Nick Guy - Building teams in Manchester, London, San Francisco and soon New York!

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz and we're in Brighton early again. I'm joined by Nick Guy, who works for Finney James and is currently— you currently head up the American side of Finney James. Yep. So Nick has actually traveled all the way from San Francisco to do this podcast, especially to do this. I came all the way. But look, Nick, as I was just saying, where I always, always like to start How the hell did you get into recruitment, mate? How did that happen?

Probably the same story as everyone else. Never heard of it, and then the next minute you're in it. Yeah, kind of out of university, needed a job, knew someone who'd done recruitment and a lot of money, and then, you know, before I knew it, I couldn't live off my dad anymore.

What's what some of your mates do it then?

Not a mate, so one of my kind of parents' friends, like next-door neighbor actually, when I grew up, he's about 4 or 5 years older than me. He's kind of gone into recruitment.

That's what happens in Manchester, you actually speak to your neighbors, don't you? You do, yeah, in the north you speak to your neighbors.

Yeah, he'd gone into it and I didn't really know anything about it still, but I'd heard he was successful.

What did you see, like the car he was driving and all that, or—

He was living in London, so he didn't drive, but he was— he'd gone down from—

Yeah, they were speaking highly of him.

Exactly.

Okay, what did you do before then? Because I think I saw on your LinkedIn you worked at Manchester for a bit.

Yeah, I worked at Man United. That was in like hospitality.

Oh really?

Whilst I was at uni.

Oh really, whilst she was at uni?

So yeah, I came straight out of university, Finlay James.

Really? Okay, that's, that's interesting. And, um, so look, I think what I really want to dive into with you is that obviously— so you're sort of— just to set the scene, that you've obviously— how long you work for Finney James now? Like 5?

Just coming up to 6 years.

So I mean, it's been your only recruitment job, right?

It's been my only real job.

Only real job. Yeah. So that's obviously really interesting in itself, right, that you've, uh, been in that company for that long. But obviously, so you started Manchester and then you went down to London, right?

Yep.

And set up the London team. And then you went from London to where you are now, right?

San Francisco.

San Francisco. And then what you intend on doing is that, I don't know, later this year that you're going to go over to New York?

To New York, yeah, probably in October. So it kind of ties in with our financial.

Okay, cool. So I'm sure you've learned a fuckload along the way, but I guess let's just— what I always like to start with initially is like, so never knew about recruitment, obviously fell into it, but How were your sort of first 12 months? Because it seems like you've pretty much hit the ground running, or you've done pretty well quite early on. So what— talk to me about your first 12 months a bit.

So, um, I kind of joined just at the start, roughly at the start of our financial year, and then went straight into a pure BD role. So 180, pure BD, kind of hitting the phones, 80 to 100 calls a day.

You know, that's what you're signing up for. Yeah, pure BD, right?

I didn't really know that there was another option, to be honest. Really? Yeah, I was kind of, um, I hadn't really researched it that well. I just needed a job.

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

And I was kind of interviewing with the likes of S3. I actually wanted a big recruitment job, like a big company, you know how they sell it to you, like the whole company come down to London.

Yeah.

And the top biller gets a car.

Yeah.

And I was like, that sounds, that sounds good. But then I really liked Finley James, and they talked a lot about training throughout the process and the onboarding, the support.

And so I think as well, it's the people that you connect with as well, isn't it? Yeah. It's so key, isn't it, at that stage? Did you interview for quite a few places then when you— like maybe 4 or 5 recruitment agencies, 4 or 5 offers.

No, I didn't actually. Finney James was my first offer. Oh yeah, I remember I phoned up my dad and he was obviously paying for me at that point because I didn't have any money. I've just come back from traveling.

Yeah.

And I phoned him up, I was like, I've got an offer but I've got 2 final interviews, should I do that? He said, no, not a fucking chance, get yourself in that job.

Really?

Yeah. So he said, you take it. And then, and, uh, I took it and I'm obviously having a look back.

Yeah. So So in a pure BD role, like, so for me, I've spoken about it quite a lot, I started on the pure candidate piece. Did some client work initially, but that's how they, that's how my director embedded me into recruitment. And then when it did, but then by that point I'd seen my colleagues do BD and all that. And when it gets to, right, okay, right, Hishem, now I want you to start building your own client bank and all this. I've shit my pants by that point, right? But obviously you were naive to the fact that you didn't know there was an option and okay, well this is recruitment, I'm doing it, right?

Yeah, you just did it. I, I'm glad I did it the way I did.

That's what I mean. Yeah.

Um, although I probably have less empathy than I should do. Really?

On the candidate side? Yeah, yeah. That's interesting.

I didn't, I didn't start doing candidates till about maybe 2 or 3 years ago. So really, maybe 2 years in.

So what was your— talk to me about that then, because maybe quite a few people— obviously I think it's become more and more popular now in the UK to have that type of structure. Yeah, the 180. Yeah, I think There's a lot of conversations I've had that their businesses are looking to change that way, but also there's a lot of people still doing the 360 role, right? So yeah, it was your job to do what? Sign clients and get jobs on and get them to sign terms, and that was your job.

Sign clients, and I still managed the account.

Yeah.

So I would still kind of—

so you build the relationships, turn them into paying customers, but then you'd also, um, obviously work with that relationship as well to maximize it.

Yeah. So you maximize it, you grow it, you land and expand the account, you still manage the day-to-day. So the way we do it is I would still do the admin, like, you know, sending over the CVs of other candidates and that account.

And would you have any say on if that candidate was right? Yeah, so I decide whether that—

oh, really? You decide in the first place? Yeah, yeah, it goes out in my— that can— that client is in my name, essentially. So yeah, I want to make sure that it's—

yeah, yeah, because it's your reputation, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

So I guess— so that's all you did in the first— well, all you did until 2, 3 years, right?

Yeah, for the first 2, probably 2 years, until I moved to London. Actually, it was when I moved to London in 2016.

You started sourcing and picking up and stuff. Okay, let's just talk a bit about that, that first 2-year period, mate, because as I was telling you, a lot of people reach out and talk about— want me to talk about business development and these things. So, um, firstly, like, how the hell did you even approach that? So did you have data to attack? Did you have to map out the market yourself? Or like, because obviously by this point, I guess if you're going straight into it, what did you know about tech sales at this point? I'm sure you didn't. Yeah, that's what I mean. So how do you know— I mean, because that can be quite, um, a lot of people could have a bit of fear around that as to thinking they're going to come across stupid or they're unknowledgeable and those things. So how, how did you approach those first 2 years?

Just got on the phones, you know.

Really?

It's simple. Like, yeah, we had really good training in that they gave you the questions to ask, and it's never— okay, you don't need to know about the tech, and you don't need to know because we're experts of where the people move within tech. We're not experts in tech. Yeah, if I was an expert in tech, I'd be a developer, or I'd be selling software.

So that's the best way to look at yourself.

Yeah. And so it's, it's like, if I knew all the answers to those questions, they probably don't need my help. Like, right now I need to, I need to ask them questions to understand what their business challenges and their problems are.

Yeah.

Before you can just go in and fix it. Yeah. So it was Finley James, and James May was my manager. He sort of hired me, brought me on, trained me up, and it was kind of trained. I was trained to ask questions rather than make assumptions. Yeah, and you just spent time, as much time as you could, meeting or on the phone.

Really?

I'm a classic, uh, salesperson who hates admin, so I really— I would spend all my time on the phone rather than sending emails, sending— I just didn't like sending emails.

You just liked obviously having the conversations. Okay, so let's break that down a bit then, because I know— okay, so did you sort of detach the outcome of the calls, do you know what I mean? Because it's great having— so what I mean by that is it's— I like the intention of all I'm doing is asking questions, right? And what it seems like you've done is you're not thinking about the end result that you need. Like, a successful call is going to be them signing terms or whatever, where you can obviously put a bit of pressure on yourself or you don't think it's gone successful. So what were some of those questions? What are the key things that you tell your guys now that you train up that you need to try and find out on this phone call to make that a successful business development cool if you have them for however long on the phone?

Yeah, well, you just— you've got to help them with their challenges, right? So you've got to find out what it is they're looking for, why they're hiring.

Okay.

If you don't understand— and Simon Sinek talks a lot about, yeah, you can start with the why. If they don't know why, then you're kind of in a challenging spot because they don't know why they're hiring, or so therefore they probably don't know what they need.

Yeah. So for you, it's very much, okay, yeah, you are hiring, but why? That's what you really need to tap into.

Exactly, exactly that. And we want to understand the brief fully, you know. If you just get sent a job spec, which a lot of agencies do, and it's an HR job spec, then you've not got enough to really—

because that was gonna be my next thing, is like, also, I'm, I'm sure you learned this, you've got to work the right jobs, haven't you? You've got to get the right jobs in. And yeah, that's a big part of that, isn't it?

Exactly. And we have to qualify the client, you know. Sometimes we do turn people away, and not every client is right for us, and yeah, vice versa.

Okay, cool. And how— what did it like in terms of— so did you just have a bank of data that you could call them, like, or did you map things out and then just kind of have a bit of So when you first started, it was kind of like, you don't—

while you're going through your training, here's a list of numbers.

Oh, fuck. Really?

And it was just like, you know, here's— make 80 calls. And I would try and connect with them. I'd have a script that I'd go through, and I would try and pass it to someone who was more senior at the time.

Really?

Yeah.

That sounds intense, mate.

It was quite intense.

Yeah, yeah.

I wouldn't change it though.

Really? Let's talk about— let's talk a bit about— obviously I'm sure it wasn't all, um, roses through that period, you know what I mean? I'm sure it wasn't all positive. So, oh, like, for me, I, I would definitely find that really difficult. And I know there would be points where I've been like, fucking hell, like, this is horrible. Like, I don't know if I can crack on doing this. So, like, talk to me about some of your low times, mate, during that period, because surely you must have got a lot of knockbacks and a lot of rejection because I didn't know any different.

Like, you know, my job was to come on and straight away I was told that if I made 80 calls, ideally I wanted to speak to 16 people, and only one of them really would turn in.

They were the expectation.

That was very clearly set with me. So I only expected to have one success, real successful call, that would become a client in a day. So yeah, you get knocked back all the time, but I was kind of expecting it, really.

Yeah, that's fair enough. No, I get that. And that's, I guess, yes, the expectations of that you're like, well, okay, look, this is just part of the process. I know I'm going to get some nos. Yeah, but I'm hunting for that, that one, that one yes, right?

That one yes. And so you did it. Whether that's the right way to do it now, no, no, it's interesting.

No, I like, I like that because it's like, I think, look, you, you know how it is, you've hired people, right? Like, it's that if you then, if you said to your new hire to do it that way, a lot of people probably weren't— sorry, is there air freshener above you?

No, it's all right.

Um, But like a lot of people would probably tap out, right? I think quite a lot of people did. That's what I mean, that's what I mean. So I think that's why I was curious as to what kept you going.

But I think it's very simply that I did have a lot of success early on. And oh really, in the sense that, um, people were placing my jobs. So really, either it was because sometimes I had the good consultants working it and I'd built up relationships internally. There's a lot of— when you work the 180 model, you have to have the relationships internally.

Really?

Because if you don't have that relationship with the person who's going to place your role and you don't have the commitment on your client, then they're not going to—

yeah, you're not going to— so yeah, I guess there's a bit of selling internally as well.

There is, yeah, massively, massively.

That's interesting.

And so that, that can— I guess from a 180 point of view, you're not necessarily in control of your own destiny a little bit, but yeah, yeah, um, but you do get to hone in on that one skill.

Yeah, exactly.

So you can really become an expert of that, the PD piece, which actually helps from the BD piece, when you move to the candidate side anyway, from a headhunt perspective, you're really like, yeah, nail it, because you just, you just want to be on the phone anyway.

Yeah, okay, that's true. Um, okay, so some good advice for people that set up that way is make sure that you really, um, cultivate the relationships internally with the people that are going to be placing your jobs. Okay, that's really good advice. So how, um, how does it work like commission-wise and stuff then? Like, how does that work?

We do split deals. Really? Yeah, whoever— who's the client gets 50% and whoever gets the candidate.

Really?

50%.

Okay.

We do have, um, some more sort of slightly different models that have sort of grown in now, but at the time—

at the time, that's what it was.

Yeah, like we have some people where we have like a client manager model where some— one of the BD guys brings on a client, passes it to a consultant who's going to then manage it, and then it's a 25.

So literally just like just getting them through the door and getting the terms. Yeah, okay. Um, how did you do in those 2 years billings-wise then? What'd that look like, mate?

Yeah, so year 1, um, was— I did about £124, just over £124.

All right, yeah, um, it's not bad, is it?

And then, yeah, it was good. And then year 2, it was sort of £210.

Really?

Um, and then, yeah, that's the first 2 years.

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about that because I think Again, a lot of people reach out and say, right, well, this year I'll build 150, 180K, I want to take it to the 250, whatever. So what did you, obviously I'm sure there's so many learnings through that first year. Like what did you start doing more of or less of? Any key things that enable you to take it to the, to break the 200K mark?

Yeah, that's a great question. I've never really thought of it as breaking the 200 being the mark that's right.

Well, if you think about it, you nearly, you said to, what is it?

To 210.

So nearly doubled it, right? So yeah, do you know what I mean?

So I think my first year was like, uh, I started billing in January and our financial year ended in October, so it's like 9 months.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, so I think if I'd maybe had a full financial year, it might have been a bit more, but still a little bit more. So yeah, but I don't really know if it was anything that broke the barrier as such, or whether I became kind of more comfortable with the role.

More comfortable, more confident.

Yeah, you kind of— I don't think I changed anything of what I was doing. I was still making a lot of calls every single day.

So that didn't change? No, no, that didn't change.

The role was the same. I was just— I, I probably had a better qualified spec and I'd learned to kind of qualify better.

Yeah, ask better questions. Yeah, these things.

I probably didn't waste time on clients that—

yeah, yeah. Okay, that makes sense. And, um, how— so at this point, just out of interest, like, how did you structure your day? Like, like, how did you literally make BD calls from the moment you got in?

Yeah, first thing I'd do in the day, I'd get through like what we call our hot calls.

Yeah, really?

Anyone just on the phone straight away, um, Then trying to think what my day was like. Then we'd have like a team meeting in the morning and we'd kind of run through any new clients, say what jobs or clients you've got.

Yeah.

Um, and then it was straight into calls again.

Did you not run out of people to speak to?

Well, I would keep— I would keep mapping the market at the same time.

Yeah.

So it wasn't—

you always make time to do that?

Yeah, these weren't— by that point, after that, the first few weeks, these were targeted calls. You know, I was like looking at LinkedIn. Yeah. Looking at leads that we would get from other client, uh, candidates that we were speaking to. Yeah.

And then I was sort of researching.

I would spend that time normally between like 12 and 2, I would—

yeah, I think—

and then like, yeah, maybe 4, 4 to 5, something like that.

Yeah, yeah. So if you— again, just going in the pure tactics here, because I, because I think it's valuable, um, so like, if I'm thinking about how I should do it, but like, so let's say you've got a client that you're like, right, I've heard some really good things about this business, I really want to work with them, right? Talk to me a bit about that process. So you'd map out the decision makers, decision makers, and how the, how the fuck are you tapping them up then? Because how are you going to get their information? Firstly, you're literally just going to smash a switchboard.

Switchboards, yeah, or whether it's, um, there's loads of plugins these days that you can get that—

Talk to me, mate, what are the plugins?

We use Lusha or Lusha, yeah, that's the main one that we really—

So yeah, that, that, that plugin from what I've heard is you can get access to their mobile number, right? It's quite a lot of the time, potentially, like, demo, but it could be—

So there's a lot in the US where there might be someone with the same name, and so you end up phoning like a Dave Jones who's got the same name and it's the wrong number.

Yeah, how does that work then? So does it pull it from their LinkedIn profile?

I don't—

I honestly don't know.

But it is, it's fucking mental. Apparently they're GDPR compliant.

Yeah, of course they fucking are, mate. And okay, and then just again, I think a lot of people get value out of this. So you've done that, you've got their number. What the fuck are you saying on that call at the first time? Do you know what I mean? Because you've got their number without them knowing. They don't know who you are a lot of the time, right? Like, because like, do people know who you're— no one knows Nick Guy at this point, right?

No, at that point.

That's what I mean. So like, what do you say? How are you opening that call? I'm sure it just comes natural to now?

Well, no, I, I don't think I'd do it the same way. Oh, really? Now to what I, I did then.

Well, talk about how you do it now then, because I'm sure you've optimized it.

Now more of my role is, um, I guess through referral business or through people that I know and kind of mapping the market that way rather than— then it was pure—

because you've built a network now, isn't it? Well, let's talk about pure cold then first, because that's where a lot of people were going to struggle.

I just used to get on the phone and just, and just say like, yeah, I've heard that 'Yeah, my name is Nick from the James, and I've heard that you're looking to, to add to your sales team. Yeah, um, what's the most important thing you're looking for?' Really? Literally straight into that, and then it's quiet.

See what they say.

Hope they go— hope they go into it. Then if they'll obviously throw back objections normally.

Surely— did you spec out candidates? Did you get jobs that way?

We did. I didn't at that point, really, but, um, we as a business, we did. The other people did that.

Yeah, yeah, because that's where I've, I've had so much more success, when you actually have something. It's just a lot easier, isn't it?

So I'd say I started to do that. I definitely should have done it earlier because that's the better—

you know, it's such a better way of success. Yeah, yeah.

I, I— because I didn't work with any candidates, I always— it was always someone else's.

I guess, yeah, from your point of view, calling someone and sort of really knowing how to pitch this person could be a bit difficult because that communication internally has got to be really important.

But in hindsight, what I would do is I'd probably say, look, can I spend 10 minutes with your candidate?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because then it's the other, um, consultant understanding how marketable that candidate is.

Exactly right.

I need 10 minutes. Okay, perfect. I'll know how to spin this to, uh, um, my client. Um, okay, mate. So after those 2 years then, yeah, why did you move down to London?

Um, I wanted to, actually. A lot of my friends had moved down from Manchester to London.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, I'm from Yorkshire originally, and all my friends that I'd sort of grew up with, they'd moved and lived in London. I just—

if you moved to London like you made it?

You've made—

he's made it in Yorkshire!

I just kind of wanted to experience it as well.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

And yeah, so I loved London, so I'm glad I did it.

Okay, so and then how long was you in London for?

It's just under 2 years or around 2 years.

2 years, yeah, yeah. And your objective was to build a— see there wasn't a London team at that point?

There was no office really, open the office and grow a team.

So you literally went out there on your own, obviously you would have got supported obviously but you were in an office on your way up?

Just me on my own.

Really?!

Um, I, uh I didn't— I wasn't on my own in the sense that I had friends that lived here.

Yeah, yeah, no, but work-wise, from a work-wise— and Manchester's not that far away, so yeah, yeah, yeah, mate, come on, that's, that's decent. You did it on your own, right? I get that you've got the support now, which is really important. I'm sure she had the support of everyone, obviously the people, Infinite Gems, and you've got the social support, all important.

But yeah, we've got a good brand as well.

Yeah, so I guess you're 2 years down the line obviously you've had all this BD experience, and then, so then now did you have to do some sourcing? So what was the objective? So what was you trying to do more of? Was it more London clients that you needed to try and work with, or—

I, I wanted to learn that side of the business because I was going to be— I'd built a team in Manchester that was pure BD. So, oh really?

So you built people underneath you?

Yeah, in Manchester. So I built a team including Ben and, and Nadia, a few of our team members there. So I'd built that team but none of them were consultants. So I wanted to— in London, my job was to bring up like consult, BD, and delivery.

Yeah.

Um, so I wanted to, to do it first. I kind of knew I'd be able to do it because I've seen—

you wanted the experience.

I want the experience. Um, I also thought it'd be a bit—

so was it, was it not— so it was you, um, them having any particular more focus on London clients or anything like that, or were you just still doing the same what you did in Manchester but now you had build a team in consultants and not be the people.

Even our Manchester team, a lot of the clients that we work with are already in London.

Okay, cool.

So we were already— we already had the clients. It was just to be there on the ground but have it and have a team on the ground.

That was the advantage, to have a team on the ground in London? Yeah. Um, okay, mate, let's talk a bit about that then. So that, that your role must have been totally— so I didn't realize, so you managed— how many people did you manage before you went down to London?

I think we got up to 5 or 6.

Really?

6? Yeah, yeah.

Did you want to manage?

Yeah, I, I think I did at the time. Like, I can't— I'm trying to remember. You can't— in recruitment, you kind of just have success, then you fall into it. Yeah, timing was everything. I, I don't think I would have asked for it at that point if it wasn't offered to me. Yeah, I think I would have just carried on doing— I was happy doing my job. When the opportunity came, I thought, let's see what this is like, let's see what you can do.

Okay, so, so you gain that experience of hiring 5 people, which is obviously going to help you in this in London. Um, and let's talk a bit about that then. So what, what was the objective for the first 6 to 12 months when you was in? So you was only there for 2 years? Yep. And what time— how big was the team by the time you left?

Uh, it was at 12, I think.

Really? Fuck. All right, so what, what was the focus for you then going down there then? Like, what, what, how did, how do things change for you?

So the difference is when I went down originally, there was no plan to leave at that.

Really?

So we, we didn't have a time scale of like, you It's 2 years, you've got 2 years to do it.

Yeah, no, but you was going there to build the London team. Build the team.

And we actually went down first and tried to replicate what I'd done originally. Oh really? So it would be to build a BD team.

Yeah.

We realized that without the support of the consultants—

Internally, that internal communication, internal relationship.

Yeah, exactly.

It was a lot more difficult to do.

Yeah.

Okay. What did you do then, mate?

We ripped it up and started again and made some consultants.

Okay, so what, what does your day now look like? Because all of a sudden you've got to worry about getting people into your door, you've got to worry about sourcing, you've got to worry about getting clients. Yeah, talk to me about that, mate.

I'm trying to think really what— what there's— you just kind of have to do it, don't you? Yeah, there's no like—

you've clearly got that mentality. Yeah, I get that.

I was just working longer hours, really. Um, and there's no like— I don't think there's a secret. No, you've just got to work out how how to— what stuff is really important that you need to do and what stuff you, you probably were doing that you shouldn't be doing.

Yeah, so you, you worked out what, what, what activities to focus on to get you close to the outcomes that you wanted, right? So how did you structure that at this point? Because that, that must have been a challenge for you to, to— obviously you can work long hours, longer hours, obviously I was working longer hours, but how did you make time to do everything that you needed to at this point?

I would get in early, get all my BD calls done Yeah, and I would do BD calls late as well.

Really?

We're starting to build up our US market there, so we had—

oh really?

US clients as well at this point. Um, so obviously I could do those later in the evening, really. But it was— I did have a lot of support from, from the Manchester office as well. So we have internal trainers, they were doing training and stuff like that and help— helping out from that perspective. Yeah, but it was just spending a lot more time with the team, really, and just focusing on—

yeah, trying to make them successful. How quickly did you get some more people into the London office? And was it quite quick?

We hired 3 like right away, I think.

Oh really? So you instantly had some people to work on and help them?

Yeah, I'd already come down to do some like interviews and stuff before I made the move. And so we had at least one— I think we had 3 starting by November and I moved in October.

All right, okay. So you had a couple of people already sort of in the pipeline that was going to start. Okay, that's good. Okay, cool. And then how— so did this affect your billings, like having to do all this different stuff?

It did in like Q2. So our Q1 is October to December, um, Q2. Yeah, that first Q2 when I was in there, I think I did like maybe a third of what I would know was doing the previous Q2, but then I made it back up in later in there.

Yeah, in the year. And is that— that's because you— there's just so much shit going on.

Yeah, I think it was just a new, a new challenge. Like I said, trying to work out what the day-to-day would look like.

Yeah. And some of it you by—

because for me I had to do a lot of it by trial and error. We'd never opened up a London office before, and I certainly hadn't done consultancy either.

Yeah. Have you— so has this always been the, the Nick guy, then, mate? Just to like learn, fail, optimize, do things better? Do you know what I mean? Like, where's this come from? Is— I don't know, just out of interest, because it seems like, yeah, this doesn't really faze you. But like, a lot— that's obviously a great achievement, right? But I think the fact that you're approaching it that way is how you should approach it.

Yeah, it's very easy for me to look back on it and talk like— whether I was like that at the time, you'd have to ask some of the people that are with me.

Yeah, that's fair enough.

Right now it's very easy to look back and reflect on it and say, oh yeah, I made this mistake, I did that. But at the time, maybe I didn't think I was making the mistake until you just had the complete inner ambition to make it fucking work.

Yeah, make it happen.

But I'm very money— I was very money driven.

Was you?

So yeah, so I wanted to make a lot of money, still do want to like make a lot of money. And, and why do you want to make a lot of money? I don't know really, that's a good point. Just to, to be able to afford things in the future, you know. Yeah, yeah, to invest it and, and do the things I want to do. I like to travel actually.

Yeah, okay.

Finney James allowed me to do a bit of that, so I do like to do my— pay for my own travel as well.

Yeah, sure. No, no, it's, it's interesting because I think I've asked it quite a few times now, like, if you're interviewing a consultant, I go, yeah, Nick, I want to get in recruitment because I want— I'm motivated by money. Yeah, like, is that enough for you? Yeah, I mean, because is that gonna do the same as you?

Yeah, I'm like, well, what?

Why?

Why do you want money?

But you don't even know.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm a hypocrite.

Yeah, no, I get— yeah, because it's like, if the thing is, if it— if you do have a bit more attached to it, then it's going to help you get through those fucking tough times, isn't it?

Do you know what I mean? I just always liked it. So like from a young age, from— I think I started work from age 13, like working, just grafting, washing dishes in a pub because I knew I wanted money to be able to do things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it gives you options, right?

Exactly.

Okay, mate. So how— so then how did you, billions-wise, before you went to San Fran? And we'll talk a bit about how that came about. Like what, what did that look like then? Did it continue to increase or—

no, I think I did, uh, so I did 210 in my second year and I did 216 in my Third one, I think it was. Um, and then the fourth one was like when I kind of made the move halfway through our financial year. Yeah, yeah, to, uh, to— yeah, and then that became like, in pounds, it was about £333,000, I think.

Okay, all right. So, and a bit around the, um, you building the team in London. So the, so the consultants that you took on, was it still the— so you did all the bidding and they did the sourcing? Was that, or did they do 360?

We did BD, so I—

Oh, sorry, sorry.

Yeah, I was training BD people, tried to replicate what we'd done in Manchester.

Yeah.

Realized that actually the reason it worked in Manchester was because we had a strong internal relationship, and then we decided, yeah, these guys had done some BD training, so they became more, more delivery focused than they were previously, but they could still do BD.

They still do a bit because they had the training. Yeah.

So they became, I guess you could say, 360, but there was a weight, heavy weighting on delivery.

Really? Okay. And what did you— what did you see? So those people that worked under you, mate, what, what are some of the common things that you saw in these people that enabled them to have the success that they wanted? Or some of the common things that you've seen that have prevented people having success? And let's talk a bit about that because I'm sure you've learned a bit along because you've always continued to build teams and see different people and those things.

Definitely. Yeah, I think I think what I would say is having one person to go and open the office isn't necessarily the best way to do it. I think that most people, whether you— because we were doing a grad model, they learn through seeing other people do it, hearing people on the phone.

So you only hired grads?

We did, so because it worked well in Manchester, yeah, yeah, we tried to do it again, um, and we had some people that were perhaps more experienced, but I think it would have been nicer to have some of our more senior consultants go down as well. Whereby you can learn, and— or they could spend time with them.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, because that's how I learned. I kind of sat next to some of the senior people when I was— it's a kind of sponge, just took in and listened to what they were doing, what worked well, and then work out my own way of doing it and then try and do it better, you know.

Yeah, yeah. So some of these, uh, non-experienced people then, like, what, what are some of the things that— because look, a lot of people quit recruitment in the first 12 months. A lot of people listen to this, maybe earlier on in their career or later on in their career, like What are some of the things that you've seen, mate? That—

yeah, I mean, I always like people that like had a job when they were at university, or they don't necessarily need to have gone to university but have worked from a young age to show that sort of outside, I guess you'd call it hustle, where they've kind of gone out to try and get it on their own.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, those people have always been the more successful people, really. Yeah.

Why do you think that is then? Because they can take— they have a bit more, a bit more grit to them.

Yeah, so I think that I like people that have done like multiple things. If they've played sport, they've had a job, and they were doing some form of education they can show that they can manage their time well to be able to do things. And if they've done them all at high level, you've, you've got that aspect of they've been able to overachieve in, in multiple areas. Yeah, I think that's important in recruitment because you do juggle a lot. Yeah, and you have to work hard at the same time.

Totally. Okay, so, um, and then, so, so how much American business were you doing before you went to America? Did you have quite a few American clients?

I did have quite a few. I, I couldn't tell you the percentages.

No, that's cool, that's cool. But, um, did that just happen naturally then? Like, did a lot of your UK clients have American arms to their business?

Yeah, I actually started it when I was in Manchester. There was a consultant that worked at the time and I that started— we used to stay late on it, so we'd start late on a Friday and we'd stay late on a Friday.

Fucking hell.

And we'd, we'd work, mate, we'd work till like 8 o'clock. Yeah, really? Um, and then we'd go straight to the town after, straight to— yeah, straight to the pub afterwards, and, and, you know, we'd have a beer at our desk or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, that's kind of how it started. I can't really remember if Did you just recognize an opportunity? Yeah, I think someone said, no, I'm not looking here, but I'm looking in the— in New York, or wherever it was.

Well, let's get some clients and then let's give it a go.

And really, you suddenly work out that the fees are twice as much, the terms are bigger, and yeah, uh, it's just as easy.

So, um, mate, let's talk a bit about this because I think, um, I, I have weekly conversations now with recruitment businesses that are opening and opening American offices.

Yep.

So let's talk a bit about what you've learned through this process of doing more American business, going out to America.

Yep.

I'm sure you've learned a lot there. A lot, you know what I mean? So like, firstly, continue to make mistakes, I'll tell you that. Really? But I guess what— so did you just approach it— I'm sure you would have just approached it the exact same way that you approached it, the UK clients, straight away. So you mapped out who these people were, found decision makers, and you're calling them and saying hi. Manage Nick Guy.

Naturally, we already— we have a lot of— because what we do in sales, a lot of people do their first man on the ground or first woman on the ground in the, in the UK.

And so to be a quite senior salesperson.

Yeah. So we just then with those clients, they already have a US, um, sort of presence, so we just land back and expand back into those businesses.

Okay, so you let— so you leveraged your existing relationships. Yep.

And started some new ones as well.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, but that makes sense. So yeah, what would your advice be then to people that want to, um, get more American business? Start from scratch.

It's easier to, to do, to go out there if you've already got a client base. So I would say start while you're in the UK. We have a team still that purely focus— they're called the US team and they're based in Manchester and they focus on the US market.

But if I'm a recruiter and I recognize an opportunity that, as you said, bigger fees, bigger fees, terms seem higher, and yeah, terms are higher—

I say, when I say just as easy, I don't mean recruitment's easy, but it's, it's the same difficulty level as doing—

yeah, exactly. But the rules are higher, right?

Exactly.

Because of the profit margin, those things. So yeah, if I'm a recruiter right now and in my market there's a real opportunity to go over to America, um, or to do more American business because of the sector I'm in, what's your advice, mate, through what you've learned? What am I doing?

Do it. Yeah, yeah, take it. Go in.

But what— I need to get clients, so how am I going to do that? What's about— what should I do?

I think for me there was no difference to doing out here. You want to speak to some candidates and get some leads off them.

Yeah.

You want to map out who you want to speak to and the businesses you want to work with.

Yeah.

And if you know your industry, stick with your niche.

Yeah.

And, and go and speak to those clients. But it is easier if you know people. So if you've got clients, you've got existing relationships, and leverage those.

Yeah. Start, start all of a sudden, you can start the call. Look, I've been working with your UK team for this, what, for this amount of period.

Yeah.

This is why I wanted to—

especially because we work with a lot of startups, so the businesses are naturally small.

Yeah.

If you're working with huge corporations like, I don't know, like someone like Deloitte, I'm sure they have— they're like—

yeah, yeah, yeah. So leverage existing relationships. That's good advice. And how received was it that this American decision maker was on the phone all of a sudden to some guy in Manchester? Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, how is that received? Because I'm sure some people will make assumptions that, like, how, like, how is that going to be received? You know what I mean? Is it gonna be positive or mixed review?

Some people are like, yeah, well, you can't come and meet the candidates because you're in Manchester. And, and so you come across that. But most of them, hiring is one of their number one No one challenges. Yeah, if you can solve the problem, then they're kind of open to it, but you've got to be able to solve the— convince them that you can solve it.

Yeah, totally. So yeah, I get that. So how do you, how do you, um, how do you deal with that objection then? Like, okay, well, you're in the UK, so how, how are you going to know?

Sometimes you can't.

They just really—

they just won't do it. And, um, we'd say, well, we're opening up a new office.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, that sort of stuff.

But so, um, you just say, give me a chance.

Yeah, sure. And did you, um, so did you do obviously quite a bit of American business before you went over? Yeah, as you said.

Yeah, you, you first say more than like 25% of my billings were coming from America.

Really?

Yeah, before. I don't know exactly, but it was definitely more than a quarter.

That's okay. So why did you want to go to San Fran, mate?

Yeah, that's a good question. I actually wanted to go to New York.

Oh, did you?

At first, but we had more clients in San Francisco. Um, my brother was actually out in San Francisco as well, so I had family there. Oh really? Yeah, at the time. He's not anymore, but at the time he was. And culturally, it's— San Francisco seems a little bit closer to Manchester and what our business is like. New York seems— I've not lived there, so I don't know, but it seems a lot kind of faster, faster-paced, like hustle and bustle of New York that you hear about, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Swallow you and spit you out.

Yeah, exactly. So, okay, so again the person you are, you start for a challenge. Yeah, yeah, went for it. You don't think anything else?

I didn't really know. I just—

who did you go over with?

I went on my own.

On your own? Yeah. And then you're just all of a sudden in an office on your own in San Fran?

No, so we, we hired— so we— I went out for like a month in November '17, I think it was, and we'd hired 3 people to start then.

Yeah.

And the mistake we made, I guess, is we thought that we'd get the visa so that I could back out in January, so I'd go home for December I'd be back in January, but my visa actually got delayed because of a couple of reasons. Mr. Trump kind of slowed down things, and the embassy moved, which meant I didn't actually get my visa until June. Really? So we had 3 grads that had 6— like, well, they had 6 months, just on the— 7 months really, on their own.

Oh, fuck, really?

Yeah.

Was you managing from the UK?

I was managing from the UK. Oh, shit. That In hindsight, what I would do is I would have brought more of my colleagues out with me.

Yeah, um, so people you've already got relationships with.

Yeah, exactly. So that, well, you can build more, a better culture when you've got a few people that know the business. Um, and I'd have liked to be on the ground with them for the start. So we made that mistake, but we kind of rolled with the punches and, yeah, yeah, and tried, tried to make it work.

So when did you get out there? June?

June, yeah, yeah.

Okay, and then how long have you been there now?

So a year, so that was last year, June last year. Yeah, okay.

So what the hell's been going on in that year then, mate? What's been going on?

Ups and downs. We've—

Really?

Yeah, we've kind of had a— the revenue's been like real good. So we just seem to be growing. Our US revenue base has just continued to grow. Grow, yeah. What we've kind of learned is that it's very expensive to hire in San Francisco. Okay. Anyway, let alone—

For what type of skill set? Like literally a grad with no experience, really?

No experience.

More expensive.

Exactly. And a lot of them don't quite know what— not that they don't know, but they haven't experienced— obviously they haven't experienced agency recruitment or, you know, the differences internal and agency. And it's very easy for them to— well, they're just coming to test out agency, and it's an expensive way to test, test out for us. And then they decide that it's not for them, they go internal or they go and try a different job. Um, and so in—

so you're saying that they're not the Nick guys of, uh, 80 calls a day, fucking smash it out?

No, exactly. They're not not everyone is. And yeah, I don't think recruitment is that anymore. No, no, you don't need to do that to be successful in this job.

And but that's something that you've learned, right? That one, it's expensive to hire someone that, as you said, might be actually testing as a career or whatever. But then also, I guess what you're saying is may not have the— I don't know, the, the approach or skill set to— yeah, how, how you'd like it, or how you, you need a bit more from them, basically.

I think I hired too quickly as well, really. So I think, um, because we went from like like when I got out there, from— there were 3 to then myself was 4 to 9 in about 2 months, 3 months. Um, and that meant that I was obviously kind of pulled in, but I was still bringing on clients, still trying to make revenue as well as train these people, did everything else. And, and probably should have spent more time focusing on the, the team, on a smaller group, the people that you already had. Yeah, yeah. Rather than, rather than trying to hire to, to make numbers, because actually it doesn't really matter how many people you have.

Yeah, exactly.

That you have good people that—

yeah, yeah. So, um, okay, mate, that's really interesting. And what— so what have been that— I guess that's just sort of the nuances of people that worked in— growing up in America, right? So what are some of the things that you've picked up on around that then that you now look out for, or what are some of the differences?

I think I'm still learning that. I don't think there's an answer to that yet that I've really worked out. But there are some, some differences in, in— yeah, the work-life balance is very different.

In what way?

In California particularly, people will like come in— in other offices they come in at 9 and they leave at 3:30.

Really?

Which is very different to what I'm used to in recruitment here, where it's like, yeah, you're in at 8 and you leave at 6 minimum sort of thing. Yeah, it's probably less like that these—

yeah, I know what you mean—

recently.

But, but it's— yeah, so it's a bit more relaxed and it's a bit, bit more— it's—

yeah, it's just like a Yeah, yeah, it's like that. But, um, yeah, I, I don't think that the challenges of hiring are any different. I experienced the same challenges with people in the UK.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

As I, I am out.

But I guess, did you have to like position the opportunity differently? Do you know what I mean? Like, did you have to talk about recruitment in a different way?

About recruitment in a different way? Um, kind of the differences between agency and internal, I had to talk about a lot.

And because in that, like, corporate they call it, is that internal or not?

I've not heard it called that. They might—

oh really?

Um, I've not heard it called, called that, but yeah, they might do, because I've heard like corporate recruiter, like I've seen that quite a lot on LinkedIn. I have seen that. I think that's from a job title perspective.

They might do.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so talk to me about some of the, the sort of experiences that you found from now working in America, living in America. And obviously, so I'm assuming quite a lot of your business— do you still obviously have UK clients?

I do have— I have a couple of UK. Really?

But do you have predominantly now American clients? So what have you learned through that process, mate? Like, how have you— so obviously I know there's no difference in terms of the tactics and how you're approaching it, but like, why is it, do you think, that they're willing to pay more fees? What do you know? I mean, like, what— I mean, I've, I've had a few conversations around it, but what's, what's your perspective as to why people willing to do that?

Yeah, so it's not always the case that people are willing to pay higher margins. I think as a general rule, our margins are probably higher Yeah, but the salaries are higher. So San Francisco, as I mentioned, it's more expensive. Therefore, when you charge a percentage, it's relative, isn't it? Naturally it goes up.

So it's, um, and if you just focused in the state of San Fran, or have you tried to—

we do across the whole US.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Because we'll get a lot of clients where they'll build a sales team and it's like, we want one person in the Pacific Northwest, one, one in the Bay Area, one in New York. And, and so you kind of help them all.

But surely you've got to focus though, surely, because it's so big.

Yeah, so we focus on, on the sales vertical rather than— so, you know, anything that's related to the sales.

Yeah, yeah, okay. So I guess, how are these— what's the difference in terms of the perception of recruitment over there then, do you think, that you've picked up on? Because look, in the UK it doesn't have a great name whatsoever. So do you know what I mean? What—

yeah, I think people really— there's a lot of people that want to get into recruitment, like, and what they've heard about is they've— it's not like a— say, they don't see it as a sales role very often.

Really?

I think it's more about like, yeah, we want to help people with their careers. Yeah, I'm an advisor and I'm, and I'm that when— so we're kind of educating them that the agency side of it is actually a lot— although you do do that, yeah, helping parts, it's a sales role, you know. Yeah, you're gonna make things happen and you run your own little desk in your own business.

Yeah.

Um, but I think there is that perception that you're helping and you're, you're a career advisor, career coach kind of thing. Yeah, fucking—

I definitely didn't feel a lot of career coach, did you? Jesus Christ. Um, what I was going to say— okay, cool. So slight, slight segue, um, because I know we focused on sort of you building teams and your experiences through that. I see a lot of you online, mate. Obviously it's something I'm really passionate about, um, personal branding, these things. I'll talk about it a lot on here. But how is that— I mean, I feel like you're pretty consistent. You sort of understand how you want to be perceived. You're communicating well. Like, what How has that helped you as a recruiter, do you know what I mean? Because I think that's a big part of how it's changing.

Yeah, it has, it has helped, it has.

In what way?

In, in the sense that there have been times, and it's only happened— so I've been trying to post and like at least once a day sort of thing, um, when I'm in work, try to do at least a post a day. I've been doing that probably since I moved out there, or tried to, some ups and downs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I don't know, honestly, I think you've been pretty consistent. And you don't— all I said, you don't have to post every day, but you've been pretty consistent.

And I tried to keep that consistency. And now sometimes when I speak to candidates, like, oh, I've seen your posts, and people have said that to me, it's like, oh, I know, so you're the guy that posts this? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I have. And yeah, um, I would say that.

But how is that— how does that help? Obviously I know how it helps me, but how does it— how does it help you as a recruiter? Because people are still trying to understand how you trying to post every couple of days is going to benefit my billings or help me benefit me as a recruiter, do you know what I mean? So it's helped you because how?

I would say that, well, from, from one perspective, it's a warmer call if people have already seen you. It's a warm call, definitely agree, straight in there. You've got some credibility and they see you as an expert.

Yeah.

And people want that. There's, there's a lot of noise in recruitment, there's a lot of noise in probably every industry at the moment. So if you can position yourself as an expert who adds real value throughout the process Yeah, then people are more likely to want to work with you.

So it's— yeah, I couldn't agree more. So I, I, that's what I experienced in recruitment was, ah, Hishem Azzouz, I saw your video, and then, yeah, it's that perception piece, isn't it? It's like, okay, so this guy, one, knows what he's doing, two, he should definitely hopefully be able to help me. And, um, obviously you've got a lot of competition, right, as a recruiter.

I like the engagement as well, you know, having conversations with people that you might not necessarily be speaking to, and, and you've you're kind of creating a pipeline of, of like a talent pool or talent market.

Yeah, exactly.

That you can tap into in the future. So it's thinking that long-term game rather than the short—

oh, totally.

Oh, it's not going to benefit me now, but there's people that I've probably spoken to online and that have regular conversations because they post on my—

and comment on your stuff. Yeah.

Um, that maybe in a year's time I can help them find a job.

Exactly. You're paying it forward, right?

Yeah, yeah.

That's what it's about.

And I think, yeah, hiring managers in, in 6 months.

That's the right mindset, isn't it? It's like, yeah, yeah, building a recruitment desk, it's the exact same thing, isn't it? It's the long-term game where you see the, the real success, right?

Um, I've seen successes from others that do it well in like this. So people that, um, focus on building the sales, there's a few like people that I've seen do really well, and I also like that idea.

And, and, oh, what, from what, in your market?

I wouldn't say they're not recruiters, but they're, they might be consultants that help sit the similar sort of clients to what we do.

Yeah.

And they try and position themselves as experts in sales.

So you've learned from that? Yeah. Okay, absolutely. Now that makes sense. How, um, how do you— look, you've been in recruitment for quite a while now. I know obviously you, you're probably someone that is super focused and, uh, cracks on, but like, how do you see the— obviously you've moved to New York, I'm seeing this is exciting.

Yep. So like, really excited about that.

How, uh, how, how do you see recruitment changing over the, the next couple of years?

That's a good question. I think maybe a couple of years. I'm not sure whether it'll change that, that much, but I think there'll be less of an office focus.

Really?

I think I see a lot and hear a lot of people talking about work-life balance. Yeah, the flexibility to work from home, 9 till 3:30 hours. Yeah, that sort of stuff. Um, but it's, it's that flexibility that the time that you would spend commuting.

Yeah, yeah.

Why you need to do that. And I think There's a lot of people that are posting about that at the moment.

I think, I think you've got, I think you've got to know what works for you as well though, isn't it? Like, for me, um, I, I would find it really difficult sitting at home in my underpants. Like, yeah, yeah, I need to be around humans. Like, I know that. Whereas, do you know what I mean? Like, I think you've got to have some self-awareness. Self-awareness is important, do you know what I mean? You've got to have some self-awareness as to what, what works for me and what's going to enable me to, yeah, have the best success.

But I think it's going to be just because there's so much noise in the market and and you'll probably have the stats better than I do about how many agencies are kind of coming up. You've got to position yourself as an expert and add value.

Yeah, totally.

And it's now what we— I guess we would have traditionally probably added throughout the process. You know, this is, this is a feature or a benefit of what we do. You've now got to do before the— yeah, the sale even starts.

Totally. And I think just to add on what you're talking about there, I think everything that you post and all these things, it doesn't replace you doing what the fuck you're great at, which is building relationships. You know, it it just helps it, you know what I mean? So it's, it's about combining the two. That, that's— it's never— for me, it's not going to replace the proactive calling, having the conversations. But as you said, it's—

so LinkedIn's now like your online— it's your reputation, right?

Exactly.

So people will, people will check you out there for credibility as well. So if you've pitched them on the phone and they're like, is this guy an expert or is he just another, you know, in his living room in Manchester?

Exactly.

But he'll go check out and say, oh yeah, he's got of engagement. Yeah, so it's credibility too, I think.

Okay, mate, so look, conscious of time, um, quickly before we finish, what I always like to ask, and I think I know I've sort of tried to ask you about it already, but do you do anything yourself to invest, like, personally on your own development, like mindset stuff? Because look, Manchester to London, yeah, to San Fran, it's now New York. That's, that's, uh, that's some real shit, mate, to deal with that, do you know what I mean? Like, I wouldn't— I know maybe it just comes natural to you, but have you— do you make time to invest in yourself. And do you know what I mean?

Yeah, um, I think I know what you're talking about. So I guess I do, from the sense that I listen to a lot of podcasts, um, I try and consume as much content as I can from a learning point of view. Yeah, I think we both— I think you do too, but I just thought Gary Vee. Yeah, um, I really kind of— that's when I listened to his podcast, I started getting into more of them and kind of listening to a few other people now.

Yeah, yeah. But, um, so you do make time to invest in yourself because I try to read as well. Yeah, because I think that all of that, like, you're gonna— obviously you'll learn it through the ways you're going, but you're gonna have to have some real solid I don't know what you're gonna call it, habits, tactics that you can lean on to help you fucking get through those times, right? It's gonna be tough.

Having a mentor is—

have you had a— do you have a mentor?

I have two, yeah.

Really?

Yeah, yeah.

Outside of Finley James?

Uh, one is now working— Andrew McCaskill.

Oh, okay.

Was— we'd only done a couple of sessions and then he ended up joining Finley James, but wow. Um, so he's still— obviously we work closer together now.

How did you get a mentor? Because there'll be a lot of people listening. I'll put people in touch with people.

I just went and asked. So really, the other mentor that I have is actually a British guy in San Francisco, um, and I just went and asked him.

Okay.

And I said, look, you've clearly been successful and you've, you've kind of gone through— he's outside of the recruitment industry.

Yeah.

But he's set up an office in San Francisco.

Yeah.

So I think I could learn a lot from an outsider's perspective.

And, um, so did you literally just position it from like, look, I've, I feel like like, did you sort of position it anyway? Like, what's in it for— I don't know, do you know what I mean?

I think it's a— I've never been asked to be a mentor, but I would— from what I've heard from the feedback, it's a flattering thing to be.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah, um, yeah.

So I think, yeah, so you literally just reached out, what, LinkedIn, or just phoned him?

I just phoned him.

Did you? Yeah, obviously you picked up the phone.

I already knew him, so— oh yeah, yeah, yeah, which makes it a little—

how did you position that then? Because again, trust me, there'll be a lot of people listening that are like, you know what, that I think I'd really benefit from having a mentor. So Yeah, actually identify some people.

LinkedIn have just done one in the US where they've sent out an email where you can be a mentor and have things really to give back as well. So I'm, I'm going to this in the US.

That's interesting. Really?

They're running an event on like the 30th of July or something where I've signed up and said that I will go for whatever the one-hour period is, and then it's to mentor like grads.

Yeah. And how has that helped you?

Um, I would say it's just sometimes it's good to just talk about things. Yeah, to bounce the ideas, particularly when for me, when I was sort of 8 hours behind on a time zone from, from our headquarters, if business challenges come up, it's just, it's just good to bounce it. That this is what I'm thinking, am I going crazy? Yeah, am I overthinking this? Or whatever it is. Um, and having an outsider's perspective, someone who's not in the industry but has been built, it's valuable, was real valuable because you think of things that I wouldn't.

Yeah, I think that's really interesting actually, because I think, um, I think more recruiters could benefit from that, couldn't they? They're actually getting someone who maybe hasn't worked in recruitment or whatever, get their perspective as to how they could build their business or their recruitment desk or whatever.

From a— it's the same, right? You know, when you join the business, you sit next to the— you always try to sit next to the top biller. Yeah, learn what they're doing.

Really? Well, not everyone would do that, and maybe naturally you did that, mate.

Yeah, we were a small office in Manchester, really, so I was kind of sat with everyone.

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Well, um, before we finish that, mate, obviously excited about New York. Yep. But what, what else is going on in your world, mate, that you're excited about? What's going on?

That's it, really.

Really?

New York. Yeah, I love it.

So what's the plan? What's the plan for New York then? Like, are you going over on your own or—

but I'm not, no. Justine from our San Francisco office is coming to New York.

So two of you?

Yeah, two of us. Yeah.

And you're just gonna smash it up from day one, basically?

Yeah, we're gonna— I think we're gonna learn from the mistakes that we've made, and rather than— so it's expensive to hire grads out there, we're gonna hire more experience.

People. Oh yeah.

Um, and focus on little talent pools rather than build like a big headquarters in New York on Manhattan Island where it's really, really expensive. I think having 2 or 3 people that are on the ground there, 2 or 3 people in Boston, 2 or 3 people in Chicago, little pockets of people, little pockets of people that can, can be there but perhaps more senior.

Yeah. What's the next state that you're going to move to there, mate?

Next state? I think I'm gonna stick with New York for a while.

Really?

I could see myself there.

Have you, have you been there? Obviously on holiday.

I've been 4 or 5 times to New York.

How would you describe it then? Because, um, I had a guy on here a couple of weeks ago who's from New York and worked in New York as a recruiter. And then I lived with a guy who's a recruiter who went to New York and it just absolutely chewed him up and spat him out. Like, literally, it was in a bad, bad, bad way. I was like, what the fuck have I done? Like, it's just too— so, like, how— I don't know, they shouldn't be going there. No, but obviously, look, you know yourself. So, like, been there 4 or 5 times. People considering over to New York, like, what should they be thinking about? Like, what have you thought about and what are you expecting?

So to be honest, because it's not till October, you know, from where you're going to live, I think it's good to have an idea of where you want to live, but you can't really pick any. You've got to be super aggressive when you get there. So yeah, I guess all I'm thinking of is that I really enjoyed my time in London. Yeah, I moved to San Francisco, I've enjoyed it. I prefer the bigger city.

Yeah, yeah, um, a bit more of a buzz.

Yeah, exactly. And all my visits to New York, I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, so I'm gonna go see what it's like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough, man. I like it. Look, last question, mate. Um, I always like to ask it. If you could, um, communicate to every single recruiter out there, it could be a phrase, sentence, a word, whatever, they'd listen, they'd take your advice, what would you say?

I would say, I think you've got to keep learning and developing. Like, don't ever become complacent. I think it's very easy, like, when you're in a small business as well, that if you reach the kind of top level, you kind of— that's— you set that bar. I would never say there's a bar. There are people, and I've learned once we sort of— I sort of hit the top level at Finley James, that that was actually only a drop in the ocean compared to what some people out there are doing.

Yeah.

And I think you've just got to always have that growth mindset.

Yeah.

And just keep developing, keep learning, and position yourself with people who know what they're doing.

I like it, mate. Nick, it's been a pleasure, mate. Cool. Thanks for doing that. I'll speak to you soon. Yeah.