Karandeep Sohel - 45% commission, flexible working, & the future of recruitment

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and in this week's episode, I sat down with Karandeep Sohil, who is the founder of a company called Pivot Search. It was the first person we had from Leeds in the podcast studio, and after a decade of working for other people, Karandeep over the last 2 years has been on a journey in building his very own recruitment business. And the real theme of this episode, which I absolutely loved and dug into a lot of detail on, is why Karandeep is so passionate about building a recruitment business that prioritizes its people over profits. The cynicals out there will say, what you on about? You need to be making money and those things. And absolutely. And I really go into detail with Karandeep about what does that actually mean, prioritizing people over profits? What does that look like within the company? What are some of the things that he's investing in? How is he supporting his teams? And how is that impacting performance? Are they making more money? Are they performing better? We discuss it all in this episode, and I really hope you enjoy it. Karandeep, welcome to the podcast.

Hi, thanks for having me, Hishem.

Thank you so much for making the trip from Leeds.

Yeah.

Again, we had— last time I was in here, we had the first Irishman in the studio. Now we've got the first Yorkshireman.

Good to be represented in the world.

Exactly, so really excited for this. I guess just to frame it up for everyone listening, I'm just talking about this, so you've had a really long time in the recruitment industry, over a decade before you started your own sort of entrepreneurial journey. So we are going to touch a little bit on, I guess, what you learned in that period, but we're really going to focus on today your journey as a recruitment entrepreneur, building your recruitment business Pivot. And really talk about the things that you're passionate about and why you're really committed to building a recruitment business that's genuinely different. So I guess where I always like to start though is, is the million-pound question, the question that you've probably really thought long and hard about when hiring for your business. So I'd love to hear sort of your thoughts and takes on what you believe make up a highly successful recruitment consultant in today's market, the traits, the common things that you see in successful people today?

Cool, I think it's a really interesting question to start with, but also, you know, there's the stereotypical answers that you expect, you know, you're looking for somebody driven, committed, tenacious, resilient, you know, you hear those words all the time, but for me, it's actually, I think the thing that differentiates good recruiters from the average or the very good from the good is actually mindset and attitude and ambition. And what you find, what I find is that I consider myself a successful recruiter, but I've also managed a lot of successful recruiters in the past and still do. And I think, yes, they have those traits, but what makes them different is mindset and attitude. And I think the thing that stands out is a lot of very good recruiters know what they want to achieve and then have the reason behind it. And what you find is what they want to achieve is quite ambitious. It tends to reflect what is actually the best version of themselves. What is the best of me? And that's where 'That's what I want to achieve,' and they're very committed, determined in, 'That's what I want to achieve.' When you start to talk to them, they have a reason why, and the why is always different. You know, traditionally, a lot of people tell you, 'Will people just do recruitment for money?' Well, you know, yeah, they do, but there are other reasons. You get to understand why, and suddenly what you find is with the more successful recruiters, they have a very clear picture of what they want to achieve. They have a good reason why. They go, they're quite ambitious and driven, they want to do it, and your job as a leader is actually to do the how, you know.

I love that.

You're there to give them the resources, the tools, the advice, the support, you know, the shoulder to do that. But ultimately, the bit that you find very difficult to influence is the what do you want to achieve and why. I think a lot of recruitment leaders just walk out of target meetings going, yeah, look, we've got them hyped up, they want to achieve this. They walk out and go No, actually I don't want, I've got no real buy-in. It's surface, they walk out and it disappears. But the really good people are telling you, this is what I want to achieve, this is why I want to do it. You give me the how. And that's the difference, having those people who quite clearly know what they want to achieve, they're focused, ambitious, and they really want to do it. That's the difference. You've really got to believe in what you want to achieve and why you want to do it. And what you find is a large percentage of the time they go on to do that because they're driving it, not being told.

I love that. So just on this very quickly, I'm interested to get your thoughts on this. So like you said, as a leader, you'd struggle to influence the why and the sort of picture of what they want to achieve. And your job there is to facilitate the how and educate on that. So I guess for people listening, and I don't know if you did this for yourself and maybe you help your team now, but like, what good quality questions can we ask ourselves to unpack that and uncover what the sort of why is or what it is that we want to achieve, because I think a lot of these things can come from good questions and asking ourselves good questions. So what might be some good questions that we can ask ourselves that can help us arrive at what is it that I want and why?

I think the key to it is not sitting in a meeting and presenting those questions, like you coming into a meeting going, right, Hishem, what do you want to achieve? Because you're going to get a surface-level answer that hasn't had much thought. What you actually want to do is empower your consultants and make sure you're prepping them for the times you want to take time out to understand what they want to achieve. Give them the sort of questions, what, you know, asking them, what do you really want to achieve? Ask them why, what are the drivers? But then actually go on to say, I don't just want you to write down what you're trying to achieve. I actually want you to go away, write down what you want to achieve, but what does it look like? What visually, you know, you achieving your goals, what's it look like? But then go deeper. What does it feel like? Because once, you know, only something like 5% of people achieve their targets if they just write them down. Something like 25 to 30% of people achieve their targets if they visualise them. What does it look like? But it's something like 60 to 70% of people achieve their targets when they can actually write them down, picture them, and feel the emotion of achieving that target. That's actually getting an emotional buy-in. And that isn't just coming from me making that up. We've actually worked, part of our development programme is working with one of the best coaches who's worked with some amazing sports stars, businesses on achieving the best in yourself. And to achieve the best in yourself, you have to, you don't have to just write it. It's about writing it, seeing it, feeling it. And that is how you do it. So, It's difficult to say what particular questions you should ask.

No, I think you've answered that. It's like, I think a good framework there is, yeah, firstly, what is it that you want visually? What is it that you, yeah, you see happening or how you want to see it? And then, yeah, the important question of like, how's that going to make you feel? I think that's a great little framework that people can use.

But I think the bit that I'd add is you've got to take away the fear of consultants coming in or employees coming in and telling you what they feel you want to hear. You've got to let them Say there are no boundaries, there are no parameters of you've got to stay in this. You know, you should feel comfortable saying whatever reason. People may have the most ridiculous things of what they want to achieve and why they want to, but they shouldn't feel embarrassed or feared coming into a meeting to tell you. You know, if that's what drives them, great. You know, they shouldn't feel like, oh, can't say that, or not sure what they'll think.

Or say things that you want to hear. Yeah. That's a great point. Thank you for adding that. Okay, so I guess I just have one question for you. A lot of recruiters listen to this who are aspiring to be in the top 10% of their business, want to have the best possible recruitment career they can. So obviously, before you started Pivot, you worked for a couple of different brands over just over a decade, and from what I saw on LinkedIn, on both occasions you got to the head of position. So I guess in hindsight, what I'd just be good just to get your thoughts on, an anecdote on, is Looking back, what is it that you think that you did that enabled you to get to that point? And I guess just any sort of thoughts or notes on, for people listening to this who really want to maximise the opportunity they have in an employer that's going to give them the progression opportunities that could enable them to get to that head of position, for people listening, yeah, so thoughts on how can people really maximise the opportunity they have in a recruitment company and how you think you did that?

I think that probably the first thing I'd talk about is actually don't be afraid to be pushed out of your comfort zone. When I first stepped into management, probably just over 10 years ago, it came about in a real unexpected fashion. It's quite a funny story. My manager at the time was working for a business that wasn't particularly performing well. My manager went into a management meeting, was supposed to go out on a work football trip, taking a team to Germany, CEO asked him, do you really think you should be going? And he ummed and ahhed and went, yeah, I think we should go. And CEO obviously thought differently and decided that's it, it's time for a management change, and came to me and said, well, I want you to head up that oil and gas division. And sat there looking, going, shit, I don't— I've not managed before. I'm 2, 3 years into my career, you know, and it's not— I wouldn't say it's necessarily been a lightning start to recruitment, but I was pushed out my comfort zone and given the reassurance that actually you can do it, give it a go, what is the worst that can happen, you know? And I think that is really important, that at times you'll be pushed out of your comfort zone. I think you've got to take those opportunities, but also on the proviso that there is the support and reassurance there that actually, yeah, we're pushing you out, but we will support you, we will make it as comfortable an experience as possible. And I think don't be afraid to step out of your comfort zone is really important. But also, you've got to embrace change, evolution. You've got to be flexible. You know, the longer you're stuck in your ways and fail to adapt to the team that you're managing, the people that you're managing, the harder it is. Because one thing I found is you've constantly got to be thinking about, well, what's working right that's brilliant, but what, not necessarily what's not working, but what could I, what can we do better? How can we evolve to continue moving forward? And I think that's got to be the mindset of a good manager, a good leader, is somebody who is prepared to try things but also prepared to accept that not everything you try is going to work. So how do you make it work? You don't give up on it. I'd say they're really important traits that have helped me get to where I am. And also I think it's really important to listen to the people around you, not just the people above you but the people that you manage. You've got to really understand your team and I think probably in the last, I'd say certainly in the last couple of years of Pivot, you was actually a core value of ours but the length to which I actually understand my staff, get to know my staff, helps me actually manage them so that they get the best out of themselves. So, you know, don't think that as a manager, as a leader, it's just about shouting orders out and actually handing out tasks and telling people to do things. It's also about understanding your team and understanding they are individuals and working out how do you get the best out of different people because there is definitely no one-size-fits-all policy.

No, I love that, some great things in there. So yeah, leaning into getting out of your comfort zone, leaning into opportunities that you get given and sort of trusting that you'll, yeah, hopefully thrive or at least, yeah, lean into the opportunities that you get. Yeah, I love the point around, uh, just, yeah, being really open-minded to how you've done things in the past and how things could maybe evolve and change. And yeah, just, just be a really good listener, and I guess just don't think you know it all. Yeah, so yeah, I love that. So I guess let's go into your entrepreneurial journey then. So I guess what, what, where I'd like to start is, because look, I know how passionate you are about building a brand that's genuinely different, okay? And I guess where I wanted to start was a lot of people start their recruitment businesses by saying we're going to do it differently. How many people actually do it differently? Not sure.

Very, very few.

Yeah, so I wanted to just get your first take on like, again, just thinking about your past experiences, what is it that you took from those experiences, pros and cons that you're like, right, I'm going to take these parts, I'm not going to do these parts, and these are the things that I'm going to make sure I deliver on in Pivot and why? I think obviously a lot of people will take all these different experiences, you know what, I really like what they did there, I'm definitely not going to do that. So just keen to get your initial thoughts when you thought about your business. What were the things that you were really going to commit to, and what are the things that you definitely wanted to avoid? And it'd be just good to understand why, that you would have taken from these different experiences that you had.

I think the big commitment from my side was, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be a genuinely different search firm, and I am going to do it. And I think the most important thing is it comes from the leadership, it comes from me, If I don't champion it, if I don't embrace it, I don't practice it, it won't happen. And I think the other important thing for me was, as well as taking the good bits, and I think that's something that I've done probably certainly over the last 6, 7, 8 years is actually work out what are the good bits, what are the bits worth keeping, what are the bits worth investing in and making better. But I think probably what's more influential is Learning. People talk about learning from my mistakes, but I'd actually talk about learning more from my experiences. I worked in recruitment 15 years ago when, you know, it was a very stereotypical industry. You know, people wore the three-piece suits, the pinstripe suits. It was a bit boiler room, Wolf of Wall Street, micromanaged, blanket KPIs. And you've got to learn from that experience and go, well, what doesn't work? And I think that's got to be a big driver, is not looking at what the that I made, but what was it I didn't like? What was it that, do you know what, in the modern-day workplace doesn't work?

So what were some of those things there?

I'd say micromanagement.

Yeah.

You know, and micromanagement's just blanket KPIs. Everybody has to do the same number of e-shots, everybody has to make the same number of calls. We used to have phone times when I first started, which to be honest were the biggest waste of time ever because the people at the top, you know, got a bottle of wine at the end of each week, but also people were sat ringing the talking clock or their mum on a Friday afternoon just to get to that level. But I think the big things are that there was a big culture where people— or sorry, employees of the business— were just treated like revenue-generating cogs in a machine. They weren't treated as people, and I think it's really, really important to treat people as people, value them as people. You know, there wasn't a culture or a mentality to be able to talk about mental health. There certainly was no support for mental health at that point or consideration for it. It was literally, you come to work, do the job, or you get shouted at. There wasn't an investment in technology. There wasn't, you know, there was zero flexibility. You know, you worked 60, 70-hour weeks, and do you know what, if you didn't cut the mustard, you were made to feel like shit. Openly in front of the office, you'd be chastised. And, you know, all of that experience, you look at it and go, well, I went through that. And do you know what? It wasn't good for me. It wasn't good for many people in the business. It certainly didn't bring the best out of people. So they're the things that I'm going to push out. And also the way that businesses were led, you know, and I think still to this day there are businesses like that where, you know, The recruitment owners cream the profits, they drive around in the Ferraris, and, you know, the people at the top of the business get the holidays and the incentives. But do you know what? The people who are doing well, achieving what they should be achieving in the middle, are left and forgotten. And you talk to people in these businesses and they're like, you know, blanket KPIs, micromanagement still exist, and Do you know what? People love you if you hit your targets and you're doing well, but if not, you're made to feel like dirt. And you could be the top biller in the business, but you might have missed target last month or blank last month, and you're still made to feel like crap. It's a very short-termistic view of managing people. I think the way that I manage now is largely influenced by the things that previous leaders and managers did badly as opposed to did well.

Thank you for sharing that. So I guess this is— let's start then with Obviously you've got it on your website, you obviously make it very clear on LinkedIn around the— you very much, like you said, value people over profit. So let's just— obviously I do feel like, and I told you about this, that there's some more and more, I feel, recruitment companies are leading with that approach. Some people were cynical about it in terms of hearing that, it's like, okay, what do you actually do? So I guess it'd be good just to hear your thoughts on that. Okay, when you actually say that, How does that actually manifest in your business and in the context of a recruitment business? When you say we value people over profit, what does that actually mean? Give us some examples of, yeah, the things that you, you think that sort of really demonstrate that.

I think to start with, from the leadership, you've got to buy into—

yeah, you've got to believe it.

You've got to believe, live and breathe.

It's got to come through you, it's authentic. It can't just be like we're doing this because it's going to make us different. 100%.

Yeah, there's a lot of businesses that market themselves as something, you go work for them and they're not. So that's rule number 1, you actually practice what you preach, you say what you do.

And that's all come from you, the leadership team, everyone, yeah, definitely.

But the way that we've broken it down is, I looked at the first question I asked myself is, you know, before I look at what I want to change, why do I want to change it? Because for me, it's time for recruitment to evolve, break the stereotypes, the stigmas that we've just talked about that still exists. And I think the first thing to do is a change of mindset as a leader. A lot of recruitment leaders are fixated on where people work, when people work, um, and for me, we've moved away from that. My mindset is actually on the deliverables. Let's look at what people want to achieve. My conversation with any consultant joining the business, um, at the beginning of the year, at the half point in the year, What do you want to achieve? And, you know, there's got to be a mutuality agreement that we want to achieve above a certain point. But ultimately, you know, once you tell me you want to achieve that, I'm actually fixated on helping you achieve that. I'm not fixated on where you work, when you work, what you do with your working day. So flexibility is a massive thing for me. So we operate a system of working when you want to work. So that's 7 days a week. You can work when you want. If you prefer to work on a Sunday as opposed to Friday, go do it, you know. Where you work— does it matter whether you're working in an office? Does it matter whether you're working from home? Does it matter that you're working from a coffee shop? You could be working on holiday, you know. I had somebody ask me, well, I want to go to South America. If I get an Airbnb, can I work from South America for 3 months? And I said, well, you know, as long as you realize you are working, go for it, you know. And why should it matter when you work, the hours you work, you know? It should actually be about the deliverables. It should be certainly about the fact that let's focus on you achieving what you want to achieve and move away from being fixated on those things. I think innovation is really, really important. And I'd start by talking innovatively managing people, you know, the way in which I believe is the right way to doing things is giving people, you know, trust, autonomy, flexibility, which are 3 of our core values and living by them. So I catch up with people on a Monday and I want to catch up as a person, not what business have you got, what revenue's coming in, what are you doing this week in terms of KPIs, how's your weekend, what have you been up to. I actually want to understand people. It enables you to support people, if you actually can engage with them. And then, you know, what do you want to achieve for the week? Right, my job's to support you, but I am going to let you go get on with it. But I'm here to support you, whether it's something little, you know, you might be frustrated with a search and, you know, you're at the end of your tether with it. Just all you need to do is drop me a message and go, 'Caz, can I have some help with this?' It could be a bigger issue, it could be, you know, a process that's got issues, it could be a client that's been difficult, you know, but You've got to be approachable as a manager, but what you find is that if people are approaching you for a call and saying this, it actually matters to them, and you're not having to micromanage the hell out of them. I don't— there is no benefit in me ringing them every morning, every afternoon. You know, a lot of those meetings are pointless. We don't do them, and I find people are more productive. From an innovative perspective, I really want to move forward. Instead of, you know, traditionally when consultants position themselves to clients and candidates, how are you a specialist? Oh well, I've placed with companies A, B, and C, and I've filled roles X, Y, and Z. I can't put them together for confidentiality, and also they're a bit made up. Whereas I actually want to change the way that recruiters market themselves and make them genuine key people of influence. And the way that requires an investment, it comes back to prioritising people over profits. You can't prioritize people without compromising something, and that's profitability, because I'm investing in them, I'm putting money into them. So making people key people of influence where they're genuinely increasing their credibility, their visibility, their reputation in the market. So when the client says, well, how are you a key person of influence? Well, let me show you some of the marketing collateral that I've produced in your market, talking to your peers, your competitors, people in your business about what's going on in your market. I can genuinely show that I'm deeply embroiled in the market, and people in the market— directors, VPs, senior-level management— are prepared to create collateral, put their name, put their company's name to it. And that's how I'm a key person of influence, you know, as opposed to the answer that you've been taught for 10, 15 years. But also making sure that people have the tools. You know, we are a smaller business, but I'm not afraid to invest in tech as long as it has a reason, it has a purpose, and it adds value. So one of the ways that we've really maximised this is by partnering with businesses. Instead of, you're a supplier to me, you supply product X, Y, and Z, that's it, we actually treat our suppliers as partners. We'll work with them to maximise the benefit, and they're deeply bought into us because, you know, we'll provide them all the testimonials in the world because they're doing a great job for us. But equally as much they're helping the consultants maximise it. So having a tech stack that actually delivers value internally and externally is how we're innovative. And I think the other piece that is really important is that we've created a culture and an environment that really embraces mental health. You know, it's not just about providing support, you've got to have an environment where employees feel comfortable talking about mental health. You know, recruitment puts a lot of strain on you and You are a person, not an employee. You know, there are things going on at home in people's lives that have a massive strain on their mental health. They can't have a button or a switch that turns it off when they walk in the office. And we've created an environment where if you talk about mental health— I'm not saying openly to the whole business on Slack, having a tough time— but come to me and talk about mental health, I'm not going to put a mark against their name and go, oh shit, you know what, we're going to have to manage them out. You know, I'm gonna have to watch out. It's actually right. Let's help them, let's support them, let's, you know, give them the empathy that they deserve and understanding that, you know, this thing's going on, how can I help you, how can I support you? But going on beyond that, we actually use a third-party partner who is an employee wellbeing practitioner. They provide confidential advice, people can ring them. I don't necessarily know who rings them unless people tell me, and they have professional advice. So sometimes it gets to a point where People come to me and I'm pushing them on saying, I don't know quite what the answer is and I don't, I think it's too important to second-guess the answer. Go on to our mental health practitioner, speak to them, talk to them. Don't worry, we'll pay for that, but I want to make sure you're okay. But it all starts from having that culture. It's okay to not be okay. It's okay to talk about mental health. And I think what we've done is we've packaged it up as an employee offering that isn't just about flexibility, that isn't just about innovation, that isn't about wellbeing. It's actually about a complete employee offering without compromise. You know, the other thing we had to think about is people do the job for money. We wanted to have the strongest commission structure that's actually achievable, that isn't just on paper looks good but impossible to achieve in practice. So that is how we are different, that we offer a lot to our employees, but they know they're not compromised. They can literally achieve more money with Pivot than they can anywhere else.

Right, so there's a couple things we're going to go into. Thank you for sharing all that. So I want to— I just— the first, the first thing is, let me— I'll just ask you the direct question. I was going to ask you that. I had that obviously. You sort of make it clear that you have one of the, the best commission structures out there. What is that?

So we've got a commission structure where You can take home 45% upwards of your revenue generated in total earnings. So making that clear, that's your basic salary, commission, and bonus. We don't have any time parameters on that, so we don't stick 4-week period limitations, quarterly limitations, half-year limitations. It's quite simple. If you generate the revenue, you will take home commission, take home great earnings. You know, there are not— there are very few, if any, 150K billers who earn 68K.

Very, very— basically, depending on what you bill, you take 45%.

No, so you have your basic salary and then you have your commission based around your basic salaries. It is also a very fair structure, so you can look at two people who are sat next to each, they can look each other in the eye, if they've both billed £200k, they both know they've earned £94k. If they've written £250k, they've earned £120k.

Okay.

So there is a little bit of change in the early parts of the commission structure depending on your base, but Overall, when you come to the end of the year, you will have taken home 45% plus of what you've earned compared to the traditional 30-33%.

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Absolutely, it's really important. I think you'd be naive not to ask that question because not everything goes amazingly to plan. And I think the big— the first question to ask yourself is why. Well, I don't ask myself the question, I'll ask them why. Why, why are you where you are at the moment? Okay, what, what's You know, what do you feel isn't quite going right? What do you feel could help and support you? But equally as much, I think the big thing for me is attitude. Do you know, if somebody is really championing, embracing the values, showing commitment to the business and showing that, do you know what, I appreciate that it's not quite where I need to be or where I'd like to be, but I'm working hard, I'm committed, I'm listening to you, and I'm putting into place what we are trying to help you, how we're supporting you.

But what are the tangibles on that? Because like, that's quite— how do you, how do you, how can you record, like, do you know what I mean? How do— what are some of the— sure, are you looking at first stage interviews being booked? I don't know, there's got to be some tangibles in there that give you that confidence.

It depends what, what's going wrong. If, if it's, you know, a lack of vacancies, so I'd be keeping in touch with that person and I'd talk them through, well, it's not— let's not just look at vacancies, get more vacancies. Let's actually break it down. Let's go beneath the surface. What do you need to do to get more vacancies? How can we be innovative? How can we think outside of the box? We're challenged to get more vacancies, and these are the things that I think we need to be looking at, right? And naturally say, look, like, let's set your wins for a week or a period or a quarter or a half year focusing on this. Let's don't focus on the end goal. Let's move away from focusing on revenue. Ultimately, revenue is the end goal, I get that. But, you know, if you're fixated on revenue but you're not doing the right things beneath the surface, let's try and get those right. And what's important to me is if somebody goes away and really works hard at that and is doing the right things, is coming back to me and saying, well, this is working, that's not working, you know what, you're likely to help them and support them to get there. But equally as much, if people don't have the commitment and don't have the attitude and don't embrace the values of the business. And quite frankly, they're telling you, well, I don't care. They're the people that you're having conversations of, you know, I don't think Pivot's probably the right place for you because you're not going to achieve your goals. And, you know, your part of the jigsaw in the business isn't going to be achieved. And Yeah, that's not fair on me, but that's not fair on the rest of the business.

Sure.

The rest of the business who are either achieving their goals, exceeding their goals, or making sure they're doing everything to get as close to their goals as possible. Why should they be held back and have to ask the question, well, what's so-and-so doing in the business? And that's the important thing, you know. Yes, when things don't go to plan, we put things right. We've— I've got bags of experience. I've taken so many people in the past through challenging times. You know, recruitment is notorious. It has its highs, but it has its lows. If people are willing to be supported, take that on board, and actually put in the commitment, the hard work that takes you back to the highs, great, I'm all for it. But, you know, if you're just on the pivot ride for a good basic salary and quite frankly sticking two fingers up at the rest of the business, you know, unfortunately you're not right, I think. And that goes, that extends beyond what I look for in a consultant, it's not just revenue, you know, you could have a 350, 400K biller, but if they're completely disruptive and stick two fingers up at the champion. Yeah, you know, no matter what their revenue is, it's actually destructive to the business, and that's probably as destructive as, more destructive than your underperformer. Yeah, your underperformer if you people look at them and go, I can see they're doing it, they're more likely to pull in support from the team. You know, I'll help you. Whereas the person who doesn't care, do you know what, people will push them away and go, I'm not wasting my time there.

Okay, so let— I just want to frame this up for people listening because— and then a couple of questions. So how this— I know this isn't all about revenue, but I think it's important for people to see how this is sort of played out. So I've got here, when we prepare for this, obviously, end of year 1, ended around the sort of £650K revenue mark because of 6 of you. Obviously you're on your, when's the end of your second year?

September, so we've got last quarter of the year.

Last quarter, so last quarter of the year, should be finishing on 8 people, you're 8 people today.

Yep.

Yeah, and then on track to do £1 to £1.2 million turnover, right? So what I wanted to ask you is a couple of things just around this as we come to the end here. So I guess firstly, you've been really positive about it and these things, so the question I want to ask you first is, With this approach, with this intention around the type of recruitment business you want to build and the type of people you want to employ and support, what have been, in these 2 years, what have been the biggest challenges with that approach that maybe you under— you didn't anticipate? Yeah, talk to us about some of the challenges with this, because some people listening to this may want to approach it like this and really like intend to grow a culture like this within their recruitment business, but maybe have concerns or worried about certain things. So what have been some of the biggest challenges that maybe you didn't plan for?

I think probably the biggest challenge that I didn't plan for is people not believing what we say we do, we deliver on.

Okay.

That a lot of people, when I market Pivot externally to consultants, they'll ask them, ask me, well, it looks too good to be true. You know, I've been earning approximately a third of what I generate in revenue, and you're telling me that I can increase my earnings by 20 or 30 grand. That's a hell of a lot of money, but I don't understand it because they're fixed in the mindset of being in that business where it's profits over people. And also not just the revenue side of it and the earnings side of it, but people don't believe that you can have that level of flexibility, that level of innovation, support, and benefits. You know, as a business, we offer a lot. So I think that's probably the big one, and that's something that over time I think will change. The more people are talking about Pivot, more I do things like this. That suddenly people start to think, well, it must be true. And suddenly, as you get more, you know, people joining from businesses, they suddenly start to say, do you know what, it is true and it happens. And people start talking, and this is almost like a—

yeah, sure. So obviously, yeah, that's fair. I'm not surprised by that. So people being cynical about— yeah, okay, sounds great, but is it true? But give me some in-the-business stuff. That's what people would find useful.

I think that in-the-business stuff, um, obviously I think the tough stuff is the post-COVID world that we've been in. For obviously the first year of the business, we were largely in lockdowns, restrictions, and things like that. We went through, we became sort of very routine, structured as individuals. So we'd wake up, have our breakfast, work, lunch, work, back downstairs. To actually get people to really embrace and use the structure of flexibility, you have to really encourage it. You have to do it yourself to show that it's not, you know, a trick. But getting people to use that. But I think from a management side, which I think is sort of what you really want to know, is I think the big thing that you've had to learn is you've got to be adaptable, you've got to be flexible, but you've got to go in with a committed mindset. I do want to implement this and I am going to implement this, but not everything I do is going to work 100%. You have to be prepared to constantly evaluate, analyze, assess. So and change. Don't give up on something because it didn't work first time. And the really important thing is, as you're changing, it's really important to listen to your employees. They are the biggest barometer of whether something is working or not. Go to them for ideas, go to them and ask them. Don't be afraid to get criticism, but you've got to create a culture and an environment where if people come back with critical feedback that is constructive but not necessarily positive You can't, you know, put a mark against them. You've got to actually go, okay, I take it on board. What do you think we could do to change it? Or, I think we could do this, what do you think? But you've got— don't be afraid to listen to your employees and stick to what you want to do, but change it and evolve.

How do you intentionally do that? Do you use any tools or anything like that? Because it'd be— it's one thing to say, yeah, you can come and speak to me about challenges, but it's a whole nother thing people having the courage to say to their boss that, like, 'You know, this thing that you keep doing, I'm not a fan of it.' Like, that's— do you use like tools and anonymous surveys to get a barometer of that, or—

use surveys? Definitely, that's a really good thing. But a massive one is creating that openness environment where people don't feel afraid to come and talk to you about things. You know, I constantly will ask the question, 'Are you okay with this? How are you finding this?' When you're implementing change, specifically ask, 'How are you finding it?' Something Some people say, great, it's going really well, but I think if you create the mentality of— I'm all for you telling me that something's not working or give me negative feedback, but also throw some solutions at me. Don't be a whinger, be actually somebody who is driving change. Use third-party consultancies where possible, you know, use independent people. So for example, we're about to go through a massive revamp of our benefits package. You know, what we offer earnings-wise is amazing, what we offer in terms of flexibility, innovation, all of that's brilliant, but I want our benefits package to be amazing. I want it to be, you know, people wow again, asking how can you do that? And there are two key things that I think are important. I'm bringing in a workplace well-being and culture specialist who's going to run a session with the rest of the business and myself coming with ideas of what benefits would you like to see. Don't be afraid to bring a benefit to the table, but using people to say, do you know what, I want an outsider's opinion, because ultimately as a leader you live in a box.

Yeah.

You know, the way you evolve and progress, you've got to be willing to let people in from the outside and take on board what they say. They may say things that you don't you hadn't thought, offer you a different perspective, but sometimes they then explain it and it's like, yeah, that makes sense.

So I guess as we come to the end here, just a couple things. So we've spoken a lot about how this could probably help you grow your business and hire people, but I guess how has this approach and this intention around the business that you want to build actually manifested in with your customers, with your candidates? Like, have you also found that obviously your intention was to be a genuine different employer, but has that actually ended up then manifesting in the companies that you speak to? I don't know, and have you found that they've gone, you know what, Kaz, this is actually a really interesting approach, we like— I don't know, I'm just interested if this has also impacted the commercials of like winning customers and those things, if they've resonated with what you're trying to build. I don't know, how's that played out?

Absolutely, I think from a customer perspective, um, A, some customers are interested. They'll ask, why are you different? You know, they'll look at the website and go, it's quite different. Like, how are you different? And they are interested in the fact that we are bucking the trend, and sometimes it aligns with what our clients do. We work with some clients who themselves are trying to buck the trend in the industry, be leaders, be entrepreneurial, and they're interested. Like, we want to partner with a business like you. That's also reflected in our suppliers that we partner with, that they're like, we want to work with you. You know, you're actually one of our smaller businesses, but we're really bought into you, and we're not going to treat you as a small business client. We're actually going to treat you as an enterprise client or an SME client, because you know what, you're not afraid to try different things. You're not afraid to push us to the limits in terms of what you can offer. But I think our clients have also seen a benefit, um, in the sense that the employees, the consultants in the business, enjoy working for the business because they've got a better work-life balance. They You know, they talk about the fact that, you know, they were doing things they enjoy. They're encouraged to do things they enjoy at any time in the day. It really doesn't matter. They're happier, so they're more motivated when they actually are working, and that's reflected in the delivery. You know, we are delivering solutions faster and better to our clients, and also the clients are really benefiting from the innovation. We've had really, really positive feedback in terms of how we've integrated video tech innovatively. And I'm not talking about we offer you a Zoom room to do your interviews, we've been doing that for years since COVID started, but using video tech to engage with our candidates, our clients, using video tech to add value to interview processes to make them more streamlined, more effective. Client feedback's been phenomenal, you know, it's really cool, you know, when you've got a VP of a major international oil and gas business saying that was really cool and different because I'd sent a video message to engage with him, I'd utilized video in various parts of an, well, an assignment, and they're telling you it's cool, they like it, they're seeing the benefits. We're seeing, you know, everybody's suffering from candidate scarcity at the moment, and we are trying to reach out to candidates in different ways using tech, and it's working. You know, we're not reliant purely on LinkedIn like a lot of recruiters. We've had candidates engage with us and they've said, what 'Why have you engaged with us?' 'Well, I'm tired of just getting LinkedIn messages, but I got, I got this from you and it made me curious and I wanted to reach out to you, so I did.' So it's definitely not just internal benefits that we're seeing from the way that we work and we're doing things. Ultimately, we're seeing external benefits where our clients, our candidates, our companies we partner are benefiting. And overall, what that means is actually the consultants who are joining us are doing better than they were in their old place, but they're not working harder, longer hours, and that's the reason why. It's actually because we're innovating, we're investing in them, and they're reaping the benefits of that.

Khaz, look, I think, um, look, kudos to you to really committing to this. I think it could be very easy to go back to your old ways, right, or just go back to the environment that you've known for however many years. So yeah, definitely just want to say kudos to you to really committing to that, and I generally feel like hopefully like more and more recruitment companies can build environments like this where, like you said, they really put as much investment as they do in their people as they do into growing the bottom line. So thank you so much for joining me, I really appreciate it, been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you, really enjoyed being here and really enjoyed the opportunity of chatting with you, Hishem.

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