Lloyd Stokes-Building a recruitment business from scratch at home to now growing team with his wife.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Lloyd Stokes, who is the founder of a recruitment business called Talent Digital, and they are a tech and digital sales and marketing agency based in the lovely Ashford, Kent. Welcome to the podcast, Lloyd.

Thank you.

Thanks for joining me. I think, um, obviously we got introduced by April, who's also been on the podcast, didn't we? So Looking forward to this one. Obviously we just had a good chat before we started, but as I was saying, where I always like to start on this podcast is how you got into recruitment. And we'll sort of then, with you being a recruitment business owner, we'll have a real good conversation around your journey so far and running your own recruitment agency. But how did you get into recruitment, Lloyd Stokes? Talk to us.

So as I was saying before we started, um, left school Uh, went to uni for a year, had about 15 jobs up until I was about 23, including being a postman.

What degree did you do?

Business and marketing.

The only reason I asked that— the last couple of episodes, there's, um, like, prop— um, they've been property recruiters and they both did philosophy degrees.

Really?

And then have ended up in recruitment for like 5, 10 years. So just interested there.

But yeah, I did, I did one year of a business and marketing degree, and the only thing that I can remember is that there's an added study. We did a study of JFK and the assassination, and And that was amazing. And then after a year I left. All right. And then I worked at Asda.

Okay. Um, yeah, so loads of different jobs.

Yeah, yeah, uh, checkered past. Anyway, um, and then I came to London. I got a job in sales working for a company called Video Arts, who, um, were a video training company founded by John Cleese.

Okay.

Um, was there for about 18 months, and I just wasn't quite sure where I was going, so I went to I had no idea really about recruitment or the job market in London at all. So went to go meet a recruitment agency called Certus Sales at the time. They're now Certus Recruitment, um, uh, who are in Covent Garden. Uh, got pitched on about 5 different sales roles, and at the end, like, some guy came in and said, um, have you thought about recruitment? And I was like, nope, not at all. Um, so talked about it for a bit, sounded pretty interesting, good group of guys. Went back for a second interview, um, talked to the sales director about rugby for about an hour, and then for 15 minutes talked about the job, and then got off of the job.

Wow.

Um, so that was back in 2007.

2007. So yeah, so you've been in recruitment for over a decade now?

Not entirely, no.

Oh yeah, no, sorry. Yeah, so you— because you— so you— so you had like a— what is it, like a 2, 3-year stint initially at that business?

Yeah.

And then you left And then I saw on your LinkedIn profile, so you left there, and then did you stay in recruitment or not?

Yeah, so I, um, so did 2 years at Certus. Yeah, first year 2007. Yeah, uh, smashed it, like absolutely smashed it. Yeah, first year, like, loved it. 2008, credit crunch, um, literally just decimated— well, I didn't decimate the business, the business was still running, but it just went from being, um, Yeah, big billing to suddenly no one was hiring. It was incredibly hard. Um, client that I was recruiting for at the time approached me about a role, and I just completely left recruitment for 18 months. Really? Yep. Um, got approached after 18 months, wasn't quite sure whether what I was doing was quite right. Got approached by the founders of Certus again. Yeah. Who are like, look, we've ridden through it, we're doing well, we've hired some good people, we don't really have much experience. Would you be interested in coming back in more of a kind of billing manager's role? Um, so yeah, then I went back, went back in 2011.

Wow, okay.

So no, 2010, 2010.

And then, and then how long was you there for that period?

4 years.

Yeah, yeah, because that 4 years. So overall you worked that business for like 6 years?

6 years in total, yeah.

And then after that you went— did you go internal? No, no, after that, because there was another role before you started your own business, right?

So 4 years at Certus, was just not sure of really career-wise where I wanted to go.

Yeah.

Um, was running their London office, like 22 consultants. Um, we're doing well, but I just didn't know whether I really wanted to be in recruitment long term or what kind of what I felt like was good recruitment or what, you know, what I wasn't sure about the industry. So I left, um, and had about 3 months out, and then I joined a software company in a sales management role.

Yeah.

Um, and was there for a year. Yeah. And literally, I think within about a month of joining that business, I just thought, this is just wrong, it's not for you. Yeah, just there's something not right about this. I didn't— and at the time, like, it took me some time to realize, but what it was really is I'd spent 10 years commuting to London, um, and I think I'm Ashford, from Ashford. Yeah. So I lived in Ashford, I lived in London for a year.

Yeah.

And, um, loved it, but born and bred in Ashford. That's where kind of family, friends, and everything is, so— and still is. Um, and yeah, I just was— I don't know, I just, I just couldn't see myself spending the next like 30 years of my life.

Yeah, yeah, you struggle to sort of visualize yourself there. Yeah, the next couple of years to commit to something.

Yeah, I just— I literally get the train to work in the morning and see all of these miserable people on the train, you know, in their like 40s and 50s, and I'm thinking to myself, I can't do this for the rest of my life. So then I'm thinking, okay, I need to do something which is nearer to home. Um, I thought about the idea of doing my own business but not really seriously.

Yeah.

And I literally just one day was like, I'm doing it, so I'm just gonna do it and just see what happens. I'm getting out of London.

And how old was you at that point? How, how old was you at that point?

Uh, so that was 4 years ago, so I was 34.

Wow, okay. Yeah, that's interesting then. It's been an interesting journey. Yeah, I don't know, the point of you deciding to start your own business, I think I mean, I'd probably be fair to say that you would probably be classed as a job hoppy candidate up until that point. Close, uh, maybe.

Oh yeah, like 2 years, 18 months, 4 years. Yeah, probably.

So I'm not sure if I'd call me main driver then, or one of the main drivers was you want to work from home, and then you wasn't sure— not work from home, sorry, but work close to home.

Yeah, but no, work from home to begin with. Yeah, it's just like, I just want to get a bit more balance, like, in life. That was it.

That was one of the main drivers.

Yeah, yeah, no, massively it was. Yeah, my wife and I were trying for a family, and it was like, if we're gonna have children, am I going to be like getting on a train at 6 o'clock in the morning and not getting home to work? I'm not going to see them, and then at the weekend I'm going to be knackered.

Um, so was there a particular moment then? It seems like you sort of built up to the point of like, yeah, I've seen these people, I don't want to be that person in 10, 15, 20 years. You're sort of realize what your priorities are, what's important to you. And yeah, was there a bit of a moment where you're like, you know what, actually, why not? Let's see if I can do my own thing. Or was it just a buildup of just realizing, well, actually—

In all honesty, I think at first it was like a buildup of just, I don't want to do this, I'm fed up with this. And then I was like, well, what can I do? And I thought about it loosely before and I thought, actually, I could do that. Selling a software which I thought I'd really enjoy and running like that, I realized that I really loved recruitment. I really, really enjoyed the process. I enjoyed the challenges. I enjoyed— I actually enjoyed everything about recruitment. I enjoyed the diversity of it rather than just selling the same product day in, day out. Yeah, yeah, just people, that like huge interaction. Um, and I was good at it.

So yeah, but it was the, it was the stuff that came with that when you worked in London. That sort of probably encouraged you to try other things and work at other businesses, but it took you a little while to realize, well, actually it's probably the commute and everything else that comes with it.

Yeah, I think so. I think it just like— yeah, I was 25 when I got into recruitment. I'm always astounded by these like 20, 20-year-olds or 21-year-olds who like come in and like spend like 7 or 8 years in one business because I'm just like, it took me quite a while to really understand like what I was good at and what I enjoyed.

And I think, I think, yes, it takes experimentation and trying different things, right?

Yeah, which massively helps that.

Um, okay. Interested in. So decided to start your own business. Um, so the first year then, yeah, was it just you? Or just to sort of frame it up, because obviously there's— I didn't say in the intro, but there's 5 of you now. Yeah, where you are currently is there's 5 of you. You've been on a bit of a journey in terms of the market that you serve and focus on. I know, as you said before we started, in the process of going through a bit of a rebrand and changing name. But when— let's just sort of go to the beginning, like how Yeah, so what, what did the first year look like, and was it just you?

Yeah, yeah.

Was it?

Yeah, yeah. So I think if you were setting up a recruitment business, I did it in the worst possible way. Why? Um, so I had 18 months— my last 18 months at Certus, I was running an office. I didn't have any clients, I did no billing, nothing at all. Literally managing managers. Um, so all of my relationships were gone, and then I did a year working in a completely different sector.

Wow.

So when I set up by myself, it was literally in the study at home with a computer, having not recruited nothing for 2 and a half years. No relationships, no contacts.

Where did you start then?

I was like, shit, like, what am I gonna do? We're not gonna get— I've written this business plan.

Um, why did you write a business plan? Let's just share that through, because I think I've, yeah, I've spoken to a couple of people where it's like, yeah, should— how much of a business plan should I have? Like, I think someone said recently, I can't remember who it is, I'm not sure if I've shared the podcast yet, but, and they said sort of obviously a plan's important, but like the actual purpose is the key part really. Like if you've got a plan, that's great, which hopefully you should be able to be flexible with it. But for me, if I think Tim said actually, Tim said, yeah. So if he was to go back, he's like to really nail that down. 'Cause obviously he started at home and things like that. So similar journey, but where did you, yeah, like what did the business plan, what was involved in that?

'Cause as you just said, So I had no idea how to write a business plan. My wife was a business studies teacher, A-levels business studies teacher, and she was like fully supportive of just the whole idea of getting more balance. But she said to me, if you're going to do it, then you've got to write a business plan because obviously you're walking away from being an employee, paid job. We've got mortgage and stuff like that to do. So I need to know that you've thought about this long and hard and there's some framework.

It's not just something that you've just popped up here.

Exactly that. Yeah, it's not a whim. And I'm 34 years old at that time, so I can't just, like, yeah, yeah, you've got responsibility. So yeah, I mean, she actually helped me quite a lot because she knew what a business plan should incorporate. Um, so we did, we did it together. Um, but fundamentally, when it comes down to it, on day one, you, you're back just as a recruiter. You know, you can have a plan and intention, and we mapped out growth and hiring and, um, costs and those kind of things, but that, that changes dramatically. Um, Stuff that you— some, you know, things that you think are going to cost you a lot sometimes don't cost you as much, and, and vice versa. So it's good to have, like, it's good to have it, but I think the purpose or the intention of why you're doing it, of why you really want to do it, like, what's going to— a business plan is not going to get you up in the morning and drive you on. What, like, that, that's, that's having a purpose, that's having an intention to want to try and create something.

So what was your intention then at that point, and has it evolved?

Yeah, like evolved, like changed completely. Um, my intention at the time was to get back to doing something that I enjoyed.

Yeah.

Um, to get more control and balance in my life and to test out whether I was any good working for myself and whether I actually enjoyed it.

Yeah, because you've never done it before.

Yeah, yeah, like outside of anything else, that, that—

yeah, that's fair enough. That's a real honest sort of thing to Yeah, I think that's fair. Yeah.

I mean, I listen to a lot of other people's podcasts and they'll talk, you know, other founders who talk about, you know, I had like a massive plan and I was going to nail this, this, this. That wasn't what I was looking to do at first. It was just kind of make this work. Yeah, sure. Can I— do I want— yeah, at the time we were just— I was just working with digital brands and, uh, or trying to work with digital brands, and I wanted to work with them because I thought it was cool and interesting, and I met some really interesting people along that journey, but Like, fundamentally it was, I want to do something work-wise that I enjoy and have control over and have balance.

That was it. I really like that. So then the actual practicalities then of like what you did in those first couple of months then, was it as literally as— so yeah, so how do you decide on the market then? So did you go back to the market that you served in your recruitment days, or—

yeah, so when I, um, my whole time at Certus was sales recruitment, um generically, and then we started to like silo that down into certain sectors.

Yeah.

And then I launched their digital, uh, part of their business.

Okay.

Um, which kind of got my interest going around kind of what digital was, and, and, um, started working with some clients in that space. Um, so when it came to then setting up the business myself, it just made complete sense because whilst I didn't necessarily have lots of, um, clients to bring over, I, I did know people about them. Yeah, I did know people.

Yeah. And you knew a bit about the sector?

Yeah, exactly.

Experience, familiarity.

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I literally just pick up the phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I did first was I went through my LinkedIn connections.

Yeah.

I went through every single first connection. Yeah. And I looked at the people and went, who do I actually genuinely have a connection with?

Yeah.

Um, who could I pick up the phone to and just see if they like can help me?

How many, how many people fell into that category, would you say, when you did that? Was that not as many?

No, no, not as many as you think. No. Yeah, not as many as you think.

Uh, that's interesting. But it would— did not as many as you thought?

No. 20, 25.

Yeah, it's mad, right?

That sounds terrible because—

no, no, it's just like the only reason I asked that is interesting because like we all as recruiters spend all day on this platform, like I do. You connect with fuck loads of people and you just see that number going up and up and you forget And then it's like, okay, push comes to shove, who out of this network will actually help me? And I think it's interesting that.

But do you know the thing that I really realised, and I realise now more than ever in the last 2 years, 'cause I've really focused on it, is up until that point, I hadn't worked in environments or even personally placed like massive emphasis on building relationships.

Wow, okay.

I'd recruited and worked on roles and made placements, But the deep relationships, which are more than just like, I've got a CV, do you want to see that person? Yeah, there weren't that many.

Didn't cultivate.

No, no, I didn't. I didn't.

Why? Why? Why is that? Is that, is that a fact? Yeah. Why didn't, why didn't you do that?

Um, I think that I worked in an environment where we were very fast-paced and, um, quite number and metric focused as a business. And maybe didn't have as much time to do that. But I also think I, I just didn't place enough importance on it. I didn't, I didn't— it was like, I've got a client, they've got some roles, and I need to fill them. And I think also when I got into recruitment back in 2007, it was a great market just before the credit crunch. It was an amazing market. So it's just like client, yeah, yeah, you know, I did, um, I did almost 200 grand in my first year.

Cheers.

Um, yeah, I just thought, this is amazing, I'm so good at this. And then completed it. Yeah, too. Credit crunch, did like half of that thing.

Um, fair enough. So yeah, it's just more of a few different factors, but yeah, that's interesting. So first 6 months then, like, when did you do your first deal? Um, remember?

Yeah, I do. Yeah. Um, literally just before Christmas.

So, so how long?

Um, 3 and a half months. Really? Yeah, Charlotte Price, Climb Online.

Yes, there we go. Remember it?

There you go. Junior marketing sales role. And you know what, the really interesting thing about that is, I don't mind referencing it on here, Climb Online's a digital marketing agency founded by a guy called Mark Wright.

Yeah.

Sounds like I'm promoting his business. He won The Apprentice back in 2014. Okay. And I kind of knew.

Oh, okay. Is it what, is he No, it's not South African.

It's Australian.

Australian.

Yeah, yeah.

So I know who you're on about.

Yeah, I met him once because we worked for the same company at different point. I literally messaged him on LinkedIn because I didn't have his number saying, I've just set up, like, would you help me? And he literally came back to me straight away and was like, yeah, yeah, let's have a call. And he was like, I'd love to help you, screw me on the fees, but, but, um, yeah, give you a chance.

Yeah, yeah, that's all you need.

And he said to me, he said, I can screw you on the fees because I'm gonna be your first client. And I was like, yeah, that's fair, but what can we do? So, um, it was amazing. Digital marketing agency, perfect.

Let's just talk about those first couple of months. Yeah, because I can imagine someone listening right now, or someone early on in that journey thinking about starting their own recruitment business or going for that at the moment, that, that's obviously one of the biggest fears, right? Like, am I gonna, am I gonna be able to make placements? Yeah, I've been working for someone for a while. Yeah, am I going to be able to make placements? So those first couple of months like, how, how did you get through those months on essentially blanking and not making any money? Like, did you, did you have in your head that, right, I'm going to give myself at least 6 months at this before I'm like, you know what, maybe this isn't for me, or something? Do you know what I mean? So like, how did you, how did you get through those first couple of months then to keep going?

So yeah, so I had 6 months is actually— that was the number.

So give yourself a runway.

Yeah, yeah. I was like, if after 6 months I'm not making money and I'm not enjoying it, then I'll go and find a job elsewhere. So 6 months. But then what I did, um, what I did was I made sure that I had enough money saved before I started.

Yeah.

To know that I wasn't under like extreme pressure from like day one.

Good advice. Um, I got, I got given the advice to give yourself at least 3 months personally. Yeah, that's the advice that I got.

So I had I had like to run the business costs and house mortgage payments and everything, like live the same life pretty much, like 4 months.

Almost, yeah.

But then the thing is as well that I realized is that for most people, when you've got— if you can drive your costs down, you don't actually need that much money to live on a month-to-month basis. So when you actually realize what you need and what— it's like one fee, it's like one placement.

Yeah.

So it's different.

That's a great thing when you're just working out your study at home. Overheads aren't much.

You've barely got any cost at all.

So like, what were your— what were the first sort of tools that you invested in? Did you invest in like LinkedIn Recruiter straight away? Did you get a decent CRM?

Um, I invested in a, um, like dirt cheap CRM.

Yeah.

Um, because I was, um, I invested in LinkedIn Recruiter Lite.

Yeah.

Um, and that was it.

That was it.

Yeah.

Yeah. CRM. No, it's mad, that, innit? That's all you needed for a business.

No, no job boards. Um, Nothing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I hammered referrals, really. So if I got a role, like, every single candidate, I was like, who else do you know? Who else do you know? Who else do you know? I'll pay you, I think it was like £250. Yeah. Um, if I place that person.

So, so, so those first couple of months then, like, you basically— did you just sort of get momentum through leveraging those 20 people that said, you know what, actually, Lloyd, yeah, I'll help you out, or whatever? And then it just sort of snowballed and built momentum from that?

It's just it, yeah, it took some time. It did take some time because, yeah, yes, I had those connections, but, and people were quite happy to have a conversation and help, but it took some time to identify the right kind of businesses that I wanted to work with, get the right kinds of roles on. I was also, I mean, I wasn't so hard on myself, so I wasn't, I, I gave myself like set work hours, but I also, if I wanted to go and have like a slightly longer lunch, yeah, I did.

Yeah, I didn't beat yourself up too much.

No, like, because I just, again, in my head I was thinking, because for me year one was like, am I going to enjoy it? I wasn't trying to like build, make loads of cash, I just wanted to like have enough.

Yeah.

And see whether— so I was like, I'm going to enjoy it and just see if I just enjoy it.

And that's awesome.

And I actually met a client who we sat down, had such a like good like lunch with him, and he said year one of running your own business is so much fun because— and he was Spanish and he was like, I did mine in Barcelona. And he said I just go out for like Friday afternoon, I'd 2 o'clock, I just go, man, I'm just going to the beach. Um, um, and he had the same attitude, but he said, I'm telling you, by the time you get to year 3 and 4, it will be very different. And he's right. Yeah.

Okay, so, um, so then, so then, okay, so year 1 then.

Yeah.

What did you do in year 1 then? If obviously the focus was, am I enjoying this? Am I enjoying the process, the journey, working out the types of businesses you're going to work with, building a bit of momentum?

Revenue-wise, yeah.

What'd you do, billions-wise?

Yeah, uh, like 60 to 60 grand.

Yeah, yeah, not bad at doing that out of your study, is it?

It literally paid for like— we— my lifestyle pretty much stayed exactly the same. Yeah, because I worked out— one of the things I worked out was the fact that I was spending 12 grand gross of my salary on travel just to get to work and back every day. So I was like, I just take 12 grand off.

Yeah.

And then think about what I actually need to have. Yeah, have and earn month to month.

How did you find working at home out of a study? If I'm thinking right now, should I go straight into getting some sort of co-working membership or whatever, or should I just smash it almost like— how did you find that personally? Because me personally, I can— I couldn't work from home, but I, I rent a flat in London, so I haven't got the freedom to create some sort of nice working environment at home. Yeah, I just haven't got that capability right now. So yeah, I couldn't— for the thought of me smashing out phone calls and these types of things in my living room, I'd hate it. I'd just be around people personally.

Yeah.

How did you find that? Because I, again, I work with quite a lot of, um, one-man bands, smaller businesses, and, and some of them do work in office but are sort of toying with the idea of maybe should I get somewhere. Obviously we spoke today about getting a membership at where we're recording this podcast, but like, how did you find that first year of like just smashing out in your study room?

I loved it.

Really?

Yeah, no, I loved it because— yeah, I loved it. Yeah, I was sat in shorts and t-shirt like pretty much every single day.

Oh God, you were born for the digital industry, man.

Just check me out, check me out. I was just sat there.

Yeah.

And I worked in— so I was quite methodical about my day. I'd get up, I'd take the dog for a nice walk.

She had a bit of a routine.

Yeah, I had like a good routine, but then working, like, I, I still do, but I work really well in bursts. So I'd be like literally like an hour, an hour and a half of just like intense focus and work.

Yeah.

And then just go and like chill out for 15, 20 minutes and just like just do anything else. Like, it doesn't matter, like put the washing on or something like that, something really mundane.

Yeah.

Um, and then, and then back to it again. Um, but again, because I wasn't putting super, super amounts of pressure on myself, I would start like 8:30 and work till 5:30.

Yeah, it's just nice to have that flexibility.

Yeah, and I could get a lot done like in that time. I could get a lot done, and it's just you, right? So you haven't got anybody else to manage or train or coach or— yeah, I wasn't really too bothered about getting a massive brand out there. I was just trying to find some roles and see— yeah, yeah, build some relationships.

Fair enough. So, so year 2 then?

Yep.

What went on in year 2? Like, so did you make your first hire by then, or was you still in the study? Just to sort of set this in.

So year 2, I hired my wife.

Wow.

Yeah, we didn't talk about that before. Yeah, really?

Yeah, she works for you?

Yeah, she works part-time. So she was, as I said, teaching. She, um, 6 years, amazing teacher, like loved it, but was just working super crazy hours. Yeah. We were trying to have a family and the whole thing just wasn't working really. So we had a, like, we were going on holiday to Cornwall, her and I, and I was like, I need to find a, I need someone to find me candidates. I'm starting to like, I've got too many clients, I can't manage this all by myself. I've got to find somebody who's going to do this. And she was like, oh, I could do that. Like kind of jokingly. Yeah, I could source candidates. I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And we just drove along. It's a 5-hour drive. So I'm like driving along and I'm like, oh no, you could actually do that. Yeah, no, you could. So we spent the rest of the journey talking about it, how it would work. Like, would you leave your job? Would you like— and she's a smart person, like running a team, et cetera. Like, it's just resourcing candidates. That's all I need you to do. She's like, yeah, I'd love it. Like, just love the mundane. Like, I just—

I couldn't think of anything worse, but some people just love that.

She's like, I just love it. I don't have any idea what to do. I was like, I just got to talk to people. That's all you gotta do. I can train you, just talk to people every day and we'll work together. So yeah, so when did that—

when was that conversation?

So that conversation was end of year 1.

Oh really?

Yeah, literally end of year 1.

So, so by that point you got a decent amount that you had, a decent amount of jobs on, and it really started.

Yeah, I could, I could see. So I'd got— I was enjoying it.

Yeah.

Um, and Again, I still wasn't like, I desperately want to grow and create a massive brand or anything. I was just like, well, we're growing, we're winning more clients, I need resource to, you know, to help these clients. So, so yeah.

So you think that's made the logical, next logical step?

Yeah. And also like that first hire, I was talking to somebody earlier about this today who set up their business with two other directors. And it's so much easier if there's three of you because you all got different strengths and skills, you can support each other. When it's just you, Um, that first hire is so important. Yeah, because an idea to go to hire somebody that you trust helps with the massively— yeah, massively. So you shouldn't be able to trust anyone. There's no one you can trust more than your wife. Yeah, hopefully.

Um, so, so ever since then she's supported your business?

Yeah. So awesome. So like 3 months later, she handed the notice in at work, um, we moved into an office. So we got an office in Ashford where we are, serviced office, literally like a 2-person office. Yeah, sat opposite each other. Um, I just felt like it was a good thing for us to do because otherwise we'd be working from home, living at home.

How do you separate it, like the home? Like, especially when you're working with your wife, right?

Yeah.

How do you separate? I was just having a comment. Yeah, I get— I would, I would want— definitely want to do that.

Yeah. And also, like, it felt in the mornings like we were both leaving to go to work, even though at the end we'd still be sat opposite each other.

Yeah. Um, yeah, you've left home to work. Yes, that's a good sort of set to have. It's like, right, okay, so this is our intention, this is why we're leaving. And when you get there, it's like, right, okay, this is what we need to do, rather than taking a nice little stroll in your shorts to the study and go, right, this is what we need to do. Yeah, I totally get that.

And I felt like I needed that as well by that point, because whilst I loved the first year, I was like, I, I could, I could get too comfortable in that environment. I needed to, I needed, I needed an office.

So, so you've got a shared office Yeah, she— so then, yeah, what then happened?

So I trained her up, um, got her sourcing candidates. Um, that was— I mean, she, she was— it's not difficult, right? So it's not difficult, but— and she was really good at it. Um, we almost killed each other a couple of times in the first— yeah, 3 or 4 months. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She— because I've got a certain way of doing things, and obviously I need her to work in a certain way.

Yeah.

And so— and she's kind of like the boss at home. So, so when I'm— so when I'm saying you need to do it this way, she, you know, she called me an asshole and a few other things. So yeah, can I say that?

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Okay.

Um, okay, so you got— so you, so you managed through that? We got through that.

And then honestly, after that, and all of our friends and everyone we know, like, no work.

How could you do that?

How can you work? And like, after literally like 2 arguments, all good, cracked on and, and had a good, really good second year.

Was it just you two then for that whole year?

Yeah, just us two.

What did you do second year then?

We doubled, so we did like one— more than doubled actually, we did 130. Really?

So awesome, just you two, smack on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, just like, just literally in the office again, but we still kept balance. We weren't like flogging ourselves.

Yeah, that seems like really important to you.

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. Yeah, it's, it's—

and did you— have you got children now?

Yeah, yeah, we've got one. Yeah, one daughter who's almost two, so yeah, yeah, so that's, that's all worked out as well. It's been amazing.

And has that also helped then, talking about balance and personal relationships, I mean, you Bringing your wife into the business, her supporting you. Yeah, that must have helped. Like, I've had my own experience with this where I'm, I, um, I'm in a relationship which she's a person I want to be with long term. And like, what I've had to get better at is communicating why I'm doing what I'm doing and sort of what the drivers are and these types of things, as opposed to what I've been sort of quite bad at in the past is just sort of expecting her to understand why I'm doing it and like I have to stay late sometimes and shit like that, you know what I mean? So I guess her being involved and understanding your world, yeah, how, how did that help then? You like, you know what I mean, there must have been an actual understanding there of like her understanding what you've got to do, the input sometimes that's required, do you know what I mean? And did that, that must have helped?

Yeah, massively, because most people you don't actually get to see, you know, your partner might do another job and you know that they could be really high-powered or really busy or whatever it is they're doing.

Yeah.

But you never actually get to see them doing it day to day. So as much as you can articulate the challenges or the highs, the lows, until you see them and live them and breathe them, then you get it. So yeah, it makes a big difference. It does make a big difference. And she now works 2 days a week.

Just sourcing still?

No, she doesn't do it. She does, she could do like easily, but she does finance, ops, accounting.

Amazing, the stuff that I'm assuming you don't want to do.

The stuff that I don't want to do that she's really good at.

—and she has an understanding of your business and the sort of day-to-day, which also must help.

Yeah, that's great. She gets it completely. So, yeah.

How do you think you managed to do those? What do you think are some of the biggest contributing factors for you to doing those numbers in year 2? Because it's not bad, that, right? Between you and your wife, £130K, not bad. Yeah. I mean, not bad, those sort of figures, you two, however much money you're taking out of the business or whatever, but £130K. Yeah. The life that you're living, the balance, all that, that's great, right? Yeah, absolutely. What do you think are some of the things that contributed to that? You actually had to spend more time teaching her to help you out, what sourcing is, blah blah blah. So could argue that you were spread a bit more thin than you was in, in year one, right? So what, what do you think contributed to that?

Yeah, there's quite a few things. One of the interesting things about hiring somebody with good working experience but no recruitment experience and bringing them into your business is, regardless of who they are, was, um, I learned quite a bit from my wife in terms of stuff that she did or approaches. She was like 'Why do you do that that way?' What she said, she questioned, she challenged a lot of the things which at first I hated, but then when I accepted it, I was like, 'So, so would it help to do this?' So like, maybe we could like structure, like, I don't know, like the calls that you do, or why are we working with that client? Like, so actually having somebody else saying, 'What are you doing that for?' He's got a complete open mind because she's had no— yeah, yeah, like literally no— yeah. And that was, that was really interesting, but I, um, what we worked through that, we worked, we were quite picky about the, the companies that we worked with, um, and making sure that they, they really understood what we were. So we were like, we're a two-person business. Yeah, we work, we didn't hide away from the fact that we're husband and wife. Yeah, um, and if you're, if you're looking to work with a big agency that's got like massive, you know, bandwidth in terms of then great, but that's not us. So we were really picky about the people that we worked with, um, and we were really— we, we invested so much time in building candidate relationships. So like the quality over quantity argument, we just like took it to the absolute extreme. So we, you know, candidate qualification calls, we would spend so much time. We'd go for drinks with them. We'd, um, because we were working on such a small pool of opportunity, really, you wanted to We just wanted to make sure that we nailed every single opportunity.

Yeah, absolutely. Out of interest, what, again, thinking of someone that's early on, smaller business, I think I've been this from my own experience, sort of saying no when it's your own business is a sort of interesting experience I've found personally, saying no to a client because you know it's not right, or being picky, as you said. Yeah. What became the sort of non-negotiables for you on this is a client we want to work with, out of interest? Like what did the client have to say or what were the things you were looking out for, for you to go, you know what, we're gonna obviously put resource to this job and this company, which makes me feel like there's a good chance we're gonna make some money out of it.

First and foremost, it was about that initial interaction. So at a basic level, did we get on? Yeah. Did I like the person? Did they, were they invested in what we were doing? I mean, from a, from a number, from a practical level, how many recruiters are they working with? Yeah. Do I believe I can fill the role? What kind of package are they paying? Is it competitive? What are their expectations in terms of what they can get for that? So that, yeah, that's some of those key criteria that most people will have. But more for me was, does this person want to meet? So I was like, we have to meet. So anybody who's like, oh yeah, I'll just give you the brief over the phone, I was like, no, no way. Unless you meet with me, I'm not working with you. Um, and, and do we get on? Like, do I walk away from that meeting thinking I can fill that role? And actually, because we worked with smaller businesses, I felt a bit more invested in that company as well. I want to fill that role as well.

Yeah, yeah, I like that. How— I'm sure you've heard this before, I've definitely heard it before— like, some, some people are quite sort of aren't willing to sort of really showcase how small they are at the early stages, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's interesting, that, because I think there's a lot of power in sort of really owning what you are and saying, look, this is who we are, this is what you're getting. If that's, if that's you and that's aligned with what you're about, then great, let's start working together. If it's not, that's cool. Yeah, like, how did you— was that quite empowering? Or like, you know, how did you actually find that sort of resonate with— because a lot of people might make this something, oh, I don't want to let them know that it's just me smashing out my study. Yeah. Or it's me and my wife. Yeah. A lot of people may be very reluctant to say, yeah, do you know what I mean? Because a lot of people sort of want to talk about where they're going to be rather than where they are now. It's interesting that. I personally would be like, I'd personally have just been, I'd rather be honest personally and just say, look, this is where we're at. And I think particularly when you, if you're a smaller business, you start working with smaller businesses, that's actually a competitive advantage that, look, I'm going through the similar things that you're going through. I understand some of the nuances of your world. We're a small business, we're growing. Do you know what I mean? I feel like that could actually become a bit of an advantage. But how did you actually find being transparent and how is that actually— how did that resonate with the market?

Yeah, I mean, at first I, at first I felt a bit uncomfortable about it actually. But then a big— then a big driver for me of— and still is— is about transparency. Yeah. About what we do, how we do it, the way we operate as a business. It's just so important to me. So quite quickly I kind of just, I guess, had a word with myself and just said no, like literally, like, go into these companies. And if someone says like, who else is in your business? My wife. Yeah, we went to client meetings together and in the back of my head I was thinking, this is so weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We placed a couple of— the first placement we did together, we went out for drinks with that candidate after, and the guy we placed, we're still in contact with now. And he was like, honestly, he said, I completely bought into you guys as a candidate because you really invested. And I love the fact So then I was like, well, we're not going to hide away from this. So yeah, there's no point in doing that. Don't. And since then we never have done.

So may feel a bit uncomfortable at the start, but own it. I think that's great.

Yeah, it depends on what environment you've come from as well, because I came from an environment where it was quite, to a certain extent, quite old school in approach in that we were suited and booted, like clean-shaven, black shoes, shirt, tie, kind of. Yeah. Meet all your candidates face to face, go through like a very structured process. Which worked at the time. But when I set up, I was like, I don't need to do that. I don't need to be like that. I've got enough experience. I back myself. I don't— client says to me, do you meet all of your candidates or do you do— I'm like, no, I don't. Like, if you want me to, I can. Yeah, but I don't need to. And I haven't got a massive resourcing team behind me. I've got me and Mrs.

Yeah, absolutely love that, mate. So before we go into year 3, year 4, all seems sort of quite positive, but obviously this sort of always honest on this podcast. So I guess, were there any sort of— so you'd spoken, spoken a bit about your relationship with your wife and how you got better at that and communicated these types of things, but any, any particular challenges that you had to really push for in those first 2 years? Or was it—

yeah, what challenges came up that, um, year 1, not really. Once, once you Once I got billing.

Yeah. Um, and built confidence and momentum.

Yeah, yeah, that was fine. Year 2, definitely a little bit more for us. Personal challenges was the fact that, yeah, we, um, cash flow and just monitoring that cash flow was, was even with a 2-person business, just making, making sure we manage that correctly because we obviously both of our incomes are directly linked to one business. It kind of had to work. Yeah. Um, because there was no other income coming from anywhere else. So, um, and we did like have like one mega month and then like one where we did like one deal. I think we did, we did, we built every month. But, um, yeah, just managing cash flow. Um, I also like working out, and this is still something I've not got quite right, but working out what to invest in and what not to invest in. Um, That's interesting. Like, yeah, from a tech, from a job board perspective, um, what tools to invest in.

Yeah, what tools.

And also, um, looking back, like, massively naive in terms of negotiating with those. So, um, with the tools that— yeah, with different, different providers. So I think that probably the challenge in year 2 is just naivety, really. Yeah. And also when you're at 2, thinking, okay, now we're at 2, like, when do we go like when, how does that work, what does that look like.

So final question on that then, I think you sort of start talking about there. If, if you were to start the process again, would you do anything differently? No.

Really? No, I wouldn't. Um, yeah, no, that's fair.

Oh, I—

because everything I set out to like get out of that process, yeah, I did. And that gave me the grounding to think, right, now we're just going to start to like crack on with this and see if we can take this a little bit of a— make this a bit of a bigger entity. Um, no, because everything, everything that happened I learned from, and I just— everything happens for a reason. So I just think, let's just live and learn. So year 3 and year 4 then.

So you're in, you're in end of year 4 now, or going into year 4?

Uh, we are, um, into year 4. Into year 4?

Yeah. So you're like well into year 4 now? Yeah. So year 3 then? Yep. That's interesting then. So is that when you obviously— so did— was there— did you and your wife look at each other and be like, right, okay, happy with what we did this year? Yeah. Learnings. Yeah. Experiences, blah blah blah. What, like, where should we take this? Was there a bit of a decision to be made of like, right, should we just keep it us two? Or yeah, like, what— how did you get to the point of deciding to hire more people or make it a larger entity, as you're just saying?

Well, um, So my wife fell pregnant.

Okay.

Hang on, I'm just gonna lose my resources.

Yeah, um, that was a driver then.

Yeah, that was a driver. Um, we got approached by a guy who we knew from, um, the local— from where we live, um, who was in recruitment working in legal recruitment in London. He just wanted a bit of advice around maybe not working in London anymore. Yeah, we met with him, we were like, actually you've got some good experience and maybe we— there could be an opportunity here. Yeah. Um, and he was like, well, yeah, actually that sounds really cool. Um, so we literally progressed and then hired him. Wow. Um, so that happened quite naturally. Yeah. So that was like 2 years ago. How did you—

how do you sell him that role, out of interest? Because like, me personally, do you know what I mean? How do you sell that? Because that is, again, thinking the questions that I get Yeah, a lot of people are like, particularly I know you're around the 5 mark now, but a lot of questions I get is around sort of I'm at the 5 mark, want to get to 10, 15, that's really difficult, 15 to 20, 30, that's really difficult. But the common challenge around that is, yeah, constantly having people that you can hire for your business, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just out of complete curiosity, like, what, how do you sell that opportunity?

Um, the His drivers were— I don't want to spend— so interestingly enough, his drivers were very similar to my drivers when I set up. Yeah, I don't want to spend the rest of my life commuting to London. Yeah, um, I like recruitment, I think I'm good at it, um, I'd love to be based nearer to home. Yeah, and where we live there aren't many good recruitment businesses. There's a lot of high street recruitment agencies, there's a couple of construction recruitment agencies, but there's nothing, um, which has the I say the quality and the focus of maybe a London agency, but based locally. Sure. Which was always a big intention for me. I was like, I want to make sure that we— our standards are so high, they're much higher than anybody else locally. So if we do employ people, they can feel like they're coming into a business that is like going to really look after people and genuinely help them build a career. So he knew both of us anyway, so, okay, that, that kind of helped. And again, we were just really open and honest and said, look, this is like, um, Ginny, my wife, she's going to be going like on maternity leave, and we don't really know what that's going to look like yet. But, um, I've got clients, you've got some experience, like we could definitely make this work. Um, at that point we were like, we want to, we want to start growing and hiring a few more people. Again, still wasn't like a rock-solid plan of, yeah, we want to scale.

Just knew that into it.

Like, I just Yeah, I just knew that I wouldn't be happy just working as like one or two of us. Yeah, I was like, I've got more drive. There's more— by that point I kind of got through that whole like post-London slump, if you like. Yeah, trying to like— and I was like, actually, no, no, there's a bit— there's a bit more fire here. Like, I need to— I want to do something and, and create something. And I think, um, so yeah, it wasn't— it wasn't— I don't think it was a difficult sell.

Fair enough. Yeah, you knew— you knew what his motivations were. They were actually very similar to you. Yeah, yeah. It's like, look, well, look we may not be able to offer you everything like right now in terms of what you've been used to, but this is what we definitely can offer you. And that obviously resonated. Yeah, okay, that's interesting. So, and then, so year 3 then, is that— did you then get a couple of other people in involved then, or was it the sort of going into this year now where you hired? So we hired Callum.

I just realized it was year 4.

We've come to the end of our year 4. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.

We're into year 5. Yeah. Um, So yeah, Callum joined, then Ginny went on maternity leave. There was just Callum and I. Yeah, literally both just doing 360 roles, which was working pretty fine. We then hired a junior consultant. We have the model for us is, is when you hire somebody, if they're inexperienced or have no experience, they come in as just a kind of resource, like a 180. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Um, and so we hired somebody in the end of, uh, 2018. Yeah. Um, who had some recruitment experience. Um, she unfortunately just— she didn't work out. Um, had some kind of, um, some health issues and stuff that just, yeah, just didn't work. And then we were kind of back to two. Yeah. Um, and then, and then Ginny came back, um, and working two days a week but in a non-resourcing role. And then last year we hired 2 more junior consultants.

Nice. And they're still there?

We had 2 in the summer. One of the 2 is still there. And then we hired another guy just before Christmas. Nice.

So awesome. Yeah. And then talk to me, talk and share a bit about, because obviously just from the context that I had before, maybe what's been the evolution of the sort of focus then and the sort of niche aspect? Because obviously you started in digital, right? Which is, as you've already shared with us, where you did cultivate and build some sort of relationships with some people. Yeah. How— and then obviously starting digital again, second year is still doing digital. Yep. And then how is it— how is that— how has that evolved?

So coming as the last 2 years, we started working with, um, through primarily my network and contacts, we started working with some smaller SaaS tech companies.

Yeah.

Um, and, and helping them hire and grow from scratch. Their, their sales team and their marketing team. Um, and so over the course of 2018, just started to work with a few more companies in that space. It's really interesting, like some really cool companies, different ideas. Um, they really loved the fact that we were a small company because we would invest a lot of time in them and give them probably a much— probably a lot more than maybe a bigger agency would in terms of service and time spent even helping them to write things like their job specs, etc. And then coming into last year, 2019, which we just kind of pivoted the business really and just were like, look, digital, this is very, very— there's a lot of big players in the digital recruitment space. Yeah, it's saturated. Yeah. And, and, and we didn't— we looked at our network and actually realized that we didn't have a strong network. I didn't have a strong network necessarily in digital, but I did have a strong network in SaaS and tech, which are just built through relationships and contacts and getting and placing real emphasis on building that network. So yeah, we started last year, we came into last year and just said, look, everything we do from now on is just going to be more and more focused towards this. Let's go for it in 2019 and start to— How has that had an impact? It's been great because it gives very clear focus internally around um, the kind of profiles of companies that we're going after.

And how helpful is that? Like, why is that helpful to have focus?

I think it's personally really helpful because now I feel that as we grow the business, I— it's very clear from the top down what our marketplace is and who we work with and why we work with them and why we add value to them. And so Because I'm so clear on that, people who come into the business immediately— Aligned with that. Are aligned with that and they believe in it and they enjoy it. Like, we— it's a really enjoyable space to work in. We come across lots of really interesting businesses and it's just evolved from that.

Did part of you think, oh, I could— I'm sort of turning my back on quite a bit of business here potentially?

Or yeah, but we looked at the— we looked at clients that we worked with who didn't fall into that category and realized that some of those bigger brands that we were recruiting for, we didn't have the best terms of business. Yeah, um, our conversion rate wasn't as good because their process wasn't as good. Loads of factors. And actually just walking, like, moving away from those and going into organizations where they didn't have any recruitment partners and you could create that, that partnership, that environment yourself from scratch. Was really liberating because there wasn't any of the hang-ups of like working on a PSL or— yeah, yeah, not being able to speak to the decision maker, which— yeah, we were speaking directly to the founders of businesses.

That's awesome. I just— because I think the reason I was asking that, I think a lot of people can be a bit worried about, oh, I might be missing out on a lot of stuff here and all these types of things. But I think that's a, a great exercise to actually do because you can very easily fall into the trap of just doing what you've always done, you know what I mean? So Whenever you do it, your end of year, whatever, I think that sounds like a really practical— it sounds simple, but if you haven't looked at the last year, what— how many businesses are you placed with? What are you— what— actually try and think about measuring the relationships with those businesses. What are the terms? What are those things? And then actually, like, well, actually, yeah, these businesses over here, when we work with them, that we actually have a better relation, these types of things, which then gives you— there's more data to back up why you should put all your eggs in that basket. Yeah. And I think I just think that's, that's such a valuable and practical exercise. But at the same time, I think the people that I speak to, like, just actually having a real niche and focus is so powerful. Yeah, because like on the, on the sort of face of it, you might think, yeah, I'm not sure there's enough here. But really, in reality, when you really know, it's the whole sort of, um, inch wide, mile deep thing, isn't it? And I think I'd say it's well overused and cliché, but James Osborne told me about it. Yeah, I think it's, it's obviously, it sounds really— it's just, I just think that there's so much power in that. So if you're thinking of what you should be focusing on, even as just working as a recruiter. Like, are you actually— do you need to be working on all those roles right now? Yeah, don't know. Yeah, could you just be working on 5 particular job titles or these sorts of things where you could become like the absolute expert and go-to person for that? Yeah, 100%. Actually own it. I think it's really powerful. And I've had quite a few recent conversations with people that start their own recruitment business, and typically in the— when they've been employed, they've done quite a variety, but and then they've actually really focused on like 2 or 3 particular specific skill sets, double down on that. And that's actually enabled them to focus when at the beginning can be like, fuck, what the hell do I— do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's really interesting that you've gone through that.

Yeah, I think that, um, I think that so many people in all industries, in recruitment, everyone's always looking forward, forward, forward, forward. What we're doing next month, next quarter, next year. Being more reflective over what you've done previously and being brutally honest about First of all, have I enjoyed working with those companies? Like, I, I, you got, you got, you enjoy it. Like, yeah, you're passionate, but you have to look. And, and just being able to, and also not being, not being afraid to pivot a business and change it, um, no matter what the company name is or what your marketing does, or it doesn't matter. Like, work on stuff and work with brands and work in a sector that you enjoy and that you believe there's great opportunity in and that you can add value in. And if that's different to what it was 2 years ago, then, then so be it.

Yeah, yeah. So how, how did this, how did this impact, um, revenue-wise, mate? Hiring? Because there can be some challenges there, right? You're talking about cash flow earlier, just you two managing that. Yeah. How did that sort of— see, you hired, you hired one person, hired another person, didn't quite work out, then obviously hired 2 people, one person stayed. Like, how, how was that, how is that sort of experience impacting revenue?

Yeah, it's definitely— I think hiring somebody and retaining that person. So Callum, our first hire, he's still with the business. Yeah. Um, investing in him and being— I don't think personally that if you— even if someone— unless someone's got a lot of experience, if they've got a little bit of recruitment experience or sales experience, in order for them to start billing numbers that really change your business is probably 2 years. I, I, I've said there are exceptions to that rule, but so, um, do you, do you typically, do you typically give them that sort of runway?

Is that typically your mindset when you're making a hire? Yeah, yeah, it is.

Yeah, really? Yeah. Which is a risky move, but, but I, I think that when you're hiring, if you hire on, on values as much as you do anything else. And people who have the right intentions and work ethic— can't speak— and energy. Yeah. Um, and they want to learn. And they— for me, I want somebody who comes in in the morning and just brings great energy day in, day out.

Especially at that sort of stage of your business.

Yeah, because it massively impacts on your environment. If it's one person who's just not bringing it, man, I couldn't agree with that. You've got to have that. And so if they're doing that, then I of course I care if they bill, but as long as they're developing and learning, then year one is— I'm not expecting to see a dramatic, like, uplift in revenue. Yeah, of course, if we do, it'd be great. But, um, I guess in answer to your question, what are we seeing? We're starting to see a positive impact in terms of revenue. Amazing. Um, but we'll— I still think we're probably 6 months away from seeing, like, the real sort of—

yeah, yeah. So But that's been your mindset though. That's interesting. Yeah. And then, and a big contributing factor for you sort of deciding, not sure actually. Obviously I've got the mentality of hiring this person, definitely going to be a year plus on, in terms of natural return, business-wise, whatever. But you're looking for energy, work ethic, volume, learning, asking the right questions. Yeah. And then I'm assuming, yeah, some of the, if you're not getting some of those things, you've got to sort of rely on your sort of kind of gut instincts and stuff, like, not sure if this was the right hire. Yeah, 100%.

I just— I, I— as long as someone's demonstrating the right, um, the right attributes and, and the right habits. Yeah. Uh, and they're, they're present, and when they're there, they're working, and they're engaged, and they're learning, and they're curious, and they're investing their own, you know, their own energy. And then that, to me, is— I, I think you can You can teach anyone how to do this job. Yeah. As long as they've got that desire to walk around and do it. Yeah, yeah. You don't have to be— we— I used to hire a lot on intellect.

Okay. Um, what, like, what, in terms of what they did at uni and that? Yeah.

Really? Why? I don't know. I'm a one-year dropout. I don't know. I, I was—

did you have some good experiences with people that had that sort of background?

Yeah, some good experiences as certifiers of hiring smart people. And there's no doubt if you can find someone who's a smart person who's also got all of those other attributes, then happy days, then they're probably going to be pretty good. But equally, there's a lot of really good people who don't have that and have like the right— all the other stuff, and actually they're going to be really successful. April Turner's one. So there we go, that's fair enough, mate.

So biggest, biggest— well, so what, what's obviously going into year 5 now? What, where are you revenue-wise? Year 4, end of year 4?

How did you do? So we did just short of 300. Nice.

And that's between— that was pretty much what, between like 3 or 4 of you?

Yeah, like 3 people really.

Yeah. Not bad, is it?

No, it's good. It needs— it's good for where we're at. Last year was a big year for us in terms of direction.

And yeah, I feel you do probably feel like you've really got this sort of foundation nucleus now. It's like, right, let's go, let's have a big year.

So our goals this year are a lot bigger. Yeah, um, yeah, we, um, we've got big growth goals. We want to hire 3 more people, uh, consultants. We also want to hire a marketing person as well. Really? Um, yeah, in, uh, in Q4.

So, and then what are you aiming for, like want to break the million mark this year? Yeah, from 300? I don't know, why not? 500? Yeah.

Okay, so I think we did another 200,000 this year with a team of— by the end of the year, be a team of 8. Yeah, then Next year we'll be set up to get towards— awesome— those kind of numbers.

Why do you— why— I mean, that typically a recruitment business owner investing in a permanent marketing employee, where's that motivation coming from?

Um, advice. Okay. Yeah, yeah, advice. Um, so yeah, we last year we became, uh, part of the recruitment network. Yeah. Um, and have really utilized that network a lot. Like, that was— that's helped us a lot in terms of formulating our strategy and our plan. It's also, um, given me a renewed focus and a real clear direction of where I want to go and take the business. Okay. Um, and also understanding what are those key and critical hires that are going to help us get there. Yeah. Um, and yeah, hiring, hiring a marketing person. I think there's only so many things that I can do in a day or a week. Um, and you can try and get somebody else in your business to do those things. So my wife did some marketing stuff for us for a bit, but she doesn't really enjoy it and it's not something that she's amazing at. So, and you can try and get your consultants to do their bits and pieces, which definitely helps. But I think that in this day and age in recruitment, you have to be producing lots and lots of really interesting, relevant content that is engaging and drives, um, yeah, interaction with your business. And actually, even at what will be an 8-person business, hiring somebody who might not be full-time, might be part-time, but hiring somebody who's going to be—

but you want someone that's got a dedicated focus resource on that experience and actually enjoys it.

Yeah, and, and has like a really interesting tone of voice. I don't want somebody who's a— I don't necessarily want somebody who's coming from recruitment. I want somebody who's come from something completely different really creative and just can come to our business and create stuff that is different and unique. Yeah.

Um, so yeah, hear a lot of recruitment business owners say that, but then when push comes to shove, they shit their pants when they come up with all different ideas.

Yeah, but have you seen my LinkedIn video? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

That was sort of part of obviously why I was interested to get your thoughts, because you're clearly someone that is willing to, to be vulnerable and, and yeah, may do things that may— people may have got, oh my God, what is he up to? Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

Quite a few people have said like, what are you doing dancing? Like, yeah, you're a 38-year-old man, like, dad dancing on a thing. And I'm like, but it— one, I genuinely find it, it's just fun. Yeah. Um, two, we get amazing response from it. We just get like really cool levels of engagement. Um, and candidates and clients, people talk about it. So Again, like going down that theory of not wanting to be too— like not trying to be something that you're not. Yeah, exactly. Um, you're about— that's kind of what we're about. And why not do stuff that is really, really different?

I like that. Biggest challenges over the last 2 years, would you say? Spoken about a lot of good things, learnings, folks in your business. Yeah. Uh, any, any key things that come to mind when I say year 4, year 3 challenges?

Uh, consistency of billing.

For you personally or just throughout?

Um, throughout actually. Yeah, personally and throughout. For me personally, um, managing the various— once you start to have like 2 other people you are managing. Yeah. And, um, do your own billing and do the other things that just seems to take up time running your own business. You get spread thin, so being able to get back to doing what primarily you enjoy doing, um, is challenging. And prioritizing that is, is sometimes hard. Yeah. Um, so what does a typical day look like for you?

Are you quite rigid?

Uh, yeah, I am. Yeah, yeah.

What does, what does a typical day plan look like for you? So get—

I get in at 7, 7:30, 7:45 most days. Um, I Uh, the first thing I do typically is just look at my, look at my diary, make sure that I'm planned, make sure I've got like space in my diary for various tasks. Yeah. So I'm quite, um, week to week I have certain things that I do the same time every single week. Yeah. Um, so it might be, um, I have like a sticky list of things that are just like longer term objectives, and every week I'll do one thing on that list and I do it.

You break it down.

Um, so yeah, I break it down, um, pretty specifically. So I like to get in before everyone just so I've got a bit of time to do that first 45 minutes before anyone gets in. I try and do as much client stuff as I can, especially at the moment because we just hired somebody who's just started and he needs a lot of training and support. Yeah. So it's doing that, then come in, then, then I'll work with one of the people in the team. So at the moment, junior person doing just resourcing, training, etc. But I'm quite methodical about— I get, I get really like annoyed if I don't, if I don't stick to a diary. Yeah, I'll just do—

oh yeah, I'm the same. I'm bad for that. I need to— yeah, I always— the most productive days I have is like hour slots, like focus on that.

And then, yeah, I totally get that. Yeah, I have to be organized. I, I get like Yeah, I just— I know that if I'm disorganized, I just don't end up in a smaller business.

Now I'm thinking of the business that I was in, 12-person business, sat directly next to owning the business. Still speak to him now a lot. And I think obviously when you're that sort of size, it is hard to— like, you will get pulled pillar to post. Like, Lloyd just had this chat, what do you think? What should I do? Like, you're the person obviously that all the time. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So it's like when you're— when you need to be methodical just because It's like, right, if I'm doing this because it's going to enable me to have the best possible output this day, how, how can you manage that when, like, do you know what I mean? It's like just me, you, 3 other people sitting in an office. Yeah. Hard to be like, look, I will help, but I need to just crack on with this. Like, do you know what I mean?

That's quite hard, right? Yeah. So I'm still learning that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I definitely am. Yeah. Um, what I started doing at the end of last year, and I've started doing into this year, is that I'll take myself out the office, and because we're in a serviced office, there's always spare office rooms. Yeah. So I'll give myself like an hour, try to do an hour a day out the office just by myself. Yeah. And I get so much done then that then when I come back into the office, if there's a load of questions, I can be like, yeah, let me answer all those questions now. Um, there's also the danger, I think, that you have if you're always there, people will always ask you the question, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So just taking yourself out of the situation, they might find out themselves or discuss it.

Like, I'm massive on the guy that we hired just before Christmas. I'm not the only one doing his training. I've got, um, Lucy in our team who's only been with us for 6 months. Yeah, she's doing some of his training. Awesome. I've got Callum doing some of his training just so that he gets a rounded— yeah, kind of— and, and perspective. Yeah, it doesn't all just come from me as well. It's like the same voice talking all the time at you. No, no one wants that.

No, it's just interesting to, to hear about that. So what I'd love to just, um, ask you is— so I've got, may or may not have seen it, have an event coming up, um, live podcast event, and it's all about cultivating resilience and going the distance in recruitment. So a couple of questions just focused on resilience I'd love to just get your thoughts on. Okay. And then, um, I can ask you what you're excited about and finish this episode. So, okay, first question: what does resilience in recruitment mean to you?

What does it mean to me? I think resilience in recruitment is, as a quality, is, is everything, actually. I think it is absolutely everything. We're talking about like attributes earlier. Yeah. Um, And what do I look for in those people that we hire? And what do— if you're not a resilient character in recruitment, you just won't make it. It's as simple as that. Yeah.

Um, how do you look out for that in people typically?

I think you have to— when, when interviewing, you have to understand what, what hardships have they gone through. Like, how— like, have they had like tough times in their life? And dig down into those. Um, if I think about some people that I've hired in the past who haven't worked out um, they were quite fortunate to live quite charmed lives where nothing had ever really gone wrong. Sure. And that everything had been kind of like quite plain sailing. And yeah, so they never had to deal with rejection or like massive stuff just going wrong. Yeah. So, um, but then if I look at those people, I think that in those first few months you can tell because stuff happens, right? Like in recruitment, it happens every single day. Um, and most people, the first time like a candidate doesn't show up for their final interview, or, um, you have a blowout or something happens, the first time that happens is, is shit for everyone. Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. But, um, I think, and you accept that, and you just— my advice always is when it happens is just, if— go home. Like, even if it's early, just go home because you're, you're clearly like just, you've had enough of today. Yeah. Go home, get annoyed about it, but when you come back in tomorrow, do not show an ounce of— new day. A new day. And, and if you can do that, then that, like, just like bare bones resilience, that, that's what it's about. It's about picking yourself up from— you learn most about people when, when they fail. Do they pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and just go again? Yeah. Um, or do they dwell on it? And if they dwell on it and they're the type of character that dwells on it, then you just— there's no— the recruitment is not for you.

I like that. Next question. How has the importance or need for resilience changed as the industry has evolved?

It's a good question.

Um, what comes to mind?

Well, it's interesting because I think the recruitment is— in my opinion and my perspective, that recruitment is an industry in terms of quality now compared to when I started I genuinely believe that the quality and the attention and the determination of recruitment founders to provide a quality service is much better than it was when I started. Yeah. So the reason that's important for resilience is the fact that when I started, we had a lot more— there was a lot more rejection that happened because I think that maybe the quality over quantity debate wasn't quite right within our business. There's not as much that goes wrong. So we, so we, so we put a lot of processes in place to ensure that we don't have to be as resilient or deal with failure as much as maybe we would have done in the past. That's interesting. Um, so I think, how has it changed? I think that, um, I do think generally, um, younger, the, the younger generation maybe and this is a very blanket statement, I know, um, but, um, being resilient is not something that's necessarily taught as a, as a quality. Like, it's not, it's not something that they think about or have to consider. Um, and certainly if you ask people who are much older than me who've been through much tougher times, you know, wars or whatever, like, the needs to go through hardship and going through hard times builds a resilience. But if you've always lived in an environment in a world which is really cozy, then Um, if you've not had to be exposed to much that's led you to be resilient, then how can you really, yeah, know what it means? Or how does that make sense? Um, so I think it's really— sometimes it's really hard actually to, to meet young people, and we do hire young people, and say to them, you know, like, what's gone wrong in your life? Because like, the chances are that not much really.

Like, yeah, you know, I'm 19, but it's also the, the fr— of having something go wrong is like petrifying, you know what I mean? In today's world where— because everything, the sort of perceptions, everything needs to be rosy and perfect, or everyone needs to see it as your life is perfect and going great, you know what I mean?

Yeah, there's definitely like less of a— yeah, like that, that feeling of like taking yourself out of your comfort zone and doing something that makes you feel vulnerable. Yeah, it's something that people more than ever hate. Yeah, and actually if you're building a career in recruitment, then you'll be— there's a lot of times where you'll be vulnerable. A lot, a lot. Yeah, from the start, especially at the beginning, where you're going to interview loads of people and you're going to try and sound like an expert and you're not. Yeah, you are experts. You're going to meet with clients. And if you think about every kind of step of the recruitment journey, um, there's— if you— you're going to feel vulnerable every single point. Yeah, you do. And everyone feels it. But you have to find the inner determination to do it. Yeah, and it's difficult if you haven't had to. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've never really thought about it that way, but it's— yeah, it is challenging.

So what, what can people do themselves to either— obviously maybe you're more experienced than others, but what, so what can— what are your thoughts on what can people do themselves to instill resilience in, in them? Or their teams?

I think you've got to— you've got to push people to do stuff that— what we just said, you've got to push people to do stuff that makes them feel vulnerable and puts it out there knowing that it won't always go to plan. Yeah.

And that actually made that crystal clear. Lloyd, you might have a shit day today. Yeah, like this may 100% go wrong.

Yeah, I want you to do this and there's no guarantee that it's going to be successful. It's going to make you feel really, really weird. Yeah. Um, and you're probably thinking I shouldn't do this. Um, and if it doesn't go— if it doesn't go to plan, like, you're gonna have to be able to just go, that's cool. Yeah, it's an experience, I've learned from it, I'm moving on from it.

Yeah, yeah.

I think you've got to push people to do it because otherwise you won't realize the potential. I think in, especially in the recruitment world now that we live in, yeah, um, networking, building relationships, putting yourself out there is more important than it has ever been, I believe. Yeah. Um, and you've, yeah, you've got to be a resilient character to, to get through that.

So just really sort of communicate that things can go wrong, you're going to experience setbacks, and just make sure that's, that's clear from from early on.

Yeah, but also help and coach people through that. Yeah, yeah. So understand, like, I'm massive, like, I ask in my team, how you feeling?

Yeah, good question. How are you feeling? You feeling okay?

Are you feeling good today? You sure? Are you okay? I think they get really annoyed with me asking it, but I think it's so important to understand how people's feeling. How does that— such a great question— how does that make you feel? I think that maybe, like, a lot— I don't know, like, for me it's really important because I want someone to feel good and enjoy what they're doing. But if you just focus on the numbers all the time and people are doing a load of stuff that they don't enjoy doing, it makes them feel crap. Um, and they're trying to be resilient, but they don't sometimes don't even understand why they're feeling that way.

Yeah, yeah. No, I absolutely love that, mate. I think in today's day and world as well, all I put my personal thing on that, all I did is like, I know, and you can't answer with busy. So if I ask you, how are you feeling? How you doing? You go, yeah, busy. It's like, okay, what the fuck do you mean? Like, yeah, yeah, that's not how you're feeling. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that that's the change Because typically it's like, yeah, how things are going, how are things going, how are you doing? Yeah, but how are you feeling is just a way— it's a slight change, it's a way more powerful question because it's like, no, no, like how are you actually feeling? Like are you feeling good, are you feeling positive? Or yeah, rather than the typical like, yeah, how are you doing, like how are you getting on today or whatever.

Yeah, I'm still not happy about what happened yesterday. Oh, okay. Yeah, you know what I mean?

That's such a great question. I just hate the res— it's just such a just easy to use word, busy. I just really don't like it. It's just so abused. I hate it. Just like, what, what do you mean? Okay, Lord, you're busy. Yeah, what do you mean? Like, give me some more context. I'm asking you a question here, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. It's very easy. But I think the danger of that also is like, it's very easy if you like— if something isn't right. Yeah, busy. I'm busy. Yeah, like, do you know what I mean? It's quite easy comfort blanket, just be like, yeah, I'm busy. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Because also people don't necessarily— not everyone likes answering that question.

Yeah, definitely not. How often do you get asked that? Yeah, yeah.

You feeling okay? Um, yeah.

So before I ask you the final question, what, what are you excited about, Lloyd? What's going on in your world? So obviously I know I sort of mentioned it loosely earlier, but decided you're gonna have a real focus on the sort of people that you've been serving and helping. But what, what are you excited about in 2020 and beyond for your recruitment business?

Um, immediately, what are we excited about? So excited about, um, renaming and rebranding the business. So Always exciting stuff like that. Yeah. Talent Digital doesn't truly reflect the nature of what we do now. The nature of what we do now is tech and SaaS and it's sales and marketing. So we're doing some work at the moment to try and come up with a name that really reflects what we do. I always like that. And then do some branding around that. We're going to do an event at the end of Q2, hopefully, which is in line with that, which will be a kind of like launch of our new brand, but also we're going to get a load of our clients who— and just people who want to come, you want to understand more about the startup scale-up community and the challenges and, and things that happen in that. So that's, that's a big focus for us. Um, hire more people. Um, and yeah, I just think get— probably not that we haven't been serious, but get really serious about our growth plans and, and, um, Yeah, just hopefully hire some amazing people. Yeah, it's amazing.

I think I've been meaning to just— I think that's amazing, man. I think what I love about your story, and I can't remember sort of where I read this or listened to it, but it just really resonated with me and where I'm at in my journey. I think it's evident with sort of yours is like, like where you start isn't where you finish. Yeah, I think that's so true. It's just so important to remember that, yeah, wherever you are like, and right now in your career, in your business journey, or whatever, like, where you start is not where you necessarily end up. Like, think again, to round that off, you started at home. Yeah, I want to work close to family. Yeah, Ashford, I'm in at home in my shorts, and like, now it's like, yeah, we're gonna have an event, we're gonna grow a business, do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like where you start, wherever you start, doesn't mean where you're gonna end up. And I just absolutely love that because that's— there's just so much, you know what I mean? I just think that's such a great thing to remember.

Yeah, like a massive buzz for me now is where we live in, in Ashford. There's a huge amount of development going on down there. We're really near to London, it's well connected, etc., etc. Like, big thing for me now is I want people to talk about us as an employer of choice, as in like, oh, you should go, you should go and work in that business because it's really cool. Yeah. Um, so yeah, love that.

Last question. Yeah, so you can answer this with a phrase, sentence, or word, whatever comes to mind. Yeah. The question is, if, if Lloyd could communicate to every single recruiter out there, business owner, they'd listen to your advice, they'd take on your advice, they'd implement it tomorrow, what would you say to the people?

Oh, that's a good question. Um, I would say, um, what would I say? I would say have a plan. Don't be scared to completely rip up that plan. Don't be too hard on yourself. Be realistic about what you actually can achieve and what you want to get out of what you're doing. And yeah, just, just I think intentions, like just be clear on what your intention is. And your intention doesn't have to be that you're going to grow a billion-dollar business. Your intention can be to just have a wonderful life.

And that's cool. Amazing. Lloyd, it's been a pleasure.

Thank you very much.