Paul Church - Community, management, & prioritisation for success!

So when I was a leader at the beginning, I was just controlling, you know, I'd just say, right, do it this way, this is how you've got to do it.

Yeah.

I wasn't really allowing anyone any opportunity to innovate themselves or flourish. I was very directive. I think it's just down to the planning, which is don't just look at what's on your desk right now, think about what's going to be on your desk in a couple of months' time. But again, what's the most, you know, it comes down to prioritisation. What's the most important thing? It's developing people and it's winning new business.

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. On this week's episode, I was joined by Paul Church. Paul has worked in recruitment for 14 years, and for the first 11 of those, he climbed the ranks within a brand called Binks, and then for the last couple of years he's been the managing director for InterQuest, and more recently started his own recruitment business called the Anima Group. If you are someone that wants to be a top performer, a successful contract recruiter, you're going to love this episode. And we also really dug deep into how Paul's gone about building communities and talent pools in his markets. Enjoy the episode. Paul Church, welcome to the podcast.

Good to be here, mate. How you doing?

I'm good. Thanks for coming to the space. What do you think?

Podcast goals right here, isn't it?

Obviously you've been doing your own podcast. So yeah, hopefully, I mean, I definitely didn't start it here. Started it in my bedroom on a mobile phone. So hopefully, no doubt you'll have your own podcast studio space soon.

One day I'll be in the Dream Factory.

So where we always like to start this podcast is just probably something that you thought a lot about with your journey, hiring a lot of people, managing people. So would love to hear your take on Like, what do you believe are the characteristics and traits that really make up a high-performing recruiter in today's market? Let's start there.

Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's changed a lot over the years, certainly since I first got into recruitment. I think now you need a lot more substance. I think you need a real appetite to become an expert in your market. You know, the days of generalists are long, long gone. So you really got to know your stuff because you've got to be able to Contribute to the communities you work in and add value to the clients you've got, the candidates you've got, and really stand out. So it's not about gift of the gab anymore. Certainly not. It's about really wanting to be an expert and own your market. And that takes a certain type of person. Need an intellectual aptitude, of course. Just an appetite to be the best.

Love it. You use that word community there. Did that word get chucked around a lot when you started your career?

No, absolutely not. No, no, no, not at all. It was get on the phones, get on the phones, get on the phones. Community was something that came along, I think. And what I think I realised just by accident, if I built this community or ecosystem and I owned, uh, the— I owned that, I had access to who the clients were, who the candidates were, and they knew me. That's what I wanted. And so community came from that for me.

What— just, just on this really quickly, just interested, like, what, what do you think are the main sort of different mindset shifts when you think about my market over serving the community? Do you know what I mean? What do you think of the, if I'm a recruiter right now that still sees it as like, it's my market, that's how I'm approaching it over I'm building my community that I can help support, serve, doing the same job. But I don't know, what do you think of the, if someone's like my market over community, what do you think of the sort of differences on the mindset piece or like how they're approaching things, thinking about things?

[Speaker] I think community for me is about giving something back and certainly giving something back first. And if you do the right things, I believe the right things happen. And if I think recruitment typically is seen as an industry, as something that takes from the market it works in rather than gives something back. So you can stand out quite easily by actually contributing in a positive way, be it by bringing people together, be it by sharing information or data. So I think it's about giving something back first for me.

Yeah, I like that. Giving more than you take. I think the funny thing is, right, some people think, well, like, does that mean you won't be able to achieve your goals and won't be able to get as much out of your market community as much as you think? But actually it's, I don't know, we're going to go into how you found it, but actually what I found is the actual more that you give, the more it comes around and the more opportunities you get in these things.

Absolutely. And I think you've got to make sure you tread the balance right and you know when to sell as well. You've got to know when to sell because if you just build this great community but you don't ask for anything, you don't try and get anything from it, then you've built it for nothing. But I think it's about getting the balance right between the commercial and, uh, and the authenticity.

Love it. So a lot that we can go into, but I guess just to frame it up, obviously started your career with a business where you ended up working there for about 11 or so years. So we'll talk a bit about that and, and your journey and progression, your career, and then went into an MD position which you're still involved in now, and then more recently started your own recruitment business as well. Yeah, so I guess let's just start then. I guess like Who was Paul before recruitment, out of interest?

Paul was on the dole before recruitment.

Really?

Yeah, Paul was lost. Didn't have a clue. I got a decent degree and I worked in TV production for a little while.

Okay.

Ended up losing my job, sat on the dole for 3 or 4 months, and I didn't really know what I was going to do. And it wasn't— I didn't have any burning ambition to make loads of money, but I needed to make some money, and recruitment just kept popping up and popping up. I thought, right, I'll give it a go.

Yeah.

So yeah, I was completely completely lost, didn't know what I was going to do with myself.

So how old was you roughly, do you remember?

22.

Really?

Wow.

23. It can be quite daunting, that, can it? Especially when you went to uni and then you're like, what the hell am I going to do?

Yeah. And in hindsight, you know, anyone picked my degree, which was journalism, didn't realize that it was going to be really hard to earn any money from it.

Yeah.

Did get a job in it, then lost my job, and then couldn't find another job in it. So I was like, what have I been doing myself the last 4 years, whatever, a waste.

So when you sort of— it was Mortimer Spinks, right, that you joined? So when you joined there, is it fair to say, did you have a bit of chip on your shoulder then, that you had a bit of a like, right, I need to to make this work, or what was the mindset early on?

I think early on I was, didn't really, still didn't know what I wanted to do. So I was just probably a bit annoyed that I was having to go and work in recruitment. I couldn't find anything else. And I think the chip on my shoulder came after my first 3 months when they didn't want to keep me.

Really?

And they weren't going to pass my probation. I really kind of dug my heels in because I thought, right, if I lose my job here, then that's the second thing that's, you know, not worked out for me. Where do I go? So I thought, no, keep me. And then I had a chip on my shoulder for a few months of it.

Why didn't they want to keep you?

I wasn't applying myself, I wasn't committed to it. I was there because I needed to earn a bit of money, but not because I actually wanted to do the job. And if you're not all in on recruitment, then you're not going to—

it's not going to work, is it?

So they didn't see anything positive in me.

So what did you say then? You're like, no, look, I am going to change, this is a job that I want. Like, what was the sell?

I just said, look, I am committed to making this work. I'm not failing again, is kind of what I said. And luckily my boss at the time, he gave me that shot and it worked out.

Love that. So what do you think a career in recruitment's given you that maybe you least expected? Money.

Money, definitely. I've never been, I was never that money-driven at all. When I was younger, I never thought I need to earn loads of dough. So certainly it's given me money. And for me, money's not about buying loads of expensive things, but it's been really, it's allowed me to have options and do things I wanted to do. You know, I'm never going to wear a Rolex or anything like that. I'll wear a fitness tracker probably more likely. But it's given me money. And it also, it taught me, I think it showed me how competitive I really was as well. And how goal-oriented I actually was if I had a goal in front of me. So it's shown me that.

I love that. And I'm assuming as well, coming from that journey, maybe it's also been able to show you what you're capable of.

Yeah.

If you think of when looking back, like, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but now it's like, wow, fucking hell, I've been able to achieve these things. I've progressed my career because it's competitive externally as well as internally.

100%. And it's a shame that everyone falls into recruitment and no one actually grows up wanting to do it because it's amazing.

Yeah.

It changes your life.

Well, hopefully we can change that.

Absolutely, absolutely.

I think it is, it is such a great career choice, and regardless if you stay in it or not, I think the transferable skills, like, are so valuable. If I think of what it helped me, I think it helps so many people with their confidence, just inner confidence, which a lot of people would love to have more of. And then just the transferable skills of being able to build relationships, commercial awareness. I think it can help a lot of people.

Yeah, 100%.

Um, so I guess What I always like to ask then, sort of knowing what we know now, knowing what you know now, what advice would you give Paul sort of starting out in recruitment? A lot of people listen to this that are starting their careers. So what advice would you give younger Paul going into industry?

Yeah, I think assuming you've joined the right business and you're with the right people is just to trust them, that they've been there and done it. And I think it's until you actually hit that next level of success, it's so hard to imagine what it's going to be like. And I probably spent a lot of, you know, had a lot of sleepless nights thinking what I was doing wasn't working and I was just desperate for it to click. And my boss kept reassuring me that if I did the right things, it would work out. And I was, but I think I probably was really hard on myself at that time. And if I had just trusted the process, the process and the people around me who had been successful before me, that it was going to work, I probably would have been happier, I'd say.

I had that. How long did it— how, like, I know we're going back quite a bit here, but like, if you remember, how long did it take for you to then start thinking, no, actually, like, it's starting to happen now? Like, because I think that's good for people to hear how long sometimes it can take.

Yeah, I mean, for me it was probably 18 months.

Really?

I mean, it was 2008, so we had no jobs.

What market were you recruiting in?

It was, well, it was it.

Okay.

You know, it needs, got any it needs, Mr. and Mrs.

Client. It needs.

Yeah. And then, but then we evolved into actually being experts in what we were doing and figured out we needed to find a market. But yeah, it took 18 months or so, so it was a long slog. And I think the challenge now is it's different because now you can get quite quick You get instant gratification because everyone's got so many jobs on. Yeah, you earn money quite quickly, but then the challenge will come when the market changes again.

So if I'm listening to this and I'm struggling right now, hopefully they're not, but I guess what are some of the— because I'm sure you've had this, you've ended up saying the same things to people that you've mentored, been managers of, like, what are the sort of things that people should be looking at to go, no, you know what, like, I did that today, or this week that happened, that should mean hopefully I'm on the right track, you know what I mean? What are some of the key sort of indicators to go, you know what, if I keep doing this and I keep experiencing the— those moments, and hopefully it should start clicking, if that makes sense. You know, it's quite common. So I had this advice where your manager said to you, Paul, keep doing what you're doing and it will pay off. Yeah. So I guess what I'm trying to ask you is, from what you see now, what are those things that people need to keep doing, if you get what I mean? So if I'm listening to this and I'm struggling, what— from your perspective, what are the things that I need to keep doing day in, day out, that hopefully would mean over a period of time it will really start paying off.

Yeah, I think we had a chat about this in Intercourse yesterday. I think it's about short-term, medium-term, and long-term. Okay. So the short-term is the jobs on your table.

Yeah.

And that's what people typically just tend to look at and tend to work.

Yeah.

You've got to start thinking about the medium-term, which is, okay, how do I, those clients I'm working with, how do I get into them more?

Yeah.

How do I expand them? And in long-term, the clients you don't even know yet, what am I doing around that? So am I putting out, Am I creating my brand? Are people recognizing what I'm the best at? Or what I'm saying I'm the best at, at least. Am I creating events? Am I posting things on social media? So I think it's just down to the planning, which is don't just look at what's on your desk right now. Think about what's going to be on your desk in a couple of months' time.

No, I like that because it's so easy to look at just what's in front of you.

Yeah.

Isn't it?

And we were, I think we phrased it as the fight, the battle, and the war.

Fight, battle, and war. I like that.

You need all of them.

I love that. Let's talk a bit about this sort of 11-year journey then, because what I'd really be keen to sort of get your thoughts and experiences on is that sort of Paul the recruiter to then Paul the leader, because a lot of people struggle with that and a lot of people aspire to be a leader. So I guess firstly, what, if you think of where you started, nearly didn't pass your probation, like what, besides work hard, applying yourself, why was Paul then able to get those promotions, which no doubt people sitting next to you were going for as well?

Yeah, I think, I mean, initially it was certainly because I did something different, which was created a brand, which was the first one to do that in, in Spain. Then we tried to roll it out a little bit more after that.

What does that mean, creating a brand?

So building a market, a specific market, rather than being a generalist. Yeah, so it was a content management system called Drupal, written in PHP. So I recognized there was a short— there was a good balance of the shortage of people out there and high demand. Yeah, but enough, if I knew everyone and I knew who the clients were, I could make some money from it. So got to know all the Drupal developers, became the Drupal recruiter, and put myself out out, they were like that. So that was one of the key things, I think. But it was just, it was just all down to numbers. So in terms of getting promoted to a team leader, yeah, recruitment, it doesn't matter if I could make a good leader or not, but you get promoted anyway, don't you? And then you have to learn as you go.

It's interesting, right? So on, because niche is really common now, isn't it? So like, what is, I don't know, I'm always interested to hear people's perspective. Like, what makes a niche a good niche? Or like, what, like some people think, am I too niche? Am I too general? Do you know what I mean? Like, what What are the key sort of principles that you look for to go, you know what, that could be a really good niche and there's enough there, there's enough to sort of make enough money from, or maybe actually, no, it's maybe not big enough. Do you know what I mean? How do you think about that?

Yeah, it's tough. I mean, there probably is a magic number formula. I don't know exactly what it is.

Yeah, fair enough.

You've gotta have the right balance of, there've gotta be enough people, but not too many.

Okay.

If a client could put an advert out and get loads of them through on their advert, then it's the wrong market, 'cause it's too saturated with candidates. So they've gotta be fairly hard to find. but it can't be in such shortage that it's not worth your time at all.

Yeah.

Just getting the balance right between supply and demand.

Okay. So like you said, got there on performance. So what we found particularly at Recruitment Mentor is like you just said, you get there on merit, you get there on performance, and a lot of the time you don't get a whole lot of support on how does Paul become a better leader. Typically you have to be a pretty shit one to become a good one. Yeah. So what were some of those challenges early on, on that leadership journey where you're no longer just focused on your own number, your own performance, you're then responsible for other people's performance. What were some of the early challenges, do you think?

Certainly, I think, you know, we talk about it all the time, that, you know, the billing team leader is the toughest position. Yeah. And it's about, you have to learn to let go of certain things, both in terms of financially, you think, well, I can make money out of this myself, but you're probably better off actually enabling someone in your team to make money off themselves as well. So that's a tough transition. I think it can be, it's difficult to stop. I mean, certainly when I was a leader at the beginning, I was just controlling, you know, I was just like, right, do it this way. This is how you got to do it. Yeah. Allowing anyone any opportunity to innovate themselves or flourish. I just wanted to— I was very directive.

Why was that? Because you, you just knew what worked for you, so you're like, look, I'd rather just, just do what I've done, because it's— you think it's just an easier way to get to success?

Yeah. And I think I didn't know how to manage properly, didn't know how to lead properly. Only my way worked, so that's, that's what I'm going to roll out of everyone, and they're going to have to do it that way.

And that's really common. But like, so I guess someone that might be listening to this right now that might have that approach, what, what would you say to them to think about, to get them to think about maybe, yeah, if it isn't just do this because it worked for me, like, what would be the advice be for those that are going through that transition that may have that leadership mindset?

I think now more than ever, people don't want that approach. I think people will respond, certainly the younger generations coming through, will respond less to that. People wouldn't want the ability to innovate themselves and do things their own way. I think you need to create the boundaries around what should and shouldn't happen, but I think people need to be able to find their own way.

How do you go about finding that, what that way is?

By trying things, testing things, being allowed to fail, you know, trying things out, seeing what works, what doesn't. I mean, obviously we're all, it's all time critical, time critical trying to get deals in.

Yeah.

But they've got to explore and find out the way that works for them.

Yeah, I like that. So yeah, enabling them and making it a safe place to fail and like, but then obviously there's a bit of a balance of like, if they keep doing the same thing and failing, then it's like, what are we going to change here and those things. But Making sure people are aware that they can try things and it's okay to fail.

Exactly.

Love that. What about, what would you say, so we were speaking about the billing leader piece. What would you say a lot of people listen to this will be wanting to be a director one day, may even be spoken to about achieving an MBO and on that journey, what would you say the main difference is when it comes to being a billing manager leader compared to then Paul being a director? What would you say the main difference is?

Yeah, for me, I think when you get to kind of director level, I think what you should be— your focus should be two things: bringing new business in to the company to enable others, and then developing people kind of desk side or collectively. I don't think that kind of level should be focusing on candidates. I also think one of the things, mistakes that leaders make as they go up in recruitment, is they stop doing the new business, you know, they stop trying to win companies, win new logos and win new companies for when your client's in. And I think that's—

Why do you think that's important to keep your hand in that?

You've got to add your value in it. An operational leader, I think, is one who will be— when the tough times come, as we've seen a couple of years ago, the ones who won't survive.

Yeah.

You've got to be able to always say, well, I've brought this in. This is what I'm paying at least for my own salary here, as well as developing these other people. And I think as well, if you stop doing it, how can you inspire others to do it as well?

That's a good point. How did you carve out time to do that then? Because I'm sure a lot of people will think they're time poor as a billing leader, let alone the director and all the the people management you got to get involved in, you've got P&Ls to look at, you've got to manage managers. How do you always carve out time to do that?

I think as you go up, for me, I don't think you should be doing the resourcing side and that could be the most time, time, time extensive thing you could do. So once you take that out, but again, what's the most, you know, it comes down to prioritisation. What's the most important thing? It's developing people and it's winning new business. Of course you've got to spend time doing, you know, strategy and things like that, which you do need to do. And going over spreadsheets and P&Ls and things like that. But you've got to fit them in as being not the most critical things for your job. The most critical things for your job are to lead by example, win your clients, and develop your people.

Managing managers, what's that like? That's a different ball game, right?

Yeah, again, it's difficult. And I think you need to make sure, particularly with managers, you allow them to run teams how they want to run them. Again, if you're directing a manager how to direct his people, I mean, what's the point? You know? And it does happen. So I think you need to be comfortable that, you know, you're almost outsourcing this team and this challenge, this problem to your manager, and you've got to let them take that problem away and do it the way they're going to do it. And you've got to let them fail as well. Got to make them, allow them the time to learn from their mistakes as well.

So obviously it's really interesting that you said around the importance of like, yeah, remaining in the game, business development. So let's just sort of zoom in on that a second. Like a really common, and I'm sure you've seen this, obviously there's definitely like a big shift going on in terms of like, Speak to a lot of recruitment companies now that have delivery functions and that they have a plotted career path where if Paul wants to stay in delivery, just focusing on the candidate side, then he can do that. Whereas typically it was always typically like a 360 where you're doing client and candidate, but a lot of people struggle with that transition where they might start on the candidate side, then they've been expected to bring in their own clients. Like, what do you think are the main principles to doing BD well? In today's market, do you think? Because I think a lot of people right now, from the conversation that we're having, I don't know, like, could be getting complacent right now with sort of how strikingly easy it might be to win jobs. But like, what do you think of the fundamentals and principles behind doing business development really well in today's market?

Yeah, I mean, again, yeah, it's tough for people coming into recruitment right now. They must think this is so easy, this job.

It's a bit of a false economy, isn't it?

It is a false economy, and it will change again. You know, we will come back to the hard times again. We've been talking about this week that there will be a time when the clients don't necessarily want to just be handing us loads of jobs and retainers and all this kind of stuff. So if you haven't come up in that, how do you adapt? It's tougher to adapt, to revert to that, than it is to be— to, to learn that as you, as you're coming up. So I think, I think most importantly is at this time I'd say it's important that you're looking at the companies already in your network. Yeah. Um, you know, maybe already you're doing delivery for and looking at how you can expand them and get them really sticky to them. So when the tough times come, you can reach out to them a bit further on. But again, it goes back to that short-term, medium-term, long-term planning, you know. What are you doing to get your brand out there? And you do need a brand, even if you're just doing delivery, you're probably doing delivery on one particular market, your Java, your.NET, whatever it may be. So it's important you're building that brand out, and that should stick with you when you need to win new business later on as well.

Where do people start if they've recognised 5 of their clients, could be clients that go from spending 100 to 200, 300 grand with them, like where have you typically started? Like obviously, like you said, you've got short-term, medium, long-term. But if I'm listening to this right now and go, you know what, I know this client, there's more that we could be doing with them. And there's 3 or 4 clients that I feel like have more jobs that we could get, but we are not quite getting them yet. Like what are the sort of first steps to getting towards getting those?

Yeah, for me a lot of the time it's clients don't quite understand exactly what else we do.

Yeah.

They only know that, have that one relationship with that one consultant who's delivering one element to them. Yeah. So how do you get in front of the people? So again, it goes back one thing I've done quite successfully successfully, and we do it InterQuest quite well, is we present data to the key people in the businesses. We put together reports every few months around what's going on in the market, the economy, and then we share it with our clients. We say, right, let's get in front of whoever this might be relevant to, to help you with your budgets, your planning. We get in front of them, present the data, they get some value from it. At the end, we say, oh, by the way, we do this. You know, we've actually got an outsourcing model. We've also got a consultancy. We also have a finance division. So how about, is there anything else we could help with? And just by telling them, actually, we do this as well, That can sometimes be enough because they don't know.

I love that. Yeah. So yeah, just leading with, we've done a great job here. Did you know that also we've been helping other companies with this, with that, we've got these functions. And like you said, if you're even then going a step further, going, this is data, this is information that could be useful for you. And by the way, we've got these functions that can support in those areas, can lead to good conversations.

Exactly.

So let's talk about sort of InterQuest then, because what I'd be really interested just to hear is, What's Paul's mindset going— because you went in there as an MD, right? So obviously you was director at Mortimer Spinks before you left. So like, what's the mindset going into a role like that? Because I think typically, like, and I'm assuming here, it would be easier to be a director in a company that you've like worked your way up in and you've sort of gained your stripes. People are like, yeah, Paul is an unreal biller, you've got that credibility, do you know what I mean? So What was the mindset going into a role like that to make sure that you wasn't that MD that came in and just sort of said, right, we're doing it this way, the way you've been doing it is wrong. Do you know what I mean? What was the mindset out of interest?

Yeah, I mean, it was tough 'cause you're kind of institutionalised by a great company in Spinks. Yeah. But you've come up through that and actually the mentality of Spinks was always to bring in people from the ground up.

Yeah.

So everyone's come up with that Spinks way, which was great for me. But at the same time, going into Sprinter Quest, which is a brand new business, people don't know me and you start thinking, how good am I? I don't actually know. I don't really know. I've never been anywhere else. I don't know how good I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think for me, the most important thing was to sit down, meet everybody, listen to everybody, and spend about, you know, 2 or 3 weeks at least just getting to understand the business before I started to come in and give any kind of directive at all. And I realised there were some, there are some fantastic people at InterQuest who had actually come from all different sorts of backgrounds. So I learned, I knew, well, I'm going to learn a lot from these people as well.

Yeah, I love that. How did you deal with, like you said, I think that'd be really common for people listening that might be considering a quite senior move, but like you said, a lot of people have sort of really gained their stripes in one company and like, yes, you can do recruitment, but how different is it going to be in this company? How did you deal with that? Maybe that self-doubt that you might have had?

I was lucky because the MD, sorry, the COO at the time, he'd actually worked with me at Spinks.

Oh, okay.

He was at InterQuest and he kind of brought me in. So I had half a foot in the door and he was like, you're going to be fine here.

Yeah.

So I had that reassurance. But I think it's just about coming in and being humble and about being confident as well. Being humble of what you need to learn and understand you're going to learn from other people as well.

Yeah.

But you know, if you've got, if you've done well in recruitment at one place, you're going to be able to do well somewhere else as well. Yeah. It's all about, you know, it's all about results. If you've got results in one place, there'll be something you can add.

So what were some of the challenges that you're facing in that first year in that role, do you think?

I think we, there was, I think what I had to focus on was helping people be a bit more collaborative. Okay. And there were a couple of brands within the business which I was looking after which didn't necessarily work together.

And it was those opportunities to cross over and help each other.

And even the company, the brands that I looked after, they didn't really interact with each other. Really? So I sort of kind of brought them all together. Now they're actually really together and they're all just kind of one big group. So there was a lot of missed opportunities. And also it was fairly, at that point we was a little bit reactive sitting on some big accounts and it was probably need to be a bit more of a new business acumen, which we worked on and we got them there.

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I mean, first thing is getting them all out together and enjoying themselves together and getting to know each other and actually talking around what they're doing together. I started just little things like making sure everyone had visibility over who was working with who, like sharing on emails all the clients and the roles we had and what was going on. So everyone had visibility on what what's going on, bringing everyone into meetings together. Yeah. But it's really just about getting people to interact more together and just kind of sit down and say—

Did you set any like sort of, not rules, but you know what I mean? Because there's nothing more worse than going, Paul fucking nicked my candidate at that time. I'm not, you know what I mean? Because some of that can go on, can't it? I don't know if even part of that process was like, these are the sort of non-negotiables, or this is how we work collaboratively, or I don't know. Did you have to do any of that?

We certainly sold the benefit of the cross-selling, you know. There's opportunities here with clients we've got in these other brands in the business. We're going to do a 70/30 split. Makes sense. It's a no-brainer. So you're always going to, you should be able to make more money together than separately. So yeah, typically that by selling the benefit of that, that was generally enough.

So how, yeah, because I know people would want to know that. So how did you typically incentivise things then? So it was, you said 70/30 split as in, so the team that have got typically the relationship, but then they've gone, oh, they've said that they need help with this, but we typically don't do that. What they would get 70% and the other team would get 30% or how would it, I know it's nuanced, but the delivery person would get 70% and the person whose client it is, because they've got up, they get 30%. Got you. Nice. Um, I love that. So in terms of when, when did, when did the community piece start then? Like, when did— because I think that's when we first connected. I think it was during, um, I think it was proper during COVID vibes, no? Like, I think, like, I saw you doing things around mental health, you're bringing people together, you're doing webinars. Like, when did the— this word community start showing up more, more often in, in your recruitment world?

Yeah, I think, well, I think when I was a consultant and I built candidate community around Drupal. I was calling that a community manager.

Yeah, yeah.

But certainly with InterQuest, I mean, the first lockdown when all our clients, most of them stopped hiring, we're just like, how do we stay on their radar? How do we give them something whilst they get back up to speed? And before they— so when they do start hiring, they're going to want to work with us. So a lot of our clients are asking, you know, what are businesses doing around this and that? So I said, right, I'm going to set up a webinar series each week and we're going to have an expert in to talk about a certain topic. So the first few ones were How to remote interview, how to remote onboard. All these things were like crazy. I had to do all this all the time. And then it just grew from there. And in the end I was thinking, I said I was going to do it every week and we thought, well, we can go a bit deeper. We can start talking about mental wellbeing, DEI, culture and values, EVP. And we've grown that community, which is called People, Culture and Tech, which is under the InterQuest brand, of course. It's about 1,000 members now on Meetup.

Really?

Yeah.

So you started like a Meetup group and then people sign up there and then they get notified of the events that are going on?

Exactly.

Yeah.

And it's been a webinar series, which then last year we brought it as a podcast as well.

Love that. So let's obviously, with hindsight then, let's just talk, because a lot, I think a lot of people, like a modern-day recruiter, will have this as part of their business plan along with the other sort of channels that they'll be using. So how, and I know you're doing this now with your own business, but like, how would you, like, knowing what you know now, how would you go about starting that journey then? Because it seems like obviously it's quite reactive, but you actually took action. I'm sure a lot of people had the idea of doing what you did but didn't fucking take action on it. So how would you, how would you go back now and like start that over again, you know, now, do you think? What would be the game plan?

Yeah, I mean, well, I've done this with talent and growth for the Nemo Group, really, but I think it's about firstly assessing who's your target audience. So is it, because you're trying to, is it candidates? Is it heads of talent? Like perhaps it might be for myself with the Nemo Group. And I think the best thing to do is get in front of them all and ask them what they would like to see, what would add value to them. So if you have 100 conversations with 100 heads of talent, that's firstly, that's 100 conversations, 100 heads of talent who are then going to hopefully like you and engage with you further. But you get any intel from them as to what they'd like to see. So don't just assume anything. Use the opportunity to get in front of people to discuss something other than recruitment and have not been transactional and actually find out what they want.

I love that. As simple as that. So the key thing for you then is, I'm assuming if you really do the legwork on that, then whatever you decide to do, if it's bringing people together to discuss things or webinars on certain topics, it's just about making sure it's on things that people actually deem to be valuable or useful or would want to attend.

Exactly.

So let's talk about the— because I know we've spoken about this, like, okay, so we've done that, we've really understood what people would really appreciate, like, would see as value. How do we then make sure, like you said, we're not doing it just for community's sake? Like, where can we make sure we're having that commercial awareness to ask when necessary? Like, how do you think about that for people listening? Like, when is the right time to sell? When is it not the right time to sell? How do you think about that?

I think once you've built, I think the challenge sometimes people have is they're scared to make that leap. They think, well, I've built this relationship based on the community or being friends with them now. I'm scared to ask them if I can work with them in this sense. But my answer to that would be, they know what you do. They know what your job is. You're not Martin Dresdner's lamb. You know, they know what your job is. They would probably expect it at some point anyway. And you're asking them because presumably you feel like you're going to do a good job for them because you're good at what you do. So don't be scared to say, listen, you know, we like each other, I'm working with you in this sense, how about we help you on these roles you're looking for?

Yeah, yeah. And that's typically— how's that typically being received? Because obviously people can be worried about it.

Yeah, I think, look, people that I've engaged with, they'll either say yes or no, but it's certainly not, you know, they're not shocked, they're not offended when I ask them, you know, they're probably expecting it at some point because they know I'm a recruitment company.

But is the important part here that like for this community piece to work, you need to lead with giving more rather than taking. Yeah. But at the same time, I think this is what we spoke about, we're like, you've, at the same time, you've got to ask and you've got to have a balance of not just doing it for community's sake.

Yeah, exactly. I think you've got to know, you've got to, when those opportunities come up, you think, actually, there's something there and I reckon I could help this client. You've got to make the leap and just ask.

Yeah.

But if you've given something good to the community first of all, in the, form of podcast, data, information, then, you know, don't feel guilty.

So what would you say, like, going into this year now, what would you say are the, the things that you've really learned? It all seems like a bit of a blur to me, but like, obviously you, when you was an MD and still are at InterQuest, like, throughout the whole COVID period, what are the main things that have stayed with you that you think that you're really taking into this year and will continue to? What are the main things that you learned, do you think, during that period? Because I'm sure it would have been really difficult for you. From in the leadership role?

Let me think.

Nice. Can you just ask a question again? Yeah, no, yeah, of course. So I guess what I'm just curious to think now, because I'm sure it may just be natural to you now, but just curious to understand, like, that whole COVID period when you was an MD, like, what are some of the key things that you learned during that period that have really stuck with you that you're gonna live by every day this year? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I think, um, I think by continuously making sure I'm making an effort to provide our clients and our contacts with information from the BD side, I think, or from the external side, certainly. Um, I think just making sure I'm constantly out there trying to help our clients and our communities working. Um, and we did— I did that more than ever in 2020, and that's something I'll take with me.

I love that. So let's, let's talk about more recent times then. So how, how long have you been into your own business journey then?

So I started officially at the beginning of November. The first couple of months just on branding, started running my own podcast for that, and then went live 1st of January.

1st of Jan. And then what's the sort of niche that you're focusing on?

So really it's an embedded talent model, so working as an extension or as the internal talent teams with businesses when they have specific hiring requirements or volume recruitment. So it's not the traditional recruitment agency. Yeah. And so it's a different sell, you know, it's, it's a selling to— it's, it's, you know, you're asking companies to part with money up front or commit to money up front. It's completely different kind of sales cycle. And also with a brand new client base, because I'm going— yeah, it's completely on my own. And yeah, the clients I had before that with InterQuest, which is cool.

Yeah, yeah. So let's just talk about this for a bit, because I'm sure you've seen that, like, this is more and more common. I feel like talent partners 'Paul working with X company via InterQuest,' or whatever. So what, like you said, it's a different sale. What are the main differences besides money up front? Like, I don't know, because I think a lot of people using this terminology, like solution selling and things like that, like what are some of the things that maybe you've had to like adapt to or get better at or improve on when sort of selling a solution like this?

I think it's about So I think the benefit of it is it's becoming a partner with the client, you know, and I think the old-fashioned speculative CV model, it's a long way away from that. So it's working in partnership with clients, it's about talking about the other things we can add value in terms of their processes, in terms of their structure, in terms of their candidate experience, in terms of their onboarding. So it's going deeper with clients, so it's not just about getting people through the door, it's actually working with them on their brand and how to attract people into the group.

Love that. And then what, like, what's— and I'm sure this is a continued process, but like, what are some of the key things that you look for in companies, or for companies to have, for you to go, you know what, a talent partner model or an embedded solutions model should, from what I can see, should potentially be a good fit? Like, what are the key things you look for? Is it that they're hiring a lot of people? Is it they may only have one person in the people functions? You know what I mean? What are some of the key things that make you go, you know what, that could be a good company that maybe we could really help with this type of solution?

I think the ideal clients, I think, would probably be the ones who are maybe anything between 10 to 30 people.

Yeah.

They've got some funding, they haven't yet brought in a talent team themselves. Yeah. They don't necessarily want to or can afford to pay the high recruitment traditional fees. They don't really know how their process should work internally. So that's ideal for us to go in and work them in that sense. And actually what we can also do then is set them up with a talent team for when we go as well.

So we kind of roll on. So they're trying to future-proof them as well. Exactly. And then how have you— you don't have to go into the exact details, but I know people will be curious. Are you saying, right, you pay this upfront over X period of time, which is the hiring project that we've agreed to? And then I know it's not just about people, but if you— I don't know, have you then got a separate fee attached to like, okay, if we deliver on 5 hires per month, then you pay this extra on top. Like, how have you typically— I know you might still be playing around with this, but like, how have you typically approached like pricing it out of interest?

Yeah, I mean, we try and tailor it around what the client's after, but it could be, um, on a subscription basis. So we'll be working with you, you know, 5 days a week, every day, uh, over this month, and then we charge on a monthly basis.

That looks fine.

There'll be SLAs what do they expect from us during that time, which we can adhere to. It might be more that, listen, all we want you to do is fill these roles. Here's 5 roles, and we'll price up what that would cost for us to fill it. And I suppose we're valuing really in that case the commitment and the partnership more than the percentage. So we can do it a fair bit cheaper, but we know we're going to be the ones who are going to fill those jobs.

So on the SLAs, I think that's again something that people be interested, and I know this will vary, but what have ended up being like And again, this still might be like a learning journey for you, but what are typically the SLAs that you've like led with or have said like, this is what, I know it's nuanced here, but I know people will be interested 'cause that's quite a common question I get. Just like Hishem, I'm selling this sort of mini RPO or we're gonna be an extension of their business. Like what are people typically agreeing to from like a delivery standpoint? 'Cause like you said, it's not just about bums on seats and people. So like what have ended up being the typical SLAs that you've ended up speaking to people about of interest? On the deliverables?

Yeah, I think if you talk CVs sent, it's not enough because of course, how good is that CV going to be? So I think generally you try and base it on, and I've kind of learned this from some of the guys at InterQuest, is that it's how many people have they actually wanted to interview that you've sent them. So if you've got X amount of people through to interview stage that they've been happy with, that's probably enough of an indication that you're on the right lines with things. Yeah, that's usually the SLA we're looking at.

How's it going so far then?

It's going okay. It's going good. I think it's, again, I'm starting from a brand new client base.

Yeah, it's hard, it's difficult.

And I'm selling a bigger sale. So it's been fascinating. It's really, really fun, but it's tough, you know, because I'm building something from nothing with it.

But that's, you know, that's the game. That's what it is. What's been most challenging that maybe you least expected so far?

Working on my own.

Yeah, how's that been?

It's been tough. And actually, so obviously we've been working from home largely even with internet. InterQuest, but a couple of days a week where I'm not with InterQuest, I'm literally just working at home on my own. I've actually, there was a couple of times last week I think, oh, I'm starting to feel a little bit down. So I'm going to get into WeWork myself for a couple of days a week. So I think just that, not even someone to call to talk about what we're like.

Yeah. Daily challenges. Because you've always had that. Because I always had that. And yeah, you have good days and bad days with it. When I went to a coworking space, that massively helped. So you're going to look to do that?

Yeah, definitely. Just a day or so a week. My girlfriend's out of the house. I'm literally in the house on my own. So I'm just like, no, I'm gonna buzz off at all. It's, uh, you don't— I didn't recognize how much I needed that.

Yeah, yeah. And then how, how's it been sort of, um, obviously working with Interquest and then your, your own piece as well? How's that been?

Yeah, it's— I mean, it's been— I just feel really fortunate with it, really.

I really— I think that's— I really respect that because when you told me, I don't, I don't know what— how you feel, but I feel like if you would sit down with one of your mates who works in recruitment down the pub and go, yes, I'm, I'm an MD at Interquest doing Obviously part-time, then I'm also doing my own thing. Yeah, a lot of people go, really?

Yeah, exactly. And it's, uh, it's, yeah, it's really refreshing of our CEO to kind of take that approach again and kind of, you know, say this is the way to go. It's, uh, I love working with InterQuest, I love working with people there, so it's really, really good for me. Um, and really the model I'm selling isn't really in line with any, anything they're doing. And certainly my target audience would be companies smaller than they go after as well. I mean, InterQuest aren't going to be worried about little old me anyway going after my new clients, I think they'll be just fine. So yeah, it's been good. It's been good.

So where would you like to see yourself in, like, if we were to be sitting down this time next year, then, like, where would you like to see the business?

Yeah, I mean, I'd like to say we've got, I'd like to have at least, I don't know, maybe 10 people working with me out at some of our clients. I'd like to have, you know, 4 to 5 solid clients who we're giving regular service to and working on site with. So just, I think the most importantly for me, my goal for the end of this year is to be self-sufficient. Self-sufficient from that business, um, and hoping that's where I'll get.

Yeah, absolutely. And then what, so like, has the main sort of the, the difference— there's a lot of people, I feel like, I don't know how you feel, when they sort of go out and sort of start on their own, they really, they're like, we're doing things differently, these things. Obviously you've got this, this, um, model that you're selling that's different. Is that like the main thing you're really leaning into, say like, this is how we do things differently? And like, as well That's something exciting for maybe new people to join and go, this is actually different the way that we're selling what the solution is. Is that the main thing you're leaning into?

So with the clients, with the—

Well, yeah, just in general, because a lot of people want, when they start a recruitment company, they're like, we're going to do it differently in these things. So is the main thing that you're leaning into is that embedded talent solution, a talent partner, and that's what you're leaning into as a difference?

Yeah, 100%. And I think it's, there's a lot of flaws with the traditional recruitment model as well. I think for one thing, you know, if you work in recruitment, you could do the best job in the world and not get rewarded for it, which can be a shame. So I think I've looked at what I perhaps don't like so much about the recruitment industry, both from the recruiter's side and from the client side, what the clients get as well. And I think this model, which is, you know, I'm not the first one to do this, I'm doing it, I think it looks like a positive way to go.

And do you feel like, and I think you'll continue to find this, but when I've spoken to people that have ended up doing now, what they've really liked is what you sort of said really, where they're able to really influence and get involved with more than just hiring a couple of people. And actually, I don't know, after a project or after working with a company, you can go, you know what, well, their process looked like this before and now it's this. Like, is that something that, I don't know, that you're gonna— you feel like you'll get even more joy out of within the job?

Yeah, and that's the thing really, because I think since I set up the People culture and tech community with InterQuest, I've got really, really kind of fascinated and passionate about company culture, what companies are doing with their people and what things they could do to look after people. So I've gone really all in on that, you know, I'm always reading stuff, I'm always learning about it, I'm always wanting to have conversation to find out what a company's doing differently, and then if I can share that and help another company find its way with that, then that'd be amazing.

Yeah, I love that. So as we come to the end then, obviously you told us about the future and where you'd like to to see. So I'm excited to see from afar. What would be your, I guess, just to hear Paul's take on like part advice for anyone listening to this that really want to achieve their goals this year, like what would be your part advice to those listening that, yeah, really want to have a good year this year?

Yeah, first you work out what your goal is.

Yeah.

You know, again, it's that long-term planning. What do you actually want to achieve? And is that monetary? Is that personal? Is that about your brand? So work out what it is and then break break it down, you know, break it— what do I need to do each month? What I need to do each week? I think as well, just really thinking about what you can do differently. You know, there probably are still in this world more bad recruiters than good ones.

Absolutely.

So how can you stand out? What can you do differently to make you be known as the best person in that field? And take a chance.

Paul, I love it. Thank you so much.

Pleasure.

Thank you very much. Legend. Cheers, mate. Appreciate that. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you got value from the conversation and there was a number of key takeaways. So please don't forget to like, share, and please do share your key takeaways in the comments below if you did have some. And thanks for supporting the show.