind of failing and instead of them thinking, right, I've got to— so if it was me, I would have thought, right, okay, look, I've not done my numbers, I need to work some extra hours now to get to my 4 interviews. They were just thinking, well, it's Friday, you know, I'm not doing it, you know, let's, you know, mañana, mañana, mañana, let's give it a go again next week.

So yeah, no, I think— sorry, was you going to say something else?

Yeah, I was going to say you know, you need the repercussions in place for what happens if you don't do it. So if you're going to go results orientated, like for example, you know, if I give you, you know, the analogy of a football team, you know, football's back on as of Wednesday and you've got Man United-Southampton tonight. But what's interesting is let's say you've got to halftime and you've had a bit of a stinker, your manager sends you out and he basically says, look, you've got 15 minutes to nail this or you're going to get hauled off. You know where you stand and you will either do it or you'll be substituted at the 60-minute mark. And I think if you've got quite inexperienced billing managers and it was new to them as well, we hadn't really explained— because the pilot had worked so well, we just assumed that everybody's going to be really into this and everybody's going to kind of make it work. What we didn't realise was that the communication between consultant, billing manager, billing manager, director/owner wasn't as connected as it needed to be to get a programme like this up and running.

Yeah, I think that's really interesting, John. I think it's exactly that, isn't it? So it's clearly, I think you hear a lot of people sort of saying online about sort of, look, we need to be more outcome-based, more results-orientated. Don't need to hit people with the KPI stick. But I think it's what you just said. It's like, yeah, we need to know what success looks like. But, and then actually what would have really helped our guys and will help people is just saying, so this is, these are the results that you need, but just to give you an idea of typically what someone has done in the past to get them that or help them achieve that is this, this, this, and this. And then the final bit, which you've just said is then, and by the way, these are the sort of minimum standards. We require. As I said, this is outcome. John, this is sort of the ultimate goal. However, we know that typically the formula to help you achieve that is these types of numbers, and the minimum standard is this, unless you're communicating with me saying, hey John, I know I haven't called as many people, whatever, but actually this is what's— to get what I mean. So I think it's what you said, right? It's actually, there's got to be some sort of goals or expectations in place. So by the way, this is the formula to get those outcomes that you can aim for. You don't have to get it exactly, but typically this is what you're looking at and what to expect. And then from a management perspective, it's then like, okay, well, by the way, this is the line where this is the minimum standard of output or effort or whatever it is that you're measuring that we need from you. Um, okay. That, that, that's really interesting. So I guess with this sort of insight and what we're talking about, like, what's your mindset towards returning to work and the sort of future of the Finley James workplace and today? Because I think it's going to be different, right? So I've been to your office, you've got quite a bit of space, which I'm sure helps with sort of making your workplace safe. But what's your mindset towards bringing people back to work? What are you thinking about?

Yeah, so I mean, we've been having discussions over the last couple of weeks on this, and what we want to do is— we've got, let's say, out of 45 people, we've got 30 people on furlough at the moment.

Okay.

What we wanted to do was make sure that everybody's communicated with effectively and everybody knows where they stand. So what's good now is everybody knows what date they return to the business.

And god, that helps, I'll tell you that much.

So we've got some people coming back July 1st, some people coming back August 1st, some people coming back September 1st, but they know what the plan is. And what we've got then is a combination of some people are going to be coming back in July full-time to complement the people we've still got on the pitch now, Some people are coming back 3 days a week, and I put something out on LinkedIn yesterday, you know, how are you going to manage 3 days a week? I'm really intrigued as to whether, you know, some people it may well favor a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Other people may well favor, you know, an all-day Monday, 4 half days, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday morning. So we're going to basically look at a bespoke solution for everybody and kind of what suits the individual based on their circumstances. Now, we imagine that if somebody, for example, up in Manchester is working 3 days and they're working Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, you know, the likelihood is 2 of those days of the 3 will be in the office, 1 will be from home. Now, if, for example, people in London don't want to jump on a tube and they're working 3 days or they're working 5 half days, the likelihood at the moment is they'll do that from home. So what we're looking at, Hishem, is a bespoke solution for each and every person within the business that we can support. And so if they want to be in the office, they can be in the office. If they want to work predominantly from home, they can work predominantly from home. But what we are going to make, make sure we do is get those tangibles in place whereby, you know, if you are working 3 days a week, you know, we need These are the expectations. Yeah, these are the expectations in terms of candidates registered, new job specs taken, you know, if you're a 180 client-based individual, interviews arranged. Because what we've found in the last 3 months is our numbers in terms of, you know, interviews arranged per person, the people who are still on the pitch have actually increased. Okay, so what we found is, you know, the ability to arrange interviews hasn't been diminished through COVID. So yes, there's less jobs, but the jobs that we have got are as committed, if not more committed, than the ones we had pre-COVID. So, you know, people that you might have met within our business, you know, people like Rihanna Sarsens, has actually arranged more interviews on a weekly basis over the last 3 months than she was doing pre-COVID. And she's working from home and not having to travel into London from Hemel every day and things like that. So, you know, we're basically seeing it get done during COVID and so we don't anticipate individuals coming back doing 3 days a week. It's not going to be a case whereby if they're not arranging interviews, we're going to have a problem.

Yeah, okay. And then just quickly, sorry, maybe I didn't understand this right, but the free— so is— are you talking about part-time furlough there? Is that correct?

Yeah. Okay. So what we want to do is still manage our overhead.

Yeah.

And so, you know, if we've managed to, let's say, reduce our overhead by 50%, you know, over the last 3 months, you know, we've got a number now that's more achievable and doable than it would have been pre-COVID. So our philosophy is, you know, that overhead will increase to some extent in July. It will further increase in August, it will further increase in September.

We're trying to make incremental.

It'll be incremental and we're managing that workflow and even like we've had people come back into the business who are working full-time at the moment who may well only be working 2.5, 3 days a week in July and we'll play it by the week. If somebody has a real tough week and they're really struggling and then the following week they'd be more comfortable only working 2 or 3 days, we'll play that by ear. And it's managing the overhead and managing the capacity.

Yeah. So very simply then, for people listening, because a lot of people might be getting this communicated to them or thinking about this, is so basically, very simply, is you— so the sort of next part of this scheme is that you can bring people back on part-time to do part-time hours that you pay for. That you pay out of the business, and then the other part there to top up for them to get their full-time wage would be then compensated by the government.

Yeah, so the way we see it, and hopefully I've got this right, embarrassing if I haven't, is that if somebody, for example, is working 3 days a week, then our understanding is that they'll get the 80% from the government for the 2 days, and they'll get the 100% from Philly James for the 3 days. So they will end up with 92% of their normal salary.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And then, you know, if you're working 2 days, it'd be 88%. If it was 4 days, 96%. So that's our reading of it. But what we're hopeful— what we have to be considerate of is that if you've been on furlough since, let's say, April 1st, and you've done April, May, June, July, you come back August. The transition from going from doing no work to—

Oh my God.

You know, is going to be horrendous. It's a bit like, you know, when you leave uni and you get your first gig or your first recruitment job. You're absolutely— day 4, you're exhausted.

Yeah.

So, you know, you were in recruitment, it will have been the same thing. It's like, oh my God, you know, there is so much to take on. All you do is sleep and recruit. So we think for those guys, you know, getting them in 3 days so they gradually kind of wean off furlough is the way. But I think the key thing, even now, you know, we've got some of our top billers who are on furlough because, you know, they weren't in the right kind of mental place to be cracking on with work at the moment. So we wanted to support everybody's mental health. And the ones we have on the pitch want to be on the pitch and want to be cracking on and want to be working. And the ones who want to still be on furlough are on furlough. So we acknowledge that there's a lot of talk and a lot of noise on LinkedIn about, you know, people who are on furlough who don't want to be on furlough and people who are in work who don't want to be in work. We don't have that. You know, we basically have a balance whereby the guys, If you want to be on the pitch, you're on the pitch. The guys who don't want to be on the pitch now or don't want to be on the pitch full-time come July won't be on the pitch full-time.

Yeah. Okay. So what I was keen to just get your thoughts on, John, so when we're talking about, because this is where I think a lot of people will be thinking about and relate, they might know that come July that they're going to be working 3 days a week, etc. So just quickly, like how much, you know, you said that around the sort of bespoke 'John, you're back 3 days a week,' and if you tell me, like, how— like, I guess what I want to know from you is, like, how much of it have you put it in, like, the ball in their court, if you get what I mean? Like, has it really been led by, 'Hey, John, look, like, you told us that you can come back 3 days—

we've agreed it's 3 days a week, that's what you communicated,' and then have you said, 'How do you want to do it?' Yeah, the ball's totally in their court because what I realize is Having somebody do something they don't want to do is a waste of time. It doesn't work. I've got 20-year-old children who are second year at uni, and if they don't want to do something, they don't do it. Yeah, and I waste a lot of energy and a lot of time trying to encourage them to do things they don't want to do, and it wastes my time. So what I realize is that if you put the ball in the individual's court, then they're empowered, they're in control, and they take responsibility for their career and their job and their diary and their time. And so what I'm hoping is that if somebody's only working 3 days a week, they really then kick hard at that, and it may well be they're working what, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, They can have a great weekend, they can have a great Friday, great month, but when they're on, they're on, and they basically have to make the absolute maximum out of those 3 days. But that's what that individual wants to do. But I think if I look at, for example, my guys in America, you know, Gaz in San Francisco works, you know, at the moment he's in lockdown on his own, and he's the only guy in San Francisco at the moment. Now His time difference is 8 hours after me, so he could be out and about getting takeaway beers every afternoon. I wouldn't know because, you know, I'm asleep. But, you know, you trust Gads to get on with the work because he's building a business out there. The same with Nick in New York, you know, I don't run around, you know, and I need to do 3 Zoom calls a day with you guys so I can see that you're actually inside. Are not out on a bike ride with your mates. It's all on trust, but I think the more trust you give people to come up with a plan and then giving them the parameters, which maybe we weren't so strong on 2 years ago, you know, making it their plan, you know, and then they can build their why around that and what they're looking to do and why they're looking to do it, I think works a lot better than us saying, look, you know, you're at this level, so we want you working 5 days a week. We want you in Manchester on a Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. People push back on that. And I think, you know, Gen Z, you know, they don't like that.

So just, um, so on the— obviously, which is one of the sort of key learnings then. So why don't you just talk a bit about that 3-day week, those 3 days, like what are the expectations? And so what, firstly, so what are the outcomes? So I think, I think, um, Rhiannon said this on the live podcast webinar, which I thought was great, was sort of the goals and outcomes that she's aiming for, or the things that she can control. Yeah, right. So, which I absolutely love that, which is booking an interview, which is registering candidates, blah blah blah. So I guess what it'd be good to just— if you were to just break down sort of the outcomes that you've set out for someone working 3 days, and then also then this sort of, as you were saying, the boundaries and the expectations.

Yeah, I, I would say in terms of— I mean, this is still a work in progress. We're getting all this in place, uh, you know, pre-July 1st. And James, my R&D, you know, he'll have, you know, input on this, as will Sarah. So I would envisage that if somebody's working 3 days, then we would be looking at them arranging a minimum of 2 interviews a week. We would be looking at them registering a minimum of a candidate a day that, you know, they're looking to take to market. So we would imagine based on our kind of 5-day stats and bringing them, you know, reining them in a little bit, that if somebody was registering 3 candidates, setting up 2 interviews, getting, you know, at least one of those to a latter stage end of a process, we would also then look at the social side. So are they basically posting, you know, a minimum of, you know, 3 updates a week on LinkedIn? Are they writing and getting out an ad and, you know, pushing that on? So there would be metrics around not so much call time and not so much about call numbers, but controlling the controllables are, you know, you can control registering 3 candidates. So if I said to you, Hishem, and you've not done recruitment for a few years, basically said, right, I'll tell you what, I'll give you a grand Next week, if you register 3 candidates, I'd imagine you'd probably do it.

Yeah, you back yourself to do that.

Yeah. So, you know, you'll find them from somewhere and, you know, the candidates, you know, candidates are out there at the moment with, you know, these difficult situations. So, you know, the ones that you shouldn't be failing on is registering candidates. You can't always control how many of those candidates get interviews, but over a monthly basis, if somebody was working 3 days a week, whether that's full days, half days, however they're going to craft it, we would anticipate a minimum of 12 registrations and 8 interviews confirmed and arranged. And then a number of, you know, interactions on social so that they're not just liking and sharing, but they're actually coming up with some, you know, data-related posts or something interesting about their market, their industry, themselves, something.

And then are they— then those things that you're talking about there, are they then the minimum expectations then? Like, are they the sort of boundaries of like, this is what we expect when you're working this. If you're not achieving these things, then let's have a conversation as to why and if there's anything that we need to talk about.

Yeah, and even if I think back to, you know, the start of the whole COVID thing, you know, we had some people on the pitch who, yeah, you know, I want to work, I want to do this, and yeah, I want to crack on. Who didn't meet those expectations in April. And so we then had conversation, just say, right, okay, so you didn't do it April, you know, how confident are you of achieving that in May? And if the answer was, you know, not so much, then it may be an idea to take some time to kind of reflect and kind of take some time out and maybe do some further thing. But You know, if people would have come to us and said, no, no, I know I didn't do it, but I will do that and I will achieve that next one, they would have stayed on the pitch. Some of them didn't, and they're on furlough, and you know, they've come back since or they're coming back in July. So those are the kind of minimum expectations. And to be fair, I've been very open and upfront, and I've basically said, look, as you come back in off furlough, everybody within Philly James is going to get a chance. To prove themselves, whether you've been in the business 2 months or 10 years. But in the new world, as we get back, if you can't arrange interviews and if you can't actually do the minimum standards, it's unlikely there will be a Finlay James future for you. Yeah, I've been very open and, you know, we've done town halls having that conversation. So I don't want anybody to come back in August, not arrange an interview and not be prepared for a difficult conversation.

Yeah, I think what I love about that, John, and I think it's really evident of sort of what you do online, you've been very open with sort of how your business is doing and stuff like that, which I think is amazing, by the way. I think what's great about that is that I think there'll be huge, huge amounts of people on furlough right now that are really uncertain of the future of their job.

Yeah, right.

And I think what I love about that is that you're communicating that, look guys, these are the minimum standards, um, which by the way you're in control of. Um, so when you do come back on the pitch, these are the expectations that again you are in control of. And if we're not hitting these sort of things there, there's going to be a potential difficult conversation and you're letting people know. But I think what I love about that is one, you're communicating it, and two it's in their hands, do you know what I mean? Which I think is the most important thing and also empowering to know and that again, as you said, people to survive this and recruiters of the future have to be responsible, they have to be accountable for what they need to do to hit the outcomes that they need to.

But I do think there's a bit of a disconnect there, Hishem, in that If I look at, you know, there's millions of people out on furlough, I do think there's certain people who, because their financial position hasn't deteriorated too badly, you know, they basically were meant to be going on holiday, they've had the holiday money back, they're meant to be going to festivals, they've had the festival money back, they were going to be buying clothes for holiday, they're not going on holiday, suddenly, you know, they've got more cash. So my concern for the market a little bit, and I think we've got to be all aware of this, is that I think some people think they're gonna go back into my business or any other recruitment business August 1st, September 1st, and crack on as normal. If they don't up their game and kind of basically work that bit harder, that bit smarter, and they're that bit more organised and disciplined, then they're going to be out of work, and that's across the board. And whether people are mentally preparing themselves for August 1st, September 1st, I'm not so sure.

That's another story, yeah.

Yeah, so I think, you know, if there's training out there, if there's development opportunities, people need to be taking that because what I see is Coming back in August 1st, July 1st, whatever, I see the playing field absolutely leveled. So all those guys who had 20, 30 vacancies haven't got any. So they're starting from scratch. Are they mentally prepared for that? Maybe not. The guys who were earning the $60,000, $80,000, $100,000 because they had a great client book, they may not have any more. Are they prepared to be earning half as much? For doing the same work? Probably not. So I think, you know, business owners, because, you know, they've been in it, living it, eating and breathing it for the last kind of 3 months, they've adopted and they've changed and they've got, you know, I class Finlay James now, you know, close to our 17th birthday as a startup. And that's what I'm running at the moment. I'm comfortable with it. James, Sarah, we're comfortable with it. But can the individuals who've not been in the eye of the storm make that transition to the whole thing's changed? Or are they going to feel sorry for themselves and be living in the past? And, you know, I used to be a contender. And that's where it's going to be tricky. And I see a lot of people, maybe on the bigger basics, who get overtaken by the, you know, the hungry people who love the idea that it's back to the start. You know, nobody's got a head start. You know, nobody's kind of, you know, 20 paces ahead of them because they've got 4 or 5 clients. It's kind of, you know, let's go and let's see who's got the energy and the hustle to outwork sometimes the more experienced people.

Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting for sure. I think I did— I shared a post about this today because I think it's definitely difficult. I think you definitely can't paint everyone with the same brush who are on furlough because, I mean, my girlfriend's been on— she's an office manager for a management consultancy and she's been on furlough from the very beginning. And I think I'm sure you've heard it, just the remark of, oh, I'd love to be on furlough, be like being on holiday, get paid to do it, right? And I just couldn't disagree with that more. Personally, just from my own perspective of my girlfriend being on an absolute emotional rollercoaster, and I think there's going to be a balance there, John, where yes, you do need to, you do need to keep your head in the game and prepare sort of yourself as best as you can for what's to come. But at the same time, there's also getting through the days on furlough, which is also a challenge, you know what I mean? So I think, I think, yeah, I think, I think you've got, there's just a bit of a balance there. And I think I do empathize with anyone that if they've been on furlough, been on the bench for that long, that they will be lacking a lot of motivation by this point and finding it difficult. And I think, yeah, but and then there's at the same time, if you are getting coming back on the pitch, then you've got to try and give yourself the best possible chance of understanding what to expect. And be prepared for it, otherwise you could be in an even difficult position where you might not have a job.

Yeah, I think that's the case, and I think the furlough thing, I mean, Sarah's on, you know, I'm on the pitch, Sarah's kind of on the bench at the moment, and so, you know, we, and even my children, you know, it's like, oh, you know, what's it like to be on furlough moment, stuff like that, and, you know, Sarah's kept busy and kind of, you know, got through a bunch of stuff, and she's now looking to, you know, prepare for people coming back into the business in July, but We're aware that every individual is different, but I did a post, I think on Facebook, a couple of months ago, and what I said was, you know, if you are on furlough, yeah, enjoy the time, use the time, you know, look to develop, look to do stuff you've never done before, but whatever you do, don't waste it. Because I think the mental health aspect of getting to the end of furlough, and you've gone through a few months, and you've done nothing and you've just wallowed in self-pity in bed every day, that's no good. So what I kind of said is even if you chose an hour a day to learn, read, improve, I found myself doing that. So, you know, and I've already put it on LinkedIn, but stuff that you've been doing, I must have watched 20, 30 podcasts between yourself, Sean, Doulter, the TRN stuff. And you know, I'm getting my strategy and I'm learning and I'm developing from the stuff I learn from listening to you interview other people. And you know, that's important for me. But you know, that's also an option for guys on furlough that I think, you know, sometimes I think there might be a little bit, you know, is it, you know, Is it cool not to engage? And, you know, I saw a post yesterday from somebody saying, you know, clients and companies aren't engaging with their workforce. And if that's the case, that's really bad and that's poor form. And we are doing that, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that if you're a recruiter and you've been on furlough for 2 or 3 months, it might be worth putting a call into your MD or your CEO or your sales director and say, look, I'm coming back in August, you know, what kind of stuff should I be doing now, John or James?

Yeah, it's a great thing to do, great thing to do.

You know, what I've seen is, you know, I can spot the guys who are going to come back and hit it hard day one from what I see on LinkedIn, and I can spot the guys who are maybe going to be slower to get back up to speed. And so you've got to take responsibility for yourself. So I think it's a bit like, you know, kids going to uni or, you know, thinking about that first day in a new job. You know, you see the guys, you know, they bought the pencil case, you know, they've got the books, you know, they've underlined everything, the back of the books are back, they're ready to go. And you see the other guys who kind of look like they need another week off. You know, so I think, you know, people need to set, you know, the responsibilities on the companies to engage and communicate. But if you're not being communicated to, pick the phone up. Yeah, yeah.

Use your initiative.

And get a Zoom call in the diary with your boss and say, right, okay, I know you're busy. When can we work? When can we talk to thrash out a plan so I'm ahead of the game day one?

Yeah, um, so look, but as we come to the end of this, just, just a couple of things just before we finish, John. Um, so the first thing that I'm just interested— talking a bit about it there, like, what's your sort of— I know it'll be like a case-by-case basis, but sort of how— what's the sort of time frame? I'm trying to sort of ask you around, if I'm coming back 3 days a week and there is going to be an element of like working out what's working for me, what isn't. Like, I don't know, have you put things in place where it's like, look, on a weekly basis we'll say, how, what are you finding difficult? What's the other, I guess, how long are you get roughly going to give people to sort of work out if they should be on the pitch? Do you get what I mean? Because I think that's, that's going to be difficult. So I guess, is there a sort of buffer period there, or are you making sure that everyone knows that they need to communicate what they're finding hard what's working for them, what isn't, to help you understand if they should be staying on the pitch besides the minimum expectations and stuff like that?

For me, a lot of it is mindset and, you know, my whole philosophy on individuals, and this was the case early on in first. So if I go back to the end of March, you know, we let some people, some very inexperienced people, some people who had just joined us within a matter of 2 or 3 weeks. Let's say we had a group of about 5 people who kind of came into that kind of formula. Now, of those 5 people, 2 stayed in the business and 3 went. Now, of the 3 that went, you know, what, 1 or 2 of them were more experienced than the guys who stayed, but it was mindset. And so my whole philosophy on, I suppose, business life per se is If people have got a growth mindset and they're going to try, then we will find a way to ensure they can succeed within Finlay James and within recruitment. If people have got a fixed mindset and they're not going to try, I'm not going to try.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not going to waste my time or the time of my billing managers on people who can't be bothered. Yeah, so you've heard me talk about this before. We, we talk about will and skill. So if somebody's got the will, we can develop the skill and we can get them where they need to be. If somebody's got the skill but they haven't got the will, well, we're doomed anyway. So to answer your question, I would imagine, you know, 1 to 3 months from somebody returning to the business If within that kind of 4 to 12 week period, they haven't shown they've got the will, the hustle, the drive, the positive mindset to be able to kind of achieve in the new world, then I'm not going to basically kind of put my hand in my pocket forever on somebody who isn't giving back. So we need to see a response and we need to see positivity. Now, the interesting thing is, Sean, we don't need to see results straight away, but we need to see the mentality and the—

Yes, the will. Yeah, as you said.

If people are coming in feeling sorry for themselves and basically lowering the mood in the office and basically bringing everybody down because it's tough and it's hard, then they become a liability. And you know, from August, September onwards, people like me aren't going to be able to afford to have huge liabilities sat on their payroll.

Yeah, and then look, final thing then, John, sort of knowing what you know through the things in the past, the Project Freedom, what you've been learning and the conversations you've been having, what would be, I guess, to people, what would be firstly your advice for recruiters that are returning to work? I think you've touched on a few things, but just to sort of wrap it up, if I'm returning to work July 1st or plan to, what would be your advice for people returning to work firstly?

Yeah, I think to answer that one, I would basically say that they need to, you know, have a conversation with their line manager, their billing manager, and it's right, okay, what do you expect from me and what do you need from me? And what do I need to produce and perform on a weekly/monthly basis to ensure that I'm still in this business, Jan, too? So I think having that open conversation with your boss so you know where you stand. So what you don't want is, you don't want surprises where individuals are suddenly getting kicked out of businesses and they didn't see it coming. So I think openness and transparency between the employee and their billing manager is crucial. So I think if the individual, whether it's within Philly James or any other recruitment company out there, you know, they need to know what's expected so it doesn't come as a shock and it doesn't come as a surprise. I think, yeah, that's my—

that's great advice, great advice. It's like Basic recruitment, isn't it? Ask a question you don't want to hear the answer to. And like, you want to— it's exactly that. I absolutely love that. And the great thing about that, anyone listening, is you're in control of that. Like, you decide if you want to get on the phone to John, your boss, or whatever, and say, hey, obviously really excited to come back. Look, I really want to make sure I understand what the goalposts are. Yeah, love that.

Then final thing, just as an anecdote, uh, before your final thing, actually, is when we did our town hall meetings, and we've done 3 now, we gave everybody the opportunity to send through questions prior to a live call with the whole business. And we had kind of like, you know, am I going to get sacked? Are you going to make redundancies? How are you job— there was a load of like quite interesting questions. And my answer to the one on, you know, are you going to get sacked, and just said that I'm not going to decide that, you decide whether you're going to get sacked. Because no business owner is going to sack an asset who's going to be good for your business in the short, medium, or long term. You'll find another way to do things. And what you do is, even when people are making changes, redundancies, getting rid of people, you don't get rid of your assets, you get rid of your liabilities. So if you've got a pile of stocks, You don't get rid of the ones that are rising in value and doing really, really well. You dump the ones that are going to be a liability. So I say to every recruiter out there, if you do what's expected of you and you show hustle and drive and the right kind of mentality and you ask questions and you prepare sometimes for the difficult conversations and the difficult feedback, you'll be absolutely fine. If you come in half-assed and you don't really care and you're expecting to be sacked anyway, you know what, you're probably gonna get sacked.

Yeah, and then the final thing before we finish is just sort of your, I guess, thoughts or advice for recruitment business owners that are sort of going through that process of, okay, what does returning to work look like for my team? How should I structure it? How should I roll this out? I guess any sort of anecdotes there or things that you'd share, because maybe not everyone has access to the TRM membership or has been listening to what you've been listening to. I guess what should people be thinking about or have in mind when thinking about communicating and getting their team employees back into work?

Yeah, a couple of things there. And what's good is through the TRM, the networks and things like that, I've got a lot of mates who run similar size companies to myself. I pinch their ideas, they pinch my ideas, and we share, which is great. But I think there's a little bit of over-communication. So I think there'll be leaders and there'll be managers who are spending more time talking to their staff, and it's more to make them feel better that, oh, I'm contributing, I'm doing something. But what's happening there is, you know, that's less time that's being spent with individuals talking to clients and candidates. So I think, you know, over-communication and, you know, 27 Zoom calls a week to let me know what you've done in the last hour, I think is a waste of time. I think give people space. And, you know, I've certainly done it with our MD. I've basically said, look, you know, you're running the show. You know, you basically come to me if you're stuck and if you've got, you know, a question or a situation that you need some help with, but apart from that, get on with it. And that's the same with the billing managers. Have your meeting in the morning, get on with it, and then kind of catch up in the evening. But there's, I think there's overcommunication, and I think there's a little bit too much of like, all the leaders in the office talking about it, whereas I think you're better off kind of, basically having your conversations and then getting out of the meeting room and getting on with it. So more doing and less talking about it, I think, is the key. And be careful not to over-communicate, because if people are working half days, say, in August or July, and you're spending 45 minutes in meetings with them, you know, you're leaving 2.5, 3 hours to actually get the graft done, and you're going to be eating into that. So more time talking to candidates, clients, as opposed to ourselves, I think is going to be important.

Nice. Look, John, really enjoyed that. Confident a lot of people listening would sort of get some really interesting things in there. Loads of stuff on there, but anyone that is listening, I think, as John said, if you're returning to work, I think really try and use your initiative and do everything you can to not have any horrible surprises, which obviously no one wants to to have, right? So look, John, really appreciate you jumping on doing this. Thanks a lot and keep doing what you're doing.

Okay. Thanks a lot. See you guys.