Phoebe Stowe-Forbes - Why personal branding & building your finances is key as an entrepreneur

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and on this week's episode, I was joined by Phoebe Stalfourps, who is the founder of an accountancy and finance recruitment business based in Lancashire called Dot Recruit. In this episode, we really sort of dug deep into what that business journey has been like over the last 3 years, where She started the business just before COVID so she had to navigate that, and how she'd been on a journey on uncovering what type of business it is that she wants to build, how she's been able to really double down on service, and how they've become the number one accountancy finance recruiter in the local area, and so much more. I love Phoebe's passion, her energy, and I'm really excited to see where she takes her recruitment business over the coming years. Enjoy.

Phoebe, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, so exciting.

Yeah, no, thank you so much for, uh, making the trip.

Yeah, no worries.

Haven't had too many Northerners yet on, on the pod in here.

So any female Northerners yet? Yeah, yeah, you had Amy actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, um, look, where we always like to start, um, is sort of just to, to get your thoughts on like what you believe, uh, are the characteristics, traits that you find are common in sort of modern-day recruiters, high performers? Like, what is it that you think make up today's sort of highest-performing recruiters, do you think?

You know, I feel as though this is something that I've put a lot of thought into as I'm recruiting for my team, and I don't know if there's any, like, one magic formula. People might disagree, but I think the one thing I've noticed time and time again that seems to translate to a really good recruiter is, you know, when you get someone that is driven by more than just billings, you know, they're kind of like they've got that higher purpose. They want to achieve something. They want to be the best. They want it, if you know what I mean. They want it enough. And I don't know whether, like, I think of all the highest billers that I've ever worked with, they were driven by something. And whether they tapped into what that was, I think it helps to know. And but whether they tapped into it or not, it was what got them picking up the phone every day. It's what got them in early, got them staying late. And I know, like, in myself, when I've had periods of time where I've got other things going on, usually that I've needed a bit more money for, like I'm buying a house or doing it up or whatever, that's always helped me just get my head down and just crack on like I really wanted it in that moment.

Yeah, I like that. And have you, have you sort of figured out how you uncover that? And then into the environment?

Yeah, because I think it's always changing, like, depending on what you've got going on in your life. Usually if you've got like a big milestone that you're working towards you might be a little bit more motivated when you've got something in particular you're working towards, but sometimes you haven't got anything in particular that you're working towards. And what I'm trying to figure out is how, you know, where is there that consistency? You know, these people that really get their head down regardless of what they've got going on and they're just consistent day in, day out. And I think that's what contributes overall. It's those baby steps every single day, isn't it? And then you look at the year and you've absolutely smashed it. So, I do think a lot of it does come down to drive and motivation and work ethic and wanting it, really.

So obviously I was saying earlier, obviously these conversations can go really quick, so I'm really keen to really, yeah, get into the detail of the last 3 years. Obviously for the last 3 years you've been building your own recruitment business, Dole Recruit, but I guess let's just, yeah, spend, um, a couple of moments just talking a bit before that. Obviously before you started your own business How many years was it that you worked at another agency?

7 and a half, I think.

For one agency?

For one agency, yeah.

Climbed the ranks.

Yeah, a lot changed over that time actually. So I got to see— I want to say I got to see a few different businesses, even though it was just one, because when I started it was quite a very small niche boutique agency, and then they became part of a PLC, part of a wider group, and the dynamic of the business changed over time. So I was quite lucky to see that.

You got exposed to different things. Yeah. So I guess what I always like to hear from people, and I know other people like to hear it as well. Like, how— who was Phoebe before recruitment?

So I got into recruitment when I was 19, so if I cast my mind back to who I was maybe when I was at school, I wasn't really sort of exceptional at anything. I was pretty average at everything, do you know what I mean? So like sports, academically, I was just bang on average. I didn't really have— I hadn't really found my thing. So when I got into recruitment at 19, I fell into it really because I didn't want to go to uni, and there was a lot of pressure to go to uni from grandparents and things, and I thought, I can't do it, I don't know what I want to do. So I got into recruitment and kind of finally realised that that's my thing, like, I can control how good I am at this, and you don't, you don't really have to be particularly talented. There's certain personality traits that help, obviously, but I think that was the first time in my life that I was like, wow, I'm actually really good at this and I can be really good at this and it's all within my control. It's not purely based on talent.

It's such a moment that a lot of people can go out their entire life looking for that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because I, for me, I, yeah, I had no idea and then I found myself in a sales role and then I was like, oh my God, like, yeah, like you just said, yeah, I can get paid for the hard work that I put in and I control that.

Yeah.

So it's interesting you say that Just quickly, because I think this will be helpful for people. A lot of people listen to this podcast who are young, maybe graduated from uni, maybe considering going. Advice for people that are having to deal with their parents' pressure of like, Phoebe, go to uni, it's going to make us look good. We want to be able to tell people that our child's going to Oxford. Like, that's a real thing that a lot of people have to sort of deal with and navigate with.

Yeah.

How did you, how did you deal with that? And advice for others?

Oh, do you know, it was so tough because A little bit of background to it. My granddad was pretty much like rags to riches story. Like, he was an orphan, grew up in an orphanage, and worked from the age of 7 on Preston fish market and grafted so that he could provide for his family. So I was very fortunate that he picked out a really good school for me and my sister and, and for 2 of my cousins. And so the pressure was on to make something of yourself because he'd sacrificed so much to get us in that position. And it was really them that out of the 4 of us, myself and my cousins, it kind of became apparent that if anyone's gonna go to uni, it's gonna be me. So I was a bit like, oh shit, how do I say, or how do I prove that not going is gonna be the right thing? So that's probably what drove me in the early days. But I think all I can say to anybody in that position is I personally don't regret not going to uni actually. I think it was the best thing I could have done. I look at when I'm paying my team and I'm looking at the student loan on the payslips and I'm like, oh gosh, I'm so glad I don't have to pay that back. But yeah, I think if you know what you want to do, absolutely stick by it and hopefully your parents will trust that you'll have it all figured out.

How have family relationships been? Like, sometimes they can be damaged, right?

Yeah, I mean, they're very proud of where I am now and my granddad You know, he was in sales his entire life. You have to be when you've got your own businesses. And, you know, he's proud, especially now, now that he's seen that I've, you know, it's been 10 years later now that I'm actually 3 years into my business, and I can tell. But I mean, he's the sort that always wants to push you, so he doesn't want to give you too much credit for it. So, um, but no, it paid off. And I think anybody that I speak to in the same situation has said the same, like they didn't go And if anything, that gave them something to prove, and that's what was the driving force behind them doing really well.

Thanks for sharing that. So let's talk about these 3 years then, right? So Dot Recruit is your own recruitment business. Yeah, I guess let's just start with what was it that you believed you could and wanted to do differently from obviously those— that amount of time that is with the other business. Yeah, a lot of people when they think about going out on their own, sometimes a big driver besides, yeah, being their own boss, wanting to make money for themselves rather than the company, yeah, is like, I really believe that I can do this better. I really believe I can, yeah, do things differently. What was that for you?

So it was never really about the money. Um, I think it was a— for me, it was more about as the business that I worked for grew I started to see that there was more of an emphasis on quantity over quality, and it was all about the money for the business. And I'd spent a long time building my relationships, and I didn't— the more I climbed the ladder, the more I realized it was really tough to meet these really, really high targets and preserve these relationships that I'd spent such a long time building. And I wasn't prepared for anything to sacrifice those relationships because that was what was most important to me. So I think the vision with Dot Recruit, I never planned to grow the business actually, I was leaving to be a bit of a one-woman band, a bit of a freelancer, just working with the clients I already had, and I think it's really just, it was all about the relationships and being that trusted go-to person, and as you know, I work a really niche market, really small local market, So it was all about the reputation and providing a great service, really, for me.

And like, what, what, from your perspective, how was it that you was going to deliver on that? Was it just like doing the right thing? Yeah, like actually getting back, like, you know what I mean? What were some of the core things that you think, if I do this all the time, or I commit to this, or I definitely do this in my business, then I'll achieve that? Because I think a lot of people say that, but like, what, what does that actually mean? It's different to people.

I think anyone that knows me is sick of hearing me say do the right thing, because that's actually one of our values. And we didn't realise that until kind of coming up to the end of year 2. I've never been a lover of company values, I've always thought they were just a bit, just pick 3 buzzwords and we'll say they're our values, but I kind of realised that we had, the team had something in common and we all absolutely live and breathe the same kind of mindset around our clients, and one of them is just do the right thing by people. And I'm a big believer that everything else just falls into place and follows. If you just focus on— I mean, spend your time wisely, obviously, but do the right thing, and ultimately everything else pays off.

I love that. So as well, I think recruitment is very competitive. I think just for context, when you're saying there that you work in a local niche market, so like for you that's accountancy and finance? Yeah, in Lancashire.

In Lancashire, yeah, that's tiny.

That's the focus, right?

Yeah.

So talk to me about, uh, I'm still, I'm assuming here that it's, that market is still competitive.

Yeah, it is.

So like, how, how did you go about thinking? I think you've done a really good job on, on the branding front.

Thank you.

But like, I think that's another sort of key bit that a lot of people are concerned about when going out on their own, is like, how am I gonna, how am I gonna stand out? There's so many different recruitment companies and be so competitive. Like, how did you think about what was the plan or strategy around how am I going to make DotRecruit also look and feel different and actually has a USP in the market, which is for most people very competitive?

Yeah, so I think everything came down to just posting regularly on LinkedIn and just being authentic. And, and just, I think me and you had a chat once and did a little bit of a session on what to post, and I think it was just you're getting a little bit of a roll with it. And all of a sudden I noticed that I was getting quite a bit of decent engagement, and I felt like there was quite a lot of people rooting for me as well, like people that I knew, clients and candidates just really kind of rooting for me, and that spurred me on. And actually, looking back, I did a post the other day on the best 3 decisions that I made in that first year, and one of them was investing time in building a personal brand, because within 6 months that was already paying off. And I think it was in the way that I'd be doing— I'd be making a BD call, and when I introduced myself, they go, oh yeah, I've seen you on LinkedIn. And I'd be like, wow, this is massive door opener. And some of them, it was hilarious, there's some of them that were like a little bit starstruck. I bet you get that a lot, actually. Some of them where they were a little bit like, oh, the famous Phoebe Stowe ringing me, and I'm like, great. Like, it's just as simple as getting your name seen on LinkedIn and it opens all these doors. And part of me was kicking myself because I thought, 7 years I've been on LinkedIn as an observer not doing anything. Where would I be if I'd have started this 7 years ago? So massive, sort of anybody that asks sort of what should I be doing, I would just say get on LinkedIn and just post. Don't worry too much about it, just post.

And have you found then that building your own brand has directly impacted.recruit?

Absolutely, yeah. So there was a good period of time, and I would still say this now, but we have had a little bit more of a push recently on BD because we're after a certain type of client, but for a good time we didn't have to do any BD because everything was inbound. And it was a combination of the LinkedIn sort of presence and reviews on Google. So because we're in such a local space, I just ask every single candidate and client that we work with, would you just write us a review, an honest review about how you found the service? And within 12 months, we were the highest rated accounts and finance recruiter in Lancashire on Google. That's what you want to be if you're just focusing on Lancashire. Yeah, exactly. And that was one of the things that I don't like blowing my own trumpet at all. So I think when you can say like, you know, 'Have a look at us on Google,' and all of a sudden we're like there with our 65-star reviews, and I'm like, 'There you go,' like it. Or people will type in 'accountancy recruiter Lancashire,' and because we're— because of all the reviews, we'd be straight to the top. So that helps.

No, that's brilliant. So let's talk about this first year. Yeah, how difficult was it? I think a lot of people can advertise and make, uh, this recruitment entrepreneurial journey look very sexy, and sort of outside looking in, you just see the pictures on LinkedIn when they had their record quarter and when they're hiring people.

Yeah.

But like, for you and your experience, we're 3 years in now, looking back at that first year, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, when we're preparing for this, at the end of that year, like you said, you didn't initially plan to grow it, but there was like 2 of you, I think, was it?

Yeah. So, um, we set up in July 2019, just before COVID so we had 9 months before the pandemic hit.

Yeah.

So I'm obviously— we know that the pandemic if you're in your first year of business, that really, really wasn't ideal. So obviously that was challenging, but let's not talk about that. So that, that 9 months in the kind of run-up to the pandemic, the most difficult thing honestly that I would say was the isolation of— I was literally just working at my kitchen table. I'm a sociable person, I have to be around people. I can't be alone with my own brain for too long because before I know it, I'm overthinking why my gardener's not turned up today, and I'm like, what? Like, what's wrong with me? So for my motivation, and I realised quite early on, I always thought I'd be this one-woman band, but quite early on I'm thinking, I need, I need staff, I need a team, I need people around me, or I need to go and work with other people because I can't be on my own all day. It's no, it's no fun, it's boring. So that's what, that's what really I found tough. And I met Sophia. Sophia was my first member of staff, and I met her when the business was only 4 months old, but I wanted to make sure that I had at least 6 months of her salary—

runway—

in the bank so that if anything did happen, I, you know, I'd give her time to get up and running. She didn't have any experience. I didn't know how well I would bring somebody on. So I said to her, look, as soon as I've got this amount of money in the bank, the job's yours. She was working for a local college, so she was in this dead stable job, and then obviously we'd said April would be a good time for it to start, and then obviously she hands a notice in, the day after we're going into lockdown, and I rang her and I was like, eh, about that notice, do you reckon you can like retract it and just kind of like stay? Because I was just thinking the risk, we, all my jobs had literally just been cancelled, and I'm like, oh, you don't know how things are going to play out. Honestly, it was like bonkers, the way that the timings were. She handed a notice in, the next day the country's locked down. So she was, I honestly don't know what it was that made her stick with it because we'd been having these conversations since the October before. She started the following July. Wow. So, but she was just determined. She really wanted to be a part of it. So yeah, by the end of the first year, we got our first office and I got my first employee and it was then that I was like, right, this is where the fun stuff happens now. I'm not on my own anymore.

So let's just talk about that. 'Cause I've definitely experienced that and I think a lot of people can relate to this. So like when you say, it was really challenging. Like, that was one of the biggest challenges. Like, how did you deal with that? Did you, I don't know, always end up speaking to your partner? Like, did you have friends that you can speak to? Like, how did you find ways to socialize? Or I don't know, what was actually difficult about that? Because I think sometimes people can underestimate that.

Yeah.

And I think, yeah, can take for granted that they're part of the team, and that's one of the funnest parts about recruitment.

Yeah.

And I think one of the hardest things that I found is definitely like, I don't know if you found this, is like, yeah, like, I don't know, you achieve a goal, whatever, and you just find this giving yourself a high five. Yeah, it's not as fun really.

Yeah.

How did you, how did you deal with that? I know you said like, I've recognized that, so I wanted to hire.

Yeah.

But like, how did you actually, what helped you deal with that? Because you still carried on with it.

Yeah. So I would say for me, the key was just getting variety. I liked to have a change of scenery from time to time and not just be sat on my own in my kitchen. So I'd go and work from a coffee shop where, even though I wasn't talking to people, there was a little bit of like a buzz around me, and I could just see other stuff happening. Um, I inquired about a few co-working spaces actually and didn't even get there before COVID hit, so that would have been an option, and I think I would have quite enjoyed that. And then I had other friends that worked remotely in the jobs that they did. So one of my friends was like an online travel agent, so one day a week we'd work together. But what I started to find was we had to really try and make sure we weren't distracting each other because we both worked in quite isolating jobs, and when we were together we'd just chat. So we'd have to then really hold ourselves, each other accountable.

So yeah, another common challenge I hear, I don't know how you found with this, and it may not be just specific to the first year and the entire journey so far, I think a lot of people can be very, um, what's the word, not fearful, but when people think about setting up on their own, they're very conscious that they don't know all the business stuff, accounting, HR, all that. Like, how has that been daunting for you? Have you navigated that? Has that been more challenging than you expected? Because I think that can— that also holds a lot of people back.

Yeah, so you really need to make connections with people that know what they're doing, basically. And I think if you've got people to reach out to, like anybody in your network, probably ask you, like, who would you recommend to help me get all my terms of business in place? And you probably know someone that would know someone, if you know. It's all about having your network. I think of people that are experts. The only thing I really know how to do is recruit. And so what I needed was sort of the back office functions in place to be able just to recruit.

Did you have that from day one?

Was it difficult to get that? Yeah, so I actually worked with, I don't know what you'd call it, like a, I don't know if you call it like an incubation company, but it was actually a business that supports recruitment startups. And to be honest, if I'd have known that I was going to grow the business and be a lot bigger, whether I would have gone down that route, I'm not too sure. I probably, it's great if you're going to just be a one-person band because they can just raise all your invoices for you, do all your accounts, do all your legal stuff, your it stuff, your website, everything. And that was great. But the way that it is structured is you pay them sort of per invoice that you raise, you will pay them like a small percentage.

What, forever?

For like a certain period of time.

Okay, I didn't know this.

Yeah, yeah, so we set this up for like a 3-year contract, which is, I mean, it's still working quite well and it's still at the moment cost-effective because I absolutely milk it. I will send them as many clients as I can.

Yeah, like you really maximise the resources.

I get my money's worth. Yeah. And they know that and they joke about that, how I do love to get my money's worth. But actually, the way that I look at it is that's cheaper for me to do that than it would be to hire an IT person, an accounts person, an HR person, all the rest of it.

And it's also the time you would spend on it, thinking about it, worrying about it, that you don't have to.

Yeah.

So what— so people— yeah, like, would you recommend people to consider going down that route? Not the particular company that you work with, but I guess that is also something a lot of people consider because, because they are wary of it, that they don't have those expertise and that might stress them out.

Yeah.

So it sounds like, yeah, you outsource that basically.

Yeah, and there are a few other companies that do that as well. Um, the one that I— there's been particular challenges with the one that I have worked with because 12 months after I signed up with them, they were taken over and the service changed. So that's been quite a big challenge for me because then I was tied into them. So all I would say is maybe grab 2 or 3 companies that do this thing and find businesses that work with them and are contracted to them, if you will, like I have with mine, and ask them, call them and just ask them firsthand, how have you found it? What's the— what's good, what's not so good? And just weigh it up. Um, you can— some people do that, some people don't like the thought of being tied in, so there might even be ways that you could tie in for less amount of time. But it was— I got a really good deal with them, to be fair. Um, so I was pretty happy with that, but everyone's different.

And then what about, just keeping on the topic of challenges, I guess obviously second year was like COVID vibes, yeah, right? So let's talk about, obviously recently, uh, not too long ago had your third year anniversary, right? So let's just, let's just keep it, um, to the last year. Like, what, what have been maybe some of the challenges that you've been most surprised by, didn't expect, uh, in the last year? Because now you've got a few more people in the business. Like, how many people are you today?

So including myself, we're a team of 5.

Yeah, 5, exactly. So yeah, the last year, what have been— because I'm sure now by going into that third year you've got a bit of a flavour of things to expect.

Yeah.

The highs and lows. What was, yeah, some of the challenges that maybe you least expected this year?

Do you know what, overall I wouldn't say this. I'm really lucky right now and I can say that there's not been a huge amount of real challenges. Year 1 was the hardest, and then since then it's flown really nicely. But if I was to really think about what's been most difficult, I think we've had a couple— we've made a couple of potential— I don't want to call them a hiring mistake, but we didn't quite know what we were looking for when we first hired. So we did— we wanted an administrator, we brought somebody on on the Government Kickstart scheme, and it wasn't quite the right fit for our business, and it wasn't actually what we needed in the end, which was— we only brought them in on a contract, so it was all okay, and I was just glad that it wasn't permanent. And then we tried to bring another person in to do a bit of like resourcing and admin, and absolutely loved her. She felt recruitment wasn't for her, but to be honest, I would have been, I would have been moving her into a consultant role because I don't think we actually needed that. So I think the challenge for us has been figuring out what do we need as a business and trying really hard not to follow the typical, what I've always experienced when I work for my old company was every team of sort of 5, 6 consultants had an administrator. Actually, I don't need that. And I think that's what's been quite difficult when you bring in staff in and it's their lives and it's your business and the team's impacted. You've got to get it right, and that's quite difficult, really.

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Really?

Yeah, hiring for your own company. Yeah, I went for dinner with someone recently who, yeah, is like, yeah, 18 months into their own recruitment business journey, and he sort of said to me that the things that he thought would be the hardest, like winning new business, standing out, all of that, he's found easier.

Yeah.

And then the things that you would think he'd find easier had been the hardest, like hiring for his own team, getting people bought in. Like, have you found How have you, how have you found like, uh, the people that you've hired, or hiring people, uh, and I don't know, you feeling— I don't know if you've had this, like, like obviously it's your business, so like you're even more motivated.

Yeah.

Have you had to navigate that, or like feel like you've, um, hired people or had to understand that these people aren't going to work as hard as you?

Well, do you know what's really interesting? I don't— it's gonna sound ridiculous— I don't see it as my business.

Really?

Yeah, I see it as our business.

Okay.

Because So, there's 5 of us at the minute, for a long time there was 4, and we just had a quarter of, it was a quarter of the business each, and we were directly responsible for our little quarter of the business, and that's very much how my team see it. I don't, and I'm quite transparent with my team, I don't pay myself more than my team. The money in the bank isn't my money, it's to be reinvested, and that's how I've always seen it, and I think because of that, they, the people that I've got are probably quite motivated by that, rather than if it was, right, you're working for me and this is my vision, 'and my dream and I'm going to take all the money out,' or 'I'm going to go and set myself up for a nice little life and leave you all working here.' And that wouldn't work for us. Like, it's, you know, and everyone's different and everyone's motivated differently, but I know that my team are motivated by— they feel like they are a part of something, and they are a part of something, and it's ours for the taking, if you will. The market is ours. So yeah, quite lucky with that, really.

Well, you think you've been able to make people feel— have you have you just been lent into being transparent and honest with everyone, and people— you found people bought into that?

Yeah, absolutely. I was laughing because my accountant rang me in at the end of the financial year and said, you do know that you've got quite a lot of money here that you could take, you know, when you get to the next tax threshold. So you can take this much as a dividend if you want to take it. And I was like, wow. I looked at what I'd paid myself for the year. I'd paid myself like £21,000, and I was like cool, like, that's like nice. I don't need any more than that, to be honest. I live quite a simple life. And, but I just thought, that's so funny, like, my team have made an absolute fortune between them, obviously commission and stuff, and I'm just here like bumbling along on £21 grand a year. But I think I've always been pretty open with them about that, and I intend to carry on being quite open. And I was quite inspired in the early days. I went, I went to, I used to go to whatever free thing I could go to just to be around people, and there was this Women in Business event going on, and there was this lady there called Sandy Lindsay, who has a marketing company in Manchester, and she was talking about how she put the company into employee ownership, and it really kind of sparked something for me, and I thought, that is great. Like, imagine joining a company and knowing you own a piece of it. So my team know that long term, that's the plan, that's on the cards if we can get it to work.

So, so do you think, looking back then, I've sort of found this sitting down with people like yourself or people that have been on different journeys, like when you said you started the journey, you felt like it was, yeah, maybe just going to be on yourself, one-person business. Do you think, like, for people considering going on that recruitment entrepreneurial journey, that it's important to really understand what type of business that they want?

I don't think it is really. I think you can just kind of, in a way, go with the flow with it. That's what I did anyway, because— and I think the reason I did that was because I didn't want to set the expectation early on that I'm going to have this massive business and massive team, because what was important to me was doing the right thing. And if somebody doesn't share that vision and that value, then we're not growing the team, and it is as simple as that. And if it just remains just me because I can't find those people, then that's fine. So I don't think you necessarily need to know how big you want to scale it. It's great if you do, because like, go hell for leather at it, but But if you don't know, I think that's okay as well, just to let it organically end up.

Do you think it would have helped you though make decisions?

Would it help me?

Do you think it would have helped you make decisions if you knew from day one that you wanted an employee-owned company, you wanted to be a certain amount of people? I don't know, I think that, because I think a lot of people can get caught up in like different, should I be doing this, should I be doing that? And oftentimes it comes from a place of like, like not knowing like where you're going. Obviously you can only, for me, I do really struggle when people are, where do you see the business in 5 years? For me, I really struggle with that.

Yeah, I do.

So it's like, why do you struggle? Huh? Because I just think anything can happen. Yeah, basically. So I just feel like I can write down what I want it to be, but I don't know, I just feel like so many things can influence that. So for me, I've— yeah, so I guess I'm asking that because I speak to a lot of people who, yeah, can find themselves in a difficult position, and they're like, you can then almost find yourself like, should I hire someone? Should I be doing this? And oftentimes it's because they haven't really thought about like where they want to be in another 12, 24 months' time or the type of company they want to own.

Yeah, I've noticed that every time I have a plan, something else happens that's not that plan but turns out to be better.

Fair.

So that's been your experience?

That's been my own experience. So I feel like I can't comment on what other people should do with that, but if that, you know, you might find the same happens, and at least have a a rough kind of plan of where you want to go, but also kind of, in a way, and this does not feel right for a recruiter, but kind of let go of control of it a little bit and trust that as long as you're working hard and you, you know, and you're doing the right thing, good stuff's going to come from that.

Women in business.

Yeah.

Women in recruitment.

Yeah.

Do you think you've been disadvantaged?

No.

Because you've been a woman in recruitment?

No, so obviously we had a brief chat about this, didn't we? And, and, um, you mentioned about a podcast that you'd listened to, which I then happened to come across and listen to about, um, I suppose people deciding— I think you can jump on the bandwagon of, oh, as a woman in business, it's harder for me.

Definitely in recruitment, I think that's part of the narrative.

I don't know whether sometimes it can depend on what market you're recruiting into. If you like, for example, my sister runs a business in the motor trade, so she gets mansplained— is it mansplained?— on the daily.

I don't know what that means.

So basically, a man will explain something to you that you know about.

Oh, right, okay, mansplained.

You know full well what it is, but they will explain it like you don't.

Right.

So because my sister works with—

in the motor trade—

she sells alloy wheels. So on a daily basis—

she sells alloy wheels?

Yeah. Okay. So on a daily basis, she will get that that kind of conversation, you know, and that patronising sort of approach from a lot of people, and she finds that really frustrating. And actually she holds her own and she knows her stuff, so, you know, that's great for her. So maybe in the industry that you're in, if it is, you know, male-dominated—

Did you have to navigate that while she was building your career?

Not at all. I will never— I mean, we once had, um, we once had a managing director as the business grew, we became part of this group. We had a managing director who was the most sexist pig. Yeah, but he was just, he was just a dick, you know what I mean? He was just one on his own, and he was like that with everybody, and it wasn't because I was in recruitment, it was just because that was him. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I've really come across any challenges at all. Maybe, maybe I'm just sort of ignorant to it, and great if that's the case, but maybe I've been lucky, I don't know, but I wouldn't personally say that being a woman has got in the way of anything. We've talked, although we have talked about how, you know, one of the dilemmas I think a lot of women face when they're, so I'm 29, so I think one of the dilemmas or upcoming dilemmas is going to be what do you do about having a family? So, I think if there was going to be anything standing out about women in recruitment, it might be that. And when I've seen people I've worked with you know, go off and have kids and then come back to work, they've always felt this guilt around, are they doing recruitment well enough and are they doing motherhood well enough? And how do they— it's very hard to balance that.

And how are you going to balance that?

So I think one of the things that drives me and always has, has been freedom, basically. And working in recruitment really is my ticket to freedom. And one of the things about having my own business is that I can be as flexible as I need to be because I don't have to report to anybody. And I want my team to feel the same, that whatever flexibility you need, it's yours. So the way that I've got a great team, to be fair, and one of the things we talk about in every single one-to-one is the succession plan, and I've given myself 3 years to get the business to a point where I can leave it for a bit, you know, for 12 months, and go and have a child and then come back to it, you know, potentially part-time. Because I don't— the way I look at the business is there are people better, probably better than me within my business, stronger billers than me, and probably better people managers than me. In my business, so I'm not that fussed about keeping a really tight hold on that because they'll probably do a better job, to be fair. So that's how I'll— I will balance it, um, hopefully.

How do you think you would have balanced it if you stayed employed? Would you be more concerned?

Yeah, I would. The business I was working for, yeah, I would, because there's no way I could— it's hard to do a recruitment job part-time. It's really hard. It's not a part-time job. You end up trying to fit a full-time job into 4 days, and that's how it is. And I've seen that, and I've seen how draining that is. So I personally would have struggled with that, and maybe I would have moved out of recruitment. Maybe I would have gone to see if I could sell some alloy wheels with my sister instead.

Because that, yeah, I have, I have, like, that's been the insight that I've taken from the conversations I've had. But I would like to think that it's evolved more. Yeah, because I think I've interviewed women who almost feel like they've been, like, hard done by Really? When coming back. Yeah, like, just it's been made more difficult, like, because the perception is, like you just said, can they do the job part-time? So should we just get someone that isn't going to be working part-time to work their patch, take their clients, all those things, you know?

So I've got one of my team on mat leave at the moment, Sofia, and it's one of the— if anyone can do a full-time job part-time, it is her. Like, she is like incredible, but I don't want her to feel that pressure. So she will be supported in whatever way she needs support, and she knows that. Like, we'll, we'll have a chat about whatever flexibility she needs and whatever support she needs from me on her desk, like she will get. She needs to bring in a resource, so that's fine. Like, we'll figure it out.

I think more and more companies will have that mindset.

I hope so.

So talk to me about, like, in terms of people listening to this, a subsection of people will be inspired or one day really like the idea of having their own recruitment business. So knowing what you know now, what would you sort of, what advice would you offer to these people that you think would put them in the best position to have the start that they really want to have?

Yeah, okay.

What comes up for you on that?

So a few things. If they're just starting out in recruitment and they know that one day they want to work for themselves, the best thing they can do right now is focus on their reputation. In every single conversation that you have, if you just do the right thing by people, you're going to just as a byproduct build that fantastic reputation, and that's going to be super helpful when you go to set up on your own. I've seen a few people try and set up on their own without that reputation to fall back on, and that's when it's risky, really. There's always an element of risk when you set up on your own, but you want to try and eliminate that risk wherever you can, and that's one of the areas you can. If you are sort of like a couple of years into recruitment, I would say that once you get into like a senior consultant role, from that point I'd say you'd really want a couple of years in a senior role to get as much experience as you can and as much exposure as you can to how that business runs, how to lead people, coach people, support people, just try and just be a sponge and learn it all, and start at that point saving up, basically. So one of the things that was— I don't know if we would still be here if I hadn't have done this, because obviously the pandemic hit 9 months in, and there's always going to be the economy to contend with, always. Um, but I started saving money to cover 6 months' worth of my wage.

You gave yourself a 6-month runway?

Yeah, and as it happened, I stretched it out to 12 months. I scrimped for 12 months, but without that, I bought myself time there to do it right and not to feel that pressure to immediately bill and make the wrong decisions. Like, everyone in recruitment will know that if you're, if you're entering a month and you've got your target to hit and you've not really, you know, had any kind of like forward orders and you're going into a month on zero, the pressure that you are then under doesn't actually help anything, doesn't usually equal the results. Usually when you, I suppose, think ahead and you're always a month ahead, it flows nicer. And it's the same when you set up on your own, you need time to get it right and just to build your clients and do the right thing. So get your savings, get your money in the bank, and don't see the money in the business as your personal— you might have a really— you might get a nice £10,000 fee and think, right, I'll leave £5,000 in the business and I'll take £5,000 out to treat myself. That's risky again because you don't know what next month's going to look like. So just give yourself as long as you can and as much time as possible.

I like that. So yeah, early on, yeah, just build, just put everything into your reputation. Yeah, definitely agree with that. I think that's a great insight. And then yeah, definitely, I think if you're a senior or in the leadership position, yeah, really lean into, yeah, getting exposure to P&Ls and how different things work, terms of business. And yeah, really get— there's so much experience that you can get from that. Yeah. And then, yeah, I guess sometimes it can be overlooked. Just be a bit smart. Yeah, I feel like some people can almost find themselves like, I'm done with this, like, I just, I need out. And then, yeah, they've got a lot more pressure on their back maybe than that was necessary.

Yeah.

Um, I guess before, before we finish then, and I sort of get your thoughts on, um, where this business is going, what you're really excited about, I guess I feel like I may know the answer to this, but I want to ask it because I think oftentimes when I speak to people, one of the the biggest concerns they have when starting out is definitely, um, how quickly am I going to be able to sign terms with my first client, do deals? A lot of people have to contend with covenants for 6 months, 12 months. Um, what, what has been like the, the most effective way for you to consistently win business and, and get that first deal done? What, I don't know, what ended up really working for you quickly, do you think?

So I was really lucky, I only had a 4-month I think it was a typo on my contract. They cocked up big time. So I was like so buzzing for that. So I saw that as a 4-month opportunity. I knew after 4 months all my existing clients that I'd worked with for the last 7 years will be on the phone. So I had a 4-month window there to BD around businesses I've never worked with before. So when I was with my previous employer, I had quite a small patch So I had half of Lancashire basically. So for that 4 months, I focused on the other half of Lancashire that I'd never been able to touch before and telling them a little bit of just around my story as to why I've set up. And people want to help, they want to support you. So it was just really nice to do that. And that paid off because 4 months in, all my old clients, I rang them straight away. I was like, I can work with you now. And they were buzzing. I'd book visits. Visits, visits is the big one. Just get out there. Get in front of them, you'll always win business. But I'd book visits with all my original clients, and it wasn't a problem. It was just getting in front of people. It just works every time. It's just do the basics.

I think it's interesting, right, because I think you might almost think that being a small little business, people may, I don't know, not buy into that. Or you, you think, oh, I've been part of this established business, so that's why this. But again, when I was catching up with my friend, he was saying, actually It's been quite— the thing that I've really found is that companies actually really resonate with our story and what we're doing. So you found that?

And do you know what, as well, I've asked my clients for feedback on if you were to compare our service to the likes of the big players in the market, how does it compare? And they said, well, you haven't got a big name to hide behind. Your service is— you're exposed, and it's all about your service. And if you lose a client, that's your business gone. You know, not just one client.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

You've got to get it right, whereas when you've got a big name to hide behind, then it doesn't really matter if you screw people over along the way. That business isn't going to go bust. So that's one thing that my clients have noticed. You're exposed and you can't hide.

I think you can, you can fall into the trap, can't you, of like trying to overplay what you are before you're there. Yeah, because you can be quite self-conscious of how you're going to be perceived. It's just 'Phoebe and I kitchen, dining room table, dinner's gonna take me seriously.' Yeah. But actually, if you really own that and demonstrate that, look, this is going to mean a lot to me, it's going to mean even more to me, and then you deliver on that.

Yeah.

It's actually something that people really buy into and actually, yeah, like, like doing business with.

Yeah, absolutely.

So where's this business going then? Obviously, 3 years, second year had to deal, contend with the COVID You're no longer alone. Yeah, right. You've got a team that you seem super proud of and happy with.

Yeah.

So where's this business going over the next couple years then?

So this is the first— we're just about to head into our fourth year, and this is the first time where we've gone into a new year where we've got a team that know what they're doing. They don't need any— don't really need any more training. We have an ongoing training session every Wednesday morning which just fills in the blanks, really. But the team are all just set up now just to go and smash it. And the plan really What we want is, I mean, me and you have talked about having that million-pound company, and I think it is just that, that vision of that's when you know you've got a really good business. But I want to try and do that with as few, like, the fewest kind of recruitment consultants I can. I want everybody to just to be absolutely maximising their potential and to be really well supported, and down the line to have a piece of the pie, and to then kind of leave it up to the team as to what do you want to do with the business, do you want to grow the business? Are you happy with the size that it is? Where do you want to go with it? I'm not fussed, I'll just come along for the ride. I'm quite happy.

I love that.

Yeah.

So what are you most excited by?

Um, just continuing to enjoy the journey. I just, I'm really enjoying it. Like, I love going to work, so I can't say. I just want to keep seeing where it goes and excited about the future in general.

Yeah, well, I'm excited to look outside in where it goes. So I've always enjoyed our conversations, and I think, um, yeah, kudos to you, like, in terms of being smart with your money at the beginning. Didn't know COVID was around the corner, um, and it seems like you've really grown, um, into leading a team, running a business.

Thank you.

And it sounds really exciting. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Thank you.

Really enjoyed it, and I'm really excited for everyone to listen.

Yeah, fab. Thank you.