Military To Recruitment: Building A Multi-Million Pound Recruitment Business With Josh Keeley

All I need is experience. I need journeys, stories. When you are on your own, 6 months later in a pub, in a meetup, at an event with a CISO, with a head of, with an analyst, whatever, you can talk about things other than recruitment, other than cybersecurity, and you're engaging and you have a story from the past.

So welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Josh Keely. Josh is one of the co-founders of a recruitment business that specializes in the cybersecurity space called Trident Search. Before you entered the recruitment world, you worked in the military for 6 years?

That's correct, yeah.

Climbed the ranks in one agency, started your own business within that business?

Yeah.

Is that right?

Yeah, yeah.

What year did you start Trident?

Jan 2020.

Jan 2020, couple of months before lockdown. Something that he's really proud of is committing to his niche, and something that he really advocates with his team. And we talk about how all of you listening can achieve that in your own industry and why that's important. He shares with us that he doesn't train recruitment and he trains commercial acumen. He talks about what the VCs do, what the private equity companies do, how does a P&L work, how do threat intelligence businesses make money, and really educate his team on the problems that they solve rather than being entirely focused on filling jobs. Every single day, what do I have to be doing that hopefully in the long run will mean I can say, yeah, 70% of my business comes from referral.

I made it on my to-do list, my plan. Yeah, you had your candidate calls, you had your night work, etc. The first thing I did every morning at 8 o'clock was enjoy.

Josh, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, thanks for having me.

Looking forward to breaking down this journey that you've been on. I want to give everyone some immediate career highlights for Josh, so you, you let me know if I get anything wrong. But I think firstly, which I'm, um, excited just to understand your experience, or at least get your perspective on, but before you entered the, the recruitment world, you worked in the military for 6 years?

That's correct, yeah.

Um, so before— yeah, so you then entered the, the recruitment industry in 2016, um, and then you've been in it ever since. So, um, climbed the ranks in, in one agency, then you, uh, started your own business within that business?

Yeah.

Is that right?

Yeah, yep.

Um, and then you started Trident. I want to make sure I get the year right here. What year did you start Trident?

Jan 2020.

Jan 2020, couple of months before lockdown. Yeah, yeah, cool. So Jan 2020. Um, so highlighting that first year, you ended up with around 4 people, 350 grand net fee income, because we didn't NFI, didn't we? Yeah, we did NFI.

Yeah, I could talk to you about total later.

That's right. And then second year, um, ended around 8 people, 1.25 net fee income. Third year, £1.8 million net fee income, 14 people. Fourth— we're in the fourth year now. In our fourth year. In your fourth year now. Um, I think you said you're aiming for £2.5 million net fee income as a big goal, aiming to get around 25 heads. Um, and then just a bit more context, uh, right now it's around 80/20, 80 being perm. I do around 6% of your business in EMEA, um, another, uh, and then the 40% in, uh, US.

Yep.

You do provide different solutions, different products. You know, you have contingent recruitment, exclusive, but also then you have, I think you call it RPO or like, you know, a talent partnership model that you also have that you've had some really good success with. And your world is everything threat intelligence.

Yes, my personal world, yes. But we've since expanded and grown into wider disciplines across cybersecurity.

But yeah, cybersecurity as a whole.

Yeah.

Okay, cool, love that. So Josh, let's start with this, this million-pound question first then. Like, from your perspective, what, what characteristics and traits make up a highly successful recruiter in today's market?

Good question. So I'll try and stay away from the typical characteristics that everyone says, and I'll tell you the kind of, um, what do I— what does it actually take in my opinion, right? So what we try to drive into everybody at Trident and what do we look for when we hire people. So first one is we look for people who are obsessed So an obsession with your job, your community, what you're doing. And that doesn't mean you have to work crazy, crazy hours, but what I mean by that is, um, it's a hard job to switch off, right? So the— in my opinion, the people I've seen and my experience and people we have now who are the top performers are obsessed with what they do, and, um, they do work long hours, right? Um, there is no way getting around that. But you could be obsessed 9 to 5, but you'd have to be super disciplined and structured, right? So obsession, for sure. Domain expert. So whatever you do, whether it's finance, you just recruit interim accounts payables, or you recruit pen testers in the cybersecurity market, you have to be a domain expert in exactly what you are recruiting the people to the point where you can come off a briefing call visualizing exactly what that person will be doing when you get them a job. So what they're doing when they open up their keyboard, laptop, day one, what are they doing? So domain expert in that sense. And then, uh, the one I think is the most important for us, and where I see most recruiters fail, is the business acumen. So what I mean by that is what's a P&L, what's profit, what's loss, what's net versus GP, etc. Um, and we're kind of— that's where we'll come into it in a bit about training and stuff, but that's where we train our team on the most. Not recruitment, not necessarily the market, but how do you— or how do businesses operate. And therefore, and we can come into it in a little bit, but just understanding how your clients work as a business and why, and the kind of the what-ifs, and then okay, if we— what's the implications if we can't find someone? So obsession, the domain expertise, and business acumen is probably the most important. I would say the top 3. If you want to chuck another one in there, I would say you have to be known for like for something. So for me, you touched on it a little bit, but when I started Trident I was only doing threat intelligence within cybersecurity. So some people would say that's a very small market, it was a very— it's a niche within a niche, but, um, just drill down into that and be known for something. So you've got the CTI community here, or cyber threat intelligence. I was the person in the middle. So eventually, in a very short space of time, everyone was looking internally at me, and it's referrals, it's word of mouth, etc. So, um, it's a great thing.

Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to go into the mindset and methodology around the commercial acumen, because I think that's actually a really great tip for people. So I'm excited to go into like why you, you've, uh, lent into that and, and what that then means for the team.

Sure.

But just before we go into all the recruitment stuff, I want to make sure I just ask, because I'm just genuinely curious, and I know now that in the world that you're in, you do a lot with people that have served. So like it's a big part of your story, right? So I want to make sure that we at least touch on that. But I guess all I'm like at all curious about, um, I don't have any friends that, that served, um, and you often hear— I feel like the, um, perception can be for people that it can be difficult to transition into like the workplace. Yeah, like post-serving, whatever that looks like. So I don't want to assume that you had a challenge with that, but that, that's my question really. Like, what was it like for Josh entering like the workplace after working in the Marines for 6 years. Like, was that difficult? Was that experience like— would you mind just sharing there? Because I know that's— then you actively speak to people and work with people that have previously served, right? So it's a big part of the story.

Yeah, yeah, of course. I'm happy to, uh, tell my story, so to speak. Um, we'll take it back a, like, a little bit. So what did I do in the Marines? Um, I was heavy weapons. Um, I served more maritime, so I was doing counter-piracy, Somalia, Libya, um, and Colonel Gaddafi in 2014. Um, so I did a lot on the— in the Gulf of Aden and all around there in the Middle East. Um, but when I left, uh, I actually resettled. We call it resettlement, right? So when you leave, depending on how long you served and where you served, you'll get a resettlement grant. So basically a certain amount of money to then go and do courses, etc., etc., right? So I had, I think, £6,000. And I remember quite vividly talking to one of the guys that already left, and I was like, shit, you're making a load of money. You want a Rolex? You're wearing some cool clothes. Like, what do you do? And he was like, I'm in it. And I was like, I'm gonna do it.

Yeah.

Little did I know, I left and I actually took a pay cut. I think I started— I worked at Cisco. I started on like 22k. I was like, fuck, what have I done? Um, but I went and done like a 12-week course up in Lincoln, spent 6 grand as a network and firewall engineer, worked at Cisco for 4 or 5 months. And I suppose the only difficulty I had when I kind of resettled I was very lucky, was I didn't realize that most of your time as an IT engineer is you're on your own, you're traveling to customer sites around London, you're in a van and you've got your tool bag. It's cool when you're on site and you're in the server rooms and you're switching out routers and firewalls and stuff, that's cool. But when you're on your own 6 hours a day on the M25 listening to Radio 1, you want to blow your brains out. Because I come from an environment where there's 30 guys all around you all the time, you're on the shooting range, you're playing football, you're doing fit um, to then just sat in a van by myself. So that was probably the difficulty I had. And what I didn't realize at the time was, um, firstly, your first job when you leave is not your last job. You don't— you're not probably not gonna do another 6 years in your next job that you go into. Um, so that's a bit of reality check. Um, but you need to make sure you have 2 things around you, I think. Um, a very good, uh, personal life in terms of support. I had a really good wife, um, and that we now have a child, but um, good family, bit of a support network there. And also you've got friends that are not in the military, so you have your kind of civilian normal life around you. That's not— you're always going, oh, I wish I was still with the boys. And it's like, well, actually, I've got a kind of group of friends here that I've stayed in touch with, etc. And then the other bit was the professional environment that you're in. So how do you get that soft landing so when you do leave, um, it's a bit of a familiar environment, it's not so alien, you're not in a van all day. Um, so that's where I think people struggle. So that's when I left very quickly, and it was a bit of an ego hit to say, shit, I failed this next job that I've gone into. I've trained for 12 weeks, and the employer that took me on took a bit of a chance, right? Because I'd had a Marine before, and they were like, oh, he only lasted like 5 months.

Yeah.

I was like, no, it's not me, it's not me. Like, I'm committed, I'm going to do this. I lasted 4 months. Uh, so, um, the journey, uh, the transition, shall we say, um, it's obviously different depending on who you are. But if you had those two things sorted out, your personal, professional life Good environment. Okay, I think so, yeah. And, um, working out what you're going to do is, uh, less difficult, or it can be more ambiguous than it is the actual environment you're in. So there's three— we call it the three Ps when I talk to people that are transitioning into the real world. Uh, we look at firstly the people— who are you going to be working with?

Yeah.

The environment, the culture. Then you look at the purpose— what's the purpose that you're going to have when you move into that role? Because company, etc. And then you pay. So people, purpose, and pay. Pay is always third, in my opinion. Always is in life. If you're in a good environment and you're good at your job, you're going to get paid pretty well. Um, but your purpose and the people that you're surrounded by is probably the most important. Purpose is the probably number one thing you lose when you leave. It's very obvious and it's very black and white, the purpose you have in the military, right? Why most people join. Um, but trying to find a purpose in a, in a normal job, uh, it's a little bit more difficult.

No, I appreciate you sharing that. It's, that's super interesting. And then just final note on it then, because I think this would be useful context. Why, why is it very common for military folk to then end up in cybersecurity?

A few things. One, the stat is we did a survey last year, I think it was like 1,800 people, uh, 51% of cybersecurity professionals are ex-military or law enforcement. It's crazy, right? Yeah. Um, it makes my sales and BD a lot easier. Um, but, uh, why? I suppose, the guardian mentality, want to protect something, want to help, especially the vulnerable. So you think a lot of cybersecurity people or threat actors and criminals are targeting like the NHS, right? So therefore it's kind of, you're kind of drawn to that. And also you have like the intelligence like section of the Army, so the Incorps, you have government agencies, Five, Six, GCHQ that do this work already, but just in the public sector, so different domain. Um, but you can get like people who have been a chef in the Army, right, who then again, it's that back to that guardian mentality, want to help, want to serve, um, and they're just drawn towards cybersecurity. So, um, it's getting better in the military as well with courses that are being offered to you as you leave that are not just project management or going to driving or logistics or what people think military are good at, um, but actually here's a cybersecurity course to help you transition and resettle. And it's a typical, like, in any industry, once you get a few people in that space, everyone else is just kind of—

You don't have stories to point at, don't you?

Yeah, correct.

Okay, I love that. Awesome. I appreciate you sharing all of that. So something that maybe I want to start with then, so, um, we want to focus on this Trident journey. I think something that you've said to me in preparation for this, and like you're really passionate about, is this domain expertise. And I think you hear that a lot, right? You have to be an expert or from— I feel like in today's market you're going to make it really hard for yourself if you're not known for something or you're not in a niche and don't commit to it. So I'd love to just hear your take on like what that actually looks like, do you know what I mean? Like to be a domain expert as a recruiter, like what, what does that actually look like? Is it every single day I am reading the news about my industry? Is it every single day I am trying to learn just one more thing by speaking from the conversations that I have? Like what, what does that actually look like, do you know what I mean, to become a domain expert? How, how do people become that?

So one is you have to give a shit about what you do, right? So, um, you have to, like I said, be known for something, which means if you want to kind of get into the practical, uh, like the daily stuff, right? So yes, it's reading the news, of course it is. It's knowing that yesterday Cisco intended to buy Splunk for $28 billion, right? And it's all over LinkedIn, so you couldn't miss it anyway because it's such a big acquisition. But, um, the news is really, really important. Then you want to go, right, what do people actually do in their jobs? Am I genuinely curious about what you do? So when I'm meeting people, talking to people, same as across my team, it's what— okay, so you protect, I don't know, so let's say I'll give you an example, right? I don't mind sharing this because most people know, but we built the security team at EasyJet.

Okay.

Right? So what does it actually mean? Well, I could tell you what it actually means. When you're on your flight to Ibiza with the girls, that the threat actors in North Korea don't try and take down your plane and put you in the water, right? That's a pretty like real world like situation. So if you genuinely care about that kind of stuff, then talking to the security team at easyJet, you're like, hey, so what's going on? And they can't tell you everything, but, um, just being curious about how they protect it, who's hitting or targeting the airlines, um, will help just generally build your knowledge. And then if you have a team of 25 recruiters all with that kind of mindset, everyone's just sharing stuff, right? As soon as we come in on a Monday morning, people are like, right, what's going on? What happened this weekend? Who's been hit? Who's been attacked? What's happening in Vegas? Uh, who's hit the MGM Grand? And then you look at like, okay, the MGM Grand, let's use that as an example. I'm talking to people that I know are actually responding to the incident. They're in Vegas now, there's 12 of them, and they're like, the MGM's not the only casino that's been hit. And then you look at the news, it's just MGM, because it's the biggest name, right? Caesars, etc. There's 30 casinos out there that have been whacked.

Wow.

Right? So, and then it says MGM losing $4 million a day, and you're like, yeah, they are. What about the other ones? Combined, it's $22 million a day they're losing. And like, if you genuinely care about that, because I think that's super interesting, right? Yeah. And I'm like, right now, how And then next you go kind of layer deeper than that. I'm in WhatsApp groups where it's just full of CISOs, so C-suite of the kind of security world, who are just talking about that. And then next thing you know, I've got like a GitHub repository, which is like a thing like Notepad on your laptop. The threat actor has actually sent a message to the public, so to speak, but you won't see it in the news on BBC. It's only on like GitHub repositories. And I'm in that group and you read it. And you're like, shit, like the threags actually talk about how they did it.

Wow.

And they're like, we gave them a heads up, we told them X, they didn't respond, blah blah blah blah blah. We still have control of XXX. Um, so if you're in those circles and I don't go in there with the idea or mindset that, hey, I'm a headhunter, uh, can I help you build your teams? It's just I want to be in the middle of the community and understand what the fuck's going on. Um, so I opened it this morning and people are talking about like what's going on with some Microsoft technologies like Copilot and how AI is affecting it and how they've implemented it in their teams. Um, and then I go— but I sort of talk to my team, I'm like, guys, did you know this? And it was like, shit, I didn't know that. Next thing you know, the team are then pinging in more kind of articles and news. And then all day, all you do is hear them talking to candidates and clients about that. Um, so it's just kind of like almost like infectious when you're in that environment.

Yeah. So I don't know if it answers your question, but no, no, I think that there's, you know, like you said, like be committed. One, you have to care about what you do and be generally interested in that. Like you said, like really commit to consuming content, like, you know, making sure that you're on a diet of content that is in your industry, right? So are you scrolling and consuming, you know, what, just like, just shit, or are you actually consuming stuff that could actually be really interesting and helpful in line with what you do? And then you said, yeah, just like commit to being really curious. So how long does that take? You know, if I, if I, do you know what I mean? Because I think sometimes people can think, oh, I'm never going to get there, or yeah, I'm never going to truly be a domain expert. So like when you hire people, clearly this is something that's really important to you. Like, how do you frame— how do you frame that up? Are you saying like, look, like, you'll, you'll be as competent as I am within 6 months if you have this approach? Like, how long does that take?

Uh, I don't know if there's a specific kind of period of time, um, because it's the more you put in, the more you get out, except like kind of cliché, right? But, um, in our environment, it's faster than normal because again, it's infectious and you You'd only have to be there and be a sponge, and it's kind of just even like subliminally you're just hearing it in the back of like conversations over there. Um, but if I had to put a number on it, it's 2-3 years. Yeah, because it like— what happened— and then look at the kind of the drop-off of recruiters after 9 months, 12 months into the job, and they're like, this isn't what I thought it was, I'm not making the commission I was going to make. And then you're like, you know, the older— the guy in the mining cave, and he's like stops, and he's like this close. All right, um, that's like genuinely— I see that all the time in, in, in this space, not just in cyber, but Um, yeah, I would say 2-3 years. The first year is just you giving all in. It's just input, input, input, right? And you're going to get little out. Let's be very frank, you might make on a $30K base, you might make $50K OTE, which is still good, right? Um, comparative to other industries. But, um, to be a genuine domain expert and to put yourself in the middle of the communities, hosting the events, being on stage, talking to people, um, and have the knowledge to be able to hold a conversation, yeah, it's well over a year.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that because that's good for people to, to know. And then just final thing on there.

Yeah.

Are you saying that— because I like my— you tell me what you think, but my opinion is Josh isn't gonna be, um, you're not gonna be as competent as a CISO. No. And that isn't your aim here. Yeah, you're— and like, yeah, people don't pay you to be as competent as a CISO, right? However, like, it is absolutely your job as a, you know, industry expert recruiter to really commit to understand, um, and be in the middle of those people where Actually, the best thing that you can do is one, yeah, understand what goes on in these people's worlds to the best of your ability, but also to say, be in the middle of, say like, hey, I spoke to 5 CISOs today, these are the things they're sharing with me, like, what do you think of that? Like, and like, be that, you know, be that exchange of information. But I think sometimes people— I don't know if you found this— but sometimes people think that in order for them to become a domain expert, they have to be as competent as the people that they're placing or working with. But that isn't what you're saying, right? You're just saying that you need to commit to being at the epicenter of like your world and to be able to be in a room and listen and understand, but you're never going to be as competent as these people.

Yeah, correct. Uh, if you could have 50% of the knowledge of the people that you're hiring or hiring for, job well done, right? But you add the business acumen, and we'll come on to the commercial side, uh, to that, plus our business model, right? We hire 30-year-olds who have had a life before. I don't care what that life looks like. All I need is experience. I need journeys, stories. And it's— so then when you are on your own 6 months later in a pub, in a meetup, at an event with a CISO, with a head of, with an analyst, whatever, you can talk about things other than recruitment, other than cybersecurity, and you're engaging and you have a story in the— like from the past. So, um, yeah, that really helps. But yeah, you don't need Yeah, and you have to accept you're never going to be at that level. If you want to be, then go into the industry. We've had 2 or 3 people leave our agency. We've given them certifications along the way, which we continue to do now, um, knowing that sometimes we do lose people to the industry because it's so interesting and they're like, shit, I want to be in that all day, every day. Um, but if you think you're going to be at that level as of a CSO, then you need to have a reality check.

I think sometimes people are so overwhelmed, confused with that.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so let Let's talk about— because again, this is something clearly you've doubled down on, and I don't think many people have really highlighted that it's something they intentionally do. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about why do you and your co-founder really put a lot of emphasis on developing commercial acumen? Because I'll be honest, I have interviewed people where they've said that's important, but then they necessarily haven't said like, we actively, intentionally like help Josh the recruiter understand how our clients make money and understand the P&L and understand the true problems that we solve and these things. So when you say we, you know, we train our people on commercial acumen, like one, what does that actually mean? And then two, like, why do you do that? And what are the, the positive impacts, the net positives that you found that then means when, you know, your team are recruiting?

Yeah, yeah, cool. So, uh, two ways we do it in terms of training, uh, so one is we actually, or actively, um, ask some of our clients to come into the office. So we build commercial teams for cybersecurity vendors, so software vendors, right? Thinking McAfee of the world. We will ask a VP of sales or a CRO, hey, can you come in? Can you speak to my kind of go-to-market team and explain to them what the impact of us hiring an account exec for you is? And then the way that kind of— and then we do the other bit of training, which is, hey guys, this is a venture capital firm, this is a private equity company, this is a P&L, this is net versus growth. I show them our P&L. I said, look— and they look at it and go, oh, they fall asleep, right? Because it's just line items of a spreadsheet and they don't give a shit about that, right? But what I'm trying to get him to visualize is when— and this is the end goal, right? When a company that we recruit for, let's say it's a big— it could be an Israeli software vendor that want to break into the US, right? So when that, um, company are in a board meeting, end of month meeting, right? You've got the CFO, CEO, CRO, whatever. Um, the CFO looks at that and they go on the PowerPoint, they go, holy shit, Trident, we spent 50 grand with them this month. But then the CRO is who's your internal sponsor, right? Think of it like that. Goes yeah, yeah, that's fine. I know it's a lot of money on paper and as a line item, but they found 4 account execs this year. Accumulatively, those 4 have made $2.8 million for us this year. And the guy goes, keep using them. So how can they get more people in? So if my team can visualize our clients in those boardrooms, that's what you are, right? You're genuinely just a cost, right? But if we can go, we are, but we do like end of quarter reviews of our clients and we say, hey, we found someone at the start of July. How they getting on? I've spoken to them, they love it. They've just closed their first deal, $800K deal with Kellogg's, whatever. Um, so they're settling in well, they're doing well. He's like, yeah, yeah. I was like, do you need any more? Because they're revenue generators. The more I can find for you, the, the, the more money you're going to make, the better you look as the, the leader of the sales team. Now attribute that to like a technical team. Let's go back to EasyJet example. If we're building a team of security operations analysts, so people that monitor and sit there and look at the networks and make sure that there's no malicious threat trying to get in.

Yeah.

And they can like, um, they get alerts when they are in, etc. Um, I can speak to a SOC analyst, uh, after they've been there a couple of months. Okay, hey, how you getting on? They're like, yeah, I love it, blah blah blah, taking for lunch. And then they go, yeah, but I, I was like, but what, what impact have you made since you've joined? And then they say, well, actually I blocked 6 malicious threats coming from China, um, and therefore that meant that we are we had no downtime, we're a trading firm, that means that we can continue to trading, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? So you can kind of attribute it to both the technical side of security that we recruit, so the defensive teams, but also the sales teams, even software developers that we recruit. I've built X since we've done, I've released a new product, a new feature, and that meant that we could actually then take it to market and our commercial teams are selling it. So you can see the genuine value. And then when you take it to another customer or a new client and doing kind of new BD, which we can come on to in a bit, how we do it. You can kind of approach a new VP of Sales and go, hey, I know you know Steve, the VP of Sales of that firm. Ask him. I placed 6 people there this year and they've done XXX in millions. Um, so it's almost too hard for them to say no.

So it sounds like then— I love that, by the way— so it sounds like then what you're really encouraging your people to do is, which I think sometimes recruiters can end up being laser focused on, is just, I placed Josh in a job, right? And that's like, that's what you see. Whereas what you're talking about is like, hey guys, um, you know, what I'm gonna help you understand here is truly the impact that you're making by finding these people and putting these people in these seats. And you're doing that by one, which I absolutely love the idea of, you know, bringing in your clients to talk about, you know, the story of by you helping us get this person, this is what it's resulted in, um, and this is what it means. But you're also then, you know, equipping people with the knowledge, which I really rate because a lot of people, um, don't understand. I think it should be something in, in like schools, it's taught, you know what I mean, in terms of like P&L, uh, all those things. And I really like that, that, you know, thinking about when that, that hiring manager or when that person you've got relationship with is asked, Josh, why, why have we spent that money with, uh, with X agency, that you know that they're going to be able to answer that because of the conversations that you have And to be able to really visualize that, or even understand that that's the sort of conversations that they're going to have, is like really important, right? But then, like you said, by developing that, I'm then asking those, you know, really smart questions of like, yeah, like, what impact have you had on the business? Rather than just like, are you enjoying your job?

How's it going, right? And let's kind of take a few steps ahead, and the impact of my team— they grow as people. Yeah, so like you said, at school we don't learn about interest rates, debt, finance, etc., right? Which is obviously an everyday occurrence in our life. Um, so if my team can walk away— and I know full well people won't be here for 10 years, right? They won't be here when we exit in 7 years, whatever. But if I know full well that you've left and you're part of our alumni down the line, and you go, do you know what, I learned how to be a better recruiter, I made some money, I did good, I made an impact, but more importantly, I grew as a person, I've learned more about life and just general business. And it equips them. If they want to go set up a competitor, and great, do it, right? I won't be very happy, but that's life and that's part of the business. But if it means that they grow as humans the other side— and it took me years to learn that or think like that. And I owe a lot to my old CEO. He brought me into the boardroom probably 2 years into my recruitment sort of career when I set up the business internally after doing it. Um, and I have a lot to thank for him for that because I was sitting there listening to conversations, always old white men just talking about business, P&L, costs, why, and listen to the CFO talk, get his view on it, because he didn't really care about how many people we recruited. He cared about the bottom line, top line, uh, in and out, right? So if I could expose our team to that as quickly as possible, even if they're 27 years old or 40 years old, um, I think it just goes a long way in their personal life.

Yeah, no, agreed. And also then, like you just said, which will Keen to get your, um, just journey with it now, but then like the stories that you then tell your customers and potential customers is just entirely different, right? You're talking about not that we play like this, uh, we worked with EasyJet and we placed all these people. You're saying we did that, but also because we found those people, they were able to, um, you know, prevent 30 different attacks from like— do you know what I mean? You're then telling those stories. And that's just like worlds apart from saying, hey Josh, like, yeah, I can get people for you. Like, yeah, I can find these people that do that, rather than saying, hey, I can find you 3 account executives and this is the impact you can expect they can make because this is what's happened, uh, with X customer. So I love that. Let's talk about— because it's something that, you know, people always interested in, interested in, and, you know, want to hear people's experience with. But, you know, you've continued to go on an upward trajectory, uh, NFI-wise, but Do you mind sharing like what has been, you know, consistently, uh, the most effective way for Trident to, um, consistently win good quality business? And, and, you know, on the client acquisition side, like what, what does that look like for you guys? What's been the most effective channels? I can imagine, you know, we're talking about you guys being completely committed to being domain experts and all that. That's had a obviously huge impact. And I know you do things like podcasts and networking events, but like, yeah, what's been the most consistent way of you acquiring good quality business and consistently doing that? Because that's key to you guys growing the NFI.

So, uh, newsflash, we don't cold call, okay? My team don't cold call, right? Um, there's a number of reasons why, um, but you try and pick up the phone to a CISO, hey, I've got a good security analyst here for you, just, just on the market, within budget, but they're like, come on, man, like, I'm trying to protect the business here. If I'm on the phone to you as a headhunter and we get hacked, I get fired, right? So there's other ways and channels to that person, um, so Um, you mentioned, or you touched on a few things there. Uh, for us, the most important parts are, yes, your domain expertise and staying niche, super, super niche, right? And it's really difficult to tell, especially a rookie recruiter or someone who's got 2 years from another agency that goes, oh, hey Josh, I know I do, um, uh, SOC recruitment and I build MSSPs, um, but they want me to recruit a pentester. Can I, can I do it? I know I'll fill it, I'll work later, I won't do it now, I won't put— I'm like, no. And it's really difficult, right? Because they're like, yeah, but that'll make me a $12K fee, which will make me $2,500 commission. I'm like, no. And it's really hard to— especially at the start— to go, trust me, follow the process, and it will work out for you. Um, that's, uh, but that's a consistent message that we send from our— from me and Charlie down to our heads of departments, down to seniors, to consultants, associates. Um, even our marketing is super consistent in terms of like being really, really niche. Um, And, uh, that's a message where it's not, it's not convincing them, it's just like, trust me, that it's worked, stay in your niche, right? So niches, yeah, definitely one. Um, this year we've really, really doubled down. We did it a lot last year, but we hired Lottie, who's our marketing manager, who's epic. Um, and we spend as much money as possible and time and resource on pushing the brand out there, doing these networking events. Um, but then the events are all well and good, and we do lots of like exec search kind of, or exec roundtables, and that's all well and good, but then what's the follow-up? What's the purpose? What's the point? This isn't just a piss-up for a load of CISOs who just want to like drink on our free bar tab. Um, it's what change are you putting in place off the back of this meetup? So the first one would have been about diversity, and it's like not necessarily just gender, but it could be neurodiversity, it could be veterans, or whatever it'd be. But then what Lottie will do, and what whoever runs the event will be, right, let's do a follow-up report, let's get it out to everyone, and then 3 months later, what have you done? What action have you put into place? Um, so those networking events are really, really, really key for us. And then, um, and then it's just referrals. So we've got quite a good name, quite a good brand because we spend so much money on it and we spend so much time and effort onto it. But, um, almost— I think I looked yesterday, it's like 88% of our business is inbound.

Wow.

So, and there have been challenges about with that this year, right? Because it's been a tough year economically, etc. So, um, we've had to flip that, uh, into more outbound stuff and to really push the message out a little bit more, um, and do more outbound engagements. But, um, but yeah, so I'd say super, super niche and like actually live it as well. Because I know so many recruiters are like, yeah, I'm niche. And then you see them post something else and they come to interview for me and they're like, yeah, I'm really niche. And I pull up their LinkedIn, I go, what's that then? They're like, oh well, it's just like a really good client that wanted— and they only give it to me exclusively. Um, the networking, the marketing, the events. And then the last piece that we do, uh, we started launching it. I launched one pre-COVID which is called the Waterloo Cyber Club, which you saw we host on Wednesday. A group of 700 military and law enforcement veterans who work in cybersecurity in the UK. So we had an event last on Wednesday, 100 people turned up, and it's, um, we give a little talk, but it's all about, uh, the two things, the two kind of similarities that one has— veterans in cyber— but about seeing old friends and just networking and just, um, having a beer with people, right? And again, a very familiar environment for people. What that does though, um, is that again, it puts us at the center of the, of the industry and the communities. So we've launched our sales engineering one, we've launched CTI one, we've launched Microsoft security one. Um, and the idea is we've got closed LinkedIn groups, we've got closed Discord group Um, and sometimes it's not meetups. Some of the Microsoft security guys don't want to meet up. That's cool, that's fine, you don't do that. What we do instead is maybe like a technical online virtual capture the flag or something like that. So, um, the community is really important. We call them the clubs. But again, it puts us right at the center of the industry.

This podcast is proudly partnered with Vincere, the all-in-one recruitment agency software that over 20,000 recruiters trust daily. We're also partnered with the award-winning 1UP Sales, the sales and motivation platform that enables you to maximize the potential of your teams. We love partnering with both of these organizations because they share our mission in helping you get the most out of your people and your business. You can get exclusive offers because you listen to this podcast and get up to 10% off the usage price forever. Use the link in the show notes To get your hands on that, let's get back to the episode. So yeah, you've worked really hard then. I mean, 88% inbound, that's a lot high, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, and would you— are you including referrals in that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

So talk to us a bit, like, talk to us a bit about that. If I want to get to that position, you know, like, what are going to be the, the biggest levers that I can, you know, lean into, leverage in, in the long term that's going to help me get to that point? Like, if I want to get to a point where nearly 90% of my business is either coming referral, inbound, or that— you might have just, uh, spoken about it, but like, you know, if I'm working towards that, what is it— the— what are the main levers I need to, you know, keep pulling each day from, you know, what I need to make sure my teams are doing, what I'm doing to really be able to get to that point? You've mentioned marketing, but as an actual individual recruiter, what can I do every single day that, you know, we're playing the long game here. You're talking about 2 years, 3 years for domain expertise. We're not talking about 3 months and 6 months. What every single day, what do I have to be doing that hopefully in the long run will mean I can say, yeah, 70% of my business comes from referral?

Okay, so, uh, when we first started Trident, I was on my own, uh, January until Charlie joined me, the co-founder. Um, just got 6 weeks, 8 weeks after I went into lockdown Um, so I made it on my to-do list, my plan. Yeah, you had your candidate calls, you had your client work, etc. The first thing I did every morning at 8 o'clock was— and this is very rudimentary, rudimentary and very basic— was just repost a news article about cybersecurity. As simple as that, right? Get your name on LinkedIn. So when people are— because it's force of habit, right? Even the professionals don't use Instagram anymore, they're straight on LinkedIn. Everyone's on the toilet in the morning, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. So how do they see Josh Keighley on their— on the thing and they're liking it, sharing it? If you can go one better and start writing your own articles and things, then great. But more importantly, every single morning, 8 o'clock, get something out there. So create your content, and it just becomes a part of you. It's a habit, um, and it builds your own personal brand. So that's your personal marketing. Um, you can develop that, like I said, into content and, and other bits. But, um, and then what we try and get everybody to do, which is, hey, you are a domain expert in new business for XDR companies in cybersecurity in America. Okay, cool. That's your niche within a niche. Now go build a podcast series with it. Go do a Trident Talks, uh, not quite as popular as this one, but, um, go and build a series, work with our marketing team, and what that will allow you to do is connect with the very senior people in the industry, um, to obviously invite them on. And it's a conversation that's not recruitment. So, um, the two main things that we almost focus everybody on that just joins us from day one is your personal marketing and then go build your podcast series. And you might not be that good at interviewing people, that's totally fine. We'll practice, we'll coach you, we'll teach you through it. But the whole point is, is that it gives you a reason to be in someone's inbox, and, uh, whether it's a LinkedIn email, um, other than recruitment. So you'll see it all the time, we'll have rookies that just join and then we'll say, right, your podcast series is gonna go live November 1st, it's gonna end, end of November, I need 8 episodes from you. You've got 2 months to get all of those 8 people recorded and invited, etc. Um, so But what I'm really doing there is I'm asking you just to go and network with the very senior people in your industry and just treat them all like candidates. They're not clients. Don't put them on this massive pedestal up here. And because what I've seen before and what we used to do in my old agency was you only do candidates for 6 months because you're new, you're not allowed to talk to a client yet. All that happens then is that the client's going up here, totally the top of the mountain. They're like, and then they've got to start talking to clients like, holy shit, like, he's up there or she's up there. So treat everyone like a candidate And but use that podcast series, that Trident Talks, and not always that, but that's our kind of medium, if you like, to network with very senior people in your industry and just befriend them and just get to know them and be genuinely curious and interested. Um, and then that'll— that will— that's how we build referrals. So very senior candidates in the industry. Um, that's been easier to do this year than ever before because there are more senior people on the market because the economy is so fucked. Especially in the US, right? Every day I'm talking to VPs of sales, and they are good people. They hit their number, and it's sometimes— it's not necessarily their fault. They're not the B players, C players. They're still good A players, but might be like a company restructure or whatever you put it down to. But that this year is— I think will rocket ship us next year. Yeah, because we've got all those, all those conversations, right? And again, they're not always about recruitment.

And is it key there just to make sure— yeah, do all those things, but then make sure that every VP of sales understands what Trident do and the problems that you solve.

And yeah, it goes back to that boardroom conversation, right? Yeah, of having business conversations. So when they say, oh, I worked at this company, I'm like, okay, cool, what do they do? And they'll be like, oh, we were a, um, a tax surface monitoring company. I'm like, okay, cool, who did you help? And then what was the impact to your customers? And then you go deeper into the conversation about business, not, well, what was your number, what was your quota, etc. So then We're like, well, that's what we do at Trident, right? We go super deep into the business conversation. Yes, we need domain expertise, and I know what an attack service monitoring platform does, but then I know their competitors. I'm like, well, your competitors do it that way, so how come you did it this way? And then you can start having like deeper conversations with them, and then they come off the phone going, hopefully going, shit, that person knows what they're talking about. And we barely spoke about recruitment. And then, um, the other thing that we do post that kind of conversation is we'll set very clear expectations. So you're not not going to hear from me ever again, but what I will do is have weekly check-ins with you, just touch base, even if I've got nothing to help you in terms of if you're looking for a job, that is. Um, we're very, very big on just constant touch points with everybody.

So, um, yeah, so let's go into— because I know you're on a real journey here to get to a point where, you know, there's some sort of business event, right, for Trident?

Yep.

So let— I think, you know, from what I took from our um, prep call in this is what you see is a quite valuable part of that journey is this other product line, the RPO piece, right? Because sure, you know, that's more like guaranteed recurring revenue, um, and that hopefully will give you, you know, even more chance of getting a better multiple or, you know, um, more actual value in your business or enterprise value. So talk to us a bit about that. When did you start that product? How long have you, um, been providing that product? And then I'll hit you with some questions on what's been hard about it, the conversations I've had with people that have experienced that. Like, how long have you been doing that, that product and service?

About 2 years.

2 years?

Yeah, not long.

And then just to frame out to people, typically what that looks like is, um, I know it may vary, but the, the crux of it, it's a company will agree with you for a minimum term that they're going to pay you X per month to, uh, provide X deliverables, X number of people. I don't know, you know, the deliverables. And then I think you said it might vary, but that's the core of it. So you've got guaranteed revenue there, they got guaranteed resource. And then I think you mentioned that per placement you might also charge something. That might not be for everyone, but you might charge, and I'm assuming that's going to be reduced. And then, yeah, there's— it's a period of time, so it's like guaranteed, uh, like, just talk to us a bit about the crux of that product.

Yeah, yeah, so, uh, you're spot on. So yeah, we will charge, uh, typical customer, um, that we'll target— give you some very practical examples. A 50-person software company, cybersecurity software company, just had $15 million in Series A funding, and they're very founder-led everything. Founder-led sales, founder-led hiring, founder-led software building, everything, right? So then we'll come in either through the venture capital firm that's funded them. They want their ROI ASAP, right? They want a real big multiple return in 3, 4 years, um, particularly if they're a private equity firm. Um, but, um, then they'll go, right, bring Trident in, and we'll liaise with the founder, or directly, or through the funder. Um, and then we'll say, right, we'll be in-house talent team. We could also do HR and people function for you as well. So I built HRISs and things like that. Um, we have a very clear— it's called like a people framework. Okay, so it's acronym is SOURCE. Um, we go into detail later, or you maybe put it in the link and I'll share it for free. I don't mind giving it to anyone. Um, and what that does is it puts in step every single, um, kind of like, uh, uh, I suppose like an ATS, HRIS, etc., like that sort of thing in place, um, for where you are as a business on your journey. So it's like a scorecard. Yeah, like almost like a checklist, right?

Right.

Things that a founder would not think about, right? So how do you build programs with universities? How do you build relationships with them to get more graduate software engineers in later down the line? There are things that are immediate and there are things that may be further down the line. So you need to get your LinkedIn page up and running. All that kind of stuff, right? So we'll put that people framework in place as part of the service. We'll charge them a set fee every month, and then, uh, we will charge them a percentage, a reduced percentage of every placement that we make, right? What we found the challenges of that were, especially the first one, we only did a set— we only did a set fee every month. So hey, you pay us $20,000 a month. What we found—

be like as many deliverable, like as many people.

Yeah, yeah. And we'll say, hey, we'll get you 2 people a month for that. What we found was, um, our consult— our recruiters were less engaged and inclined to go and build, uh, put 5 people in there, um, because that wouldn't be their sole job, right? Because it's only $20,000 a month. I've got probably 5, 6 other clients over here that want like a couple of people a month, etc. So I've— what we found was, um, without that percentage of every placement, the consultant, after a couple of deals in that client or after a couple of placements were just losing interest because they're like, well, the next ones are just free. Um, so, um, I had a very honest conversation with that client, and that's when we introduced a small percentage, single-figure percentage of each deal. And it's just an incentivization so I could take that consultant and say, right, those clients over there are now with another consultant. You're now solely focused on this. But then the client will commit for 18 months, right? And what that 18 months is all about is what typically when you get Series A, and just sort of talking sort of theoretical, that $15 million is due for like the runway will be 18 months. And then kind of 12 months into that, they then spend the last 6 months, uh, raising Series B. Depending on how the performance of the business is, etc. Not always the case because they might have some revenue from customers, but, um, that's why we'll go, right, 18 months will get you through your Series A, you'll get your first few customers, use cases, etc. Um, but, uh, it's tough. It's, um, it's tough to win because you have to convince that founder to spend a lot of money with you and not build an in-house talent team. Why wouldn't they do that? Um, and it's typically because they don't have the expertise, um, or they then get the whole of Trident to lean on if the volume kicks up. Um, but we're on one now in the US, uh, in Tennessee, and we feel like such a part of the business. They've shipped us laptops, we've got all the t-shirts, the hats, we've got their bloody mouse mats, everything. We've been over there a number of times, we're in their XCOM, so their, um, board meetings and things like that, and they treat us like an employee. So we're on their Teams chats, everything, um, that's— so we're so immersed in their business. So it's not the RPO or MSP model that people know of, like Resource Solutions at Microsoft Um, we don't use outsourced agencies when we're on site. Um, so it's, it's really— I think it's the— my most favorite part of recruitment, or the favorite kind of method or means, because my consultants, when they are internal, they learn so much more than just putting people's bums on seats. They learn why they have to speak to all the stakeholders. And also then when they go back to kind of contingent recruitment, they, they can kind of empathize with the talent acquisition manager on site. I know why you're not giving me feedback. I, I can visualize the kind of up-the-chain communication and probably why you're not getting feedback on CVs and stuff.

So, so it's a couple things, and then because I want to make sure we touch on then how you've really committed to building infrastructure this year. Yeah, so just quickly on this then, because I think people find this interesting. Um, so firstly, what, what have you found to end up being like the typical, uh, contract length for these things? What has ended up being— I know, I know it varies, but like if you were to look at the— all the different ways that you've done that with different companies, is it 6 months? Is it 12 months? Is it 3 months? What's ended up being like typically where, you know, where people have ended up committing for X period of time out of interest?

Yeah, so the initial commitment was always 3 months.

Okay.

Yeah, with, um, a month break clause, like a 4-week break clause. Uh, we've had, uh, some finish at 7 months last year, but that's because the firm were bought by private equity firm, so completely out of our hands. We've got one now that's committed for 18 months. Okay, so the contract is 18 months, um, and if they, uh, pull out before that, then we charge the full 18 months.

Um, so you should normally start 3 months.

Yeah, 3 months is initial, uh, engagement. Um, the first one we ever done was 2 weeks, right? Because I said, look, you've never— and they'd never worked with us— so you've never worked with us, here's a 2-week, almost like a try before you buy, and it's 2 weeks. So, um, we're still on that contract now.

Okay, right. Okay, that's interesting. And then Uh, just so we understand, what would you say is the main reason why people are buying that? What's like the main problem that you're, uh, because is it, is it cost or nah? Do you know what I mean? Because I feel like some people can just lean into like, this is way cheap, like if you do it this way it's way cheaper, Josh, like work with me. Yeah, but I don't feel like that's necessarily the leading indicator.

It's not cheap, it's not cheaper, right? It's not. There's 3 kind of things that, uh, a founder internal HR will look at, right? It's the speed of hire, the volume of hire, and the cost of hire, right? Typical 3 things. Again, this comes down to the business acumen of understanding the business, right, and what motivates them. The cost of hire is going to be expensive, so forget about that. So we need the customers who have just committed to their investors and said, we're going to build a 50-person team in the US, so we need the speed of hire and we need the volume of hire, so as soon as possible. So the reason why they come to us is then they go well, these guys can do it because they've got the communities and the market reach. We're just going to go straight for them. And it might cost us $800K and not $450K if we have an internal team, but we've got almost guaranteed— we've got use cases. And we let them talk to old clients. Hey, ask the VP of HR there what we did, or the founder there what we did. Um, so that's interesting.

Yeah, so it's like, yes, it's those two things. So I think sometimes people— that is a perception that it's like cheaper, but actually what you're saying is like, actually it's not, but we can solve these two problems for you, is we can get you the people that you need, that your investors are going to expect you to, to have a lot more quicker. And like you just said, like, by, you know, partnering with you, instantly we get access to all your network and all those types of things.

But what's the conflict if— or what's the problem if you, um, if you don't get us on board to hire that volume and the quality as fast as possible? Um, you run out of runway. So you— because you're— the company's overheads, uh, you've only got 18 months, right? You need people in as soon as possible because salespeople take time to ramp up. Um, so, um, yeah, the investors are there encouraging you to spend— you spend it sustainably and wisely, but you need to spend it to get people in. That's the whole point of getting investment, so you can build the product, release new features on it, and go and build a commercial team to take it to market.

Um, and then just final two points. One, how do you, how do you structure commission for that? Like, what does that look like?

Yeah, yeah, we don't change it. Whether that changes in the future, I don't know.

Um, so basically So if I— so just so we understand that, so like if I sold, uh, would it— would it only if I sold it, or would it depend on who sold it? So like, let's say I sold to cybersecurity firm, yeah, 3-month partnership, yep, it was $20,000 a month, and then it was 8% per placement. So you're saying what unlocks my commission is like, so $20,000 goes next to my name on the board straight away for every month, yep, for that is each month, yep. And then each time I do a placement, that adds up. Yeah, and then I just get a percentage of that like you normally would.

Yeah, yeah. So we pay— I'll tell you our commission scheme. We pay 20% flat on everything. That's quarterly, but we pay monthly, but resets quarterly. Um, anything over $45K in that quarter, so you're a $180 biller, it's 30%, right? Once you've hit your target in the year, it's 40% flat, right?

Right.

So we've got people hitting their target July 1st this year, and me and Charlie were like, holy fuck, um, that was a mistake. But the whole point of that and the reasoning behind it is, um, it's just all profit. You set a target on someone's performance and capability, but also you need to make a profit on someone, right? Typically in London, a recruiter costs you 10K a month, easy sum, just a bit below, a bit above, whatever, but typically 10K a month. So you go, right, consultants in London need to make 120. So if we give everyone a target 150, that 30K is just profit. So why do we want to keep it? The bank, give it, give it back to them. So if you do 150, anything over that's 40% plus your salary, you're typically taking home about 61 to 70%. Of every deal you do.

Um, so those partnerships, yeah, like, so sorry, yeah, we'll go against my— that would be like what I'd put in.

Yeah, yeah, it's all yours, it's all yours. And look, and like some people are going, whoa, you're crazy, like you can't keep— I'm like, why, why not? Give it back to him. And also typically these RPOs or talent as a service models are harder. Yeah, you're always on, especially if you're doing US.

You've got to deal with— that's the thing, like I have heard people say, like you said, you speak with all the stakeholders, there's positives to that, but then there's negatives to that, that they expect you can't hide.

Right? You're the person there.

Yeah, you have to deliver. So, and then just the final thing on that then, what— because normally when I speak to people that do that, the, the, the one of the big common challenges is then like capacity and like figuring that out. Because do you know what I mean? I don't know if you've run into that, because it's like you can sell that, but it's like, fuck, I've now got to deliver.

Yeah, yeah, uh, no, luckily we haven't come into that yet.

Okay.

One of our clients, I have one consultant on it, and she's doing between 5 and 8 hires a week. Wow, right?

Permal contract.

Permal. It's unbelievable, right? But they are— uh, we've got the process using that framework. Slick. It's super slick. The only time it takes a little bit longer in an extra stage is when we're hiring a C-suite or VP there. So from April to now, she's taken that company from 40 to 170 heads. That's mad, right?

What's this framework then? The sourcing?

The source? Yeah, yeah.

What does that stand for?

Uh, set up, outcome— I can't remember. I'll put it into the thing. But yeah, and then we go into each— under each one, it's super detailed. Um, in, uh, like the kind of actionable points you need to take under each acronym.

So the whole— so the whole point of that is we're gonna implement SOURCE, which is our framework to help you become effective employers and not hire as many people.

And the hardest thing there is, um, particularly if they're a little bit more mature, is no, no, we always do 4 interview stages. And you're like, yeah, but you do that, uh, or they want to do an HR interview as well if there's an HR person. You're like, but what's the point of us? So it takes time to build that trust.

Yeah, but you're gonna have to share that with me then.

Oh, I have to share that because— yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%, you can use it.

Okay, so as we come to the end here, talk to me about, um, infrastructure, like the, the journey that you've been on, right? Because I think you shared with me, you've, uh, so your responsibility typically has been like finance, operations, talent, uh, running like half, um, half of the team. Yeah. I think you said, you know, you're building everything for, um, exit, or like, you know, you know, you're building the enterprise value of your business, right? Yeah. And I said, what does that mean? So I think you said this year— correct me if I'm wrong— you've hired a people manager, marketing, finance. You've got a chairman who's from your industry. Yeah, I believe, um, board advisor. And this is all to, you know, have these things now so you can grow into the infrastructure that you need to be a 25, 30-plus person company.

Yeah.

Talk to us just a bit about some of the, the key things there and, and why this infrastructure bit is so important.

Yeah, yeah, cool. Absolutely. So, uh, The bit of context for you, so from since we started in 2020, we've doubled in headcount and revenue every year. Granted, it was 3 years, right? But, um, at the start of this year, we were, I think, 14 heads, and we're doing £1.8 million in just fees. I think it's about £3 million total with contract revenue, etc. Um, but we were like almost like a Jenga block. We're getting fatter at the top, and at the bottom, which is your foundations— talk about back office operations— it was just getting— it just didn't sort of grow. It's all on me and Charlie. Um, so we were like, well, we're going to fall over at some point, right? And we're going to keep growing. And then what happens is you almost convey a belt of consultants. You lose them as fast as you can gain them, right? So, um, it was— this year was, we'll grow in revenue even though the economy's fucked, um, but we'll steadily grow in headcount. But more importantly, we'll get our finance manager, people manager, marketing manager. We'll promote people internally to heads of, and we coach and develop them, which we've got now, which means that me and Charlie can focus on other things like developing new offices and growing, etc. Um, and, uh, and we do a lot of BD, me and Charlie. But, um, yeah, so that was super, super important because I've seen it many times where companies just fall over, uh, because they haven't got that— they're still all founder-led or back office, right? Or it's outsourced. And, um, our finance was outsourced for 3 years, and I thought that was, uh, it was doing all right. You bring in someone in-house who then goes, wow, like, where's the process? Where's the— where, like, where's the structure? Where's your end of months? And, um, because you're so focused on just getting revenue in the door, right? Um, so that's been like a godsend for us. And the idea was, was those 3 key hires, they're smarter than us, like way smart at what they do. They're unbelievable. You go into a meeting room with our marketing manager and it's like, don't say anything stupid, don't say anything, because she's so, so smart, right? Um, so that's what the plan has been this year. We've hired a chairman. I think— when's this going out?

Uh, be like towards the end of October, mid-October.

Fine, so I can announce it because it comes out next week. Uh, so Mike Susong is his name. Uh, ex-Ranger, ex-CIA, set up one of the first cybersecurity companies in 2007, sold it to FireEye for just under $300 million. Uh, like the OG of cyber, right? Absolute legend of a bloke, super humble, really under the radar. Um, I don't know what he's seen in us, but he's joining us as a chairman and he's helping us, uh, kind of really press into the US. So he's got all the contacts in the venture capital world. Um, and, uh, we officially launched our US, uh, function 1st of September. We've got 2 more people joining us from competitors. Um, and we're out there in a couple of weeks. But the point is, bringing someone like that in is— that's a lot of clout, right, to bring him in with his background. Then hopefully clients will be like, well, they're obviously doing something right if he's put his brand and his name against us. So yeah, that's why it's so important.

Um, just on that, just quickly, like, yeah, there's got to be— he's got to be— there's got to be some sort of commercial interest, surely? Like, have you given equity to that person?

Equity?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he sits on your boards then?

100%.

Um, and equity in the business?

Yeah. And we give him— we give him partnership agreements of any kind of doors he opens for us.

Okay.

Yeah, he doesn't need money, right? But, um, I think it's really fair, right? Get some skin in the game, um, and then he's fully committed to us.

Yeah.

Um, I've seen it where board advisors join but there's no commission, there's no equity, and it doesn't work because we— you don't take them seriously and they don't take you seriously. So no one comes prepared to board meetings, board meetings don't happen. Um, so it's— you have to put your ego aside and also just suck it up. You're gonna have to give equity away, but then the percentage that we keep will be worth way more down the line because the business will grow and accelerate quicker. And just to touch on that, we put a— and same thing this year with foundations, we released an EMI scheme for the team, right? So at the moment it's 10%. There are triggers that you get, uh, for a consultant to hit their 1% quota, right? I want everybody to have a percent of the business, all the founding members. I remember— I know we're short on time, but I remember a story. Um, I was in a— I went for lunch or dinner with a client in Dallas. They just sold to a private equity firm. It's one of the ones who've done the talent as a service for, uh, I think it's off like just under 300 million. And, um, I said, what was like— how did it make you feel? And he was like, yeah, just like, yeah. And he's ex-US Marine, right? So he's like, I don't really care about the money, even though he rocked up in like an all blacked-out Aston Martin. Um, but he said the best feeling was 13 of their founding members instantly overnight millionaires. And he was like, they didn't come from money. And he's like, then we went for a big dinner to celebrate, and it was like, oh, who's buying a swimming pool? Who's doing— who's taking the kids away for like a once-in-a-lifetime round-the-world trip? And he was like, that for him was like the best feeling in the world. So How do I get that? How does Charlie— how do we replicate that? Because that's what I want for my team, um, as well as being better business people, better humans when we— when they come through the kind of Trident machine. Um, it's— if you're with us from the start and you kind of finish with us, then you should be getting a chunk of change for that journey because it's fucking hard, right? Especially this year.

Love it. People manager, marketing, finance, chairman from industry. I love that approach. And then also then, yeah, setting up those types of things to Was it the long, uh, long-term and, um, uh, long-term incentive plans? Yeah, those types of things, right, to think about. And this is, you know, you guys growing up as a business, we're growing, we're scaling, and it's having these things. I really like the analogy of that. Yeah, visualizing a Jenga and like building. Yeah, you could have just gone over.

Every time you add on to the top, which is a new consultant, a brick's getting taken out the bottom unless you've got a really strong foundation there, which is your people, marketing, finance.

Love that. Josh, been a pleasure, mate. Love your energy. Thanks for having me. Really excited to, to see where Trident is over the next couple of years. Thanks for coming on the pod, mate.

Appreciate it. Thanks, mate.