Khalifa Salim - From apprentice to senior manager, mastering closing, and the ULTIMATE day plan

Welcome back to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Khalifa Saleem, who works for a business called Thrive. And over the last 5 years, he's been on a pretty amazing journey. He joined the recruitment industry as an apprentice, had a really difficult start after doing really well, and then having a number of challenges which he had to learn from and improve on. And over the last 5 years, he's recently become the divisional business manager within the company that he works for. So he's successfully climbed the ranks. He's managing a team of 15 people. And Khalifa is someone that has absolutely worked his socks off to get to where he's got to. He's someone that clearly is always willing to learn. He had people doubt him. He had people say that he wasn't going to make something of himself and even question what he was doing in recruitment when it wasn't quite working out. But he persevered. He's built a name for himself in his market, and there's so much that we can learn from Khalifa's journey. Enjoy the episode. Khalifa, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me, man.

Looking forward to this. Um, as I was just saying, where we always like to start is the sort of million-pound question on this podcast. So I am going to ask you that, but I think just to frame it up for everyone who's going to be tuning in, I'm really excited to sort of dive into your journey, particularly around your leadership journey, um, talk to you a bit about how you went from being an apprentice, um, joining the recruitment industry at a young age, to then obviously progressing to where you are today. So just, just a bit of context for people, and then you let me know if I'm missing anything. But in terms of where you are today. You've been on coming up to nearly a 5-year journey in, in recruitment, and today you're the permanent divisional manager at Thrive. You're responsible for 15 people, 2 teams, and have 2 direct reports, and that's what we're going to break down today.

Sure, yeah, let's go for it.

So as I said, where we would like to start is I'd love to get your thoughts on this. So in, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you believe make up a highly successful recruiter in today's market?

The number one thing I think is work ethic. Like, you know, hard work beats talent, and if you've got that work ethic and that drive to like, you know, want to do better and put in the hours and, you know, be productive in those hours, then you should be successful. So in my opinion, yeah, first thing is work ethic. I think discipline as well. You know, you really need to be disciplined in this job and anything that you do. I think if you want to be successful, whether it's going to the gym, whether it's, you know, whatever career it might be or profession it might be, like, you need to be really disciplined. And in recruitment, you need that discipline. So work ethic, discipline, and a strong why. Like, a strong why, you know, solid motivations that keep you going on those days where you feel like giving up and quitting. You know, that solid why and that solid motivation is going to keep you going, and, you know, you're going to pick up that phone when you remember your why. So I'd say those three.

Yeah, I like that. On the solid why, what was yours?

It's a big one. I honestly think it's down to like my family really. Like, yeah, it sounds very cliché, making my family proud, but it's more than that. It's like I want to leave a legacy within my family and, you know, like, and I'm talking about here in the UK and back home in Tanzania. So I want to be able to improve like our community back there with, you know, being successful here and, you know, giving people opportunities abroad as well as here. And actually, like, you know, like creating a legacy for, for my family and my kids and my kids' kids. Um, yeah.

And like, I'm always interested in this, is that— have you sort of— has that evolved to like get to that point? Did it look slightly differently when you entered the industry as an apprentice, or did you sort of to find that anchor point quite early on, because I do feel like sometimes people can struggle to sort of articulate or really understand what their why is. But I think it is important in my own journey, and definitely it can evolve over time.

Yeah.

So was it— was it— obviously you can— I can tell how strongly you feel about that. Was it like that at the very beginning, or was it maybe more money, towards money, and then that, or was it always like that?

I think it was always like that, because, um, just, just to touch on that point, you know, when I got into recruitment I didn't know about the opportunities of like how much money you can make. You know, like I just went in as an opportunity, saw it as an opportunity. So I had no clue about the money side of it. I didn't know that you could actually, you know, make serious money. I think it's more coming down to like my parents' story and seeing my mum sacrifice a lot and then coming down here because she's got 13 siblings and she's the only one that made it out. So she sacrificed everything to kind of come over here and, you know, give us, gave me and my brothers and my siblings a better opportunity. So it kind of always— I'm doing the exact same thing, you know, trying to sacrifice whatever I can do to make sure that my, my existing family and then my future family also have much better opportunities than I was given. And yeah, so amazing.

Who— I'm always interested about this. So who was Khalifa before recruitment? How would you describe Khalifa before he entered recruitment?

Um, If we start from school days, you know, I was known, I was known by the teachers for all the wrong reasons. You know, I was that kid, bit of a menace, very cheeky, still very cheeky. I don't think that will ever leave me. But like, I didn't take school seriously. Like, I did not take school seriously at all. And I didn't take my education seriously. I just went to school to have fun. Like, we— so like in school, class clown kind of thing. And I always knew from school days that I am not going to be going to university, so I don't need to take my education seriously. That's the mentality that I had back then. And I knew just, just from early on, yep, I'm not going to university. I'm just going to finish school, grind, and just make money. And then as soon as I finished school, I was looking for my first apprenticeship. And then I secured an apprenticeship in St Thomas's Hospital. So I was working for a private pathology company doing some admin, customer service, working in the labs. And that, that was a great experience. You know, I'd done that for 12 months, learnt a lot, met a lot of people. I was 16, 17 at that time, and it was definitely good money for that age as well. Like, definitely good money. But it was a bit boring and I was like, where am I going to be in 5 years' time? 'You know, there's no real opportunity here.' And, you know, I learnt a lot, it was great, I worked with cool people, but it just wasn't a bit of me. So I started looking for my next apprenticeship. So that time it was, I'd done a Level 2 Business Admin apprenticeship. So I was looking for my next apprenticeship, and then I applied through like this apprenticeship agency, and they found me, they got me a few interviews. Done the first interview, didn't make it. Second interview, um, it was another recruitment company, if you could say a competitor, they didn't take me on. Um, and then I'd done the third one with, back then it was known as Lennon Wright, um, and I'd done it with John. And then I'd done the second interview, and then I'd done the third interview, and then yeah, John, John offered me the job as an apprentice resourcer.

So you, what, how old were you when you joined that?

17.

Wow, yeah, I love that. So I know you're quite passionate about this, I've seen some of your posts online and stuff. So probably a good time to ask it. Like, a lot of young people enter the recruitment industry, a lot of young people listen to this podcast, I guess. Why, what would be sort of, how would you communicate to people as to why they should consider going down the apprenticeship route? Uh, yeah, why, obviously clearly it's massively helped you, but like, what's sort of your message around that for people?

Yeah, just to put into context, like, I guess one of the reasons why I didn't as well want to go to university was because Back then I didn't really know how it would work and I used to see it on here like, oh, you're going to be going into debt, you know, £9k a year. And I was like, I don't even have money now. My parents don't have the money now. How the hell am I going to, you know, go into debt? So that was like the biggest turn-off at that point, you know, when you're like, you know, 13, 14 hearing you're going to be in debt. So then that's when I started thinking, okay, how can I actually make money? So an apprenticeship obviously gives you the opportunity to, you know, study and make money. And obviously get some good experience at the same time. So I think don't be picky about what apprenticeship you do. Obviously know what you want to do or know what industry you want to work in, but like an opportunity is an opportunity. If I was picky with the apprenticeship that I wanted, I probably wouldn't be where I am today. So like, just let the opportunity come to you and just use it as experience. And if you don't like it, move on, find somewhere else. But you won't regret that experience of doing an apprenticeship and getting that qualification.

Yeah, I love that. I'll probably have a similar mindset. I didn't go to university, but whenever I sort of interview young people on the podcast, and I've recently done like a graduate sort of early on in recruitment series, like, I don't know if you've seen this in maybe people you hired or met yourself, but I think when people do go university, they put so— I mean, they've already got a lot of pressure on themselves.

Yeah.

But they put so much pressure on themselves to get the perfect job after university, right? And I think when you're young, it's a perfect time to experiment. Like, how do you know if you like certain foods without trying that, right? And I think that's a really great way to sort of view your, yeah, work experience and the things you're going to get exposed to. You're not going to really know what it is that you really enjoy, what, what you really want to apply yourself in until you try different things. Yeah, you know, so I think that's great advice. So I guess final bit on this end, what What has a career in recruitment given you that maybe you least expected? So we're nearly 5 years on this journey now, what's it given you that you least expected, do you think?

22 with a bald patch? No, I'm joking. Well, that's part of it, it's there. But I think a mentor, you know, like one of my best clients who I've been working with for almost 4 years now, is a very good friend of mine. Still an existing client, but he's also a mentor. And this person is very, very successful, previously worked and founded businesses in San Fran, the Silicon Valley, multiple exits, very well known in the German scene as well as the San Fran scene. And yeah, he's just a very like, you know, switched on man. And, you know, he's advised me a lot of things, he's taught me a lot of things. And, you know, I never thought that I would, I would find a mentor like through recruitment by being one of my clients. So, uh, yeah, I would say I love that.

Yeah. And when you, when you say mentor, like, is this someone that— I'm sure it's happened over time, and mentor can sort of be looking, be shaped in different ways, right? People could sort of be a mentor to you without them even knowing it, right? So I guess in that context, he's obviously had a big positive impact on you. Is, is that someone that you speak to on a monthly basis? Do you have, like, do you meet up? Like, how— what is that relationship like? I think that's amazing that you've build that relationship with someone?

Yeah, we've met a few times in Munich, so yeah, we've had a lot of dinners, a few dinners. We've met before in Munich and we speak pretty much week in, week out, so, you know, WhatsApp, on Slack, you know, whenever I'm abroad I always send a picture, whenever he's abroad he'll let me know. And he obviously, like, knows my goals for the year as well, and he always just checks in and says, okay, how are you getting on with that, how are you getting on with that, what can I do to help you here?

And yeah, I think that's probably one of the things that people underestimate in recruitment, like the amazing people that you can meet and the connections that you make. So I have to ask you with that then, and then we'll move this on to sort of your career and your leadership journey and how that sort of progressed. But with him then, what if I say to you, what one piece of advice has he given you that you think has really impacted you or has really stuck with you? What comes up for you?

Gotta think about that one first. This is giving me a lot of advice. Play the long game, you know, like don't look for short wins. Because I remember when I first kind of met him, you know, I just wanted to do business and, you know, like I wasn't maybe delivering the best service. I was like, you know, I just want to make money from you kind of thing. But I didn't know like who he actually was until like years down the line. So yeah, I think it was more a thing like play the long game, like, you know, relationships are key and, you know, learn to, learn to like play the long game. If you don't get what you want now, it's not the end of the world. And yeah, just kind of patience. Patience. Yeah.

I think in today's world that's almost, that's, yeah, some people maybe have nonexistent, yeah, you know, instant gratification. We can get things with a click of a button.

Yeah.

So that's interesting. So just, I guess, useful because you've mentioned it a few times, useful context for people listening. We've had John on the podcast before, but obviously your entire career you've always recruited in the German market. And has it always been tech?

Always been tech.

And has it always been permanent recruitment?

Always been permanent.

Okay, cool. So I guess let's just talk about like more, more recent years then and this sort of leadership journey. A lot of people that listen to this podcast want to get and aspire to get into a leadership role. Um, obviously, when did your leadership journey start?

Officially, it was, um, when COVID happened, so 2020, around March, April 2020. Uh, unofficially, like, I was mentoring before, and, you know, whenever we had new hires, I would be, you know, mentoring them, helping them, training them, but I wasn't actually responsible for them. So I would say officially in 2020, so 2 years in now.

Um, Yeah, and up until that point, individual contributor, doing your own numbers, billing, that's all you was responsible for?

Yeah.

So, so on that, and then I'm going to sort of really sort of talk a bit about this 2-year journey that you've been on, like what I'd love to just sort of hear from your perspective is you've always been in perm, you're now driving sort of good permanent recruitment performance in your teams, what would you say are some of the sort of core principles of like mastering permanent recruitment. You've been doing it, I'm sure you're still actively involved now. So like, what comes up for you when it comes to like, if I want to master permanent recruitment, I want to be absolutely excellent, what are some of the principles that you think are going to enable sort of people listening to this to do that?

Yeah, I think, um, know your market. So whether that's tech, finance, whatever it might be, just like have a good understanding of, you know, who are the big players, you know, um If it's the technology stack, the tech stack's actually trying to understand them. So, you know, when you're able to have client calls and candidate calls, you'll be— you're able to understand them too. And kind of knowing about— so like, I specifically done Munich, for instance, so that was my niche. So knowing that market in general, as I said, knowing the big players, where the funding comes from, who are the, you know, key, key companies, who are the small companies, who are the big companies. And yeah, just like knowing that community of like your candidate community and your client community, and you're only going to know that through experience and, you know, speaking with more and more people. So knowing that market in general, although it sounds very vague, but no, I'll get you, man.

Just really commit to being an expert in understanding the nuances, what's going on. Yeah, yeah.

So in a nutshell, niching out, um, niching out so that, you know, you're, you're an expert in, in one specific area or technology or industry, whatever it might be. I would say again, play the long game. You know, when I started out doing perm, I was just looking for short wins, you know, because at that time we just had to, you know, keep the lights on and make sure we're making money. So I didn't think long term. So like actually thinking long term and building relationships and, you know, someone is not looking now, asking them, what would you be looking for when you are looking? So that you've already got a good amount of knowledge and you know already what they will be looking for. So that, you know, if someone does come up, you know, you can still send them to them and you've built some sort of foundation. So playing the long game and building relationships and making sure you're staying in touch with these people. So like, you know, dropping them a LinkedIn connection, dropping them an email with a little bit about what you guys do. Although they're not looking right now, speaking with them in a few weeks or a few months and then just keeping in touch. Also, I would say add value. Like, whatever you do, try to add value, whether you're speaking to a candidate or a client. And it doesn't have to be in your interest. You know, they don't have to be hiring or looking for a job. You know, if you see something on the CV that you can, you know, give them some advice on, do that. If you can give them some insight on the market, do that. If you can tell them about, like, give them some tips on hiring, do that. So like, add value in whatever you do and whoever you speak to, just aim to leave that call with adding value because that's how they'll remember you. And then when the time is right and they're looking for a job or they're looking to hire, they'll remember you because you added value. So definitely add value in everything that you do. I would also say like, time management is a big, big thing. And you know, like organisation. So I come from an admin background in the hospital, so like I was quite good at, you know, management, organization, and planning and stuff like that. So that's really, really important because you need to know when to call that person, you need to know when to do this, you need to know— and obviously you're going to have guidance from your manager, but a lot of that is going to come down to you if you want to be a really good recruiter. So having that in place and having like, you know, some real competence in that area is going to help you a lot. Because one thing I was quite good at was tracking things. So I'll have like a spreadsheet And every good conversation that I had, I would put in. Every lead that I have will be very detailed, and I'm known in the business for being very, very detailed. So I would make sure that like everything that I do, I, I'm on point with it and I'll remember things.

I love that. Yeah, so be— commit to being an expert, play the long game, build relationships, add value, sort of every— try and add value in, in sort of every interaction. So Khalifa, everyone that listens to this podcast loves a breakdown of a day plan, so I think this is, this is the perfect time to ask it. So it'd be really good just to hear sort of how you remain disciplined, how you broke down your day, yeah, how you really ensured that you maximised each day, especially in 360 recruitment. Like, that's what I did, and I know a lot of people struggle with doing the candidate side. BD is difficult. So let— yeah, please share that with us in terms of before you went into management, because I know it changes.

Yeah.

Then, so when you're an individual contributor managing your own performance, what did that look like?

So normally I would get into the office for around 7 AM, 7:15, because obviously our market is Germany and they're one hour ahead. And between 7 and 7:30 I'll plan my day. So I'll use Trello or like a diary, and then I'll work in sprints. So we'll have like 4 sprints And yeah, like between 7, 7:30, I'll be planning my day. I'll have like a to-do list, so I'll know exactly what I need to do because that to-do list would have been done the day before. And I would obviously have an idea of what I want to do from the day before. It's just about like implementing them in the morning. So I would plan it out, change anything if anything happened overnight, and I'll set up my sprint for like 8 to 10, would be a lot of BD. So that would be BD, um, and then 10 to 12 would be candidates, resourcing, and then lunch will be from 12 to 1, and then 1 to 3, uh, BD, and then 3 to end of the day back into resourcing. So I know it's quite vague, but, um, why the 2-hour sprints? It works, it works, and it's the perfect balance of getting 50/50. 4 sprints 2 hours BD, 2 hours candidate. And obviously, depending on what's on my desk, if I had a lot of jobs and they needed to be worked on, I would 75% of the time resource. If I had minimal jobs, then obviously I would spend more time doing BD. But I've always made sure that I've got a good mix at all times, and it fell into a routine. And I think that's really important in recruitment, you know, at whatever stage you're at, you need a routine. Again, it falls back down to the discipline, and when you have a routine in place, things become a lot easier.

So where— great breakdown. Where do you— obviously, I'm sure you help a lot of people with this. Where do people go wrong with this? Because it can— I can walk in tomorrow and do the 2-hour sprints. You have to have discipline to make it happen, like you said, try and work on it being a routine. So where do you think people typically, yeah, have a stumbling block, a hurdle on actually doing doing what you just said.

Yeah, I think when you don't get results from doing something, you think, oh, let me change it up. As soon as you change it up, yeah, you messed it. I'm not saying don't try new things, but what I am saying is trust the process. You know, just because, you know, you've done 2, 3 sprints of it and in the week and it didn't work, or you didn't get the results you wanted, it doesn't mean that it's not going to come. You know, like, I've been through a lot of sprints where I've got no results, a lot of weeks where I've got no results, and I just kept doing it, kept doing it, that consistency, and then it would just come. So, you know, when things turn, like, when things don't work out, a lot of consultants panic and think, oh shit, I'm doing something wrong. But no, you're not doing something wrong. You just need to trust the process and wait for the results to come in. Sometimes it might take longer than expected, but that's fine as long as you're putting in the work for it. It will eventually come.

So on that, obviously I know we're going quite granular here, but people, this, this is what a lot of people get value out of. So just on that, I have to ask, and I'm also curious, what would you say are the sort of, like you said, trust the process, what would you say, I know you said BD, candidate, um, obviously do your day plan before you leave, these things, but what would you say are like the core activities for a permanent recruiter that they should, that they should be committing to doing, which is the process that if they keep doing that, if they're obviously doing it in a good quality way or they're doing it in the right way, or yeah, they really commit to the process, that it should play out and they should start seeing results. What are those like absolute fundamental activities that you probably drive in your team that they have to do each day out of interest?

On the client side, it's having good conversations. Now that's hard to measure, right? Because everyone's, you know, expectations of good are different. But as long as you feel like you had a good conversation and you somehow added value, or you learned something about that client that you didn't know before that conversation, that was a good conversation. Um, and obviously, hopefully getting them a forward action. So, you know, I think, you know, having a certain amount of good client conversations a day, um, eventually it's a numbers game, right? So eventually that will lead to forward actions, and that will lead to proposals being sent out. And, um, that, that is honestly like the number one thing I look at on the client side. You know, good conversations, good quality business conversations. It can be personal as well, but as long as you've had that good conversation, that's what matters to me. Because if you have a lot of good conversations, again, it will turn into future business. On the candidate side, it would be— so it depends on the role that you do, because if you're doing 360, then obviously like you need that mix. But if you're like 180 or 270, like it's a bit different. But Let's just say 360 on the candidate side, obviously, like, you know, candidate qualification, you know, getting some CVs out, getting interviews, but also like market insight is a big one. Market insight, so like actually finding out what's going on in the market, who's paying what, where are they interviewing, obviously leads, references, a bit of PPP, and, you know, just like adding them to some sort of talent pool where, you know, you know that they're good at this. So if I need to, you know, find them again, I can find them here. So yeah, yeah, that's good.

That's— I know that'd be really helpful for people. So before we get onto the leadership piece, and I have to ask you, we've kept it quite positive, you've spoken about the principles, time management, these things. Like, I know how hard you've worked to get the position that you are in. So let's just hear, like, on your— as a perm biller, on that journey, what do you think would you say has been one of the biggest, let's say, challenges or biggest hurdles that you had to break through that you think really enabled you to kick on? Like, what was the thing that kept maybe making you fall short at whatever period you get? I mean, what was one of those, those challenges that you really worked hard to break through?

I think the first one was, so I was meant to do my apprenticeship for 12 months as a recruitment resourcer. Um, 6 months in, um, I've done 5 placements and I was promoted to a 360 consultant. For the next 6 months of that apprenticeship, I didn't do any deals. So I just, you know, I've just done 5 placements, like, yeah, it's finally clicked. Um, okay, time to do 360. The next 6 months, no placements, just graft. And I was like, this is hard. Um, and it's because I was so used to being a 180, you know, resourcer. You know, 360 is a whole nother game. And, you know, you have to do things differently, you have to act differently, you have to think differently. And you have to produce differently as well because it's not the same. So I struggled to kind of get into that, get into that kind of rhythm and that routine of doing 360 because I was so used to one way for 6 months. So yeah, eventually at the end of my apprenticeship, I done my first deal as a 360 and obviously I got offered the job. And for the next 3 months I blanked. So I was like, when is this going to end? Like, when is this going to end? And finding that consistency was a big, big, big challenge for me for about almost 2 years. I wasn't consistent for almost 2 years. It was a lot of ups and downs. But what did remain consistent was the activity and the work rate. So trust in the process. I was there still early, finishing late, working on the weekends when I had to, putting in the time and stuff and learning as well throughout the process. And that work rate was just there. The results, they were there sometimes, sometimes they weren't. And I struggled to get consistent.

Hey everyone, a real quick one from me. This podcast would not be possible without our amazing podcast partners, Vincere and Sourcebreaker. Because you listen to this podcast, you're able to get your hands on exclusive savings on both of these award-winning products. If you're a growing recruitment business, you have to check out Vincere, who are an all-in-one operating system for your growing recruitment business. With Sourcebreaker, if you want to make sure that all of your recruiters have the best tools on the market to stand out and beat their competition, then you have to check out Sourcebreaker. Use the link in the show notes, in the comments below, and you'll be able to get yourself exclusive savings on these amazing products. I appreciate sharing that because this is so common, so I'm glad you shared that. So just on, just on this then, I've been asking quite a few people this and I think it helps a lot of people. So A lot of people go on that recruitment roller coaster, that journey you just described, and a lot of people quit. I think that is one of the many reasons why people enter our industry and leave it, because of that lack of consistency, the highs and lows. The lows can be super low, highs can be really high. So what ended up— obviously, clearly what you said, what I really liked is that you focus on the things that you can control, your activity, your work ethic, these things. What ended up being your sort of Did you have any sort of rituals or things that you used to do that really helped you not let the lows take over? And when you blanked again and you blanked again, that didn't mean then go every day, Khalif, was moody, as grumpy as affecting your activity and your motivation. What did you do to make sure, like, yeah, you snapped out of it or you got up and you got right, we go again? What sort of things did you do to help you with that?

To be honest, a lot of it is more like the other way around. A lot of things were being done to me, you know. I was being doubted a lot by my friends and my family, and that fueled me. Like, that fueled me. I remember I used to, like, come back from work at, like, 18 years old, 19 years old, at, like, 9 PM sometimes. 8 PM was quite common. And they used to look at me and say, bro, like, you're 18, like, it's just a job, just quit, like, it's not that deep. And then I used to spend my weekends, like, every Saturday I would always go to the office, There was no remote working back then, and we had— there was no laptops either, it was just desktop. So on my Saturdays, I used to go into the office because I was young and I had nothing to lose and everything to gain. And they would just— my friends and my family would just look at me like, like, what the hell? Like, it's not that, you know, just, just quit. So then that really fueled me because, you know, it really like, yeah, it touched me because I was there thinking, you know, you don't see what I do there. Like, I graft and it's really difficult and I'm not getting results, but I'm not quitting. Because I honestly thought that if I could do this job well and be successful in this game, then I could do anything. That's how hard it was for me. And if you're in recruitment, you would know how hard it is at the beginning. But imagine it being, you know, 17, 18 years old, and your competitors are, for instance, FaZe and Sunnee, and they're like proper, proper on it. So, uh, yeah, like, it was pro— it was really, really tough.

Yeah. So you— yeah, you use that as motivation. That's fair. No, I love that. So let's talk about this leadership journey then. So it started just before COVID not ideal. Officially, I know you told me, so your first hire in your team joined just before COVID right?

On the day that they announced the lockdown in the UK, I made him the offer and yeah, accepted.

So you had to start your leadership journey managing someone remotely, and I'm assuming you didn't do that before, haven't done that before? No. Right, yeah, so that's interesting. So I guess let's just start with like, you're responsible for 15 people at the moment. How do you think people in your team would describe you as a manager, as a leader?

Um, very no filter, as in, you know, like I don't beat around the bush. I'm very honest, very transparent, um, critical in a good way. Um, like I always look at— obviously recognition is always there, and I always give recognition but always look at how you can improve in the smallest of ways. I always look at how you can improve because that's how I was, you could say, raised by my manager. And I love that and that made me who I am today. So I'm going to do the exact same thing with my guys. Quite cheeky, maybe cheesy cheeky. That side will never leave me. And some say serious. And all of them say there's two sides of me. You know, there's my professional self and then there's my social self. Um, yeah.

How, how have you gone about— so you just mentioned there how a lot of people obviously end up utilizing or using approaches to leadership management that they've experienced themselves and sort of pass that on. How have you— what sort of, uh, leadership— I don't know, you could call them principles, approaches, whatever— have you ended up cultivating yourself on your own journey? I think it's important to build out your own philosophies and the things that you really believe in. What are some of those that you sort of maybe evolved over the last 2 or so years?

I think the biggest one is trust. You know, my manager really trusted me, and John really trusted me to, you know, do the job. You know, otherwise they would have hired me, right? So I wasn't being micromanaged, and, you know, they trusted that, you know, I can do the job. So when that meant me trying different things that the company hasn't done before, or trying to bring on new ideas, you know, I had that trust of 'Okay, give it a go.' And obviously that trust of making my own kind of plan, you could say, of what I want to do or what I want to achieve. Because, you know, I'm not going to hire someone to not, like, trust them to do the job. You know, if you're hired, first of all, in our team, you know, that's a big thing. So yeah, trust is the number one. I would say openness as well. Having that, you know, open transparency kind of thing where at any point they can just pull me in and say, hey, I need to speak to you about something. And at the same time, I could do the same to them. And I'm always open for ideas. I love, I always tell the guys, you know, bring ideas for competitions, for change, because I'm always open to that because that's exactly how it was like before. So I always love, like, you know, hearing other people's ideas and trying different things. And yeah, and I would say as well, like, the motivation. So with everyone in the team, we do like a motivation exercise, and every so often we remind everyone in the team what our why is, so that everyone in the team knows exactly what the person opposite them or next to them, what their why is. So if they're maybe not performing as well or they're a bit down, they're responsible for reminding them their why. It's not just me, it comes down to them. So knowing the motivation of what keeps them going, what makes, what makes them wake up early in the morning, um, is really important because, you know, that's, that's gonna, that's gonna be the thing that, that's gonna make them successful.

So yeah, I love that. So just, just quickly on that, I think that's really interesting. Two things. One, how as a manager, leader, have you like uncovered that? Is it as simple as asking questions, getting them to be vulnerable with you, have honest conversations. And then two, what— yeah, I'd love to just hear just really quickly afterwards what that sort of group setting looks like. Is it a thing you do on a weekly basis, or— I don't know, I think that'd be interesting to people. So how do you uncover it? Because I think it can't— you can't tell someone what their why is, do you know what I mean? So I think it is a real skill to sort of— if I'm managing you, to sort of uncover that? Some people are good at opening up quite quickly, some people aren't, you know what I mean? So how have you gone about uncovering that?

Yeah, so it's— we call it the motivations exercise. So it's like, um, you know, there's certain questions that you'd ask, um, you know, and that would include what demotivates them as well, um, and obviously finding out about their goals, their professional goals, their personal goals, um, what drives them How motivated they are right now. If they're at 8, how can we get that to a 10? So there's questions that we ask, and you know, our senior managers, we obviously know the questions, and you know, we ask everyone who we've hired, you know, those questions to try and cover them a little bit. And it's quite natural actually, because it's actually an enjoyable task for them as well, because a lot of the times it gets them thinking, and they sometimes don't even know their why. So it actually gets them to actually understand it a little bit, and you know, they have a bit of clarity too.

Is that on the interview stage, this first week, maybe as part of onboarding?

On the very first day.

Yeah, nice.

On the very first day. And I tend to do it every 6 months because people's motivations change. Yeah. So on the very first day, we'll do that motivations exercise, and then every 6 months we would redo it again.

And then, and then how do you, how do you then remind people? I think that's really cool. Is it on a weekly, monthly basis?

Yeah. So every Monday we have something called the Zone. Yeah, the zone is like, it's a kickoff. So I host the zone with the whole perm team, and the whole point of it is so that everyone's in the zone, no laptops, and everyone's also contributing into the zone as well. So it's not just me speaking about the weekly plan and the targets and what we need to achieve, and it's everyone contributing. So, um, every, ever so often we would, we would always like bring it up and everyone would remind themselves, and it'll be, it'll be quite motivational, you know, hearing all these different things. And, um, yeah, the zone.

So talk to me about— a lot of people, like, you'll often hear this. So just quickly, on this sort of 2-year journey, have you always been billing?

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm sure you've heard this, right? Billing manager, most difficult job in the industry. What's your— you've spoken about some of the things that you've worked hard on and things that you do with your team. People listening that are in the thick of this journey, in that transition of being like just worrying about my own billings to worrying about other people's billings and my own billings at the same time, what's your advice for people to navigate that, that path of becoming a billing manager in their first year, first two years? I know you're still in it, but yeah, what would your advice be to people?

Yeah, uh, first of all, like, you can't control how much they bill in a way, like You can't, like, obviously you can have an influence and you can guide them to a certain point and you can motivate them to a certain point, but you know, you can't make them a million-pound billah or half a million-pound billah. That has to come from them. But what you can do is influence them, guide them, point them in the right direction, coach them, train them, support them, and you know, be there for them. So as long as you do that part right, the other part will come. But don't think that, you know, yeah, I'm going to turn this person into a million-pound biller, and when they don't, I'm doing a terrible job. So that's the first thing. Um, as well, I think it's important to like have that trust again in them to actually perform, um, and do well. And it's important as a billing manager to identify, you know, your team's weaknesses. And individuals' weaknesses, because you're going to need to help them improve that, because they're not probably gonna— like, they might know it, but they might not know how to improve it. So it's your job to make sure those weaknesses are plugged in and, you know, they become strengths and those strengths become stronger. So that's your job, I think. Um, oh, that's part of your job.

Yeah, I love that. So obviously, I think that this— this— as we're coming to the end here, I wanted to ask you about someone that I know that you're super proud of. And I think it's just interesting because I think a lot of people listen to this that are in a management role will have people in their teams that are struggling, that see the potential but maybe just continue to fall short. So I obviously wanted to ask you about— I forgot his name now, is it Marcus?

Matt.

Why do I keep saying Marcus? Yeah, Matt. Sorry, sorry, sorry, Matt. So I guess just a bit of background, and then it would just be good to hear your thoughts on like Obviously it was down to Matt, right? But what do you think you sort of really dialled into to help him unlock his potential, right? So really short backstory, and you let me know what I'm missing here, but obviously Matt more recently top bill in your company.

Yeah, last year.

Yeah, last year, in the perm team. The whole company, but like he was in the perm team, right? But before that he was in the contract part of the business. And was struggling. Yeah, yeah. May use the word failing, but just struggling, right? So may even got to a point where it's like, right, is he going to carry on with his recruitment career? Is his time here over? Or yeah, is he going to carry on and pushing on? And that's when he joined your business, right? Yeah, you're part of the business. So the reason why I'm asking this is I just know there will be people, managers and leaders, where yeah, they'll have people like Matt in their business. They're like, I know this guy can do it, I know this guy can do really well. So when he joined your part of the business, what are some of the things, and maybe throughout the journey, do you think you really helped him with, that you focused on, that you dialed in on, dialed in on, that you feel has really enabled him to build his confidence, to maximize his potential, do you think?

Yeah, I think, um, to start off with, just, just on that note, you know, a lot, a lot of the times in recruitment businesses, there's the right people just in the wrong seats. Yeah, so he was definitely the right person but just in the wrong seat. And I, and I quickly discovered that, and, you know, that's, that's why I also wanted him to be part of my team eventually. Um, but what— so he had a contract background, he was doing contract for almost 1 year. Um, so, you know, contract game is very like quick, you know, you're not really thinking long term as you would on the permanent side. You're not as detailed. There's not much of closing, like candidate closing. So there was a lot to learn on the perm side, right? Because you're used to doing it this way. So I had to help him and support him with the level of detail when it comes to candidate qualification, taking the job spec, certain calls, because, you know, perm, there's always a build-up. It's a process. It's not just one call, you get a job, you fill it in the next 3 hours. So the level of detail, also a big part of it was like the processes and having to like trust the process of takes one call, then this, then you've got to do that, then you've got to do that, because there isn't any of that in contracts really. So trying to like educate him about the processes and kind of get him up to scratch with that was quite difficult, but it happened quickly. So, um, and the biggest part was, was closing. Um, so in the business I'm quite well known for closing. Um, so like, this is on candidate closing. So like, when I was billing, or you could say for the last 3 years, like, I've had one offer drop every year.

Really?

Yeah.

So even in like recent— I know a lot of people that's been really difficult.

This year one, last year one, the year before one.

Oh wow.

And that comes down to the level of detail that I have when I speak to candidates. So that was a big part, you know, helping him close, because he had everything else, you know. The work ethic was definitely there, the drive was definitely there, the willingness to learn was definitely there. And he would a lot of the times get offers and they would drop, or like he would get candidates but he wouldn't be able to close them. And that was my area in the business, closing. So I taught him how to close. It took about 6 months. So the majority of his billings came from H2 last year, and that's, that's as soon as it clicked for him how to close, uh, he became—

So I have to ask on that just before we, before we finish. Where— so let's just focus on, you said around how good you are in your detail. Where do people go wrong then, like, on this? So this would be helpful for people. I know, I'm sure you've seen it, right? Candidate sport for choice. Like, it's, it's been really difficult, and I've spoke to loads of recruiters that have said that they've had to deal with way more dropouts than usual. But would call themselves good closers and these things. Like, where do you think people typically go wrong where it could be resulting in more dropouts and missed opportunities?

Yeah, I think being brave, you know, like if you know that that candidate is never going to take that offer or that candidate actually doesn't like that process, like pull them out, you know, like, you know, take ownership of that and be brave to make decisions and be brave to push back on your clients and tell them that they need to offer this person because they're a great asset to the business, but they just don't know it yet. So being brave to make certain decisions, because one thing about me, like, whenever I was speaking to candidates, if I saw a red flag or if I thought that there was a red flag, I would address it with the candidate. I would have a very, you know, transparent conversation with them. Sometimes, or a lot of times, it was difficult conversations that the candidates didn't like to have, but it had to be done. And I would address certain things and then speak things into existence and put scenarios in their head. So then I know, okay, so if this happens, they'll do this. If this happens, they'll do this. And then I'll have a full mapped out kind of picture. So then I'll be able to push someone else in who might be more interested. So then kind of like, it's a bit like playing chess, you could say. Um, so that was one thing I see a lot of newer recruiters, like, they would see a red flag or they would see something that's like a bit like, that's a concern, and they wouldn't address it because they're scared to know the answer or they're scared to be disappointed, or they really want that deal to go in, so they're just gonna act like they didn't hear that. So address those things.

Yeah, I love that, and I really like the scenario thing. So yeah, like you said, play out certain scenarios that could happen, and you're going to see how they react and what they would do, and then you're going to have way more better of an idea when that does happen, how it's going to play out, right?

Exactly.

So look, let's end on this, Khalifa. I think it'll be a nice thing to end on. Like, as you've mentioned, see, look, Khalifa, let's end on this. As I said, you've worked your absolute socks off, had people doubt you, family, friends, and always like to ask people in your business questions I should ask you in these things. And when I reached out to John, uh, he said that he should— I should definitely ask you about this. And I know that we spoke and I knew this happened, but didn't know this was the case, which was obviously recently you took your entire family to Tanzania in the summer. That's pretty special, right? And he knew how much that meant to you and sort of how proud he is of that. So yeah, like, let's end there. Like, what did that feel like? These same people that maybe, as I said, said to you that you shared with us, right, that it's just a job, it's not that deep— he was able to provide that. I know that's really important to you. So how did that feel?

Yeah, no, it was a good feeling because that was one of my goals. Um, so I've got 15 goals this year: 5 personal, 5 professional, and 5 monetary goals. Um, And that was one of my personal goals, you know, to expense and pay for my whole family's trip to Tanzania, where we're from. And yeah, it was a good feeling, like knowing they're still out there except me. I was there for 2 weeks, so they're still out there. They'll be back in a few weeks. But yeah, like it's just a good feeling, like knowing that because I've got one older brother and the rest are all younger, like, so like my little sisters weren't down with me. It was more like my brother and my mum and aunties and uncles and stuff. So like, it's just a good feeling being able to do that, you know, and kind of see that they're out there and not because of me, but like they're enjoying themselves and they deserve it.

Better than any commission pay pack, that feeling?

Oh, 100%. 100%. I mean, yeah, yeah. Honestly speaking, yeah, nice. Yeah. It's definitely a good feeling.

I love that. Cleef, it's been an absolute pleasure, mate. Thanks for joining me.

Thank you, Hishem. Thanks for having me.

Bosh, mate, that's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.