Nicholas Carman - Dealing with the expectations and pressures of maintaining the top biller status.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Nick Carman, who is a partnerships director at a recruitment business called McDonald Company. And McDonald Company are leaders in real estate recruitment. Nick, thank you for joining me.

I'd say my pleasure, but I'm pretty nervous about it, so I'm not quite sure.

You have nothing to be nervous about. This has been a long time coming, hasn't it? We sort of flirt with the idea.

Yeah, I suppose I'm a bit of a fanboy and I think what you're doing is brilliant. And I think recruitment is really, really short of internal champions. And so I think what you're doing and what I think it means for people who listen to it, I think is fantastic.

How did you stumble across it, out of interest?

Uh, so I'm pretty late, uh, late to arriving at sort of podcasts. It's within the last sort of 12 months, say, and I suppose I just got a bit bored of listening to streaming music and I thought, you know what, yeah, maybe I can see if I can do that.

So I, I, it's the same sort of thing for me really, that more so on like just stumbling across the recruitment podcast because I had the podcast I listened to like business mindset, all that sort of stuff, and then I just got bored of one one day and then I was like, recruitment, let's, what can I learn about recruitment?

So yeah, I did the same, I just put it into Spotify, recruitment, and And yeah, there wasn't a lot. Yeah, this young guy with specs, what's this guy gonna know?

When I looked, it was like, it's just a lot of old people talking about recruitment. And obviously, yeah, as a sort of young 20-year-old, it didn't really resonate. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But no, honestly, absolute pleasure. I think, yeah, I know we've sort of been flirting with getting you booked in, so that's definitely my bad. But really looking forward to diving into your long recruitment career? Because you've been in the game for a while, haven't you? Have you been in the recruitment industry?

13, coming up 14 years.

14 years, long time that.

It doesn't feel like it.

You look young though. I'm 36. I don't think that it's aged you.

Well, we're on audio, aren't we? We can lie. So yeah.

Did you have hair when you started recruitment?

Uh, yes.

Really?

Yeah, in the early days. In my earliest days, we're doing rec to rec, so that's probably where it went. Really?

Yeah. Wow. Okay, cool. Cool. So look, as you know then, where I always like to start, Nick, where I'd love to sort of start this podcast is, is, yeah, how did you enter the world of recruitment? Let's start there and we'll go from there.

So I left uni in 2004 with a philosophy degree and just no, no idea what I wanted to do. You know, I'd gone, I'd gone through all the graduate recruitment of going to see finance or law. Yeah. Or, you know, just, I just like an absolute sheep just followed what all my mates were doing and went along, and every time I failed at the question, why are you here, what do you want to do? And I just didn't get it. I didn't understand. I had no concept of what I wanted to do. So I went back home and I picked up a first job in the village I worked in as an estate agent. Wow.

Where's home for you?

Near Chester.

Okay, cool.

And I picked up a—

Big houses around there, right? Or was it not nice back then? Was it not?

Yes, it was all right. I mean, I was on £12,000, so the idea of a big house to me was a pretty distant prospect. And I was I was doing that for a few months and it was comfortable. Yeah. It was, you know, and my mates at the time thought I had the best job ever. Really? It was an office job. It was an office job, but I was the only one in the office. Yeah. So if I needed a haircut back then, if I needed a haircut, I'd shut the office and go, or if I fancied lunch.

Oh, it was just you in there?

Yeah, it was just me.

Really?

Yeah, it was just me. I mean, I was 21 in a regional estate agency on my own.

What, and they just trusted you straight out the bat after you got the job?

I guess they couldn't find anyone else. So muggins it, got it.

And how long did you do that for?

About 8 months.

And then?

Until my mate, who'd gone to school to do graphic design, he'd put his CV on Monster or something like that, looking for graphic design jobs. And all he got were calls about recruitment saying, "Oh, this is just like graphic design. It is exactly the same. Come in, have a chat." And he fell for it.

Really?

And he got this job in Manchester with an oil and gas recruiter, and he said, "Mate," Yeah, these guys are Muppets. Yeah, they think they've sort of struck gold with me, but I can't afford the rent. If I get you a job, will you go halves with me on the rent? I was like, yes, wow, sign me up. And so he got me an interview the next day. I went along to the first stage and I thought it was amazing. This is what I suppose I'm fascinated about now is that what people might know about recruitment or what they might think about they know about recruitment, because back then I didn't know there was any industry that was like this. And so after that first interview, I went back home and started, you know, sort of got out Google, you know, what is recruitment, and tried to learn a bit about it. And at the time, I thought I was applying for other recruitment jobs, and what had happened was I—

It's not very clear, is it, when you sort of start on that journey? It's a bit weird.

I can't remember the name, but there was a green and black rec-to-rec who I sort of sent my CV through, looking for all the industries I thought I wanted to go work for. So I was looking to go into marketing recruitment, or finance, or legal recruitment. Anyway, I got I got this call and this guy from London, I was in Chester, just said, "Oh yeah, we know this market really, really well. Definitely, we've got it nailed." And he set me up with like 6 interviews the very next day. And I got through to the third interview during that day and I got a call from the other guy saying, "Are you free now? If so, you can come in. Our MD's free this afternoon and he's interested to meet you." So I was like, I'm not enjoying this interview, Lark.

Really?

And I think I'd come out of an interview with Computer Futures whereby I'd been sat across this table with this guy who just kept thrusting his Rolex in my face. And I think he used the phrase that we're the sort of business that if you're afraid to get your bollocks on the table and say, look at this, we're not for you. And I think— And I thought, you know what, you're bang on, you are not for me. Oh, that is so good. And so I sort of called up the rec direct and I say, I'm really sorry, mate, but I'm gonna go with this other one. Yeah. But don't worry, and don't worry, 'cause I think they're recruiting. And I thought at the time I was really helping him out and telling the rec direct that there might be a vacancy. And obviously at the time he must have thought, yeah. So whoever that is, I don't know if that guy remembers it or not, but I am really sorry.

Sorry. And that— so then that was what, McDonald's? No, no, no, that was that you joined Oscar, right?

Yes. So to be really— so, uh, I am a massive fan of, of the— that I think it's about sort of 18 months I spent with Oscar Associates, uh, but it's a, uh, after— shortly after I left, the whole business had, you know, went through a huge change.

Yeah.

And it's, and it's, uh, I think it's, I think it's now a really, really successful company.

It's great online, um, but it's—

that's not that, you know, that's not the same individuals I was, I was working for. So my story is quite different, but I just want to, you know, yeah, I know, that's fair enough.

So, and then, so what market did you end up in?

So they were in oil and gas, it, and recto-rec.

Oh really?

And so the, uh, the recto-rec lady, uh, is called Maggie Epstein, and if you're in Manchester and you want to find— I think she's first-rate. And she, she, um, she interviewed me for the business and said, right, yeah, I think we're going to get on really well, you know, would you fancy coming to work for me, and again, you have no idea what Rec2Rec is. I was like, great, great, let's do that. And I did, I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunity those guys gave me, but it was wild west.

Was it?

18 months Rec2Rec? 18 months of Rec2Rec. And it was not the market that I think I learned the most about, it was the people I worked with and for.

Really?

'Cause back then it was run by a guy who was an ex-sales trainer, So he'd done his hard graft in the '80s and he'd got some really clear views on what sales is, how it's worked. And so my first day, you're given a script, you're given a full folder. So I'm doing this with my hands now, it's probably like sort of like about 6 or 7 centimeters deep, this folder of every circumstance that's ever gonna come up, you've got a script how to answer it. And your job was every night was to read a new circumstance learn it, and then we had every Wednesday and Friday mornings at 8 o'clock were run-throughs, role plays. Yeah. And everyone, hold on, no matter how experienced you are, everyone role played. And that was fantastic to learn a bit about the science of recruitment. I think sort of, I probably got slightly different views now, but that instilled in me a, a huge amount of discipline, I think, about how to do it. And when we weren't role-playing, we played this game in the morning called Articulate. You've heard of this? So this is like a card game whereby you're given— it's two people playing it. You've got a card in front of you and it's got a word on it which you cannot say, but you've got to get the other person to guess what that word is. So you've got to describe it without using that word or five other words that are similar to it. And the idea is that you play this game for— to get your brain in gear in the morning, to get you up and going and ready to start talking to people straight away.

Yeah.

And these guys had played this game so often and for so long that they'd burnt out all the cards. And the MD now wrote his own cards every day to get people thinking about it.

Wow.

Keep it challenging.

Yeah, so like super disciplined, like—

Super, but also super competitive. I mean, this— this thing would get really heated.

Would it?

Really heated. And it was great. It got an amazing energy and buzz to what were— my peers were all really early 20s. Yeah. When I think back, the people I was looking up to, our biggest billers were probably 25 years old.

Really? Earning cash.

Back then, I thought they were absolutely minted. Really? Yeah, because they had a new Volkswagen. Or because they had a house, or, you know, yeah. And so, uh, and I learned—

this is 2004, 2004, right?

Well, 2000— sorry, it would have been 2005 to 2006. Yeah, cool.

So let— I'd be really keen just to— let's, um, thanks for that. So let's dig into sort of the majority of your career. It's McDonald's and Company, right? So, so you joined McDonald's and Company after that, obviously experience. And just to sort of lay it out then, what's, what's been your sort of career journey within that business? Because I know we Yeah, the typical route, right, is like you join as a consultant, then you become a manager at some point, director, whatever. So you're now a partnerships director. Yep. Yeah. So let's just frame up for people. So initially, yeah, just to share that.

So 2006, so I'd done my sort of 12, 18 months stint, uh, Oscar's doing, rec to rec.

Yeah.

And yeah, there's— I think what I— the good thing was I learned that I really enjoyed it. Yeah. But in, in that environment, there was bits I didn't like. For example, our terms and conditions were 40% 40. 4-0.

Oh wow.

And the game was don't mention terms and conditions so that hopefully, you know, someone wouldn't make a placement, wouldn't— yeah, you wouldn't see it, and then we just, we'd just invoice them.

Wow.

And it's— so it was— there was lots of fantastic things I learned about urgency. Yeah. Uh, there was no database. Um, there was no database. There was no database. So every, every mark— everyone's desk worked on paper CVs and job boards and Your job every morning was to call up the candidates, say, right, you're on a job board. You tell them a horror story about someone being on a job board and you had to get them off the job board within 30 minutes. Because if they stayed on after 30 minutes, they were gone. So the idea was, you know, that whole desk lasted about a week. If you hadn't placed that person you spoke to on Monday by Friday, no good. Start again.

Yeah.

So there's bits of that that I enjoyed and I took away from. There's other bits I didn't. So I made the decision, you know what? If I'm going to do this, I want to make a career out of it, I don't think I can do it here, but there must be other places I can go and learn about. So I was rec to rec, so I specced myself out.

Nice.

And I met these, alongside a few others, I met these guys called McDonnell and Company who were just a bit older than I was. They wore a smarter suit than I did, and they told a good story about sort of how people have built careers internally, what they got involved in. Um, and I just, I just, I liked it. I liked it a lot.

Yeah. So you joined them?

I joined that. So I joined them on a Thursday. Uh, I flew out to, um, uh, Marbella Thursday afternoon for their company conference for 4 days. Um, and that was my first, that was my first day. That's when I met everyone in Marbella.

Did you have one of those horror stories where Monday was like, oh my God, what did I do?

That was all right.

Yeah, you hear those though, don't you? Yeah, yeah, they're bad.

Yeah.

So, okay, cool. So I know you were saying before, so you said— so you're saying before, so 10 years you spent like solely billing, fee earner, and then you spent 2 years as a manager. But what— so just to frame it up, so though, how do they get there? Yeah, so what was the— so you've been at McDonald's company for how many years?

12 years.

12 years. So was it the first 10?

Yeah, roughly speaking. So when I joined— so I joined in 2006, as my job then was a contract recruiter in Manchester but doing a London market.

Okay.

Um, and I worked with established contract biller then, and my job was, right, so, you know, copy what he's doing but apply it to a different market. I'd never done contract before, but he was great, he was great training, loads of patience, and I learned a lot from him. And I had 2 years where I thought were exceptionally sort of successful, and I was really proud of it. And then when I didn't win big— sorry, best newcomer, I was furious. Yeah, gutted, furious, and a massive sort of chip on my shoulder saying, right, I'm going to prove them wrong. Yeah. And yeah, I think in some ways I think that's a lot of that is what I look back into, really sort of motivates me. Yeah. Okay.

So you didn't win that, but you went— so obviously, yeah, you started in contract.

I didn't get in the top 5. Yeah.

Really?

Yeah. So, you know, whatever I thought I was doing, those guys didn't agree. Yeah.

Well, So then, so the first 2 years, and then what do you do for the next?

Well, so yeah, so this before your time. So this, that was in 2008.

Yeah.

And so I didn't get it at the time, but then when you started seeing on the news about banks falling apart, people leaving with their everything, all their stuff in boxes, this sort of economic crisis, I did, I thought, well, that's all right. Lehman Brothers isn't one of my clients, so I'll be, I'll be cool.

You'll be all right.

And, and we weren't.

What market did you recruit in?

So this is, this is, um, so this is, um, real estate. I was doing contract work, and that was probably the, um, the most unpopular type of recruitment at the time because contract staff are very, very obvious. Everyone knows you're contract, everyone knows you're— they're paid a premium to be there. You're not, you're not on the same terms as permanent employees.

They can't—

they don't— yeah, exactly, they don't need to make you redundant, they just say thanks very much, don't come in on Monday. Um, And so I had, you know, been for like 3 years of a really cold, miserable winter of just hardly any activity. So my second year I'd billed 256. And then those next 3 years I was billing around about 110 to about 130. And I thought my world had caved in.

[Speaker] And that was all contract still?

[Speaker] That was all contract. In many ways contract, as much as I think it was unpopular, having something happen every month because these guys were still— some of these guys were still turning in saved me. If I was— the guys doing Perm, you know, were then blanking for 2, 3, 4 months at a time.

Wow.

It's, you know, it's really, really hard graft. I remember at one— the lowest point, I didn't book an interview. No, no one went for an interview for 16 weeks.

Whoa.

And you think, oh my God, what— how do you— you know, why? What am I doing wrong? And the market's changed a bit. You know, the styles have changed. You know, back then our biggest marketing tool was mailshots. Yeah. And I remember, I still remember, it's pinned up in our Manchester office as a reminder to me. But there's a— the biggest challenge we had then was, you know, what do you name your mailshot? And this was in sort of September. So it'd been about sort of 12 months of economic crisis. And I remember I thought, I've nailed this. Recruitment freeze begins to thaw. Because I'd had— I'd booked an interview, so I thought, yep, that's the end of that. Yeah, I was looking, and it wasn't. I had another 2 years of really, really hard graft. Really? Yeah, to come out the other end.

Right, so let's hold here for a second then. I think, again, thinking about people listening and stuff, let's start there then. Like, how—

why didn't you quit? Why didn't I quit? Still feels quite a long time ago, so I think it's—

yes, it's quite distant.

Yeah, yeah, thankfully. Maybe because it's so miserable, you've put it as deep as dark memories, but I think ultimately, you're in that moment. If someone said it's going to last 3 years, maybe I might have. But right now, you're just constantly thinking it's just around the corner. I'm one call away, I'm just one call away from getting it.

16 weeks, no interview, that requires a lot of resilience. 'Cause that's typically the barometer of no, something could drop this month, blah, blah, blah, and you're not even getting that, not even getting a sniff.

Yeah, there's nothing. You get people sort of laughing at you, people crying because they've just been made redundant. You're trying to market them. Yeah, it was really hard graft, but you haven't got that perspective of hindsight at that time. You've just got to keep doing because, you know, we were really fortunate. The business supported everyone. You know, we did make some redundancies, but a real minimum number of redundancies. No one said, right, you know, we've got some old players. The owners of our business are older than I am. They've seen previous recessions. And they were really visible in all the offices saying, you know, we've been here before, it's going to be really hard graft, but you just keep doing the basics and, and you'll get the way through. And, and we bought into that, we bought into that. Unfortunately, I just bought my first apartment and, you know, I had quite a bit of debt, so, you know, maybe some of that sort of played quite a big part as why, why I had to do it.

Yeah, so because I guess that's interesting then, and let's, let's bring that to sort of current times now. A lot of people saying obviously there's definite recession around the corner and things like that. Like, what, from your own experience there then and going through that, how do you think that then helps you prepare for what, what could be a really tough time or challenging time in your market? Do you know what I mean?

So maybe, uh, um, maybe I'm sort of— I'm generally an optimist, but, but I, but equally, uh, back of mind, I know that, you know, this, this could all end tomorrow. There's the— I try not to read too much sort of economic press, but they'll tell you, you know, in the biggest or the longest bull market we have ever had. A recession has to happen soon according to their cycles. Yeah. And so, you know, the best bit of advice I could give to anyone internally or externally is the things that keep you going are those client relationships.

Yeah, that was gonna be my thing.

Yeah. You've got to think about, right, who knows me really well? Who trusts me to do the job properly? And if you haven't got that relationship, you are extremely, extremely fragile ground.

Mm, because I think that was going to be my thing. And I had the chap on who was at the live event, actually, Tony, and he said that he went through that period as well. And that was something that he said. He was like, look, when the recession happens, there's going to be a lot less people that you can turn around to, but you need to have people that you can turn around to, clients that are willing to give you business, that are willing to help you out. And there again, it comes to relationships, doesn't it, at the end of the day? Like, what, what relationships do you have that you can actually count on them and rely on?

It's really easy to think about the relationships with clients and candidates being quite disposable. Yeah, there's lots of them, lots of work to go after. You know, if that one doesn't work out, fair enough, I don't know. But in a market where they're really rare, they're incredibly valuable.

So in hindsight then, so I know you said during that tough period you're doing the basics, focusing on that, but was you doubling down on relationships, or like, did you naturally— was you naturally doing that, or was it just trying to— yeah, one call away, trying to make stuff happen?

No, it's 2 years in and no one, no one knew where I was. Yeah. So my, my job was like sort trying to steal other people's relationships. You know, it's cool enough to say, you know, I know you've worked with the competitor for this long. Yeah, I know they might, you know, they might have been, you know, to your son's christening, but I'll try a bit harder.

Really?

Um, and yeah, sometimes that works. Wow, that works.

So first 5 years contract then, and then how long did you do contracts for?

So I was doing contracts and that definitely got me through a really dark, dark period. And, and then an opportunity came up. So I was in the Manchester office doing a London desk. Yeah. But in our London office, a member, a female member of staff was going on her first stint of maternity. And she ran the perm division equivalent to what I was doing contract.

And what was that market?

So this is in real estate, it was doing what's called technical. So it's project managers. Yeah, okay. And she was going on maternity leave. She had two young members of staff and they said, right, you've got as much experience as anyone else. Would you like to come down, move to London and then take up the management responsibility? And then when Christine comes back, we'll just, you know, we'll see where we're at. And it was, in some ways I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunity, but it was just awful timing for me. I had met my girlfriend who'd now, you know, later turned out to be my wife, I'd bought an apartment, and we were pretty settled in the North. So what I thought I was being really clever with, I said, well, you know, why don't I try and do this part-time? So I'll live in Manchester, I'll go to Manchester 3 days a week, and I'll travel down to London 2 days a week. And let's see how that goes. And I think they probably, because they maybe didn't have anyone better to do it, they said yes. Um, and that's, that's how it's worked now for 8 years.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay, 8 years. And then, so you've done perm for 8 years?

So yeah, and that's it. I never looked back then.

So yeah, so, so how was that transition initially? How was there any challenges there? So learning, so, because a lot of people, a lot of people that I've spoken to when they hear contract builders, they're like, oh, I'd love a 15, what, 15, like crazy numbers, right? Is it like, I want to get into contract, or do you know what I mean? So how did— because you've done the reverse, right? It's a contract to perm. How, how did you find that?

Uh, I think anyone listening, there is the, the rules of engagement for contract and perm are different.

Okay.

Um, uh, contract is really high urgency.

Yeah.

The reason someone's choosing to hire someone on a contract basis is because they either can't do on a permanent basis or it's not suitable. So they're in this moment And yeah, that's— you've, you've got to get yourself in, in that moment with these clients and solve it.

They need that resource as quickly as possible, really quickly.

And so in some ways they'll be flexible as to the skill about it.

Yeah.

Um, uh, permanent is quite different. Permanent people think is much, much longer term. When people, when people are choosing to hire people, they, they see these people being there 5, 10 years down the line. So their expectations are very, very different. So what I'd say is anyone sat in their desk now, whether you do contract or perm, go sit next to someone who does a different sector to you. So if you're contract, go sit next to someone who does perm. If you're perm, go sit next to someone who's contract, because there are lessons that both of you can learn from that. And I— so there was lots of lessons you learned quite early on then. So because I, I think my, my early days working without a database and that really speediness, and then doing contract, you know, I think I always had really, really urgency. If I found a client who wanted something from me, they got it that day. It didn't matter what, you know, what time of day it was, you know, I'd, I'd make sure they got, they got that from me because that was really important to me. And when I moved to a new market doing perm, that was really important that I built on that because no one knew who I was and no one had any loyalty towards me. So I had to build that up and I had to try and build that up really, really quickly. And there was two guys there who were doing it for probably about, maybe they were sort of 6 to 12 months in, so they were still pretty green. So between us, we had to work it out together how we were going to do it.

[Speaker] Really? So, so, so just— so your role then at that point, so you was managing these people straight away?

Yeah.

Really? How difficult was that?

That was really difficult.

Never managed anyone before, right?

I'd never managed anyone, hadn't done the desk, and I was only there 2 days a week. So it's probably not a surprise it didn't go very well. Um, what did you learn though?

What did you learn?

What did I learn? Well, we'll go into it later, but probably, probably not enough because I've repeated some of those mistakes later on in my life. Um, uh, but what I, what I suppose I did learn is it's, yeah, it's, it's really, really difficult. I think now, look, to build and manage—

no, manage, just manage.

Yeah, the billing— yeah, the billing thing I, I think I was, I was reasonably comfortable with. Um, but management is so much harder. And you know what, I, looking back, I bet I wasn't— I was an arse to manage. Really? No, to manage, you know, I thought I knew everything. Oh, sorry, to manage, you know, if— unless, unless I saw you as being the absolute pinnacle, I thought, what do they know? I can solve this myself. Yeah. And when people did that to me, I was furious. But I didn't know how to get them round that. And so in many ways, I said to those guys, do you know what? Do it. Let's all go learn our mistakes sort of separately. You go do what you do. Forget about the client. You take all that, and I'll go see if I can find it. And let's have a bit of internal competition. To see how that goes, because in many ways that's what I enjoyed. The competitive bit I've always enjoyed.

Really? Yeah.

I don't think they did, but I enjoyed it.

Really? So just to help me understand, and then we'll dive into a couple of things. So from that moment then, you've always worked the same niche and it's been perm?

Yeah. Since that, there's been some— as markets moved, I've had to adapt. But yeah, roughly speaking.

So then how long did you manage those people before you then ended up just going back?

Handing them back?

Yeah, handing them back.

About 9 months.

9 months, really? And then, and then the period, and then what? And then you were then what, just—

so what happened was is that sort of after, after 9 months we were still really struggling. We were struggling to find, to find our feet. The good thing was I think I'd, I'd learned a lot about that market by that, by that time, but they needed more time than I had. I was there 2 days a week while still, you know, still sort of studying myself, learning what this was. So what we did is we just, we took my team of 3 including me and we just plugged it into another team and we had a more experienced manager whereby I just became a slightly more, you know, experienced consultant under their wing.

Focused on yourself and your own performance.

And then, yeah, so, uh, I was very, very grateful to them to say, right, you know, these guys, your problem now.

Yeah, you can crack on.

Yeah. And I'm sure they were delighted by that as well.

And then how, and then how long was you then just focusing on your own billings?

And so, so then, so I had the same manager then for probably about 4 or 5 years. Yeah.

So you were just focusing on doing what you do best?

Yeah. I was, you know, that's it. Then the only challenge I had then was, you know, is where's each fee coming from? And that suited me really, really well.

I had loads of focus on—

yeah, that's all I had to focus on. You make it sound a bit easy, but no, but yeah.

So, okay, it's just for me to understand. Okay, great. So be interesting to get your thoughts on this. Obviously we were talking earlier and, um, I was saying about— so I know that you went into that role in that position where someone had already been working and they went on mat leave, you said. So like, but as you said, no one knew you, no one had any loyalty to you. So I guess What's been your journey from that period in terms of building up your desk, building up your relationships? How, how have you approached that? As I said, the business development, these types of things, is something that people always talk to me about that's difficult, they struggle with. What's been your experience and journey with building client relationships and these types of things?

So, so I could wax lyrical business development because I think this, this is the piece that I enjoy the most, really. Um, and the people, dealing with sort of internal people is my biggest challenge and probably my steepest and incomplete learning curve, whereas business development I feel most comfortable with. And I think it's— I was listening to one of your earlier podcasts and someone said something that really sort of hit home to me, and it's you've got to love what other people hate doing. Yeah, yeah. If you're going to be really successful at something, you can't just do the same as everyone else. And so for me, that's definitely that business development piece. And I think what— when I'm speaking to people internally, is that the sooner you realize that business development is at the core of everything you do, it will change the way you look at it. As soon as you stop thinking that you can— business development is a piece of what I do, and so I will put it into my weekly plan, and during these hours, and not think about it until those hours, you're always going to struggle because you're always going to find it really difficult. You're going to find it so challenging to, to turn, to change from candidate care to simply attracting new clients.

So how did you integrate it then? How did you, how, yeah, how did you integrate it to your week then for it to not feel like that?

Uh, so the way in which I, I think it becomes then a part of every action you do in recruitment. So, every time you're, you know, if you're on the phone to a candidate, you're not just qualifying that candidate for the job they might be most suitable about. You know, you're asking the questions about what else might they be, what do they know, who do they work with, who have they worked with before, what can they help you out, you know, being really frank and honest with them saying what you want to get out from it, I've always found really, really valuable. Being honest with them about saying, either this is something I don't know about, can you help me out with it? This is who I want to go work with, can you help me out with it, has been really valuable. But then also with doing not only the candidates, but even when you think you're winning at business development, you've just got a job, if your focus then suddenly turns off from, I've got a job, I'm going to fill that job, you're into this sort of stop-start cycle. So the way in which I think to look at it is by accepting that business development is something you have to do, every second of the day, you start thinking about, right, this job now, what doors does that unlock for me that might else be there? And suddenly then you get a job and then you start thinking, right, well, where else can I get that next job from? How do I, how do I make sure that the 5 candidates I put forward to that job, how do I find out that I can then put those 5 candidates to 5 jobs? Because then I've got 5 placements, not just 1, and 4, and 4.

That's really resonated with me actually, because I think if I think about when I was in recruitment You're so right. It— you, you can also— it also allows you to like build up, like build up unnecessary pressure as well when you're like— because what we did was we did our business development 10 till 12 every Tuesday and Thursday, whatever. Yeah, you're totally right. That's really resonating.

So 12, you know, 11:59, you know, you're thinking, right, I've got to get my business development suit on now, put my tin hat on, and I'm going to—

exactly, you're so right—

to someone and say, right, I'm Hishem This is what I'm doing best. You know, you've got your features and benefits written down, you're telling them all about why you're amazing, and someone shuts the door on you. And suddenly you think, well, I've failed.

Yeah.

And you know what, if— and if you do it every day, you know, every minute of the day, every action you're taking, and it's part of it, you, you will accelerate, you'll get better, you'll get better at that. But more importantly, you'll be far more successful at it.

Yeah. No, I think that it sounds really simple and basic, but that, that really is a really acute mindset change. That no, no, we don't do just business development between this period. It's like, it's, it's every single second. And it's, it's that, it's the mind having that mindset, isn't it? Because you do go into— I definitely 100% going in when you're at the candidate stuff, you— that becomes very comfortable very quickly when you're happy to have those conversations. And yeah, you're totally right. So, so how, how is that, how has that impacted your performance then? So has that enabled you then to expand accounts, make more out of just potentially that someone could have just gone, yeah, thank you for that job, 'Boom, done.' They're like, 'I can make that placement now.' Like, how, how have you found having that mindset change? Which definitely I feel like that could unlock a lot of things for people. How has that impacted?

So what— so, so I suppose the big— the biggest change is it's meant that I've been— I, I think I've been more, um, agile in the markets I've worked. So by having it as part of my— every, every part of day, I've I think I've been able to pick up on what's, what's movements or what changed in the market much, much quicker. And so what, so winding back to those days when I had to first move those desks and learn the market, the guys who I was working with, two guys, I said, well, you know, right, we've got an established client list, you guys split that 50/50, you know, because I thought, I thought maybe that'll make them like me more. If I say I'm not going to take anything off you, you have everything there that everyone's— we've, we've taken three people's client lists and just turned into two. I'll go try and find something else. And that helped me realize really quickly that actually their client list was dogshit. And actually there was an area that we didn't realize or didn't work at all. And it was there to be taken. By my— the thing I think that I still do today that is probably one of my best tactics is once I've got a job on, I don't go start looking for candidates. The first thing I do is I'll then ring 10 clients and say, I've got this job on. This is the skills, this is who it's with, and this is, then this is what it's paying. Who would you recommend for it? And in that afternoon when I call these 10 clients, by the end of it, not only will I have their recommendations for who the very best people on the market to do that, but I've also told them what I'm doing in the market I'm a specialist in. That's often, if I've picked them really well, their competitors. Um, and so these guys thinking, oh, I need that.

That's smart. Simple.

Really simple.

But no, you, again, I'm thinking, yeah, if you call 10 clients, particularly if, particularly if it's a role which, you know, businesses are always at some point looking for during their business journey or whatever, because again, if I think of my insurance days, a particular job title, if you had, you always hear that in recruitment, like, if you had 10 of that, oh, I've had 10 In my day, it was commercial account handler. If you had 10 commercial account handlers, oh.

And more often than not, 2 or 3 of those guys will say jovially, oh, if only I knew someone like that. And you're like, brilliant. Well, I know who to call, and he's my next call. Yeah, I find one person for it.

Exactly.

And that's then, that's how that sort of, that the way in which I've sort of tried to focus around sort of efficiencies is that, you know, then I've got my client who's looking for this. I work hard, I deliver, you know, I deliver those 5 candidates, but I take those 5 candidates then to the next 2, 3, Or sometimes I might send them to all 10 and just saying, oh, I have interest, you might have a quick look over these guys and see if I'm on the right track.

Hmm, simple, but I really like that.

So really quick.

And have you always sourced for your jobs then?

I think— do I do it myself?

Yeah, like, how, how's that been? Or clearly you're someone that's really comfortable with the business development, good at it. Like, have you— yeah, have you always— have you always done it yourself or have you had support? How's that been?

Well, it's probably changed over time. So, so I still probably, even now, I probably self-deliver quite a high proportion of the work I win. In many ways it's because I can do it pretty quickly just using that same process. But inevitably, the more work you win, the less time you've got to deliver it. So yeah, there's lots of great people I work with who are fantastic at helping.

[Speaker] Yeah, so what's been your experience in juggling that then? 'Cause clearly, yeah, you've got some great tactics around that, some great practical advice. And then, yeah, have you, have you then, have you always been someone that's been able to find these candidates and quite, do you know what I mean?

Um, I think the short answer is yes, but it's not, not because I've got, you know, any sort of like sort of special tricks. It's because if I've told someone I'll go and do it, I'm gonna do it. Yeah, I've got you. You know, if the, you know, if I, if I make one, you know, one bad promise I can't call them again. Yeah. So yeah, do I find it easy? No, of course not. And so, and sometimes, you know, I get myself really stuck where, you know, I've promised someone that I'm going to do it and I ring 10 people and everyone goes, they don't exist. Yeah. And then, yeah, then I'm a bit stuck.

But how— so then, so then, okay, cool. So in terms of— I really, I think that's such practical advice. I absolutely love that. I hope a lot of people can get sort of real value from that. How, how, and then how, what's in the sort of whole perm journey then? What's been the sort of performance? Because obviously what, what you shared with me, we always dive into figures and stuff. What, so how have you done billings-wise and how has that been over the last 4, 8 years?

So last year I billed £475,000 and I managed a team of 4 people.

And that's perm? That's perm. That's not a joke, that's good figures. Yeah, really good. I just feel like— I just— I don't know, there's a big part of me that I feel like big part of that is definitely really knowing that client piece and having that mindset that you're talking about. Um, so how long have you managed that team for?

So I managed— I managed that in my second incarnation of management. After the first time, I gave, you know, I gave it back for sort of 3 or 4 years, and I thought, uh, and then— and then I took it back not, not being really brutally honest, not because I wanted to manage people, but because I'd got— I'd spent sort of, what, it must have been 8 years at the same company. And I, uh, I was the— I was the top biller in the UK at that time, but I wasn't allowed in the management meetings because I wasn't a manager. And that used to really grate on me, that, that I— that there were decisions being made that, that I I couldn't get involved in it, and I really wanted to. And so when I raised it, they said, well, you're not a manager. I was like, right, how hard can it be? And I just forgot everything that I had, all the struggles I had previously, and thought, yeah, let's do it. And so I spun out of that established team, and I just took my desk and then at that time split it into 3. We recruited 2 people.

Really?

That was 2 years ago.

How, and then, so what's been your best year then? If you've been top, what's been your best year?

I've been at this so long, I almost, I almost, uh, I probably, I won't, I won't answer that because it's almost irrelevant in the sense of this. I hear loads of people who've come up with some massive numbers, but it was like in the 2000s, and your listeners probably don't care about that, do they?

No, I know. So firstly, doing that last year with a team, I think that, that is amazing.

I think again, it didn't, it didn't come without sacrifices. Course.

What in terms of?

Probably management. So, so you're better.

So yeah, so what, your bill has dropped a bit?

So I do. So in those, so the two, the two years, so the first, that first year I remember really sort of, uh, thinking that, right, well, I've gone now, I've had, I think I've internally, I've got sort of, um, I've got a certain reputation then for, for what, what I can do. And I was like, my first year in management, I, I also want to succeed at Yeah, um, because suddenly I was in this— I was— although I'd gone from being this biggest biller to being in the management team, but suddenly I was the smallest team. So I'd gone from like sort of big fish to little fish overnight by somehow asking for it. And, and I didn't— I just didn't sit very well with me. I felt I didn't like— I didn't like it. So I thought, well, right, okay, well, I'm gonna— I'm gonna show these guys how I do it. So we brought in two people And I had the strategy, I'm still only doing it part-time, I'm still in the London office 2 days a week. And so I couldn't take on 2 completely fresh grads, so we took 2 people with some life experience but a minimum amount of recruitment experience. And I thought, you know what, first time recruitment didn't go very well, so maybe because I was too competitive, maybe I asked too much of them.

Or being a manager.

Yeah, so, I'm gonna be really generous, and I'm gonna— so I just, I took my desk and I said, right, if you do one deal, I'll give you an account.

Okay.

Uh, and so, you know, roughly speaking, I think sort of, um, you operate with about 10 clients any one time.

Yeah.

And so each deal they did, then I, then I, then I gave, I gave them one. Um, and during that, that 12 months, I was just constantly conflicted I was just never happy. And the—

what was your conflict?

Well, because what happened was is that these things I'd worked really, really hard to achieve and build up these relationships. You had to let go? Yeah, well, not so much that, because I think, you know, in my mind I thought, you know, I'm going to want these guys to like me, and if I give them this, they're going to like me. But actually, because whenever, inevitably, and there's no criticism of those guys, but when you're given something, you never treat it the same way as when you've had to earn it.

I couldn't agree more.

And these guys, I'm probably asking way too much of them as well, because these are quite complex relationships and areas to manage, and they didn't do it as well as I thought I might have done. But you've got to make the mistakes, haven't you? If I kept dipping in and pointing out where I thought they were going wrong, they're gonna— we're gonna really grate on each other. But I was conflicted because there were things I wanted to go and do that I couldn't because it was at the expense of spending time with those guys. And I thought, I'm only here 2 days a week, so I can't I've got to give them those, you know, those 2 full days, otherwise it's just not fair. And so what happened in that first sort of 12 months was that I spent my time when I was FaceTime with them managing them and giving them everything I could to try and make them as good as they could be. And then the other 3 days a week when I wasn't with them, I tried to fit in a 5-day billing week. And it meant that I'd work my weekends and my evenings. And it was really hard graft. And at the end of it, what happened was that I billed £250K. And at the end of the year, we had this massive sort of party because that team then had won 5 out of the 6 awards of our internal awards. It won biggest biller, best newcomer, best deal.

And that was your team?

Yeah, that was my team. I forget what it was. And the one we came second in was sort of highest revenue per head. So we had on paper— it's great. Yeah, I had a great year. Management was, you know, they were really, you know, really supportive, but I felt really disappointed because there was things I left on the table that I really wanted to go and achieve in that year. Um, and so the next year I thought, well, okay, fine, we're gonna— we're gonna— I'm not giving up. I'm not— I'm not giving up management. I don't— I don't want people to think I've failed at this. Um, so what I maybe need to do, I maybe just need to recruit a few more people and we need to build a bit more of a steady nucleus in this— internal— this team.

Yeah.

And then they can be be sort of, um, there's ideas they can bounce off each other as well, and they can then sort of learn collectively. But actually, that didn't work very well at all. It's probably, it's probably people listening thinking, you idiot. And it meant there's just more management time. Um, uh, and so the only, the only, the only way I found to balance that was that I became a lot more selfish of my time.

When it was, as in when you was on your free day? Yeah, yeah.

So I, I couldn't, I couldn't up, I couldn't spend any more time doing my personal billing. So it meant I ate into their management time, um, and I did more of what I did. And, and so that's— and so the good thing from was that returned me back then to my billing habits and what I, what I enjoyed. But it was at the expense then of, of how that team developed, no doubt.

Really?

Yeah.

So would you go— if you were to start that process again, and how would you do it differently if you were to start that first year again? You wanted to get into those management meetings, how would you approach it differently? I probably— maybe clearly still working out.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, I think isn't everyone? Yeah. Um, I probably would have been a bit, a bit more forceful with the leadership, saying that just don't call it a management team then.

Yeah.

Now, if—

what, in terms of like getting involved?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I think I've got something to add, but I'm not— I'm— but, uh, because I'm, I'm a, a sort of, uh, a successful biller don't, don't block that door because I haven't got a management badge.

Yeah.

Um, so I met— maybe, you know, it's not something I've thought about, um, too much.

That's interesting though.

But that's, that's probably what I—

because there will definitely be a lot of people that may feel like that.

Yeah. So what— you know, the long story short is it's at the end of that 2 years— this is going back, um, going back— then what happened was I recruited 2 people, um, so 2 great managers, previous management experience. One person run a business, the other person had run some really big teams. and I gave them the team, and they— those guys now run it as co-heads.

Interesting. Management's hard, isn't it?

It's so much harder than I ever thought. And, and if, if people are listening to this and they've continued to listen, the one thing I would, I would really recommend is that just— management is so difficult, and if you haven't done it before, you maybe just don't appreciate how, how hard these people work. Uh, so just, you know, I mean, just find something they're really good at and just tell them and just give them a bit of praise and say thank you. That they'll— they will really, really appreciate that because it's dark and it's lonely and it's miserable.

So look, how— how— so what I'd really like to sort of dive into— I know you shared some of these things, but I think honestly, I think if I think of the conversations I have on a daily, weekly basis with people around performance and things like that. I don't want to be really hung up on the billings, but I think it's just part of it is a good indicator. But I have weekly conversations with people, Hishem Azzouz, I'm really struggling to break the 200K mark, like, and progressing. Do you know what I mean? Some people can really plateau. So like, how have you always pushed forward? Clearly you're someone that's super competitive, willing to put in the work.

Clearly.

But like, what do you think are some of the things that really contributed? Because that, that honestly, again, I think that, that, that's like really impressive. Like, if there may be a lot of people thinking that, how, how, how can you do those sort of numbers in today's market? I think back to sort of when I shared what, what, what are, what make, what are the sort of typical good billings in today's market, people had different opinions. But if, so if you're someone that's billing $200K plus, like seen as a really good biller.

Yeah, so that's for people to listen. 250, definitely.

That's what I mean, for people to listen and for you to go, yeah, I did 400-something last month. That in perm, that is— do you know what I mean? So I guess I'd love to just sort of— if there's anything else in there, like what you think can really enable you to do that and achieve that, because there'll be a lot of people thinking that it's just so out of— out of their planet, do you know what I mean? And if I was listening, I'd be like, how? How has he done that?

So I think the thing to remember is when we might have a conversation with someone about sort of, you know, right, I've hit my pinnacle. And if it's not as high as maybe where ours is billing, as soon as we start having a chat, most people sort of forget about the basics and just cover it in covering their bases because you get a bit comfortable or you get a routine and maybe over time you've adapted it to suit who you are. but actually revisiting some of the basics about sort of how you might sort of manage your candidates, how you might manage those clients, how you sort of perfect the processes that go through, and crucially, that you never forget that business development is a part of every part of the job you do. You'll start then to see there are gaps that you can really tweak. And that's all we're talking about. It's minor tweaks that will make—

can have a big—

yeah, they can have a big impact. But the other thing is, I'm the self, I'm sorry, I'm the same. I'd hit sort of barriers of say 250 or 300 or sort of 350, and more often than not what was happening was that I was approaching closer and closer to sort of the pinnacles of the people who I saw were my peers, and I thought, well, if they're doing 275, if I'm doing 250, I'm doing all right, 'cause 275's the ceiling. And then someone would come along and do 300, and I'm like, yeah, oh, so if they do that, yeah, suddenly your whole, your whole perspective changes about what, you know, what you can do. And that's— so if you're, if you're an organization, has that had a big impact? It has massive impact, even. And to this day now, so, so I've— so at my peak, I, I spent, uh, 3 years as UK top biller and 2 years as global top biller. But now I wouldn't make it. We've got million-pound billers now, and I think, how'd you do that? Yeah. And so learning, sort of constantly thinking that actually what I'm doing, there is people find more time in the day to do more. I think that is, so if you're in an organization now, if you have sort of, you've reached this sort of plateau, and you think you're maxed out, and if you are the biggest billionaire at 200 or 225, you know, you're doing a really good job. But there is definitely things you can do to increase it. So if there's not someone in your business who you can chase after, go and find it. Yeah, speak to you. Yeah, go to some of these, you know, recruitment network style events, find someone who's, who's doing it.

It's amazing how much of an impact that has, like, because all of a sudden it's like, Nick, this is really low, there's more, you can do more, you know.

And it's, uh, and I, I think the, uh, there's a bit more to that. I think it's a lot more enjoyable the years where I was chasing other people were much more enjoyable than when I was in that top seat. 'Cause I've used analogy loads and I should say, I'm not a cyclist, I'm not entirely sure if this is true, but you know, like in the, they call a group of cyclists a peloton, don't they? There's always someone at the fr, the first space and everyone else is drafting behind them. So they're sort of there in this pack just behind them. Being in that pack, constantly having someone to focus on and chase after is so much easier than when you're out at the front. 'Cause when I was out at the front, it's really lonely, and mentally, it's incredibly draining having this massive fear, what if I drop? What if I—

[Speaker] You have that massive expectation on yourself.

[Speaker] I don't know if I'm unique or not, but yeah, expectation. When I was number 1, I put so much value on that, that was my reputation, that's what I thought people thought about me, that I thought, 'What if I'm not? What am I?' Suddenly, you know what? And so, and so, yeah, I, I felt, I felt a tremendous amount of pressure and, and a tremendous amount of sort of, uh, of sort of, uh, how lonely and how, in some ways, how miserable sometimes the, the job got. Because I just, I just had to do more every month. I had to do more, otherwise someone's going to catch me.

Mm. Hard at the top, isn't it?

Uh, I'm sure no one's getting violins out, are they?

But no, but I think, look, I think it's a great way to talk about it because I had to go find help, definitely. What do you mean?

Because I didn't think it was sustainable. I didn't think it was very healthy, really.

Um, so what was, what was being impacted then? Were your personal relationships being—

Yeah, everything. Yeah, yeah, I'd be, I'd be grumpy. I'd be—

So what'd you get help with?

All this, yeah, it's, it's all the stuff that I never had before about this fear of what was someone else going to do if I, if I did 30K in the month. What if someone did 31? You even when I was having my— even when I was— I never ever said— so when I was at that top, I stopped celebrating all the wins because I, I was worried there weren't going to be enough.

Wow. How did you start getting over that then? Is it mental? Yeah.

So, um, um, so I went, I went to work and I said, right, you know, this is, this is the problem, the problem I've got. You know, I, I, I, I need someone who I can go either go and chase or find, find something to, you know, to get me out of this. And they were great. At the drop of a hat, they said, well, let's go find you a coach. And so we went externally and we found someone who I then sort of spent some time talking it all through.

And how did that help?

Do you mind? In some ways, just having a chat to someone who I didn't feel vulnerable with.

Yeah, they were like completely neutral.

Yeah, I put a huge amount of responsibility on myself because of where I wanted people to think who I was. So I didn't dare admit that I wasn't that, or I wasn't invincible. So having someone who I could chat that through, and being frank, the guy was fantastic, but he didn't have any magic dust to pour over this stuff. But he was someone who listened to what I've got and just gave me a bit of pretty simple advice, and you go away and you implement it, and off it goes again.

So someone sort of—

And I got the love back, I think.

Really? If someone's sort of filling those things and experiencing some of those things that maybe you experience, then what are some of the things that you'd sort of tell them to start thinking about?

So I, I think it's, it's, um, you've got to get back, back in that mindset whereby you're chasing something.

Yeah.

Because I think if you're trying to do things— yeah, having— and that's the most important word, is that I think targets work for businesses but goals work for people.

And not just— yeah, not just your revenue goal, like your own personal goal.

Definitely. So Every year now, and I say now, I've done this ever since I've started, is I'll write a wishlist. And it's material stuff. It's something I wanna buy or something I wanna go and learn and do at the start of each year, and I just put a little target next to it. And it's often, it's a financial target or it's a bit, you know, beat this record or something like that. And then every time I do it, I'll go treat myself with that. And so that at the end of the year, if I don't hit it's this sort of notional target that someone else might have dreamed up for me or maybe I've dreamed up for me, I still know I've had a good year because I've ticked off 8 of those things at the start of the year which I thought were aspirational.

[Speaker] So then was part of that process actually making the time to give yourself a pat on the back and celebrate some of the things you've worked hard for and get better at that?

[Speaker] Yeah, definitely, 'cause I think even the small stuff, if you don't celebrate it, then you overlook it really quickly and our mind's a wonderful thing You know, you, you forget about all those, all those small wins if you think your whole year rests on hitting, on hitting one target.

It's really interesting.

It's taken me a while. It took me quite a long time to—

and that's really helped you again. It's really interesting, isn't it? I think that's such a great story. So I think thank you for being so open and honest because I think like so many, so many people, a lot of people were listening, and in recruitment we want to get to that top spot, but But how many people then at the top talk about how actually they may not like— like you're saying, like, why would you then share with people like, oh, I'm actually finding it really hard at the top because all the things that you're sharing, you know what I mean? How many people then actually talk about when they get to the top that, yeah, this is actually really hard, I'm putting a lot of pressure on myself, all these things. So I think that's really interesting. Um, out of interest then, what are some of the things now, again, you, you're sort of having this exposure to people that you're chasing and inspire you? Like, what are some of the things you're seeing in these people that leave you sort of— so the people that are performing even better in these types of things, like, what are some of the things that you're picking up from these people that maybe you've implemented or seen or found interesting? Anything there?

Yeah, so sort of like what lessons do you think?

Yeah, yeah, well, just because again, now as you said, you're, you're not in this top spot now, and there's people— and you quite like that because now you can look at people, wow, they're 'cause they're achieving this, blah, blah, blah, but I don't know, is there anything that you've picked up on, could be anyone, it doesn't always have to be because they make billing more than you, but is there anything that you've always, that you've picked up on over the last couple of years that have left you sort of inspired and you've then utilized yourself or?

[Speaker] Yeah, do you know what, this might come as really disappointing news, there isn't something that these guys are doing that is revolutionary different to what anyone does.

[Speaker] I think that's great to hear though.

[Speaker] Well, hopefully, I mean, I find it inspiring to think that it's, it's not because someone's landed a great big account or they've been given something or they do something that I haven't got. It's down to relationships and it's down to subtle sort of changes in how you think about something. So coming back to, you know, my big point about business development is part of everything we do, is that so often people will think that a client is a sort of— winning work is about getting a job on.

Yeah.

And they keep going back to that same person in that organization, back and forth, and thinking that, right, well, they— because they give me regular jobs, I've nailed that client.

Yeah.

And actually, what you don't realize is, you know, that organization is made up of tens, hundreds, thousands of people doing exactly the same with lots of other recruiters. And if, and if you can find a way then to, to, you know, to take that success story in one fraction of that business and start to multiply it that's what I think where it gets really successful because suddenly you're not having to start from scratch every time. You've got someone internally who's willing to say, "This guy is great." And actually, we all love doing that. If we've had great service, we love telling our friends about it because they'll thank us for it. It's actually quite natural to want to be able to help our colleagues out. But you've, as a recruiter, you've, you've got to channel that and you've got to make that work.

Yeah, no, I think that's such a great point. I think, um, so, uh, the episode with James, he spoke a lot about this, how for him once he's made the first placement, that's when the fun starts for him. That isn't where, where it ends. So I think that's great that you're sort of sharing it from your own perspective and, and sort of what you've picked up on, I guess. What, what is a typical day like? Day look like for you? I feel like it would be regimented. What, what, what do you make sure— what are non-negotiables in your day? And I'm sure people would love to know what that looks like. What's it— what does a typical day look like for you on your billing days?

Yeah, so I'm, uh, so my billing— my officially, my, my, my last billing day was the 31st of March last year.

Okay.

Um, but then and, and now, I'm not a big planner.

Really? I feel like you would have been.

Yeah, I'm, I'm not great at planning. Really? Because what I do know is that if I think about something, if I wanna go do it, I've gotta do it straight away. Because I'll either forget about it or inevitably you'll think, oh, I need to call that client. And if I forget about it, guarantee I'll call them the next day and they'll be like, ah, you forgot to call me yesterday, Nick. Something happened. So yeah, so what I tend to do is I think I try with a high degree of urgency, I just get as much done in the day as I can. But what I do have is I have a golden rule whereby there's always one thing I have to do that day, and I'll do that first. Yeah, get it out of the way, because sometimes this is like the hardest—

not sometimes perceived hardest.

Yeah, sometimes it's the stuff, you know, you really not— you're like, yeah, yeah, get it out of the way, and then everything and the rest of the day is downhill then.

Yeah, yeah. So recruitment must have changed a lot since you've been in the game. What do you think has been the biggest changes?

So I've worked in really small setups and now quite a big company.

Yeah.

Um, I— there's probably— there's aspects of recruitment that haven't changed at all. Yeah. And things like tech, uh, LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, you know, sort of started, you know, after I started in recruitment. So, yeah, that LinkedIn's definitely had a, had a major impact, and it's probably hurt big businesses and helped very small businesses, because suddenly then it's a real leveling factor. Everyone's got the same database.

Yeah, that's fair.

Um, and increasing— increasingly so, I think, you know, I'm now learning about content and ways in which to sort of to reach your marketplace. So I think probably the recruiter now has to be a lot more agile and has to be far more open to different ways of working. I think I'm a process recruiter. I think I've got, you know, I've got these set rules and ways in which I work, you know, for each, whether it's whether I'm working with a candidate or a client. Yeah, that's, I, I'll go, I'll follow that process and I'll make, I'll make sure I nail that. But I'm trying, I'm trying to improve my understanding on, on some of the softer stuff.

Yeah. And how easy are you finding that? Because I think again, typically someone in your shoes who've been in recruitment for a while, you've got those tools. Why would, like, no, no, I know how it works. Like, I'm going to carry on doing what I do. No works. Do you know what I mean? Why? Where's the motivation behind that, out of interest? Because I think, again, that's great to have that mindset, but there may be a lot of people listening who— what? No, why, why would I know what I need to do?

Uh, I think it's—

and how have you found it? Have you found going through that journey?

Uh, but I think that's what I enjoy. Yeah, you and I had a quick chat, didn't we, about before, and you asked me what, what I, what I don't like. Uh, and I— if I hear you or someone on your, your podcast and they say you know, uh, when they're trying to make out like, you know, recruitment's easy or the process is easy.

Not rocket science.

Yeah, and I hate that.

Yeah, because why do you hate that?

Well, because I don't, I don't want someone to sort of belittle my, my chosen career. I don't want someone to tell me my job's easy because I find it really hard.

Yeah, I'll go with me. And there's, there's, I think it's, it's the, it's, it's the how that the actual process of— do you know what I mean? That's what people say though when they say that.

But you, how much do you bill in your first year?

24K, mate.

So how easy is recruitment? How easy is the process?

I get what you mean. I totally get what you mean. I think— but that's why people say that though, do you know what I mean? That's why people say it's like, well, look, the process doesn't change, but it does. Yeah, I know. I know.

So what I'm— I suppose when you asked me sort of how am I finding it, and I think that's, uh, what I'm finding is that's, that's what gives me the enjoyment. You know, I, I don't believe— although I've been, you know, I've had this, you know, I've, I've been a recruitment consultant for 13 years I don't believe for a second that I've been doing the same job. I think every year it changes and every year I've got to learn something different. So whether it's about sort of the psychology of an interview or whether it's digital marketing or whether it's something within my market. If I don't keep on top of that, yeah, I'll become a dinosaur. I'll die out.

So how do you see the next 5, 10 years panning out? What are you— yeah, how are you thinking about that? In terms of recruitment-wise?

I do. I'm pretty comfortable about that. Yeah, I am. I really am. Because the tech, I think, is an enabler.

For sure.

I don't believe for a second it could replace, you know, what I think really good recruiters are best known for. And so I think, you know, how much will it change in the next sort of 5, 10 years? I'm not so sure. I think people who either have really low sort of engagement with their clients who are these sort of CV farms, they probably need to be pretty worried. Yeah. But the people who are spending the time to get to know those clients, build up really, really strong relationships, will find that, you know, tech enables them to handle the really low-value work and give them more time to do what they're really good at.

Yeah.

So I think it can only get better.

Do you think— do you— have you always viewed recruitment as your career?

Uh, I, I love recruitment. Yeah. And it's probably— it's probably— it's probably taken me quite a long time to admit that.

Really?

Yeah.

So because of what comes with calling yourself a recruiter?

Yeah. So I call myself a recruitment consultant.

Yeah.

And I didn't do that for quite a few years. I'd call myself a headhunter or a— yeah, a talent manager. Because of the perception? Because what I thought was the perception room.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, uh, because I didn't think it was cool, or I didn't— yeah, I didn't think it was well respected. Well, maybe— yeah, maybe I didn't think— maybe it didn't get respected, or maybe I didn't think it was a career.

Um, I think that's changing.

Uh, there's only one way it's going to change is if recruitment consultants change it. We can't— we can't expect other people to award us, you know, a professional badge or accreditation if we if we're embarrassed about saying what we do.

Yeah, you're so right.

So I think that, yeah, this is, this is why I said this to start. I think you are doing an amazing job being this, this, this champion for so many people and bringing out these stories about people who are really successful at what they do. Yeah, because we should be really proud of it. And, and now looking, looking back, I can't— I mean, I've obviously— it wasn't, it wasn't a strategy or a plan to get into recruitment, but I I'm incredibly grateful for it. It's given me so much, and it's— and the great thing is it still does. I've got so much to learn and so much I'm really excited about, about developing.

Yeah.

Um, that I don't know any other job that could do that.

So, um, 2020. Yeah, what's that look like for you, mate?

So I've got this new job, haven't I? So since 1st of April, my title changed from director to partnership director.

What does that mean?

So there's, there was something that over the past sort of 2, 3 years I've been sort of perfecting, and it's about sort of taking the traditional contingency model and then having a quick look in terms of how we apply that. And the— we've batched it up internally as partnership.

Okay.

And what we do is we go to a client and say, right, we're doing— look at our numbers in this department. Listen to that line manager. Why can't we apply this to every department you've got? Okay, and we build up a partnership.

Yeah.

And you know, with that, without, without boring you too much, this essentially the way it works is we're still charging on a, on a fee-per-hire basis. But what we will do is if you instruct us, you're asking us to spend X amount of hours on it, so there'll be a bill. It doesn't matter if you hire your next-door neighbor or the guy sat in the seat to the left of it already, but if you're asking us to provide our services, then there's a, there's a fee to be paid. Mm-hmm.

How's that been going down?

Like, like anything, there's lots of people who are used to recruitment in its own ways.

Yeah.

So there's lots of, there's lots of interacting and having a certain exchange. And there's lots, there's lots of people who are very comfortable burning through recruiters' time for free.

Yeah.

So to those guys, no, it wouldn't, it doesn't go down very well because suddenly to them they think it's going to be really expensive because they put, they manage recruiters' time really badly. But there's lots and lots of clients who've seen the benefit to it. And it— the great thing for me is it gives us— having that sort of certainty of billable hours means we can do so much more for them. And I think, and I think, you know, we've now got a really solid core of clients.

You do it. Yeah. Do you then obviously showcase on a monthly basis like what you've done?

It means we do wonderful things through statistics about sort of their process from how many CVs did we provide, how many people they showed. We can then show them the feedback in these beautiful sort of tables. And this is what, you know, this is what the market thinks of you when we've gone out to them originally. So this is where, you know, this is what they think about you when they've been inside. You know, this is the time that you've spent to make decisions. We can make, we probably need to make some tweaks here as well. And through to once our closest relationships, so we still, I'll see them once a month. And for some of them, I'm sat on the board. As a nominal position and giving them updates on recruitment and HR. And those, those are our most successful relationships.

Yeah, because seen as a partner.

Yeah. And that's, it's a genuine way, isn't it?

Yeah, that's awesome. And that's been a process and journey since April?

No, so that's been about 3 years in the making. That's been my, the thing that I've been sort of most passionate about. But then having, you know, then admitted something, the, the things that I wasn't enjoying about management, and then finding these 2 guys who can then co-head the team set up has then meant I've got a lot more time to do it. And the other good thing is there was this big career milestone for me that I wanted to go from. I'd been this consultant, I'd got that management in that management team, um, but there was this— there was, um, I was never on the board. And, and so the first of April, then I got my, my board seat.

How'd that feel?

That was phenomenal. That's because it— and it's, uh, It was just something I want. I really, really want it. And there's something about you. I think you asked me about sort of how do people sort of get on and how do they develop? And I think you've got to be really proactive. You've got to ask for it. I asked for that 2 years ago to the chief exec. And I don't know whether he was being polite or not, but he said, let's have a chat about it. And there's no doubt I was not ready for that in the slightest. But because I put my sort of my hat in the ring, I'd sort of marked out my seat there for the future. And, you know, we agreed on what I needed to go do and learn about before I was eligible to join it. And, you know, after that period of time, then we got— and the great thing personally is that I'm now sat, you know, in an organization that I feel really passionate about alongside people who used to be my managers, who used to be the people who I looked up up to when I first sort of started. But now, you know, we're now sat at the same, the same table, you know, making some really bold decisions, and it's exciting.

Yeah, I think that's such great advice. I think because a lot of people can really fall into the trap of like, um, nah, they're just— it's just like point the finger basically and be like, yeah, then they're not giving me any opportunity, like, no, I don't like them, it's not fair, blah blah blah. But as you quite already said, I think in my experience, when I've worked for businesses and stuff, it's like, yeah, ask, put your hat in the ring, and then if you do get pushback, it's like, right, okay, what have I got to do to get to a point where I can get to where I want to? Yeah, so I think that's such great advice for those that are wanting to push on and have more of an impact in the business that they've given a lot of time to. It's like, let them know what— that's what you want, instead of sitting there and moaning when you get home, ah, they're not giving me that opportunity, blah blah blah, right?

Cool.

So last question. It's gone quick enough.

Yeah.

So, um, normally I ask what you're excited about and stuff, but I think you sort of give a great, um, just shared with us sort of what's exciting, I think, there. So look, what the, the last question I always ask is, is simple, and that's if you, if you could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen to your advice they'd take it on, they'd implement it tomorrow. Could be a phrase, a sentence. What comes to mind? What do you want to tell the people?

Uh, okay, so it probably comes back to sort of business development, and, uh, they— that one word is proximity. Okay, so no matter what type of recruiter you think you are, you know, whether you're— whether you're like me being process, or whether you're, you know, you're more Hishem about, about sort of social content and things, what you have to think about is your— even your best and closest client relationships, they will still succumb to competition if you're not close enough to them. So the idea here is that, you know, you have to make sure you are in closest proximity to your clients at any one time. And the challenge is how you do that. This sort of Route 1 is a CV, isn't it? Yeah, just reminding your clients, this is what I do, this is what I've got to offer. 'But that gets old really, really quickly.' And then you've got my trick about ringing them for advice about jobs. But then you've got things like industry events, you know, not only sort of turning up, but maybe you float them the cost of a ticket, you know, because you really want them to be involved. I'm in real estate, so every month we go out to go see a client's new building, and we ask them to volunteer their time for an hour, and we'll take 10 or 12 people with us. To go learn about what they do, and we don't mention recruitment.

Mm-hmm.

We're interested in what they're doing and how it works, but that's, that's 12 one-hour slots every year that we get to spend with these guys one-on-one learning about it. And then, and then you— there's lots of other sort of ways, you know, ways we can be really clever about, about getting in time with that client. But that's, that's the key, is about, you know, if you're thinking about building your desk or, or improving or kicking on then I think you've got to find really clever ways to be as close to your market, as close to your clients as possible. And if you're not, you're leaving the door wide open for someone who's more eager, who's willing to put in a bit harder graft than you are.

Hmm. Nick, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, mate.

I enjoyed that more than I thought.