Martin Smith - Money is a by-product of your success in Recruitment.

It's the podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today, um, In a Bit Late with Martin Smith, who is the founder and MD of Talent Drive. Thank you for joining me, mate.

Thanks, nice to be here.

And, um, just to set the scene, we're in a place called 8 Club, which I recently signed up to, in one of their meeting rooms. And it's a bit fancy, isn't it?

It's very fancy, right?

I'm really happy.

What's on point?

Yeah, sparkling water. Um, yeah, I wanted to have somewhere where, one, I can do podcasts a bit more flexibly, um, and it's actually a bit of a nice place as well. Love the location. So really excited. So, um, Martin, where I always like to start, as you know, how did you end up in recruitment, my friend?

I've always wanted to be a recruiter. No, definitely not. No. Well, everyone— I think most people that are on this podcast, I'm sure, say a similar thing in terms of falling into it a little bit. Um, So yeah, I finished at university and Spanish I didn't know I wanted to do.

What did you do at uni?

I did sports science and English. Okay. So glorified going to a PE teacher, but that didn't happen. So yeah, I wanted to work in London. I knew there wasn't many jobs down in sleepy Poole where I'm from in Dorset. So I signed up to a load of rector ex and all sorts of different things.

Did you know they were rector ex?

I didn't at the time, no. I actually didn't at the time.

Everyone does, do they?

No one does, do they? They're like, you're a really nice person, and why do you keep talking about that? Yeah, and then I had all these different meetings and conversations with some real characters, to be honest with you. And then, um, lucky enough, landed a, a business in London that was kind of in sort of startup mode. It was a couple of years old, um, and I was, I think, the fourth person to join.

Really?

Wow. So it was quite new, um, and it was in obviously in procurement supply chain, which I'd never even heard the word procurement before.

Yeah.

So I was just like, what the hell's this?

Yeah.

Um, and then just sort of went from there really. But it was, it was quite cool because it was kind of blank piece of paper, there wasn't much of a database. Yeah, sort of go in and find your market.

What made you pick them?

I, I like the idea of like that startup feel. Not complete startup, but you know, a couple years experience, had some—

I mean, 4 people, mate, that's pretty— that's intense.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It was in a, it was in a real small, uh, office, um, just off Fleet Street. And it was, uh, like the, the, the lady I joined was fantastic. Like, she was a great, great, uh, MD. But it was, yeah, it was quite intense at times, you know, when it's going well.

Nowhere to hide.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, yeah. There's a— well, there's a small toilet down the hallway, but there wasn't much room in there to hide. So yeah. What did that grow to by the time Time I left, it probably got to about 18 to 20 people. So yeah, it scaled itself well. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, so just to, um, set the scene then. Yeah, so you have— so that was your first job in recruitment and you worked there, correct me if I'm wrong, circa 4 years?

Yeah, is that right?

Yeah, um, circa 4 years. And then you went internal? Yeah, yeah. And then you went back to agency? And then now, how long was that for again, the stint back?

Uh, about 4 and a half years.

4 and a half years. And then now you've set up on your own. And how many months you in?

Uh, just come up to 6 months.

6 months.

Start November, 6 months. Yeah.

Okay, so nearly a lot— obviously 9 years in agency. Yeah, nearly 10 years altogether. And then obviously stint internal as well, right?

Yeah.

Okay, that's interesting, mate.

Yeah, it's an interesting—

unpack this.

Yeah, it's an interesting pattern.

Okay, so first, first things first then. Have you, as— have you always done perm, contract mix, or mainly perm?

Yeah, a little bit in contracting more recently before I went on my own, but maybe predominantly. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.

So let's just think a bit about, obviously, early days in recruitment, right, before we move on. But obviously didn't have much of an idea as to what recruitment was. Got into, obviously, a business that was willing to grow, a bit of a startup. You had, obviously, direct access to the MD, the business owner. That's something that I really found valuable and something that I really was drawn to. So how were your first 12 months in recruitment? I'm always interested to ask people about that, if you remember.

Yeah, yeah, customer. Look, I mean, the first 3 months were tough. Um, like really tough. Um, I think I'd seen some people around me that used to talk about, oh, you get your first deal in the first like 4 to 8 weeks. That was like, seems to be the benchmark there. And week 10 and I still hadn't landed a fee, and I was just thinking, is this for me? Am I very good? I was living on my own in some little box flat in, in North London, and not a lot of my mates were in London at the time, so it got a little bit lonely at times. And, um, and the people that I was around me were more experienced recruiters, so they'd kind of been there, seen it, done it. So I was the sort of the graduate coming in. Um, so the first few months were really tough. Um, I managed to win some jobs early on, but I just couldn't seem to—

how did you go straight into BD?

Yeah, yeah, straight in BD, on the phones on my first day, first afternoon. I remember like, um, so I had this client I was calling, and I'd literally be calling the switchboard, and she was— my boss was like, now find out, uh, who their boss is, and find out who their boss is, and tell me and I literally called this company back about 12. But it was great, you know what, it was so, so good. Oh, 100%, throw in the deep end. And that's— that would always be my sort of advice to people, like, just throw in the deep end. Yeah, yeah, it's okay to muck up, so it's okay to fail. Um, I think that's a really important lesson that I learned because I think I've seen so many people I've trained and they, they want to make sure the first call is like a perfect call and have that perfect conversation, but it's not like that at all. So first few months are tough, then I landed my first, first fee after 3 months almost to the day being there, um, which was proper, you know, yeah, champagne, yeah, I can do this, or a warm pint down the road.

Yeah, completed it.

Yeah, exactly. Done. No, I'm doing that all good. And then the next few months were really good and had some traction, but then I had a lot like a, like a double dip, like a dip again. And, um, after about 6 months and I was kind of back to the same bit as, as kind of month 1, month 2, couldn't seem to find candidates, cancel, dropping out the process. I'm like, well, you know, why would you not go for the role? You can get sometimes very emotionally invested in a process.

Especially at the beginning.

Yeah, absolutely, because you're seeing—

take it personally.

Yeah, you really do. And I did, and I was sort of like, is it me, is it the job? So that was tough. But I think kind of got to like month 9, month 10, um, and I started getting a few sort of consistent months under my belt of making fees, and then it was going— yeah, it sort of clicked from there, really.

Okay, nice. So a quick one before we move on from that there, mate. I'll be really curious because it's probably something that you've really had to cultivate throughout your career now, but I guess, how did you— how did you— why did you continue? Or why did you dig deep? Because I'm sure in those early days you thought about quitting. Is this for me, right?

Yeah.

So what, what made you push on, would you say?

The people around me, really. I think the people around me, they were very supportive, and I think they, they very much kind of said to me, look, this, this is— we've all been there. Yeah, it's part of the process.

You didn't feel like, oh my God, if I don't— if I do that, I might lose my job?

No, no, my boss was good. She had, she had real patience. I think hopefully she saw some potential in me.

Yeah.

And, uh, and invest a time, a lot of effort, and a lot of it was on the job. It wasn't like pulling me off desk and going in a room and training. It was like, okay, just try that call again or do another call. And I think that's the real key thing. When you, you know, almost when you fall off your bike, get up again and ride. I know it's cliché, but yeah, I think it's so true.

And I think me looking back as well, and why my director continued to push me in the right directions, was I, I was willing to learn, if that makes sense. Like, obviously very easily you can slip into, I've done a deal, I know what I'm doing now.

Yeah.

But did you know what I mean? So I think, yeah, being willing to get back up, but and then having the humility to go, actually, yeah, I'm, I'm still very early on, still have loads to learn.

It's okay to make mistakes. Okay. And that's all part of the learning journey. And I think for me, as I say, I saw people around me that were being successful and I thought, I want a piece of that. Yeah, I'm naturally like a competitive guy. Yeah, I want to do well in sport or my personal life or whatever. And I just felt, well, no, I can't fail at this. I don't want to fail. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's—

that helped as well.

Yeah.

Okay. So then your time there, then what was the sort of route? Did you just continue billing? Did you manage anyone by the time you left, or what was the— just help me out there.

Yeah.

What was the sort of journey in that business?

So I think generally the business was if you, if you bill money, you then start having people to almost take them on that journey with you and then give them jobs and then they start billing and then you get more and more people, which I don't necessarily say there's no right or wrong with that, but just because you're a good biller doesn't always make you a manager.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, basically consultant, billed for about 18 months, then I had a, like, a junior resource that worked for me, and then another sort of 12 months, had another headcount come and join, and then I think I had about 7 people. Really?

Okay. So yeah, that's really interesting, mate. So then let's, let's unpack that a bit then. Yeah. And then did that follow the same suit when you left internal and went back agency? Did that sort of follow a similar—

speed wasn't the same, the growth wasn't the same because we were targeting more experienced hires in my last business. Okay. But the first business were kind organic growth, graduates upwards. Yeah.

All right, cool. So before we get into that then— yeah, that's really interesting. So firstly, mate, always like to ask, billings-wise, how did you get on, mate? Seemed like obviously you did all right if you only went that direction.

Yeah, year one I probably did— I was thinking about the way in this morning— I probably did about £120K year one. So it was all— it was all right.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, bear in mind that was kind of 9 months rather than 12. And then year 2, about £150K, and then kind of incrementally went up from there, really continued to go up.

Did you break the £200K mark?

Yeah, I did. That was French. That was— yeah.

Whoa, here he is!

Yeah, I managed to do that by end of year 3, which is cool. So that was—

that's amazing.

Yeah.

And then what was your best year then?

Um, just under 400.

Okay.

Didn't hit the 400 mark.

And was that in that place?

That was in that. Yeah.

Okay, mate, that's okay.

Cool.

That's interesting. So first thing then, let's just— let's just— because you just shared that, let's just talk a bit about your— you looking back now.

Yeah.

How do you think that you continue to go in that direction, if that makes sense, in this first sort of segment of your career? What do you think that was down to? A few key points that you— that come to mind as to how you got to that point.

So I think the first one might sound a bit strange, is I was quite selfish, which actually had an adverse effect on me.

That makes complete sense.

But then I was a crap boss. Yeah, yeah, crap boss. But I wasn't great because I was just like, no, I'm focused on my billing and me developing.

Yeah, yeah.

And although I was quite good at feeding my team, I perhaps didn't— and I know I didn't give them the attention they needed. And certainly when you're a graduate, and I've been there myself, and it's quite a lonely place. Yeah, I don't think I invested enough time. But yeah, you've got to be selfish. And, and when you say selfish, what do you mean by that? Selfish in terms of your time.

Okay.

Whether it's giving to other people, focusing on your own fees, making sure that they are always kind of on target. I think that's— that always should be your number one sort of focus, particularly when you're like a billing—

particularly when you're just billing it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So selfish is really selfish of your time. Yeah, really honed in on, on your Billings. And okay, anything else?

Some of the cliché ones, but like good work ethic. I mean, you know, no surprise if you're first in the door and last out the door, you're probably going to be one of the top billers in a company. I think generally that's good. Um, I think the main thing for me, my differentiator, and I'll probably talk about a few times, is being authentic. Okay, so authentic with everyone you're interacting, whether it's people around you, whether it's your, your candidates, your clients, whatever. I think people buy into that. They don't sort of— they can almost smell the sales bullshit that a lot recruiters kind of give. Um, so I think if you're authentic and a bit genuine with your candidates—

so when did you start realizing that though? Because I think that obviously that's quite good self-awareness to—

that wasn't the first job though, no. So my first job was essentially selfish, billa billa billa, make loads of money, let my team appear, some of them leave, you know. Yeah, that was the end of my sort of the first part of my sort of agency journey. But I think with the time, it's probably when I was in-house and I was a bit like, okay, I need to see the other side.

Yeah, okay, cool. All right, cool. So next thing then, before we move on to that, because I'd love to get your, your experience on the internal side, um, about the managing team thing, because there'll be, there'll be a lot of people listening that, um, are good billers or want to become managers or are managers right now and struggling. I mean, you hear all the time, I wasn't a billing manager, but you hear all the time that's one of the most difficult jobs in the recruitment agency, right? So knowing what you now know, yeah, looking back, you've already identified that you was very selfish and it was all about you and your time, which meant that your billings didn't dip. Which, which led to you not being a great manager, right? So how, how did you— how would you go back and change that now, do you think?

Yes, I think I would, um, empower them to make more decisions themselves. It's almost that whole self-coaching thing. So I think sometimes they would come to me with a problem and they already knew the solution, so you'd almost talk it through with them. And at the time I would just go, and do this, do this, and move on.

So just tell them the answer.

It was a tell approach. It was like, this is what you need to do. Go back to— yes, do it and it'll be fine. Like, just do it my way almost. And that's how I— that was my mentality. But I think reflecting back on that, I should have empowered them more to make the decisions themselves. And sure, and, and typically 9 times out of 10 they come to the same conclusion I would have anyway. Yeah, but actually, A, it's what you're being more efficient with the time, and B, they feel self-empowered that they've almost come and they're not relying on you. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Um, but I didn't do that until probably later down in my career.

And then, and then anything around— I think you I think it's a quite typical thing that people trip up on, is that you, you have the expectations of the people around you that you have yourself, which absolutely isn't— is that fair? Was that—

couldn't agree more. Yeah, I'm literally like, well, I've done it that way, so you should be able to do it that way.

And you approach it that way.

Yeah, that was my sort of style.

Did you— was you in charge of hiring for your team? Was you involved in that?

I was involved in the process. I mean, ultimately, my, my MD, it was her decision.

Yeah.

Um, but we, you know, we absolutely had our views and we were able to sort be part of that decision-making. But, um, I think for me, I always look at people, and I still do it today, it's likability. If I like someone—

yeah, because I want to say, what are the cool things that you look for?

I've got to like the person. If you like the person, you invest time in them, and if they invest time in them, they're likely to be more successful.

So how do you measure that though in an interview?

First 5 minutes. Yeah, it's a good point. First 5 minutes, can I bounce with them? Do I like them? Is there some smiles? Is there, you know, a bit of, bit of warm, bit of charisma, a bit of something about them, a bit of fire in their belly? Because As I say, it's long hours, it's lonely at times. Like, you've got to have a bit of something about you.

Yeah.

And, and listening to, you know, all the people that have been on your podcast today, they've all got something about them, they've all got character, they've all got fire in the belly. And, you know, I think for me that, that's the number one.

Can you cultivate that in some way?

Um, I think it's— no, I don't think so. I think you've liked me.

Yeah, personally, I mean, if you see that fire in the belly or whatever, like, yeah, can you cultivate that?

Yeah. I mean, there's been people, um, without mentioning names, that I've managed that Perhaps when I first met them, I've been a bit like, I see something in you. I wouldn't necessarily be the first person I go for a beer at the pub, but I see something in you. And I've, within reason, I've been able to sort of manage that, you know, how you communicate with clients, how you send emails to people, how you can come across in the office. I think to a degree you can, but yeah, people are people.

Before we move on then, just to help me out, so when, after you went internal, yeah, and agency, and even more now starting your own business, have you, um, have you had to obviously ultimately build up your market from scratch, or— yeah, pretty much. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let— we'll touch on that in a bit then, because that is— everyone wants to know about that, right? So you've done that when you obviously got in that role, uh, when you went agency again, and now obviously in your own business because the restricted covenant and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Why did you go internal?

I'd fallen out of love with agency.

What did you fall out of love with?

I, I was— I just thought that, and, and being honest with you, like, I just thought every, every agency was the same, really. It was just transactional. It got to the point where everyone was you know, organically growing graduates, hires, and stuff like that. And not knocking it, it's a good approach, but yeah, I think for me I just, I just fell out of love. I burnt myself out, to be honest with you. It wasn't necessarily my business's fault, I burnt myself out.

What do you mean by that?

Just, I've done so— like, I'd burn the candle at both ends, really, I used to say. Like, I'd just literally be— I'd be in the office like 8 o'clock in the morning, half 7, whatever. I'll be leaving at 7, 7:30 at night, really going for beers or like trying to socialize with clients. And I wouldn't be getting in until like half 10, 11. I was doing that almost every night. Awful.

When did you burn out? Um, was there a particular—

when I resigned. No, I mean, was there a moment?

Because I think that's— let's talk about that. I mean, obviously you said earlier that you listened to Ross's journey, and yeah, obviously he didn't talk about burnout. He had a real traumatic experience which had to do with— that led to obviously the catalyst of mental health, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. But being— I, I'll be honest, like, me starting my own business, also can relate. Like, I'm already aware of that. Like, it's just me it's just you at the moment, right? It's like, it's, it's so easy to say yes to stuff and get into a habit. Yeah, like, you've got to be— I'm already aware of like, well, no, I need to make sure that I have enough time with my girlfriend, I need to make sure I have enough time to exercise. Like, that's definitely been my biggest challenge already, like, 4 months in. Like, definitely in terms of health, going gym and stuff, that's definitely slacked because it's the— obviously pendulum has gone way towards business, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely.

So like, what— so like Was that just a constant buildup of you just having those habits and that routine?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I love my football. I play it, watch it, read about it, whatever. And, and I used to— I played for a team, and to honestly, that was a point where I kind of neglected that as well. Yeah, because I was doing such long hours, I wasn't able to go training, and then I wasn't playing.

All of a sudden, this cycle of life— yeah, it was so lent towards work.

Yeah, absolutely. And I just felt I couldn't really escape from it. And the problem is when you set a bar high— yeah, you, you, you kind of it's a double-edged sword because you want to keep continuing that and continue pushing because they're the hours you've done and you've almost set yourself an expectation in the office. Like, my boss kind of presumed that's what I was doing and, and it just gets to the point where, you know, your team expecting you to do those hours and you just got to the point where I was just like, I'm done with this, I need to— and I just thought the grass was greener and do in-house and, and almost get a bit—

was it literally just the moment where you're like, I'm done?

Yeah, I was, I was, I was at an event in London. I vividly remember where I was. It's Christmas and I was there. It was like a networking event thing. It was really cool, really good event. And, um, and I just got to evening and I just remember turning around somewhere, just like, I need to, I need to have a break or do something. And then, um, and that was it. And then I went internal and made the decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Which happens a lot, you see it a lot.

Yeah, yeah. And just to be clear on that before we move on to that, because I think it's interesting, like, what was you trying to escape from? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

What was you trying to get out of?

It was almost the pressure I'd almost put on myself.

Yeah.

By being in that environment.

That's, that's interesting.

It wasn't necessarily my, like, my boss, don't get me wrong. Like, she wasn't—

you made it, you chose to do that? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I guess you, you must have thought then at that point, if I'm going to stay in this, then it means that I have to put these outputs to get the— yeah, the returns that I want.

And in my head I was like, I can't do that.

Yeah, sustainable.

In my head, 25 years old, just, just got a mortgage as well. So putting that— yeah, that, that sort of chain around your neck as well, that pressure. And I just thought, no, I need to, I need to do something different. And actually, agency— sorry, in-house would give an opportunity to have more work-life balance. And my perception at the time was very much a 9-to-5 job, which, yeah, it turned out not to be.

But yeah, okay. No, thanks for sharing that, man. Yeah, that's really interesting. Okay, so how long was you in in-house recruitment for?

For just over a year.

And was it one of your clients?

Uh, yeah, uh, no, the first one was an old, uh, internal recruitment, uh, lady that went in-house.

Okay.

Um, and, or went to this new company, sorry. And, uh, and the other one, um, she was at— yeah, she was at Coca-Cola. She's doing Coke. So that was it. Okay.

So, and then you worked for Coca-Cola?

Yeah, I worked for Coca-Cola.

Yeah. Okay. So as an internal recruiter then, your role was to what?

Well, I initially went in there to run, uh, what's called group functions. So it's like HR, it, all the central stuff. But within a few months, um, the person was running the procurement supply chain had left the business. So guess what? The person that knew procurement supply chain background. So I got sort of put with pretty much everything apart from marketing that I was running.

So you had to fill all the vacancies and that.

Yeah, I had a team, I had a really good team that worked for me. I was really lucky.

How big was the team?

Uh, there's 3 of them.

Okay, cool.

So that they were really good. Um, and then someone came in, picked up the group functions, and I ran with procurement supply chain solely because it wasn't manageable doing obviously pretty much everything. So, um, yeah, I did that for 12 months.

So let's just go over the highlights of that. I'd love to know, obviously I feel like the majority of the people listening will be agency. Yeah. Um, How was it sitting in Coca-Cola's office, the business that you work for? You got your salary, but firstly, was there any incentive for you to fill these vacancies at all? Was there a bonus scheme?

No, nothing.

It was your base salary.

There was a yearly bonus, but that wasn't—

that wasn't how many people.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

So what was the actual experience? Tell us a bit about the experience. Like, what was it like being in the business that you worked for, blah blah blah? Like, what just— what was the sort of overall experience, would you say? How would you describe it?

Look, I met some amazing people. One, one thing I, I kind of learned there. I mean, learned so much there. But one thing I learned there is brand loyalty. Like, I saw so many people that are almost sort of man and boy or girl and woman, like, just been Coke people for years and years and years, just developed through the power of brand. Yeah, absolutely. They were there for the brand, they were there for the love of the job. And there was so many people like that that I learned so much from, and I've got a lot of respect for them.

Yeah, that's an interesting insight.

Yeah, but I think, I think in terms of— it's definitely not a 9-to-5 job, in case people think that. So you have to put the hours in. It's the same amount of graft and stuff, but I kind of describe it as you— and bear with you on this thought— but like, you're using your brain a lot when you're in-house. So when you're an agency recruiter, it's all around emotional intelligence, all around that body language, communication style, people buying into people. That's it, that's sales. When you're in-house, you're actually— that, that's not what it's about. It's much more around kind of strategic visions, setting up strategies, and, you know, what's your USP, what's your branding going to be when you go out to graduate fares, um, you know, what kind of talent attraction tools you're going to use to get people into the business. Yeah, it's much more geared around that.

That's interesting.

Um, and, and that's great.

How did that impact then the recruiting?

You didn't recruit as much. That was the challenge. Yeah. So my biggest sort of frustration was when you're an internal recruiter— not in all cases, but in my case— I was focusing so much of my time on almost having meetings about meetings, you know what I mean? Yeah. Having that sort of approach. And I— there was so many times where I would be literally sat in a room amazing stuff about, you know, graduate scheme strategy or whatever it may be. Um, but I wasn't doing— I wasn't going out there and recruiting the people. And I'm sitting there going, well, I've got 25 vacant— list of 25 vacancies, and all the hiring managers knocking on the door.

I was going to say, who was you then getting pressure from?

They walk past my desk. And that's, that's the biggest key. In an agency, you can hide behind—

yeah, yeah, yeah—

oh, it's gone, it's gone directly, or it's gone for another agency, or whatever. But when you're, when you're internal, they're there. You're accountable. You can't just go, oh well, another agency will fill it. You've got to fill the role because they're walking past your desk every day going, I haven't got any CVs, Martin, what's going on?

And how did it feel making placements but not getting a fee?

Yeah, that, that was the realization. And I, I must be tough, man. It is. It was tough. It was tough, particularly when I was doing the more senior end of supply chain and procurement, which obviously a big, you know, six-figure salary roles. It's really, really great people that are hard in there, and, and a lot of them are still there, which is awesome. But yeah, there was no monetary value from it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was, it was really tough. And that was— seems to have these like realization moments. But like, I was, I was up in the— they've got a site up in Morpeth.

Yeah.

Um, which is up in Newcastle. All right. So I'm from— my family from the Northeast.

All right. Okay.

And Morpeth is like a really sleepy part of, um, up in the north of England. And I remember hiring the new supply chain director, really like really charismatic, lovely lady, she was fantastic. And I remember I got on the train on the way back and I was working out what the fee would have been if I delivered it. And that was the moment. And that was my moment. I thought, I could have made all that. No. And I, I know that's when I knew this isn't for me. I can't— I shouldn't be calculating what—

yeah, you don't do it for that.

You don't do it for the money. Money's a byproduct when you're internal. Yeah, you're doing it for the passion of working for the brand.

Yeah.

And, and that wasn't my—

so quick one before we move on.

Yeah, yeah.

You said it a few times now and I like it. What Where's this sort of decision-making come from? Because like, I'm quite the same.

Yeah, yeah.

You seems like you've had like, you've got to a point, realize something, and then check, and then you're like, right, I'm taking action. Have you always been like that?

Yeah, if I realize something, it then kicks into my gut, and my gut says I've got a—

yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's been, I guess, thinking about, that's been my thought process about my career.

No, I can just really relate with that because that's definitely how I got to this point.

Yeah, really?

Yeah, 100%, just complete gut instinct and make a decision.

Yeah.

And just thinking, what's the worst that can happen?

Yeah.

But it was—

but, you know, with Coke, it was an amazing experience. The people there were fantastic. Learned a lot.

Yeah. So to round that up then, anyone listening right now, agency who's thinking, is the grass greener? There's businesses now where you can work for an agency and then 3 days you're on site, internal, have more impact on the talent strategy, all the— all these things now, which is really exciting, right? But from your experience, how would you What would people— what should people think about coming from agency side like you have, going into internal role? What should they be thinking about that you maybe didn't know before you got in there and now know, sort of thing?

So I think the variety.

Okay.

When you're an agency recruiter, obviously you've got more than one client, so you've got a variety.

Don't take that for granted.

No, absolutely don't take that for granted. Um, I think in— I think if you're— if money is one of your number one drivers, don't do internal. Yeah, you know, you get a solid salary, you get a higher basic salary likelihood than agency, but don't, don't do it for the monetary reasons. You're doing it to maybe go into a different career. Maybe you're interested in going into HR. That's a great avenue for a lot of internal recruiters to go down. Um, so I think if you're a very money-driven person, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You might—

you're more— there's a very good chance you're going to experience that moment where you're like, yeah, oh my God, the fee could have been—

yes, I've just hired like 10 $100K people into this business. Yeah, I would have made X amount of commission. Yeah. And I haven't got it.

If you're thinking of that when you're in that role, you're in unfavorable. Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, exactly. Okay, you're doing it the wrong reason.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so variety— if you're really driven by money, think twice about it. Really understand what you're getting in for, blah blah blah. Um, it is a good avenue to potentially get an HR or other avenues, and maybe it's the talent strategy that you want to get involved in, stuff like that. Is that fair? Anything else, or is that—

um, I, I think there's a, there's a preconception that they seem like the gatekeepers, and I think that's a really unfair— like, you hear some people say about, oh, they're like fail recruiters when they're in-house. Yeah, but again, that's a really unfair table. Some of the majority of the best recruiters— not, not all obviously, but majority of some of the best recruiters I've ever known have been like internal people. And also I think the other thing as well is sometimes people think, oh, the pace is different. Like agency pace is, is everything, right? But you can also work in lots— there's lots of clients I represent now where I'm working with their internal recruiter and they've got real pace.

So, um, okay, sorry, final thing actually before I forget.

Yeah, yeah.

How, how then was your experience of agency recruiters? That's obviously always interesting. I, I spoke to some ladies recently from Trapeze and asked them what's the typical thing that a recruitment, uh, recruitment consultant would just do wrong or just do to piss off the internal, do you know what I mean? Like, what, what— that must have been interesting. So what was the insight there now being on the other side of the fence and going, oh my God, like, this is bad, or do you know what I mean?

I've got quite a few LinkedIn messages from, uh, some of my competition agency going, oh shit, you're in-house. But, um, do you know what, and that was one of the things when I, when I was on that train thinking about, actually, is this for That was one of the things that was going through my head, because I must admit my experience when I was in-house of the agencies— some of the agencies, not all, sorry— some of the agencies I was partnering with weren't great. They were that very stereotypical throw CVs at the wall, see what can stick.

Really? It was that?

It was very transactional.

What does that mean? It was really that?

It was quite transactional. They would just, you know, I'd go on briefing calls, um, not all the time again, but go on briefing calls sometimes, um, and I knew that the hiring manager is looking for that pink elephant, you know, looks like it doesn't exist. 'Yes.' Um, and then the agencies will go, 'Yeah, yeah, that's fine.' And then there's— in the call I'm thinking, 'Guys, we're looking to pay peanuts for something that is— it's not realistic.' And I'd really empower them to kind of, you know, push back a little bit. I never did. So I think that whole consultative approach, which, you know, I'm a big champion of, I didn't really see that a lot. So again, I kind of thought I could do that better. And I know that sounds a bit arrogant, but I just thought, 'No, no, no, I can do something that I don't think a lot of the people could do.' What was your worst experience?

I don't have to name any names, but no, I definitely won't name names. What springs to mind? Like, what was the worst thing you're like, oh my God, is this actually real?

So they— so, oh my God, yeah, I, yeah, I can tell you a story. So, so there was a, um, so it was a procurement role, which obviously I wasn't— I didn't go out to agency because I like to think I kind of knew what I was doing. And, um, and they'd contacted me and I'd said thanks, like, but no thanks at the moment, keep in touch. Then they'd contacted the line manager.

Yeah.

Then they contacted his boss Yeah, then they'd contacted HR. Yeah, then they had sent a CV of someone that used to work at the business to them, to the hiring manager. So they despectively sent the CV of someone that worked at their business a few years ago. Then they cut— then I contact them saying, don't do that. And they said, I didn't send any emails. So I then had to forward the email to them saying, you did, and here's this, and also they used to work here. So it was just like, what are you doing? Just not the way. And that's— and you do take a lot of lesson from that. I'm quite lucky, I guess, in terms of a USP that because I've been in-house, I kind of get it. You've got to be, again, talk about authentic, but you've got to be a bit real with them because there's no point them saying thanks but no thanks and you just start spamming CVs because you're never going to get anywhere.

So to sum that up then, that's really interesting. What should a recruiter right now not do to piss off an internal recruiter? Like, what should they not be doing, you know, as a minimum? Like, what should they stay clear of?

Spamming CVs. Really?

That's the most common thing that people do?

Yeah, 100%. Because you're just, you're just like every other recruiter.

Yeah.

So I think it's trying to position another way. It's the whole active listening piece, which I always encourage my team to do, is actually listen to what they're saying. You know, I always, when I started out and stuff, always remember the internal recruiters or even the line managers say, call me in a week, and I'd literally dialize a call.

Yeah.

And 9:30, follow up. I know it sounds very basic, but literally, yeah, quite a few people said that, and then they hit a voicemail, and then, okay, when can I call you? Next Tuesday.

Yeah.

Just keep following it.

No, it's really interesting to say that because The ladies at Trapeze sort of say the same thing. And would you say then to people that are really— the internal recruiter is the key to everything. They said the line manager might really rate you, but they're like, sorry, like, you just have— this is our process, have to respect it. Would you really advise recruiters then to really keep gunning and getting that opportunity to speak to the internal recruiter rather than just keep trying to hit them with CVs, blah blah blah, but always try and drive towards that opportunity where they can build a bit of a relationship or they can speak to them rather than keep trying to hit them with relevant CV. Yeah, do you know what I mean?

I'll do— yeah, I'll do a two-prong attack. At the end of the day, the internal recruiter are going to be the gatekeepers. They're going to be the one that runs that, that contract, that PSL. So there's no point antagonizing them. Yeah, if you're relying on purely growing your business through working with internal recruiters, that's probably not going to give you as much fruition as— yeah, yeah, still engaging with, in my case, like the procurement directors or HR directors or whatever. So I think almost do it as a two-pronged attack, but respect the internal recruiters. And then come back to the line managers with something not just, here's a CV for you, it's a, you know, I'm doing a podcast series or a leadership event, or I've been just to get your thoughts on, on whatever. Yeah, just come into it a bit different because you've got to appreciate from an internal— speaking from an internal perspective, you know, every agency will come to you with CVs and throw stuff at you. So you've got to try and think about doing something different before you go at it. Yeah, everyone's just going to do the same thing.

No, I think a two-prong attack Makes sense, doesn't it? I think it's respect the process, respect everyone involved, and I think really focus on, yeah, delivering value, not just looking like anyone else. And I think really, if you, if you get that hiring manager to speak about you in the right way because you've followed up, you've spoken about industry things, you haven't just wasted their time, you haven't irritated them, and you've got that person then speaking internally highly of you, that's only going to benefit them internally. Do you know what I mean? That makes sense, doesn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

Cool. So then on the back of obviously your train journey, I said I'm going back agency, I want to make some more money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So okay, and then, and then you did that for 4, uh, how long?

4 and a half years. Yeah.

And then just frame up the journey, back into the same market.

Yep.

Um, and then, so then you joined as a consultant, I'm assuming?

Uh, no, I joined as a senior manager. So, um, the, the business was, was, was one, um, so the MD and owner of the organization.

So, um, yeah, they had a sister brand that did, um, HR recruitment.

And, and the lady around that was phenomenal recruiter, is a phenomenal recruiter. And, uh, yeah, so it was just, just the two of us, and, um, we kind of built it out from there. So brought in all my kind of relationships that I'd had, and, and, you know, dusting off the, the book from sort of a year or two ago, and, and developed from there and grew it. So, um, that was really interesting. Uh, we got to about 10 by the time I left, really. So from two of us, we have many in your Um, so I, I kind of managed— what, I managed 3 or 4 people of that.

Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. And then, and then did you some, uh, follow a similar path in terms of billing performance, or how did that go?

Yeah, um, yeah-ish. I sort of— yeah, year 1 was like steady because I was sort of growing a market that wasn't there.

Yeah.

Um, which had its challenges. But yeah, year 2, 3, and 4 were great.

It was really good.

Yeah, really happy with that.

Do more than 400?

No, no, I didn't, sadly.

Uh, okay.

Yeah, no, but yeah, it was good.

No, that's really interesting. So I think the key thing that I'd love to talk about there— and then, sorry, so then obviously then you left there to start your own business, obviously a few months in now. And then even in your business now, you've had to again build up— yeah, a business straight there, new clients. Clients, yeah, yeah, absolutely. How have you— okay, cool, let's talk about that. How have you typically done that then? If you've, if you've had to do that after the internal piece, you're doing that now you can talk about how you've done it now if you want, but how have you typically focused on building a desk, building a team? How have you— talk to me about that.

So I think a lot of it comes from the, the candidate, like, journey, essentially. So a lot of people that I now work with were people that, in, in procurement language, were like buyers, you know, back in 2009 when I started out. So I started on their journey then and I followed them through, because I think a lot of recruiters just look at a candidate as a commodity are they good for that role or not? And then, you know, yeah, exactly. So it's the long-term piece for me, which I think is really key. So if I look now at a lot of the, the clients that I work with and have worked with in the last few years, these are all people, majority of which, that, as I say, they were buyers, they were senior buyers, they just started out as hiring managers. And I always say to my team, the barometer of success isn't making the fee, it's that person will come to you as the first point of contact, either they're hiring or if they're looking.

And that's such a good thing to measure.

And that's the basis of what I measure success on. So I think for me, a lot of it was, as I say, really good candidates that I'd keep in touch with and network with and continue that relationship going. And that was the core of my kind of business development. And I still— you still have to do— I mean, certainly the last 6 months, like job spotting and yeah, chasing leads up and stuff like that. But it's, it's building that relationship with candidates and, and trying to find a solution to what they're doing.

And was you aware that you was doing this early on? Do you know what I mean?

No, I wasn't. No.

So when did you really double down on that?

I think it was probably when— yeah, it was probably about 2, 3 years in when I won a really big contract, um, with, with a retail business.

Yeah.

And, uh, got all that, all the jobs. It was amazing. And it was purely from like hiring like a, a 40K sort of senior buyer into their business. So, and they were like, brilliant, you can do that, you can do everything. And I was like, why?

You know that so well?

Well, because the internal recruitment was like, we got feedback from the candidate about the experience and it was great and da da da, and we haven't had that before. And even like really basic things like I met all my candidates. So like the other agencies just never met their candidates and you did that and you took him for coffee and you ran him through the recruiting process and you were there at the end of the phone. It sounds really simple, people listening is going, that's obvious, but not— you may know how many people don't do it. And that was a differentiator and that allowed me to build it. And then I kind of self-reflecting and probably another train journey and realized that actually kind of, candid is king. And that's, that's the way I'm going to develop a business, and that's what I've continued to do.

So anyone listening right now, how can they start— how can they start approaching it this way? Do you know what I mean? Because there's a lot of impatient people out there. Yeah, they've got their managers going, I need you to get on the phone more, I need you to win more clients, blah blah blah. Yeah, but how can, how can they start cultivating this? Because clearly where you are now, starting your own business, it's clearly paid off for you. But how did you go about making sure that you, your team made sure that the candidate experience was on point and, and started to really double down and cultivate that, you know what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely. Meet your candidates. That's definitely the first thing where possible. I appreciate for those listening that have got international markets and they're based in, in London, wherever they can be— yeah, yeah, have that, have that FaceTime with them, you know, whether it's, as you say, over video or face to face. Like, meet your candidates. And I, I used to say to my team, find your top 10, top 10 candidates that you're currently working with that realistically are going to make the business money, you know, people that are going to— your clients are going to be interested in, and obsess over them, relate to them, find ways to support them. As I say, it's not just about the transaction, about the recruitment. Is there a networking event? You know, even when I first started, I always remember when I first started in my last business, I actually sent a link to a job I didn't even have on to a senior guy, and he got the job. So I didn't make the fee, but because I'd given him that Why did you do that? Because I'm long-term game. And now we— and then he became one of my, my biggest customers because I'd given him that tip.

It's mad.

So I hadn't won, I hadn't made the, you know, the 15 grand fee, whatever it was, 18 grand fee. I'd supported in that sort of indirectly, and he really respects me for doing that. Again, it's about being different, and I think that's the real key thing for me.

Did you have challenges like that story, for example? Like, did you have challenges internally approaching it that way?

No, not at all. My last business were amazing at that. And actually, that was one of my big learns. If I look at my first business I worked for and the last business. My last MD would really empower me to do that. He used to talk about being authentic, which is what I said earlier, and be a bit genuine with people. Don't just think about the fee, think about the big picture. And that was a real, real big learn.

It's just interesting that, because I'm just thinking like, people listening, if they told their manager that, they'd be like, mate, what are you doing?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

But then there's that— there's got to be that internal selling piece, isn't it? Like, well, hang on a minute, this is what I'm— I am serious about building a long-term recruitment desk I do want to achieve that go-to person, go-to. And that does involve paying forward, and it does involve doing it like being genuine, authentic, you know what I mean?

It's a lot, it's a long— yeah, you're so right. It's a long-term vision of it. Like, ultimately you can transact, you know, find a candidate, place in a job, that's no— but if you want to be a little bit strategic, a bit more innovative, and a bit more authentic about it, yeah, that's the way to do it. It's actually, I haven't got this job on, but I've seen this job in wherever, would you be interested? Yeah, they're going to be like, Jesus, this guy's like, that's really, that's nice, that's genuine.

Yeah.

And that really, that really gets people to, to draw to you. And that's why you know, you get that repeat business back, and, and that's how you build a desk. And then they refer you to friends, and the word of mouth, right? It doesn't matter what sales environment you're in.

No, that's powerful.

It's so powerful. And that's, that's how I managed to build the market, because they would go, you need to talk to Martin Smith, like, you talk to their business, and, and it just sort of snowball effect from there, because senior people interact with senior people.

And then especially at a senior level.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, so before, before we go on to, um, you starting your own business and, and that, that journey so far, authentic, right? You said it quite a few times. What does that actually mean?

Genuine, real, uh, real with people, honest, you know, transparent, being yourself. That's it. Like, for me, I don't know, I, I've seen it in businesses where people have tried to be someone else. And the best— it's one of the best bits of advice I ever got was in the first business, and, uh, one of the senior people came out to me and said, don't try and be, you know, that person or that person. Pick bits from different people that you like and then create your own identity. And that's so important. So I think for me, being authentic with people, just you get better engagement, I think. So just be real, be honest with them. If you haven't got any jobs for them, I haven't got any jobs. Don't say you're going to call them a week because the likelihood is you can't find the job for them. Or if they're right in the center of, of the location that you recruit in, and tell them you'll call them in a week's time. Tell them you work with X, Y, and Z clients. Tell them that they're not hiring at the moment, but they might hire in 2 months Set the expectation, the candidate, and again, they'll, they'll value that.

How did you start getting your team then? And how did you start getting your team to be more authentic?

So I think, I think it came down to being realistic with them on the phone and managing expectations. Um, I think it's, as I say, it's a case of, you know, you get a good candidate in your location, tell them you've got some potential really good jobs for them. Or if they're, you know, recruiting in from Qatar and you're not hiring out, you know, you're not going to be able to fill the roles. Or support them with recruitment. So I think that's the first thing. As I say, go meet them, go and understand their needs, um, and just, just try and relate to them, like find some commonalities, because in the day it's people dealing with people. Yeah. And I've heard it a few times on the podcast, like recruitment isn't rocket science, it's about interacting with people. People buy into people, and I think that's, that's what you do.

Okay. Have you always wanted to start your own business?

It's always been the back of my head, it's always been an itch. I think for me.

Um, and how many months you in now?

Uh, so just come up to 6 months. Okay, November. So I— yeah, it was something that I'd always thought of doing but probably been a bit scared to do.

And then why was you scared?

The risk, you know, it's your head, it's, you know, it's— I guess it's everything you're generating. It's, it's, it's, it's to keep you going.

It's you on your own right now?

And it's just me on my own right now.

How have you found it being on your own?

Lonely. Yeah, great to talk to someone. No, it's not—

honestly, yeah. I mean, yeah, I, I, my clients now, I'll be honest, probably like a third of the people are one-man bands and wanting to grow their business. And I've said it a few times, but there's quite a few stats out there to back up the 80% of the recruitment industry employ under 10 staff, right? So how, how have you actually found that being on your own? You know what I mean? So have you worked— so you work from home, you tell me?

Yeah, work at home, and then there's an office share I do quite close to where I live. Yeah.

So yeah, so how have you found those 6 months being on your own?

So yeah, um, so I think it's about self-motivation. I think you just got to try and surround yourself with good people. Okay, they don't have to be directly recruiters, just good people. And that's family and that's friends, bouncing ideas off people. Because when you, you know, when you want to celebrate success, it's important to bounce that. And similarly, when you're having a rubbish day and you're struggling, you need to bounce that off. So I think, I think self-motivation is the biggest thing to try and get over when you're starting your own.

Because like, yeah, there's— I mean, you're not answering to anyone.

Yeah, you're not answering anyone, which gives you freedom, but also that lack of accountability is quite strange at times.

Yeah. So I think, how do you self-motivate yourself then?

So I, I get to little benchmarks in the day, and this is— this is— I've got this like whiteboard at home, and I'll be like, right, okay, if I can make X amount of calls this morning, yeah, I'll make myself a nice coffee, and then that'll be like a 10-minute break. I always reward myself for the little things that I kind of do in the day, and I've had a good conversation, so I'm like, cool. And, um, yeah, it was really weird when I got my first, like, fee in on my own. It was just me and I sat at home and the girlfriend was at work and whatever, and I was just like, yeah, that's awesome. So I literally, I called my dad and I was like, Dad, I got this thing. And he's like, yeah, I don't care, I'm in the garden, whatever. I was like, okay, cool, come on, yeah. And, and that was it. And then, to be fair, he did say, like, well done. But yeah, no, so, um, and then, yeah, then I sort of bounced ideas from people and I quickly got involved in some, like, peer-to-peer group groups, some recruitment kind of networking things I found really valuable. Um, so there's a— what, there's one local to me called Evolve. Um, and there's also Recruitment Leaders in London— Elite Leaders, sorry, in London.

So what does that actually involve, just for people? Because I, I, yeah, I recommend this to quite a few people. Yeah, just because I've been to a few different ones. Um, and yeah, I think especially for people like you, it's a great opportunity to meet other people. And so like, how was that? Why has that been a benefit to you?

Just so like peer-to-peer groups, like bouncing ideas from people and almost sense checking. I'm thinking about doing this. Yeah, am I crazy or is that a good idea? And just almost having that litmus test of, that sounds good, Martin, or no, that's ridiculous, don't do that. But I think I really value that. And, and I've— do you know what, when you start on your own, you really show— there's people really come out of the woodwork that have shown real generosity to me that have actually been competitors of mine before. And I've been on agency—

people have been really willing to help.

Yeah, absolutely. How can I help? And like, good for you, start your own, all that. Like, I've been really—

to be fair, I, I've probably experienced experience the same. Have you? Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, I think particularly on, um, LinkedIn, like, I think it's such a unique platform that generally people are willing to help. Yeah, well, that's like no BS. Like, yeah, if you like, if you went on tomorrow and put a post that my girlfriend is in this position right now but wants to do this and needs help, like, you're gonna get help. Yeah, even if that's like— it's just, I think it's such a unique place for people that are willing to do that, which I think is really cool about it.

Yeah.

What's been the biggest challenge for you?

Um, probably the self-motivation. I, I've, as I said, I've countered it within reason with like networking groups, but I think there's still days, say, when the summer and like England cricket on, or there's football on or whatever, and it's the temptation just to sit outside and enjoy that. Um, so I think self-motivation has been the biggest challenge when it's just me. Um, and appreciating the people I'm calling have got day jobs and other things to worry about.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, so what, have you got mentors or have you got anyone holding you accountable?

Yeah, yeah, so I've been quite fortunate, a couple of people that kind of mentor me, and, and again, I sort of bounce ideas.

And what's that done for you?

I think it's just given me the belief, really. I know that might sound a bit cheesy, but it's given me the belief that I actually do know what I'm doing and I can do that. And they've been in that situation as well. But like what I was saying earlier, when you, when you start out and you're, you're kind of picking up ideas and experience from other people that say, I've been there, and it's the same when you run your own business, I think having that that reassurance from people saying, look, I've been there, I've been days where I'm like, need to get that fee in because I need, you know, the mortgage being paid and whatever. Like, yeah, I've been there. And I think that really allows you to do it. And, and obviously once you start getting fees in, it snowballs. And then every time I've managed to deliver something, I've had more confidence and gone, okay, I can do something. Yeah, because I've been, you know, I've been recruiting the same discipline for nearly 10 years. Like, I know how to recruit people, but it's very different when you're running your own business.

And how long did it take you to get that first Well, um, do you know, I actually was really lucky.

I had— I won a retained assignment, really, and managed to deliver that, uh, in within sort of the first 3 or 4 weeks.

How much retained did you do?

Uh, it was like a $25K retained, so it just kept me like breathing.

Yeah, that's decent. But how much retained did you do as a business?

That was the only— that was anything.

Oh really?

The rest, it was contingent. Yeah. So I thought, hey, this is great, everything I'm going to work on.

Did you pitch that purposely?

Yeah, I pitched it purposely.

Talk to me.

I, I'd known them years ago. I hadn't dealt with them recently. I'd known them years ago, and it was just really time and that they'd gone into a new business. And, um, and I just thought, what was the pitch?

Like, why, why would they get— why would they pay retained rather than contingent?

Well, that they didn't have an internal recruiter. Okay, to say no, that's crazy.

Yeah, of course, of course.

Um, so they're quite an immature function, which I think sometimes can allow you to, to nail the retainers a little bit more. Um, and I just said, look, I, I played more like, I'm going to simplify the process, I'm going to help you write the job specs, I'll come onto site and I'll run the assessment with you. Like, and they're like, yeah, awesome, we've only got one HR manager. I was like, that'd be great.

So you pitched it as a dedicated resource?

Dedicated resource, obsess over your brand, push all the stuff out on my own advertising boards. I'll do all the legwork for you and you just pay in a lump sum. And, and that, that was really, really great. Yeah, that's great. That kept me— that sort of got me going.

First 4 weeks?

Yeah.

Cheers.

Yeah, thanks. It's not bad. Well, it was really good timing as well that they just, as I say, joined this new— yeah.

And obviously, um, obviously you have restrictive covenants. Yeah. Like, you've already had to focus on new prospects and new clients.

Yeah.

And then how would— how have you approached that then? Has it been some of the things that you spoke about in terms of trying to leverage your existing relationships?

And well, that's been challenging because I haven't been able to talk to existing ex-relationships from Client Allcanda. So for me, it's been like, actually, it's been quite fun though. I was talking to someone about yesterday, like, it's actually quite fun for me just to literally go out old school recruitment, like, go on the job boards, go and understand, like, you know, I've seen that job now kicking around LinkedIn for 2 months, like, can I help you? And to be honest with you, I've feeding off the dregs a few times with a few things just to try and get some traction. But that's what you've got to do when you—

So what have you been proactive with? Like, what would you say has been the best sort of route to market for you over the last 6 months? Because there'll be a lot of people listening that might have just started out, thinking about starting out, but thinking, what can I do in those 6 months coming up that doesn't involve spending a lot of cash?

So I kind of checked— yeah, so I kind of put it, turn it on its head a little bit because 99% of people are going to— I'm Martin Smith, I'm a specialist procurement supply chain recruiter, blah blah blah, I can offer you this, this. They're going to get from every recruiter. So I've almost come to them saying, can I find you a solution? So what solution can I offer you? Um, and, and, you know, actually these are people that can maybe save you money because that's what the division that I do, procurement, that's what they're all about. So almost positioning it in a slightly different way, I think that was quite good.

Or with a candidate, or with a candidate. Yeah, so you focus on getting a candidate, focus on the candidate, market that.

Absolutely. Yeah, so again, candidates king. And I would generate some, some candidates, some new candidates in talk to them about the marketplace, and then offer them as a solution to jobs that I had out there. But it was a numbers game. Like, the last 6 months for me has been a numbers game. There's nothing— don't get me wrong, there's been nothing particularly strategic or enough.

She's been trying to make—

just been trying to make, make stuff happen, like churn it out, like get as many sort of good talent that you're working with out there to, to clients that you can see are trying to hire. And then it's a numbers game. And then I've had a few that have gone, yeah, cool, actually we're struggling, or— and then I've sort of managed to jump on that and deliver, which has, which has been really good. It's been fun, it's been back to when I was 21 again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Okay, and, um, um, what was I gonna say? So what's the— and then is it something that you're looking to, to grow, or—

yeah, yeah, definitely. Like, for me, I didn't set up Talent Drive to be a lifestyle business.

Um, did you know that from day one? Yeah, fair enough.

Yeah, I think if I, if I was gonna do a lifestyle business, I probably would have carried on, on the same route I was doing for another, I don't 5 or 10 years and let that sort of ride, and then just done it as a lifestyle with, you know, maybe, I don't know, family, kids, whatever. Um, but yeah, for me, as soon as I knew I was going to do it, I wanted to have something that was going to grow quickly and I could sort of try and, try and get to what I wanted to do.

So, okay.

How have—

since starting your own business, I'm always curious about this. I think it's interesting, like, how, how has it been? How have the relationships around you been? If that makes sense. From a new challenge, right?

Yeah.

Well, from, from like, just for like in general, like friends, relationships, like, because again, that's something that people seriously have to think about, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

But I've, I've had mine— I mean, I'm 4 months in and I've had my own sort of journey with it.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

So I'd love, I'd love to hear a bit about that.

Like, so I think from a friend's point of view, they've got like, I don't know, Wolf of Wall Street images, the Capros spraying money around the room and like, yeah, you're your own boss.

Really?

You can bring who you want in and sack who you want and whatever. And it's just like, no, obviously that's not how it works. But, um, so that's been quite fun.

So any of your friends business owners?

Uh, I've got one friend that's a business owner. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Obviously myself a bit.

And obviously, yeah, yeah. Um, so, so yeah, so he, he gave me some— he gave me some good advice, but he said just don't, don't run too quickly. Like, yeah, make sure you do it in a measured way and stuff like that, which, which again was, was really helpful because he runs his own, um, manufacturing company. So So that, that was quite unique to kind of understand that perspective away from recruitment.

Yeah.

Um, but again, you know, it's bouncing ideas off a couple of recruitment owners that were local to me that again gave me—

reached out. Did you reach out? Do you know them?

Um, I reached out to both. Yeah, I reached— so one was my direct competitor.

Um, really?

I've done a lot of— yeah, a lot of agency calls with and stuff. And, and actually he's one of the people that empowered me to go out and do it.

He's like— so how did you— that's really interesting. How, how did you approach that? Was it literally simple, dropped a LinkedIn message and say, look, Well, we met a few months before when I was thinking about doing it.

Okay, another conversation.

But did you reach out before, at that point?

Yeah, I reached at that point, and then, and then I said I was doing it. I reached out to again, and we— and he was great, and he grabbed the coffee and we had a chat. And, and again, that you really— I was really sort of struck with the kind of the generosity of his time because he didn't have to do that. And you know, I'm a competitor, and I've been a competitor for 15 years.

Anyone listening, like, if you think, like, reach, reach out.

Oh, I couldn't agree. Yeah, that, that's absolutely right. What have you got to lose if you're thinking about doing it, you know, if you're a recruiter, wherever you're specializing in, and you know, you also, you should know your competition, and think about setting up your own. Like, reach out to them, have some conversations, because yeah, you'll be surprised how many people will be happy to invest a bit of time to give you that. I was like, are you sure? Like, I'm gonna like go after stuff that you're saying. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you know, go and do it. Like, go and— yeah, I've loved it. So, so yeah, I think friends definitely just thought, yeah, make it rain, have fun, like what you want to do. Um, and I think actually I, I did bounce off of a couple of sort of and people I know as well and think, what do you think about if I did this? And they were like, yeah, go and do it. So just bouncing off a few people, um, and the girlfriend just said, as long as the mortgage is covered, then, then we're okay.

Obviously. And then has that— has there been any challenges there in terms of, like, obviously you said, you said earlier about being burned out, stuff like that, because now it's like it's just on your shoulders, there's even more pressure, right? So how have you found that?

Do you know what, I've, I've dedicated now set times in the day where I'll make sure I'll go to the gym And you talk about that, you know, with a mental—

what is that really help?

Yeah, massively helps your mental well-being.

Like, it's so true, like, all linked, isn't it?

You know, healthy mind helps.

So what would you block out? Every lunchtime?

Yeah, lunchtime every day where I can. Um, and, and actually Friday afternoons I typically finish slightly early and then I go for a swim and, and go for a jog or do something like that.

Um, so has making sure that you blocked out exercise has really helped?

Literally, you know, in my diary, in the, you know It's 1 hour, it's there every single day. Yeah, you're gonna go and do that, that's it. And if clients say, can you speak between that time, I just say I'll call you after when I'm back. And it's been so helpful because it just allows me to—

and that's non-negotiable. Like, I like that you just said that.

You've got to be disciplined because that was the temptation is, oh, I'll give you a quick call and then, all right, I'll do that and then I'll do that.

And I'm, I'm prone to that, really. I need to be better at that because like, yeah, I can block in my diary. I like to just get gym done in the morning. Yeah, it's done. But yeah, like, but if I block something out, I'm very— I'm more prone to go, yeah, I'll call you then, or whatever. But yeah, you do need to be more disciplined, don't you? Say, well, no.

Well, that's the thing. And you know, first thing in the morning, like before work starts, that's a real key time to do those headhunt calls. Yeah, talk to clients when they're traveling into work. You tend to get a lot more traction there. So I've almost utilized that time for doing my BD. And then, as I say, by the time lunch goes— because they want to go and have, you know, clients and candidates are going to eat their own lunch and do their own thing— and that's my time as well. So they're doing it, why shouldn't I? So So I think doing that just allows me to have that, you know, de-stress and just doing what I need to do. And then, yeah, and then back.

I like that, man. How's the missus been with you? Uh, have you been on the phone a lot in the evening? Have you got the laptop out in the evening?

How have you found that LinkedIn app on my phone? That's been a nightmare because obviously people just be pinging you at like 9, 10.

How do you deal with that? Because do you get mine?

Do you get—

you say— does she say mine, stop working?

I'm bad. So I used to do the thing, was that like a lamppost where I used to live, and when I'd walk from the station back to my house, I used to say, by the time I get there I'm not doing any more calls. Yeah. And that, that was my little bromance. But since I moved house and stuff, I've been— yeah, I've been really bad. That's my thing that I've been really— I wouldn't recommend, is, is to say, because you're accessible on LinkedIn all the time, you can ping people, private messages, whatever, and the temptation just to quickly respond. I'll just quickly respond.

Yeah.

So that is bad. And there's been a few times where she's been like, what are you doing? And, you know, the phone's on at midnight going, I'm just gonna quickly reply to this person.

So yeah, it's harder than that.

It's a process to switch off, particularly when it's your baby, like your— yeah, when it's yours because it matters more. And actually, that drives— that definitely drives people when it's your own thing that you're trying to grow and develop. But yeah, that's the biggest thing you can think about.

There's always something that you can find to do.

Yeah, yeah.

You could finish at 6 o'clock.

Yeah.

But you know, you're thinking in your head, I could do that. Yeah, I could do that.

And then I'll go job spotting in the evening on LinkedIn. I'll click on the job ad and then I'll just be scrolling through. Oh, just quickly apply that, mention that person, and then yeah, before you know it, your evening's gone.

Yeah, no, totally. I think it's a process, something you've got to get better at. But I think for me, what has really helped I'm sure you may have just done this intuitively or whatever, but I've had to like really make sure that obviously communicate, yeah, what the hell I'm doing. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could look at you now if I'm your missus and you're on LinkedIn, you'll find this like, mine, like, stop texting, like, do you know what I mean? It's so easy to associate, like, you're just sort of scrolling or whatever, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's what's really helped me in terms of communicating, one, why I'm doing it, like, this isn't, this isn't us, it isn't just a me Yeah, like, this is why, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's really helped me personally.

And I think, you know, for anyone that's setting up a business, it, you know, it's my earlier point, it doesn't matter if it's a, if it's a lifestyle business, that's why you're doing it, that's awesome. I know loads of people that make— I've got great businesses, lifestyle. If you want to grow it, like, but I think before you do it, understand the reasons why you're doing it.

Yeah.

If you're doing it just to be the Leonardo DiCaprio making it rain or whatever like that, that, that's not, that's not good enough for me anyway. That's not a good enough reason. Like, money— I've always had the mentality in recruitment that money is a byproduct product of success. If you're successful, yeah, people will pay you good salaries, you'll get good commission, that's just part of it. But if you're purely looking as a monetary reason why you're setting up on your own, I personally wouldn't set up on your own. Yeah, yeah, because those first few months, arguably first few years, are hard graft. Yeah, you know, you're probably not going to pay yourself very much. You know, overheads aren't too bad depending if you want to get office space, but it's a big investment.

So that brings you to the next point. Yeah, as we sort of, um, come to the end, like how How— obviously you said about biggest challenge, self-motivation and stuff. Yeah, talking a bit about it there. So what you're talking about there is that the resilience piece, right? Yeah. How have you cultivated that, or what's your relationship with resilience, and how have you sort of gone through— as you said, you're fully aware it's gonna be hard graft, it's tough. So how have you done that, or like, do you know what I mean? How have you— what do you do to help with that?

So I've got this thing in my book where I've almost got like a good thing in the day and the bad thing in the day. So if something good happens, I'll just do a little asterisk and just make a quick note of it, like a quick one-liner, like good call with X, call her next week. And if, you know, a candidate's turned down a job, I'll be like, okay, that's not great, you know. And I just make a list and I don't lose sight of the good. The bad is, is learns, but the stuff that's good—

interesting— is, is how long have you done that?

Um, I, I used to literally start when I set the business up. Really? Advice I got from one of these networking groups, they were like, just do it, break down a sort of pros and cons of the day. And it's been so valuable.

Why has that been valuable?

Because any recruiter always gravitates to the negatives that happen in the day.

Yeah.

So they get a fee in first thing in the morning, and then you have like 3 dropouts, and I don't know, clients saying to go away or whatever, and then you lose sight of the good thing that happened in the morning. So I think for me, almost having that down physically on a piece of paper every day that goes, that's good, you don't— you're then kind of going, okay, okay, this might sound, you know, it might feel bad for me, but I've done all these things today that are good. Even if it's one good thing.

No, I think, I think—

don't lose sight of it.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think what I think that's really interesting because it is very easy to forget where you were.

We're salespeople, we're extroverts typically, we're competitive natured people. It's really easy to gravitate always to negative. So I think not losing sight of that, the little quick wins, you know, they're, they're the real key things to keep you self-motivated.

Okay, couple final things then. So 6 months in, yeah, would you go back and do anything differently?

Yeah, what a few things. Go and Um, kind of almost— that sounds like I'm contradicting what I said before— getting too many people's advice. So I went out— that's a good point— I went out and got advice, really good advice, but then I almost got— went to too many people to get advice, and then I was getting this conflict of, okay, should I be doing that or that?

Yeah.

So almost select 2 or 3 people that you trust or you want to reach out to, you know, the recruiters, whatever. Um, get their advice, digest it, and then execute. And then execute.

I like what I do. That's a really good one.

But, but don't, don't listen to Thomas too much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, set— be disciplined with what you're going to do, because the temptation when you're on your own is to just— if a client says to you, Martin, I know this isn't your normal bag, but can you go and recruit her? Yeah, I don't know, whatever. The temptation is to say yes to everything.

So true.

So you've got to be so disciplined when you start, because you'll just go, yeah, I'll do that.

And yeah, how hard is it to say no at the beginning?

So hard. I picked up a job, which was like, it was just nothing to do with what I was doing. And I said, yeah, yeah. And I was literally like 2 weeks in, I hadn't found a Makanda, and they were a bit like, what's going on? I had to say to them, look, I'm really sorry, I've kind of jumped the gun a bit there. So I think make sure you're— whatever you're specializing, stay with, you know, stay focused on that. Don't—

I think at the same time, be open that it might change.

Or yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But I think know what you don't want to do or how you don't want to work.

Yeah.

I had my first experience this over last couple of weeks, and, um, I said no for the first time. Yeah, because they basically proposed how they want me to work with them, right?

Okay.

And it wasn't how I've—

it's your way.

Yeah, it wasn't like— I mean, it was actually like, it sounded great. I was like, okay, yeah, sure. And I actually said— I sort of said, yeah, okay, I'm open to it, blah blah blah. Sat down with him again, I was like, I just want to make sure I'm on the same page, like, what you're proposing, blah blah blah. And then I was like, okay, right, sweet, let's do it. And I instantly regretted it.

Really? Yeah.

So then I had to obviously call them, have the tail in between my legs, and be like, look, I know I said yes, but I'll be honest, I was thinking about all weekend and this is why I can't work like that. And it was really interesting actually, because what happened was they then basically said to me, well, look, we do really want to work with you. Like, we— I think it would be stupid for you to not work with us. There's a huge opportunity long term, blah blah blah. And I was like, okay, that's fair enough, but this is how I want to work. So then I'm now working with them, but it's, it's like how I've works with how everyone I've worked with in the last 4 months and how I want to work right now. Yeah, but I would— but I had— I said yes and then I said no, which I just made it more difficult.

Yeah, and that's exactly why it's so hard. But if you say no, people respect you more for it. Yeah, you don't go back in the future because they'll go, okay, you're standing by what your USP is or what you're specializing is, and you know, let's touch base in the future. People aren't going to walk away forever. I think that's sometimes in your head when you're going, yeah, right, it's a new job, like, because like, again, it was kind of just got instant, was like, yeah, this is gonna be a shit show.

Yeah, like, don't do it. Yeah, but I didn't listen to it. Yeah, literally. And then, and then now it's like, okay, we work together, and if it— if my gut is being completely right and it's not great at all, I mean, I'll definitely deliver and work with them, but then I can learn from that and go, you know what, guys, look, it's been great, I've delivered, but I'm all right now. Like, I don't, I don't want to work with you anymore, and this is why. Yeah, because it's hard, it's hard at the beginning to be like, no.

Well, it's easy if you've got a shedload of clients and those sort of stuff, you can just go, yeah, no thank you. Yeah, yeah. No.

And then they're like, why? Yeah, well, it's just like my guts are telling me, look, you know what I mean? It's hard.

It's so important to stand your ground. And again, I've had advice from that, like, stand your ground. This is what you're doing. Yeah, be disciplined and be respected for that.

Too much advice, be careful.

Yep.

Be strict with what you, what you're willing to do, what you're not to do. Anything else?

Um, listen to your gut. Because I've listened to my gut for my whole career. I know I've made a load of mistakes. Yeah, don't get me wrong.

Wrong.

Um, but generally, listening to my gut has got me to kind of where I am today. So, um, I've got loads to learn still, don't get me wrong, but, but generally my gut's been right. So if the gut doesn't feel right, whether that's a move to another recruitment business, whether that's an investment opportunity, whether that's just someone you're hiring or whatever, a client you want to take on board, just if your gut says that doesn't feel right, then go with your gut.

Yeah, I like it. So before we finish, mate, Yeah, one or two questions, um, just because I've had quite a few messages about it recently. First one: counter offers, I should go to advice throughout the statistics of 87%. Yeah, I've just had quite a few messages recently. It's quite interesting because a few people have said that. I think the last person asked, they said, you know what, they have actually definitely been quite way more common this year.

Yeah, they have. I, I agree with that.

Yeah, so that's really interesting, right? So let's, let's talk about it because I, I've got quite a few messages, so hopefully because it is the typical— like, if I think now, the spiel that I'd give someone if they're considering a counteroffer is, look, the majority of people that accept the counteroff will not stay in their role. Yeah. Why would you accept that role? And it's taken them 6 months to realize that you're this valuable to them, blah blah blah. Do you know what I mean? Go down that sort of avenue. It's like, what comes to mind for you if you're trying to deal with— there's obviously only a certain amount you can do.

Yeah.

But what's your sort of— what do you think when you're having to deal with a counteroffer situation? So what—

so there's two ways I'd answer. I guess from, from training up people over the years and stuff, I always say to them, have you done all your investigative work with the candidate at the start? I.e., one of your first questions for any new candidate for a job is, have you spoke to your boss internally?

Yeah.

What could they do to make you stay? Yeah. Is this—

so have you, have you qualified everything out, or have you missed a few?

Because ultimately, most majority of counter offers are through money. There are money issues, and they throw money at them. And it's, to your point, oh, why don't they do that 6 months ago, whatever. But I think at the start of it, again, it's understand from the candidate, is it money? And I always say to cats, don't worry if it is. Like, be like recruiters. If you're leaving for money, that's fine, but we need to know that because no one likes saying that almost when they're talking to it as a candidate. They— no one likes to say, I want to move because I want 10 grand more. They'll say, oh, a new opportunity, which basically means that. So I think that's the first thing from a recruiter-to-recruiter perspective. Interrogate the start because you'll find your counteroffer issues will be less down the line. You're right, it happens. Like, counteroffers happen. There's only so much you can do But I think just almost understanding it, because certainly again, from the, the younger me, someone counter-offered me and literally emotions in it— no, no, no, no, you want this, you know? Yeah, no, actually listen to them. Active listening, you know, talk about earlier on, like, listen to them, understand what— why are they— why are they looking to leave? Why are they looking to stay? Sorry, like, you know, there could be a senior role with, you know, global responsibility they weren't getting before. Fair play, like, all the best. But I think just interrogating that all the way through the process particularly at the start, and then every time you're having your candidate on interview. How'd it go? Any reservations? Have you spoken to an internal team? I'm always really nervous when any candidate goes into process and hasn't had any conversation with their boss at all about, I'm a bit unhappy, or I'm looking for new development, or whatever.

Cool, I like it.

But it happens, and it's crap.

Uh, I have a question. What's the best reason you've had from a candidate that couldn't attend an interview? Um, what comes to mind?

Oh, actually, yeah, so I had one last year. Um, it was a dog's birthday.

Wow.

So she, yeah, she literally called me in the morning. She was meant to be in at 9, and I got a call on my way into work, literally like half an hour before, and she said, I'm really sorry, I forgot it's my dog's birthday, and me and my husband are taking the dog out for the day.

What? And what, she, you placed her and she was due to start?

No, no, she was going into an interview. So she was going for an interview at 9 o'clock.

Oh, sorry. Yeah, interviews.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's literally going for a 9 o'clock interview and half 8 she calls me, I'm really sorry, I forgot it's my dog's birthday, me and my husband are going out for the day with the dog. What can you say to that? You can't say, oh, don't be so— I love dogs. So I'm like, okay, but I'm just like, really? Right, okay, fine. I mean, I, I thought, bringling, I was genuinely gobsmacked. I was just like, what? Gobsmacked. I was just like, what?

Yeah, like, send me the pictures.

Like, yeah, yeah, have a great day. So do you want to rearrange it?

Yeah, anyway, yeah.

So that was probably the most random one.

Thank you, mate.

Um, Cool.

So look, before we finish, what, what are you excited about, mate? 6 months in, what's going on in, uh, your world?

Yeah, so exciting times for me. So, um, just got, uh, some new offices in Southampton. Nice. Which is awesome. So, um, setting up there, um, just about to hopefully hire the first person. Wow, talent drive to be in there. Yeah, which is awesome.

So, um, and do you, do you want experience hires? Do you want—

so yeah, someone experienced guy. He's, um, I, I knew him, I've known him for a few years from the industry and stuff, and real sound guy. So yeah, he's coming to join next month, which is awesome. Um, and, um, yeah, I've just started off a talent share referral scheme, which is to a local charity near where I live, children's hospice. So we donate £200 of every fee if a candidate referred, which is great. And that's one of the beauties of doing a business on your own— you can give back to the community.

Yeah, absolutely. That's amazing.

So that's a really cool initiative that just started out. And, uh, yeah, see where the next sort of 6 months go. But yeah, it's going well.

Um, so last question I ask everyone: if, uh, if, if Martin could obviously communicate to every single recruiter out there, they take on your advice, they'd implement it— can be a word, a phrase— what would you say? A word, a phrase, anything?

Be authentic.

Nice. I thought you might go for that.

It's the word I've used.

But yeah, mine— it's been a pleasure, mate. Yeah, thanks for your time.

Pleasure. I could see