Jon Woolley - A 360 view of what it’s like to recruit in the USA

John, welcome to the podcast.

Pleasure to be here.

Really excited for this. This is a sort of another installment of, uh, sitting down with, uh, people, recruiters that have sort of gone on a journey over the last however sort of many years or months on taking their career, taking their skill set to the American market. So really excited to sort of dive into the last 2 years where you've gone on that journey. But where we always like to start is, uh, the million-pound question. So I'd love to hear your take on what you believe are the common characteristics and traits of a modern-day successful recruiter, in your opinion.

Cool. Um, so I think there's loads of traits that make a good recruiter. Everyone is obviously always different. One of the big things that I like to pick up on with this is I don't believe that there's any difference in extroverts or introverts in, in recruitment. I think you can make it work with your skill set. I see curiosity as a real trait that I look for in people, the drive to understand everything about everyone and just being inquisitive about what's going on, what's out there. I really like to see people that are excited about what the future holds and how they can get to it. People that are driven, and that can be like an innate drive, a competitive drive, a reason to do this hard job outside of just coming here for the money. And people that are a hell of a networker, and that's huge in the market that I'm in, but I see it everywhere. Being able to network and talk to people, it's not innate in everyone, but it can definitely be trained and learned. And then finally, people with an entrepreneurial spirit, which we'll probably touch on later on.

Yeah, I like— it's definitely something that's come up more and more, but I would just really quickly love to— I, I love the curious piece. Like, I would say I'm someone that's really curious, and that's something that I looked for when I hired for my business, just because I feel like if you're someone that is curious, I don't know, there's just so many good things that come with that. So like, I guess what I wanted to ask you is, is that something that mainly comes with like the sort of natural curiosity, or is it something that you think can be cultivated?

I definitely think it can be cultivated. I'm a big believer in a lot of the traits that are good for a recruitment consultant can be trained, can be learned. Curiosity for me is just having that self-awareness to want to understand more, and also curiosity as well is about self-development and trying to dig into what can make things tick, I think it's so important.

No, yeah, not agreed. So obviously we're gonna sort of spend the next 40, 45 minutes talking about and unpacking this journey that you've been on, which you started in July 2020, right?

Right.

And obviously before that, like, you've obviously worked in recruitment for coming up to a decade, so obviously 8 years. So obviously prior to that had obviously, um, obviously you've been working for, for Vantage And you've been there for, yeah, as I said, 8 years. For the first 6, obviously focused on the UK markets. And then obviously from July 2020, you've been heading up and sort of focused on the US piece, particularly sort of East Coast. So I guess obviously we're going to unpack this, but just to sort of paint a picture of where you are today, what I've got down, and sort of let me know if I'm missing anything. But when we prepared for this, so it's been the last 2 years you're now going to be sort of a team of 7 people, um, and it's all permanent business that you've been doing. And as I said, yeah, you've focused on the East Coast of the US.

Yeah, that's, that's absolutely right.

And then what, what markets have you focused on? From the UK, it looked like you were doing sort of tech and engineering or different parts of that. What, what sort of markets and niches have you focused on?

The 6 years I've been in recruitment have, have all been around engineering, so that's, that's what we sort of started the business with, mostly focused around kind of automation process within life sciences.

Okay, cool. And then that's, that's the case in the East Coast as well, in the US?

Absolutely, yeah. With this quarter, we've now expanded into sort of tech, moving into, into different areas of the business, but our core has, has been engineering, and that, that's my previous experience.

Okay, cool. And just so I understand that, because obviously engineering is broad, like, I just want to understand. So like engineering in life sciences?

Yeah, correct. Like white collar, um, the guys that program the machinery that makes the drugs, right?

Got it. Okay, yeah, I just wanted to make sure I understand that because that helps me in this conversation. Uh, okay, cool. So when did sort of thinking about going to America, thinking about doing business in America get on your radar? Where does this sort of initial— where did this come from?

That's been a long time in the making, honestly. We've been talking about the US as a business for quite some time. Up until very recently, I had two sisters that lived there, one in Philadelphia, one in North Carolina. So in the background, that has probably been maybe 4 years. But it was really coming into sort of the planning stages. We started nailing down like ideal client types, candidate types, locations. And then during COVID I had the opportunity to put my hand up and say, yeah, I want to go and lead this out in the US.

Okay, obviously US is huge. So you said East Coast. What, like, how did you, obviously I'm assuming like this would be part of your research and market mapping and understanding of life sciences in your sector, but like what, how did you sort of go about identifying states that you wanted to focus on, or did you even decide to focus on states in the first place?

So I took it out to Boston initially, so in Massachusetts, huge pharma life sciences hub. Off the back of that, there are some other great hubs in the East Coast that we've started to develop out now, but Boston's got some really solid investment, huge biotech companies and investment in the area, so that was where we started.

That's where you started, okay, cool. So, talk to me a bit about then, and if it wasn't entirely concrete, then you can be honest, But like, what was the go-to-market strategy? Like, how did you think about no one is going to have a fucking clue who John is? I'm calling from where? You're based in Stafford, right?

Yeah, man.

Staffordshire. Yeah, so you're like, John calling from Staffordshire, going into Boston, huge market. Like, what was the strategy here? Like, the first 90 days, what did that look like? What was the plan for the first 90 days?

Cool. So as I say, like, the bigger picture of the go-to-market was to roll out the success that we've had over the last decade.

Yeah.

Vantage UK, take out to the US and Europe. The go-to-market for the US was to build our engineering business initially. It's my background, I like to think I know it well, and as we started in the middle of COVID a lot of the engineering businesses and the types of companies that would typically recruit for in engineering contracts in the UK, most of the staff was furloughed or business just wasn't quite there, so we we pivoted that into the life sciences sector, and it's been really successful for us. A lot of the work initially is like, as I call it, donkey work. So, you're developing your client profiles, your candidate profiles, working out the US sort of contractual side of the business, making sure you've got the right contacts within industry, and then it was sort of developing that database, growing out, who needs to be on there, because this was from scratch, completely cold. So it was networking around the ideal candidate profiles initially, building groups of like-minded engineers within communities and engaging with, with those guys and girls, finding out the real pain points within the industry, talking to those in more senior capacities but still within the same niche, and starting to develop it out from there to really understand what was going on in the Boston sort of biotech engineering sector, and that allowed me to, to take it to market with the hiring managers and senior stakeholders that were aligned with, with what we were going after.

Okay, so yeah, so basically what I took from that then is you did, you did the smart thing by just taking a bit of a step, and I'm sure it can evolve, right? And you like definitely just continue to learn really what is the ideal customer profile, ideal candidate profile. But to start, you thought about that in terms of, yeah, the types of people you want to be speaking to, the types of companies that you can help. So you did that, understood that. And then what I got from that then is you just really doubled down on speaking to people, building relationships, being curious, back to that, finding out what, yeah, what are the sort of nuances and challenges of, of being in that, working in that sector in Boston. Could you, would you mind just sharing with us, like, I understand that, but like What did you lead with and what did those actual first conversations actually look like? Do you know what I mean? Were they happening on LinkedIn? Like, was it quite easy to get on the phone to people? And then, like, what is it that you led with? Was it like, hey, look, John, I am new to the Boston area. This is what I'm looking to do. This is our sort of grander vision. These are some of the things that I'm hoping that you might be able to help me with. I'd love to speak— like, what did those initial conversations look like?

Yeah, exactly that. It was mostly networking conversations around, hey look, this is why I'm credible. I've been doing this for 6 years in the UK and Europe. I have built some relationships with pharma companies in the EU. I understand what you do at a granular level. I just don't know the market so well. I was open with it, like, I'm coming to market, I'm coming to help you guys. But it was more so about the networking, like, what can I do to support you, how can I help you find your next position, etc., etc.

Yeah, okay. And people, people quite receptive to that?

Yeah, fine. Um, so you asked about LinkedIn. Conversations start on LinkedIn typically, but you need to move them to the phone. Um, that's where the relationship is built. You engage initially on LinkedIn and you move it forward quickly.

And like, what, how, like, again, what, what did that, what did it, why would they get on the phone with you? Like, what was you saying? It was like, I'd love, it'd be great if we could network, I'm looking to build my net, like, why would they, if you didn't have a job or anything, why would they give you time?

Culturally, like, when we're engaging with people in the US, they are a lot more open from, from my experience to just having networking conversations if you're in the space and they view your profile, you look like a credible person, they're open to having that conversation, even if it's not for an immediate need. That's certainly what I found in the early days. Obviously now we can talk about vacancies, we can talk about retainers and things like that. But yeah, absolutely. It was, it was open with being a networking conversation and this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm trying to achieve.

Now, I think the subtle thing that I'm picking up on is you, you called these networking conversations. I quite like that. So, okay, so two things on this because I think this will be useful for people. One, what did a successful networking call look like? What, like, when you got off that call and you go really happy with that call, like, what, what, because do you know what I mean? Obviously the best recruiters aren't transactional, right? They're like, you're playing short, medium-term, long-term game here. So I'm sure there's things that you're thinking like, what information can I get from this person which means I can then start trying to speak to some companies that might be hiring, right? Like, what, yeah, what did a successful networking call look like? What sort of things were you aiming to try and get from those calls?

Sure, so I mean, look, my, my background is contract engineering, UK Midlands, so very much about where are the leads, who's hiring, who's recruiting, what, what can I find out about this market so I can build it. Um, but also I might take some information from the candidate I spoke with the conversation before about a new facility being opened in Alston or something that's being mothballed and sort of investment in the area. It's as important to try and engage in conversation with bits of information that you can find from newsletters and ezines and industry information boards and take it to market and just engage in that conversation. But a successful call would, A, be that they'd pick up the call to me again and we'd have that conversation at the end if I had something that would fit for them. 'Will you speak to me?' But yeah, if there was a lead, if there was any bit of information that I could use to forward my, to take my business forward, absolutely, that would have been a great call for me.

Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that. And then the other thing, because I feel like people listen to this or think it depending on where they're on their journey, and I'm sure this is something that you've now helped your growing team with. Obviously you had the added benefit of, like you said, going to market and going, hey, I've done this successfully in the UK, EU. This is my track record. I'm now taking that to the US. What's your advice for people at this beginning stage who don't have that track record? Like, what do you lead with? What sort of thing? Is it still like a networking call and grow my network? This is what we're trying to achieve in the US. Because I can't call you, John, and say or lead with, I've got this track record, which is why I'm credible. And I'm sure you've had to help your team with this.

Yeah, absolutely. So a lot— we do a lot of work with the new members of the team around their market mapping. Like, the first couple of weeks is understanding who are the players, who's out there, what information can you find from, as I say, newsletters, e-signs, etc. If you can utilize that effectively, you can demonstrate credibility quite quickly. I mean, if you've got previous, um, reviews and recommendations on your LinkedIn. I actively utilize them, so do my team. Even if it's not directly relevant, it shows that you're a recruiter that's worth their salt.

Okay, interesting. So I guess the first thing I'd love to just hear your thoughts on then— so you told us a bit about the initial strategy, um, how, how long did it sort of take you to build traction, do you think? Or how long did it take to do your first US placement?

Uh, 21 days was, was nice. Yeah, 21 days.

So how long did it take to sign your first client?

Um, within 14.

Really?

Yeah, it was a good—

what did you plan for? What did you plan for, like 2 and a half months? 2 and a half months?

Yeah.

That's amazing. Yeah, that is like what I do. That is one of the crazy things about recruitment, isn't it? Where it's like you've done— you've obviously did the pre-leg work, like you said, donkey work, whatever you want to call it. But then you went from like, John has never done the US market, to 14 days signing terms and signing a contract. That's pretty cool.

Yeah, mate, I couldn't believe it. Honestly, wild.

Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. So I guess what, um, what, what I wanted to ask you was, what did you, what did you find quite early on maybe didn't work that maybe worked in the UK market? Compared to the US market, out of interest, if there is anything?

Yeah, absolutely. So, again, going back to the engineering contract days, you'd pull up a list of hiring managers that you know are in your patch and you'd work through them, do 20 calls in a day, not comfortably, but you'd get there. In the US, calling through a list of numbers just isn't anywhere near as effective as I found it in the UK. You absolutely can do it, and it's an important part of building relationships and engaging with people. It's certainly something we still do, but the conversations that you've pre-arranged, the ones that you've sort of got a Teams meeting in the diary or you've put something in their calendar, they're worth so much more. The substance and the conversation that you get out of those calls is way better. So that was a huge change for me. Another difference that I found, I've yet to find a job board that is worthwhile in the US as a LinkedIn recruiter. I was so used to going on Jobsite and Monster and Resume Library, like you get a contract vacancy in and you can fill it with the first couple of CVs if you're quick enough and you do the right things, but that just doesn't happen in the US, certainly not in my experience.

Okay, thanks for sharing that. So interesting. So what on, on the client piece then, like what, what did you find? Obviously you shared a few things and it might be some of the things you've already shared, but obviously you're on, you've been on this journey for the last 2 years now. What, what has been the sort of most effective and consistent way of having conversations and signing contracts with that ideal customer profile, do you think? What's ended up being— there may not be one particular way, but what, what's ended up being this sort of Yeah, overall best way.

Um, I know it's, it's quite easy for me to say with, with years of experience, but demonstration of credibility. So, um, utilizing capability statements, recommendations, referrals. If you do a really good job for your, your clients in, in the US, talking to them about internal and external, external referrals, that's been led to some really great client wins. One thing that I really focus myself and the team on is building around the vacancies that we have. So, I went to market, I pulled a job, I filled it, I took the candidates that were there, and I found the ideal clients for those candidates and built around that, and that's essentially how the initial market we built snowballed.

So, basically what you're saying there, sorry, is making sure that you're basically the, the vacancies that you are working on, um, you're obviously the candidates that you're working with, you're then gonna— the people that you source and spend time building relationships with aren't just gonna be for that one vacancy, they'll be for the other types of vacancies that you pull that are going to be similar. Is that what you're saying? Sorry.

Yeah, so niche-focused in really tight candidate-short markets that the candidates that we find the people that we're speaking with, we want to be able to talk to them about 3, 4, 5 vacancies so that we're confident that the candidates that we've got in the pipeline are ultimately going to be people that we go and help secure a new role.

Hmm. Okay. Yeah. Now that's interesting. So with when it comes to the contract piece with the US clients, obviously a lot of people uh, from what I can see, conversations I'm having, obviously you said that you did contract UK, but maybe you could just use a reference point of UK perm and everyone and EU perm, whatever. But like, what, what ended up being the sort of in and around the percentages that you ended up agreeing with these companies? Because a lot of people are under the impression they can be a lot more higher than, than the UK.

Uh, is this for contracts in, in the US?

So obviously you've been doing perm US, right?

Yeah, we have a handful, or we've made a handful of contract players.

Yeah, no, I was just curious, like, because a lot of people say, ah, the sort of terms you can agree in the US is more like 25, 30, sometimes even 35%, whereas on perm, whereas in the UK typically you're hearing 15, 18, 20, 20, like, you get what I mean? So I don't know, you don't have to obviously give me your exact, like, average percentage agreed, but like, what did you find ended up being like percentages that you are mainly talking to customers about?

Yeah, between sort of 25-35% is, um, is where we sit.

And then the— and then how, how have you found, like, obviously again this can vary from state to state and you can share insight on this, but salaries as well. Again, it's all relative, right, in terms of cost of living, these things. But salaries to the type of skill set that— I know it's contracts, it's not quite the same, but like, how have you found that? Has it been much more salary-wise in terms of the vacancies that you've worked on compared to UK?

Yeah, it's, it's fairly significant, although the caveat to that has been we've been working in a high cost of living areas, is, is somewhere that we focus because it pumps the salaries up. And also industry focus has typically been higher paying industries. That said, like for like with, with UK, um, roles, we definitely do see an uplift for, for the same kind of positions.

What, how significant are we talking? What would be like an example? If, is it like, I don't know, 60K in the UK and it's like 90K in the US? I don't know, I know it's dollars to UK pounds, but what we're talking roughly.

So some of the grads that we look at are on like $90,000. Um, we positionally from the grads. Yeah, um, yeah, I know, wild. Um, so double, that's interesting.

Okay, so what— one of the questions I had online, which I think is an interesting one, which I think this is probably a relevant time to ask it, is what have you said— what have you found to be like the main differences in the recruitment process compared to maybe the UK? And I know Obviously you did contract recruitment again, but like, from what I'm sure you understand, obviously, and but like, what would you say have been the main differences, if any, from a UK maybe typical recruitment process compared to the US?

So companies in the US can be very used to the typical US staffing agency generalist model. And obviously we're going in this from, from a different angle. We're going niche, hyper-focused on small skill sets. What we can find with some companies is because they're used to that model, they will just go after sending vacancies in bulk. Here are, John, just go and fill these without the background. And that makes a massive difference to conversion, to whether we're actually going to have any joy with the vacancies. So it's so important to set your stall out really early on with with clients that we need to do a thorough process early doors in order to really understand the USPs of the business, the projects, why candidates should come and join these businesses, because otherwise you very, very quickly lose candidates through processes if the proposition isn't strong enough, if you can't demonstrate the value as to why they should stay in this process. So yeah, that, that was, um, quite interesting.

So yeah, so what you're saying there actually is like, hopefully good UK, EU consultants should be doing is like being consultative, like not just being order takers, right? So what you're saying there actually is because a lot of these US-based companies have been used to working with generalist agencies who say, John, here are all our vacancies, like try and get some candidates for us.

Yeah.

So they're, they're order takers. It's a bit more transactional. You're saying what you had to really make sure you did get that upfront investment on from the client side is, look, we need to work together here to understand like where you're at. I might be able to offer you some insight on how you match up against other companies. Your process right now is, is going to put people off, like those types of conversations. And as you said, really understanding from that client perspective, like what is it, what is their USP in the market, why would people be excited to work for them, what are the projects they're excited about, and do all of that. Upfront work. So has that been actually quite receptive then? When have people gone, oh, John, this is great that we're doing this?

There's a lot of hiring managers with pain in, in these markets at the moment that are struggling through those avenues. So again, it's, it's an opportunity to demonstrate your credibility that you're taking the time out to, to do this where others aren't. Um, but it's also your opportunity to consult and to educate on actually 'Preciate you've utilized different hiring processes before. This is a way that I know works, and I will demonstrate that to you through this process.' In doing that, we have been able to sort of reduce stages through processes, introduce more remote stages to it so that we can get this turnaround much faster. There is always that conversation around candidates in the US having 2-week notice periods, which is absolutely correct, but you can find if you allow it, hiring processes can run for significant periods of time. The urgency needs to get built into that quickly.

Yeah, that's interesting. That's a really great insight, that. And then on this, and then let's go into like how you've gone about growing your team and all of that exciting stuff. We— I obviously, I know you said that you listened to part of it, but when I sat down with Josh to have a similar conversation, he mentioned that insight around like contracts and making sure you get those contracts signed with clients. Is there any other— obviously this isn't a law podcast by any means, and we're not offering law advice, but like any other like contractual things that you've had to learn along the way that have been quite instrumental or important to understand if I'm looking to go into the US market that, yeah, would be good for us to take a bit of a note here?

Yeah. So Josh's point about contracts absolutely resonated with me. You need to get it signed before you work the vacancies. But on that note, our contracts are very lengthy and I'm very upfront with our clients about that. It's about protecting both sides. Because of this, it can be a long conversation around getting terms signed and agreed. So anyone going to market needs to be well aware that your first client, it might be a couple of months before you've actually got those terms in place. Certainly we have had terms going through that have taken 2-3 months in order to, to get everyone on the same page about what's fair and what protects both sides. Key points to, to focus on are certainly around guarantees and rebates, candidature ownership, But yeah, it's, it can certainly be a lengthy process.

So how long, like what did you, where did you want to get this, this sort of desk business to before you started to look to take people underneath you and start growing the team?

I wanted 5 solid clients coming to me consistently for the same skill set. We managed to get to that fairly quickly, although it probably took 12 months before we were building.

So, so it took you around 12 months to get to that point?

Yeah. I mean, I was billing consistently.

I'm sure you were with more clients than 5 in 12 months. But as you said, it's the consistent, consistently coming to you part with the same skill set.

Yeah, absolutely.

No, thank you for being honest with that, because I think that sort of shows that— I saw a post recently where like someone who's done the American market for a while shared like, um, oh, he's seeing stuff at the moment where he feels like people portraying doing recruitment in the US market is easy. Obviously that's just not the case, is it? That's not where— we're not to say it, not one part of you said this has been easy. It's just talking, it's just trying to learn about the nuances. And I think the main thing— I don't know if you agree with this, but I feel like the main thing that people are drawn to, and it won't always be the case, depends what market you focus on, but like John the UK/EU recruiter can sort of do all the things that we've spoken about and look for the same skill set in these hard-to-find— get these hard-to-find people, place them, um, but then the end reward of the fee and the earning potential is, is just higher in the US.

Yeah, it is.

And that seems like the nuts and bolts of it is that it's still just as hard.

Honestly, the candidate attraction piece and actually getting these people into your processes, I found so much harder, um, than the UK. Like, the US is a great place to recruit, absolutely. I'm so excited about the opportunity there and where we can take things, but I'm still like fully believe in the UK recruitment market. I think there's great things going on in Germany as well. Like, the US isn't going to solve all problems. It's not going to be something that everyone can go out there and make a success of immediately overnight. You've got to be very focused on building relationships, generating your networks, and really focus on what you're doing. I think if you're going into this with a scattergun approach, I'm going to find a good candidate in whatever niche it is and be a million-dollar biller overnight. I just don't think that's realistic.

It's not going to happen. Yeah, no, yeah, thanks for being honest with that. So I was going to ask you around the growth of the team and stuff, and we'll do that, but just because you shared it, let's talk about the challenges then. So you just mentioned there, which is around the candidate attraction piece— has that been one of the, the challenges? And obviously you've been doing placements and you've been growing the team But what specifically have you found like a sort of challenge?

So speaking to hiring managers, as I alluded to before, like it's such a great feeling when you're doing it in engineering contracts, you've got a beast CV, you're running wild and speaking to everyone. That's been a big difference and that's been a real challenge, like getting through to these people in the old ways that I was—

So like specing and CVs?

Yeah, specing, but that hasn't been working. That's full if, like, if you're sending it to the right people, having the right conversations, um, but it's making sure that you're not going wild with it. Spam just doesn't work. Um, but yeah, having solid conversations, it takes time. You've got to demonstrate your credibility in one way or another, be it get your capability statements in front of people, engage through forums, or have like online conferences, etc. But yeah, that's been difficult. Candidate attraction is, is tough. I mean, maybe it's different in other niches. As I say, we are super specific, but that has paid dividends on the other side of things. So when you have got a solid candidate and you really believe in them and we've got like a grading structure on whether they are a good candidate for us, then you, you can be a lot more confident that you're going to go on and make a placement. Outside of that, it's understanding sort of the differences in the market, so getting your head around the benefits packages, the 401(k), the healthcare and how that works in the US. That's certainly been a challenge and that's been one of those where you just have to, or I've had to learn it as I went. But now we have a framework around that that we can talk with the team about. So yeah, it's honestly like the last 2 years have been great for that. It's every day has been a different learn. There's something like a new visa has come to me and like I've never heard of it before. So you go research that, can our clients work?

That's amazing. Again, it's being curious, right? So what's been like, what's been— if you were to look in the last 2 years, what's been the most sort of common way that you've ended up— the most common way that you've found a candidate or you've ended up getting a candidate working with you and your, your team. So has it been, has it been through headhunting? Has it been kind of referrals out of interest? Has it been LinkedIn in-mails? Well, again, we can talk about holistically, but what would you say has been the main—

well-targeted in-mails, candidate referrals has really been the one. If you do a good job, again, we talked about networking. If you take— one of the biggest things that I talk about is set your stall out early with clients, with candidates. This is what I'm going to do. This is how I'm going to do it. This is what I'm going to speak again and follow up on it. Make sure your process is watertight. And if you're demonstrating that to candidates, to clients consistently, consistently referrals on both sides come. and you can build that into your process.

Yeah, if you deliver, yeah, go, yeah, really deliver on your service, say what you're going to do, all those things. Okay, so obviously got to the, got to the year mark then, which is when you really started to sort of build people underneath you. Um, what, so what was, again, you don't have to give me exact, but I know people be curious, so I hope you don't mind me asking, what, what was like the first year goal? Like, billings-wise?

Billings? £300.

Was your— was your goal?

Yeah.

What'd you manage to do?

Uh, my first full year was £450.

That's mega from a stand start.

Yes, decent.

You proud? Were you proud of that? Was you like surprised by it, or—

Yeah, yeah. I didn't—

I went into this not knowing like where it was going to go, what was capable expectations. I'm sure you would have been obviously confident with all the things that you've learned and everything, but that, that's, that's amazing. Again, from a standstill.

Yeah.

Um, so what was, what was the approach then when it comes to hiring for your team then, John? Let's, let's talk a bit about that. Um, because I'm really interested to find out like how you found hiring people to do American hours, but in the UK?

Yeah, absolutely. So we started— I started working US hours consistently from the very beginning and works great for me. I'm a father of two young girls, so I get my time with my girls in the morning. I go to the gym, I do all my life admin, and And that works really well, and that's something that I try and talk to people about a lot because it's something that you don't necessarily get in the 9 to 5. The converse of that is it is different to a normal recruiter's role, right? So you can't just go for the after-work pints and, like, meals with your team as easily and things like that. And whilst it was fine for me doing it on my own, that was different when trying to attract and retain people. So we're fully flexible now. We talk about work your day, so work the hours that you need to in order to make sure your business moves forward each day. That might be working UK hours one day, working till midnight another. It's all dependent on on what you've got going on in the business. Outside of that, we started working US bank holidays, we're now in UK again to help with the retention and attraction, but really recruiting for the team, it was about demonstrating the vision that we've got for the US, where we're taking things, how far we've come so far, the backing we've got from the Vantage business, and showing that to to people joining the journey with us and the flexibility, the way we're taking this has been a really successful win for us and we've got a great group of people in the team to take the business forward.

So John, as you were saying, it seems like you've been on a bit of a journey when it comes to getting the internal sort of proper proposition, right, for someone joining your team who works the American hours. So you're saying something you've had to work out is obviously the, like, flexibility. You said something around, like, um, I can't remember how you worded it, but like getting the work done rather than like how many hours worked or something.

Yeah, is that right?

I don't know what you— how you worded it.

Uh, work your day.

Work your day. Yeah, I like that. Work your day. So what you're saying like that is like hold yourself accountable This is about the outcomes, not about John checking how long he was on Bullhorn for.

Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, we have the same sort of hours in a week in the office as any normal, or from home, as any normal recruitment consultant. But the way we look at it is flexing that. So if you've got a really admin-heavy day, or you have even, you want to go out for tea in the evening, then, bring your day into UK hours and make sure that works for your business. Likewise, you're often gonna have calls with candidates late in the evening, so start later, work later, and just make it work for your business.

And what's ended up being, again, I know everyone's individual, but I think this would be interesting, what's ended up being like the typical working week for someone that obviously works for you and your team, but does, works the US market. What might a typical week look like or like the typical day look like?

Hours-wise?

Yeah, just like what the typical working day might look like. Do I, am I starting at 11 and I'm working till 8 PM? Like, I don't know, what has it ended up looking like?

Well, there's a real mix in the team. Like there's a couple that really like working late, having a sort of line in the morning and things like that. The work they do tends to be sort of 1 till 10. I'm often working 11 to 8. We generally have a bit more of a compact day on a Friday anyway, just so that we have a bit more of the weekend and we're not working through to midnight. Obviously, if there's work that needs to be done, then nature of recruitment, we get it done. But yeah, it's variable across the team, and that's the great thing. We offer that flexibility. Work from home when you need to or you want to. I know a lot of people like being in the office. We've got a great environment, but there's no expectation on anyone to be here all of the time.

How has that then showed up in you managing these people? Because that must be quite hard, because normally, like, you'd like to think it'd be a bit easier if everyone, you know, when you're seeing your team, you're working the same hours, you know what I mean? How have you approached that?

We have a shared calendar, it works really well, like they can see the hours that I'm going to be in the office, I can see everyone else's. We tend to make it work pretty seamlessly. I had the same concern early on when we were talking about how we can make this flexibility work, how we can make it work for everyone. Actually, it just does, like, as I say, you put the calendar together, everyone's sort of responsible, it's on your own back. Like, if you want to be in here and be a part of the office, then absolutely come in. Otherwise, everyone's used to Teams, everyone's used to sort of engaging with each other on the phone and having those conversations. So it's nothing major now.

And you're saying the other sort of real important part has been like the vision of like what that could be part of, what it could be in the future. Because when I have sat down with, sat down with a chap called Patrick, who's building like a, yeah, a US recruitment business, but from the UK, and then taking people over. And he said that, again, everyone's individual, like you've got a family, right? So you may not be motivated by this, but he sort of found that like, I don't wanna call it like a carrot, but like the end goal being that we can help you take your career to the States is something that really excited a certain type of people. So I don't know if that's something that, a story that you're also telling people is like, look, this is where we are today, however, absolutely there's going to be an opportunity to take what we've built here, work really hard for, to then take your life over there. Is that something you thought about?

That's absolutely something we, we've thought about, and it's part of the business plan. We're opening an office in the US in April next year. Line in the sand is there, we're working towards it. Um, so absolutely there will be consultants within the business that are going out. There'll be people that join our company that that will have the opportunity to relocate to the US, equally Germany, equally the other areas.

Yeah, the other places, yeah. But have you found that's like, for the right type of person or a certain type of people, that's got, that's like, have you seen their eyes light up and that's something that they think about maybe as one of their bigger goals?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, what a cool way to go and experience your recruitment career in a different country. I'm very settled where I am. I'm very happy in my status in the UK, but I know it's a driver for a lot of people to be able to go and experience different areas of the world. And certainly there are people in the team that that is a driver for.

So obviously I'm assuming then what have you— again, this isn't a law podcast, but like What have you had to make sure you have set up? So like you just said, looking to get an actual office there in April of, I'm assuming that the company's supported you and got things like setting up like a legal entity in the US is something that you had to get done before all of that.

Yeah, that's mostly not been my side of it.

Yeah, of course.

About the vision, about—

But you don't have to have an office there, do you?

No, no, you absolutely don't. And we're very clear with everyone that, this business is being built on both sides of the pond. It's not that—

Yeah, that's a good point.

The US division and you're going out there one way or another. This is about, look, we can do it, we can make it work either way. And yeah, that's, that's also really important.

Yeah. So look, I've got, I've got a couple of like final questions that people sort of shared on LinkedIn and stuff. But before, before I sort of hit you with some of those and we sort of wrap this up, I guess, like, firstly, what are you excited about, mate? I think you've worked, you've clearly worked your absolute socks off. You've obviously built this team now. I can sort of sense how excited you are. Like, what's, where would you like to see this business and this US team that you've been building in another sort of 12, 24 months?

So, the end of this year, we'll be at 9 consultants by sort of summer, August. Next year we're looking to take that to 18, and we've got a real vision in place for 2025 being 4 separate brands within the US, as per our UK business. I'm really excited to drive that, like, there's so— one of my favorite things that I've ever done in recruitment is build patches, build businesses, and help develop people that are doing that, and that's really where I want to see us growing and being a big part of that.

And I guess for you as well, it must be really cool to sort of get exposed to like maybe a bit more like business strategy, how we're going to approach this, all those types of things as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, it's— I've, I've always, um, had an entrepreneurial streak, and, and it's great being out. I love recruitment for that. You can use it in so many different ways, um, and being able to look at the strategic side and where we're taking things next, over the next 12, 24, 10 years. Yeah, it's exciting.

That's amazing. So let me, let me just hit you with maybe like just 1 or 2 questions, if I may, and then we'll wrap it up there, if that's all right. Absolutely. So the first one that I had, this came up a couple of times, and I think you sort of mentioned this maybe loosely at the beginning, so I wanted to ask it. Was that the question is which product retain solutions have been most successful How have you gone about improving your contingent relationships?

I know that's sort of two questions, but, um, so how have we gone about improving our contingent relationships? Certainly based around, um, regular meetings in the diary consistently. Both parties are involved in it and there's buy-in from the client side as to why there is real merit in that. That's had a huge impact on relationship building, on process and how we move.

Well, would you— sorry to buy— would you— sorry to buy in, but what do you call those meetings?

Just biweekly meetings.

What's the purpose? Sorry, like, what's the— like, what's the purpose? Like, why is a client going to go, John, yeah, happy to give you 30, 45 minutes of my time every couple of weeks? Because these people are going to be time poor, no doubt.

Yeah, absolutely, but they're also really crying out for the talent that we've got. It's the opportunity for both of us to have a serious conversation about what's going on in the market, who's hiring, who's taking your staff, where your attrition might be coming from, but also it's our opportunity to really delve into the progress reports that we talk to our clients about and look, why are you sourcing this talent? Where are you missing the mark? Who, who is getting these talent instead of you and what can we do about it? It's an opportunity to have that strategic conversation about the hiring and really partner with that process.

That's brilliant. I love all those things that you just said. What? What? Yeah, that's— I think that's brilliant. So what, what, what sort of type of products and solutions have you found be more successful? Are you at the moment mainly working with your customers on a retained basis, exclusive? I don't know, how's that played out?

Yeah, exclusive, that's working really well. Not so much on the retain side. We do run mini MSPs for projects with, with clients. That's been very effective. Um, but yeah, okay.

I've got another— I've got— and I'll ask you one more question, but I just wanted to— this is to what you just said, but I just, I'm curious What do you— how, like, if I was to say to you, John, what are the principles to consistently gaining exclusivity with my clients? What, what would you say? It might be some of the things you're talking about today, but what would you say?

Yeah, for, for me it's been the capability statements and particularly the client referrals. You get a client referral and that's massive. Internal to a new hiring manager, external to a partner business, a sister company, that's really led to strong exclusive relationships.

Love it. So final question, this came from someone, but I think it's a nice question to end on. What has surprised you most about this US journey so far, this US market, having come from obviously the background that you've come from, UK, Europe?

How different every day is. I know it's always, always the same in recruitment, how much I'm enjoying it still after 2 years of building and the opportunity that there is if you're doing things right, if you're taking a niche approach, the way that you can engage with global brands. I never found that opportunity in the UK. To get in with some of the biggest brands in the industry effectively and quickly. And that's, that's something that I've been really surprised with. If you're doing it right, doing the full process right.

Love it. John, it's been an absolute pleasure. Excited to see where you are in another 2 years. Thank you so much for sharing. Like you've, yeah, you've shared a lot today. So I just want to say thank you for that. I know this will be really helpful for so many people. What an exciting time to be part of your journey. And yeah, I know you have big growth plans and all those things. So yeah, look, John, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a real pleasure.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.