Lauren Langdell - The power of D&I, creating communities, and persevering through adversity

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm really excited to be joined by Lauren Langdell, who is currently the director of North America at Trust In Soda, who are part of the Trenovo Group. Lauren entered the recruitment industry in 2014 straight out of university. Since then, she's progressed all the way from trainee to now director level, where she's responsible for leading a team and the growth of the American brand in Trust In Soda. Along the way, Lauren has founded Women in DevOps, which has grown to a worldwide offline and online community of over 8,000 DevOps engineers across the world. The community has become an industry-recognized nonprofit devoted to empowering diversity inclusion within the technology space. Lauren, thanks for joining me on the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Amazing. So where I always like to start, is, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

Probably one you haven't heard before, but integrity.

Okay.

And just having a huge amount of integrity, because I think in today's landscape it's so saturated that reputation is one of the most important things that you can have. And when clients and candidates genuinely trust in you and have faith in your ability to scale teams for them or to negotiate, um, packages, you know, especially complicated ones, I think that's when your reputation, your networking has like a dynamic change and does the work for you.

Yeah, I love that. Did you have integrity from the beginning of your recruitment career, or did you learn that that's something that's actually you, you have to have if you want long-term success?

I've always held myself accountable to be like a very like honest person and I think, I believe I have. I think what changed for me is probably in the last like 3 or 4 years is that I've learned that people want to work with me for Trust and Soda of course and the brilliant brand we have but also for me and kind of what that represents when It's a huge responsibility if you think you're working with a startup, for example, and they're entrusting you to talk about their baby or their next engineering project with someone who might not have heard of them before, or if they have heard of them before, not know what they're doing from a technical perspective. But that's actually a huge responsibility to get that right. And so, I think that's something I've learned around you know, just being myself and actually being authentic, people recognize and can see. And me trying to be like overly salesy or like really trying to manipulate the sales process, that just was just so unnatural for me and it just didn't work. And I know that works for some people, but, but yeah, not for me. So I'd say in the last, yeah, 3, 4 years, much better. But, um, yeah, something I've learned to be.

I like it, I like it.

So what, what I'm—

so, so just for everyone listening for context. So we're going to really dig into your journey in taking your recruitment career to America for sure, because I do feel like that, that a lot of recruiters do aspire to do that, or at least open to it. Um, so we're going to talk about that, but let— where I always like to just start is like, what was Lauren's first year in recruitment like? What were the early days like? What was that first year like for you straight out of university?

Oh my gosh, yeah, it was— it seems like so long ago now, which is, um, It's quite embarrassing. Yeah, my first year, so I started, I took a recruitment job in my university town. I went to university in Cheltenham and I just, I loved it. I absolutely loved being in the Cotswolds, doing Folk Revolutions every Friday, decided to go home, I wasn't quite ready to move to London. So I worked for ITR Partners. It was fun, it was good. I did well, they are a good group of lads. I kind of like learned the traditional recruitment methods, you know, like your lead sheets and everything like that. That. But yeah, I was with them for about 18 months and then wanted to relocate to London and try something new.

Okay, amazing. So let's just talk about this journey that you've been on then with Trust in Soda. So firstly, obviously you've had Ash on the podcast in the past and Louis as well. So when you joined, what did the business look like? Firstly, just to paint the picture for us. So when you joined, because I feel like over the last few years now, Trenova has really built a great brand, right, with the multiple brands that they have. So I guess, what did the business look like when you joined?

Yeah, completely different business, to be honest with you. I think I was employee number 6 or 7.

Wow.

There's maybe like 5 or 6 of us in a very small office in Holborn. We shared an office with Broadgate Search at the time. I think maybe they had like 6 or 7 as well. So yeah, very small in its maturity, but I could tell back then, and the reason why I joined was that it was really cool, like the branding was insane, the message. We already had like an insane client base, like working with like Shazam and people like that, um, from like really early doors. Um, but yeah, it was a lot of fun, and obviously that fun has continued, but, um, Yeah, it's obviously very, very different now, and it's been an interesting journey having been with Trust and Soda 5 years this May, being like employee number 6, to then like launching like a whole new office in a different continent, um, and looking back and being on calls with like 50, 60 people.

Yeah, that's, that's crazy, right? Because you, you, you'll hear recruitment businesses saying this is where we're going and stuff like that, but to actually go on that journey, so I guess What I want to know from you then is, like, firstly, I'm sure a lot of recruiters listening to this want to aspire to get to the position that you are, if that's director or if that's to lead a team or even to take their career to America. So I guess where I wanted to start was like, why do you think Lauren Langdale was able to get the opportunities that you've had? So let's just start with like, why was you the person that made sure that when they thought, okay, well, we're thinking about going to America, let's speak to Lauren about that. Like, what did you do to make sure that you were the person that got these opportunities?

For full transparency, it wasn't actually me that put my hand up to go to America. It hadn't necessarily crossed my mind about relocating to the States. I always knew, though, that I wanted to get to the top of my game, if that makes sense. And I— yeah, there is no ceiling in Chernobyl, which is quite a cool concept. Um, the reason I think that I landed the opportunity I did, and I'm forever grateful for, probably is that like integrity and authentic piece. Um, culture is really important to us and me. And I think Ashi might have touched on this actually when he spoke with you in his podcast around getting that culture right, in a culture that is, is great but scalable, and, and being able to replicate that in, in America was really important, um, to the leadership team and something that I guess they felt they had confidence you could embody. Yeah, yeah, I built teams previously, demonstrated the billing side, um, demonstrated building a team of, you know, very competent builders as well whilst maintaining culture. So I think that was kind of the motivation behind that decision.

Okay, and then so we've spoken about culture there. I'm always interested to hear this, like, so in your opinion, what do you think the sort of 3 non-negotiables of the Trenovo Group culture that you think has been the sort of recipe of success or cultivated the culture that you're proud to be part of?

Yeah, definitely, um, So the thing is about Chernovo is that everyone— I want to make sure I communicate this in the right way and it's not Spanish.

It's okay.

You know, like the utmost passion for what you do and about carving out like a hyper-performance environment where everyone has access to that performance and where everyone feels valued no matter what that performance looks like. On top of everything that we do around, like, well-being and diversity and inclusion, which I don't necessarily see as, like, industry standard.

Yeah.

We invest a lot of time into making sure, you know, everyone's happiness is heard and they're involved. And yeah, it's just a good place to be where if you want something, we can make it happen. I always tell the story where myself and Hayley had actually gone to Portugal for the weekend, and we decided that being in the office at 8:30 AM after an 11:00 PM flight back from Lisbon wasn't a great idea. So, she wrote a presentation on the plane about why we should have flexi-time. I wrote the presentation on the plane of why we should have flexi-time, the benefits of it, and we walked into work on a Monday, and we're like, "Hi, Ash, Dave, can we have some time to present this presentation?" And they said, Yeah, you can have a 1-month trial, and if flexitime works and you can prove that it's only going to improve everyone's work-life balance and performance is going to go up, then we can keep it. If one person's late on their flexitime, the deal's scrapped. And it was great. We did it. We had a great month. We had a flexitime policy for a few years before introducing remote working. So I've not really been in many environments where that sort of proactive, like, attitude and put your hand up and have an idea and make it happen kind of works. I don't know if that answers your question.

No, no, no, it does. I think that, I think we, yes, like, I really like this sort of high performance piece and having access to that and encouraging that. And yeah, like, basically what we're talking about there is that, yeah, this culture has really high standards and people do want to be the best. And wherever you are on that journey, we're going to support you. But I think what you're sharing there, which I love, is that, yeah, I mean, how— I mean, with the clients you work with, right? How many clients say that this is what they stand for, but how many people actually live by that, right? So when you do have an idea like that, how many people go, yeah, okay, great, Lauren, even though one of our values is innovative, like, no, we don't want to hear about that. You know what I mean? So I think that's a really cool story. So just so I think what I'm really keen to sort of dig into with you is like this, this journey that you've been on in taking your career to America, because as you shared with us before we started this, you actually moved over there. Yeah, a couple of days before lockdown and everything, right? So March last year. So, so you shared about the, the people around you felt really confident Lauren could bring over, is someone that could really live and breathe this sort of Trust and Soda brand and culture over to the States. So can we just talk a bit about the sort of period where you spent in the UK building out that market. So like, where did you start? Because there will be people listening to this that may be thinking about there's opportunities in America or whatever, but like, where did you start to build out this market?

Yeah, no, of course. So we actually started 6 months before we relocated for many reasons, but I guess the main two ones were, A, to mitigate risk. Right? And, and B, or 2, sorry, um, was to make sure that we had the confidence from the day we landed. So before we even set foot on a plane, we did 6 months working West Coast hours, which were not fun, but you have to do it, right? I was working to kind of 2, 3, 4 AM in the morning, um, And then we did several business trips just to have face time with those clients. And we had a Women in DevOps event. We hosted it at Google over here in LA to start building our brand name so that when we did land, we weren't building something from scratch and hemorrhaging money and time and resources. It was a good idea. It was hard. Don't get me wrong, but we just learned so much in those 6 months around kind of what we wanted our market to look like, who our core clients were going to be, finding some core partnerships, and just little things like just really understanding the local culture. One of the biggest shocks for me, I think, was just understanding the cultural differences between a city like London and Los Angeles, and when thinking about jobs and career paths and packages and how important medical insurance is and 401(k) and, you know, salary bandings and laws and compliance and risk is an absolute minefield out here. But it meant that when we were going on client meetings, we weren't clueless because we'd already been doing this for 6 months.

Got that. So, so basically you really wanted to make sure that you had a platform when you actually landed Yes. So what I want to know, and I know people listen to this will want to know, is like, so you mentioned there around sort of understanding who your core clients are and stuff like that. So I guess what I'm just interested to know is like, and this may seem like just normal or basic to you, but this is the stuff that people like really want to know because they can apply it, right? So you're going to focus on the— so why did you pick LA? Why did you pick that state?

We picked California because, well, A, California is the third biggest economy on its own, um, globally, and it is one of the biggest tech hubs in the world. And Trust and Soldiers, our mark— our core markets is digital and technology. Um, San Francisco, obviously Silicon Valley, it's so expensive to be there. Los Angeles has an incredibly strong reputation when it comes to the tech space and it's growing incredibly quickly, calling it like Silicon Beach now, but strategically located in between San Francisco, great tech hub, and then also San Diego, which is great for pharmaceutical, medtech. And we wanted, when thinking about our grand plan and our global strategy and other locations, like East Coast is very much on our radar, like that will be the next step for us, just starting to kind of plot out those global points. Um, plus, you know, the sunshine and surfing before work does help any business case.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, okay, got that. So thinking about the bigger picture, I guess. So, so identified that, and then I guess, like, how did you go about then mapping out the actual businesses you're going to go after? Like, did you go to the existing clients, relationships you had, and then started with by finding out, okay, well, what of our existing clients have functions in America? Let's start there. Like, how did you start market mapping and where did you go about that?

Yeah, at first it seemed like a really huge task, but actually when you break it down and you create a plan and a strategy, it's not too dissimilar to what we were doing back in the UK. So the first port of call was to, of course, look at the existing clients we had in our European business and leverage relationships. Of those. The second thing we did was really utilize our Women in DevOps platform. So, by setting up an event, it was in November 2019, and we didn't move till March 2020, so, a good few months before we relocated, that gives us the opportunity to speak to founders, CTOs, engineering directors, invite them, probe their brains. It was the first event of its type in Los Angeles. So, it was an incredible opportunity for us just to have honest conversations about diversity and inclusion within tech in the immediate, like, we met them in California. Not only did we then get to build up market knowledge, we then got to speak to candidates and potential clients about non-recruitment topics, which in my experience is kind of when you can build the most rapport sometimes and really kind of get under the skin of what they're looking to achieve without it being too much of a sales call. And then, Third thing was we invested in job boards, um, local job boards. We use like a lot of social media to resource our candidates anyway, so just made sure we were connected with local groups, um, and just kind of wanted to build our, our network, um, of both very strong candidates and clients aligned with our markets in our sweet spot, which is like Series A to Series D startups.

Mhm, okay, got it. So that, that's really helpful. So I'm definitely keen to dig into the women in DevOps because the fact that that's like one of your main things that really helped you get started here is amazing. So the first thing I just wanted to ask you and just dig a bit deeper on was obviously it sounds really easy and simple to go, yeah, we're going to speak to our existing clients about America, but like, how does that actual conversation go for you to get some traction? You know what I mean? Is it as simple as, hey, such and such a person I have a relationship with, I wanted to let you know that we're actually expanding into America. It's actually a really big part of our business plan, and I wanted to just speak to you about who does— who's responsible for hiring over there, or who should I speak to over there if we're heading that way? I don't know, like, how did that conversation actually go, and where did you find you actually get the most traction on that?

Yeah, definitely. I guess it also loops back to that integrity piece as well. Like, it wasn't a difficult conversation for us to have because we have such a strong relationship with our clients, and actually It was, this is really exciting off the back of our success with, you know, folks like yourself and the rest of our kind of journey in Europe. We're actually launching in the US. We'd love to also support more teams out there and replicate the good work we've done here. Can you introduce me? Could we have a meeting to discuss the USA strategy and how Cook Trust and Soda can can, you know, scale those teams across the Atlantic. And given the sort of relationships we had, you know, that was fantastic and we managed to kind of leverage off our existing client pool. Not everyone has offices in the US, right?

Yeah, of course.

It wasn't a simple task.

So obviously, yeah, it goes without saying, like, this is the whole point of having integrity, doing the right thing, delivering, Like if you do that over a long sustained period of time, you build relationships. When there is then a global expansion opportunity, you can then lean on those people that will give you the time, will hopefully help because you've delivered. Right. But I guess I'm just interested because it makes sense to do that, but doesn't necessarily mean it works. Do you get what I mean? So I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. So, okay, so let's talk about women in DevOps then, with that being sort of the number 2 thing that really helped. So, look, so you started that in what year?

It was April 2017. Okay, 4 years old.

Why did you start it?

I started it because I wanted a way to— 2 reasons. The first reason is the genuine passion for diversity, equity, and inclusion within the tech space, within the market that I was hiring for. And I would always attend a meetups for 3 reasons: A, to learn and to be able to have tangible conversation with hiring managers and genuine screening calls and being able to really kind of pick engineers' brains apart to separate myself from the competition. The second reason is to meet clients, right? And the third reason is to meet candidates. But I felt like I was the majority of the time the only kind of woman in the room, and I didn't really understand why because I was placing a lot of female engineers and non-binary engineers and transgender, etc., members of the LGBTQ+ community. The other reason is I built a lot of my business plans and teams off the back of innovation. It's obviously a core part of the Trainavia Group and Trust and Service values, but I wanted a way of connecting and building a candidate pool that wasn't off job boards or LinkedIn. To create like those passive relationships and also to give me like tangibility when reaching out to candidates from a diverse background that I really genuinely cared and understood what those conversations looked like, because when hiring a white male man, everything from that headhunt conversation through to the interview, through to the negotiation process, through to the close is very different sorts of conversations that I would have with a working mum, for example. And I wanted to make sure that I had credibility when having those conversations and that I would continuously be learning. I felt like I couldn't lean on the community enough to learn, so I found my own one, which was Women in DevOps, in 2017.

Yeah, no, I love that. So there's a couple of things here that I'd really love you to share. So one, is like, what was the first step that you took? So how many— I'm sure you've had it in your time, right? How many recruiters, colleagues, peers have gone, Lauren, I've got this great idea, and then nothing happens, right? And this would have happened with a lot of stuff like this, the events and stuff like that. And I think, yeah, so what was the— like, what was it? So from idea, you had that idea, like, there's no one here that I can relate to, I want to have more credibility, this is something I really care about. Like, what was the first step that you took to actually make that a reality?

The first step that I took was I secured budget from my directors to run the first event. So I secured budget, I then started a Meetup page, decided on what I wanted the purpose of the Meetup to look like, and then just start inviting people. Um, I'm a big believer in if you say you're gonna do something do it.

And when you— again, I know it seems like this is like really bad, like you literally call people and go, hey, this is what I'm starting. Yeah, cool.

Yeah, I'd literally call or email, reach out on LinkedIn. I did a lot of work on Twitter at the time. I still do use Twitter a lot and just, you know, asking big questions like, hey, how important is diversity to your engineering team this year. If it's not important, well, this is why it should be. And I feel like this could be a really good platform for you to learn network on. And if it is important, you should be here to meet, to meet others, to meet folks in the, um, in your, you know, DevOps community, to talk and showcase like what you're doing, etc. So it's, it's an easy but very important sell. Um, If that makes sense.

Yeah, no, it does. So the next thing that I'd really like you to share, and I think you're touching on it, and when I ask you why, you've clearly really thought that out, understand it, which I think is really important with stuff like this. Like, you've got the budget and stuff, but like you said, before you start speaking to people about it, you really thought about, okay, well, what is this about? What do I want this to stand for? What's the purpose of it? And I think it goes without saying, like, this has got to be more than like for me so I can place more candidates.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Like, the thing is, I guess this is a whole— this is a whole podcast in itself around the fundamental importance of having diverse tech teams, is we're literally building biased algorithms and biased products, and we're not going to understand the effects too many years down the line. I actually watched a really cool documentary actually last night on Netflix called Coded Bias, which kind of sums up a lot of the work I've been doing for the last 3 years.

Um, what's that called? Sorry, because I think that'd be interesting. Coded Bias.

Coded Bias on Netflix. Okay, cool. I mean, it is in the US, so hopefully you can watch it in, in the UK, but it basically sums up everything that I've been campaigning for, for the last kind of 3 or 4 years. So I like that this kind of conversation is now becoming mainstream, and I think that the layman or even if you don't recruit in this area or care for technology, I think people will start to wake up. So that was really important to me, and representing diverse candidates in the space and being able to build teams that really reflect the world we live in and be able to differentiate— I cannot say that word— differentiate? You know what I'm trying to say.

We know what you're saying.

Yeah. Between my competitors, but yeah, it all just kind of stems down to that, like, true kind of passion and integrity for really wanting to build and scale diverse teams globally.

So my next point on this, and I feel like you've touched on it, so if there's not much to add, just let me know, but I guess, like, where— so, okay, so we thought about the idea of taking the first few steps, but I'm now worried about getting people bought in to getting involved. I think not everyone's going to start a meetup series around diversity inclusion. I think most people would want to try and at least, I'd like to think, understand, contribute or whatever. But I guess where sometimes people then fall short is aren't like clients or candidates just going to think I'm a recruiter trying to get people in the room so I can make money out of them? Do you know what I mean? So I guess, yeah, how did you make sure that— I don't know, how do you get people brought in? So it seems like you really led with like the purpose behind it and stuff, but like how did you get people on the bus and bought into what you're trying to do?

Yeah, definitely. I think even, even that circles back down to that integrity piece.

Yeah, yeah, you're right.

And being— it's a genuine movement which genuinely is advocating for underrepresented groups within technology who are, you know, constantly looking to showcase the voices of intersectional diversity globally. And if you're being genuine and having that integrity piece, people don't look at you like that. You know, they can see what you're doing, you have the track record. It took time to scale, don't get me wrong. At the first few meetups, we maybe only had like 20 to 40, and now we're kind of averaging between like 150 to 200. But also just understanding and having a plan and being able to communicate to anyone that's interested. Okay, well, this is where we are now, this is our roadmap, these are our success points, and this is what we're achieving. And being able to communicate that quite clearly, opposed to just being like, oh well, um, we have these drinks on a Thursday.

And yeah, yeah, I get that. Okay, amazing. So we definitely— I'm, I'm gonna— we'll dig into it now, but before we do, I really want to, want to speak about the D&I piece. Um, And we have been, but like the final piece to tie this all together is back to the point on like how, like you wouldn't have continued to do this. I personally, I think, feel free to disagree with me, but I think it's amazing what you stand for, but there definitely is commercial benefits to this from a recruiter's point of view. Yeah. So like for me, I guess what would be really good for Important to hear is not only, we've just spoken most of the time around the purpose, how it can help people, et cetera, et cetera. But like, let's just break this down really simple for people. Like, how has this helped you grow your recruitment desk? Like, we don't need to talk about how much money it's made you, but let's just talk about how has it actually impacted your recruitment desk? What have been some of the biggest wins that you've had and stuff like that? Because I think that's what recruiters need to hear. That, yeah, this is— yeah.

Um, this, from a commercial sense, this works. Um, to put this into perspective, women in DevOps in 2020 was the fourth highest source of revenue. Wow. Placements in Trust and Soda.

That's big.

Yeah, it was. It came higher than any job board we've invested in. Everything. The only thing that beat it was LinkedIn and different parts and such. So if that doesn't tell you how commercially viable, you know, investing like that purpose time and planning, I don't, I don't know what will. And we had a great year, we had a record-breaking year last year, so it was—

yeah, I love that. Okay, amazing, thank you for sharing that. So, so let's look, because we, because we've ended up going here, let's talk about the D&I piece, right? Because I'm sure you can agree, like you've mentioned it already, I think. So the conversations I've had with recruiters, personally, I feel like most recruiters are genuinely curious, maybe even passionate, and under— wanting to understand like how they can, I don't know, like play a part, right? Because I think as, as we all— well, hopefully if you listen to this, you, you really hold what you do into account, and that's what you learned from Integrity, like really taking what you do seriously as a recruiter. And I think, yeah, I think most clients and businesses, this should be in their top 3 things they will be thinking about. I, I feel like from everything that I'm taking in and the sort of lens that I'm viewing the world through. But I guess like what I'm trying to, what I'm trying to ask you is like there'll be a lot of people listening to this that generally have the right intentions, that are curious about it for the right reasons, do want to know more about it for the right reason, do want to help their clients for the right reasons, but they have no idea where to start. Like, yeah. So like where, where can people start? Like it seems like where you started was you really got curious about it and you wanted to connect people to get educated about it. But I guess for people listening that do share that same intention, the right intention that you've spoken about, that integrity, like, where do we start to learn about this so we can start going on this journey?

Yeah, definitely. Actually, the, the most— the first thing that jumps to my mind is to speak to your candidates and clients. So here in California in particular, and I had this in the UK as well, but more so in the US market, is when you're speaking to hiring managers, 19, you know, the majority of hiring managers now have some sort of driver towards building a diverse team. And that's like at the forefront of their targets, right? So you need to be in as their recruitment partner to be competitive and you need to be a true a true extension to their business, you obviously need to be in line with their thinking, is utilise your immediate network. Just ask questions. And there is a ton of resources out there. There are podcasts on Spotify, there are blogs, there are Instagram accounts, there are books, there's the Netflix documentary that I mentioned earlier. But you sometimes have to have difficult conversations, and that's okay. And that was like a big thing that came out of the Black Lives Matter movement last year in the US is like, have difficult conversations and educate yourself. And it's okay, like, to learn and to like, not necessarily understand, if that makes sense, but just make sure you're educating yourself. I don't want to become— I don't want to be like a preaching podcast, but there is so many resources out there. But maybe start with your hiring managers, like start with your clients, like what are your clients doing around DE&I? What can you be doing more? What are they not seeing from you? If you're not sending a diverse shortlist, why are you not sending a diverse shortlist? Is it worth doing like some unconscious bias training yourself when looking at resumes? And also just understanding that if you're just using the bog-standard recruitment tools, you're probably gonna have an undiverse shortlist in the first place, right? So just also my advice would be like, learn different ways about resourcing diverse candidates. I think it's not making any sense, but like, they weren't the ones that were really sitting on LinkedIn necessarily in the—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think where it all starts, I love that you said that because I think there is that worry, isn't there? Whereas like, am I going to say something wrong or am I going to offend people? And that can really just stop people from taking any sort of action. And also, I think I'll speak for myself, but like being a white male to like try and have conversations about these topics, sometimes you can just feel like, am I the— am I like, who am I to like even talk about this? You get what I mean?

Yeah.

So I think what I love about that, which hopefully people can take away, is like, start— like, if I think you're— like you said, like, if you're not, you need to be at least having the conversations. Like, and it's okay if you're not going to be an expert. You're not— like, that's okay. But it's like, you need to be a recruiter that is willing to at least answer questions and actually to start these conversations, because then you're you're seen as someone that's willing to have those conversations, then you're not going to be, yeah, put aside or left out if there's recruiters that they're working with that aren't actually having those conversations, you know what I mean? So I think it all starts with being curious. Yeah, there's so much information we can self-educate ourselves on and start asking those questions that, yeah, may maybe feel, make you feel a bit, oh, should I be asking that? But I think that's where it all starts.

Exactly. And like, Just to be clear as well, like, this all loops back to being an incredibly high bidder, and everything that we're talking about now puts you into those next bracket, right? It creates employee engagement, it drives right behavior, and ultimately separates you from every other, like, recruiter out there. And Yeah, I feel like in, in today's market, these are some— these are sort of conversations that are going to make you more money, and you're going to be a top-biller off the back of it, um, because you can drive that, that engagement with the client and have those more difficult conversations and just really understand what's important.

Cool, right. I really enjoyed going through that with you.

That was awesome.

No, that was good. So obviously we spoke about 6 months building the platform. Obviously we spoke about Women in DevOps because that was the number 2 thing that you really leveraged to obviously start building a brand over there and stuff like that. So, like, I feel like we've been really positive, right? So people want to know the dark days, like the tough days in recruitment, right? So could you I don't know what comes up for you when I say to you, okay, Lauren, well, what, like, where were like the really challenging points and experiences that you had to work through when going through this transition and journey and building out this American business from scratch? Like, I don't know, what were some of the real biggest challenges and hurdles that you had to overcome?

The, the real dark days was building a business from scratch in a brand new continent and landing 4 days before a national state lockdown during a pandemic that was about to last 12 months and not knowing, not knowing what was going to happen. That was tough. That was really, really tough. We had a plan, you know, we were prepared. We'd mapped out our strategy, but I'm guessing like everyone else in this industry hadn't mapped out what we were going to do in the scenario.

Does that lead you going to the bin, basically, a lot of it?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we still have the structure, right? And we came out the other side, we still had an incredibly successful year, um, and generated revenue and, and yeah, brought on new clients, and, and that was— it was fine. But you— we immediately had to pivot in regards to how we were embracing recruitment and how we were going to do things differently and how we were going to scale. I guess everything that I've done in the last 24 months, the question at the end of every plan is like, will this scale? Can this scale? So it was trying to make sure that everything we were still doing was scalable during a pandemic because it was all part of this bigger picture. We didn't want to just still be like a you know, a 2-man team, um, in 12 months' time. So they were the dark days of just having to pivot, having to be agile, having to think on your feet, make quick decisions, um, and just back yourself. And I've definitely struggled with confidence in the past. Yeah, that was a tough time for me.

Well, what— what— because I think, like, we can talk about it now, can't we? But, like, I mean, it's so easy to forget, like, how you would have felt and how you would have been thinking in those periods, you know what I mean? But like, I don't know what helped you get through that period because like, yeah, you've come out the other side. There's great things that you can talk about. But I guess what— because I think people can relate to this, not just because of the last year, but we all have those low days in recruitment, don't we? And we all have those really difficult times you've got to push through. I guess what were your sort of anchor points or what did you sort of draw on to be like, no, this is why I'm here, this is why I'm doing it, that helped you sort of see some of the light at the end of the tunnel?

Drinking a lot of red wine, definitely.

It's fair.

I drank a lot of wine in 2020. Honestly, just sticking to your vision, and that's something I think we've really nailed at Trust and Soda, is like having that vision, believing in it, saying we're gonna do it and do it, and it didn't matter kind of what went wrong or what fell through, or we just kept that vision at the forefront of everything we were doing and did not let us deviate, which is, we have a 2 and a 5-year plan basically, is the immediate vision was where do you want to be Q4 2022? What that looked like from a revenue perspective, headcount perspective, you know, additional offices in the US, and I just kind of kept that there, literally like drew out a chart and put put it on my bedroom wall because obviously I wasn't going to the office. I had the numbers highlighted and it was just a case of we will get there, we've just got to take the long route, we're just gonna have to take a couple of alleyways and yeah, just the importance, I cannot stress the importance of having a vision.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the common thing, I think it's if you haven't taken the time, take a step back and think about why you're doing it or where you're going, then yeah, you can't then take that step back, can you? And you're just then focused on the challenges that you face that day rather than like, that will only be one day out of 300 days on the way to where you want to get to. Do you know what I mean?

So, yeah, okay, exactly. Sorry.

No, no, no, go on.

I was going to add that I think it's so easy to be bogged down, especially in the pandemic, you know, deals fell through because people lost budget and, you know, people didn't turn up to interviews because they had childcare that day and all those little things. It's so easy to build on that, but when you're just so crystal clear, okay, well, that's what I need to achieve, this is such a small piece of the journey and puzzle, all of a sudden it kind of like took the stress away. Not all of it, but like, I know what you mean. Yeah, perspective, like, perspective is so important.

Okay, so before we finish then, let's get into some details which I think people would really enjoy and want to know. So like people want to know, like, can you actually like make more money in America? Like, what are— let's tell us a bit about the typical sort of percentages that you'd agree with clients. Talk to us about average deal size compared to— because you was doing the same market in the UK.

Yes.

But now in America, right? So just give us some like real-life context on that in your world, because I think people want to know that.

Yeah, I cannot stress enough how exciting the US recruitment market is and the real opportunity to make incredible profit here. There's, I think Ashley might have mentioned this, my founder, on his podcast with you actually, but there's something ridiculous that there's 26,000 less recruitment companies in the US than there is in the UK.

That's mental.

And then if you just think about the sheer scale and population contrast between the UK and the US, it's almost like, why wouldn't you do the US market? Um, but on top of that, the commercial— the commercial— it just makes commercial sense, um, to focus and invest in the US. So my average margin in, in the UK was, was sat around at the 18% mark, um, in regards to—

when you say margin, sorry, just so as in the average What do you mean?

Sorry, like the, the agreed, like, fee, like the percentage? Okay, sorry, I did, I did perm recruitment in the UK. Out here we're sitting around the 25% mark. Wow. So you're looking at, you know, a good 7% difference, which would add up in the UK. And then you add the perspective of— so my core market is DevOps, and, you know, a good senior DevOps engineer in London would earn, you know, somewhere between kind of 75 to $85,000 to $90,000 mark. In the US, or in particular in California, we're looking at like $175,000 to $200,000.

It's 25% of that.

All of a sudden you're looking at, you know, $35,000 to $40,000, $45,000.

What was your average deal size last year?

Our average deal size last year was $30,000.

Yes, that's— and it's like, I know there's nuances and stuff like that, I know, but people want to know this, but like It is as a, as a whole, just we're going to paint like just a general brush of this. It's the same skill set.

It's exactly the same skill set. You just have to learn about like compliance and, you know, all those elements which you need to learn in the UK in the first place. It's no different to GDPR in an R35. But if we're talking about the skill set of just If you really break it down, right, of picking up jobs and placing candidates, there is zero difference across the Atlantic, except we are looking at incredibly higher fees.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And more of it, you know, it's less saturated.

Yeah. Okay, I'm glad you shared that. So what, what I want to know as well then is like, so over the last— so what did you, what did you end up doing billings-wise for you personally in that sort of first whole year of actually being in America? Does that work out with your year-to-year, or what was the first?

Personally, I billed about, I think it was $720,000 last year. Wow.

Yeah.

I mean, I did— that does include some kind of some contract stuff, but, um, yeah, it was, it was a good, a good year. As a team, we want to do more closer to $2.6 million this year. And bearing in mind, you know, we only landed on the, on the ground last March and it's been a pandemic. Hopefully that gives you an idea of the sort of scale that is really realistic if you work hard and have a business plan, a really clear vision.

Yeah, because I, I just want to know then before we finish this, because I think it's really important just to— because I think this is a big reason why I started this, is to actually just give like the actual realities, because it's we can hear those big numbers and go, oh yeah, like, I'm sure it's been easy, like, you're doing the same job in the UK but you're getting paid more for it, right? But I know that's far from the truth. So like, I guess one, the first thing, first part is, how long would you say that it really took for you to build traction, to get to the point where you had sort of monthly opportunities to make a good amount of placements? Like, how long did it take? Obviously, you started 6 months in the UK, build a platform and then went on the ground, but then COVID hit. But like, what, how long would the time would you say it took to get traction for people to know?

6 months would be my number. And when thinking about hiring my team and scaling my team, like 6, 6 months from a, from a standing start.

Standing start.

Yeah.

Yeah. Nice. So the next thing that I want to know is then like, what has been, and again, you may end up saying women in DevOps, but I want this, I want you to share this. So like, What has been like the most effective way for you to get traction on the client side over the last 18 months?

Women in DevOps has definitely been one of them, especially in California where diversity is really at the forefront. And I'd also say like your referrals and networks. Like, the thing is about the US is you also, you have some of the best brands in the world here, right? It's just mad what's on your doorstep, especially here in California. And I know there's other locations like Austin and New York when thinking about, um, technology in particular. But once you start building your network and get recommendations, like, it's just like wildfire. And it's such a huge piece of land, but it's also such a small world. If you do a good job for good people, they're going to tell people about it and you're going to have retainers on before HR even know about it to some extent. But Women in DevOps, of course, has been a great way for us because it's a passive and unique candidate pool that just no one else has. And I cannot stress enough about thinking about kind of your market and how you can build something similar. And the third thing is just absolute sheer persistence and resilience and just every day just turning up and, and working, for lack of a better expression, your ass off.

Yeah, yeah. So love that. So like, what, what I want to know then before we finish— so people love this stuff as well, Lauren, okay? I'm just asking what people want to know, okay? She just mentioned that, so I think you broke that down really well. But people want to know. So you said they're around showing up every day, doing what we need to do. So like people want to know how you've remained productive, how you've sort of maxed what you've done to maximize most your days, weeks, right? So people always ask me like, what does a typical day for Lauren look like? How do you structure your day? Do you do 2 hours of BD always in the morning? Like, I don't know, like people just want to, people want to know this stuff, right?

Yeah.

So like, I guess, how have you over the years and what do you do, what are your non-negotiables now, but like how do you structure your day to give yourself the best chance of performing every day?

Yeah, definitely. So there's definitely some like deviations in this, but to give you a bit of like a rough idea, um, so first thing, set my team up for the day. You know, we have like big goals, mini goals for across the quarter, the day, in the morning, um, And that could be anything in regards to leads, you know, resumes sent. Oh gosh, I'm really American now. To, you know, client calls, but then also it could be anything from, you know, LinkedIn content and, you know, how many comments or likes we aim to get here, like how we engage in our community today, what do I post, like setting up the team and just kind of getting them on board and just reinvested every single day exactly what it is we're trying to achieve, like, um, on a daily basis. And then, um, I tend to work on candidate stuff in the morning. I'm such a foodie, and like, food just gives me life, so it makes sense to do client work in the afternoon. Um, but I always finish the day with— and actually, something you taught me— around like content and embedding myself into the social media of my market and taking that opportunity to learn. I then kind of break my day up a little bit differently. I kind of try to finish at like an okay time, head home, go for a walk, have dinner, whatever, and then I jump back on my laptop and then really use those like few hours to get my admin done. Like, I just feel like your days are so important that I don't want to be sat doing admin in the middle of the day. That is my opportunity to speak to candidates, to speak to clients, to get on the phone, and then I kind of do my admin like back end end of the day on the sofa, usually a glass of red wine as we've established on this podcast, and make sure that's up to speed. Because actually, as a parting, like, piece of advice, I was really poor at admin for the first 4 years of my career, and I kick myself every day for not being better because I now understand the importance of the database and what it can generate for you. And when thinking about your future self like, just make sure your stuff is on, on whatever system and you're recording it and you're recording notes because your memory is not as good as you think it is. And, um, the last 2 years I started to really take data seriously and make data-driven decisions, and it has changed— it has changed the game for me.

Yeah. So when you say admin, just to be clear, you're talking about making sure that, yeah, the database is up to scratch, up to date, all of that?

Yeah, even if the candidates aren't right for your roles, like, get them on there, like, code it up, tag it. We use Bullhorn as our CRM, so I know, you know, everyone uses different stuff, but, um, and just having, like, accurate notes. Um, I was also so blasé for so many years, and, um, I really kick myself because when thinking about your future self and if you want to be a manager, your future team, that is a gold mine for the next kind of, like, yeah, of your life.

I think that's a great way to put it, is like, when you, when you're, if you're listening to this and you're thinking after that call, I can't wait to put those notes on, whatever, it's like, right, I need to think of my future self. Like, I think that's such a good way to put it. Yeah, I mean, um, okay, so we always end with like 5 final questions. Okay, but I've got like 2 just really simple ones before I ask. Okay, so as we're talking about structuring a day and stuff like that, I always love asking this question. So What do you think is the most important action or KPI that contributes to recruiter success? The most important one.

The most important KPI? Yeah, I would say your resume or your CV sent to first interview ratio.

Nice, I like that. That's a good one. A few people said that, and quite a few people have said number of meaningful conversations every day. But yeah, I think I really like that one. That's a good one.

I do like meaningful conversations, but I feel like meaningful— like, how is that? How tangible is that?

Yeah, yeah, I know.

I like a bit of tangibility in my life.

Okay, I like it.

You can't measure quality of a meaningful conversation because, like, what's the action point?

Yeah, to see that. Yeah, I like that. Cool. So the other question is, I know, yeah, so you're, as you shared, like you have a vision on these things. So I guess like what, how do you view this sort of US market, recruitment market over the next sort of year or two? Like, oh, is it because I think before COVID I think so many recruitment businesses I spoke to, like it was all about the US. And I think some companies have still sort of continued to make that happen. But I guess if I'm listening to this right now, like, how realistic is it for me as a UK-based recruiter? I may have experience, got a good track record of like taking my career to the States, but is that still attainable over the next 12, 24 months? And do you think that's something that I should be thinking about?

Why are you still thinking about it? Just do it. No, no, like, honestly, definitely. We've got huge scale plans to scale across Boston, Midwest offices. We're just pumping more gas rather than taking our foot off the pedal. We're obviously expanding globally and looking at Switzerland and DACH and stuff like that, and they're also being super successful. But for me, my focus is obviously the US, and it's where a lot of our investment and time and resources is going.

So I guess why I asked that was like, would— do you think it's going to be more difficult for me to get a visa, let's say? Or do you— I don't know, any sort of things like that that you've been thinking about or know about, just out of interest?

Um, I'm not an immigration attorney, so I don't necessarily want to make any like sweeping statements.

Yeah, of course.

Um, I think with the new US administration and the new government, that I think that's going to change kind of the narrative of of what visas look like. And I'm really quietly confident that when the borders open, I'm certainly really excited to look at internal and external talent from the UK. And I'm hoping it'll be a fairly seamless transition. For full transparency, getting my own personal visa was the most underwhelming process I've ever been through.

What do you mean by underwhelming? Like difficult?

No, and I thought it'd be really hard. And honestly, I was so nervous about my visa appointment. They just asked what my degree was and then just like stamped my passport and that was that. I was like, right, okay. Um, but look, as long as you've got good leadership and good attorneys, I really do not foresee problems.

Because what visa are you on? Just on that, because I think that's interesting for you. Like, how does it work?

Yeah, I'm on an E2. So the biggest ones, if, if you're in the UK um, is the E-2 or the L-1 visa. So your L-1 is like your internal business transfer, and then your E-2 is the investor visa. So for us, it made commercial sense to go down the E-2 route, and we can just add people to our E-2 visa. Um, it's a fair— it's a fairly simple process.

Okay, nice. Yeah, and I know that that goes about disclaimer that Lauren isn't an immigration attorney or whatever, but yeah, it's just people want to know like how realistic is it and stuff. Okay.

Yeah, all right. Yeah, I don't— I feel, I feel like that could put people, like, people off, do I mean, being like, I've got all this stuff. Yeah, yeah, really it's just a few forms you fill in and an interview, and there's, there's lots that you can do to control it.

If you're in— I'd like to think, like, if you're— again, general statement— but if you're in a company that is taking America seriously, I'd like to think they'd invest in the right law help and stuff like that. So I think they'd be able to tell you 'Yeah, Lauren, look, with your background or whatever you have, because you don't have this, I'm not sure how realistic—' Do you know what I mean? I'd like to think that they'd be able to find that quite quickly, wouldn't they?

Yeah, you can turn up to the embassy and they say— sometimes, you know, it's not as straightforward as that and you still have to go through the embassy interview. But I would just hate for that process to put anyone off from this adventure.

Yeah, absolutely. Right, so I've got a last couple of questions for you, okay? We'll finish this up. So first one is, um, If you could change the industry, what would you improve?

Oh, I would improve— I might be biased because when I came into industry it was call times and lead sheets, but that just mentality of like, that's how you measure success within trainees and junior consultants. I really hate that mentality.

Nice. So what book have you read, and that could be either audio, I don't know, just something that you've taken in that's had the biggest impact on you, could be something you watched.

It's actually a book that underpins a big presentation I did in Brazil a few years ago around recruitment. It is called Technically Wrong by— Technically Wrong. Yeah, it's It's called Technically Wrong by Sarah someone. Maybe you could put the link to it.

Yeah, I will. I'll put the link to it.

Sarah Watcher, Bocher. I'm really sorry. Not that Sarah will be listening, but if I pronounce that wrong.

Technically Wrong.

Okay, cool. Yeah, and basically that kind of underpinned the mindset change of how important diversity was and how I was basically going to build a recruitment strategy with DE&I at the focus of it. I love that.

It's a bit of a different and fun one here. Yes. What did you spend your first biggest commission paycheck on?

I went to Dubai for the Dubai Sevens. I'm a big rugby fan, so I went out to Dubai and spent every penny of it. It was, but yeah, awesome.

Final question: what's the ultimate goal for your recruitment career?

The ultimate goal for me is to be leading and growing the US for Chernovo Group with multiple different brands underneath me, multiple different offices, and having the highest performing office within Chernovo. I'm here for a long time, like, I'm really sold, like, I Yeah, Geneva is it for me and had a great journey so far and there's so much, still so much more to achieve. So yeah, taking on America. Love it.

Lauren, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.