Michael Judkins - 15 Minutes With A Recruitment Mentor

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Welcome back to another episode of the 15 Minutes with a Mentor series where we're interviewing some of the mentors from inside the community in line with the launch of the Recruitment Mentors Community, and we're asking the mentors 7 questions in 15 minutes. Delighted to be joined by Michael today, but for those, uh, that may not know you, if you could introduce yourself. And then we'll get into it.

Thanks. Yeah, good to see you again. Yeah, so my name is Michael Judkins. I am a senior manager at a marketing and digital e-commerce recruitment company in London called 3search, and I head up a couple of parts of the business, one focused on consumer marketing roles, and then the other is a specialist recruitment function responsible for recruiting some of the channel-specific roles across marketing and money from us.

Amazing. First question: what was your biggest challenge in 2020? How did you overcome it? And what did you learn from it?

Uh, yeah, I got asked this recently. I've got two, um, so I don't know if I'm going to be greedy. Is that okay? Um, so they link to be, you know, they link to be fair. So I think Biggest fear when everything happened was, how am I going to manage my team remotely? I'm very much a, well, I've always felt like I'm very much a face-to-face kind of manager. I get more from my team if I'm face-to-face, because I've typically worked one day a week at home anyway. So I always knew on those days I didn't really feel like I was getting as much from maybe the team as I would have liked if I'd been face-to-face. And yeah, I guess I feared that, you know, the change in communication style and the fact that, you know, I wasn't just sat across the desk would have a negative impact on, you know, how we would work. And I think, you know, that for me was, you know, the number one kind of challenge. And I guess, you know, actually what it taught me was that there was an opportunity to talk openly with the team about how we communicate around certain areas. And actually what I do think since then is that we are better at communicating because we've had to adapt and work in an environment where it isn't just instantly over the desk. So what you get, I think, is more meaningful conversations when you do speak, and you're actually into the detail more because you have less opportunity to have those kind of smaller conversations, you know, just here and there. So, you know, on one hand, I do miss them because it's probably more instant and reactive to the situation or the problem that might be at hand. On the other hand, I feel like I get more detail when I do catch up, and therefore we can dive into things. And what that also then has done is given them the responsibility to be able to go away and deal with those problems themselves, as opposed to just relying on me because I'm sat opposite them, or yeah, I'm 2 meters away or 3 meters away from them, you know, whatever it may be. So actually, you know, they've had to step up and upskill because they've had to deal with certain situations if they can't get hold of me because I'm on another Zoom call or, you know, or, or, or, you know, or something. So Yeah, that was probably the biggest challenge and that's, I guess, the outcome of what's happened. And then tying into that, I think, is then how to motivate the team. You know, when, you know, I think, you know, we've seen a lot about this recently is, you know, the first lockdown, you know, was met with this kind of wave of enthusiasm, collectiveness, you know, togetherness across the business and the team. You know, the second one was, you know, pre-Christmas, I didn't think, you know, 'Actually, I think there was some hope,' etc. And then this time round, I don't know about your conversations that you've had, but I feel like it's been harder at times for a lot of people, and actually motivating them when you yourself are going through some of those challenges can be quite a hard thing to do because we're all experiencing this, it's not, you know, everyone's impacted. And actually that You know, I know that's kind of started this year, but it's obviously part of last year, is a massive challenge for me. It's like, right, you know, you're not maybe not feeling up for it today, but how do I get myself in the right mindset and frame of mind for my team meeting so that, you know, actually, you know, they feel this energy and positivity? And I think it's a balance between, you know, actually explaining how you feel and that you're in that with them. And yeah, you know, you're not some robot who isn't impacted by it. So showing some empathy and showing some kind of that you are impacted by the situation, but also try and have the right mindset to say, this is what I'm going to try and do about it, and this is what I'm going to do today, and setting clear goals and just communicating with them about how you're going to do it so that they feel that they can manage that too. But it is quite hard to motivate when you might be feeling the same as them.

Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that, Michael. That was great. So on that point then, I guess it'd be interesting to hear this from you. What working from home tip could you share with other recruiters that has had a massive impact on your productivity?

Oh, well, I guess, yeah, I think for me, I guess in terms of productivity for myself, because I haven't been in the office, I've actually been able to spend more time focusing on maybe my own activities as opposed to always having to deal with maybe some of the team's issues or challenges. So one thing I did say, and that links back to that point around the communication, is setting a dedicated time to talk, so whether that be in the morning, and then actually getting on with what I need to do, whether that's sourcing for a job or trying to win business, or maybe I'm interviewing someone, actually, that's then my dedicated task and my slot to do to do that, and therefore I don't have the other interferences that you might well get when in the office. So I guess my tip is plan ahead, plan your day, make sure you've got time for yourself, but also then time if you are a manager for a team, but make sure you're breaking your day down into times where you're trying to focus on that task and people around you know that that is what you're doing at that time, and they know when to speak to you or interact with you so that you can then focus on that, because it's quite easy to get distracted in this job and then you you lose sight of what you were doing in the first place. So just trying to be organised, I think.

Yeah, great. So on the topic of business then, what has been the most effective way for you to win business in the last 12 months then?

I think it's been a combination of things. Leveraging longstanding relationships, which, you know, was the first point to come up. Yeah, I think we have as a business traditionally focused on that and how we won a lot of our work has been based on who, you know, previous relationships and actually, you know, providing a good service and doing a good job for them and then getting a recommendation and referral. And that's how we typically build a business in the first few years because we were a bit of an unknown in our market. You know, people weren't aware of us, so we had to come with, you know, some recommendations and testimonials and referrals of good business because, you know, why were they going to give us a chance over our competitors who they've worked with or heard of for 10, 15, 20 years? I think we're now at that point where actually our brand does hold a bit of weight when we approach people and people know who we are. So we don't have to, you know, we've got other options available. But, you know, because of last year and because of what happened and because people did stop recruiting, you had to kind of rely on those relationships. And yeah, make time for people, you know, really build— I think it was like building trust with people that, you know, you can help them in however way they, you know, they want, and that might be recruitment, it might be some advice, and then I think just providing that extra level of customer service and just going above and beyond what you would typically do in the job was why I feel like we were able to win some more work and pick up some more work towards the back end of the year because we just really, you know, we really, really tried to deliver on everything we could and go above and beyond because we knew it was tough and we knew that other people out there might. So just providing that extra level of customer service for us saw, you know, saw a fair few results. And then the other things that we did were, you know, some of the kind of branding stuff and, you know, trying to get the team and the guys talk more and share more insight through LinkedIn and social channels, and then holding webinars and events and actually adding some value in a completely different way. We've done a little bit of that, but we've never really done it consistently. And we did 5 or 6 webinars towards the back end of last year. I hosted one and got a panel together of people, some people who I'd worked with, others who I just kind of come into contact with. And it's really good because they're now people that I could quite happily pick up the phone to and talk to, whereas 6 months ago, if I'd called them, it might have been a bit, you know, there might have been some like, why, you know, why are you calling? Whereas actually now, you know, they've hopefully gained some value from being on this webinar or this topic and people have attended it. And it's just a nice little touchpoint for people. I think something different than, you know, I want to help you recruit for a job.

Yeah, no, I love that. Amazing. So what habit or hobby did you start in 2020 that you're going to continue in 2021?

Well, I didn't start, but yeah, we were talking about it earlier. Yeah, I mean, I just got back into running. So yeah, if any of my team or business are listening to this later on, they'll laugh because I'm always talking about Strava and yeah, times and stuff. But yeah, for me, that was a big one. And I was so— I think I was inspired by everyone else getting into doing, you know, physical outdoor activity as well, but in particular running, because it's always been me talking about it. I've always been a runner, but I think no one's ever really got the fascination with how, you know, the benefits of it, not just, you know, physically, but actually mentally. And that for me was a real way to clear my head in what has obviously been a really tough year. It was just some time to myself where I could clear my mind and have a think, you know, listen to a podcast or some music and just, you know, completely zone out. And yeah, I just, again, I think I just, I fell in love with it again, like I had done maybe previously, but yeah. I love that. It's good to see so many people doing it as well.

So I want to know then, which do you think is better, the first coffee in the morning or the first pint post-work on a Friday?

Oh, it's got to be the pint. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, I do like coffee.

I mean, for me, I'm, I'm coffee all day long, but Most people have said pint so far.

Have they? Oh, that's good. I feel bad. I'm not, I'm no Lash Legend these days, but I would probably say the beer at the end of the week. Yeah, I think that's a hard one. It's a hard one to give up.

Yeah, no, it's fair.

Right.

So next one is slightly different. It's a scenario and I want to hear how you'd approach it. So a particular business who's been a sort of a target client of yours for over a year, long period of time. And during that time, there's been several touchpoints from them engaging with some of your content. Maybe one of them might have attended one of your webinars, you might have sent them some emails, and through your candidate network, you managed to get one of the hiring manager's contact details at this company. So you call that person, they pick up, they answer, they say, hello, who is this? And I just want to hear how you would approach that conversation and that first interaction.

Yeah, fair enough. I think, you know, it can depend on the situation, but I guess for me personally, it would be to try and build some form of credibility or establish some form of relationship early on. So whether that's talk about the people that we know, together or mutually connected to, or whether that's talk about something that we might have in common or some of the touchpoints we've had, and just approach it very much with how I can help them or what their situation is. They might be looking for a job, for example, and if they are, I would certainly spend the first part of that call focusing on them and their search and not even talk about necessarily anything to do with with me trying to recruit for them. But along the way, I'd probably try and give some relevant examples about work where we've previously helped similar clients, or, oh, actually, you know, such-and-such, I helped them, you know, worth asking them. And then as part of my questioning around their situation, perhaps if they are looking to get into the team and understanding what they've done to get to that point, you can then, you know, just ask an honest question or an open question about, you know, how they typically would go about recruitment and, you know, start that. Yeah, I think Sometimes it's, you could overthink those questions, but actually just asking that question is the hardest thing for people to do, and not enough people do it. You know, try and skirt around the question, trying cleverly about how I can, you know, win this piece of work. You know, by asking it, as long as you've built, you know, as long as you've built up some form of credibility, and hopefully by being engaging and knowledgeable about your industry or sector, by asking that question, you shouldn't get a negative response. I often find if you get a negative response or a closed or really, you know, quite like, why have you asked that? You know, that's not, you know, that's not right. Or that's not what this call is about. Then that's typically because we haven't done enough in the start to build up that credibility.

Yeah.

We just, you know, we just, yeah, we just haven't done enough to make sure they know why. But hopefully if you've done that bit right, that question, yeah, you might not necessarily get the response you want, but you probably get an answer that you can then work with again. And then I guess it's about in your mind working out when that next touchpoint is and when that next conversation is.

Yeah, I don't—

yeah, I would never expect to go into that call picking up a job. I would expect to go into that call knowing that I'm going to do my best to, you know, give them a good impression of me so that if I pick up the phone again and again and again, hopefully over time I'll win that work. And that's if I go into it like that rather than I'm going to go into this winning a job, then I'm not then defeated if I I don't pick up that job in that first call. Yeah, great. I think it's easy to be like, right, I'm going to pick up the job. And yeah, great. That's obviously what you want, but it doesn't always work like that. It might take a bit, might take a little bit longer. You've got to be prepared for that, I think. Brilliant.

Final question. So just wanting to imagine that sort of you're speaking to a recruiter who has like, yeah, you were just sharing with me before this with your team and stuff. So you're speaking to a recruiter that has set goals for 2021. They've written them down, they're feeling motivated, they're feeling pumped, they're going to have a better year than they did in 2020. What would your advice be to that person that you think would help them have the best possible chance of achieving the goals that they've set themselves?

Um, yeah, I kind of liken this to maybe running, because when I set my goals, I'm like, right, what do I want to be at the end of the year? And actually, how am I going to get there? Um, so I typically break that, like, break break them down. You know, you might have a goal for the whole of the year, but that's a long way. It's 12 months in this job, it's a long time. So break it down. So make sure you have some smaller goals, some short-term objectives, and some medium and some long-term objectives so that you can celebrate stuff along the way. The other thing is then I think if you've got the smaller, medium, and, you know, objectives, actually they're stepping stones towards the long-term objective and the long-term goal. So you're focusing on stuff. That will help you get to that long-term goal. And it just kind of realigns you and focuses you. It's like, where do I need to be in, you know, at the end of Q1? Where do I need to be at the end of half year? And then at least you're then on track or you can see if you're on track, you know, to get to that end goal. So I'd certainly break it down. The other thing I would then say is like, expect things to change and happen along the way. And yeah, you know, by breaking it down, I guess that's less of a, you know, you can realign and maybe you might need to kind of you know, change that goal slightly because something's happened, you know, like last year something happened, we had to realign what we were doing, you know, actually be okay with that and expect things to change and accept those changes in a positive way that they're like, right, I can do something about that and change your mindset. And then, yeah, just I guess trust that, you know, trust the process to get you there and believe in it and follow that.

Love that. Michael, that was 15 minutes of a mentor. Thank you so much.

Thank you, mate. Very good to see you again.