Karl Penhale - Do you know what your Drivers are?

This is the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I am joined by Karl Penhal, who is a principal consultant for Austin Fraser. And we are in the very big WeWork in Paddington. Very impressed.

Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's a pretty big one.

I mean, I did a tweet recently where I said I'm getting less and less unexcited to go to WeWorks because it's like same furniture same vibe. Yeah, just starting to not enjoy it as much. I've lost the buzz a bit, but I don't know, I've actually got a bit of the buzz back for this one because it's huge.

Yeah, they're, um, to be fair, WeWork are a pretty good, I guess, partner of ours. We've got offices all over the world now. Really? We use, uh, WeWorks pretty much in every sort of country and state in America, I think, if I'm right in saying. And yeah, this one, this one's pretty cool. It services us quite well at the moment.

That must be a very big bill.

Yeah, I can imagine it is. I can imagine.

Um, wicked, mate. Well, look, as, as you know, we always like to start, Carl, how did you enter the world of recruitment, mate?

It's a really good question. So I guess to give a little bit of a background, sort of finished off college, had no idea what I wanted to do, um, was a, a pretty avid cricketer, so moved to South Africa.

How did you get into cricket? Because I think cricket's terrible.

So once again, really funny actually. I used to be football mad and I was walking to football training once, uh, walked across a cricket pitch and probably like one of those films you'd see where a ball rolls at your feet and then literally threw it back and was hooked. And that was probably, probably 10 or 11 years old and then just, yeah, fell into it. So played cricket, was fortunate enough to sort of do that to a pretty high level, um, lived all around the world. South Africa, lived in India for a while, Dubai I spent time in. Yeah, that's really cool. Um, and And then, um, money in cricket is not the best. So was that—

yeah, that's the thing. I guess it's the same as football as well, isn't it? It's like there's this fantasy of like you want to be a professional, make it a pro, but it's that top, top, top, top 5%, 10% that actually get to the point where it's like, I'm set.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, I was fortunate enough to play at sort of quite a high standard, but I mean, unless you're, you know, on the TV every day and playing for England, that's sort of where, you know, the, the big money is. But in compare— in comparison to football you know, even the top footballers— sorry, top cricketers will earn maybe 1% of what a pro footballer will earn. Yeah, it's really, you know, nowhere near as high. So was playing cricket, really enjoying it. And then I'm trying to think now, probably around like 21, 22, one of my very close friends, guy, Ashley Blanchard, um, was working for Austin Fraser, had done a similar sort of journey to me through cricket, um, joined Austin Fraser and sort of went from trainee to senior to principal within about 18 months. And we were walking around the, uh, the boundary, uh, one day, and he, you know, boundary, the boundary, as you do, eating some cucumber sandwiches. But no, walking around, and we just sort of got onto the discussion of, you know, what I was up to. Cricket was probably, you know, coming to an end. I was, you know, trying to earn as much money as possible, so I was actually working as a scaffolder on the side as well.

No respect.

So, um, and then he said, well, look, we're— I work for this company, Austin Fraser. We're about, you know, 40, 40 people now. We're growing. Why don't you come in for a chat? And it kind of combined everything that I thought I wanted to do, really. It was— I was always like, what, what do you like doing? I love speaking to people. I love, you know, I always sort of had that, you know, ambition of, you know, the hustle and bustle of like London or an office job or something. So Yeah, went in and had a chat, and I guess the rest was history, really. I joined Austin Fraser September— well, it'd be 5 years in September.

So just to make it crystal clear, you've had— you've got into recruitment and you've stayed at Austin Fraser for the last 5, nearly 5 years.

Yeah.

And that's been the only recruitment business you've worked for?

The only sales experience. I mean, I was a barman for a little while, so I sold pints, but apart from that, yeah, yeah, the only recruitment or sales experience I've ever had. Yeah. Wow.

No, I'm excited to, um, unpack that journey. I think that that's generally really impressive and amazing that you've been part of the business journey and been with one business for so long, because you know how it is, like so many people end up with recruitment for a year, 2 years, sometimes less, and then they're moving and they move again.

Yeah.

So I guess firstly, like, what, how, what was your perception of recruitment then as you're walking around the boundary?

It sounds like—

what was your perception?

I guess if I'm completely honest, if I think about 5 years ago, LinkedIn wasn't as, you know, prominent then. My activity on LinkedIn wasn't. So I guess my perception of recruitment was what I knew from my friend Ashley. It was, you know, I guess a sales-orientated job. And I guess if you think about it in the nicest possible way, it was like glorified, you know, people traffickers. You bought, you know, you know what I mean? You know, people want, you know, whether they be developers or whatever industry, and that's what you do. That was really my perception. I guess I didn't really ever think, you know, the intricacies of it and how it actually works. I think the way in which Austin Fraser sold it, I think that I actually, you know, bought into Austin Fraser straight away because I went in there and I sat down with a group of 6 of us. And if I'm thinking around the same 6 there, 5 of them are still with the business now, which speaks testament.

Yeah, of course it does.

And they were all people that were sort of similar backgrounds, you know, come from a sporting background. We all had similar, you know, interests.

So I don't all like cricket, did you?

Yeah, a lot of us do play cricket, a lot of golfers. Um, you know, you have the notorious Wim recruitment, either estate agent background or people that used to maybe sell gym memberships or whatever it was. But I guess they just sold it to me in terms of, you know, you don't need to necessarily have any experience, we've got the tools and the resources to give you everything you need.

Yeah, I like that.

And I guess my driver to get into recruitment, uh, as it was playing cricket and scaffolding, was to earn money, you know. And they said we've got the tools to make you earn over 100 grand a year. Yeah, um, you know, and, and, you know, they have.

So wicked, mate. Well, so being there for 5 years, let's just, let's just frame it up a bit more for everyone listening. So, um, what, what have you all— what markets do you, uh, recruit in?

Cool. So I guess that's a little bit of a journey. So when I first started Austin Fraser, we were obviously a lot smaller, but our model, for people that don't know, is we're it-specific recruitment, and we have vertical market consultants. So ultimately, um, we have different teams. So in our business right now, we have a Thames Valley team. Our head office is in Reading, so we have a team that services Oxford, Reading, um, the sort of Bristol Southwest area. And we have the team that I sit on that service London. Um, within my London team, we've got a sort of a subsection, one that does just contract recruitment, okay, and one that just does perm.

Yeah.

And then once again, within that, you have vertical market consultants. So for example, I've got a colleague that just does Python contract in London. I've got another colleague that does Python permanent. Yeah, so Python is, um, for those that don't know as well, it's like a programming language. So basically whatever skill set or technology or coding language that's used, we normally have someone that just recruits for that area. Um, I guess that's how we've sort of grown.

Super specialist.

Yeah, we've grown our specialism not just within like a technology stack as it were, but then within either contract or perm as well.

Okay, and you've Always been in contract?

Always contract. Um, I think probably like most recruiters and maybe contract, I've done a couple of perm deals that have sort of, you know, happened along the way, but very much my— I'd say my bread and butter is contract recruitment.

And then, so, and then within the niches that Austin Fraser operate in, then did you— so did you start in a different niche to what you do now? Yeah. And then we'll talk about sort of how things went.

Yeah. So I very first— when I very first started, I did Java, which, uh, a backend programming language. So I did Java contract London Um, I did that. You'll probably go on to a minute. I did, uh, I did very well to start off with, so a deal in a week and a half of starting, really, um, having no sales experience. And, you know, thought, I've smashed it, you know, I've completed recruitment. We'll go on to it in a bit. But then, uh, but then blanked and didn't do a deal for 7 months. But no, started off doing Java contracts, uh, probably after about 8 or 9 months moved over to the Python market.

Okay.

Um, which is, uh, once again another backend programming language, Python. Contract London. Um, I did that for probably around 2 and a half years. I'm trying to think now. Yeah, uh, I then actually moved over to Denver. Yeah, um, in America, Austin Fraser have now got 5, soon to be 6 offices in America. Yeah, so I was fortunate enough to move over to Denver, live there for a year, and help set up the office there. Once again, uh, still focused on the contract model, um, that the American sort of business has. I moved back to the UK in May, and I'm now leading the JavaScript technology side of our business, but once again through contract.

Okay, cool. No, thanks for that. That's perfect. So let's, um, what I always like to talk about— obviously you gave us a bit of a flavor there, but I always like to uncover those first 12 months because, um, bloody hard work in it, those first 12 months. Yeah, I've had my own experience with that. So, so you went into the, the, the contract piece, right? Um, and obviously, as you said, made a deal in the first week and a half. Yeah, cheers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, was it like proper easy placement?

Oh, completely. I mean, if anyone ever tells you that anything in their first, I would say probably 6 months of recruitment, they've done on purpose, I think they're talking shit. A lot of it is, you know, right place, right time, luck, who you're working with. So it was a, you know, a counterpart of mine, so someone that did Java, Perm, London. Called a client, they needed a contractor. I was walked through taking a job spec, you know, thrown in at the deep end. So, you know, sometimes now it's like, cool, well, you know, your manager would take it, but throwing at the deep end. So I guess, you know, I had some touching points with it, then went out and recruited the role, found a candidate, um, that, uh, I think the candidate was actually referred to me by someone else. Oh, why don't you try this guy? Um, and yeah, it went from there. So it was very much right place, right time. Um, but yeah, you know, I think, I think it was a week and 4 days um, from, you know, starting to forget our first deal there to ringing the bell. Yep. I, um, you know, I don't know, many companies will probably do deal tunes or something like that. Um, I remember spending the whole of Friday not doing a single bit of work and trying to think about what my deal tune could be, and to this day I still can't remember what it was. Um, so, so yeah, it was a bit of an interesting one but valuable, uh, a bit of experience, positive, and I guess, you know, what to follow.

So then 7 months months after that, back to back, you didn't make one placement?

Roughly, yeah. I did try and have a little look before, before I, uh, before I came this evening, but yeah, yeah, roughly it was, it was definitely a good, you know, 5, 6, 7 months with nothing. Yeah.

How'd you deal with that?

Um, probably a few tantrums. Uh, I think if you were to speak to some of my colleagues, you know, once again, lucky enough they're still working for the business now, um, there were definitely some tough times.

Yeah.

But I think, um, what really helped me was a colleague of mine, Dan Filmer, who is still with the business now. We started a month apart. Um, he's getting married next month and we're off to that in Dublin. We, we've had a sort of really great relationship, and I would advise people if they're, if they're going down that journey of latching on to the people and the colleagues that you work with, because those are the sort of people that will get you through it. So Dan Dan was on a bit of a different trajectory. He sort of joined the business and, you know, was very successful like I was at the beginning, but just sort of carried on. Um, and me and Dan have had a similar journey where when he was doing well, I wasn't, and likewise, he would drop off potentially a little bit and I would do well. So what we've, you know, I dealt with that 6 or 7 month period by, you know, speaking to the people that were doing well, picking their brains on sort of what stuff they were doing. Um, I mean, I've got to give a shout out, Austin Fraser were brilliant. I think there's lots of sales companies that you know, 2 or 3 months without a deal, you know, you're, uh, you're out the door.

Yeah.

Um, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, skill and will. Do you have the skill to something? Do you have the will to do it? I think when you start as a trainee, you know, unless you're— you know, I have the will. Yeah, you don't have the skill. You know, I think anyone that comes in, like I said, and does something in their first 6 months, a lot of it's luck.

Yeah.

But what I did have is I had the will to learn. I had a good team around me. We've got a brilliant L&D function, Austin Fraser, that helped me.

And, you know, slowly but what did you do for the rest couple of months then, leading up to the sort of year mark?

Yeah, so at the end of that, I hit my first holiday incentive.

Okay.

Um, so I guess it was a bit of, you know, learning over those 6 months. I also then moved market to Python.

Okay.

Which was a little bit more of an established market, you know, it was a bit warmer, there was a, there was a few existing clients and stuff we had. But I think that journey over the 6 months to really, you know, identify what my drivers were, find out how much I really wanted it you know, then took probably over the next 3 or 4 months, um, for, you know, for contract recruiters. I think I finished that first year maybe running around sort of £1,500 to £2,000 a week GP, um, but hit my first holiday incentive, which I think for me was, was huge. It was really, really big.

Yeah, big confidence boost on these things. Yeah. So just quickly before, um, we move on, mate, so I love the fact that So firstly, what did you, what did you get out of— so how, how did you approach picking other people's brains and stuff like that? Obviously it's great that Austin Fraser supported you in these things, but like, what was your intention when you was trying to learn from these other people? Did you get one? Because I think a lot of people, when they're in that environment, it— especially in sales, yes, it's hard to be like, yeah, cold, like, I'm actually really struggling. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So like, how did you approach that? Because that, that is difficult.

Yeah. And I think, um, you know, once again, if, you know, just advice for anyone else out there is I can only speak from experience with Austin Fraser, but I know for a fact that, you know, everyone, you know, within my team or other teams in the business want to do exactly the same thing. We're all there for each other. So I don't think, you know, any point I was ever made to feel silly or stupid or, you know, I, you know, I'm a very proud person, you know, coming from a sporting background and stuff. But I think, you know, the biggest change in me through recruitment was being able to, I guess, suck that up a little bit and being like, you know what, actually it's fine to say you know, I don't know what's going on. Or it's fine to say I'm struggling, um, you know, if you're having really shit days and stuff, take 5 or 10 minutes out, go and chill out a little bit, you know, refer back to your drivers. Why did you get into the job initially? Um, and I guess, you know, a big thing was once again, you know, speaking to people and understanding, cool, look, we've been through that, we've done it. There's no shame at all in saying, you know, I've blanked this month, or I've done this. As long as your will is there, yeah, then, you know, I don't think Well, once again, I can only speak from Austin Fraser, but you know, if the will's there— there's people in our business that have done similar things to me where they've blanked for 6 months and they were maybe, you know, more senior than I was at the time, but we've held on to them. If your attitude's there, the behaviors are there, and your will to do better, you know, then our company is such a—

I think it's just that, like, don't underestimate that people around you will be willing to help. Yeah, do you know what I mean? And I guess for you then, like, was there anything else that, um you did, like, through those tough times, you just, you mentioned a few times your driver. Yeah. So you said, like, those few months also helped you sort of tap into, like, your drivers and these things. Like, how, like, talk to me a bit about that, because I think that's really interesting, because not everyone naturally would do that, right?

Yeah.

So what you're saying there is think about why you're doing what you're doing and these things. Like, how did you— what was the process around that? Because I think that's interesting.

Yeah, I think, um, I can't remember who it was that said to me once, was, I think I talked about a little bit earlier, but ultimately the reason, you know, I joined Austin Fraser was to earn good money give myself and, you know, family members and partners, whatever, is better opportunities, you know. And I was always told, you know, I went to university and I did A-levels and stuff, but by all means was I not a brain of Britain. But, you know, I came out and I spoke to a lot of people like Ashley, my friend in recruitment, and said, look, we've got the tools to, you know, you can earn over £100,000 a year here. And for me, always remembering not necessarily that you're going to earn loads of money, but the reason why you want to earn that money. You know, for me, I've got very, very close family you know, my aspirations to be able to support, you know, whether it be my sisters or my parents or whatever it may be. Um, you know, in the situation at the moment where me and my partner trying to buy a house, 5 years ago I'd never dreamed about being able to do that. You know, fortunate enough to not be able to go on nice holidays now and, you know, you know, have nice cars and stuff like that. For me, that was really important. And I guess you don't really realize that until you're down in the dumps sometimes. Because someone said to me once, if you in any sales job, if you look at your basic salary you could go and do a very easy job and earn exactly the same, if not probably more money. You know, when I first started Austin Fraser, the basic salary was 18 grand. Um, you know, it— we've now improved our structure and changed it a bit, but actually, if you look at 18 grand when I started, I could do a lot— I don't want to say easier, but different jobs.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

And earn more than that. So actually, cool, you're not maybe where you want to be now, but also the work that you do now. And someone told me this, and it's so true: the work you do now is basically affecting 6 months' time. So if you do fuck all now, you know, it's not going to affect 6 months, you're going to be in the same position. So I always thought, cool, well, the work I'm doing— you're almost driving for something better. Yeah, you know what I mean? And actually, if I sit around and mope for the next 3 months, well, this 3 months is going to be shit, and then the next 3 months is going to be shit as well. So it's kind of, you know, learning what those drivers were, but also listening to other people's advice and being like, you know what, actually I've got the tools and the capability here to, you know, earn really good money and enjoy it. So, you know, I'm really going to try, you know, really good.

Honestly, man, I think that's, um, that's really interesting, the fact that you really tapped into like actually why, why you're doing it and the people that you can benefit. Because obviously you mentioned a few times that obviously you're driven by money, and I'm sure when you've interviewed for people for your team and stuff like that, that's what you want them to say. But obviously it's, okay, why do you want that money? Yeah, that's what's really going to help them through it, isn't it?

Yeah.

And especially when you're getting rejected 50 times a day. Yeah, I think you're failing these things. So, um, mate, I like that. Nice. Good call.

I like it.

Um, so that brings us up to— so, so basically there was— they end up being like the end of the tunnel for your first year. Um, so then obviously you moved to a different, uh, slightly different, uh, vertical.

Yeah.

And you was in for like 2 and a bit years, right?

Yeah.

So, so just give me a bit of context. So Then did you sort of climb the ranks as your friend did? Like, what did you— as you— did you continue obviously to do well then? Did it go in the one direction?

Yeah, yeah, I guess, um, yeah, I was, uh, really lucky actually. So once I moved over to that Python market, I'm trying to think exactly when it was, but probably about 9, 10 months in, moved over to this Python market. Yeah. Um, coincidentally, we as a business are very, very hot on meetups and events, and we actually started probably 10 years ago, just just after we as a business opened, set up a meetup for Python in London, which I then took ownership of. So I threw myself in when taking on this market. So, you know, running events and meetups and—

why'd you do that?

Brand. I know that's sort of what we're talking about here, but, you know, that's why me and you get along so well, I think, is because I've found that as a recruiter, you— your product is the candidate that you, that you represent. And, you know, although I think sometimes people like to think that the candidate they represent is the best thing in the world, which it may be, 99% of the time that, yeah, it's not an exclusive candidate. So another recruiter can find that person and sell it into one of your clients.

Yeah.

So I quite quickly realized I had to do something to differentiate myself from just a candidate or a CV. Um, I do something in Austin Fraser, uh, we do master classes where sort of principals or seniors give, you know, some insight into their business. And I do one called Service-Led Sales, which talks about, you know, having a CV isn't enough these days. There's so many recruiters around, having a CV isn't enough. It's the service in which you provide around that for client and candidate that ultimately makes you, I guess, indispensable. You know, I, I, I like to— I really like to believe that the clients that I work with, you know, and hopefully some are listening now and are nodding along, but that the service that I provide to them as well as the candidates that's— it is really, you know, like a partnership as opposed to a recruitment company. Um, and that's— that stemmed a lot from the meetups that I attended and ran myself. You know, we got to a point where, um, Juggle, the Django user group of London, was— was probably the most successful Django-focused meetup, I think, definitely in London, if not in the whole of the UK. And it still is now. Um, so that really, you know, I guess propelled—

the reason why I said why— I absolutely love the way that you approach that And again, just quickly, like, did that just come natural to you? Like that whole sort of, okay, so this is like, I understand a bit more about recruitment now and it's very saturated, it's difficult. Because do you know what I mean? Like, that is— I wouldn't say that's the normal perception of a recruiter, do you get what I mean? So yeah, where did that come from?

Um, I think a combination of probably my journey through sport and things, having to stand out and differentiate yourself.

Okay.

Um, you know, playing sport, I went to, you know, just, uh, you know, the normal school down the road, and a lot of people I was playing cricket against were private school kids and stuff. So for me, I had to sort of try and make myself stand out. Um, so I think a bit of that, but also I guess the, the historic stuff that we've done at Austin Fraser. You know, my, my first ever boss, um, John, set up this juggle meetup. Um, and it was— it's always been, I guess, ingrained in us at Austin Fraser that, you know, meetups and differentiating yourself, whether that be through you know, podcasts like today, or content, or, or whatever it may be, it is key. Um, you know, I refer back to it, but there's so many recruiters out there that could ultimately go on a job board and find your goal candidate and sell it into a client at potentially a lower rate or for something different. So you actually got to make yourself stand out. And even if they do present that same CV, your client says, no, I'm not going to use anyone else because of X, Y, and Z.

Okay. Carl, I get it. How's it gonna make me more money?

So I think the way it made me earn more money was I once again like to feel that, especially on that Python market, I became the go-to recruiter. Okay. Um, you know, there's definitely lots of people that, you know, there's probably other Python recruiters out there listening that would disagree, but I think I had such a good network of candidates and also clients that You know, I think it probably got to a point at the end of it where my BD almost became minimal.

Nice.

Um, just purely because—

was that because you were getting more inbound business?

Yeah, yeah, lots of it was referrals, it was meetup-driven, it was repeat business, it was, yeah, you know, word of mouth, it was all that sort of stuff that I—

what was the period of time, do you think? That's it. Oh yeah, obviously you picked up something that's been around, but and then What was the period of time do you think that you really, you really start— you probably looked at your colleagues like, this is like really taken off now.

Yeah.

So when you really start to see the benefits.

So I think, say if we, say if we go from like day one of starting the Python market, I think for me to really get to that point was probably a year, maybe between a year and 18 months.

And you're doing the— how often were the events?

Every 3 months, monthly. Quarterly. Quarterly. Uh, sorry. Yeah, yeah, every 3 months. But what I was doing is providing content, so I was doing content that led up to the event Yeah, and then I was doing a newsletter which had all the speakers involved in, photos of me in there that I'd attach to every single email I'd send. So I was— although they were every 3 months and quarterly, I constantly had touching points every single week and snippets of the event that I'd share. So it was— they were every 3 months, but they were almost instant, they were almost constant, because yeah, it was just drip feeding. And as soon as a month and a half went By the last one, I'd then start speaking about the next one.

Yeah.

And we brought in a really great marketing function and design team and everything in-house, Austin Fraser, that were brilliant at doing that. You know, I couldn't have done it without those guys, you know, helping provide content and how to market it and stuff.

So, okay, before we move on, I'm just really interested in that because I think there'll be a lot of people listening, and I talk about personal branding and these things quite a lot, and obviously that ties into that. And I'm just trying to think people listening, okay, cool, I get it, how's it gonna make more money? You answer that, and I think that that's great. But just quickly then, before we move on to some like real, real practical advice, yeah, if I'm thinking, if I'm listening right now and I'm going, right, actually, yeah, starting a meetup or event for my niche would actually be a really good idea, what's some like really practical advice to go from great idea to like start? Do you know, starting it, give me some practical advice and then some learnings that you would do differently now if you just go back?

Yeah, I think some really practical advice for people out there thinking the same is you need to research what is out there at the moment.

Okay.

When— if I think back to when I first started and Austin Fraser did, we were probably one of the first recruitment companies to do meetups.

That helped.

So that definitely helped. We sort of, you know, created our own little niche. However, there is so many companies, there are so many clients, there are so many sole contributors at the moment crying out.

Quickly, sorry to butt in, that, that definitely helps. But at the same time, like, don't think, oh no, I'm too late to the party.

Yeah, I was gonna say, there are so many people now, whether they be clients or sole contractors or meetups already, that need support. You know, there's lots of meetups that I know of that really struggle through— for funding, for example. And funding, when I say funding, it might be 50 quid every month on pizzas. Yeah, um, you know, because a lot of these meetups are in a pub somewhere or they're in an office space after work. And actually, if you're out there thinking, you know, I want to forge my way in something, reach out to the organizers and offer your assistance if you can help. Yeah, I think that, that would be the way. If I was to do it now, that would be the way I would do it. Um, I mean, I've just launched a brand new meetup called Leaders in Tech, which is something that Austin Fraser has sort of, um forged over the last 3 years, but that was an area that we researched heavily. There was nothing like it around specifically at CTOs, VPs, head-offs to give them value. So there are meetups you can set up on your own, but just make sure you're researching and if there's something you can support and see if there's something you could support to start off with.

Okay. And then also then, so, um, two things. How, how do you approach it so then it's not like like, oh, Carl's just doing this, then he earns money. Or how does Carl do it? Like, Carl's a recruiter, I'm gonna get sold to all the time I'm there. So how, how do you, how do you, um, navigate through that?

Yeah, I've always been really open and honest with anyone and said, you know, if there was no real benefit for me, then I wouldn't be doing it. Yep. So I don't think there's any shame in hiding away from the fact that if you're a recruiter and you're involved in a meetup, maybe not initially, but you are there to gain some value within your business. So don't— first of all, I don't think it should be like, oh no, this isn't what it's meant to be on it, because everyone knows, and that's fine. But also think about what value you can give to A, the people coming, B, the people hosting it, and C, your market and your network. You know, think on those three points. Cool. So look, I'm going to gain something as a recruiter because I'm going to meet clients, I'm going to meet candidates, but what am I going to give back? You know, am I going to invest in some really cool speakers to come that my the people that attend the meetup are going to walk away from. I think if everyone's really transparent and says, cool, well look, the people attending are getting value, yeah, the client's office that we're hosting at are getting access to loads of developers that they wouldn't have normally, and me as a recruiter is, then I've never come up to a situation where people are unhappy with that. I think as long as you're really transparent and be like, honest, yeah, look, this is why I'm doing it, but also want to help as well and give value back, you know, that would be how I would go about it and how I have gone about it.

Really good advice. I think just to round that off as well, my opinion is like Recruiters are in such a, such a unique position to put great people together, and I think that is such a value-add. Like, X group of developers may not have never had access to X person that they would love to hear their opinion and perspective. Yeah, do you get what I mean? So, and then the last thing before we move on, um, what's like— so a fun thing, and Cole, amazing advice, what's like, what's been your, what's your like go-to structure of an event? Do you get what I mean? Like, what's worked really well and you've got some really good feedback? Again, just super practical.

Yeah, yeah. So I guess he's found a really cool venue, normally with a really cool company that's up and coming.

Um, one of the big things, like, in a company— yeah, I'm doing like a company's office.

Yeah. So sometimes it may be clients that we work with.

Yeah.

Um, it may well be clients that we're trying to work with and say, look, actually, look, what we do is provide you with candidates, but also we run events and we can give you access to this. Yeah. You know, personally, once again, don't be afraid of doing that. It's another value add. Look, you get access to our candidates, but also you get access to these really cool events that we host. Yeah, um, so try and find a cool venue, whether that be a company or a space. Try and hook it on a really cool topic. There's lots of events out there at the moment that are focused on, you know, just thinking of maybe a front-end one— oh, React, you know, React is the most popular framework probably at the moment. But actually find something that's really interesting. There's so many, um, you know, interesting, you know, whether it be markets like insurtech— there's loads of insurance tech companies at the moment, for example. Yeah, try and latch it onto that. So find a cool venue, find a cool topic. Um, branding and marketing is huge on it. You can't just expect to throw an event together, chuck it on LinkedIn, expect people to come. You need to get influencers involved in it, and they could be, you know, some of the key developers within that network. So when I used to do it, I had a group of 10, 20, you know, some may be listening, and I appreciate all your help for the stuff you did, but they would always repost and reshare and invite people on their own. That's how you build a proper brand. So if I was to say 3 bits of advice, you know, of how you're going to do it, that, you know, that's what I'd say.

Thank you, mate. No, I really like that. And again, just, just to finish that off, I think then surely, because this is how I use, how I use the podcast when I was at Hookso, it's then all of a sudden if you want to be the X amount of companies, you're not talking about jobs, you're talking about event that you have, right? That's how you can use it in your daily practical— yeah, there's, there's loads of advantages to that. And, um, yeah, thanks for sharing that, mate. So I guess, cool, so let's, let's go into, um, some— a bit more to, to your journey then. So, so then you ended up working in that, um, market for 2 and a half years. So then did you, did you end up managing people, or did you— like, how long, how long was you just a sort of sole biller before?

Yeah, so I, so I guess I started off, and as you started off, so day one started off with the Python market. Probably around 4 months, um, went from a trainee to a consultant. Yeah, still sole contributor. Consultant to senior, that probably took me about a year, maybe a little bit longer.

Okay.

Um, and you know, at Austin Fraser, maybe similar to other companies, it's not just billing focus, it's about executive maturity. So it's like what you're doing behavior-wise, externally, internally. So yeah, probably 4 or 5 months from trainee up to senior, maybe a year, maybe a little bit longer. And then I chose the path at that point to go down towards a principal consultant, which is still a sole contributor as opposed to lead. I think once again at my— at that time I was— God, how am I now? I was probably like 23, 24. I was very still money motivated. I got a lot of satisfaction out of me ringing the bell and doing deals. And although I like helping people, I was very, very focused on what I wanted to do. Um, so I went down—

good self-awareness, mate.

Yeah, I went down the principal route. Um, I hit principal pretty much, well, the quickest that you could do it after. So I hit senior 3 months after, and you have to wait 3 months, I hit principal. Um, and I guess as we speak, I'm still theoretically a principal. Um, I did then probably maybe 7, 8 months roughly as principal, moved to America. I've now returned as a principal, but I'm starting to transition now over to, uh, like a lead/team lead.

Wicked, man. Cool. So let's, um, definitely going to talk about your experience in America and stuff. Yeah, but let's, let's quickly then— what's clear then for you to achieve that, obviously it's more than just billings and performance, it's everything else you just spoke about, which is great. But clearly your performance must obviously only go on in a positive way, right? Yeah. And I think obviously I come from a permanent recruitment background, but let's sort of break down some advice and learnings that you've had from taking, as you said, your weekly GP to ever what that was, to whatever it was at its highest point. Let's talk a bit about that journey because I think, yeah, you can get a lot of value out of that. Do you know what I mean? So I guess, so I guess let's just set the tone. So like, what was sort of the peak of like where you're at and these things? Then we can break, reverse engineer engineers to like some of the key—

what was the peak when I— of my weekly GP? It's cool. So I think at its highest it was roughly just under £15,000 a week.

And what does that— so help me out, so does that try—

I guess if you do—

people roughly?

Yeah, well, I think it depends on— obviously, as contract consultants will know, depending on what your weekly GP is, yeah, it will translate. So yeah, I had— I can't think now— however many people running, and you know, it built the— it built the business, or brung in the business, just under £15,000 a Cool.

So let's break that down. Yeah. So like, how— like, what were the key things that helped you get there? Firstly, like, if— to think about— so if I'm, if I'm on Contract Recruiter listening right now and I'm 18 months, 2 years in, and I'm at that, um, they're still at the sort of— I don't know what, what's like— give me some context. Like, what's like someone's like doing pretty decent? Like, if you're like 2, 3, 4, 5K GP, is that, is that pretty decent?

I think it's really difficult to answer that just purely because different markets will have weekly GPs. Okay, um, you know, I think development has fairly good weekly GPs. You know, you're looking at sort of fairly high day rates for contractors. You may have networking support or people like that that notoriously maybe have a little bit lower. Um, however, yeah, you know, I think in terms of where I was in the business when I was at my peak, I would, you know, I was top biller in the company. Um, I had the highest weekly GP. But there's definitely some things across the way that got me there outside of, you know, just doing deals. Um, it was, it was all the stuff that, that I spoke about there in terms of building that brand, building that, I guess, building that reputation. Um, you know, so I always got taught that whatever your weekly GP is, for example, you would always have in the contract market notoriously around 10% finish every month, because sometimes you might have 3-month contract, 6 months. So when I was running 15 grand or, or in and around that a week, I was having 1,500 finish every month. So I was having to do 3, 4, 5 deals a month. Yeah, just to stay still.

Yeah.

So at that point, there's only so much new business that you can generate in a month. So when I really started to, I guess, kick on, it was making sure that the existing business that I had was either really solid, so contractors were either, you know, in very long contracts, you know, and advising, you know, because 90% of contract recruiters will agree with me here, you'll write someone a 3-month contract and almost always they'll get extended.

Yeah.

So for me it was about educating the clients initially and saying, well, cool, look, why don't actually, because you've got this notice period, let's get a 6-month contract initially. And if you start thinking about it that way, your business the longevity of it then grows that way, um, rather than, you know, 2 months in, a contractor's head gets turned by higher day rate and you lose, and then you've got a refill and you kind of just then plateau up and down maybe.

So when did you start? So, so, okay, that's interesting. So just, just quickly to make, make sure I understand that, you started then consulting on— well, actually, normally the, the people that I'd help you find or whatever, the contractors that come in there, yeah, typically you may want them for 3 months, but have you thought about having them for 6 months, whatever, right? So then that helped you, as you said, the, the peaks and troughs reduced. And then also it helped, I guess, from an adv— advantage for a contractor is that enables to give a bit more stability, which is also in their interest, isn't it? So did you start then, okay, saying to clients, well, actually, have you thought about this? And so that started to change.

Yeah, I, I think that the, the most important thing for me and the most— the, the biggest thing that I identify where my business really took off was when I stopped, stopped being a recruiter and I started becoming a consultant.

Yes, man.

Um, you know, as we speak about when we're messaging and stuff, I'm in London now. So our head office is in Reading, we've got satellite offices in London. However, I'm in London 3, 4 days a week solely on site with clients. That may be clients I'm working with, new clients, meeting candidates. Every single candidate that I've ever worked with— there's one that I haven't who's based in this building that I haven't met yet for lunch. But every single candidate that's ever worked for me, I've met for lunch.

Okay.

Every single candidate I work with—

why do you do that?

People buy from people. If that candidate's on site, he's not only a representation of me but Austin Fraser. You know, I want him to have a bit of, uh, him or her have a bit of ownership in like, cool, I want to do a really good job because you know what, I really love Carl, he's such a great guy, and I'm representing him. That's exactly the same as when I speak to candidates. I'm an extension of a client. So if I give a candidate a really shitty service but I'm representing, you know, Azoo's branding, you know, it makes your company look shit. So I— as soon as I started understanding that actually people buy from people, so it's really important for me to get in front of clients and candidates and also look after your contractors, because ultimately your contractors are your presence. And, you know, there's no beating around the bush, they're the people that earn you money.

Yeah, of course. Um, yeah, likewise.

Likewise. So, you know, for me it was really important to make sure that the— you know, it's so difficult, you know, anyone in recruitment will know it's difficult to do deals. So actually, when you've done one, God, you want to hold on to that one. Yeah, you know, anyone— I've had people that have contracted me for years and I still once a month go and meet them. Every single Monday I'll text them. Some of those, you've got to think about it, some of those contractors now clients of mine. You know, a contractor I placed in one of his first ever roles, he's now a client of mine. You know, and actually that, as soon as that mentality for me changed of quick wins, quick wins, what's happening a bit before. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think most people would, especially doing a deal in like 2 weeks like I did. Yeah, quick wins, you know. And also, cool, the work I do now is going to benefit me in 6 months. As I said, I've started— I was working with candidates probably 5 years ago and I maybe just placed them this year, or I've just started working with them That's an extreme way to go, but, but it's happened. I can think of a few examples where it's taken 3, 4, 5 years for me ever to place someone, or, or maybe work with them as a manager. So as soon as you get that long-term vision, I think that will help you as well.

Yeah, yeah. And then I guess, so obviously you mentioned there about being a consultant. Obviously, clearly relationships, doubling down, doubling down on actually having, having the right mindset, long-term mindset, these things. Was there anything else specific to the contract world that you started to change, or some really specific habits that then you really started doing daily, weekly, that really started to obviously pay dividends over 3 months, 6 months, 12 months?

Yeah, I, um, I got into the habit, and I still do this now, and anyone that works, you know, within our team, or anyone that, you know, hopefully I have the pleasure of hiring in the future, I'll always tell them this, that the contract market specifically is very, very candidate-driven. Yeah. So if you don't have candidates, in the time it takes you to go out and find a candidate on a job that you've had called in, someone else will have filled it. I always looked at it like, no matter how hard I'm working, there's always someone out there that's working harder than you. Um, you know, I, uh, many people in the office will agree with me, but, you know, I'm a bit like a bloodhound. If I find something, I'll go after it. Yeah. But I always saw, God, if I'm being lazy there'll be someone else that will fill it. So I always had 3, 4, 5, 6 candidates that I'd worked with before. You know, I took references on them so it would bolster their opportunity, but also for a client, they'd be like, wow, it's not just a CV, it's a reference. Different day rates depending on their ability. I knew where they were interviewing, when they were interviewing, how, what they'd like, this, that, and the other, so that when a job got called in for me. I think at one point, in terms of my CV to fill ratio, was almost 1 to 1.

Really?

And I think in terms of, at my, at my peak, I say it was probably around sort of 3 days from job called in, you know. Obviously there are some jobs that take different, but I remember looking when I was doing, you know, quite a few deals, it was almost when a job got called in, I would pledge it to my manager because I would get commitment on it. I would always try my best to get exclusivity, and I know that I've got 3, 4, 5 candidates there, and while I'm taking the job description, here, here's 3 CVs. So the time to get CVs was 5 minutes.

Yeah. And that was part of what I really doubled down on, your kind of network. Yeah, I knew them inside out.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. You know, and also combining that with what you know about your clients. And that's where this sort of, you know, what Austin Fraser do is that meetings, that consultancy. You don't, you don't learn stuff like that over the phone with people, no matter how many. And I've worked with people that have spent 6, 7 hours on the phone, you know, there is no way on earth that they will get as much information, buy-in, than me— look what me and you are doing now by looking at someone's eyes. No way. So anyone out there, meetings, meetings, meetings, that's key.

Really? Yeah, I like it, mate. Okay, cool. So, um, quickly then, so obviously reaching that— I mean, mate, that's like a big— like, that's amazing. Obviously you, you really got in that top 1, 5, 10% of obviously Austin Freight is a big company, right?

Yeah.

So I guess now then, from, from what, from what you've seen— actually, wait, just quickly. So what I wanted to just ask you there was, if I'm sure you've seen this around you where— I don't know, you've been talking a bit about it then for the last 5, 10 minutes, but what are the typical things then that you think prevent people from getting to that next level? Do you get what I mean? That you've seen around you, that's probably quite common.

Yeah, I think sometimes complacency a little bit. I think it's very, very easy. And don't get me wrong, I, I, you know, I'm by no means saying that all of this came to me, you know, overnight and I all of a sudden managed to build up a really good contract. You know, there are certain times where, you know, you may— and I've done it before— you have a client call in, you don't necessarily have that exclusive candidate there, but you've worked with them before, they like you, you like them, so you think, oh, actually I'm gonna go home at 5 o'clock today and I'll get working on it tomorrow. Someone else will fill that job, you know. I always think about it, and my— one of my bosses says to me, he says, just imagine if you had you going up against you. And I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, you know, because I know that if I got a lead at 7 o'clock at night on a Thursday, I would chase that lead until 12 o'clock at night, because that's just a sort of mentality. So I always say, you know, and I think that's— I think that's what the clients and the candidates want, you know. Clients call me up And I think clients want them to be like, 'Carl, look, we're in the shit, we need someone.' They know that I will stay in the office, or, you know, I might go home now and work on it, but they know that I will find them someone. And I think that's that sort of relationship stuff that we were talking about, where, you know, I'm a— I'm an arm of our business or something.

Um, so complacency.

Complacency. Um, I think sometimes reaffirming what your drivers are. You know, I've worked with lots of people before where it's like, 'Cool, I want to buy a house.' and then they buy a house and then they're like, cool. Yeah, you know, I've worked with lots of people and, you know, a guy that I work with, once again, he was there on my first day and he's still there now. He's a director now. When I started, he wanted to get married and he worked his nuts off to afford his wedding, and he did. And I remember him saying to me after, oh God, he said, I'm trying to working out what my drivers are now. And for me it was so good because I was like, well, what do you mean?

Yeah, yeah.

And he was like, it's fine to be sometimes to be like, actually, I don't know what my drivers are. Yeah. And I think advice to anyone, there's going to be lots of like roads and winding roads and stuff like that through recruitment or any sales industry, and that's absolutely fine. It's sometimes fine, you know, to, to be like, oh, actually, well, that's not my driver anymore. It's this. But I think it's really important to sort of sit down, whether it be 3 months, 6 months, yearly, and reaffirm to yourself what your driver is. Because that ultimately is what gets me out of bed every day. Buying a house with my partner now is what gets me out of bed every day. That's my driver right now. But once I bought our house, then we'll work out what we need to do. It may then be getting married, it may then be having kids. But I think it's really important. So I would say complacency and reaffirming what your drivers are are probably two of the things that I've noticed that will stop you going from wherever you are now to— and that could be running £15,000 a week, it could be running £30,000 or £40,000 a week, it could be billing a million quid. I don't think it differs. You may be a trainee or a principal, I think having a driver is really, really important.

Okay, mate, last question before we talk about your American experience, which I'm keen to talk about, um, because clearly um, to get to, to, to have those achievements, you must have some organization and some structure in your life. What did the typical Carl Penhal top biller day look like?

Um, good question. I think there's two, two answers to that. I think when I was building what I was building, it was very, very structured. It had to be. It was very, very much candidate-focused. And once again, you're going to have people that are contract billers here or perm billers. I still think it's exactly the same. Candidates are king, they rule, um, you know, they're your product. So it was almost always very, very candidate-focused. Um, I got into a habit very, very early of having a really organized database, and that was something that was sort of, I guess, drummed into me by my current boss Charles, who was like, if you, for example, have a— got, you know, a great candidate that you want to get out to people, where are you going to send him? And I, I've got a really good memory for— if you say a client now, I'll remember who their CTO is, what his mobile number is sometimes, where he's worked before.

That's definitely helpful when you're a contractor.

Yeah, but you can only rely on that so much. Yeah, if I'm like, great, I found this really niche skill and I want to sell him in somewhere, but God, I can't remember— I've got a database there and then makes it— and then you're also contacting people with relevant information rather than just cold calling and being like, uh, I've got this person are they any good for you? We don't even hire in that market. Oh, brilliant. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So I was always making sure that the stuff that I was doing was very relevant. But in terms of my day plan, it was always very, very candidate-focused.

Okay.

Um, keeping your database up to date from the beginning because it's a pain in the ass to change it. You know, some people use Bullhorn, some people use Salesforce, whatever it may be, keeping that as tidy as possible. Um, I always put aside— I do it more so now— time for client and candidate meetings. Okay. Um, give me details then. So what, getting in at what, 8 o'clock? Yeah. Um, probably the morning was— and you know, the morning, say maybe from, you know, what, 8:30 until 11:30, 12 was candidate-focused. It was probably job boards, it was adverts.

What, new candidates?

New and existing. Yeah, new and existing. You know, your existing candidates are your eyes and ears. Yeah, um, they're the people that are invested in the market. Um, so for me it was always, you know, about who's hiring, where are you going, what are you up to. Because as I said, if I had a client call in and they needed John, for example, and you had a conversation in the morning, then you're laughing. Yeah, yeah, but also call them every hour, you know, because if you're giving people value and value-add, they don't mind speaking to you. It's when recruiters call up candidates or clients and speculatively sell them a job or something and there's no value at all in there, that's when they'll get pissed off with you. But speaking to, you know, once again I use John for example, as, look, I've got a call with this person in a minute. If they wanted you to go in, what's your time slots like? What a great experience it is for a contractor and a client for you to say 'Cool, well, this guy, uh, I know where he is now. He can come over and meet you in 10 minutes.' Or by saying, 'Well, look, I don't know, I spoke to him last Tuesday, and let me see if he's still available.' Because 90% of the people we deal with are not hiring, are not actual hires. They're normally tech people, or they're normally, you know, people that jobs aren't recruitment, if that makes sense. So the quicker you can make the process for them and the candidates, the better experience they're going to have, the better brand you're going to create. The more repeat business they're going to have, the happier people. So that was my mentality. I basically did all the legwork throughout the day, basically training for the main event, you know, you know, basically.

What was the rest of the day then?

Um, depends.

It was between have some time to eat.

Yeah, grab some lunch, grab some lunch. Um, and then what would you do in the afternoon then? Probably a lot of the same, really, really, you know. It was, you know, the stuff that I was doing was not rocket science. You know, a lot of the event stuff, you know, took up time. But, you know, outside of that, it was client meetings.

I would like to try to always allocate time to business development and sort of try and build new relationships.

Or I did, but I think naturally that happened through the work what I was doing with my candidates. It was, you know, some people have to have a very sort of strict call, this is my BD hour. Yeah. But my mentality, and I don't know if, you know, a client actually said this to me once. If in your business, say we've got, you know, 200 people at Austin Fraser across the world, for example, if from 10 till 12 every day it's BD time, how many other companies do you think are doing 10 till 12 BD time? And how many other— how many— that manager, how many fucking times do you think his phone is ringing? Because he knows 10 till 12 is BD time. So for me, I always thought actually it was a little bit more of a you know, if I speak to a candidate and I find a lead, for example, or I see that someone's hiring, I'm gonna go down that rabbit hole where it takes me, and then I'll come back to the candidate thing. So I had a structure in terms of it was very candidate-focused, but I always made sure, you know, if I wasn't doing enough BD and my pipeline was looking low, I would normally just get back on the candidate stuff. Because the candidates that I speak to, you know, because I had such great relationships with them It might well be working with candidates and trying to find them jobs and taking references, because I've never, or very, very rarely ever placed anyone that I haven't taken a reference for or know from the meetup and network. So for me, taking references and then talking about the meetups that I run naturally migrated into BD, and then I go and meet with people, and then it was, you know, it was that sort of like so on and so forth.

Um, okay, yeah, thank you. So, Carl, why did you go to America?

Yeah, really good question. So when I started at Austin Fraser, I was very much wanting to be like an individual contributor. It was all about me, me, me, me. Um, probably about 18 months ago, I'm trying to think. Yeah, probably about— no, longer than that, actually, 2 years. I started to— I wouldn't say, you know, properly mentor, but we had some sort of more, you know, junior, younger members of the team that I sort of took under my wing a little bit. And I started to get, as probably most people, you know, who are in maybe sort of my position will, started to get a little bit of a feeling of, oh, actually I'm maybe getting a little bit more satisfaction out of seeing other people do well. And it stopped being all about me, which if anyone that knows me probably will come as a bit of a surprise. But, um, you know, it definitely stopped being all about me. You know, I used to love— I vividly remember a colleague of mine who's once again still with the business, um, this was probably 3 years ago, Liam joined. Don't even know it was his first deal, but I remember sat down next to him coaching him through a call, him ringing the bell, and the satisfaction I got out of that was, was 10 times better than me ever ringing the bell or hitting any incentive that I ever did. So at that point I decided that I wanted to go down a sort of like team lead type path, um, and at Austin Fraser where I was at the time, that wasn't really an option. Um, we had a much smaller team. We had a bit more of a less defined path. We have now very, you know, we've overhauled our whole progression path. But I had hit principal and there wasn't anything above that. Yeah, it was either principal or team lead, and there wasn't the option within the business to do a team lead. And we now have senior principal, principal director, but there wasn't any of that. So the only opportunity that I saw was to jump across, across the pond and still with Austin Fraser and have a part of setting up a brand new venture, basically. I'd seen a couple of people who once again still work for Austin Fraser, who had worked in our UK office, have moved now, and they— James and Alex— actually set up the whole US branch. We're now 5 offices in 5 different states, um, but they set it up. So I thought— I saw them do it and I thought, actually, you know, at the time, um, at the time that I decided to do it, I was single, um, and then I decided to do it, and before I left I got with my current partner. So that was— that's another story. That's a bit of a, uh, a difficult year apart. But, um, but yeah, for me it was a challenge. It was, you know, what I've wanted to put myself out my comfort zone. I wanted to learn new things. I wanted to see new things, you know. I'd always traveled a lot playing cricket, and, um, you know, and Pete and Dale, who are the founders of Austin Fraser, fully supported me in what I wanted to do. And yeah, it was an amazing experience. It was a— it was, you know, a brilliant, brilliant year.

Okay, so let's, um, unpack that a bit because I think, um, it's becoming obviously really popular now for UK businesses to open American branches. The opportunities seem to be great and these things, right? So before, before we finish, mate, let's sort of finish on, on the sort of American experience and these things, and then we can sort of wrap up. So I guess firstly, just give me some context. So you was obviously setting up something pretty much from scratch in terms of the niche and the vertical that you were doing in America.

Yeah, yeah.

So it was Denver the state?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So Colorado is the state and Denver is the It is the place here within it, right up in the, um, in the Rocky Mountains. So beautiful place, you know, snows, you know, quite frequently, sunny all the time, very rarely rains, lovely place. But so we as a business set up in Austin 4 years ago, um, and then after that we then set up, you know, we've now got Denver, we've got Dallas, we've got LA, we've got San Diego. Okay. But Denver, Denver had been set up When I went over there, there was 4 of us. Okay, I think. Oh, so I wasn't, you know, one of the first, but there was Oliver, who's another English guy who had been bought into the business from, uh, from another— well, from an S3-type company to sort of set it up and run it. Um, and then there was— I think there was 3 others, so there was 4. So plus me, I was the 5th one. We were in a WeWork-type building, um, It was 6 months old. Wow. I think probably 6 months old. Yeah, literally from the start.

Okay, so the first thing I want to know, yeah, if I'm a recruiter right now, I'm in a similar position that you was.

Yeah.

And there's an opportunity with my business, or there's an opportunity to join another business to progress my career. Haven't been there a year and now come back. What should I be thinking about if I'm looking to move my life as a recruiter to America? Yeah, the rec to rec isn't going to tell me about, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's going to be a lot of things. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely more than just the positives and the bigger fees and all this, right? So what, yeah, what things do people need to think about if they're considering moving to America?

I think, you know, once again, I'll harp on about you need to think about your driver again. Um, you know, for me, I think if I'm, if I'm looking back honestly, I think my driver was probably wrong. I wanted to progress, but I think I thought actually I probably could have done what I wanted to do at Austin Fraser in the UK. My driver was wrong. I saw the bright lights and I saw, you know, the big city, as it were.

A lot of people probably experienced that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and I think, you know, being really open and honest, I think my driver was probably wrong. However, once again, you know, really great time. Um, do as much research as possible. Every single state in the US is completely different. Yeah, you know, we, you know, I did very limited business outside of Denver, but I did work with some companies in place, people in New York, and even just as much as like tax laws and stuff like that. And that's— that, that is with contract and perm, they are so different that do your research, you know. Implicitly, I visited Denver for 5 days before I moved there. I went there for 5 days, the company sent me there, which was great. In hindsight, should have spent a lot more time there.

Nice.

You know, I should have gone there for a lot longer. Um, you know, I don't know where the company is is, you know, people that are looking to move will facilitate that. But I would definitely advise— do your research, go there for longer. Um, it's tough, it's really tough, especially if you're going to a sort of startup-sized business. You know, as I mentioned earlier, I'm a huge family man. My family is, you know, you know, pretty much everything. Um, so when you have a really shit day at work, yeah, and you go home to an empty apartment and there's 9-hour time difference, so no one's on WhatsApp.

Yeah.

And you can't speak to anyone for— we probably, you know, me and my partner spoke properly once a week because of the time difference. You like, please, anyone, I'm begging you, take that into mind because that was really tough, you know. I went—

how did you do with that?

I really struggled, if I'm honest, you know. Obviously, you know, me and you have been speaking for a long time, you know. I'm quite a confident guy, I'm quite a proud person. So, you know, for me, being in such a sort of, you know, shitty place sometimes where, you know, because startups are hard, you know, anyone that join in recruitment, whether you're, you know, on your start of your journey or the companies, you know, cool, yes, in America there are bigger fees purely just because salaries are actually true, salaries are higher. Okay, so, you know, salaries are higher, therefore the percentages— oh, sorry, the fees that you will get will be higher. Yeah, um, in terms of percentages, not, not really, you know, I think you know, we work at a very similar percentage in America and Germany and the UK.

Yeah, so I wouldn't say percentages, but they do tend to be higher because the salary people pay.

Yeah, you know, on average you'll look at anywhere around sort of 100K salary, and in the UK you may be looking at something closer to maybe 60.

Yeah, okay.

In Germany it's maybe 80.

Yeah, so same sort of person.

I wouldn't necessarily say that they're higher, um, sorry, higher they're higher fees, but only because the salaries are higher. It's not necessarily someone's going to pay you 50, 60%.

Um, okay, so it's really— may I fully respect that? Definitely. I think I'd definitely find that really hard. Like, so don't take into consideration that if you haven't got a social network over there, if you've got a girlfriend, family, blah blah blah, like that, that's no joke. Yeah, you've got to be comfortable with that. Yeah. Um, as you've already said, the earning potential is definitely potentially higher because because of the fees.

Yep.

I guess the next thing then that I'm interested in is what were the sort of clear different nuances that you picked up on quite early going through that? So if you're then now dealing with obviously American clients and obviously businesses in Denver, I'm assuming, and as you said, some outside of Denver, what were the different nuances in terms of Carl picking up the phone, I'm a recruiter for Austin Fraser, what are the things that you picked up on that were probably quite different?

Yeah, I think straight away obviously a lot of people will be like, oh, the English accent, you know, comes comes across really well and stuff like that. And don't get me wrong, people identify with an English accent, but I wouldn't necessarily say, oh God, it's, you know, the, uh, the golden key that lets you in. Yeah, I remember when I moved there, I've got friends that were in recruitment, they said, oh God, you know, when you're, you know, making calls, it's going to be easy because, you know, you've got that English accent. It's definitely not the case. So anyone that's thinking that, um, it definitely isn't. Um, what I really struggled with, that the— I mean, you know, not to tell sort of too much or go into too much detail, but the model of recruitment over in America is, I found, very, very different. So permanent recruitment is exactly the same. You, you know, charge a percentage on the person's fee. We're in the UK, and people relate. Notoriously, you'll have a candidate and they will either want contract work or permanent work. Yeah, in our industry, and that's technology. In America, candidates don't care, which makes it really, really difficult because I went over there to sort of take a bit more of a lead on our account management function, um, which was ultimately contract. So for me, it was very, very different. It was like, oh, actually, I haven't got— where I did so much candidate work and I had really gold candidates, I then almost no longer— it was like I went over there and people took my product away. So it was like I was trying to sell something that I didn't have a little bit. Um, and also the model that we as Austin Fraser, and also I believe lots of companies adopt, is In the UK, you have what we call 360 recruitment consultants. Over there, you have 180. So you'll have someone that does the BD and the account management, and then you'll have someone that does the resourcing. So I found that really, really difficult to— as I spoke earlier, you know, I combined the candidates and the clients. I was doing a lot more of the sort of account management, and then I bought in a couple of people into the team that sort of sat with me and did the resourcing.

And what was the challenges with that?

I just found a real disconnect between, you know, if I took a job description, for example, and this is no, you know, disrespect to the people working, it makes sense that they then—

because it's gone from Carl taking the job specs, then Carl communicating that to the candidates, yeah, Carl taking that to then communicating to your team and then communicating to the market.

Yeah. So it was just, it was just that disconnect for me. It was something that I guess in you know, I wasn't really aware of properly. I think for me it was, you know, the biggest thing that I'll take away from, you know, the America thing was, you know, I probably needed to do more research into it.

Yeah.

Um, you know, also at Austin Fraser, I was the third person that had ever done it. You know, we had Alex and James that went and set up the whole American function, and then me. So, you know, and the rest of the people were from America. Yeah, everyone else was American hired. We've now sent over, or we've I say sent over, we shipped them off. Um, 3 or 4 more, and a couple of people from Germany have now moved out there. So it's now a much more, you know, I guess, common thing.

And they can learn from people that have done it.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I guess, you know, in terms of those sort of nuances is, you know, if you're a contract recruiter, make sure you do your research into sort of what model you as a business adopt and how that works. Um, one— the other thing that I found quite different is the time in which it took for deals to be done. Um, I, I found it— and this may well just be— yeah, I found it a lot slower.

People just a bit more chill.

Well, every single company, from my understanding, as soon as they get any sort of money in the UK, they invest in tech. In America, the first thing they hire is a HR person or, or talent acquisition. So it once again then adds another layer. And that's not a problem, but just for me the companies that I work with, the companies that I work with in the UK, a lot of it was sometimes, you know, direct manager contact. It was a contract model that I was used to, so it was quick. And then you add in, when I moved over there, a different model, and then now we're liaising through 3 or 4 different funnels and sometimes portals to upload CVs. That was something that really shocked me, that actually— and once again, I think it comes down to the research that I did, and also maybe as a company, the research that we um, to where we were.

Wow, sounds interesting.

Yeah, it was good fun. It was a challenge for sure. I think it, um, it made me grow up, you know, in terms of, you know, I'm 27 right now, um, but in, in terms of when I moved there, you know, what, 25, 20, 25, 26, it maybe grew up a huge amount from like a personal point of view, um, and then also understand myself but my business a lot more I guess it moving over there and made me realize, not that I took what I did here for granted, but I maybe didn't realize the value I hope that I add to candidates and clients, but also how much I guess I absolutely love doing what I did. Um, so, you know, for me, the learns I take away from it are huge.

Um, and obviously don't get yourself a missus before you go.

Well, don't let her hear you say that, she'll be listening to this. Um, no, yeah, obviously that was, that was a whole Mate, that's hard, man. Yeah, it was definitely tough. But I mean, you know, not to sort of turn it into too soppy, but you know, we made it work and we're now in the process of buying a house. So, you know, it was obviously, uh, you know, what's meant to be is meant to be, or so, right?

So being back in the UK for the— what did you say, about 10 weeks?

Yeah, roughly. I'm trying to think now, about 10 weeks, nearly 3 months maybe.

So as we finish then, because I think, um, I think just it'd be good to get your insight. So are you managing anyone right now or not?

So I— so my role is still a a principal consultant. Uh, we've just brought on a girl to the team, Emily, who I'm acting as a lead consultant. So we've got quite a— I think a really good progression path at Austin Fraser, where as opposed to going straight from, you know, an individual contributor to, to not, we've got a couple of sort of steps between that, which basically sort of go from now that 80% of my time is mine and 20% is dedicated to another person.

Oh nice.

And the other time she's spent with my manager. So it gives me a bit of a flavor of leadership. It gives—

how you finding that?

Yeah, loving it, really loving it. Um, I guess it allows me to do what I want to do where I can still have control of my own business, but it's also teaching me, um, a lot of lessons about communication. And, you know, I think when you've been an individual contributor, and I guess you know your own business so well, you start to assume sometimes that other people know how to do things as well. Um, and Emily, for example, who's just joined— we've just, um, launched a graduate scheme at Austin Fraser, and Emily has come through that. So she's a, she's a graduate, so she has no, you know, she actually did work in estate agency for a brief time, but in terms of, I guess for her, she was like, you know, this is her first recruitment job.

Yeah.

Um, so for me, it's actually taken a step back and been like, okay, cool, it's another challenge, which, yeah, you know, I think I've probably said a few times that that's what I relish now.

Yeah.

It isn't just going up and ringing the bell and doing my own deals, it's something new. So I'm excited excited. It's a next chapter for me.

So last thing, mate. Yes, just before, um, I asked you, um, what you're excited about and what's going on, um, you— I think sort of one thing throughout your career, like, you've been— I don't know, I feel like mindset has been like quite key to you, right? Obviously sporting background, always having to compete, trying to stand out, moving places in the world, and these things must have helped with that. But I guess what's been your— like, have you always had this sort have you always been quite sure of yourself? Or in terms of the mindset piece, how have you cultivated that? Because it seems like you really got to a good place and obviously has continued to— your mindset has continued to help you have really success in the UK, went to Denver and was like, Jesus Christ, okay, yeah, look in the mirror here and be like, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? So like, I guess, what's, what's been your journey with mindset and like how important has that been to you?

A huge amount, yeah, a huge amount. I think anyone that knows me sort of from within work, maybe you're getting a flavor of it now, but more importantly sort of family members and stuff like that, is, you know, that mindset is really important to me through that sporting background and stuff. Positivity, um, I get, uh, I get called the peacock at the office, you know, walk around, um, you know, quite, quite loud, quite a positive person, make myself, uh, you know, known. But I guess for me, that's what I need to do to sort of promote and create my positivity and my sort of, you know, that mindset that you know, everything's all right and everything's going to be good and everything's good.

Did you like— did that, you know what I mean, did that happen quite naturally or did you— yeah, proactively trying to call—

I definitely proactively tried to change it. I think, um, you know, one thing that, that I have done all the time throughout, um, like promotion targets is it, as I said earlier, it isn't just billing-wise that you get promoted at Austin Fraser, it's sort of executive maturity and stuff like that. Um, and after I sort of reached a certain point and was going through sort of more senior promotions, you know, we start to look at a little bit more about how you're influencing other people and how your perception is perceived across the office, uh, you know. And, and some of the things I think, if anyone doesn't do this, 360 reviews are really, really vital. And that's sort of getting feedback from a number of different areas of the business. And something that was noticed sometimes was that potentially when it was good with me, it great, and when it was bad, it was really bad. Yeah. Um, so I identified that quite quickly and sort of proactively now try and sort of think, cool, how am I being perceived and how am I having that positive mindset and mentality? It is tough sometimes, um, you know, but I think, you know, a lot of it comes from that sporting background, really, things like that. And also just, you know, being aware of it and the driver's thing as well, you know. You love the driver. Yeah. I think if in fact your mindset is, you know, drifting off, then maybe, you know what, yeah, people get bored of it, but maybe then your drivers aren't right and maybe they're not the same anymore, and maybe you're not actually driving towards what you think you were. And that's when you've got to take a bit of self-reflection and be like, cool, where am I now? What am I doing? I think that automatically just maybe pushes the reset button on your mindset.

Okay, mate. Well, look, before we finish, what's got— so what's going on in your world then that you're excited about? So if you've got any events coming up or what, what's going on? What's on the agenda?

Yeah, so there's a couple of things, I guess, to sort of keep an eye out for. Um, I mean, Austin Fraser is a business where, you know, we're growing as ever. Um, as I said, we've now got 5 offices across the US, 4 in Germany. Um, we are, I think, hopefully trying to move towards a point where we've got a more permanent office in London, and that will allow us to, I guess, dip into a newer talent pool and grow our team, which will be amazing. And hopefully I'll have a, a part to play in that. Events-wise, as I mentioned earlier, we as a business have just launched Leaders in Tech London, which we had our first event about 6 weeks ago. It's purely focused on sort of VPs, CTOs, head-offs, just purely an event, you know, that people can come to who are of that sort of high C-suite level and really get some value from their, you know, peers, moan about the industry, maybe more so than they can do in other meetups. Um, you know, I love that event also. You know, I was part of sort of making it happen in Denver. We now run it in a number of places in Germany. Um, we hired out a, a riverboat, um, for the last event and did a 3-hour riverboat cruise up and down the Thames with, you know, it's a little bit more than just your, your meetup with pizzas and beer, which is what I like about it.

Yeah.

Um, so we've got another one of those coming up in October. Um, and yeah, I guess those are the two things, the growth for me and the team, and also sort of of some more good events and stuff, really.

Wicked, mate. So look, the question I always like to ask: if Carl could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd take on advice— could be a phrase, a word, a sentence— what, what comes to mind?

Probably a couple. Meetings, meetings, meetings, whether that be candidate or client. I think, you know, FaceTime is invaluable with people. So if you're setting business. If you're new to recruitment, um, get yourself out there. Um, and, um, I guess following that, candidates are king. As I mentioned before, candidates are your product. And I think your candidates, but also your clients, hopefully will see the value in you staying close to people, um, and being, you know, ultimately when they need you, either candidate or client, um, you know, a really valuable, ultimately, member of their team. Um, so yeah, meetings, meeting, meetings, and then candidates are king.

Carl, it's been a pleasure, mate.

Cheers, buddy. Appreciate it.