Karan Kaushal - What the modern day recruiter needs

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Karen from a company called Thor Companies. Karen has been on a fantastic journey. We're talking over a decade of recruitment experience, and over the, the last 9 years, he was the 6th employee of the business that he's been part of for nearly a decade. And he's now actively involved in the business that has circa 130 people in the business today globally. They have offices in London, New York, Stockholm, LA, and his role has really evolved and he's become someone that is known to be a troubleshooter, is known to be someone that can get the best out of people and teams. So in this episode, we're going to really dive into loads of leadership philosophies, how they've really diversified and grown the business, and so much more. Enjoy the episode. Karen, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Looking forward to talking about your recruitment career. You've been in the industry for over a decade, 13 years, but not counting. 13 years, so plenty to unpack. I think what I always like to do before I ask you the million-pound question that we always start with But just like to unpack it for the listeners in terms of sort of parts of your journey and where you're at today. So feel free to correct me if I get any of this wrong, but just for everyone listening, so as you said, been in the industry for 13 years, started your recruitment career with an S3 brand, Progressive, worked there for 3 and a half years, and then you joined the business that you are still part of now, Thor Companies. Yep. Been a big part of that journey. I like to think so, yeah. The 6th employee. And now this business has scaled to, it's like, 100 people, have different offices globally, and you've always operated in different parts of the world. And your role, which is why I'm really excited to sort of unpack a few of these things, from at the moment, I'm sure there's loads of different things you get involved with, but the way that you described it to me was there's sort of 3 key areas that you find yourself in, which is managing the sales of the life science business, run a team of TA, and that's to be involved in there, and then you're also involved in L&D. So That's why I was really keen to unpack your journey, because I think you've been involved in all different parts of a growing recruitment business. But where I always like to start, and I'm sure this is something you've thought a lot about, particularly at Thor, is I'd love to hear your take on, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you believe make up a highly successful recruitment consultant in today's market? I'd love to hear your perspective on that.

I like when you say today's market, because like you said, 13 years in the industry, I think my perception, and I'm sure Other people in my position would say, yeah, hard work, commitment, you know, all those things, grit, communication skills, they're standard, they need to be there, the resilience piece. I think in today's market, when you add to that list, for me it would be commercial awareness. I think people, when they're switched on, they're curious commercially to know what's happening in the market. I think that's a good sign of a successful recruiter in the making. Accountability is big. Given how recruitment is done today, the emphasis on yields, DPH, what is the business doing from a profitability perspective, I think if people feel accountable, they perform better. I.e., they know what their goals and targets are, so they're accountable towards them. So I think those would be the addition to the resilience, the hard work piece that everyone talks about. Apart from that, I would say, yeah, drive. People who are really driven. People are self-aware. And I think I definitely heard this on one of your podcasts, and I thought about it, that's actually, yeah, pretty much what we look for as well. People who are mouldable, people who are willing to try different things. All of those traits, in my opinion, I think, yeah, that you're set for a good recruitment career if you've got that in locker.

Yeah, so many great things there. I guess I really want to focus on this journey that you've been on with Thor. I think a lot of people are really interested in that. But I have to sort of ask, and I always like to sort of start here, how would you describe Karim before recruitment?

I think if I'm honest, growing up, I didn't have many role models. I don't come from a massive, like, a privileged family, but we had enough food, money, and all that jazz. But it's all right. I never had, like, the need to look up to someone. I was content. Before recruitment, the reality is I've got a degree in engineering, I've got a master's in finance. When I was able to sort of add 2 and 2 together, I was like, okay, I need to make money, I'm driven by money, clearly. Where's the most amount of money? Finance seemed to be— everyone sort of wanted to be an investment banker, so I was like, okay, we'll go into a master's in finance, we'll turn into a high-profile investment banker or something like that. Obviously didn't happen because I graduated at a peak of the financial crisis. You must have been quite young back then. 2008, 2009? I had no choice, fell into recruitment. But I think to answer your question, Hishem, I feel Always, even at a young age, 14, 15, I was doing stuff. I was, you know, going to my dad's mill, picking up all the scrap metal, selling that to the scrap dealers, making a few quid there. When I was at university, yes, I had the odd job at Sainsbury's and all that stuff that people do, but I think I was more buzzing about getting a suitcase of costume jewellery from China or India and going to Greenwich Market or Covent Garden Market, going to the market and selling that. You know, that was me. So I just loved being that dealer, but that's also where I learned I'm good talking to people. I don't have a fear of approaching people. So I think all of that made me feel, when I did decide that, okay, this could be an industry I can actually try it out, those were the reasons that I can make a lot of money, I'm good with people. So yeah, that was me before recruitment.

I love that. So what— and I always like asking this question because a lot of people do fall into the industry, as you know, Like, I'm just touching on this earlier, but like, what do you think this amazing career and industry has maybe given you as a person, professionally, personally, that maybe you least expected when you was at that part of your life and you sort of fell into it?

Sure, that's very hard for me to answer. I think the reality is that there's a lot I've learned in the last 10, 15 years about— I've learned about myself. I mean, my ability, this resilience piece that you just asked me, the characteristics of a good recruiter. I didn't know I had it in me to the extent I do now. Obviously, with time, your threshold to deal with rejection and failures, you learn and you pick up and you move on. But I think, yeah, for me, what I've got from this career is obviously the financial upside, which we don't make, you know, it's a given if you're good, you make a lot of money. So that's there. Good. We've got a good lifestyle, great house, good sort of yeah, holidays and all that stuff. But I think for me, it's the— especially I thought the opportunity to work with the people I work with, to learn from them, and being able to see different aspects of how to run a business. So you can, you can say that that's outside of recruitment, but it still has been part of my recruitment journey. Dealing with people, how to manage, how to get the most out of your people, how to approach a difficult conversation with ease. So just all of that puts like perspective. I've got perspective of my time in the industry.

Nice, love that, because I don't know, I'm a huge advocate of people choosing a career in recruitment just because I think just some of the things you're saying now, there's so many amazing things that come with a successful career in recruitment that you learn about yourself professionally, personally. But I guess what I was keen to ask you, and then we'll sort of move on to your journey in the last sort of 9 years, What are some of the things as a recruiter do you think you learn within that S3 environment early on that maybe you still live by today, out of interest?

So you're asking me what did I take from S3 or what still sticks with me?

Yeah, like, is there anything that— just before we move on to— yeah, I'm just curious to see about those sort of first 3 and a half years. S3 are very renowned for their training and very high competitive environment. Just always curious, is there anything that I don't know, that you learned in that environment that, yeah, you still live by today, you still find yourself talking to people about in, in, in Thor companies today?

Like I said, training there was really good. Still, like, I look back at the days, those training formats in the West End, they were great. But I think for me personally, that was it. I learned recruitment there, the basics of recruitment. I've always been someone that I just look around me 'Oh, you're doing okay, that's working for you, I'm going to try that, I'm going to put a spin on that.' Or, 'You're doing that, I'm going to copy that, I'm going to apply.' So, not really sort of, you know, that they've taught me this. I think, yeah, a few things, lead sheets. I think lead sheets, my manager was like, 'Where's your lead sheet?' And I think that was pretty good. I'm very good at market mapping still, I'm heavily involved in sort of identifying new markets, new sort of geographies and so that, where there's money will follow. So, yeah, the lead sheet piece was from S3, a day plan, Something small, having structure. You're doing client work in the morning, you're doing candidate work in the afternoon. That accountability also in terms of your targets, you need to be doing X amount of dial-outs or interviews to do deals, those ratios. So seeing a recruitment business from a ratio perspective, I think I learned that at S3. And I say I learned that at S3, it was predominantly my manager, Nick, who's still my boss. We've been working together for Yeah, 13 years. Nick was very much like, okay, you've got an interview ratio of 4 to 1, need to bring that down to 3. So you need to work on your candidate quality. That ability to oversee the entire recruitment process, be analytical about it. That was good. MBRs, you know, monthly business reviews. I think people view them as, okay, this is a tasting session. I'm going to get told off by my manager. I'm just like, this is a great opportunity as a consultant to spend some time with your manager, go through your month in numbers, what's working, what's not working, what's the target. So There's loads of good stuff we've, and I'm not saying it's just exclusive to S3, in the industry.

The reason why I ask is because I'm sure you see this now and thought, but like in the modern world there's always something new, golden, shiny, that, oh, I can try it this way and these things, and you typically hear recruiters that have been in the industry for a long time the importance of getting back to basics. So yeah, I'm just curious to hear what you sort of picked up that maybe you still live by. I wanted to ask you, because you just mentioned him there, Nick, that, that's a really long time working for someone who, yeah, still now your boss. What, what do you think are some of the things that— how do you think he's inspired you? How do you think he's, uh, led in a way that has made you be someone that has been committed to helping him on his journey? He's helped you on your journey. I don't know, what are some of the things that you think Nick's done really well that has obviously really resonated you and kept you engaged and motivated for this entire team time to be on the journey with him.

Sure. So I think, to give you some context, me and Nick didn't like each other at the start.

Brilliant.

No, I think we did a business trip in Oslo and we got off at Heathrow on the way back, we didn't even say bye, we just went. Anyway, that's a long time ago. What happened after that trip, I think he realised that I'm good and I also realised 'Blody hell, he is really good.' So we both saw that there's potential, and I can learn a lot. I've always been open to the idea, if I can learn something from you, I'll work around you, I'll compromise, and I'll come in line with whatever you want me to do. So that kind of relationship started there, and then since then, I would say he's always had my back in particular. So when the directors, es, three, would be giving him a hard time about me, he will fight my corner. And yeah, we all have ups and downs. I think there were I do remember like 1 or 2 bad months for me where the deals weren't coming. My problem was I never had a vertical, I never stuck to a vertical. So if I was to give some advice to myself, it probably would be stick to a vertical, it works. That's another one thing we picked up at S3, I would say, you know, having a vertical patch and actually mapping it out is pretty good. So to answer that previous question, so Nick's, yeah, he's been, he's been a mate, he's been my mentor throughout my career. I think, I think his leadership is more about, he has the vision, guys, this is what it means for me. This is what it could mean for you. But because we work together so, for so many years, he actually knows what's important for me. It's my family, it's the financial perks, it's recognition. So whatever he, whatever project he gives me or he's running, we will have that understanding. I know he wants perfection. He probably wants everything to be done in the best way, quickest, by pleasing all the shareholders. I know that. So I'll just start thinking and acting like that. So yeah, he's been very instrumental over the last couple of years in particular, especially in the pandemic. So he had a plan, he communicates his plan really well, and we can see that it will work, we just need to give it our best. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that is just like, that trust has been there from a long time, and now it's the case of, okay, even if we disagree on something, we'll end up agreeing eventually, compromise here and there. and that just works.

No, I think there's some great learnings in there for any aspiring leaders or current leaders. He's obviously really understands what your drivers are. I think the best leaders understand what those are, or at least work really hard to know what drivers different people have. And yeah, I think it sounds easy to be able to clearly articulate your vision and what you want for things, but that's actually really difficult, especially when you're trying to get other people on that journey, right? So I think that's a really good skill. So I guess, help me out here then and help us out, the people listening, like in terms of Forza Business early on, obviously you've been there for 9 years, obviously what you shared with me, and you can feel free to add any context, but obviously early years, I think you shared with me that fair to say it was a bit treated a bit more like a lifestyle business and you did a lot in the oil and gas.

Yeah, so we were predominantly an oil recruitment company.

Oil recruitment company. And then obviously one of the big, I'm sure there's been quite a few milestones and the pivotal moments, but one of the pivotal moments that then actually ended up being the catalyst for the growth of the business was 2016.

Correct.

Oil crisis. So just describe to us, so like going into that, the business was, did you say it was like what, 7 or 8, like 4 to 7 people?

I think we were 9 people. We were doing really well, even as a lifestyle business. I think Nick, Chris, Lee, like all the guys were pulling together, having a lot of fun, making a lot of money. And we were like, guys, we're ready. All right, come on, let's take some risk. We were in an office in Clapham. Chris was always like, no, no, we need to be in the city. He loves the city anyway, but we committed to a big fat lease, moved in, I think we moved in the month of, yeah, probably October, November time. And then 6 months later, boom, the oil price drops from $120, I think it was hovering around $30, $40. And I was like, no, no, everything's gonna be all right, guys. Everything was all gonna be all right. But the reality was, it was, it still isn't all right in that industry. All we knew was oil. All our contacts, all our dealings were heavily exposed to that one industry. Lesson learned, diversification is good. Yeah, that was the catalyst. We were like, okay guys, we are obviously very good. Either we can pack up, you know, go back to SRE, because we were pretty, we were good billers, very employable in my opinion. We could either do that, or come on, there's a challenge here. 'What are we prepared to do? Let's go one more time,' and that paid off. We diversified into other geographies, we were very good headhunters because we never had databases. I think that's one thing very unique about us, we are really good headhunters, we're very good market mappers, we know exactly who to call for what job. A, we don't work generalist jobs, they're very specialist jobs, so we work in markets where to do a placement there's only let's say circa 300 people in a country that do that job. So you know pretty much everyone. So like, we've got something here, can we replicate that in Sweden, in Denmark, which worked? Can we try other industries? We only did oil, can we do tech? Chris had a huge background in tech anyway, he was S3 recruiting in the SAP market in the UK. So from that, we ventured out, from 9 people we went back to 6, we had to let go a few people. And then yeah, 2017, I would say the life science business really kicked off, And everything just kind of followed. It was 15, 16 people altogether 2017, and then, yeah, like you said, we're 132 today across 3 key markets, across 4 office locations. So, yeah.

So, just to make sure everyone understood that, so the 3 key markets now are tech, life science, engineering, and energy. Okay, so just quickly, I just want to take you back to that moment when the barrel of oil— sorry to, obviously it's quite painful.

It's all right, you learn from it.

But like, this is what people want to, I guess, hear and learn from. Like, how did that actually feel when that happened? You said like, oh, it's going to be all right, guys, blah, blah, blah. What was actually going through your mind when you realised, actually, guys, I don't think this is actually going to go back? Like, how—

Would you believe it? I was actually on the phone to a big engineering manager in a massive international oil and gas company. We're very good at building rapport, so we had a relationship with this guy. We've met him a couple of times. I was actually trying to convince him he's going to be all right. He's telling me 'This is done, this is over.' I'm like, 'No, no, no, Stein, it'll be all right, trust me, get us another contractor in.' No. So I think reality is, credit where credit's due, Nick again came through. We took some salary cuts around that time, we took a long holiday. Summer for us is normally very quiet. Nick was like, 'Guys, there's no business, why don't we just take a long holiday, unpaid, but come on, this is your contribution.' towards, you know, your commitment. And we're working on a plan, the plan was to go life sciences. So yeah, I think, I think I was scared, I'm not going to lie to you. That was, I was just having my first kid around that time. I was expecting a baby, yeah, it was August time, and I was really scared. This is in July, guys, what's happening? Like, what is happening? And to be fair, I actually didn't know this about me, that I can actually recruit in other markets. I thought I'm an oil and gas recruiter, Stavanger is my bread and butter, Trondheim, Bergen are locations I'm good at, but Norway, that's all I know. But the reality is, I think when you're in those situations, you learn to adapt. And thank God I went through that. I feel like Nick and Chris, particularly at that time, they were really good catalysts for, guys, adapt, adapt new skills, adapt new markets, go try it out. We don't have 2 months to try new markets, you're good enough to make a call in 2 weeks. So we were trying markets, new markets ourselves. I did life sciences, I did tech, I did everything. I did Nigeria, I did America, I did Belgium, all sorts. But again, that trust, that sort of encouragement from your, you know, owners in a way goes a long way. And it does push you out of your comfort zone and you achieve great things.

Hey everyone, a real quick one from me. This podcast would not be possible without our amazing podcast partners, Vincere and Sourcebreaker. Because you listen to this podcast, you're able to get your hands on exclusive savings on both of these award-winning products. If you're a growing recruitment business, you have to check out Vincere, who are an all-in-one operating system for your growing recruitment business. With Sourcebreaker, if you want to make sure that all of your recruiters have the best tools on the market to stand out and beat their competition, then you have to check out Sourcebreaker. Use the link in the show notes, in the comments below, and you'll be able to get yourself exclusive savings on on these amazing products. So, curious, I think this is the sort of right moment to ask with the couple of things that you mentioned there. Like you said, obviously now you're in 3 core markets, said you've always been excellent at market mapping. Like, I think people will be really curious to sort of hear your perspective and take on, like, now there's probably a bit more of a science to it. Like, back then you said, look, let's just adapt, let's try different things. But what would you say are some of the, like, if you were to start a brand new patch tomorrow, and you were looking for a market that you think could be sustainable, uh, could there could have be sort of plenty of growth in the market, there's plenty of money to be made, uh, it's within niche as you said, within the vertical, what are some of the sort of, yeah, key indicators or things that Karren looks for when we're looking at a market to go, you know what, I think this is well worth putting resource and time into? What are some of the key indicators that you now look for in terms of a market that you think is well worth going into focusing on and potentially building a business around?

I think to just base it on an online search or a digital search might be not the right one, but I would personally, for me, when I've done it, I've seen what I can leverage that we have today. For example, engineering was a very good add-on to what we knew on the oil side, because there were some overlaps in terms of the skill set. A health and safety engineer in oil and gas could also do health and safety stuff on a project for engineering industry. So I would see for leverages, what you've got already, what are the add-ons to that market? But if I'm honest with you, and again, I did pick this up from S3, I don't know if I'm giving too much away here, knowing what your competition does. I got that from a very, very small interaction with Russell Clements, who was the CEO back then, and it was just an informal conversation. And his feedback to us was, as managers, like, you should always know what your competition is doing because We should follow them and then beat them. Again, that's quite old school, yeah, it's quite from the past. But the reality is, I'm looking at how many people, let's say we pick up a skill set based on these conversations, what the competition is doing, your own commercial awareness kicks in. For example, now with the energy bills, what they're doing, it's a no-brainer that we need to, there's going to be a huge investment towards unconventional sources, okay, so we'll be saying There is a huge demand, okay, great, so you follow your nose there. Then for me, from a recruitment perspective, I'm looking at how many jobs are being advertised in there, what's the average salaries there, how many people are, let's say, in a city doing that job as per LinkedIn, okay. So those are the kind of things I'll be looking at, and that will allow me to, yeah, conclude my due diligence and say, okay, that's the market I want to go into, or I don't want to go into that because the average fees are low, volume's not there, whatever.

Yeah, nice, some great insight there. So, curious to ask you then, I've had a number of people that I've sat down with who have said how competitive and challenging the UK market is, even if they're in a niche and these types of things. Even had someone recently say like they would, yeah, never do the UK market again and only do mainland Europe and these things. Just curious to get your thoughts on like what do you think are some of the the key principles to recruiting successfully in places like Norway, Scandinavia, internationally? Because I think a lot of people, if I'm honest, that I'm speaking to obviously have their business in the UK but actually are just doing a bit like you guys, only recruit in places outside of the UK. I don't know if you have anything to share there on maybe things you've had to learn the hard way, but what are some of the sort of principles you think to being successful in international markets, you think?

I think you've got to have a long-term vision. So, you can't go into these markets, definitely not in mainland Europe, definitely not with Scandinavia. I think I can, you know, name 10-15 businesses top of my head that failed. Because I think they go in with the UK mindset of looking at it as a transactional piece of business. I think that's the first mistake, because these guys, a) don't know you, don't really trust you anyway, but then if you're going in with that attitude, you are bound to, you know, not build relationships. You're not going to build a relationship. You might do the odd placement here and there, but you won't build relationships. So I think that's key. You've got to be patient, you've got to have a long-term play. What does that country or that market mean to your overall strategy? What does it mean from a headcount perspective? Okay, so all of those criteria are big ones. You can't be playing at it. You've got to commit to it, and you've got to be able to see through the, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4 months where you don't make any money, but you're learning, learning, learning. And then when it actually starts to come in, then how do we expand and grow? And that's when your BD comes in, your account managers come in. But I think a lot of businesses, in my opinion, quite humble in my opinion, but I feel, yeah, they're all about the quick wins now.

Just thought of this when you were talking about that. How long would you give a new market a chance, you think, Karen, in terms of like, You've seen the things that you've seen, you've really given it a real effort for X period of time, but then I don't know if there's a period where you then have to make a decision, gone, I don't know, 3, 6 months, you're going, you know what, we've really given it a crack, maybe it wasn't quite what we expected, is it? I don't know, I don't know if you've thought about that.

I have experienced that as well, like at Thor, there's been one or two markets where we're making money, but it's painful, and it's good money, but it's painful, it's not as consistent that we would like. So I would say, Depending on experience level, if I've got my best person in a project that I feel I've done the due diligence, go in, money to be made, I think if it's my best person, I'll probably say 2 months, 3 months max is enough. And again, I'll be looking for green shoots. Are people willing to talk to you? Are people open to using agents? Because if in 3 months you can't make it work, it's definitely not the skill because I've got my best person on that project. It probably is the market. and there are certain markets like that which are not, yeah, they're not fertile, so you shouldn't be in those patches because there's enough people or there's not that much demand, whatever the case may be. So I would say depending on skill level, but if you're decent recruiter 360, 2 to 3 months should be enough time for you to say, okay, this is not working, I need to get away, because then you're chucking good money after bad.

Yeah, no, yeah, that's really helpful. So let's talk about this, this scaling journey then. A lot of, I'm sure you're aware, like so many recruitment companies in the UK, a lot of them aren't 100+ people, actually a very small percentage of them are. So obviously I'm not sitting down with the founders of Thor, but I think you'll have a really interesting perspective of you being a big part of this journey and being on the ride. What would you say, let's start with the challenges, people want to know about some of the difficult periods and some of the things that you really had to work through, like thinking about scaling and growing successfully and sustainably, what would you say have been some of the like biggest challenges or hurdles that you guys have really had to work through, maybe approach in a different way after approaching it a certain way, that have really, that you had to work through to get to where you are today and continue to go in the right direction? Were there any moments that a lot of people share with us that getting past the sort of 20, 30 headcount mark's really difficult, they find themselves going back and forward? When you're, yeah, 50 to 100 people business, then it's like, I maybe won't be able to have that family feel that maybe we had before, do you know what I mean? There's all different challenges along the journey. I don't know if there are any challenges that stick out in your mind that you think, wow, we're back here again, let's try it this way, you know?

Loads, as you can imagine, like that's, yeah, I can relate to all of the things you've mentioned there. I think, yeah, getting to 30 and hovering around that for a long period of time, hiring but then losing people as well. We generally don't lose people to competition, so We hire a lot of Scandinavian people because we operate in those countries. So it's a case of, okay, someone decides to go back home, or they want to go back to university, or they think the industry is not for them, the usual challenges. But yeah, hovering around the 30, then getting to 50, okay, sticking around 50, looking back 3 months, okay, we're still 50, what's happened? Yeah, we lost 3 people there, we lost 3 people there. So those are more, I wouldn't even call them failures, they're just learning curves. But we have to change and adapt. Reality is, COVID was good, it was a good catalyst for us. We landed some really big hitters, people who probably felt what I felt at S3, that I'm not being looked after. So those were good hires and we've built teams around them, so they've got already a well-known name. They themselves are good known, well-known people in the industry, so when they come to us, they bring a few people with them. So that helped the growth aspect. We upped our salaries massively, this year. Not mine, but everyone else's. So yeah, we've now— the grads that come in, they come in at 25. So that's again, you know, being in line with the market, but also making sure we are appealing. We changed our commission scheme, we've introduced loads of benefits, like loads— gym, pension, insurance, you name it. So that's a constant ongoing— you've got to keep adapting, move on with the times. But I would say the biggest challenge in my opinion, and it's annoying because I sit somewhere in the middle, I've got the sales, I've got the growth, I can see the people, is just making sure that people that are coming into the business think and act like us. Because eventually they will be one of us, or they will be owning a piece of the pie, or they will be running a team, i.e., office somewhere. As long as they can think and act like us, great. So that's been the challenge of getting the right people through.

Yeah, it always tends to be that, doesn't it? Yeah, so how do you— curious, like, how do you think about creating what you're saying, they think and like and think like and act like us? How do you think about cultivating and influencing and protecting culture, especially being, yeah, over 100-person organization, you've got people in different countries? I don't know, how do you think about that?

How—

is there anything that you do internally that you think really make sure that we have the best chance of influencing the right culture and protecting it, protecting our standards? I don't know, how personally do you think about culture and influencing it in the right way or protecting it?

Massively, massively. I think when you talk about culture, I do a lot of interviews, I speak to a lot of recruiters, rec directs and all that, everyone's talking about culture, you know, every recruitment company, we've got great culture, got great ping pong table, Thursday night beers, company holidays, so everyone's got that. Where are you different? What's your unique point? I think the biggest thing for me, what I'm trying to instill when I speak to people, is you've got the, you know, you've got the S3s of this world, the Nigel Franks and all the big players, they're up there. Then you've got the startups, there's loads of them like you said. We're somewhere in the middle. So we've been through the hard yards of a startup where, yeah, I was getting the coffee, we were having to do everything ourselves, TA, marketing, all sorts, and recruiting. And then you've got the big boys where everything's done, the top management's in place, the team leaders, the seniors, everyone's place being looked after. So if you're a recruiter, whether you've got a couple of years under your belt or you're a fresh grad, I think working for a company like ours, that is really good for you because you're not having to do any of the hard yards of a startup, but you're also not having to jump any red, you know, any bureaucracy or any hoops there. So great, Great time to be here. I think, yeah, the challenge with that is how do you keep these people motivated and ticking along, which is your question. I would say it's constant reinforcing the message, the vision. So you have a sales meeting at the start of the month. Great guys, this is what we're doing this month. How often do you follow that up? And how often, well, let's say we've got a holiday to Dubai as a target. How often are we talking about it on the sales floor, at the coffee machine, in the pub, So people are all, you know, on the same page. Then the other piece would be, you know, how are you engaging your staff? So I personally feel I like to give the team I've got right now, I would like to give them more and more responsibility because I know they can do it, but they also want to do it. It makes them feel part of the business. So for example, if I'm asking one of my seniors to run an incentive as opposed to me running it, 'You run it. What do you think we need?' 'Karen, I think we need more interviews. That's what was lacking last month.' 'Right, great. Let's put a target in place. You've got the budget, but you're running it. I trust you.' That conversation, and there's, you know, 6, 7, 8 team leaders in that position, they will then trickle that down message. They will trickle that message down. They'll pass on the positivity. They'll work with extra sort of consciousness because I've trusted them. And I think that's what's working for us right now.

So that all sounds really interesting. I guess at this point, as we sort of come to the end here, there's a couple of things I just wanted to get your thoughts on. One of the things that you shared with me that you feel like is one of the things you're good at, and I feel like you're just talking about it there, is leadership and sort of empowering people. And I think that is a really big part of successfully growing your recruitment business.

Big, yeah.

And I think that can be really challenging for people to get right. I think ideally a lot of recruitment owners that I speak to, or recruitment leaders, they'd love to have homegrown talent that get to leaders and these types of things, but it can be really difficult to, um, yeah, cultivate that and create that. So I guess the first thing that I just— I'm always curious to hear people's thoughts on, like, do you have any leadership philosophies that you really live by that you think enable you to, yeah, get the most out of your team, empower people? Uh, I don't know, just any sort of perspective on, like, what you think good leadership looks like and the things that you live by and really try and cultivate and and help people with when it comes to leadership? And anything there to share?

Um, loads. Like I said, I just learn. I'm not naturally sort of a leader leader, but if I see you're doing something good and I know I can benefit from it, I'll go and adapt and I'll apply that. But I think the basic ones, especially from a recruiting perspective, is lead by example, you know. So I wouldn't be saying anything to my guys, something that I wouldn't do or they can't do. So I'll have that in mind. So leading, leading with an example. Also You know, what I'm thinking, what I'm wanting from the team, like communicating that enough and make it visible so that we're all bought into the same vision. So having the vision that you have in mind, sharing that with your guys, that really helps leadership. If I've got a target in my head that I need to make a million-pound profit this year, let's say, and I'm not communicating that to my top leaders, when I'm driving them, because they don't know, they're not bought into it. So I'm just constantly telling them like, "Aaron, this month, this is the plan, mate. This is what we're doing. This is what it means for you. This is what it means for me. This is, yeah, we're going for it. How do we get the troops behind it?" So I think those two things, leading by an example, having the vision, and I think you had Andrew on your show, Stiletto, so picked this up from him, the framework, the management framework. Like, okay, how do we, there's a problem, how do we solve it? What options do we've got? Keeping it relevant, keeping it fresh, and revisiting it, that's for me a leadership style that works, at least in my career has worked for me. I'm sure I could do lots more, but yeah, that seems to work. And the reality of the situation is when you're working with like-minded people, when you're working with the kind of people that you've either trained yourself or you've got them into the business yourself, that does work. 'cause they're more or less thinking like you as well.

Yeah, what I've found really interesting in this conversation is how often you've used the word vision. And I think when I'm thinking of small growing recruitment businesses, I think that's sometimes what can actually lack. Like they're just thinking about what's directly in front of them and it's hard not to think about those things. But I think when I was in a business, recruitment business of 8, 10 people, that's what I think actually really lacked is like, where are we all going together, why are we all in this together, and like how I can play a part of that. Do you get what I mean? And I think sometimes people think, oh, I'm going to make sure we have a really crystal clear vision of where we want to get to when we're a bit bigger, when we have more people, do you know what I mean? And that's clearly like you've talked about in the leadership, the growth of the business. And I think when you have really thought about where you're taking your business or your team, you can then get people on that journey.

Yeah.

But if you're just driving the activities and there's no—

yeah, exactly. So even when I'm running the, you know, a meeting with my TA guys, as opposed to saying, yeah, we need to hire these many I'm more interested in telling them why we're hiring them, what does it mean for you, what does it mean for the business? And I think that resonates more, as opposed to just saying, guys, 15 hires needed this quarter, off you go. So it's like they're part of the journey. And Creditable Credit Review, I think that comes a lot from Nick and Chris, like that's how they operate. That's how we were when we were a team of 6, you know, 9 years ago. We're now 130, we're still working the same way. So it works, I wouldn't change that.

So as we come to the end here then, I think, I don't know how you feel about things, but depending on how much you buy into negativity online and these things, as you said, I think one of the key learnings that you shared with us in 2016 was the importance of diversification. Clearly have that now, 3 different markets, different locations. But as a business, like, what do you guys have top of mind going into the next 6, 12, 18 months? I think a lot of finance people bringing it back to there would probably say we're definitely going to go into a downturn. For how long, we don't know. There's definitely going to be challenges. Yeah, a lot of recruitment leaders I'm speaking to are saying, look, we're still in a good position, but again, want to make sure that they're trying to make smart decisions. But what are you having top of mind going into the end of this year, next year?

Sure.

Where your guys and girls might be in a different type of market and be facing challenges where they are going to have to use those resilience muscles.

Okay, very good question. I think if I was to answer that to the best of my ability, I would say we've had a really good 18 months so far. That includes, you know, the pandemic, and we've grown in revenue, we've grown in headcount. Good. Like I said, we've got 3 brands. Currently, I would say we're good. Can we do better? Yes. What happens now and then is, okay, one brand will do really good, one might do average, and the third one might up and down or whatever. So there's a lot of dovetailing. One month the US will have a PB month and Europe will have a slow month, vice versa. So I think for me, the next 18 months, along with the other stakeholders, the managers, the team leaders, and everyone's part of this, it's not me or Nick or Chris or the other man, it's all of us together. We want to get that from good to great, i.e., all brands are consistently delivering. Once we nail that, okay, then we're one step close to this high-performing culture that we are trying to achieve. Hopefully we achieve that in the next 15 to 18 months. We've got some real, real strong projects internally, like good projects internally that will help us to achieve that. So that'd be my next 18 months, to get from good to great. I know it might sound cheesy, but we've got a good business. Can we get more? Yes, I think we can scale up a bit more, we can sharpen up a little bit more in terms of how to maximize the existing markets we work in, how can we maximize the opportunities in those markets? Because I feel like, at times I feel like we're scratching the surface. There's so much more we can achieve.

For me, exactly.

So those are the next 18 months, and I feel, okay, if we can nail that, then the following 18 months, again, we would just want to carry on growing in revenue and headcount. We have got a target in place, what we want to be by the summer of next year and the summer after and so on. So those will be just milestones that are just in the background. You do a business plan every year, rejig it the year after, see where you were short. So I think the best way to summarise or answer your question would be, we're good today, we want to be great, that's the 18-month plan for us.

So look, let's end it on this then. There'll be a lot of people listening that haven't had, that have only experienced good times, loads of jobs, candidates that are challenged, but they're doing deals, they're having PBs. You've been through a number of different markets and challenges, but what would your advice be for people listening to this, recruiters that, yeah, maybe over the next 6-12 months they are going to experience more knockbacks projections and challenges that maybe they've ever experienced before. I don't know, yeah, if there's anything that you would leave people with that could maybe help them be best prepared for potentially experiencing more challenges than they've ever experienced.

I think your ability to self-reflect. So like, if you're doing the same, you're canvassing the same people day in, day out, and not getting the results, okay, so first of all, question who you're canvassing, why you're canvassing, what you're canvassing, why you're pitching them. And then if you can learn from your mistakes and just go into next day with the mentality that I want to improve, that'll be the first, more or less like an attitude, self-aware mindset. Okay, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the right activity at the right time? If not, can I do that? But I would also say, like, if you could have a think about a complementary market, start preparing in advance. Okay, if you, like you said, there's a recession coming, okay, what markets in your opinion would not be impacted by this? For instance, during COVID the sales of Health equipment, you know, gym, your cycling things, Pelotons, sorry, yeah, that went through the roof. Laptop sales were sky-high, everyone wanted laptops to work from home. So if you've got that commercial awareness, which was, you know, I mentioned when you said what makes a good recruiter, I think that will allow you to say, okay, this market is going through a tough time, I'll cash in while I can, but I need to start thinking about what else is going to be hot, what's coming in. The best way to do, if you're good enough, you should be asking your clients, you should be asking your candidates who, you know, let's be honest, I've been privileged to work with some senior-level people. They obviously know a lot more about the industry than I do. I'm just a young grad calling them from a very fancy office in Cornhill for S3, hey, do you want a new job? But they are the experts, right? So I would be asking those guys, whoever you, whichever market you work in, to learn about what's the next evolving technology that you need to be getting onto.

Love it. Karen, thank you so much.

No, thank you much.

Cheers. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.