Rachel Mayne - Dual desking, a positive mindset & always doing BD will create success in recruitment

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm very excited to be joined by Rachel Maine, who is a director at Ventula Consulting, who are a boutique recruitment agency operating both in the technology and business change markets and the professional services markets. And Rachel entered the recruitment industry straight out of university in 2009, where she joined a company called Rullion IT, where she progressed from trainee to an executive within 5 years. Rachel then went on to manage and lead a team focused on the business change and IT transformation space before joining Venture Consulting as an associate director in 2017. And then since then, over the last 4 years, Rachel's been involved in helping grow the business and also is kind of responsible for supporting a delivery team of 5 consultants. Rachel, thank you for joining me on the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Hishem. It's a real privilege. Great to be here.

Amazing. So where we always like to start is, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

The million-dollar question. I mean, there are so many, but if we were to focus, I think first and foremost, and this goes across, well, for all of us really, is positivity. I think it encompasses a lot of other traits, of course, like your typical resilience and whatnot, but I think unless you have a positive attitude, then it's going to be difficult for you to succeed. Um, it's about flipping like a negative situation and turning it into a positive. I think that's so important. So having that mindset is really going to help you. Um, so if you're a bit of a negative person, I'm not saying recruitment isn't for you, but you maybe just work on that mindset, and I think you'll notice that things get so much better for you. Um, I touched on it— resilience, of course. You have to be able to get back on the horse, as they say, if a deal drops out or you get a rejection. Um, I think self-awareness is so important as well. Um, having that strong emotional intelligence. Um, being professional, of course, but also having some personality and sense of humor. I think marrying those two, I think There are so many people that may be a bit too professional, and I think it's always good to have, have that personality because I think clients really like it. It does make you stand apart. Um, and then finally, fluid intelligence. I mean, you have to be very reactionary. Every day in recruitment is different. I think you need to have that in order to be able to survive, really. Um, quite a few things, but I'll say they're the most important traits from my perspective.

Yeah. I like that list. So I guess before we sort of start unpacking your career, what came up for me when you shared that, your first point, because I think that's something that sometimes people early on in their recruitment career really have to work through.

Yeah.

How positive was Rachel at the beginning of her recruitment career? How much of a positive mindset did you have?

I mean, I'm not that great at talking about myself. It's more how people describe me. And I think, yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, anyone that's listening that knows me, but I've said I've always been of a very positive disposition. Okay. Obviously, where did that come from? But I mean, you've known me for a couple of years, Hishem. I think, I mean, I would say I'm naturally quite positive. So I'd say that when I first started, I was just as positive as I am today.

Yeah. Well, I guess the reason why I ask is I'm interested to like where that came from. Was it that you're surrounded, your family and friends were positive? Was it That's just like you thought, well, what's the alternative? I don't know. Anything interesting?

Do you know what? That's really— it's a really interesting question and I've got no idea. I think, I mean, my mum, I look at her, she's a very positive person. The people I surround myself with are very positive people. And I think sometimes you just have that mindset and I don't think you often know where you got it from. But I've been fortunate that I do have it and And I can tell negativity. I can really feel it if someone's being negative to me or if someone is quite a negative person. I just, I shy away from that, really. I can't really quite get my head around it.

Love that. Okay. Interesting. So let's— obviously you've worked in the industry for sort of some time now, obviously straight out of university. So I guess what I'm always interested to hear, because it's typically the most challenging parts of someone's career, particularly in recruitment, but like, how would you describe first year in recruitment, early days? Like, how would you just describe that experience?

Wow, well, the first year in recruitment is so, so fun. Well, back when you could go to pubs and go out and meet people. It's the steepest learning curve, it's definitely the hardest year. I've been in recruitment 11 years now, and the first year is always going to be your hardest. And it's such a steep learning curve. You're joining an industry that you don't know anything about. Like, I didn't even know the difference between contract and permanent. I didn't really know what recruitment was when I first joined. So you have to learn the industry and then, uh, learn your vertical market or whatever it is. So, um, what— whatever skill sets they are, and then within whatever sector, there's so much. And then learning how to close people, learning the candidate management side, there's so much information, um, and wanting to get that promotion Um, I just remember constantly being in competition with my peers. Um, there were 4 of us who were hired. We were all grads, um, all very similar level, I guess, in terms of our CV, um, or academic background. Um, and I think we were just all— it was healthy competition. We just all wanted to do the next deal. We all wanted to get promoted first. Um, so it was really full on, but highly competitive, but in a good way and actually really enjoyable. You did feel like you'd got that city job, as cringing as that sounds, but, you know, you're out a lot, you meet a lot of new people, going to nice restaurants, going to nice bars, but then also you're working really hard, you know, you're working the long hours. So it was very high octane, I'd probably describe it as.

Hmm. Okay. And then just to frame out, because so you joined Roulian, And yeah, like, as at the time, how, how big was that business? Because it's, it's quite a big business, isn't it, from what I understand?

I didn't actually realize how big Rulian was until I left. So, um, because I joined, um, Tom Breeze and Andrew Shaw, who are now Venture's founders, um, at the end of 2009 when I just graduated. I was the first one they actually hired in because it was just the two of them. They were setting up the London office. So even though Rulian has big presence up in the north. In London, not many people had heard of them, and obviously I was the first into the office barring Tom and Andy. So it was kind of like a startup but with the backing of Roullion, even though Roullion wasn't, um, massively well known in the south compared to our— some of our competitors like Aston Carton and, you know, like various others. So I didn't realize how big Roullion was because to me it was just us in that office.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, that's really interesting.

Everyone knows who they are, so yeah.

So I guess, so you spoke a bit about that first year. I guess if I say to you, what were some of the sort of biggest challenges that you maybe had to overcome in that first year? What comes up for you, do you think? What were some of the things you had to really push for in that first year?

I don't think I was naturally the best closer of candidate.

Okay.

In all honesty, I had to learn a lot from Tom and Andy when it came to that because I had some— when I first hit my promotion, I had a couple of offers and I couldn't close either of them. And I was absolutely gutted because I'd just been promoted, I'd have been paid on the full commission scheme, I'd got the client on or whatever it was, the process, but I couldn't close them and Now I'm like, God, Rachel, what an idiot. Like, it's like if you'd done things differently. So I actually struggled with that, but, um, now I absolutely love it. Like, I love having those conversations. I can really thrive on it. So that's something that I was, I was really scared to have those conversations back then, but once I understood what's more comfortable with that, yeah, yeah. So I'd say that that was probably my, my biggest challenge starting out.

Really interesting. So I guess in that then, what, again, thinking back, and it doesn't have to be particularly your first year, but sort of focusing on the theme of like early on in your career, what was maybe sort of the best piece of advice that you received early on in your career, do you think?

Under-promise, over-deliver.

Nice.

Yeah, 100%. And that goes for everything in life, I find. That's so important.

Mm, okay.

I mean, there is, there's a lot of loads of lots of advice I've received and lots of sayings that really sum things up, um, but that's probably the main, the main thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, got that. So just to sort of frame it up for people for context, so when you enter the industry and like where you are now, have you, because are you, um, have you always typically been in contract or has it been like a dual desk or like, just give me a bit of context on that for people listening and can help, help that?

Sure. So when we started out, we were predominantly permanent business, um, but, um, and then, um, over a couple— once I started building my vertical out, um, so towards the end of 2010, um, we were able to work both contract and permanent roles because, you know, if you're building a vertical market, like, you should be able to service both. Otherwise you're giving half your business to someone else. So, um, Roulan Roy is really good with that. If you've run your own business, then you can work both the contract and the perm roles. Um, so I was trained initially doing permanent, but then as I, uh, started to be a consultant doing new business, I did contract as well. Um, and then since then I've been doing both. Um, when I joined Venture in 2017, I was a director of contracts. Um, yeah. But then since then, obviously with the market changing due to IR35 and various other things, um, I now work across both again. So I started perm, did both, then went contract, and now I'm doing both.

Okay, that's, that's really— honestly, from the amount of conversations I've had, I would definitely wouldn't say that's like typical. Like, obviously I'm sure— so I, I don't— so I guess interested to dig into that. I guess the thing that came up to me, I really like the way that you put that. Well, like why you're potentially giving away 50% of your business, right? Or 50% of things. So I guess what the question that came up for me straight away, and you can sort of draw on any part of your career on this, but like, let's say, like, how have you become, like, what have you had to become better at to make sure that your end client, your end customer knows that Rachel can support them not only on the permanent vacancies, but also on contract. So I think it's like, I don't know, let's say that you've always supported me on a permanent basis. How have you then made sure that you've maximised the opportunity to make sure that they know that at some point, or they know that you can also support on the contract side? Like, how have you always made sure that you covered both?

Good question. So typically you win contract business via working well with the client on the permanent side. Because naturally, well, more often than not, permanent roles are harder to fill than contract roles, unless we're talking very niche technologies, but on the whole. So it's quite difficult to win new contract business, but it's slightly easier to win new permanent business is what I've found. So you do a good job on the permanent side and then your client will more often than not give you contract roles to work on as well. There are times when clients haven't even realized that I've worked contracts and that's something that happened early on. So I've always been really— I've always made sure that I've let them know all of our service lines, um, because obviously there's other things like the retained search piece as well. So, um, I've always been aware that it's really important to get a meeting with the client and explain exactly what your service lines are. So, and, and then if there's any doubt, I would always ask the question, oh, so now we filled this permanent role for you, who do you hire contractors? And how many contractors do you have on site? How, how do you onboard them? And just Just have those conversations. There is nothing wrong with asking. Like, you are a business person and you're here to provide solutions. So, so you should be able to, to provide them with both. Yeah, I love that.

And I think the key part there is that you've got like, it's about ask if you're asking the question when we're in the sort of positive dynamic, aren't we? Where you might have placed someone that I've been looking for and we're having that conversation whilst you've just delivered for me. You get what I mean when you're asking that question?

Yeah, of course. There's been so many times where I've had fixed-term contracts, which I know are rife in the market at the moment with IR35, and I flipped them and said, look, would you consider a day rate contractor? This is what you could get if you had this budget. And more often than not, they're like, wow, this is the level? Yeah, sure, let's get them in for 3 months and see how it goes, rather than committing to, say, a 9-month FTC. So you can flip them like that. So I think it's always really important to be really clear with, with the solutions you can provide because we are a solutions provider. We're not just, you know, send me a requirement and I'll fill it. We have to offer extra, I think.

Yeah. No, I love that. That's really great. So I guess just focus on this for a second because I think it's interesting. Like if I'm listening right now and I don't know, maybe in my, in my business there's separate teams, people that just do permanent, some people just do contract, right?

Yeah.

I guess, how would you just like, if someone would be open to potentially doing both, or at least making sure they're asking the question, getting those opportunities where they then could pass it on to people that could fill it, but that could then mean they could get a share of the commission or whatever, right? Just maximize the opportunities they have in their market. How would you, what would you say, like maybe the top 3 things that you need to master that are a bit different to being a permanent focus recruiter if we're then sort of going down the path of providing our clients with contract talent, fixed-term contract, what are the sort of key things that you need to become really good at that may be slightly different to the permanent side?

Okay, um, um, speed of delivery, number one. I mean, you can't be— I have, I set myself a deadline whenever I get a contract role to have it delivered within 24 hours, no matter what. Um, right, 3 people minimum. Um, with permanent, you obviously— there are less people typically. You can have maybe a week or so to go out, do your LinkedIn headhunting, however you do it. But with contract, speed is so important. I've seen a lot of people who have tried to do contract, but they're just not quick enough. Um, yeah, so I think just being really astute with that, like, look, I've got— even if they don't give you a deadline, you say to them 'You will have 3 of the best candidates by close of business on X day,' which would be 24 hours, and you just have to, to get it delivered because if you don't, then someone else will.

So, urgency, urgency, speed.

Yep. Um, number 2, this— you're gonna have a lot of response, whether it's ad, advert, If you're searching headhunting, um, typically at the moment as well, there aren't that many contracts out there, so you have to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. So you could be looking at hundreds of CVs for like a business analyst, for example. All the CVs look the same. How am I going to differentiate? So I think you have to be— to know your market well enough to be able to tell which person is better than the other. So I guess like market knowledge and being able to identify the best out of a big, but like a big— that's a large number of CVs, if that makes sense. So, I don't know how you sum that up in one word, Hishem. That's okay.

No, I guess what you're saying there is, yeah, you have to get— you expect maybe a lot more interest than you would maybe a permanent position, and there's going to be potentially a lot more people in the market. So like, you have to— again, it's speed, isn't it? You have to get really professional and speedy at What is it that I know I need to look for and what are the sort of minimum requirements and get really good at that. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And I think that ties itself into time management as well. You need to dedicate time, right? I'm going to dedicate this, this afternoon to getting 3 of the best candidates. I'm going to make sure that I've covered all different angles off to make sure that I've got the best person rather than my competitors. So it's really about managing your diary effectively. And just being quite ruthless sometimes. If you're not quite sure about someone, not maybe not the right cultural fit, personality, there are so many other people with similar skill sets. So knowing your clients well, it really helps too, because you'll see, oh, they've worked at X company, I know they love people from X company, that person's going to the top of my pile. So it's just being quite astute. Yeah, there is no reason why you can't be good at permanent and good at contract. I think people that think they're one or the other, I mean that could be the case, but I don't see any reason why you couldn't be good at both.

Yeah, absolutely. And then you're obviously living testament of that. So I guess because you've touched on it, let's go into it. But one of the most popular sort of questions and areas that people are really interested in, Rachel, is time management, is how did Rachel sort of early on in her career structure her day to like how she now structures her day. Do you get what I mean? So just because you mentioned that one of those really important tips being time management, it's clearly You've been doing this for 11 years now, right? So something that you probably had to get really good at. Yeah, I guess so. I'm like, let me ask that question to you then, if it's okay with you, because people want to know basically like, what did Rachel do when— how did Rachel structure her days when she was billing, I don't know, $100,000, $150,000, $200,000, just maybe early on in her recruitment career to then when you was billing double that or whatever? What did you change in a day? What, what became non-negotiable and stuff like that. So I guess how, how does your day look now compared to how it looked early on in your career? Do you think that you had to refine and get better at?

It's a difficult one because obviously every day is different. You know, something could happen that takes you— you could have a dropout that's meant to start on that morning and you have to like rework it. You know, I wouldn't— I don't get too hung up on like every day I do this. Religiously. It doesn't work like that in recruitment, in my opinion. I know that people may— so I, when it comes to a week, I always make sure I had time for business development, whether it's now or back then. I think no matter what level you're at, you always need to have your eye on the next client, um, the next new client. So I'll dedicate— I mean, most days I did dedicate at least 2 hours, I'd say, to business development. Um, obviously there are urgent roles that need delivering, so the usual: put the job up the night before, go through your response, do your LinkedIn project the night before as well, come in and do your callbacks. All pretty standard stuff. Um, and then you don't— you may have client calls as well. But every morning, what I do, I get up I would say I'd start work these days, say about 8 o'clock, with our call at 9 o'clock, but I'd have my to-do list written down for the day. Um, yeah, sometimes I do it the night before. It really depends. So I keep structured to that, obviously keep ticking it off. But as we know, things can happen during that day and kind of keep you off. Yeah, and like drag you off course. But I just keep my list and I keep making sure that I do everything on that list before I leave, leave the office. So it's not— there's no magic way to structure a day, I don't think, because I think everyone's— everyone's like, clients are different, everyone's industries are different, or how they work. But keeping that, making sure you're getting good candidates out, make sure your clients are happy, and then looking for the next new business opportunity. No, I love that.

And I think what I, what I find interesting about that, which I think comes up time and time again with more experienced recruiters, is always making space for that new business time, for that business development time, because I think early on you can get a bit complacent with that, can't you? Like, right, I've got these jobs on now, I'm in the press filling, I'm just going to focus on that. And then all of a sudden you get towards the end of the month, you know, oh my God, I filled all these jobs and now I need to restart that and get on to the new business focus again, right?

Yeah, I've seen it happen so many times where people have got so bogged down in what they're delivering or managing accounts and stuff, and then suddenly they fill those roles, there's nothing else in the pipeline. So it's really important to keep it consistent.

And then you feel like you're feeling like it's going up an uphill battle then, and then you might be going— you're just making it difficult for yourself, aren't you? I guess.

Yeah, I think to be a consistent builder, you kind of have to keep consistently doing the business development. I think that it's as simple as that.

Yeah. So let's just— I was going to ask you about sort of, do you sort of set goals and stuff like that, because that's a really popular area. But let me— because again, we've gone into new business, right? Like that, like client development is like the most popular development area for recruiters. It is every time. Like, genuinely.

Yeah. Is this new business or existing accounts?

New business. New business.

Yeah.

But I want to go over that with you because I know from the context that I have, you've been good at expanding accounts as well. We— it's all— it's very easy to go straight to like new business, but I think it's sometimes there's a lot of missed opportunities in terms of expanding accounts, like instead of just doing spot business, right? Yeah. So I guess because we've spoken about it, let's just talk about, again, you can draw on different parts of your career, but let's just talk about your journey with new business, right? So it's something that you always make time for in your weeks because as we just said, that sort of really helps you be a, become more of a consistent biller. So I guess the first question I have for you, and you can maybe say a couple of things, but what comes up for you, but like what has been like the most effective and reliable way for Rachel to win new business? Like throughout your career? Doesn't have to be one thing, but like what, what things have just been the most effective and reliable way for you to continue to win new business and ensure that you're keeping that pipeline field?

Yeah, I think having obviously a vertical market, so market specialism, I think is key. So when I first started out, I had something called Lean and Six Sigma, which is a process improvement methodology, which is really big, um, when I joined recruitment, because it was the time— what was it— financial crisis, and a lot of the banks are wanting to make cost savings. I'm not going too much detail of that, but So ever since I started, I had a vertical, and the more and more I spoke to people about it, I pulled my leads and I kept getting the same names. I was like, I'm gonna win this account, um, and I just keep going. I knew exactly what they wanted because I qualified the leads perfectly, and I had someone that I knew was perfect. I know as soon as this client sees a CV, we'll get an interview, and that's exactly what happened. So, um, It was that really good market intelligence, being like fervent with it, you know, just persistently every day going through the job boards, who else has come on, speaking to people basically and getting that market information and then sending them the ideal candidate. So, it has been, I guess, speccing out as we call it. But from that, I've grown accounts and I've kept clients from that approach that have worked with me for years and years now. So, that's what I found the most effective. Hot leads, getting as much information, speccing in someone who is perfect, and then going from there. Of course, it doesn't work every time. Back in 2009, it may have been a bit easier than it is now, because we had switchboards as well, that we could call the clients up and sell the candidates in. But when I look back at the— and even to this day, an account that I won a couple of weeks ago, it was It was within that vertical. I saw they were hiring. I knew it would be a tough hire because of the salary. I called them up, said, I'm a specialist in this area. I think we've actually spoken about roles before when you're looking. And then, and then they're like, right, well, let's, let's give you a go. You clearly know what you're talking about. So knowing your market inside out and approaching people in the right way, in this targeted and concise way. That's what I found works.

It just consistently works, yeah, okay.

Yeah.

Interesting.

'Cause if you have what, sorry, I was gonna say, if you have what you know the client wants, then they don't care what agency they pay. They're already paying an agency fee, but you just have to tempt them with that and then it kind of goes from there.

Yeah, yeah, I got you. So yeah, really double down on your market knowledge and intelligence. And I think, just in your opinion, 'cause I think sometimes people can, get that mistrade as if like, they, like, people listening to this have to like, be as competent as the people they place, like, in their job, but like, all the people I speak to, it isn't that, it's actually the intelligence of knowing who's doing what, what company's growing, what company isn't growing, where the opportunities are. So, when you say like, really double down on your market intelligence, like, what do you exactly mean by that? Just to sort of make that really clear for people, where can people really double down?

Knowing who's hiring, as you say, knowing exactly what they're looking for, and being able to have a good conversation with the client about it. I know this is like understanding their pain points, saying, look, would you be open to reviewing this CV? I've worked with X competitor. I know that you're doing something really similar. They've got great references, and just really selling the candidate, but knowing about your market, knowing about the skill set, and what that client's pain point is. Like, wow, like, this person really doesn't know what they're talking they're not just a salesperson trying to, trying to get, um, get money about money out of them. We're actually trying to solve their problem because, as we know, in recruitment on contingency, it's, you know, no win, no fees. They're not paying us anything until, until they, they make that offer. So it's just about being really consultative in that and, and knowing what you're talking about. And there's a lot of people that say, oh, you know, I don't really understand my vertical, so I've only been in it 6 months. It's like that you need to understand it. Like, do whatever you need to do, like read books, speak to as many people within the industry as possible. You can't make excuses. Like, if you're giving a market, you should know it inside out as soon as you can, because if you don't, then you won't sound credible and you won't win the business.

Yeah, okay. So let's transition this then to something that clearly you've done really well in your career as well, because you just mentioned it as in like you've— that's how you may have— that's been a really consistent way of you winning business.

Yeah.

And how, how has then Rachel become really good at making sure that we're then building actually long-term client relationships and we're building clients for the long run?

Yeah.

So I guess how have you gone about one, making sure that you're building long-term relationships with clients So then it's not just, okay, yeah, we gave Rachel a chance, she's placed it, that was great, cool, that's that end done. And then the other part of the question, the second part of the question is then how have you become good at going, taking a good client that's spending X to a great client that's spending double that or triple that?

Well, that's quite a big question, really. I'll try to address it from Um, from my experience, so in terms of developing long-term relationships, the number one thing is via delivery. If you deliver them the best candidates, then, then they'll come back to you. And I mean, adventure as a whole, and, and something that I believe for, like, I really believe in is developing these long-term relationships. I'm not interested in coming in, doing one deal, charging a high rate, and then walking off. It's like the hardest thing is opening the business in the place, in my opinion. Why would you then walk away? You want to maximize that as much as you can. So what I would do in the normal world, I'd go out, have a meeting with them, maybe go for a lunch, go for a drink, coffee, whatever it is, um, get to know them more on that kind of personal level, and then say, look, is there anyone who you'd recommend that I could speak to in the business? And you'll be surprised how many people say, actually, I know my colleague's looking for this, do you guys do this? Oh yes, like, it's not my area, but X person, um, is like, is an expert in, say, developer roles. So again, it's by asking the question. It's always better doing that on a face-to-face because people give away a lot more when you're with them face-to-face. You know, it's a bit awkward if they say, oh no, like, you can't work with me anymore. So that, that's really important. When things go back to normal, I can't wait to go meet my clients again. I just think that it will help me develop my current clients even more. So asking that question, would you be happy to sponsor me over to this colleague? Would you be able to CC me in. Um, most of my relationships— in fact, I was looking through this morning, all my roles are on exclusive. So what I would say, I've done a good job for you, you've been wanting to fill this role for X amount of months, would you be happy to work with me exclusively moving forwards? This means I'll be able to give you more dedicated delivery team, etc., etc. So it's about asking the questions, and if you've done a good job, there's no reason why they wouldn't want to introduce you to their colleagues, why they wouldn't want to give it to you on exclusive. And My best client is someone that I spec candid into on my first day as a consultant. It was so fluky, but she's actually a really good friend of mine as well, and she's hooked me up with 4 different clients since that first meeting when I was 21 back in 2009. So yeah, meeting people a lot, keeping in contact and letting them know, like, you are still here, you're still available, and you want to work with them more.

Hmm. I love it. I know, I know you may think, oh, it sounds like quite basic and simple, but I think it's just so important for people to hear, like how, like the most important thing is that you're delivering, that you're providing a great level of service and that needs to be your standard. Because if you really focus on that, then the opportunities long-term, as you just mentioned, are huge. But, and then it's about what clearly you've probably had to become better at is making sure you're asking questions like, okay, well, I've done a good job here. Let's, let's talk about me being exclusive on the next role. And this is the reason why. Or, hey, you know, I've done a good job here. Can— is there anyone else that I can speak to? So it seems like you've got better asking the question, but it all stems from Rachel, someone that delivers. Rachel, someone that has really provided for us. And then that's what gives you the opportunities.

Definitely. And there's nothing wrong with asking these questions. What's the worst that can happen? They say, oh no, sorry, we have to use this other agency. Okay, no problem. Well, I'm confident that I, you know, I will continue to fill these roles. And then guess what? In 6 months' time, they're like, actually, I think we're just going to use you now. So, you know, you have to prove yourself, of course. Um, but if you've done a good job, there's absolutely no harm. And I find account development so much easier than new client, um, development, getting the term signed, to getting the first one in, it's so much harder. Than developing the client.

Yeah. Okay. Love it. So just for context, when, when did you start sort of managing or leading people, being responsible for other people?

Oh, gosh, quite early on, I think. It must have been within my second year at Roullion, I'd say.

Oh, wow.

Okay. So it's always been very meritocratic in that if you win clients and if you have enough work on, you'll get someone to come and help you resource. So from very early on, I've always had someone who, who was able to support me on the delivery side. Yeah, because from the company's perspective, it would free me up to win new clients. So yeah, yeah, I've always had a resource from, from quite a young, a young age, really.

Yeah, sure. And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, obviously with Ventrilo now, is it a bit of a similar like obviously we mentioned in the introduction that you're responsible for supporting a delivery team. So I guess just, yeah, just interested to hear your thoughts really on, because I think there's companies that obviously you've got 360 and different models, right? But I guess why do you feel having a sort of hybrid delivery model is a good one? So where, i.e., yeah, like you just said, maybe Rachel, you spend a lot of time developing existing and new clients and then you've got obviously recruiters that might be early on in their career who maybe start building their networks and communities on the candidate side, but then build, yeah, start building confidence and get good at getting them leads from candidates and going into clients, but they're also supporting you and getting that experience. I don't know, what, why do you think that's a potential good model and how, why do you think it works?

So that's a new kind of model that we've adopted, um, after recent, um, it's kind of like, um, a hybrid model. So it's where we bring people in who've got maybe 6 months or so of experience on the delivery, on the resourcing side, so pretty strong on that side, um, and we can bring them in and they'll have 2 separate commission plans. So you'd have the delivery, so the resourcing, I guess, um, commission scheme, um, but then you'd also have your new business scheme, which is obviously, um, a lot more rewarding. So without giving people— bringing— hiring them and saying, look, you have to do new business, you're going to get no support. We wanted to get people, so to get up and running doing their resourcing deals, so having some money coming in, because I appreciate how important money is, especially at that stage in your, in your career. But then we're also saying, look, we can help develop you on the business development side of things, and you will be rewarded. You know, if you— any new client you bring in, it will be yours, like for as long as you're at Ventula for. And also, I'm more than happy to help open those clients up for them as well. As a director, I'm not paid on individual billing, so it doesn't matter to me whether or not it's my client or it's my, my, my delivery consultant. So that's great in a way because it means that we can all work together and help the company grow as well. So it's that hybrid model of doing the resourcing side, get— getting that money coming in quite early, but then also being able to do the business development side, but not just being thrown in the deep end and like sink or swim, which I know a lot of companies still do for some God knows reason.

But yeah, I got it.

But, but it's working well so far.

So what, why, just why, why do you think that, that's, I don't know, why have you gone down that route for, out of interest?

Um, I think bringing people on with a bit of experience is, uh, quite obvious because we're working from home right now, and it's just knowing that people know the basics, it's so much easier to get them up to speed. When we return to the office, who knows, it may change, but this is how it's working for us right now. And I think it works really well because people can be really— taking that step into business development is the most daunting scary period of your recruitment career. I know I've been through it. Um, this is such a softer landing because of course we'd love people to come in and win loads of new clients straight away, but reality is most people don't, don't do that. So it's— it works because you're not alienating people, or people aren't getting upset because they're not doing any deals. You're keeping that momentum, and they are adding to the business, they are adding value to the business. Um, but then also, if they want to go out there and pull their own leads and chase their own leads, there is that scheme available and there is support available. So it means that people can progress at their own rate, um, and they're not necessarily beating them with a stick to open new clients, which often leads to very like toxic work culture and essentially people leaving. So, um, I can't speak on their behalf, but I think that the people we've hired recently are really enjoying the model, and, um, and hopefully it continues.

Yeah, nice. Yeah, I think the sort of key thing that you said there is that sort of soft landing, because I went through that, and it is it can be daunting. You've built up business development in your head. It's like not something that you've got used to. And then yeah, it can be a challenging transition. So that, that makes sense. So I guess what I was just keen to talk a bit about then was, yeah, your journey with leadership, your journey with communicating with people from a team perspective, getting the most out of your team and stuff like that. So I guess, I guess the first thing Like what, along your journey, what have been some of the sort of challenges or hurdles? Because a lot of the time people will say that sort of being in that billing manager role or just being in a role where you're billing it, managing your own performance and managing other people's performance is one of the most difficult roles in recruitment. And typically, like, you— how, like, typically a lot of people that end up in that role may not have any form of leadership training.

Yeah.

Um, or anything like that. So they have to sort of learn on the job and go through these sort of challenges. So I guess, what, what have been some of the things you've had to work through which you've had to become better at, in terms of things that you may have found more difficult early on in your leadership career when you had to manage other people's performance?

Yeah, there's been a few things really. Um, I think when I first— I mean, I always had a resource, as I mentioned, but not necessarily billing, um, consultant. So with the resources, it was kind of quite easy to manage because I'll just, you know, give them the jobs, I'll go do my BD, happy days. When it becomes like more billing, you look after billing consultants, you're not an individual biller anymore. And I think that's the hardest thing to get over. Before, I was so obsessed with how much I was billing, how much I made the company, how many clients I brought in. And now you have to shift. It's like, no, Rachel, it's not about you, it's about the company. And it's about that being more selfless and being like, actually, hang on, it's not about me being top biller, it's about us billing an amount for the company and for everyone. To be doing really well because there is nothing better than a team where everyone's smashing their targets. It's just such a good environment, and that's when recruitment's at its best. So I think initially that was my problem, um, but then I, I soon got over that and I saw the benefit. Um, and something—

what was the benefit? Just equipment on that. So, because I think that's probably the most common thing is, yeah, not just, not just waking up every day and going, right, how much am I going to bill this month? Or Am I closer to target? But as you said, become more selfless. So like, what, what did you have to tap into? What made— when you did sort of tap into that, what made it worth it? Where did you get maybe your buzz from? Or what, where was you surprised that actually you got a lot of enjoyment out of?

I realized that other people doing well because of how I've helped them and trained them is actually more rewarding than myself. And that's a mindset thing, I think, as you get older as well. You naturally have, you know, watching some, like, your first, someone open their first client themselves is such a great feeling because then you can say, look, I've told you, like, you can do it. And they're so happy and you just get excited for them rather than it being yourself, it's someone else. And you're like, I feel like I need to impart part of that onto other people. I'd just be selfish if I was just to concentrate on myself and focus on my own development. Watching other people prove themselves wrong, you know, you have ups and downs, you have times in the meeting room where they're like, I can't do it, I can't do it, I'm not going to bill, I'm not going to hit target. Then when they do it, I'm like, look, you can, you can do it. And it just shows that, that if you can make other people successful, then it is the best feeling. And you also know that you're not completely useless as well. If you see other people doing well, you know, it is a boost for yourself. Um, definitely. And, and as I said, there, there is no better feeling than when everyone's smashing it. Um, you know, I love that. It's a typical recruitment thing— go out for lunch early on a Thursday or Friday, don't go back to the office, you know. Um, that is a big reason of why I joined recruitment, was for those, for those moments. So I think it's, uh, yeah, I think it's great when you contribute to that.

Some— something you just mentioned there, which is a really popular question I get, is like what you just said there around people going, look, Rachel, I can't do it, I'm finding it difficult, I'm doubting myself. I guess sort of people, and particularly managers or people going on early on on that leadership sort of journey, have to— I think that's something they have to deal with quite quickly, where they will have people in their team doubting themselves and not have that confidence. So I guess The question is, is like in those moments, how, how have you got better at what, where do you typically go to help them carry on or help them start believing in themselves or make them feel like they can do it even though they're doubting themselves?

I think you have to lead from the front and I think you have to like understand the situation and explain why it's happened and you have to flip. I always say this flip negative into a positive. If people are getting down on themselves, I'll say, well, last year you did X, Y, and Z. Like, everyone has blips. No one's consistent. Not every quarter is going to be amazing for everyone in every year. It's just not going to happen. So I bring it back to times when things did go well, and I'll say, look, what did you do then? How are you doing it differently now? Like, we need to get back to that mindset. What's gone wrong? Is it actually something you could control, or is that life? Has this deal dropped out because that's sometimes happens. It's just about dissecting exactly the situation and then saying, like, look, it's not— it might not even be their fault, you know, it's, it's just a bad run of luck, which we know can happen. Um, it's just being positive, making people realize that it's just a, you know, form is temporary, class is permanent. I do really believe that. You will have times, and I say, look, I'll, I'll draw back on examples when it's happened to me in my pass just to show that like there is, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Yeah, no, I love that. And let's, let's talk about that for a second because I think like clearly you're someone that does have a positive mindset and outlook and yeah, it sounds like you're helping people along your career start sort of seeing the positive and stuff like that. But I guess what have been— I mean, the question that sometimes I get and you can— this could be a question to frame up, doesn't have to be that you've experienced this, but basically people want to know like, what's the question is like, what's the longest you blanked and how did you recover? So people want to know like, what have been the darkest days and how did you like get back on to get to those highs in recruitment? You know what I mean? So feel free to answer the longest time you did blank and then how did you recover, or just sort of draw on an experience where you're like, you know what, I really had to pick myself back up there, and how did you do that?

Okay, well, I mean, I'm a positive person, but obviously there are days and times when I get very angry and frustrated, so I don't want people to think I'm one of these people that's positive all the time because things do happen. In terms of blank, there's never been a massive— maybe 2 months, which actually thinking about it is actually quite a long time if you didn't contact them. So I can't remember what year it was. I think it may have been the end of my second year. Or third yet, but, um, it happens to everyone. Um, then even now there are months where I don't contribute as much as the other directors do. I mean, I'm thinking like January, for example, I think I did like a couple of deals, the rest of the guys did 6 or 7. Um, brought it back this month, um, so we're on a level playing field now, but it still happens. And, um, thinking back of a time where I hit my My lowest low was my second year. It was a new business deal with RBS. I mean, I can say the client because I don't work with them anymore, but obviously, banking client, when spec someone into senior role, it would end up being the 30 grand deal. The guy accepted, signed his contract. I was like, oh my God, the 30 grand, new business deal. It was actually my first year as a consultant, second year in recruitment.

Wow.

Everyone was like, oh my God, Rachel's amazing. And then the guy called me like the Friday before and said, oh, I've been counter-offered 3 different jobs at X place where he was, um, I'm gonna have to take it. And I was like, oh my God. And I remember crying when I got home, and it takes quite a lot to make me cry, but that, that wasn't— I said, I just can't do it. I, I can't do recruitment anymore.

And yeah, yeah.

And now I look back and I was like, oh my God, like, I was 20, 22, and I've done a 30 grand new business deal my first year. Like, now I'm thinking, like, to get it to that point, I be positive. Okay, it didn't go over, I didn't get my big payout, but I can look back on that now. So if anyone's going through similar things like that, just be happy that you got to that point. And you know, if it, if it goes in, amazing, but if it doesn't, don't be too hard on yourself because you— because only you have got that to that point for that particular—

I love that. Yeah, I love that. So it's changing the focus on not— it's changing the focus on the outcome and actually the focus on the process and the journey to get to that point is something that, well, actually I've done really well there. This is what I've learned. This is what I've done well. Like, okay, it didn't go my way this time, but that's actually a great achievement.

Yeah, exactly. It will go in. And it's like, and I've always said this to the junior guys, you think about what can I add to the business? Um, has— was there anyone else who could have made that 30 grand with that client at that point in time? It's like, no, there wasn't, because there wasn't anyone else at that point. So you have to think, this is what I— like, we wouldn't even have this opportunity if it wasn't for me. And I know that's a very kind of like, um, being quite boastful, but you have to believe in yourself in recruitment because if you don't and the negative thoughts come in, they will take over you. So you have to back yourself, um, but with also self-awareness. I think it is, it's an important balance.

Yeah, I love that. So look, I have to— before we, before we finish, I have to— I wanted to definitely go over this with you. So women in recruitment, right? Let's just, let's just talk about this, right? Yeah. So obviously you entered the recruitment industry at, yeah, an early age, um, shout out uni, these sorts of things. So I guess there's a few things that, um, I'll be interested to ask you, but whenever I've sort of had, uh, women in recruitment on this podcast, what typically seems to happen is that, like, as Rachel goes through her career, there's not as many women to look up to and go, wow, I want to get to that director spot, or where that women is I want to get to, right? Whereas for maybe like me, for example, I could join the industry and there'll be loads of men to look at and go, wow, I want, I want to replicate what they've done, right?

Yeah.

So I guess the question is, is one, how have you found being a female in recruitment and carving out your journey in, in the recruitment industry? One, how have you found that? And then two, like, from that experience, like, how do you feel that we can get more females, one, into the industry, but two, into positions like yourself where you're now a director at a business, you're involved in actually growing the business, not just putting numbers on the boards. So yeah, one, how's your experience and journey been? And two, how do you think we can actually move the needle and impact more female to get more female role models in the industry?

I've always worked in a really male-dominated environment. So strangely, I kind of feel used to it and it's really bad because it shouldn't be as male-dominated as it is. And I would love to empower other women because I think that women add so much, especially in a boardroom. And, you know, that emotional intelligence and how have I found it? I mean, I've always been surrounded by a lot of men, so you kind of adapt. I think it is. And I've been lucky, like my bosses have always been very fair. You know, it's never been a gender thing. And in some ways it's kind of helped my career being a woman because when you're in a minority, you stick out more. So when I'm pitching people, when I first started out, I was kind of a northerner female. Most of the guys are southern or the southern men. So it already made me stand out. And my best clients are all, well, all the randomly, the majority are women from Scotland. And I don't know whether that's because it was refreshing for them to have a northern lady or maybe I'm reading too much into it. But, and we get on really well now, you know, we still go out for drinks. So I think it actually benefited me because I was different to other people other recruiters out there.

So you took a positive disposition on it again, instead of viewing it as a disadvantage, used it actually as an advantage.

Yeah, definitely. I think sometimes it's better to be in the minority for some things because it means that you can, that you are different. And, um, I don't know whether it was that having a female, for some people it might be more comforting or trusting or whatever it is, I don't know. But I actually quite enjoyed that. And the more you move upwards, it is that there's hardly— I couldn't say a woman in my vertical market at the same level as me that I've ever been on a PSL with or met for a client meeting or anyone like that. And they've all been men. And it's just that you kind of accept. But thinking about it, it is strange, and it's something that I don't understand why, because the female crews we have in our team, they're all great. Um, I don't understand why it is so male-dominated, to be honest with you.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, no idea. But I think the important thing is, is that we're talking about, you know, and there's conversations as to why is this, what What can companies, what can guys do more to make it more inclusive, make it more welcoming for females? So I guess, I don't know, what do you have any thoughts on? Like, how can we encourage more sort of women and diverse people into the recruitment industry?

I don't know if it's about encouraging them into the industry. I think it's about sustaining them and making sure they stay within the industry and don't leave. Yeah, like, our intake recently has been very female dominated, um, and we don't judge on gender, it's just the best person to get the job. And it just so happens that 3 out of the 4 of them have been women. So why are they coming in at this level?

Why?

And why— but why are they not filtering up to the top? I think that's my, my main question. Is it the fact that there's men, men at the top that don't have, don't understand how to communicate with women as well, know how to make— I mean, not in my case, obviously, because I'm where I am, but within other companies, is it a bit of a boys' club? Are women not viewed as equals in some way? Are they commented about in the office? There's so many things. Is it the work culture that drives them out? Is it the job that drives them out? Is it lack of support? Is it lack of female role models? That's the big question for me, is why do we have so many people come in entry and then they don't progress upwards.

Yeah, yeah, that's a really great point. So I guess, who, who was your role model then? Did you have a role model? Like, how, how do you feel— how do you feel like— you said there that you sort of actually like embraced that you were in the minority, and, and that's something that you tried to use in a positive way. But like, who was your role model, and how did you make sure that you sustained your career and pushed through and, and got to where you wanted to?

Um, I'm not very big on role models. Um, okay. I think there are people in this life that you meet that you're inspired by and you want to make proud and you want to strive to do the best for them. There isn't one particular person I was in awe of, I want to progress upwards, maybe because there wasn't any women at that level, perhaps. But I've been inspired by a lot of individuals and obviously, um, my current bosses, Tom and Andy, who have obviously been there throughout my career. They're the ones that have spurred me on. You know, I want to do deals to make them proud. I want to do well to make them proud. I want to prove to them that I'm the best at what I do. So I think it's been more taking inspiration from people more senior than me and wanting to do the best to make them proud of me. Obviously, money is a motivator, but for me it's about doing a good job and cross-venture. It's about us doing a good job for our clients and being the best we can be, and then the rest kind of comes, comes along with it. Um, so no particular role model, but there are people who have inspired me along the way, of course.

Love that. Okay, I've got 5 final questions for you.

Okay, go for it. Okay.

Yeah, so first one, if, if you could change the industry, what would you improve?

Um, I don't think this is answering the question, but what I would like to change is people's perception of the recruitment industry. So I'm not sure this answers the question exactly, but I think we get a lot of stick. I don't think people realize what we do in the background sometimes to get these deals in, um, or to get candidates to start. Um, so I, I we've got very negative— I think we still do. People have very— I see posts on LinkedIn, I saw one today, I wanted to write something and obviously I didn't. Um, but I think I would like to change the way the industry is viewed from an external perspective, because I think there's a lot of good recruiters out there, and I think that people don't realize exactly the stress we go through to make sure people get, get the job. So I would like to change the perception on recruitment I love that.

Um, second question: best ever day in recruitment. Describe it. Do you remember it?

Uh, just about remember it. Um, it was, I think it was 2018. The sun was shining. Um, we'd had a good month, but it'd been one of those weeks when we thought the deals were going to come in and they hadn't. So it was Friday lunchtime, and then, um, Andy said, right, let's, let's, let's go out for lunch. Like, we've had a good, good month. Let's go and just go and chill out. Really nice day. Went out to our favorite tapas bar in Borough Market, Brindisa, sat out there having a glass of rosé, living the life. And then suddenly all these deals came in as we had a drink or two. So I whacked the laptop out. We were 4 of us working on one laptop, people going down the streets to— I think we must have done about 10 or 12 deals just sat out there, you know, closing deals whilst eating your patatas bravas out in the sun. It was just one of those great days where you look back on and think, do you know what, when recruitment's good, it's the best job ever. And days like that help you get through the bad days. We all have bad days. It's about resilience and remembering those good times, but That was a particularly enjoyable day.

Fun memory. Yeah, love that. Yeah. Next question is, so if you could go back and speak to 21-year-old Rachel, just left university, entered the recruitment industry, what would you say to her?

Don't be so reactionary. Pick your battles. I think that's something that I've learned over the years. I think it can be a really stressful environment, and when you're in a competitive environment as well, you may react in certain ways that you're not particularly proud of. So I would probably say, yeah, pick your battles, try and be the best version of yourself when things are going wrong, you know, don't take it to heart so much. No one's perfect. I think that's the thing with me. I'm always kind of striving for perfection in my job, and when something goes wrong, I find it sometimes quite hard to accept. What have I done now? And I think it's like, no one's perfect. Pick your battles and, and, and just, just support everyone around you, basically, because I think we're all in it together. We all need help. Help each other.

Love that. Uh, a bit of a fun one, this one. What, what did you spend your first biggest commission paycheck on?

Oh, it doesn't even sound that big now because it's back in 2009, but, um, it was an app, one of those new— what was it? The white Apple compute laptops. What are they called?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember them. Yeah, sorry.

Yeah, yeah, because I've not had them for ages, but the white one If you remember the white notebooks, I remember walking down to Eastworld in Old Kent Road, I think my commission just come in and getting that.

Absolutely buzzing.

Yeah.

Love that. Right, final question. What's the ultimate goal for your recruitment career?

Oh, that's a good one. Ultimate goal. Um, I guess to build a really successful business and, and to, to make a lot of money from it, as fun as that sounds. I mean, I kind of have, I have a vision in mind of where I'd like to be and like how to get there, and that would be via, I guess, growing continually to, to grow eventually and just, just being as profitable and as successful as possible.

Rachel, I think you've been on a great journey. It's definitely inspiring. And yeah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Thanks for having me. It's been great.