Peter Brzezinka - Why data is king, winning retained business, & the importance of metrics in sales

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm very excited to be joined by Pete Brzenka, who is the founder of Org3D, who are a recruitment business that build— help build high-performing sales, marketing, and engineering teams for fast-growth tech companies across the US and Europe. Pete started his recruitment career in 2000 and 11 after being in the fitness industry for several years. And in this time, Pete progressed from being a management consultant and a principal consultant at Finney James for over 7 years, um, before taking the leap to start his own recruitment business, Org3D, in 2018. And here we are, Pete. Thanks for, uh, joining me on the podcast.

And here we are. How you doing?

I'm great. So very quickly, I just have to ask because I forgot to ask this before, but when we say several years in the fitness industry, yeah, so was your actual bodybuilder?

No, I've never, I've never— my profession was a pt. So I used to pt. I transitioned into pt from a kind of typical Globo gym into the, the world of CrossFit. Um, which is a love-hate thing. Some people love it, some people hate it. Um, but I did perform. I was, I was a competitive Olympic weightlifter. It's still part of what I do now, but that wasn't my job, that was just a hobby.

Not bodybuilding.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Completely different ball game. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, it's a non-vanity version. Yeah.

All right, so where, where we always like to start on this podcast is In your opinion, Pete, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

Okay, so look, there's loads of kind of— there's loads of tactical skills for me which we can talk about, but I think from a higher level, the things that we always look for, and if I'm thinking about high performers, it's people who are truly goal-driven. So what I mean by truly goal-driven is talented people know what they want to do and they're not afraid to tell you about it, and to tell you about it with absolute clarity. I think that's key for me. It's not enough to say, "I want to be successful," or, "I want to help people." It has to be a clear goal. So, clear goals, and clear being the operative there is clarity on those goals. So I think it's a really interesting one because a lack of clarity for me, it's kind of like a manifestation of fear almost. And what I mean by that is when a goal becomes really clear, there's a chance that you won't achieve it, right? Because it's clear. So you can, you either miss it or you hit it. So I think people don't get clear on goals through fear, actually. It's easy to say, I want to be, I want to be a better biller, I want to be a better salesperson, but yeah, so clarity, truly goal-driven, and then thirdly, it would be people who can really take ownership and really take responsibility, which is, that's actually something we test for and we measure when we're interviewing. The people who don't play the blame game and actually take responsibility and ownership for their own development, their own learning, whether it's coming to you with ideas, you know, and with that, the thing that underpins everything is an appetite for learning. So if I'm going to summarize those things, it'd be learning, responsibility, clarity, and goal-driven. You know, so there's a load of tactical things as well with the job of recruitment and the different skills you need for different industries, You know, for us, we're in a sales industry, we're selling, check this out, we're selling salespeople to other salespeople, so that's a tough gig. So there has to be a level of assertiveness with that, you know, people who are assertive and people who've got natural curiosity. I think regardless of whether it's you're curious about how a watch works or you're curious about what somebody's thinking, which is kind of more pertinent to recruitment, It's having that natural curiosity to go a layer deeper and to qualify and not be afraid of really getting to the bottom of a problem. You know, once you truly understand something, the more you can understand something, the more comfortable you are with selling that and positioning that to your client, to your candidate. So that all stems from a sense of natural curiosity for me.

Yeah. Some really interesting things there. I'm gonna have to ask how you measure responsibility, but just quickly, because it's on my mind, I love the curiosity part. I think that's actually quite underestimated, sort of how powerful just having that appetite to be curious is and asking questions or being willing to ask questions. And I listened to a podcast with— I need to read the book, to be fair, but it's a very well-read book and recommended— Jim Collins, good Good to Great. I don't know if you've read that or heard of Jim Collins, but yeah, he was on a podcast. And the reason why I'm sharing that is because one of his mentors said to him, the best piece of advice he's ever had was his mentor said to him, the sort of analogy was, at a dinner party, you should be someone who is not trying to be the most interesting, but the most interested. And I love that. And I think that, yeah. So I think, yeah, being willing to be interested. And being, yeah, I just think that's such a great skill to have. And how do you measure responsibility then? How do you do that? I'm interested, I think that's an interesting one.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you can truly measure it. Maybe that's something to work on, something to develop. But, and here comes a big name drop, but we actually use, we use a guy, we use an SPQ profiling scoring, a scoring system which measures people before they come in. One of those things that— there's loads of different things that we measure. We're a real data-driven company, but one of the things that we measure, which for me indirectly is about responsibility, is essentially a score which will assess how likely is that person a finger pointer, how likely are they the person to play the blame game. So the higher score you get on that, the more of a red flag, literally in this case, because it's a red score, the more that's a problem. So if we're trying to develop a culture which is all about a coaching culture, somebody who does take responsibility for things and somebody's going to develop, the moment we see high blamers, that's a bit of a red flag. So that's how we measure it. And that, again, that's called SPQ Gold. That's something we've implemented and put in for pretty much everybody who comes into the business now. And it gives us a kind of a fair assessment of different people's strengths, their weaknesses, and ultimately how well they're gonna do in sales.

Yeah, that's great. I think that's great.

Yeah, yeah.

So we, obviously you've been a recruitment business owner for the last 2, 2 and a bit years. So we're definitely gonna talk about that today, but what I just wanted to find a bit more about, Pete, was early days in recruitment. So how would you describe your first year in recruitment?

Wow. God, first year in recruitment. It's funny because I was, as you know, through this pandemic, and I promised myself I wouldn't say pandemic, but right throughout the last year, I'm pretty sure for most businesses, unless you are in healthcare, maybe in e-commerce, it's been about BD. It's been about bringing on new business, and it's traditionally the thing that is perceived as the harder job, right? But my first year or years, my first 4 years in, 3 years in recruitment were just 180 BD.

So, wow.

Yeah, I remember, you know, so I came in, I didn't know any, I didn't know any different, you know. I came in and I actually came into recruitment to, I came into recruitment to earn loads of money quickly so I could get out of recruitment. And then quickly saw that recruitment was this, you know, life enhancement opportunity disguised as a career. And learnt so many things. I was like, well, no, I'm in this now. So that's one for another day. But I came in and it was just, okay, do this. Pick— it was, it sounds so cliché, pick up the phone, make these calls to these people and get through to enough people, get through to enough people and you'll find some people that are hiring and then you could take some job specs. And that was it. That was my job. And I loved it. And I didn't at first, nobody loves interrupting people for a living. Um, but that became my, my bread and butter, you know.

What made you— what made you— what may— what helped you begin to love it? Because I think that, that— and I'm sure you've seen it now, right? If you— that's where you started your career, that, that's definitely the area that I found most difficult, uh, sort of early on in my recruitment career. And I think that, that shared quite a lot with people, right? So I guess, how did you begin to love it?

Yeah, so it was the— I guess it was two things. It was the competitive nature of not wanting to be beaten. You know, you had these people who— it was a game. It's just a game. You know, there's people on the other end of the phone who either don't want to speak to you or you have to convince them that you've got something compelling or you have an offering that's compelling. So it's like a game. How do I get these people to buy into that? Well, part of it is how well you can articulate that and part of it is, well, if you can articulate it really well, but you only do it 5 times a day, then you're never going to win. So like, I'm a massive formulas guy and it was just, right, well, just do both of those things really well, then I'll succeed. And what really helped was it was just, you know, at the time it was like, right, you just need to do like 80 calls, speak to 16 people a day and just do that and you'll smash it. Obviously it's a little bit more nuanced than that, but I liked having a plan and having a goal and just knowing that if I did that every single day, I'd win.

So I think that's the insight though, right? That you, instead of just going, I don't enjoy BD, you broke it down. Or I'm finding BD challenging, you broke it down and actually worked out, well, actually, this is— if I— you broke it down to numbers rather than 'Oh, this is large, this is a challenge,' you know what I mean? You broke it down to like, 'Right, yeah, then basically this is the equation that should enable me to achieve what I need to.' And yes, you then just focused on the number, like, yeah. So I guess like some of the self-dialogue might have been, 'Right, so I've just spoken to that person, now I've only got 15 more left to do. Maybe I can get another person off,' and then like, do you get what I mean?

So you create that.

Yeah, so that's really interesting.

Yeah, I mean, for me, that has to be that. It has to be. But then I'm— we are so data-driven, you know, everything has to have a metric behind it. That's not to say like we're KPI central, but it's like, well, it has to be measurable, right? If it's not measurable, it's not really a great goal. So that was just that clear. It was really clear. Do that and then you'll be successful rather than just—

what I was— what I'm interested in, I really like asking this question, like, what if you're looking back And I'm sure obviously things change, right? But like, what was your most effective way of hitting that 16 job spec goal, whatever the goal was? But what was your most effective way of being successful in that role and getting job briefs and good ones? Like, what was your most effective way of achieving that?

Most effective way? I guess that's hard to define, but I think the key to it is consistency. You know, it was just like anything, training as well, you know, it's consistency. It's not kind of going, kind of going blast out 7 sessions this week and do 3, 3 double training sessions. It's like, no, you're much better off if you can just do 4 sessions a week every day of your life. So same thing with training, with recruitment, it's just, it's just reps, it's putting in the reps day after day and being consistent and I feel like it's such a high-intensity job. It's such a hard job, especially the BD side of it. You can burn out so easily. You can burn out and just be like, you're just getting spanked over the head with, you know, these ridiculous numbers to try and hit. Or it's like, yeah, come on, let's go do it. And, and it's like high intensity. But then how long is that? You can't do that for 10 hours a day every day. Some people can, but you're going to burn out eventually. So it's like, well, if there was some sensible metric, just doing it consistently. So consistency was the key. But if that's what you mean by how I did it, again, within the BD aspect of it, it wasn't, you know, like anyone after a year, you've built up a client base, you hopefully can rinse as much of that client, for want of a better phrase, all the jobs within, I guess, you know, making sure you're getting all the BD out of one client And then hit and run. So that was how I found my success, by getting the most out of a particular client, which actually led to me then working on a load of weird and wonderful roles that we'd never really touched before, in weird and wonderful locations, and then started up the European division, the international division, and started placing people in different countries, which was like, again, that's second nature to us now, but at the time it was like, whoa, going and placing people in Germany or France. It's like, wow, what are we doing? Weirdly, my first job spec, which just happened upon— I just called a number on a database— it was somebody in Germany, and it was like, well, got this job on in Germany, can we do it? It's like, all right, yeah, we'll have a go. Didn't do it, but it was like, what is this guy doing? I didn't know what I was doing. I had no idea what I was doing.

I definitely want to get onto that because I think a lot of people are interested in the sort of the nuances of recruiting in other markets, right, that you have to adapt to or what's different about it. But just to sort of wrap this up together then, like if I'm listening to this, I'm early on in my recruitment career and that may mean that sort of I spend my first sort of 12, 18 months, first 2 years, part of that during COVID right? And obviously, yeah, the BD element is an important part, right? So like what would your advice be to me then? Because I'm sure you've had to give some of this advice to some of your team. Like what would your advice be to me if I'm struggling at the moment with the business development side? What would you say to me that hopefully would help me get more out of my efforts or just help me push on, do you think?

Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is whenever you speak to— before we come on to that— whenever you speak to any leader who's been through a recession and you talk to them about, well, how did you get through the recession, you see this sort of fondness in their eyes of, oh God, yeah, that recession of 2008 or whatever it was. And so if you start your career in this recession, this hellhole of a market, that's the best thing that can happen to you, because if you can get through that, you can get through anything. You know, how easy is it going to be? And so my advice would be, don't gloat too much about how great that time was when it really is, it's probably the best training you can get. In working through and surviving such a horrible market. So yeah, what would my advice be for somebody who's in that now? Is it— is just that, is consistency, is just keep going through it. You just trust the numbers. We would just put faith in the numbers of you do this enough times and you'll be successful. Where— what is really just self-destruction mode is bad market, no one's picking up the phone anyway, I'm just going to make less calls because no one's going to, you know, respond to my calls. No one's going to give me a job. Yeah, exactly. So just keep up with the metrics, you know, trust the metrics, trust the numbers, know your metrics first, but trust the numbers. That's it. Yeah.

I think that's the advice, isn't it? Because early on you might not know what the equation is. You should have at least an idea of that.

Yeah, and I think that will vary from person to person, but it's funny, isn't it? It's not— since I started in 2011, the metrics really haven't changed much. You know, it really hasn't. You know, I'd get 5 job specs a week by speaking to 16 people a day, by making 80 calls a day. Fast forward 10 years later, it's really no different. So it's going to be different for every market, but And of course, through the pandemic, yeah, you speak to 16 people, you're not going to get a job spec, but, well, we didn't anyway. It was like people were just laughing us off the phone. I remember one of the lads was like 60 DMs in, 60 decision-maker calls in, and then that was the first time he'd got a spec throughout that period. So it took 60 conversations.

Really?

Yeah, but he got there, you know, he got there. And that was just it. It was just focusing on the process, focusing on the metrics, not thinking too much and crapping yourself about, it's another week without a job spec. What am I going to do? Well, just look at your numbers.

I think there's an interesting thing right there about what you're also trying to sort of put a bit of a spotlight on, which typically people don't, is like you're basically putting on a pedestal the process over the outcome. Do you know what I mean?

You should do. Yeah, absolutely, you should do. Yeah.

Yeah, but it's like, but that's what I mean. I think that massively helps early on as well. If I think back, like, some— it's very easy to think that BD session or sort of that whole focus period on business development didn't go well because I didn't get a job spec. But actually what you're saying there is if you know your numbers and you know the process, it's trust the process. And if you know you've done that and it's like, right, I'll look at that in a positive way. Do you get what I mean? And that definitely helps with motivation. So I think That's just, that's, I mean, there's loads of things in life for that, isn't it? It's like about sort of understanding, don't just celebrate the outcome, it's actually the gold is in the process. And then if you get really good at celebrating the process and enjoying that, that will help, that will help you get to the outcome.

Yeah, exactly. And it's that whole thing of how you, how do you incentivize that, right? So as a leader, you know, you've got the commission at the end of the day of, you know, the placement that comes through, but how do you How do you reward and incentivize the behaviors that you're looking for? Well, if you know, if you as the leader trust the process and you can, well, ideally if you can get them to come up with the incentive. So if you can set incentives based around the process rather than based around outcomes, then you'll probably get the process results that you're looking for. And yeah, again, like ideally everyone's different, but we just say, well, what do you want for that? You know, within reason. Don't ask for a Porsche, but I've hit 60 million connects, can I have a Porsche? So let them come up with the outcomes, the incentives that they want. And yeah, those, whatever they want, whether it's time off, more money, you know, just come up with something, get creative. The most creative way you can do that is getting them to come up with the—

Yeah, ask new people.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I have to ask you this. You say you love the numbers, talking about making sure that, yeah, you need to know your numbers. I remember getting this question through my inbox, I think it's such an interesting question, but basically we want to know, in your opinion, what do you think is the most important action, KPI, metric that contributes to recruiter success?

Most important KPI that matters to a recruiter's success?

That contributes to—

Yeah, that would be meaningful conversations. So the number of meaningful conversations.

Yeah, customers, that's customers, so it's clients and candidates.

Well, it's clients and candidates, a bit of a cop-out, right, isn't it? But I think the key there is it's knowing and understanding and really being true to yourself on what's a meaningful conversation.

Yeah, that's what was on your next question.

Yeah. So did you get something out of the call? If it's— and if you're just having conversations for the sake of having conversations, we'll see how that goes. You know, you can speak to 50 people a day, but if you're just talking about the weather or you're not actually getting anything out of it, then it's no good. So yeah, it's the number of quality conversations where you're getting more information than you had when you started. That was always the mantra. It was the mantra that my then boss, now investor in Oak3D, said. Was Mark Nealon, he'd said, just win every call, you know, win every call, get something out of every single conversation, even if that's okay, well, if you're not working with me right now and you haven't got anything now, will you give me a chance in the future? Will you work with me? Whether it's getting a lead, whether it's just getting some little nugget of information that you call them again in 3 months' time, you've got something more valuable. So yeah, that was always the thing for me. Yeah, if I think back, when I think back to the metrics, right, when I started, and even now, the thing that I'm most interested in is that it's those decision maker connects. It's, you know, that was always what drove me. It's like, right, get 16, get 16 every day. So that's the fact that I'm still thinking about that now, I think inherently means that's the, that's for me the most important metric. Yeah.

So on this, I will, we'll go into Pete, the business owner, right? But just something just come up for me, I think that's interesting. I think Pete, recruiters will definitely agree, listen to this, that that makes sense, right? Meaningful conversations and these things, right? And yeah, like you said, you spent a lot of time thinking about it, you're even thinking about it now. So what I wanted to ask you was, I'm sure you've worked with your guys on this and this is something you refined, you're talking a bit about there, just win the call. But like, in your opinion then, like what, why don't I ask you it this way, in your opinion, where do you think recruiters typically go wrong on those connect calls or on those decision-maker connect calls? And because I was thinking about what do you think makes that DM connect call successful, but you said any sort of nugget, but like where do you think recruits typically go wrong?

Um, I think especially when you're under pressure, um, where I see it go wrong most is where you're looking for that short-term win, you're looking for that quick win. So I think recruiters get a bad rep because it's all about them. It's all about them. It's about give me what I want. Give me the information, even if that's really well-qualified information. It's give me stuff, give me a job. What do I need to find for you? Rather than making it conversely, I know we're talking about the process, not the outcome, but rather than making those conversations outcome-focused for the client, So, you know, even when it comes to taking a job spec, it's like, well, what are the outcomes that this person needs to deliver? Not— and focusing more on that, which is helping your customer more. So if you can get them to realise that you're hopefully genuinely interested in their best outcomes and the outcomes that they want rather than what you want, which might not be take a job spec with them today, which might not be get an interview with them right now, So I think the thing is, it's difficult because we're all in, we're in this and we're in perm, right? So it's different from contract, which is very, very fast moving. But yeah, it's that, it's having that balance of we want short-term wins and a lot of people, I don't want to blanket everyone with the same idea, but millennials especially can be quite short-term focused. When you're on that call, getting those short-term and give me something immediately. That's where I see people making the biggest mistake, rather than thinking about the longest, longer game and gathering information which might help them. You don't want to go too far that way, and it's like if there's an opportunity, stay in. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But for new people coming in, it's like, it's the pressure of got this, got this target on my head, or soon to have. I need to get stuff. I'm just going to go and see what can you give me. That's the biggest mistake I see. Yeah, I think—

go on, sorry, go on.

I was just going to say the other thing, and it's a general one, but it is that it's mindset, and it's coming in knowing, you know, most people who get into recruitment are quite competitive, and inevitably you come in and you've got these other people around you who are doing really well, and maybe setting expectations that you of getting too much and achieving too much early on and having that mindset of it's going to be hard and you're going to get a lot of failure at the start. So managing your mindset.

What I was just going to ask was, if I'm thinking, if I'm listening to this, I think that's a really good point. Really, really great point. I guess what I might be thinking now, if I'm listening to this and hearing you say that, is like, well, if I don't take a job spec or if I'm not talking to them about getting them a person that can sort of help their business, like, what value can I give them? Or like, what can I give them? Do you get what I mean? That might be something I'm thinking about. I mean, I've definitely got some ideas around that, but I sort of wanted to see, like, if I'm essentially, okay, Pete, I get that, but like, if I'm not talking to them about a job or whatever, like, what can I actually give them? What would you say to that?

I'd say ask them. Ask them. The most of the answers that we get are from our clients. And are from our candidates. So just asking them, you know, whether it's learning about the information on the market, whether it's learning about an industry, you learn most of your stuff from your clients and your candidates. So who better to ask for, if you're saying, what can I get out of this, or how can I help them? We're just asking them that. Okay, well, if I can't, given that this is what I do, given I speak to these candidates all day long, I speak to these clients all day long, You're not looking now, but how can I help? How else can I add value to you? It's a really simple question, but because that involves you doing something or giving something back rather than taking, it's a bit of a mindset shift. So yeah, ask them, and if you ask that question every single day, you're going to get loads of value and you're going to realize your true value. You're going to realize your true value beyond just giving them candidates. So, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

I'm glad you said that because that's what I had in my head. This is about you, right? But I think that's sometimes what recruiters forget, right? I think it's that understanding. What a great, like, if you're listening to this, this is really practical and really tactical, but what a great question to try and get in, in all of your conversations. What one thing could I do for you today that would really help? Or like, what a great question to ask, like putting it on them and say what could I do that would really help, right? And then that's— and then all of a sudden when you find out that 5 people go, actually, Pete, if you could tell me, if you could find out or know what people are typically paying this type of skill set, that would be really useful for me. Guess what? You're going to be equipped with information that you typically may know that could be really valuable for your next new relationship, right? That's exactly— I think that's such a great thing to remember.

It really is. And again, what's the blocker to those people saying that? Like, this comes— I think it comes with age and it comes with experience. But the main blocker, again, to asking that question is fear. Because especially at the start, you feel like you need to have all the answers. You need to know, you need to know, you need to tell them what they want. You need to be selling to them more. You need to have all the answers. Well, You definitely don't have all the answers. Nobody does. So the thing that stops you asking that question the most is fear that they're going to be thinking, or you feel the need to have the answers already of knowing how you can help them. Because you might have had the odd idiot on the phone before going, well, you tell me how you can help me. You're the expert. But you're not. And the higher up the food chain you go, you ask that question to people higher up, you probably get better answers. As well.

Yeah, I think the key thing to remember here, which I wish I really honed in and remembered when I was in recruitment, was like, and this is what we're talking about really, is like, don't underestimate and forget how many, let's just say customers, right? So let's just say C-level people, right? So directors or whatever, right? So let's just say as a recruiter, don't forget how many different types of directors you speak to compared to how many they would in a week. So a director for a particular firm, in a tech firm, he might have 1 or 2 friends that are also directors or also in a similar position to him. Unless he's really gone out of his way to be part of a networking group or whatever, there's a good chance that he may not speak to people that are going through similar challenges and problems as him. Well, guess what? How many people are you speaking to like that on a weekly basis as a recruiter? Well, look, if you're hitting your metrics and you're having those meaningful conversations, guess what? You're having 10x of those conversations. And that's the value, that's the insight. And yeah, so I think that's— if you really remember that and you actually pull— if you then put that on to someone and go, hey, how can I help you? And then they go, well, this— well, actually, that's a really good point, actually. I speak to about 5 different people like you on a weekly basis. I'll let you know if I find that out. And that's— so it's just remembering that, isn't it? And I think that's just really good to highlight.

Yeah, exactly. And you raise a valid point, depending on how niche you are. Most people are pretty niche, so they're speaking to the same people with the same problems. Now, chances are if you speak to 6, I don't know, let's say 6 CTOs in the finance industry or something and you get their biggest problem, well, that 7th one is probably having the same problem and the 8th, 9th, 100th. So you probably have got a lot of information already if you just piece together those conversations you've already had. So you'll be quite knowledgeable and that you can frame that as to being you can frame yourself as a real expert if you just use that knowledge that you're getting, but you won't get it if you don't ask the questions. So you don't have to ask that every single time. You ask it, say, 7 times and you've probably got a really good grasp. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what gave you the confidence to start your own recruitment business then, Pete? A lot of people don't take that first step. So what, what, what gave you the courage?

Um, I think I felt like, you know, I certainly didn't know it all, but from a tactical point of view, from a recruiting point of view in Perm, I felt it was ready for me. I was ready to take that leap. I guess even my role prior, I've been used to working solo. I've been used to, albeit on a much smaller scale, setting up a pt business. So I'd like— I thought it's funny, actually, I used to, when I started recruitment, I was working with, I was living with a guy who was a solicitor, but, you know, about 3 years in, he said, do you think you could do this by yourself? I was like, well, probably, but I don't quite feel ready yet. And he's like, well, what's stopping you? And I was like, well, it was just, again, it was just fear that was stopping me. I knew that 7 years in, I felt I'd learned all I could really learn, and if I wanted to go and develop myself further and advance myself further. That was the only step for me that I could really do. It wouldn't have made sense to go and move to another firm. It wouldn't have made sense to go and become a director somewhere else. It was just, if I was going to do it, may as well do it properly and start something up. And yeah, it was scary. It was bloody scary. And there's a lot of financial risk and you have to back yourself in those first 3, 4 months to bring in revenue. And keep the lights on. And that's all you can really do in those first few months. But yeah, cliché, best thing I ever did. What was the plan?

What was the plan? Did you have a plan? What was the plan?

I had no plan. I had no plan. I couldn't, you know, I couldn't do anything with my existing clients. I had to go and start from scratch and hustle. But again, because I had been grounded in that and that's how I started out and it was just go and find clients, go and find clients on day one. As in, in 2011, it was like that again. It was like, okay, up for the challenge, here we go. And yeah, never looked back. And then shortly after that, started hiring people. So as soon as I knew I had enough revenue to keep the lights on—

How long did it take you to do your first deal?

My first deal was a retainer. So about a week. Really? That's like the first deal. Yeah. And then the first, funnily enough, like the weird thing is—

Had you sold retainers before?

Yeah, yeah. So I knew that was just like logical in that that's the quickest way to actually get literally money in to keep the lights on. But my first deal, weirdly enough, was— it's ironic given that now we are a business that helps fast-growth tech businesses, i.e., the smaller businesses. What bigger organisation out there is it than Salesforce? Right. So my first deal, my first deal that was actually a candidate place was at Salesforce. Which is crazy to think of it. There was a backdoor in there in that there was a subsidiary who got acquired by Salesforce, but I knew the guy there, I knew the recruiter there, and so yeah, that was my first win in Sweden of all places. And actually, that came, the candidate that I placed there came from a video response. This is before, this is only 2 years ago, but it was before video really kicked off. Like in a big way. And yeah, I'd WhatsApp this candidate, I'd rang him, he hadn't responded, so I sent him a video WhatsApp with his name on the background and he's like, okay, fine, we'll have a conversation. And then fast forward in the year he started, so that was cool. I'll never forget that. I should probably get it framed. Really cheesy. In fact, one of the guys that's just started with us has said, can I get my first deal framed? No one's ever asked that before, but yeah, if you want, you have the invoice for me.

A lot of people, I feel like, wouldn't have had the sort of guts to make their first client pay some of the fee up front. Like, where— why did you have those? Why was you able to do that? Why did you believe— do you know what I mean? I'm just interested in that.

Yeah, through necessity, Hishem. Through necessity. I needed to make this a success. I needed to keep the lights on. I needed to get revenue in quickly. We're in a market where you're from taking a job spec to closing a deal takes, what can take, it depends on where you are. If you're in Europe, bloody hell, it can take 5 months with notice periods, but it takes a long time. It's quite lumpy, you know, quite high-end sales. It's quite, you know, long, big old values, but takes a while. So How did I do it? I just asked, again, I just asked the question. You don't ask, you don't get. And yeah, they completely understood and they knew that because I was just really open with them. You know, you could go in there and start pretending that you've got this fully fledged organization with like 10 people behind you, but people see right through that. And so they got it, but they also knew that because if I retained them or if they retained me, that they would get my undivided attention and that's what they got and that's why we were able to work so well together. So I just think, again, retainers, another really interesting point, I'll name drop again Louise Archer who helped us a lot recently. I think she's been on one of your podcasts actually.

Yeah, she was one of them. Well, I worked with her quite early on, on the personal branding stuff because she never used to do anything online, which I just thought was ludicrous because she can help a lot of recruiters.

Yeah, well, she was great. She came in recently and she was helping us with selling retainers. But again, like selling retainers, it's just mindset. It's this thing of when you've been so used to working contingently, you're not— we're almost not worthy of it. But how— somebody said, how do you sell retainers? Well, it's just ask for them. I know there's all this great training and it's all— it really is good training, but it's like, well, just ask. And you, you just never— you never know. If you ask 10 people you probably get a retainer. But how many people have actually asked for a retainer?

It's that. Every time this has been spoken about, it's that. It is, it's the ask. So what, so you had to get money. So did you not, did you just sort of not do it in a, like, did you not give yourself any sort of runway? Like, did you have like 3 months where you knew that if like you was okay if you didn't make any money? Like, do you not have a bit of a runway when you started the business?

Yeah, so I, It's okay. What's that? Can you just repeat the question? Because my— something just interrupted my, um, my audio there.

No, have you— have they run out of battery?

No, no, somebody called me and it connected to my, uh—

if you connect it, if you connect it back to your AirPods, because I think it's disconnected. No worries. What's that? Say that again.

How's that?

Yeah, that's fine.

Yeah, we're fine. Cool. Yeah, I can hear that.

That's fine. So, um, what I was gonna say, did you not give yourself a sort of financial runway? Did you have one?

So shortly after I, um, decided I was going to set up, um, I was approached by, um, the guy I used to work with, Mark Needland. And, um, when he found out that I was going to set up, um, and I had this, this wonderful plan which was you know, if I can just get to 10 people, if I can get to 10 people in 2 years and that'll be me, that'll be great. And you said before 10x, he's a big Grant Cardone fan, but, you know, he would say, well, if you can get to 10, why can't you get to 100? I'll help you get there. And so he came in and put some financial backing down, which enabled us to go and, I say us, me at the time going higher more aggressively than I perhaps would have done had I not had that. And if it was just me thinking, okay, well, I can just make enough money for myself, and if I can match my previous salary and yada yada. So he was really helpful in that runway, and it just became a case of, right, we'll pay him back. You know, that was almost more for me, because obviously I've worked with him previously, for me that was more important. It's like, okay, well, if I can get him back what he's given, um, and then start growing this thing, um, that will mean more to me than just, you know, getting some deals in and having an okay life.

So, so yeah, besides that, I'm just interested because a lot, a lot of recruiters will end up starting a recruitment business on their own like you did, right? So just quickly on that, obviously, obviously he had a vested interest, right? But obviously part of that is then helping, advising, trodden on the path that you were going on. So like, what would you say were the sort of one or two things that sort of massively helped you early on that you probably wouldn't have got obviously if it was just by yourself, right? So like, I don't know, was there sort of one or two things that really jumped out that sort of he had a real big impact on, out of interest?

Yeah, mindset and confidence. So building confidence, building confidence. Now, I wouldn't say I'm not a confident person, but when you are, you're going to start your own business. That's a big leap in itself. So then you imagine you're there on your own, this brand new company that you've got this great idea for. And then somebody comes along and goes, yeah, well, make it a 100-person company. You're like, you laugh at them. And that's, you know, doing that on your own is impossible. It's not impossible, but I'd have a few more gray hairs, I reckon, if I was doing that on my own, both from a point of view of him being there to help support it and to mentor me and coach me. But also, I couldn't do that alone without Adam, you know. So shortly afterwards, Adam came on board, right-hand man. And again, in all transparency, For anyone signing up, the thing then for me was like, okay, well, I'm about to basically give away nearly half my company. And you have to have a real level head on you to actually see the long-term benefits of that. And of course now, complete no-brainer, I wouldn't have it any other way. And so, you know, you have to, you have to do this with somebody else for so many reasons. But there's just so much to do. Only recently, we were just redividing and redivvying up what we're responsible for as business leaders. You can't— I just don't— I think eventually people do that if they're going to go and run the race and build a really successful company. But you can't do it all by yourself. So it was really wise, and it was a wise move to do it early on rather than get to where we are now, 14, 15 people, and then go, OK—

You might be a bit more bitter about it, a bit more difficult.

Well, more bitter, but also it's just more difficult to then start, um, giving people more responsibilities. It's hot. You may as well— if you're going to do that anyway, you may as well do that at the start. You know, if you're going to divide and conquer, you may as well do that near the start, in my opinion.

What, what's happened so far since you becoming a sort of recruitment business owner that you've— that you least expected?

Apart from the gray hairs. Yeah, I don't know if you can see them, but there's a few. So what's happened that have been most—

What's happened since you've started this business that you've, yeah, least that you least expected?

Well, I didn't expect there to be a whole international lockdown. That's by the by, that would have happened anyway. But again, I'm really grateful for that now because as cliché as that sounds, that strengthened us as a business so much more. And because we're so agile, just in the fact that, you know, we were a 2-year-old business at the time, we could pivot really quickly, we could make quick decisions, we could, you know, we could just do everything quicker where these absolute juggernauts of businesses that are maybe 100 people at that point, I really feel for them, and I'm sure you know, the successful businesses have got through that, but it would have been a lot more difficult had we not been. So although it's harsh getting hit with something like that so early on in your career, that's been the making of us. So I didn't expect— didn't expect that.

I was just going to say, describe your business like before COVID hit, and then let's just talk as we sort of come to the end here, like just talk a bit about some of the learning challenges that you've like you just said, it sort of made your business. So we'll talk about that, but just describe your business as you went into COVID. So like, how many people did you have? What did you do turnover-wise first year? And then I think that would be good context for people.

Yeah. So first year, well, first year was like, was a part year, but first year was like 9 months. So the first 9 months was like 320. Yeah. Second full, the full year followed was 742. And then this year just gone was 9, 10. Yeah.

And what, uh, how many people, how many of you were there when you sort of went into, like, as we were like finding out COVID was a thing? So sort of March last year, where was you as a business?

Yeah, yeah. So we were, we were about 15 people then, um, we're at 14 now. That's, you know, so there's been some churn, um, and what, what we were like as a business to what we were now I would say we were much more laissez-faire, very kind of, we just did okay. We just did okay because the market was so good. What I realized was that we definitely weren't reaching our full potential. We were just meeting the, we were coasting. We were just coasting. So what COVID was great for was shaping up and tightening our sales process to the nth degree, both from a standards point of view, but also from a process point of view. So yeah, getting our sales process refined, we had a lot of help on that. I could just name-drop loads of people, but yeah, we had a lot of help. We invested in developing people, whether that was through Scott Ransom on some video work, whether that was you with launching our podcast, whether that was Trevor Pinder on some sales training. You know, we had Louise Archer come and help with some training. So we had a lot of help and a lot of development of people, but then we also invested in our systems. You know, we invested in our— we got a new CRM, we made sure we had really good metric tracking software put in. And so, you know, we doubled down on investing in the people and investing in our processes. And so now we're a much tighter business on sales, on sales process, really.

That's really interesting. And how have you approached this? How have you approached keeping your people? Not just in terms of like financially and stuff like that, but I'm sure that must have been like some— sure, some of your team might find it difficult on these things because I think that's what a lot of people are interested in, I hear about, if me and you are talking about sort of me working for your company, I'm gonna, yeah, Pete, so how did you deal with COVID Like, what went on?

What did you do?

Like, so like, how, how was you thinking from a leader point of view? Because that's when you're really like, wow, okay, I'm responsible for these people. Like, it's— so how did you approach that? How was you thinking about that?

So, well, by investing in them and giving them all the training that we could to make sure they were successful. Because the last thing you want to do is somebody be failing and then it's on you. And the reason it's on you is because you haven't trained them properly. So it was like, right, let's just take that out of the equation. Let's make sure that you've got all the training you need, all the tools you need. Now it's on you. It's not like, okay, over to you.

Yeah, I know what you mean. But you've done your absolute utmost to create a platform that they can grow on rather than Yeah, exactly.

So that was, that was the first part. Um, from an actual, from a tactical point of view and, and where and how they worked, it was, you know, the option of people. If people wanted to work from home, they could. If people wanted to come into the office, you know, in between that weird phase of absolute lockdown, and then if you felt you could go into the— if you felt you needed to go into the office, then do. Um, so it was like, okay, you can work from home if you feel you can, you're working from the office if you feel you want to. So giving that element of flex there and just trying to, I guess, just trying to support people who were, as we are now, all working from home and keeping really tight on regular comms. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question on how we have—

No, no, that does. I think, yeah, because a lot of people interested in like growth, getting new people and all these things. But I think what's a really interesting point and topic is like, what do you do? What have you got in place to keep your people, your best people from leaving, right? And you're talking about actually investing in your people's learning and development, investing in the tools, making sure that they sort of got the best tools they can and these things, right?

Yeah. So the other thing as well, Hishem, is having really— the other thing we tightened up on as well, our sales process was Yeah, we had a career development plan and that was fine, but we tightened up and doubled down on that and just, you know, we've now got people coming into the business as brand new people who have the opportunity within a year to become a leader. So giving people a way to progress, those who are truly, who truly want it, it's like giving them a pathway to get there. So making that really clear, again, the clarity on that was really important for us. And so I guess that's kind of a way of, you know, the way of keeping them. It's like, who is it who said, I think it was Russell Clements, said that the recruitment is really simple. Find great people and find a way to keep them. That's it.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's definitely not as easy as that. But what I was going to say, a lot of people interested in this. So I guess, like, you spoke a bit about this at the beginning, but sort of going through that whole journey then, like the type of people that you now want to grow your company with, like, has that changed what you sort of— has it changed what you now look for themselves? So you spent— you spoke about responsibility and these types of things, but I guess a lot of people interested in— obviously it's just the most ironic thing ever, right? You're a recruitment business, you help fast-growing tech firms find people, and you find it difficult to find people for your own business, right?

So a couple issues.

Yeah. So like, what So obviously a lot of people, it's like, yeah, hardworking, all these things, but like putting all just the sort of cliché things aside, like what, and it seems like you're about the data and all these things, but what is it that you're actually interested in looking for when now hiring for your business and hopefully achieving your dreams of scaling this to a 50, 100+ person company? What is it you're actually looking for?

People who've got an appetite for learning, people who are truly goal-driven, think and articulate those goals with absolute clarity. That's it. I mean, again, there's loads of nuances behind that, but that's it, you know, truly goal-driven. People who are goal-driven, again, we measure for that. But if you ain't goal-driven, you don't really know what you want. That's not to say that you need to know exactly where you're going to be in 10 years' time. Yeah, you need to have some goals. Otherwise, it's dead boring. It's just a really boring life without goals.

Just on this, I think that's really interesting. I love how clear that is to you. I was having a conversation with a recruit the other day who's a high-performing recruiter, has built really well, earned good money, and we're just talking how he actually lacks motivation because he's achieved a lot of his goals. Is a lot of this is like, this is quite material, but like he's got the car that he wants, he's got this what you want, blah blah blah, right? Just, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Like, if you've got someone in your team that they're just smashing it and they're doing really well, and there might be people listening here, they sort of, they've achieved their goals, like how do you then reignite that spark? Or like, how do you then become motivated if you sort of feel like you've not achieved everything, but you get what I mean? You've achieved most of the things that you've set out to. How do you then— I don't know, I think that's interesting.

Yeah, it is. It's— well, it's like if you've got all those extrinsic— you've got all those extrinsic— I can't get the words out— motivators ticked off— got the car, got the house, everything else— it's like, it's— it— like, a lot of people don't really focus on their goals and set goals and, um, look beyond those materialistic things and Perhaps it's, if you're in that situation, it's sitting down and really just reassessing what you want out of life, you know, what drives you, what are your goals beyond the car and the house and, you know, you can get all that for being a really good recruiter and if that's all you're driven by but then you're still looking for something, you're still looking for something what you're looking for is, you know, it's not out there. It's a bit deep, but it's, you know, you do probably like that, look, you know, you look at yourself a little bit more and probably think, well, actually, what do I want out of life? Because I've got the car, uh, and whatever else.

It's difficult to do that, but I feel like especially during COVID it would have shone a light on those things, right? I feel like it would have I don't know if you've had these conversations, but it definitely would have sort of just put things into perspective and really challenged why you're doing what you're doing. And I think that's sort of why, and your purpose and what you're driven by in recruitment is so important. You need to be curious about that, at least if you're on the path to, you've got goals that do excite you, if that's buying your first property and these things, that's great. But as it, like, I've had a lot of these conversations where when you do get those things in, it's like, okay, what next? 'What the hell? I've got all these things around me and I'm still— I don't still feel fulfilled, or I still need something to be motivated, but I'm not feeling motivated. How does— how do I feel like this?' So it's— I love what you're talking about. Yes, the intrinsic— it's asking the hard questions. Why do I do what I do in these things? And I don't know, I think it's important to talk about those things.

Yeah, it is, it is. I think that the— and the other— the difficulty is that recruitment is a— as a business, as a— as an industry It is obviously very money-driven, money-motivated, and so come with that, it's easy to just attach goals and motivators which are materialistic. And again, the thing that persuaded me to stay in recruitment actually was that it was a learning opportunity and a life development opportunity disguised as a career, and it wasn't just a way to make great money, but it would just learn so much. So, yeah, it's different for everybody, but you definitely— I don't think you can get— you can't get the happiness out of the job just by making more money. You can for a certain amount of time, but there has to be something else, whether it's helping people, developing people, mentoring people. There has to be something.

Before I ask you these last 5 questions then, Do you think the best recruiters you've worked with, or the best recruiters you have in your business, the high-performing recruiters, do you truly believe that their main driver and motivation is money?

In my business or in general?

Just what you think, what you believe. You've met a lot of recruiters and—

Yeah, I think undoubtedly some of the best recruiters out there are very money-motivated people. I don't think it's the only thing. I think the thing that separates the really good recruiters from the very best recruiters who are going to go and do something are the ones that have a real interest in developing others in some, whatever, in whatever way that manifests. But true leadership is having a genuine interest in developing other people.

Yeah, I just find that interesting. Yeah, 5 questions.

It's getting deep, it's getting deep.

Yeah, I'm all about that. That's who I am. So, so 5 questions I've got for you and we'll finish this. So first one, yeah, if you could change the industry, what would you improve?

Um, in some way, and I don't know how, but I would— the barriers to entry for recruitment are so low, which It's a catch-22 because that's such a good thing, and many, many great successful recruitment companies wouldn't exist had it not been for that. However, with that comes the bad, and the reputation and the industry as a whole just gets bastardized. If I could change one thing, I'd have some sort of standardized way of entry and make that barrier to entry a little bit higher. Yeah, that's it. It's quite vague, isn't it? I don't know how you do that. I don't know how you do that.

Yeah, there's a business idea there for sure, because it's definitely the most common. It's the most common. Yeah, a lot of people say that. But like you said, there's pros and cons, right? So, second question. So this can be a podcast, an audiobook, a book, but like, what book have you read that has had the biggest impact on you?

Um, definitely, uh, The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. I've listened to that about 6 times.

And what, you listen to it? Yeah, yeah, I definitely couldn't listen to his voice.

Yeah, I go to sleep. So you have listened to it?

Yeah, I've seen them on like YouTube, like, yeah, but I've, yeah, no, I love that book. It's definitely nice.

Yeah, check it, check it out, everybody. So that, I mean, you can summarize that in one, one sentence, but yeah, I keep having to go back and re-reminding myself of it. And that's to, you know, some people live in the past a lot, some people live in the future a lot mentally. I think that's me. I'm, I never worry about the past, but I always think about what could happen in the future, both good and bad. Um, and that book is just a real good grounder to just be thinking You know, there's one thing he says, it's like, all that matters is literally what's happening right now. Not in 15 minutes, not in 20 minutes, not in tomorrow. What's happening right now? Unless a bullet's coming to your head in the next 5 seconds, what are you actually worried about? Yeah, it's 99% of the things we worry about never end up happening.

Yeah, and it sounds, it sounds really simple, but like, when you really— I want to really like just you really get that in your body and like you really sort of take, embrace that, and it's like nothing matters besides this exact moment right now. It's freeing, it's completely, completely freeing. Um, love that. So next question, so if you could write a LinkedIn post that could be seen by every single recruitment consultant across the world, they'd read it, what would you want it to say?

I'd want it to say, ask why.

Love that. Ask why.

Yeah. So that would be it. It's like, again, most of the problems that you've got in life and in the job, I truly believe, are because of lack of clarity. And it's the fear of not— fear of not wanting to— fear of wanting to be seen as already having all the answers, or just taking what you're given, but going that layer deeper and asking why. So truly understanding any problem you've got, ask why.

Next question. Yeah, what did you spend Your first biggest commission paycheck on?

I'm laughing because I can remember what it was, and it was, um, it was a set of new alloy wheels for my Audi A3. Oh wow, I love that.

Yeah, nice bad boy alloy, love that.

Yeah, and then, and then the second one was on a new bathroom. There you go, chalk and cheese, eh?

Right, last and final question. What is the ultimate goal for your recruitment career?

To help, truly help fast growth tech businesses reach their full potential.

Love that. Pete, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you so much. It's been brilliant. Really enjoyed it. And you've helped me hit my water goal for the day as well.