Kyle Winterbottom - Learnings from recruiting in Manchester, Dubai & New York.

This is the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm in Manchester. I'm joined by Kyle Winterbottom, who is an Associate Director for Lawrence Harvey. And for those that can't see, he's in a checkered short-sleeved shirt and a very flowery top. So I think let's start there, mate. Why the hell are you in this attire, mate?

Yeah, great question, mate. So it was off the back of a really cool incentive that we decided to set to Blackpool. Kind of at the back end of H1, so a H2 incentive. And yeah, you've picked to interview me on the day that we're doing the sales day that goes with that.

So is this the clubber that you're going to be wearing in Blackpool?

Absolutely not, mate. Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah, I mean, look, I've got me, I've got me flip-flops on, so yeah, all sorts, mate.

Well, look, thank you for joining me, mate. Looking forward to this. And, um, as I was just saying, look, where I always like to start How did, uh, Kyle enter the world of recruitment, mate? Talk to me.

I guess it's probably very similar to, uh, to a lot of people, mate, to be honest with you. So we, uh, I'd lived out in the US and worked in— well, played football out there on a scholarship.

Okay.

Um, kind of did an MBA. Whereabouts?

In what state?

Charlotte, North Carolina.

Okay. My— one of my close friends did that, right? And he did it in, um, oh, I can't remember. I can't remember, it was annoying. But he did that, had that experience.

Yeah, so I just went over there on like a 2-year program to get a master's degree. Did that, played football for 2 years, came out of there.

What was the level like?

Good, football-wise? Yeah, good, mate. We had some, so I mean, probably shouldn't say this because it's probably against some regulations, but like ex-England, ex-Spain, under-18 players and captains.

And you know, because obviously it's still very much, you still got to do your education, like that's still just—

Yeah, you're a student athlete. Yeah.

Yeah, that's the thing. Okay, yeah. What position do you play?

Center half.

I thought so.

Yeah, I started out back in the day as a center forward and, you know, I just got bigger and slower.

So, uh, nice, mate. So did you, did you get any opportunity in the UK to play football or anything like that? Or because that's normally the path, right? Or even in America?

Yeah, so very early on, um, I mean very early on, so age 10, and I was kind of in and around the, the scene of a few local kind of pro clubs. Um, Mainly Man United, but it was a very brief stint, more, more in the kind of, I guess, you know, trialing type of environment.

It's funny you say that. We were talking, I was in there when I was last working in the Hunted offices, I was having a chat with Joe Mella there and we're just talking about football and stuff and we're saying how like you will always hear someone say, yeah, when I was 8 years old I had trials at United or Blackburn or Bolton. Yeah, it's just so easy to hear that, you know what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely.

Did you actually have trials at United, mate?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, played in a few games for them and stuff, but, you know, in an unofficial offseason capacity.

Yeah, sure.

That didn't work out, you know, not a sob story.

So football didn't happen?

Football didn't happen. You know, age 12, I had 4 operations to remove a kidney. So really? Yeah, that was why that didn't happen. Yeah, that's why.

But instead you went to America. And how old were you at that point?

So I finished university in England, went over to America. So I had to be— how would I have been? 21.

Oh, wow. Okay.

So I did 2 years there.

So really gave it a go. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fully committed. And then, and then was there was a point where you're like, actually, it's not going to happen?

Yeah. I mean, when you're playing over there, you know, you're a student first, you're an athlete second. It's just, you know, you play football to pay your way, basically, you know. So the university effectively pays for your studies. but over there, you know, it was a smaller private school, so the tuition fees were pretty expensive. So I got the bulk of that paid for, which was good, you know, set me in good stead. And then I went into, I guess I was trying to find a job that sponsored me for a visa, because that's a big issue out there, obviously no experience. So I went into, I guess, one of these pyramid type schemes. It was B2B, so selling I guess we were an outsourced sales office for Staples, you know, the office suppliers. So it was like territorial-based.

Was it door knocking?

Yeah, just walk.

My mate did this, my mate did this but was selling lawnmowers. Yeah, that's mad.

So it was a steep learning curve, mate, but I think obviously, yeah, you know, you was walking into businesses, mate, with, you know, you had a script that you'd learn and you just set off going. It was, you know, really old school. So you had a catalog, you had to take the order there and then. It was no appointments, you know, so it was you know, sales 101. Yeah, um, you know, I'm not coming back type of thing, we've got a promotion and all that kind of jazz. Um, and I did really, really, really well at that. I earned a lot of money at a very young age.

Really?

Yeah, I think you did well, probably because of the accent, mate, if I'm honest.

Yeah, really?

Because yeah, it was in the south of the, in the south of the US with, you know, young British lad with a, with an accent kind of coming in selling paper and pens and printers that, you know, you need really.

So that's such a good grounding though.

Absolutely.

In terms of where you ended up. Okay, so then, so you did that and then what, you ended up coming back to the UK?

Yeah, I came back home. So it got to the point where, um, I guess I was working in, uh, in a capacity where you're like, uh, on an extension of your student visa. Yeah, to gain work experience, if you will. Um, and then yeah, it came time for them to sponsor me and there was a whole host of trouble with, with kind of that because I guess the US immigration, as you, you're probably aware, you know, you've got a justify why you're giving a job to a British person when there's a very capable American person there to do it. So decided to pack up and come back home. And yeah, I guess how I got into recruitment was I was applying for sales roles. I thought, you know, I'd done really well in a sales role out there. I was just applying sales-type roles. I actually spoke to a rec-to-rec who I thought I was interviewing for.

Every now and then, tons of people have said this.

Yeah, so end of the conversation, I was kind of like, okay. And he's like, right, I'm gonna put you to a few of our clients.

And I was like, what?

Yeah, what is this? That's actually mad.

That's actually mad, that how often that happens. Okay, so then, um, and then I'm assuming interviewed a few places and then you ended up at the renowned S3. Yeah, yeah. And what year was this?

Remember, 2011?

2011, yeah. And that was in Manchester. Okay, cool. And then just to sort of set the scene then, so you worked there for how many years?

S3 in total was about 4 and a half years.

4 and a half years, yeah. And during that period of time, obviously before that, you obviously didn't just stay in the UK, is that right? You also went to Dubai? Yeah. Um, and then after Dubai went to America? Yeah, yeah, again. And then after America You came back to UK.

Yep.

And then obviously we're at this point. Yeah. Okay, mate. Well, I'm looking forward to unpacking this, mate.

Yeah, I'm sure you are.

So cool. So 4 and a half years at Esprit. I think obviously you said before, so that was all contract, was it?

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So where I always like to just get people to start is because, is the sort of first 12 months. And how that was, just because my own experience is really difficult. I'm sure now when you've managed people, that is a real difficult period. Um, I mean, I guess for you, you've, you've been, uh, you would have had that experience of being punched in the mouth face to face, which would have helped, right?

A few staples thrown at me.

Yeah, exactly. Getting that rejection, that, that must have helped. Um, but how, how were, uh, your first 12 months, mate, in the sort of esprit Manchester environment?

Um, initially really tough. I think obviously I'd come from a direct sales role where you're used to doing 4 or 5 sales a day to an environment where it's like, you know, you're expected to do 1 or 2 deals a month. Yeah. So the pace of it was—

that's interesting.

Yeah, to me was really slow. Yeah. Which now, you know, I guess it's quite interesting because obviously contract is in recruitment terms typically fast-paced, more faster.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, to be honest with you, I struggled.

What was the market?

So BI contracts, pretty much. Mainly Oracle technologies.

Okay.

I think I was massively lucky because I started working at S3 for Computer Futures. So obviously their tech brand and there was a great management and leadership team there, but there was a few like serious heavy hitters.

Really? Really good billers?

You know, doing, you know, 10, 12, 14, 15 grand a week, like contract billers that, you know, you're just kind of sitting listening to and just picking up. Whatever you can get hold of, really.

So, okay, so why was it tough? What did you find? So you mentioned about the pace, that obviously that was an adjustment, but what— why did you find it so tough early on?

Um, I think one of the biggest things for me, obviously I'd had 18 months sales experience, just being able to influence people face to face, and now you're trying to do it over the phone. And I guess that was a reservation when I interviewed, you know, they were kind of saying to me, you know, you're used to being in front of people, um, Do you think that'll kind of put you at a disadvantage? You know, at the time I was like, nah, I'm cool. Yeah, I've got it. I'll do this. So, but I think first 6 months I really struggled. I didn't do a deal till month 6.

Really?

Yeah. And I was just, you know, I was one of them. I was working, I was typically up there for top of the call times, top of the KPI stats.

But nothing was coming off.

And nothing was coming off. And I think I remember to this day, my manager was just kind of saying, look, just, 'Be patient, like, you're doing the right things.' That's interesting. 'It'll happen.' And we had a slight switch in market, kind of month 4 or 5, and then month 6 it hit and did my first deal, and then it was like deal, deal, deal. So I think the first 6 months were super tough. Like, there were times where I was like, 'Hmm.' Think about that. Yeah, I don't think this is for me.

Why did you continue then?

Uh, I think that's just me, mate. That's my person. Yeah, I just, I love to win and I hate being defeated.

So, uh, yeah, clearly obviously competitive.

Yeah, I think it was certainly that element of it for me, but it was more, more self-competitive, you know. I kind of couldn't— probably a pride thing, really. Like, I didn't want to kind of let myself down by walking away.

But I guess what would— it's really interesting you say that around your, um, was it your manager that said, Carl, keep doing It's the right activity, you put in the right work ethic, it'll pay off. Because I got that advice as well. So I mean, I did my first deal in 3 months, but I had a shit first year, mate. Like, I didn't build a lot at all. But he kept saying to me, he should keep doing what you're doing, it'll pay off, blah blah blah, and you will sort of experience a bit of a tipping point where things just start to click. So did that— do you think that helped in terms of knowing that the people around you said, Carl, you are doing the right things, you are doing the right activities? That you knew though, I'm sure that helped you believe that it is going to happen or whatever and get through it.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think, look, I'd never done recruitment before, so I was just listening to what people were telling me. You know, there were, I think, you know, naturally S3 is an environment where there's a load of good people and a lot of people make it and there's some that don't. And it's, you know, so naturally I was kind of like, you know, it's not quite clicking for me. So there's a lot of concern on that front. But I think, you know, it was, yeah, obviously it was nice to hear, you know. Yeah. Especially when there's members of the team, mate, like literally smashing in 8, 9 contract deals a month, you know, and you're kind of sat there going, oh God, soul destroying. But yeah, you know, obviously it's nice to—

but ended up that first year doing okay. Yeah, yeah.

So I ended up going on the kind of incentive trip as like from— they used to run the competitions in like leagues, you know, for Budapest. Yeah, in, in December. Freezing. But, but yeah, no, it was, it was good. So I guess month 6 to, you know, month 12, you kind of just snowball. And yeah, I kind of came into, uh, to year 2 with, you know, about a £4K or £5K contract.

Okay. So before we move on, very quickly, what I'd love to, um, just get your thoughts on through that experience. So my experience is permanent recruitment, right? But just quickly before we move on, thinking, um, people listening right now who are early on in their contract recruitment career, what, looking back now, what, what do you think? So it took obviously the, that 6-month period of you obviously having the activity and these types of things, which obviously is part of the game. But what, anything, any advice around that, that someone that's early on, should they be really doubling down on the, um, I don't know, getting jobs in, building the right relationships, or I don't know, because I don't really understand the complete nuances in the Yeah, might be a bit different.

Like, I think, um, look, I think I was really lucky in that the setup that we had at S3 was, you know, we had a super slick process, really. So for us, you know, I remember our ratios in terms of, you know, jobs pulled to jobs placed, you know, we categorized the jobs. Yeah, it was, it was stupidly high. Um, and I think that was just down to a really slick process, you know. So we had to have the job signed off by management and all that type of stuff, and I think that You know, to a lot of people that probably sounds like, geez, that's a bit on top. But I think that allowed us to, you know, know that we could go and I could go and pull, you know, a job a month. That was my mindset. If I can go and pull a couple of jobs a month, I'm probably going to fill them, you know. So whereas, you know, I know from my own experience, there's sometimes where your ratios are much higher than that. You know, you might need to go and pull 8, 10 jobs a month to do a couple of deals.

Well, I guess that process enabled you to work the right jobs, right?

Absolutely.

If you pulled a job and then your manager's like, nah, Carl, like, I haven't got this information, they're not committed.

Exactly.

So that whole process then means it— yeah, the time you're spending. Yeah. So then I guess, so just from what I'm understanding, sitting down with contract recruiters and stuff, like, is—

is—

should people be really doubling down on pulling jobs? Because I, I feel like, from what I understand, sitting down with people, is the obviously candidate piece is— I don't want to say completely not easy, but like, it's easier. Is it the client piece that you really want to try and double down on?

It's definitely the client piece. And I think it's kind of relationships. And I guess when you get the chat, you know, when you get the chance to deliver on a job, deliver on it, deliver. Yeah. Because I think, you know, my experience now, I've, you know, done some, you know, quite a lot of perm stuff over more recent years. And I think what I've realised is that typically, you know, and this is a generalisation, but Typically hiring managers that are hiring contractors, they're not really that bothered where they get them from. It's kind of like, who can provide—

Is that because they need them?

It's definitely an urgency thing. For me, I say to the guys here all the time on the contract front, it's like, if you get a job, it's can you provide the best candidates at a competitive rate in a very quick timeframe? And if you can cover those boxes, you know, whether they like you or not, they're probably, you know, they're probably going to use you, which is obviously massively different to the, to the perm piece. Yeah.

Interesting. So, okay, so got through that, had a solid sort of end of your first, obviously first year. And then so when did you go to Dubai then?

2014.

Okay. So you had a solid period in Manchester. And what was like the typical route? Was it just contract biller and then did you manage anyone by the time you left or senior consultant? How did that work out?

Yeah, so I progressed through the ranks up to senior and all that type of stuff. And I think what S3 are really good at is, you know, allowing you to do the job that you want before you, before you actually get there, if that makes sense. You know, so some people look at that as a disadvantage, but for me that was kind of like a chance to, to prove myself.

So what did that mean? What did you get the chance to do?

So obviously you move through the ranks in terms of your title, and naturally that comes with pay increases and all that type of stuff. But then the chance to like really run and manage a team without having the title of being a team manager.

So, so they give you those extra responsibilities?

Yeah. So I remember the year that I moved to Dubai, um, we'd come back in, in the January and we were looking to kind of build a new team and they wanted to trust me with that. So we had 4 trainees that had started who said, look, we'll give you them, want you to run at this, go hell for leather. I guess, you know, it was only a month or so later that I had the conversation about moving to Dubai. So, but I still kind of theoretically feel like I managed or mentored that, you know, those 4 people.

Which would obviously help to put you in good stead when you went to Dubai.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Okay. So 2 things then before we talk about your sort of journey moving abroad and stuff like that. First one is, um, the business development piece. So we're just talking about the most common thing I'll get asked about, to ask people about. So during that period, and I guess you can touch on throughout your career, right? So particularly obviously in the contract world, as you said, pulling jobs, clients, that's really important. How did you, how did you get better at that? And any advice around that? Because that, that's definitely the most difficult part that a lot of people find.

Yeah, I think Looking back on it now as a contract recruiter, for me it was just, I was probably very traditional in the sense that for me it was just numbers. Yeah, I was just confident that I could make enough calls to get enough clients on the phone, and once I got them on the phone, I was half decent enough to get something out of that call. So for me it was just work ethic, but I think that's, when we spoke last week.

Yeah, obviously that's definitely changed recently, right?

Oh, 100%. Yeah, you know, the whole, you know, work smart, not hard piece. Obviously still need to work hard.

Yeah.

This, I think it's certainly changed. And even up until really joining Laurence Harvey, you know, I was still always of that kind of mentality. You know, you see things about personal branding and social media and the marketing piece. And I was just kind of like, yeah, I get that. But for me, I could just pick up the phone and, you know, and that was always the, just the kind of way it was for me. But I guess we've had probably more success than I've ever had, really. Yeah, from a business development piece over the last 18 months by changing the approach.

So let's just talk about that now then. Okay, what have you changed? So what— when did you realize mentally, like, hang on a minute, Colin Manchester 2012, 13, or whatever, just smashing the phones is not proven as successful? Like, what— like, do you know what I mean? Because that must have been difficult to accept that?

Yeah, um, I think that I'd come with experience, may have experienced in different cultures. And, you know, going to Dubai, it was massively relationship-driven. So, um, you know, you could, you could be the best recruiter in the world, the best BDR in the world, but if you didn't get out in front of them, um, it was a bit of a struggle. Um, you know, then I went to the US where it was very much more of a search environment, so them, them processes were really, really slow. So I guess I'd had a kind of a bit of a mixed bag when it comes to the type of, you know, roles that I was working, the sectors that I was working in, different types of approaches, different types of how people like you to approach them and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. So I think when I started at Laurence Harvey, for me it was just like, look, I know I can, I know that I can do some, you know, some damage when I get on the phone because that's my, that's BD has always really been my strength. Probably because I'm a contract recruiter by trade. But I guess I was just kind of sitting thinking about what's really going to allow me to get more people on the phone, you know, rather than just calling through switchboards. Because we started here, it was in pretty much a new market for the business, into a brand new office, a new geography. We'd had a few people in London working up here, but you know—

Pretty cold, so it was mapping out the market, switchboards.

Absolutely.

Hi there, my name's John. Get through, actually my name's Carl, sorry about that. Yeah, yeah, I can help, this is what I do. Yeah, that typical stuff.

Yeah, so you know, it was, it was, I guess I'm very methodical in my approach. I need to be able to see, right, okay, who's the target client, who's the hiring manager in that client. Yeah, right, map it all out, map it all out. And then it was just like, right, what's going to allow me to get them on, on the phone? And, um, I think we've got a, we're lucky here, we've got a wicked marketing team and they do a lot of events, so they were kind of leaning on me a little bit saying 'Look, go and see what's out and about there from an event perspective. Is there something that you can speak to these people about?' And I kind of just ran with that idea. I thought, 'It's a different approach. I'll give it a go, see what happens.' And lo and behold, it kind of worked, you know, and there were a lot more clients answering the phone, clients coming to me saying, 'Oh, you know.' So what was the actual experience?

Because that, you must have been like, 'Hey, like, what?' Do you know what I mean? What is it? So literally, so the great thing about that is obviously it never used to stay on the phone, but it was received totally different. She wasn't talking about jobs.

Yeah, it's just the approach, mate. So it's just, you know, it was a, it was a non-recruitment related call, but kind of naturally with anything, I knew that if I could get these people on the phone, I was speaking to them about how we could add value by putting an event on that might not, you know, that might be lacking in the space. And then Naturally, most of the time, you're on the phone with them for 30, 45 minutes talking about who you are, what you do. I'd say 7 out of 10 calls that I were making, I was getting, actually, we're looking for this, can you help? And I was like, yeah, look, well, I wanted to come meet you anyway to speak about the event. Let's just wrap it all up there. And it was like, yeah, cool. And I was just kind of like, oh God, I've been doing this wrong for the last 6 years.

That's mad.

Yeah.

So, okay, just to finalize that, 'cause I think a lot of people may be thinking, Well, I'm not— I'm a recruiter, like, I'm not a fucking event creator. I'm not creative, all these things, right? So like, these types of phone calls, is it— I mean, it's not rocket science. It pretty much involved the typical type of approach, but then you're talking about sort of the event or an event idea that you may have. Are you open to getting involved? This is why you're thinking about starting it, blah blah blah. And then just using that whole conversation to maybe at some point, but I'm assuming you don't go with the intention of giving them a sales pitch of what Lawrence Harvey do. That just sort of can happen quite naturally, you know what I mean? But is it like, how difficult was it? Because some people might be listening, going, that's a bit, that would be a bit weird calling up people and talking about events, you know what I mean?

I don't think it would be personally, but I think, um, it's funny you ask that question because when I sit with our head of marketing and we're talking about, you know, this, and I guess we've created a bit of a community here around this event series that's snowballed into something bigger than I ever thought it would.

Yeah.

And I guess for me that just has come a little bit natural. I guess I'm still a little bit unsure of what the kind of barriers are for other people, but it was very much a case of, look, here's who Laurence Harvey is, here's what I'm doing, here's my role in the business, and here's the reason that I'm calling you. And yeah, it's at that point that it was like, you know, we want to put an event on. We're big in the event space as a recruitment business, but to be honest with you, we don't just want to put something on for the sake of it. Yeah, we actually want to try and give some value, want to add something back. So what do you feel is missing? And then, you know, I'd kind of take all the feedback from that call and roll it into the next. You know, I've just spoke to John Smith at such a body and yeah, he said this, what do you think about that? Yeah, I'd agree. And then that concept of, you know, I guess we've created the Data Leaders of the North community, that, that came off the back of, you know, yeah, there's, there's not a great deal in terms of an intimate roundtable type of event. There's a load of meetups and a load of tech type stuff, but from a leadership perspective, people that head up data and data science functions, you know, I've got to travel to London, it's 2 days out of the office, it's an expense for the train and the hotel. And so we kind of just roll with it and put it on.

No, so I think that anyone listening, one, I think, um, look, if you, if you're, if you're good on the phone, which clearly you will be, if you're good at building relationships, like, like, back yourself and, and do it. You'll learn through the process, which you clearly did. Use what you've, you've done in terms of, yeah, the typical BD that you've you've done. And, um, I mean, what's the worst that can happen, right? Like, do you know what I mean?

I think if I look back over everything, you know, throughout all the different types of recruitment I've done in terms of the different roles, the different sectors, the thing that's allowed the most success has been meeting people.

Meeting people, yeah.

You know, that's, uh, S3, they were big, they were big on that, you know, because obviously you want to try and wrap good contract clients up. So it's, you know, get in front of them. If you're placing with them, go and take them out for a lunch or whatever the case may be. And, you know, like when I started here, it was very much a case of, well, let me come and meet you, we're going to talk about the event. Yeah. And then naturally, you know, one of the biggest challenges they have is talent because it's such a talent-short market. So they start asking you for advice, and before you know it, you're pretty much, you know, um, you know, ingrained in their business somewhat, really.

Yeah, yeah. No, I really like that. Okay, cool. So, uh, the other thing I just wanted to touch on, which I'm always curious about, because I've had a few people obviously worked at Esprit and stuff, and you, and you said there at the beginning around like you, you could see like what you was really exposed to, some like big hitters, right? What were the typical things that you saw in these people that sort of you think enabled them to, looking back now, whatever, like what were some of the common things that you noticed in them that enabled them to absolutely kill it? 'Cause I'm sure it would still work now or have an impact now.

Yeah, I think, you know, back in, back in, you know, the S3 days, I think about all the people that were really big billers. That I was lucky enough to learn from, I think, to be honest with you, it was work ethic.

Really?

It was just work ethic and tenacity, you know, and it was, there's people in there that were running 14, 15 grand a week GP contract books that were still there at 9 o'clock at night.

Really?

You know, just chasing down leads and speccing in CVs and it was just a, I guess they created a bit of culture like that, S3, you know, it was relentless for success.

It's just really high standards.

But yeah, but it just, you know, it was an environment where it was just very successful. And I think that was a learning curve for me when I left S3.

Yeah.

Because, you know, I think you kind of, you come accustomed to a certain way of doing things and you're just like, oh, this is what recruitment is. Yeah. And you leave and you're like, shit, it's not like this anywhere else, you know. So yeah.

So it's just pure relentless work ethic.

Yeah, I mean, look, naturally there's some people that are are much better on the phone than others, and other people make up for that by putting in more numbers and more hours. But I'd say, you know, the work ethic piece was really instilled in everyone. You know, everyone that was successful were in earlier, leaving later, you know, and those were the people that were smashing in a number of deals a month and were, you know, making an absolute ton of money.

Do you think that that's the recipe for success now?

Um, I mean, look, yeah, there's no— for me, there's no denying the fact that, you know, you're never going to get away from that. You know, the harder you work, the more you do, the more you're going to get out. But I think the approach has changed.

Yeah.

And I think society has changed.

Yeah. Um, I guess that's not really flexible working, mate, or work-life balance, mate.

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, look, you know, we're— some of the things that we do now in this business Honestly, I laugh about it now to my boss because I'm just like, in mine in his day, never would that have happened, you know. You know, we might run little incentives to say, right, if we do this at 4 o'clock, we're going to nip downstairs and have a table tennis competition. Yeah, you know, S3, like if you'd have said that middle of the working day, you'd have probably got beaten with a meat roller stick, you know. So I guess it's changed. It's— yeah, but I think, I think the world's changed. I don't know. Nowadays, I don't think, you know, there was— when I was, you know, recruiting contracts, trying to fill contract jobs, you know, staying there till 9, 10 at night sometimes, I'd just be sending CVs and I'd be getting replies from my clients. That, I think that's changed. I don't think, I don't think clients are working to that time. I think everyone's a bit more relaxed about that stuff now.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's interesting. And I think for me, at the end of the day, like, that doesn't mean that, um, work ethic isn't required. And all that, you know what I mean? Like, it's— it obviously is— it does have a bit of a sort of stigma attached to it a bit now, like, oh, you're always working, all that. But I think at the end of the day, like, work ethic is still so important. Like, it's still so important. You can't— you just can't expect the sort of success that you do want without putting in the hard work. No, of course not, you know what I mean? I think that that's obviously the, the challenge with it is because, because we're so well connected now, it's so easy see, oh, Carl's always on holiday and all that, but you don't, you don't see the, the stuff that led to that, you know what I mean? That, that's the thing now where obviously you would have used— exposed these really, um, big hitters and you saw what they were putting in, you know what I mean? Whereas now, I think that's why I, I personally really enjoy like the documentary, like the Man City documentary and stuff like that, because it's so easy to look at just football, for example, Carl football player, center-back for Man City. Oh, he's got it all right and he's getting paid loads of money, blah blah blah. You don't see all of the work that goes behind that, you know what I mean? Um, okay mate, so what I'd love to, um, dive into— so Dubai, what was that like?

Um, I absolutely loved it, really, from a lifestyle perspective. Yeah, I think, uh, in hindsight we probably made a bit of a rash decision leaving. But I think that was connected to the personal, to the professional side of things, if I'm honest with you. You know, there's a load of really good people out in Dubai making an absolute ton of money, but it's very relaxed. I'd say, you know, if you look at all of the big recruitment businesses across the world, you know, their Middle Eastern operations are the ones that are making them the top dollar. You know what I mean? It's just, it's almost like, in my opinion, that people put a business, then an office there to say we've got a presence in the Middle East, you know. So, and typically the outfits there are a bit smaller and stuff. So professionally, I found it a bit of a challenge, especially going because of what you was used to. Yeah, you know, what you're used to, you know. And it was the first time really that I'd been, you know, you're speaking to clients and candidates that, you know, English isn't the first language. I remember, you know, an hilarious story. So I'd come back, I'd come back for the summer once and I was spending a week in the Manchester office, but I was working. Yeah, just working like Dubai hours. And I went in there and I was finalizing putting an Algerian candidate into—

Algerian, mate—

an Algerian candidate into Qatar or something like that, whatever. And, you know, because you're having to speak in broken English and, you know, I'm basically shouting down the phone, and my old director's kind of looking at me with a big frown on his face going mate, that sounds like hard work. And it was just like, you know, it was completely different. So I think professionally it was, it was good, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it and we did really well. But I think it was, you know, we was— most people are there for the lifestyle, you know, whereas if you go to New York, no one goes to New York to have a jolly up, you know, they're there because they're there to graft.

Because how long have you been in Dubai for?

Uh, just over 2 years.

2 years. So how would you— so it— because, um, people thinking about going to Dubai doing recruitment, what should they be thinking about then?

Um, I'd say getting in, getting into the right business.

Yeah.

Um, it's massively important out there. Um, I mean, look, everyone, everyone out there is doing well, you know, and I guess the, the difference for me was I'd gone from working, you know, a northwestern BI market where literally my market was mapped on postcodes to, right, okay, we're S3 Dubai, but we've got the whole of the Middle East, you know? So we were placing candidates into pretty much every country out there. So the UAE, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, Iraq, you know? So it'd gone from, you know, this little thing to this big thing. And I think that was a challenge for me at first because it was kind of like—

Where'd you start?

Where do you start? And I'm a massive believer that, you know, you— more is not always better. Yeah, for sure. I, I quite like the fact that I've got a finite list of clients because you kind of know you either can really double down on it, you can double down on it, and you either, you either make a success of them or you fail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As simple as that. Whereas in Dubai, you're kind of like, oh, you've got— there's so much to go out. Which country do you start in? Why do you start there? So yeah, that was, that was difficult, but But personally, lifestyle-wise, yeah, it was unbelievable.

Yeah, a bit of a jolly out there.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

What is— what obviously— so my dad's Algerian, so like I've been to Algeria loads, so I've got a sort of cool perspective of that type of culture. Well, obviously a lot of people might be listening, like, ah, like, what is it actually like to live there, do you know what I mean, as an English Northern lad. Yeah, do you know what I mean? What's the actual culture like there?

So look, I think, um, people that have never visited or don't know much about Dubai or the Middle East, I think they, they kind of think, uh, you know, they kind of think what they hear and see in the newspapers. You can't drink. Yeah, you can't do this, you can't do that. And honestly, I've never drunk as much in my life as I did when I was living there, um, because that was just the lifestyle, you know. Everyone out there is an expat, you know. I think that really the population of the UAE is something stupid like 80% expat, really. And I'd say a large majority of that is British or European or American. So naturally, you know, if they're catering to so many expats, they've got to take on their culture. So it, you know, it was just— that was the way it was. And I think it's, it's slightly different from a lifestyle perspective to New York because, you know, when you go to Dubai, everyone's an expat, you know. No one's from Dubai. Yeah. So you kind You're not forced to make friends, but you're kind of friends with the people that you work with. Your groups and your circles just grow naturally because it's almost like everyone's really looking for people to kind of knock around with. Whereas when we went to New York, it was, you know, we went there, but everyone already lives there. They've got their own lives. They're not looking to make friends and, you know, stuff like that.

So why did you go to New York?

So I'd left S3 and moved to another business, which was a complete startup. And I loved that experience, you know, literally kind of like with my boss at the time, like finding the offices, buying all the equipment and stuff and building something that was brand new. That part of the business got sold off, so effectively I got made redundant. They shut down the office and I was kind of sat there. I had a few conversations around other opportunities in Dubai. By this time I was at a certain level and naturally, you know, I guess the volume of those opportunities was relatively slim. I was getting a lot of interest from businesses in the UK looking to open in Dubai, like, would you start something for us? Which I was all for, but I kind of just, I don't know, I was hearing an awful lot of really good stories coming out of the US, you know, friends I'd worked with. What year was this? 20— what year was this? 2016.

Okay, that's interesting. I think you're definitely hearing a lot more now, aren't you?

100%, yeah.

So it's a bit early on the sort of bandwagon, you could say.

Yeah, yeah, but I was hearing a load of good stories, people out there making good money, you know, it was starting to, I guess, kind of, you know, build a little bit of momentum. People speaking about it's the best recruitment market in the world, you know, the natural— the size, the size of the country, the amount of volume, the fees are, you know, miles bigger, all that type of stuff. So I kind of think I was just— there wasn't a great deal going on in Dubai, if I'm honest. It kind of felt like it was— felt like it's more of a lifestyle place than it was. And I kind of felt that I was at a part in my career where I'd done really well at S3, I'd left, I took a massive leap of faith by leaving and went into something that I absolutely loved, but you know, that, they kind of sold that, which wasn't ideal for me really, but I was kind of looking around and I thought, right, I'm at a stage in my career where I probably need to be career-focused rather than lifestyle-focused. Yeah, sure, sure. And I kind of, if I'm honest, I kind of felt like I had a bit of unfinished business with the US, having been, you know, turfed out for not having a visa earlier in my life, so I think there was always a bit of like a romance thing with going back.

What did you go there to do?

So I went over there and worked in a— for a business that basically it's not strictly exec search, but it's that model.

So more headhunting?

More headhunting, yeah. Into the life sciences sector, but mainly around kind of supply chain to life sciences. Yeah.

Okay. And then how long did you do that for?

I was there about a year. Okay, just—

and obviously you were saying before, so you— and you went— at this point you obviously had a missus, a wife. Yeah, a wife.

Sorry, I had a wife before I went to Dubai. Oh really? That's another story.

So I had obviously— I had a wife at this point, and you said that, yeah, she actually fell pregnant when— as you went over to— or you found out she was pregnant?

Yeah, so the day we were flying back from Dubai to the UK to kind of come home to get our visas and stuff, it was, uh Yeah, we found out she was pregnant and, you know, hindsight probably should tell us that we probably should have reevaluated, but I think, you know, it's one of them. It was like, you know, what's the worst that can happen? All our stuff was in a shipping container anyway.

So you just thought, you know, let's just go over there, see what happens, go over there, try it.

You know, we never went over there with the intention of we're going to be back in Spain. Yeah, yeah, sure. But I think, yeah, you know, the reality is that we went out there, the whole time we was there she was pregnant. So we never really experienced the New York lifestyle per se. Obviously I was out of the house 12 hours a day. I felt bad. She's on her own, you know, she made a few friends locally, but they worked. So I think she was, you know, spent a lot of time on her own, which I felt a bit guilty about.

How do you deal with that? Because that's tough, you know what I mean? Like you working, going home, you'd have been thinking about work, but then you had to be present with the missus because like that's her quality time with you, you know what I mean?

Yeah. It was difficult, but I think it's one of them things at the time you don't really think about it too, too much. You know, I tried to get involved. It was one of— it was, it was a balancing act really, because naturally, you know, a lot of people that go out there, a lot of the Brits were young and single.

Yeah, yeah.

So young, my age, but they were single. Yeah, yeah, they were living the life. What was you doing, mate?

You weren't living the life.

Yeah, yeah. Let's avoid that question. No, but you know what I mean? It was kind of like I was I had a wife to go home to and she was pregnant and we tried to get her involved, you know, if there was like company nights out. Yeah, she was open to that, but she was obviously, she was pregnant and the further along she got, it got harder and, you know, and stuff like that. So, and then obviously we had the baby out there, so he's got an American passport, which will be useful later in life, I'm sure. But yeah, we had the baby and then again, you know, I had a couple of weeks off paternity leave, I was out of the office, out of the house, you know, 12 hours a day. And she was, you know, stuck with the newborn, our first child, kind of like, you know, a bit bored really. I think the conversation went a little something like, you know, she was like, when the lease runs out on this place, let's think about going home. And I remember just thinking, well, we're paying like $4,000 a month for this place, like, why would we wait another 6 months? If you want to go home, you know, let's do it. So, um, I had to have a pretty, uh, you know, awkward conversation with my boss at the time, um, around like, look, it's just, you know, personally it's not working out for me and the wife. And, uh, and that was that. Yeah, you know, really enjoyed that business, some really cool people in it, to be fair, and they do really well.

So what, um, just, just on that point before we move on, mate, because I think Obviously a lot of people listening, if you've got however many years experience in recruitment, like you're 100% getting absolutely spammed by expats saying go to America, New York, live the New York life, especially if you're single, all that stuff, right? Like obviously you mentioned about the wife, totally get that, that must have been fucking difficult. Clearly it was. What about socially as well? Because I think that's something you've got to really consider, isn't it? Like, so for me, when I moved up to London, I had a really solid friendship network at home. And moving to London, I actually luckily moved up with one, one friend, um, which massively helped. But even I think for me what I found is like what must be strange— I don't know if you can relate to this— is like, I can imagine even more so in New York, but like in London obviously it's so busy, there's so many people, like you're surrounded by so many people every single day, but you can feel fucking lonely. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, it's like the weirdest thing. Yeah, it's like you surround all these people, you go to work you see those people, you work with people, but then like you get home and it's like, this is weird.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So like, how was it socially? Like, was that difficult in terms of like friends and stuff like that?

Uh, it was a little, I think. Not so much for me because I think there was, you know, there was a number of, um, in, you know, we had quite a diverse cultural office really. So there were a lot of people in our office that were over there on their own.

Really?

You know, so that wasn't too bad, I think. Obviously, you know, it's just the way it works over there, you know, people are working late and then they're going having beers and they're coming in early, you know, so it's a different way of life, but I think the social aspects in terms of family, yeah, you know, so different from Dubai because everyone's in the same situation, everyone's an expat, so everyone's kind of looking for friends, if that makes sense, whereas in New York people are kind of, even the mates that you make when they're there, they've already been there 3 years, they've kind of got their own circle of friends outside of that, you know. So yeah, you know, it was difficult in the sense that sometimes you're trying to— you want to make friends.

Yeah.

But you know, you're kind of tacking into other people's, and then obviously you've got the Mrs. O, and it's kind of like— for me it was— yeah.

So what is it like working in New York? Like what— like the actual reality of it? Because like it's so easy to sort of make it look amazing or think, you know what I mean? Like what is it actually like?

So I think for me, New York, New York is what you make of it, you know. And I think if I'd have gone over there being a young single lad, it'd probably be a completely different story. I may even still be there. But I mean, if you want the honest truth, once, once the novelty wears off that you live in New York, you might as well just be here. I think with the greatest respect, it was, you know, I think the thing people ask me all the time, do you prefer Dubai or New York?

Yeah. Yeah.

and every time I'd say Dubai 100% because it's a different lifestyle. It's a different way of, it's a different way of living. You, what you get over there you can't get here in the UK, whereas in New York it's just a really big city, you know. So it's kind of, once the novelty's worn off, you're walking down Fifth Avenue to your office and oh, there's the Rockefeller. Once you're kind of over that after a few weeks, it's kind of like you're just in another city, you know. So it's very similar to the UK in many aspects.

Yeah, sure, that makes sense. Can you make more money there? Like, what were these— what was your experience with the fees and all that? Because obviously you hear all the time now, 30% fees, all that good stuff. Like, what was your experience with that?

Yeah, yes, look, there's no doubt. There's— the country is bigger, there's more— there's more volumes of business, um, you know, the, the roles are higher paid, so the salaries are higher. Yeah, the fees are higher, um, for me when I was there, I was really shocked at how open everyone is to speak to recruiters.

Yeah, that was my next point.

I think, you know, come from a contract background, calling people in Chester, for example, you know, you're just hammering the phone just trying to get someone to listen to you. And over there, you know, even if they're not interested, they'll still give you the time of day to kind of say spiel, which, you know, you don't really get here, if I'm honest, often, you know. Um, so yeah, I think there's— you can, you can definitely make more money there.

Yeah. So the perception of recruiters, which I've heard a lot now, is totally different. People are open to taking a phone call, people willing to listen. It's interesting, mate. And then I guess just, just to wrap all of that up, mate, what— again, if I'm listening right now, I have the opportunity to go to New York What should I be thinking about, mate?

Uh, so again, I'd say 100% the business. Yes, I think naturally, as you'll know, there's been an absolute influx of recruitment, UK-based companies flowing out to the, to the US for a, for a piece of the pie. So, um, I think business and the cultural aspects of that is massively important, you know. Um, you probably don't want to be, you know, if you're, if you're on your own, you don't probably don't want to be going to an all-American, you know, search firm where everyone's got their own families and lives. Yeah, you know, um, that'd be 100% something I'd be considering. Um, and then just little things about like, where do you live? Yeah, like, so when I first went out there, I spent 6 weeks in an Airbnb in Williamsburg, um, which is Brooklyn. So that's, that's kind of like, it's supposed to be like, you know, I guess the, the northern quarter of Manchester, you know, like the hippie, trendy, quirky place. And then we actually moved over to Hoboken, which is across the water, so it's theoretically New Jersey.

Okay.

That was a little bit more family-oriented. Yeah, you get bigger space, more for your money. Yeah.

So, um, where you live is key?

I think where you live is key because naturally, you know, most people, especially if they're single, they want to go out there and they want to live in the heart of it. Absolutely, I would, you know. But the reality is, is that you're probably going to pay at least $1,000 a month to share a an apartment with someone, you know. So, uh, some money is— yeah, it's expensive.

Yeah. Okay, mate. And then came back and then, um, you've ended up at Lawrence Harvey and you've been here for how many months now, did you say?

18 months.

18. So how many times have you switched industry? I feel like you've changed like a sector. I mean, yeah.

So, um, started in— started in tech and BI, um, Moved out to, moved out to Dubai probably about 6 weeks before the oil and gas price crashed. Yeah, to do oil and gas. Um, so we, we kind of spun that around and did more kind of engineering type stuff. So I guess different again, different again. Um, went to America, was, was life sciences, different, and then back into, back into tech. Yeah, so I think, look, mate, for me, and everyone asked me this question all the time, like How have you done that?

How have you adapted? How have you changed?

And I think that the answer for me all the time is, look, recruitment's recruitment, you know. Yeah, you're going to be speaking to slightly different types of people. There's certain, you know, there's different subtle nuances within each market, but the reality is, is that recruitment's a process. So if you can nail that— and that probably, I probably say that because I was just drilled with process when I was taught, you know, from the S3 days. So The process for me remains pretty consistent. I think it's just probably having a certain element of adaptability. You know, if you're speaking to a vice president of a US pharmaceutical company or, you know, you're speaking to, I don't know, a French electrical engineer who works in Qatar. Yeah. Algerian. Yeah. In your case, you know, it's kind of is what it is. You know, you're speaking to different people. You just need to be able to, I guess, adapt to that situation and understand how to get on a level.

Really? Okay. And then, so now how many people do you manage?

So we've got a team of 5 at the minute.

Okay, so a few things, mate, before we get, get to the end. Uh, firstly, how have you done, how have you done billings-wise, mate, in your career?

Billings-wise, yeah, good, mate. So I think I was, I was, I was lucky because, um, so I got S3, my contract book kind of topped out about 8K a week, which, you know, is All right, decent, I guess. Certainly, you know, I wasn't up there with some of the top, top billers, but I guess it was at that point I moved over to Dubai, so I had a— I was pretty lucky that I still had a contract book running in the UK, decent, in tech, and then I could build a new contract book again from scratch, you know. So I think I got to about 6K with that. So, you know, you look at it on paper and it's 14 grand a week contract book, that's pretty good going. But yeah, if I'm being honest, most people don't have the opportunity to do that across two brands and two industries, you know. So would I have ever gotten to £14,000 a week in tech doing what I was doing?

Probably not. Sure. What about more recently then? Like, because are you still billing?

I'm still billing, yeah. So I think we've had a bit of a change in strategy really. So, um, you know, I love the BD element of it. Yeah, um, obviously you're really client-focused, very client-focused. Um, obviously I'm a contract background, so the candidate piece is probably more of a challenge for me.

Would you do a lot of splits?

So we do do splits. I guess that the strategy when I first came in was, look, I'll go and win as much work as we need, we can take, and I'll dish that out to the team, and the business is making money, I'm making money, they're making money, everyone's happy. I guess that worked to an extent, but I guess we're at a point now where we've, if I'm honest, we've probably got too much work to deliver on, so I've been much more hands-on, active, back in that space again. So we had a tough start to the year, you know. I think we had started— we started Lawrence Harvey last summer. So the first, you know, again, we didn't do a deal. So a brand new market, brand new geography, I didn't do a deal till month 4 or 5, you know. So even though I have any experience you've got, you know, it still takes time. I think that's one thing I always say with people is hold your nerve, you know. I think people are very quick quick to, oh, there is no market here, and move on. The reality is there is a market, you just need to establish yourself a little bit in it. So, um, so I guess the first 6 months were very much around building a bit of a reputation for ourselves. Naturally, we've started to increase headcounts over time. That's, you know, this year has been, uh, was slow at the start. Q3, we had a record, uh, record quarter, um, billings-wise. This year has been very good, so couple of big kind of big deals, big retained deals come off for me, like trying to get involved in some retained type projects.

So, um, how have you found that?

Interesting.

Um, how have you, how have you positioned that? Like, why do you know what I mean? Because like that's definitely going to be more people are going to be wanting to do more of that.

So I think, um, it's down, it's down to the, the market that you work a lot of the time. But you know, I guess what we've got in Manchester in terms of data, you know, so we typically place data scientists, data engineers, data architects.

Okay.

There's 3, or then some kind of more senior heads of type roles. And I guess we've been quite selective in the clients that we want to go and work with.

Okay.

Because to be honest with you, there's more, there's more demand than there is supply.

Yeah.

So we, I didn't want to spread ourselves too thin across too many clients.

Some really solid relationships.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, if you've got a decent data scientist you're going to be able to place them?

Oh, to be honest, man, the market is so buoyant here at the moment for that. You know, it's— we get a good candidate, we can put them into 3 or 4 clients, we'll get 3 or 4 interviews, we'll probably get 3 or 4 offers, you know. So it's, it's kind of like, it's almost counterintuitive to have more clients, you know. So we've been trying to get in with businesses that are on, I guess, the start of a trajectory in terms of building a data team from scratch. So with that, we've had a few good good wins with that and we just kind of position it as, look, you know, we're a specialist data, data science recruitment business. That's all we focus on here on the ground in Manchester and we know our stuff and we know the market, you know, so, and that's kind of got us most of the way, if I'm being honest. And yeah, you know, there's a few businesses that we're working with now where they're building teams from scratch and they pay us like a monthly retainer.

And is that, is that because you said, look, We know, we understand the challenges that come with building a team. And obviously the problem that we can solve is that you can have a dedicated, dedicated resource that's going to build this team, understand your culture, blah, blah, blah. And then I guess it's something— obviously there's still expectations you've got to hit, which are challenging, but that means that that person that's giving you X retainer per month means that, oh, that team's— that's sorted, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

That's interesting.

Yeah. I mean, this one example, you know, they're a relatively new business, a tech startup, if you will. You know, they're hiring across the board. They've got their own internal recruitment team, as you'd expect, but they're hiring for everything across the whole business, you know, so they're just—

they've kind of— It's all talent-focused.

Yeah, exactly. And especially when it's such a candidate-driven market and it's, you know, most of what we do is go and headhunt candidates because no one's really actively looking. They don't need to be looking because they're getting contacted 10, 15 times a day by recruiters, I'm sure. So For us, it was just a case of, look, you got to trust us with this, and you get more by operating on a retained project type model.

Get more dedicated resources.

More dedicated, you can get first dibs on all candidates, because on a contingent model, yeah, don't worry, I'd send the candidate to you, but I'm also sending them to 2 or 3 other clients and stuff like that.

Yeah, okay, interesting. 2 things, mate, that I'm thinking of. Thinking about, which I think people want to know more about. You sound like a business development machine, mate.

I might be stretching it, mate.

No, but all I mean by that is like you sort of say it off the cuff, like 6 months didn't make a deal, really, I'll get in the work, blah blah blah, do you know what I mean? So like now you're managing people, stuff like that. You've mentioned process, you mentioned about your experience and obviously having the events, it's really helped. But I guess just to sort of give like, yeah, I guess just finalize some key pointers on that. Like the business development piece. Like what sort of processes have you helped sort of implement in your team and stuff like that that you think have brought them more success, which has worked for you? Do you know what I mean? What does some of these processes look like? Just because I think, mate, like clearly you know how to do it and you've done it quite well, but it's been a journey with it. Like, do you know what I mean? Anything just to wrap that up, 'cause it seems like you've just done really well with that, and I think that's what a lot of people struggle.

Yeah, so I think, you know, we've had a focus on these events 'cause they've been a success, and even now when I'm speaking to clients about them, I'm quite honest in the fact that it's probably snowballed into something bigger than I ever thought it would be. So like, you know, we have people that are based in the team that focus on a specific geography, for example. So I've said, look, go and have the same conversation just like replicate that whole, that whole event piece because naturally, you know, it obviously works. Yeah. Clients are interested in speaking to you about it because it's slightly different. And I think that's, if there's anything that I'd say nowadays, it's, I say to the guys all the time and it's a bit cheesy, but you know, about kind of trying to be a celebrity in your market.

Yeah.

Not like, you know, David Beckham celebrity type of status, but you know, just be someone that people No, because I think that for me, that's— I've had so many referrals and introductions.

That was gonna be my next thing. What's the actual benefit? Why should recruiters be aiming for that?

Yeah, so I think, you know, there's so many referrals, introductions. I mean, we held our 4th event of what's become a series. We're holding our 5th one at the end of the month up in Edinburgh. But I was looking around the room and we held it last week, and I think as recruiters, people often, you know, We're salespeople, right? So there's, there's an element of, you know, you want to get something back from every single thing in terms of a tangible result.

Yeah.

And I think what I've realized is that, you know, I've sat around the room and I was looking, there was, there was 18 people around that room and there was probably only 4 or 5 of them that are actually our clients. Really? You know, but all the rest of them, I'd like to think, you know, if we went to, to them or someone independent went to them and said, who, who's a go-to data recruiter in Manchester? I'd like to think they'd probably say us because of that. So it's not always about getting the tangible result there and then. I'm pretty confident that further down the line there'll be things that open up for us.

I think, yeah, and if you're serious about the events, you can't just have that mindset because it will mean that some of the decisions— you'll be more prone to making decisions that mean the event's not as great. But has it made you more money? Absolutely, yeah.

I mean, that, to be honest with you, that, that's been our, our kind of sole singular strategy to to put in, to put in deals around the board, man.

I love that, just because there'll be so many, there'll be so many people, yeah, that make the assumption that now events have been done, too many of them, do you know what I mean? So I just, I think, I think that's wicked, mate, that that's happened. And so many people make the assumption that you can't make money out of it because everyone's done it. Um, the other thing I just wanted to, I'd love to get your, um, thoughts on that. Again, clearly you've, um, shown it throughout your career. You said again, you said about give it enough time in terms of the market and stuff like that. I think you said earlier on around like just sort of who you are and the way you're made, but I'm assuming now you're having to cultivate more resilience in your people and tell them to be patient and these sorts of things.

Yeah.

Like, how— what's your journey been like with resilience and how have you got better at cultivating that in yourself but also your team?

I think, I think for me that's just come naturally. That's more of a characteristic of me as a person. But yeah, look, I think that's, that's a challenge for a lot of recruiters. And especially, I think what, what is a challenge is, you know, naturally we've got people in our office, for example, that they're all at different levels. So, you know, you've got someone sat there that might have been in the business 3 or 4 months. They're very talented, they're doing all the right things, they're not seeing results. And they look across the room and someone's maybe working in a slightly different market who's getting a lot of results, especially in quite a small environment.

It's quite— it's tough to see that.

It's funny because when I was thinking about this the other day, it was kind of like, you know, you, you were, you were kind of told and trained at S3 that market's irrelevant, the market doesn't matter, you know, if it's failing, it's because of you. And I think, you know, look, there's a certain element of that. But I think for me, it's like I said before, like, you've got to hold your nerve with stuff. But in terms of resilience, I don't Even when I joined Lawrence Harvey, you know, I'm 6 months in, we'd only done a couple of placements in data. I'm sat there, you know, I'm speaking to my boss and trying to justify what we're doing. And even then I'm kind of saying to him, yeah, I'm saying to him, I'll be honest, man, I'm kind of on the fence here. And he was saying like, look, just keep doing what you're doing. You know, if you feel that there's a market there, there's a market there.

You just got to go and figure it out. Is there anything in your day that you do that think helps with that or not. I don't know, is there anything that you do on a daily basis that, besides obviously dressing like going to Blackpool, which can help, but like, is there anything that you— I don't know, just out of interest, is there anything that—

what, with resilience?

Yeah, just like, is there anything that you— has it become like a bit of a daily practice that you do or anything, or not really?

I don't think it's a conscious thing, mate.

Really? Fairly. Um, I just thought that that might be interesting if you had any— yeah, anything that you do, a ritual. Yeah.

No, I don't. Personally, for me, I don't think it's a conscious thing. I think it's— I think it's become a conscious thing for me from a management perspective to try and encourage others. Yeah, you know, and I think that, to be honest with you, one of my biggest flaws is that that's just not my personality, you know. So that's something that I've had to work on extremely hard over the years. You know, if someone makes a good call you know, me 5 years ago, I'm like, yeah, that's your fucking job, right? You know what I mean? And I think I, I probably learned how to manage people in completely the wrong way through trial and error by giving the opportunity at S3 to manage people, because it was kind of like, you know, I was, I was doing really well. I was, I was getting myself into that crowd of top billers within the office, and it was kind of like, you know, if people kind of said, oh, why do we do this? And it was 'Cause I just told you to, like, you know that? 'Cause it works obviously. Whereas obviously now it's kind of just relaying the benefits to them and encouraging of that. Yeah, you know, that call, that call was wicked, but this in specific, this what you said there, make sure you do that again and again and again.

So what have you just had to naturally go on that journey or have you had some help with that or?

100% had help with that. So obviously we do like management courses that I've been on and stuff and, you know, I'd say that that's certainly not a kind of natural strength of mine. So, but I've had to work on it, work on trying to have that at the front of my mind. You know, I think it's difficult sometimes because I'm, you know, I'm still there hands on, hands on, you know, headphone on, speaking to clients and stuff. So it is difficult to kind of be understanding everything that's going on around us.

But how do you structure your day to enable that you can spin all these plates and keep on top of them?

So obviously we do kind of, you know, daily plans. I think it's about understanding that the team know what they're doing. But for us, we like to try and give them as much autonomy as possible. You know, we kind of say, look, we're here for as much guidance and support as you need, you know, but make sure if you need it, you ask us, you know, don't just sit there kind of failing.

Have you had to get better at— a lot of people have said before in the management piece where like they had to make it where like, if I'm in your team right now, that I can just come up to you and disrupt your day at any point, even though it's probably something I could work out myself. Like, we had to get— I don't know if you've done anything where it's like between 12 and 1, you can ask me and I'll give you my full attention unless it's like really important. You know what I mean?

I think that depends on the environment you're in and where you're at, where you're up to as a business at that level. 'Cause I think naturally we've got, you know, quite a few people that are, are still very inexperienced. So for me at this point, it's the case of, look, I'd rather you come and ask me, correct. You know, if you need something correcting, I can do it now as opposed to you spending 2 hours doing something in the wrong direction.

Yeah, fair enough.

But obviously prior where I've managed teams of experienced people, you know, yeah, there's been times like, look, unless it's business critical, I'm involved in something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I guess to the point where often, you know, a look could kill, you know, you kind of get a '¿Qué hay, loco?' You know, straight away, like, Not now. Yeah, I think I've, I've gotten more relaxed and, uh, you know, the, the more experience I've got, I think I've just probably chilled out an awful lot as well.

So as we finish, mate, I think you, you, through your experiences and the different types of things that you've seen in your career, like, what, what do you think recruiters now have to do to, to stay relevant? Obviously you mentioned about being a celebrity in your market and stuff, but like, how do you see this planning out, you know? I mean, how do you see your, you and your guys staying relevant in your market over the next sort of 5 to 10 years?

So I think, I think recruitment, the cycles, right? I think that's always going to happen. But I think, you know, being able to build a bit of a personal brand.

Yeah.

Network relationships. I think for me it's just about, I say to the guys all the time, like, look, we're sitting down this afternoon to go through like a client strategy piece.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm probably guilty of being too involved in that type of strategic stuff. I quite like that, right? Who we're going after, why we're going after, how we're going to do it, how we're going to engage them, how we're going to be different.

Yeah.

But I think that's, for me, that's what's worked. So I guess that's, that's where, you know, I try to pass my experience on. But I think, you know, to answer your question, it's about how do you, how do you stand out from the crowd? Because there's because there's so much noise, you know, especially in tech, mate.

Oh my God.

Yeah, I mean, every tech recruiter now is, you know, they've, they've added data on or something else they do, and, and naturally, why wouldn't you? There's a massive market for it. But, um, you know, so for me it's around, well, how do we keep getting that message out that this is, this is just what we do? Yeah, we're really specialist at it. And I think obviously the events have helped position us as, I guess, that authority figure to a certain extent. But look, you know, there's so much more stuff that we can be doing, hence why we spoke in the first place, right?

So that's fair enough, mate. Okay, cool. Um, something that I've always been asking people recently, just because I've got a lot of messages about it recently, and then I'll, I'll ask you the final question, mate. What, um, counter offers— what's been your experience in the last 12 or so months? Has there been more of those? Have you experiencing more of those as a team? Because I've got loads of messages about it recently. Everyone I've asked, they've said, you know what, they'd definitely be more prevalent. Yeah. What's— have you had any experiences that you've sort of noticed or picked up on that there's been more? Or—

I think, I think there, there has. Yeah, thinking about it, there probably has been a little bit more. Um, but again, I think for, for me, that just goes down to being very meticulous about the process. So we, we address address that, like, day dot, you know, when we're speaking. So, all right, you've got an interview booked in. Okay, all right, look, if this goes well, what do you reckon the chances are getting a counter offer? Okay, well, would that need to look like something specific for you to consider it, you know? So we, we try and address that very early. But I'd say most of the deals we've done, naturally you do get a counter. I think it, I think it depends on the market. Obviously our sister brand Harper Harrison, they work in the real estate and property space, you know, like QS and commercial type stuff. It seems to be very prevalent.

Yeah, I've said this a few times now, it's like, yeah, but candidate, 80% of people, they, yeah, yeah, I mean, you've got all that spiel, you know, I think. But like, but a lot of people said it's like you need to really like really address that early on, first conversation. Like, have you spoken to your— have you spoken internally? What could they do to— is there anything they could do to make you stay? Blah blah blah. Because sometimes you can't do anything about it. But I guess it's a matter of you being able to look in the mirror and go, was I meticulous? Is that— did I ask the right questions or not?

Yeah.

Is that your advice then, in terms of—

I mean, that's my advice, mate. You know, you can say everything that you need to say and you've been trained to say when you get to that point, if you're trying to battle a counteroffer at that, you know, at the 12th hour. But I think, you know, if you've tried to mitigate as much risk as you can prior to that happening, then it's less likely to happen. Yeah. But yeah, I think for us that's one of the reasons why we try to work with certain types of clients that probably got a bit more of a cooler, compelling story. They're doing cool stuff, you know. So it's kind of like, look, man, you're working at Company X, Company A are doing this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think as well, when you've got that type of sort of retained relationship or you've got a better relationship with a client, that's something you should be communicating to them, that look, yeah, counter offers are becoming more prevalent at the moment. This isn't just down to me to prevent that or make sure that they understand. Yeah, do you know what I mean? I think that's also down to the sort of communication in relation with the client to say, look, how can we work together to ensure that we're giving the most sort of competitive or the most, um, appetizing offer for, for these people?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's, you know, when you get into those types of relationships where, you know, people are paying you for a service before you've even delivered that service, you do, you know, as cheesy as it sounds, you do almost become like an extension of that business. They take you they take your advice seriously, you know. So we've had instances where, you know, feedback has been slower than we need it to be, and, you know, I've been able to go in there and say, look, you, you already paid us for this. Yeah. So I'm only trying to help you, but here's what you need to do to be able to, you know, attract better talent. Because if you're going to take X amount of time to come back on feedback on the CVs or the interviews, the reality is, is you've got competition in the market that wrapping 3-stage interviews up inside a week with an offer.

And this is the experience that you're giving the candidates. That's why it's not beneficial.

Exactly.

Nice, mate. So, um, what are you excited about, mate, before we finish? What's going on in, uh, it's clearly, uh, an event organizer.

Yeah, so we've obviously, from a business perspective, we've got, um, another event up in Edinburgh, which one of my teams actually kind of run and sorted. So that's been pretty cool to see. Was up in Edinburgh earlier in the week, kind of putting the—

what's it like up there? I've heard it's really like— I haven't actually been.

You've not been? Yeah, it's quality.

Yeah, is it?

Yeah, it's really good. Really nice. Yeah. Um, so she got you—

when you're going to Blackpool?

When we're going to Blackpool? Uh, so the 6th of December.

Buzzing.

Yeah.

So what else? And so like, obviously, yeah, I'm assuming what you guys hiring or what?

Yeah, hiring. Yeah, at the minute. So I mean, we, we're on now what, our fourth— this is our fourth office in 12 months. So, you know, we work. Yeah. So but we've moved around. So it was in Spinningfields, didn't have room for us there to move. So we went to St. Peter's Square and twice in there and then to here.

So a lot of work in the WeWork. The novelty wears off, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does. But I think the office space is nice.

Yeah, it's decent here.

It's certainly an element of attraction to especially more junior people that are coming in. You know, when you're telling them that you get your morning coffee and your beer's free, you know, it's probably adds an extra 5 grand onto the salary, right? At least that's how I spin it. So yeah.

Nice, mate. Well, look, question I always ask people to finish this off, mate, is if you could communicate to every recruiter out there, they'd listen to your advice, they'd take it on, it could be a phrase, sentence, What springs to mind, mate, if you could, if Karl could get into the minds of all the recruiters out there, mate?

I think that's probably changed over time, but if there's one thing that I would say now to any recruiter that's listening is think about how you're trying to stand out and be different.

Be a celebrity. Be the David Beckham of your market.

Yeah, that's going to come back to bite me though, isn't it?

Karl, it's been a pleasure, mate.

Thank you. No problem, mate.