Realities of Startup Life: Lessons Learned from a £500K First Year with Emma & Louise, Esto Search

Emma Louise, welcome to the pod.

Hello, I'm excited to be here.

Thank you so much for joining me. I was just saying that it's been a little while since, one, I've had two people on the pod, so looking forward to going through this with both of you. And also always enjoy talking to recruitment entrepreneurs who have got through this first year. Mm, you made it. You've just recently had your first year milestone in business.

We have.

So obviously, massive congrats on that. And today we're gonna really get into the detail really on what did we learn in this first year, what really worked, what were some of the lessons that we had to learn the hard way, what have been some of the challenges, and I'm sure we're going to discuss plenty of other things as well. So that's our goal. To give everyone some immediate context, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but both of you actually previously worked together. Yeah, a business called Salt. Yeah. Uh, Emma, we met a while ago when you was at Salt. You've been on the podcast, so you worked at Salt for like over a decade.

Yeah.

Louise, you didn't work at Salt for over a decade, but been in recruitment for a good amount of time, right? What was—

yeah, yeah, yeah, been in recruitment for about 7 years.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, worked with Emma for 3, for free.

Awesome. So both sort of met each other there, and then, uh, February last year was the launch, or no? Yeah, of the business, right?

Second week of February, 13th of February.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, it's literally—

yeah, February was the milestone. So launch your own business— I don't want to butcher this— esto, right? Esto Search or just Esto?

Esto Search.

Esto Search.

We don't even know the name.

Yeah, okay, so we launched that business. Your world, which we're going to get into, is like tech sales, go-to-market. Yeah, go-to-market. Okay, cool. So yeah, there's different things that can go into that. So some of the— let's give everyone the highlight reel. So first year, closing out the year on $506K billings between both of you, which is absolutely awesome.

Thank you.

75% of placements were female.

75% were female, yeah, which is really cool stat.

Something also worth mentioning is like you definitely haven't been like local in terms of your business. Like you shared with me that you've done placements internationally from, from the, from the get-go.

Yeah.

So we'll talk about that. Average deal size, 23, 23,300.

Yeah.

Which I think is really, uh, solid. And it's all been perm.

Yeah.

So there's some of the— sorry to sort of whittle down this first year, just a few bullet points. Yeah, there's some of the key bits. So why don't we just start from like the beginning? I think I was telling you before we started this, there'll be a lot of people that listen to this show that maybe consider starting their own business, may never get there, may get there and then hate it. So I think whenever we can really dive into what are the actual realities of going from being an employee, having a real long amount of time being an employed recruiter to then launch your own business. What are the actual realities of like what is actually really difficult, what isn't? It's really helpful for people. So why don't we just start with, I think what often people get caught up on— Emma, I'll direct this with you. I don't know how this sort of played out, but people can spend a lot of time on like the name. So just tell us a bit there in terms of the story there. When you was thinking about the name of the business, what was front of mind? Did you want something that did help you stand out? I don't know, tell us a bit about the name process because people do get caught up on this.

Yeah, and I think the name's really important as well because there's so many recruitment companies and I think it's one way to kind of differentiate yourself and to have a really strong brand. So for us, I would say like 70 to 80% of the calls we have, one of the first things people say to us is, oh my gosh, we love your brand. So I think it is really important to spend a lot of time like thinking about it. And we were just looking on the way here at our like WhatsApp chat and we were trying to figure out when we actually said the word esto for the first time. So I think it was around sort of September last year, wasn't it?

There was some crackers in there as well, wasn't there?

What did you nearly call it?

We were Googling like lions. Lioness. Yeah, honestly, there was absolutely all sorts. So yeah, we would, but I think we were, my sister's a designer, so she kind of like said to us, look, Emma, stop thinking about recruitment and start thinking about you. How do you wanna come across? How does your brand wanna come across? This isn't about being a recruitment company. This is about you and, you know, your business. And for us, you know, working in recruitment for a long period of time, something that always kind of stuck with us is we did things how we wanted to do it. And I was really passionate about when I was managing people, I'd always say, be authentic, be yourself. Don't kind of like do what everyone else is doing. If someone's really good on the phone, go on the phone. If you're better on email, go on email. Like, find what you're comfortable doing and then excel in it. So being you and being authentic was something that stuck really strongly with both of us, and we really wanted it to come across in the name. So we just sort of Googled "be you," you know, kind of— There's a lot of stuff being thrown around in Latin.

Yeah, it is very common to get to Latin.

Love a bit of Latin. I think there was a bit of Hebrew in there as well.

There was another name as well, wasn't there? And then we looked and it was actually gone on Companies House. I can't remember.

So was that your process out of interest? Because again, was you like, I like that name, let's look at Companies House. Do people have that? Is there companies called that already?

Yeah, yeah. So it was more start off with what do we want the brand to represent? We want to talk about being authentic. We want to talk about being yourself. That was how we wanted to lead. And then it was kind of trying to find words that linked to that. And then esto just popped up and we were like, esto, esto, esto.

So what does it mean?

It means be you.

Be you. Yeah. In what, in Latin?

In Latin. Yeah. Yeah. So, and it just stuck. It just felt right.

It's very brandable, isn't it?

It's just like a couple of letters.

Yeah, we wanted something that was disassociated with recruitment. We didn't want something that was like, oh, that's definitely recruitment. We wanted something that resonated with the brands that we recruit for and something that could stand out to them tech businesses as well, not just something that was generic and kind of like recruity, I guess.

And also, I think so much of what we do in terms of the candidates and the clients that we place you know, they're going to have multiple opportunities on the go. And I say to candidates, and always have done, where do you feel most comfortable? Where can you be yourself? And it's so true that I think that is sometimes you might have two identical offers and someone will take a job where they can genuinely be themselves and feel comfortable. So it just kind of all sort of linked together and just—

I do think your sister gave you really good advice there, like, rather than— because I think what can first happen, or where people can find themselves, is like they're first trying to— they're trying to just think of like that memorable, cool, brandable name. But actually, your sister was like, hang on a minute, take a step back and be like, what is it that you want to be known for? Yeah, these things. And then go from there. Because you can tell now, like, with that, uh, being the name, it— you're just saying that it goes hand in hand with everything. Yeah, that you do it.

Exactly.

You can really talk about passionately, and it sort of is intertwined with like how we deal with candidates, how we pitch ourselves to clients. So I think that's a smart way to think about it. Like, if you're ever considering starting on your own or you get too caught up in this, like, take a bit of a step back and be like, actually, like, this is an opportunity for us to just be ourselves. Like, we're starting this entrepreneurial journey. When else can you just try things and really be yourself? Yeah, I think that's one of the cool things. Like, no one's gonna— no manager's gonna be like, nah, Emma, that name's silly.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As well, like, when it felt right. Yeah, I think to start with, I wanted to be called like Elevate Recruitment, like motivate your life, and it's just like, it's too cheesy. It doesn't— it doesn't— it has to sit with you and be, you know, feel good with, you know, inside you.

For sure. What might be worth also mentioning, I should have said this in the intro, but both of you've taken the, the route of like self-funding this, right? Like you haven't taken any external investment. And I've got here, both had a massive 5K. People launch things with, with less, with more, but you both had 5K in the pot.

Yeah. Godsend. Good dads.

Yeah. And you just got on the property ladder. Yeah, exactly. Add that in the mix.

Exactly. It was a scary time. I was thinking, right, this is going to pay for 2 months. So technically we've got a buffer, maybe with a little loan from my dad. How can I pay my mortgage on month 3? But we got there in the end, luckily.

So you were just saying before this, so it basically took you about— people always want to hear like, how long did it take to get— because you always remember that first invoice getting paid. Basically that happened What, within the first 3 months?

Yes. Yeah, so we think we'd done our first deal in March. We were thinking, looking on the train, weren't we, when we actually done it? So we actually got paid in March, which was a very exciting time, I think. I think I was actually in the supermarket at the time and you called me and you were like, look at the bank! And we were literally just like screaming.

It's unreal, wasn't it?

It was so good.

Everything's just so exciting. Like, everything feels like a first time in recruitment. It was like the first deal we'd ever done. Like, it was just amazing.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we booked flights to Dubai. We thought we deserve a little bit of downtime, a bit of a break. We've been working solidly for a whole month.

We need to go on holiday.

Let's think a bit more about this beginning bit. On that, what, when, how long did you think you both gave yourself? Did you speak about that? It was like, right, like with this amount of money, with this sort of little nest that we have, potential support if we needed it, we should be fine for 3 months, 4 months. How do you think? I think that is important. People ask about that. What should be a good healthy financial runway?

To be honest, you know, when I was sort of growing up and always thinking in the future, one day I'll have my own recruitment company, in my head I thought I'm gonna need at least £50,000, 'cause I'm gonna need 6 months to live off and then a buffer. And the way that we did it, because we just kind of rolled with it and it was actually quite a fast decision once we decided to do it, we didn't have that money. So we just had to make the best of what we had. And it was kind of like, we're doing this now, We're gonna roll with it. We're gonna have to make it work. We're gonna have to get our heads down and do a deal. So it was kind of, because it happened so quickly, we put probably more pressure on ourselves. But I think that might be good in a way because I think if we had £50K in the bank, who knows, we might not have had that fear inside of us. Yeah. That kind of drove us to do those placements so quickly.

Because I remember as well speaking to a couple of people that had set up their own businesses and they were like, my one piece of advice is that you need 6 months to cover yourself. Yeah. That's normally what people say.

Yeah.

So we were like, okay, so we've got half that amount of time. We're going against everyone else. Everyone's advice and we're just gonna go for it. Yeah, I think you're right. It was like sink or swim and we had to get some cash. We had to pay our mortgages.

Yeah, I think also what you need to think about as well is if you're in a job doing recruitment right now, if you blank for 6 months, I mean, I'm not being funny, but you're probably gonna get sacked.

Or even probably blank for 3 months.

The majority of people who think I'm good enough to take this step probably aren't going to blank for 3 months.

They should back themselves, shouldn't they?

You should back yourself because if you were, like, maybe if you were gonna blank 6 months, I would say maybe not starting a recruitment company is the right thing for you to do.

I think about also like being honest with yourself, like we were saying, weren't we? Like being honest, can— are you a 360 recruiter? Or if not, if you're partnering with someone that is on the flip side to that, you need to be able to both have your strengths. Like if you can't bring in business, the other person that you partner with needs to be able to. But I think lucky for us, we both were quite confident that we could be full 360 recruiters. And that we could bring in our jobs and fill them. So I think it is just about having an honest conversation with yourself and be like, because ultimately if you're working at a company, it's your own desk anyway. You're technically running your own business within a bigger company, just the comfort of the base salary and the brand. Whereas if you can kind of establish the brand and find comfort in taking that step, ultimately you can do your job, you can do recruitments, you can do it by yourself.

Yeah, either, like, no one's gonna come and save you, are they? Like, no, on this, like, you've got to be honest with yourself for sure.

Yeah.

If you don't have that self-awareness, exactly, see how far you go. Yeah, like, yeah, like, no one's, like I said, no one's gonna come and say, and you can't just kid yourself.

Like, exactly.

Yeah.

So, and we're gonna touch on that because I do think I'm, I'm really with you on what one of the most important skills is, like, the sales side. Unless maybe you're launching a business who you're— one of you is an absolute world-class salesperson, that's world-class at delivery. If it is just you That is one of the most important skills that you've got to be— you've got to really back yourself in on this, for sure.

Definitely.

Let's still talk about this beginning period. I think something that builds on the brand piece, but something that people really spend a lot of time on, I think rightly so, is what's going to be our point of difference. Like, it's so competitive, you've already said that, Emma, and it's like, how are we going to be different? So maybe, Louise, I'll come to you on this. Like, how, how do you think about that at the beginning? You might have continued to sort of figure that out over the this year, but I do think it's a fair thing to think about. What is— what are our unique selling points? What are— how are we actually going to be different? Because I do think when you really boil it down, if you're delivering a great recruitment service, that's going to look fairly similar for most people.

Yeah, yeah.

But what are the points of differences? It might be your brand and what you stand for and what you're doing. But where, where did you land with this?

I think from us, even from the get-go I hadn't seen two, um, founders being— two businesses, sorry, a business being founded by women. That was their main point of difference. I think ultimately being two females in a really male-dominated space and recruiting within that space, often working with male hiring managers, just having that piece to be able to push the diversity piece. I think like Emma said, 75% of our placements were female. But that just happened by chance. I think it's because females come to females, so that kind of naturally became a point of difference. That wasn't something that we were like, we're only going to place females. I think it just naturally, women kind of flock, and that's how that piece progressed. And then in terms of our branding as well, like, we wanted to be bright, fun, different, not just kind of like your typical recruitment company. And like I said before, really mirroring the brands and the tech businesses that we recruit for. I think that was always going to be a point of difference to be able to be quite vibrant in quite— can be quite like a dull market, I guess. Um, and yeah, I think that's kind of— I mean, we've naturally trailed down the diversity piece, haven't we? And kind of that's been a massive point of difference.

But that does make sense. I know you— I do appreciate being honest around that. Like, it just sort of organically happened.

Yeah, we never intentionally did winning.

That makes sense.

Like, why—

like, you're going to use what you have at your disposal. Why would you not leverage that?

We never set out and we're like, we're going to do groundbreaking stuff and this is going to change the world. Like, ultimately, recruitment is recruitment. It's placing people at businesses. But we just wanted to do it with our authentic flair, make people feel comfortable, make people like they can feel, you know, be themselves in businesses. Because ultimately, someone could thrive at one business, but someone could fail at the same business just due to their values, their personality type. Like, it's not just about the skill set, it's about their values and aspirations as well. And I think that's one thing that we really focus on.

For sure. Emma, let me come to you on this. Like, you worked at a reputable brand, big brand, for a decade. I can't remember when we last sat down, like, what your experience or journey was with, like, personal branding, or how you was, like, building your own brand within that business. But have you been— because this is what I want to highlight to people— like, if you're not leveraging what you're talking about there, your brand being different, and you're an entrepreneur, you're a small business, like, that's one of the best things that you can leverage. And yeah, What I think people underestimate is like how much that can help you and like how much an impact that can have. So my question for you, Emma, is like, have you been surprised how actually having this sort of brand-led approach, taking that seriously, really thinking about it, how much that has actually directly impacted you winning, uh, briefs and working with companies? How has that impacted things?

I mean, 100%, like my one piece of advice to any recruiter regardless of what company you're at is work on your personal brand because that is what will follow you. When you leave your agency, you're still you. And funnily enough, our first placement was from a guy who I've known for years, uh, never worked with him in a recruitment way. He's based in the US, and he just completely randomly messaged me on LinkedIn saying, hey, I remember I saw a video, um, 6 months ago that you did about hiring females. I really need to hire a female, can we talk? And we got that— I got that message on like in the middle of Jan or something when I'd handed my notice in, and I was like, what the hell? So that was from something I'd done so far, like before I was even thinking of leaving, and he had remembered me. And I think that's what's so important is, yes, you work for your company, but you're still you. And, you know, so many of our— we're really fortunate that we've had a lot of inbound stuff, and it has been completely off the back of not just the brand of Esto, but the brand of us as individuals. And I think that's really, really important to I think people feel like they know you more, like they kind of feel like they know you as a person. So, you know, again, it's that kind of human element. You don't have to cold call someone and be like, I'm Emma, blah blah blah blah blah. It's already there. Um, so yeah, our first placement was from, from, from a video that I did ages ago. And I think, you know, majority of stuff that we've had, like we do a lot of new business, like taking candidates to market, but they, you know, the response is so much warmer because if you go on our LinkedIn, there's so much content there. So yeah, I think it's just so important to, to build on that personal brand. I think it's probably the number one thing that you could do.

Yeah, I think it's especially when you then go on this entrepreneurial path, like it's one of your biggest, uh, assets, 100%, especially when you're a small business. Like, I, I don't know how both of you feel about this, but okay, I might really resonate with your brand and your company, but if I was describing working with your business, I'm probably going to say like, yeah, I love working with Louise, she's great. Or like, they're probably going to end up talking about you as people, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, definitely.

Like, when— especially when you're small, that, that's all you got. Like, that's one of your biggest selling points. And if you can get that across and, uh, communicate that to more people, it's gonna be really impactful. Something that I've observed, Louise, I don't know how it was for you on the personal branding front, but I'm interested to hear what you think about this. I've consistently found, not all the time but most of the time, if I was to look at your LinkedIn pre-launching your business, I'm probably gonna see less content than I do now.

Yeah, 100%. When you would—

yeah, yeah. So I'm just like, I see that a lot. So like, I'm just interested to hear like, what was— I don't know, like, what was holding you back maybe in an employed environment to really leaning into it? Because I do see that quite a lot, particularly with new— yeah, first-time founders. It's like I just see them absolutely going on a content game. Not everyone, but like, it's just like a very stark comparison.

Yeah, yeah, of course. I think it comes down to ultimately something that you're passionate about, because if someone's telling you to keep doing something, I don't know about you, but it makes me kind of go the opposite. Like, if your manager's going, you need to post, you need to post, you need to do 3 times a week, blah, blah, blah, blah, I go into retract mode. Whereas it's when it's something that you've built and you spent a lot of time building the brand, building the story behind it, why would you not want to share that? It just makes it for me a lot easier. And it doesn't feel like routine or something that I should be doing. Obviously you want to grow your business, you want people to know who you are, so it's easier to get behind when it's something that you've built. That's kind of my take on it, that's why I find. But, um, yeah, and it's also like the adverse effect, isn't it? Someone saying you need to do this and you're like, no.

Yeah, no, yeah, I definitely— yeah, I've just always noticed that.

But it does make sense, it's just gonna have— it's ultimately got your best interests, isn't it, in mind.

Maybe it's as well because people feel like they have more freedom. Like if it's your own company, you can't really go wrong, no one's gonna tell off if you said something wrong, whereas maybe some people who work in larger companies might feel, oh, you know, can I say that, or what are people going to think of me? Whereas I guess you kind of lose that fear, don't you?

It's come back to like being yourself, people.

Yeah, yeah. And also like trying to fit into someone else's brand. If it's not something that you're passionate about, then how do you get behind it? And sometimes it's hard to portray that on LinkedIn. Just feels a bit robotic sometimes, I think, from people, and probably past from myself as well, for sure.

So Louise, I'm gonna come back to you on this, like, let— because I definitely resonate with this. And again, this has been another observation. Let's just talk about some of the, like, challenges or some of the things that both of you have worked through, which is what I've often found is there's this sort of period of, like, excitement.

Yeah.

When you first launch a business, right? We're talking about this first year. There's this— I don't— it might be the first 2 months, maybe the first 3 months, but there's a period where you launch your business, you let everyone know about it on LinkedIn, you're getting just this constant dopamine hit because they're like, oh my God, Louise, well done, like, yeah, yeah, like congrats. You're getting all these messages from people, you're like, oh wow, yeah, like people care. And then slowly but surely, less and less people care in the sense of like you're not getting those messages every day going, hey Louise, congrats, like well done. Yeah, it's like it comes just slowly but surely, you're like, right, okay. Yeah, this is on me. Like, like, I've got to make shit happen.

Yeah.

And I've got written down here, like, initial excitement followed by self-doubt and panic. And I think a lot of people will resonate with that. So let's just talk about that, because I do think, yeah, like, you can really get brought in in that early period, and it's like, really, yeah, maybe crunch time, or there's this period where it's like, actually, yeah, no, it's just down to me now.

Like, this is the reality. 100%.

Yeah, talk to us about your experience with that.

I think, yeah, you're right, because it's all exciting, you know, you're sat in your bedroom, we're discussing branding, we're on Zoom, we're like, this is really cool, we're building a website, we're doing all this fun stuff. And then, like you say, the dust settles and reality kicks in, and you're naturally going to have that self-doubt. I think that's where it's been amazing to be able to build a business with someone like Emma, because we really do pick each other up when that's the case. Like, We always joke and say we're in a different cycle of panic mode. I'll be in panic mode and she'll be like, "What are you panicking about?" And then vice versa. So I think that highlights the importance of needing a really good, solid partner and someone that's not just, you know, someone that's not just in a business sense that can pick you up, someone that can personally, you can level with and also have a good time with. But I think, yeah, there definitely does a massive overwhelming wave of self-doubt does hit you because you're like, shit, I actually need to make money and pay my bills. Because ultimately when you're at a company, you've always got the security of your base salary, whereas we have to pay our own base salary now. And, you know, sometimes that is scary. Like, you know, it's like, feels very adult and very grown up. Like, we've got to do this, otherwise shit's gonna hit the fan. But, um, I think like going back to the basics and realizing, like I say, like, you can do your job.

Yeah.

And ultimately, I think a lot of self-doubt comes from Perhaps, like, we had a couple of times at the start where we had a couple of things go wrong, um, in terms of, like, not go wrong, like, we did everything that we could control.

Normal recruitment setup.

Yeah, like, you can only control the controllables, but getting bogged down in stuff where, you know, things just don't go your way, which happens all the time in recruitment, like, you've got to be resilient, but I think that's when you can kind of be like, can I do this? Like, you know, if deals are not happening and you're really trying you know, you need to pick yourself back up. But yeah, Emma's been a massive help with that.

Nice, you helped each other, yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

I think, yeah, I think it's just worth maybe noting, because I speak to someone else about this recently, but one, like, in those early periods, maybe try and— if you listen to this, like, try and remember to be grounded. Like, it's great that people are being your biggest cheerleaders and stuff, but remember that in order for this to be successful and achieve the things that you want to, it's going to come down to doing the things that matter every day, and it's going to be the boring stuff, doing it really well every day. 100%. But then I was just going to ask you, because this is what I speak to another business owner about recently, have you found that self-doubt ever goes away over the last 12 months? Because I definitely don't feel like it does.

No, it hasn't gone away over 12 years. Yeah, exactly.

You're always going to feel like you could be doing more and you could be doing better, and you know, but ultimately things aren't going to go your way the whole time, and it's just about building a bit of a resilience.

Yeah.

How you cope with that. And I think like, you know, the more that we stay positive about the things and kind of don't get bogged down in the stuff that's going wrong, the easier it is to then next time kind of build a bit of resilience to come past that when something happens again similar.

Yeah, I think you do have to, we're getting better at doing it, you have to detach emotionally from the outcome of the deal.

100%.

So for us, as long as you know you've done everything you can, you've done like all under your power to make sure that, you know, it's all right, if it goes in or it goes, doesn't go in, you shouldn't really either over-celebrate or kick yourself. All you can do is the best that you can do. And that's why when we've done deals, we're obviously happy, but we're not like, yeah, come on. And then when we've lost deals, we're not like, we're the worst recruiters in the world. We're like, we've done the same thing. Because, you know, ultimately you can only control so much. And I think it is just trying to take the emotion out of every single placement you do.

Yeah.

And just do the fundamentals, send the CVs, Prep them, you know, go over everything as much as you can, understand who else they're talking to, make sure that you've got complete control over it. And then I guess you don't have as many highs and lows.

Yeah.

Which is what we try and do, I think, now.

And also I feel like you only kick yourself if you know that you could have done more.

Yeah.

So that's when you probably think, you know, oh my God, I'm never going to do a deal ever again. Because you know ultimately that you've probably let something slip throughout the way. So as long as you're doing everything, going back to basics, like Em said, you can only control the controllables.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I do think I'm like, yeah, like 4 or 5 years in now on this sort of entrepreneurial journey myself, and it's like just a consistent learning journey. Like, yeah, that's why I also really enjoy it because I just love my own personal development. It's just a consistent 100% learning, which I really enjoy. Some days I hate it, but it's also like I'm just learning. Like, this is what I'm doing, I don't have all the answers, and you just got to keep going.

Yeah, exactly.

Emma, share with us— I've got written here, this all goes into it— let's, let's hear some stories on some challenges, right? I've got here— feel free to share whatever. I know you shared one before we started this, but I got Emma: biggest challenge was dealing with respect from clients. Yeah, so give us some instances, some stories.

So we had, um, we had a client who— I won't say who.

No, of course you don't need to do that.

You know who you are. You know we hate you. We have this one client, uh, we have this client and, um, So we did the briefing, went away. They were looking for a pre-sales engineer. So blah, blah, blah, did a market map, went back and spoke to them. Their budget was about $80K. We said, look, for the person that you want, you're gonna need to be paying $110K, $120K. They wanted someone senior, they wanted someone from a very specific tech background. So, and the kind of, the way that they looked at us was like we were speaking a different language. And you know, they were like, well, you know, we've spoken to this agency and they've said it's fine. And we've spoken to this agency and they've said it's fine. And you know, we said, okay, completely appreciate that, but we know this market inside out and that you're not going to get what you're looking for. So anyway, went away, did the search, and then they just—

you still did the search?

Yeah, we still—

we did the search at the level they wanted and said, this is what you can get for the money you want, or this is what you can get for the money that we think you should pay. So we actually did two searches.

Either way, we were really happy with that.

Either way, we worked really hard that week. Yeah. And do you know what, we— it was quite funny actually when we look back on it, because didn't we both like high-five each other?

We were like, we've smashed this out the park, they're going to be We were really proud of the shortlist that we put together, but ultimately, and then the complete opposite happened.

Okay, what happened?

They went on the call and the man actually said to us, he said, do you want some feedback? We said yeah. He said, this is the worst list I've ever seen.

I genuinely thought the words would come out like, this is amazing, and he went, this is not good.

Yeah, it was, yeah.

The worst shortlist I've ever seen.

No, he didn't say that. He said, this is terrible. And we were just completely shocked.

Did he say why?

He just said, the candidates are too expensive, the ones that are good, and the ones that are rubbish are too— not good enough. The ones that are cheap aren't good enough. Yeah, so we're like, what can we do? Anyway, then they ghosted us, which was lovely.

Um, post what? Post what? You presented the shortlist?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, we'll come back to you.

We were trying to push for them to speak to them anyway, regardless.

Like, yeah, so the candidates that we got that were more— that were more senior, that were great, then started getting messages from another recruitment company, a much larger, more established recruitment company, offering the job to them at their salary. So they were like, hi, we're working with X, looking for a pre-sales engineer, $120K base.

And they told you this?

Yeah. And all our candidates started calling us being like, Emma, you know, I'm getting a message from this other agency, they're offering the job now, it's a higher salary. And we were like, what? So anyway, we were like, this is ridiculous. Um, went back to the company and they basically said, oh yeah, we did. Well, 'You know, we didn't take your advice first of all, but then we went to this other agency. They told us it is more senior, so yeah, we're going to work with them at the more senior rate.' And we're like, 'What?' On the salary that they demanded. But then they had to put our candidates through the process through us anyway because we'd obviously sent them first. So it was just one of those things where I thought, I wonder if we were older, more established, larger, giving that feedback to those founders, would they have maybe listened to it and taken it more seriously rather than us? A few months in, you know, females as well, and, you know, maybe they didn't necessarily take that information on board because they obviously did take it on board from someone else. So I think it's— yeah, that was— we did feel like maybe they didn't trust us or respect our opinion. But then, you know, have you had more—

like, because I think that was the follow-up bullet point on this, like, and I know smaller recruitment agencies, if it's just you or you and one other, like, that can be— I don't know if— I don't— you can tell me, like, is is it a limiting belief that we're— it's more challenging for us because the perception of us is we're a small agency? I don't know, is that a limiting belief, or is that some instances where that does play out?

I think that— I think that's a limiting belief, because to be honest, I think 9 times out of 10, a lot of the clients don't even really do their— like, them— they don't really do much research into the company. A lot of— honestly, a lot of the time when I've gone on calls, they're like, oh, how's it going at Salt? I'm like, I've started a new company a year ago, thanks for having a look. Yeah.

So I think, you know, it's how you come across.

I think it's about having the belief in yourself. Um, you know, we've had amazing pitches with— we've got new clients we've never worked before and with some really, um, like senior and impressive CEOs, and they've loved us from the word go. So maybe it's just that person didn't like us for whatever reason. Um, but yeah, I do think it is a limiting belief because also, if you think about it, you could have a really large agency, 20 people, but a lot of those, you know, people that are actually filling your roles are going to have like 2, 3 years experience, and versus with us, you know, you actually have more combined experience because Louise and I often work on roles together. So we'll get one job and we'll both do it at the same time to make sure we're completely covering the market. So if you think of it that way, you're actually getting more experience on your jobs than if you were to go to maybe another agency.

Just to put the cherry on top of the cake on this thought, I really love that you said, yeah, it is actually probably more limiting belief than the actual reality of it, which is great for people to hear. 'Not bothered who they are,' but have you got good sort of, I guess, evidence on that in terms of where, you know, you came up against an agency that is more established? Yeah, on paper would be like, yeah, obviously you go the well-established one, but you've, you've won that search.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, so I'm not bothered who, but like, you've, you've, you've experienced that as well, the other side, right? You've actually won over competitors.

Because I think the thing is as well, we care so much about the job that we do, uh, you know, it's not just about because we need to pay our bills, it's because I genuinely don't want anyone in the market to say a bad word about Esto. So if we get a role, I'm going to be working that role till 1 in the morning until I find you the perfect person. Uh, versus I think if you're working with a larger agency, yes, you're going to have people that care, but does that person really care if then they've got a call at 7, they're like, you know, let's go to the pub? They're going to put the laptop down. They're not going to— whereas for me, I will stay until that search is done. And I think you do get a different kind of service when you work directly with a small agency, and especially when you're working with, like, a founder-led agency where the founders are very much involved, because that is, you know, it's our soul, it's our heart, it's everything. So, you know, we will do anything until that role's finished. And I think that's where we've beat people, is because they probably thought, this is a bit hard, I'm going to give up, whereas we wouldn't.

I think also on the flip side to that though, it's really important, which I think we have learned the hard way, is being honest on where we can commit and really kind of sticking to our values and and knowing that we're going to be able to do a good job on a search. Because I think there was a couple of instances at the beginning where we put our heart and soul into it, and ultimately, really, now we probably would have turned down that business. We wouldn't have worked it because we were getting bad feedback from the market, from people that had previously worked there, um, and their kind of values and morals didn't align with what we were trying to push.

Yeah.

And we spent a lot of time at the early days kind of working on stuff that we wouldn't have. Yeah, we just really wanted to say no, didn't we? Yeah.

Let's talk about that because I think that is also one the challenges, probably continuously, that I hear when I speak to like either solopreneurs or it's them and another founder like both of you, where it hits different to say no to 100% a job where you're like, yeah, we— that money could end up in our bank account. So tell us a bit more about that. Like, how have you— you've obviously had to learn it by doing some of those searches and going, you know what, actually probably shouldn't have worked that, or probably shouldn't have committed time. I think you've got to learn. I think it is one of those lessons where you've got to go through it to learn that lesson, probably. But then how have you— how do you now think about that in terms of like saying no to business? Because that is important.

Yeah, definitely. I think, I think it comes down to, yeah, circumstances. I mean, for us as well, like, we much prefer to work on a contingent basis rather than, yeah, commit to retainers as well. I think that's where we kind of— we gave the retainers back.

Yeah, which was really hard to do considering that was actually money.

We didn't have any money at that point.

We hadn't been paid.

And they were offering us £5,000 upfront immediately. And that was really hard to turn down.

Yeah. So we said yes. And then we started doing the search and within about 2 weeks we realised every candidate that we'd spoken to said, I will never work at that company. Loads of people want to leave. It's not a nice place to work. And we were like, for God's sake, like, we really need this cash. And as it went on, we just, we had to really have that hard conversation with ourselves and say, do we want to do a placement a company that we know has this bad reputation. And even though it meant giving that money back, we just knew it wasn't the right thing to do. And exactly, I think as well, when you're working on stuff, a lot of the thing we say to each other is, could we spend our time just trying to find something else and trying to find something fresh? Because the amount of time you're working on something— and I think it's different to when I was working, you know, in an agency, because because sometimes you just need to fill your day with something to do. You're like, oh shit, what am I gonna do now?

And also you need the numbers for your stats.

I think that's like, you say yes, don't you?

Because you want another job on the system and you're working it. But actually now looking back, probably 50% of the stuff that I worked at, I wouldn't work now.

Really?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, probably as high as that. You just think, I need to look busy. I need people to think that I'm doing shit and I'm gonna work this job till the cows come home just so I can put CVs on the system.

The thing that's highlighted here, and I'm always, thinking about this in my small businesses. It's back to your point earlier, like, Emma, like, yeah, you could take a call at 7 PM, right? But like, your most valuable asset at this stage, and as, as it continues to stay, you too, whatever, is, is time.

100%, right?

And that can go both ways. It can go the wrong way in terms of like, shit, we've just spent 8 hours today on a working a job trying to promote a company that actually we probably know we shouldn't.

Yeah.

But the descent on the competitive advantage we have is I'm gonna make that 8 PM call because it's my fucking business. I'm gonna make it happen, right? So that, that's like the edges that you can have on employees because not everyone's going to be willing to do that. But is it— is this other side where so many, uh, solopreneurs or small, um, business recruitment founders, it is that time piece because it— that, that is more painful, do you know what I mean? Like, that, that does hit different.

We had it with that other company as well that we like worked on a head of customer success search. We did, we mapped the market, we did so much.

Went to his events.

Went to his event. We did, we honestly put so much time into it and it was almost like we were a dog with a bone. We were like, we will fill this because we'd invested so much time. And we generally, you know, we go into every month and we kind of think, what deals are we gonna do this month? Where are our deals gonna come from? And that was one that we thought, definitely gonna do, there's no way we won't do that. And as it went on and on, we, you know, you started speaking to candidates that had spoken to by, like 3 other agencies, the talent person was involved, and it was just, it started to realise this deal probably isn't gonna happen. And that was very early on. And I think that's when we were still very much emotionally tied to the outcomes of stuff.

Yeah.

And we were so annoyed. We were pissed off for about 2 weeks.

Yeah.

And we were just like, this is so annoying. Whereas I don't think we do that now.

So how do we, let's talk about how do we get better at avoiding that then? So like where, what jumps out at you? Is it, we've got to be way more willing to have the courage on that job briefing or at that stage to be like, you know what, actually it's multi-agency, this isn't something we're going to work. I don't know, where does it start?

I think it starts with, yeah, from the, from the job brief to start with, like when you're on that first call. With this situation, it was just the founder, he was giving us everything, we were going to be sole agency. It's the cracks started to appear as the weeks were going on that maybe internal recruiter was in like in the middle. He hadn't been completely honest with us, but But I think having that, you know, initial briefing and asking, you know what, such a simple question to actually ask people in that is, are you ready to make this hire now?

Yeah.

The amount of times that you ask someone that and you go through a whole job briefing, we had it last week, didn't we? And he's like, oh, what, I'm not really in a hurry if the right person comes along. So, and I said, okay, so if I do the search tomorrow and if I send you people on Tuesday, are you going to interview them next week and can you hire them? Oh, I'm not— and then as soon as somebody starts going like that, I'm like, okay, see you later, bye. Whereas before I would have gone, okay, cool, I've just got a job brief and I'm going to send some CVs. Whereas now I might realistically— let's— I think it's just you've got to be so honest with yourself. Are you honestly going to hire this person, or have you just been told by someone in your company that you need to hire X? You can't really be asked, you're too busy, and actually you're just doing this as a tick box exercise yourself versus someone that's got got a pain and they need to hire that person. And if they don't, it's going to have a detrimental effect to their business. Because even some of our, like, best clients that we work with and have done for a long period of time, they'll give us 5 jobs a week and we will work one of those jobs, not all 5, because you can tell in the way that they're talking about those jobs which ones are priority, which ones don't have a lot of candidates in play, and which ones they actually need. And normally it's the ones where the hiring manager is banging on the door. So and we know we're gonna fill those ones versus us working things that, you know, they don't have that pressure almost. So I think it's just being really honest with yourself and stop almost wishing, going, "Oh, I've got 100K at final." Like, that doesn't mean anything because half, you know, what happens if none of those people actually, you know, wanna hire them? So yeah, I think it's just from that first meeting, dig down, ask the questions that are gonna make them feel a bit uncomfortable almost and say like, 'Do you need this person? Can they start soon?' You know, and see how they react. Because people, you will know when someone needs to hire. They'll be like, 'I need this person yesterday.' Yeah, exactly. And you can tell.

So, and what about, how have you felt about within that? Have you, how do you feel about if they're like, 'Yeah, we've already given this to our agencies,' you're like, 'Straight no.' Just probably no.

Honestly, I think we would just rather walk away from something unless I had someone off the top of my head and I was like, 'This person is amazing, interview them.' I wouldn't bother doing a search. I think you're so much better trying to get ahead of the curve and trying to find something else than, you know, if it's going to take you 2 minutes and you can chuck some people over, do it. But, you know, if someone's already been, you know, out to agency and they're this and they're that, I'm like, it just sounds like it's going to be a nightmare, to be honest.

Not worth it. Okay. Yeah. And then also it sounds like from your experiences coupled with that is again being truthful with yourself. Is this a reputable brand? Do they have a good reputation in the market?

Yeah.

Because it sounds like that as well.

Yeah, because we haven't had actually— we've had one person leave, but that was from like personal reasons, wasn't it? But apart from that, we haven't had one dropout, and I think that's really important to us as well because it stings so much more as well when somebody— if someone had joined a company and then had left, I would feel so much more— you're so much closer to it all. So I wouldn't want somebody to leave, and I think if you're going to start working at a company and you already know You know, people, you know, recruitment has a really bad name and lots of people think we're like the devil. Actually, we're not. If you have a good recruiter and you're honest and you just want the best for your candidates, you're actually doing a really positive thing to the world. So I think for us, it's working with brands that we believe, that we think are great, that we want people to thrive in, because ultimately that's going to create more business. And yeah, versus going, we can make 10 grand if we place someone in there. Yeah, but they might leave after 6 months and then tell everyone how much they hate you. Like, what's the point of that?

Yeah, yeah, some good bits in there. I think, like, again, like, not asking the questions that you don't hear the answer to, being really honest with yourself on those job briefing calls. Don't just hear what you want to hear. Make sure that, yes, companies and brands that you've either heard good things about, or you can have people tell you in your network, like, yeah, they're a good brand versus not. And then, yeah, really consider, like, do you want to be working multi-agencies. Like, you've got to judge that. So some good things in there. What have you— Louise, I'll come to you on this, and both of you can share this. Like, what I did find interesting about both of your approaches is normally I'd speak to recruiters and they're like, yep, I do, um, account executives in the UK, or I could do go-to-market in the UK, or I do go-to-market in the US, or whatever. You've been like really holistic with your— like, was you doing that in Seoul? Was that like fairly normal? Like, because normally Tell us a bit about this because I think that's quite interesting. Like, you've been quite— so you would you say your niche is go-to-market?

Would you say go-to-market within tech companies? And I think we're really, um, it's more about we know the companies we work for, so it's gonna be company-led. So seed-funded up to unicorn tech businesses, and then anything in the go-to-market function. So marketing, it's really, really funny, we've done so many marketing places. Placements. We weren't allowed to do marketing.

We used to have to give our roles away. So if I got an account exec on in the US, we'd have to obviously give it to the US team. If I got a marketing role on, a creative role, a product role— I was only ever working at my last business in pre- and post-sales, which we were quite creative with kind of like going outside of that. But, um, it's been really nice to be able to kind of like follow not just like a box and a trend. And I think actually now, like, really we're working a lot outside of that just pure sales place.

Like, oh yeah, probably our least.

Yeah, it's really interesting. Like, one of my conversations recently, he's ended up taking his career to the US, works for like a big brand. It's a bit of a soundbite, and we'll go into like why with him, but it was like he almost feels like he thinks niche gives you a disadvantage.

100%.

And it's part of like what we're talking about here, because as you can imagine, especially when you're an employee, typically, like, it's been discussed in this podcast all the time, like, having a niche is important. There's loads of positives to that in terms of understanding your market really well. Every search that you do is going to help your future searches, all those bits. But actually, what you're saying is you have got a focus, but it's very company-led.

Yeah.

But then if that company is going, hey Louise, yeah, you know what, we've got no need right now on our sales team, they're absolutely flying, But something that we definitely need to improve and we wish we had yesterday was a really world-class marketing person.

Yeah, yeah.

Maybe before, I need to be like, yeah, you know what, actually I can't do that, let me pass you over to Emma that does marketing. That's what you had to do before. But you, has, have you not run into challenges then? Because normally, do you know what I mean?

Like, yeah, I think, do you know what, I think actually sometimes, like you say, it's a detriment if you have to pass that over because then someone has to get to know the company again, get to know what they like. Like it does take time to get to know who exactly— like, we've got a big client at the moment where we speak to someone and we're like, they're going to get the job, they're very Italian. So it's like, I think actually being able to work across all different roles, you know what type of person and cultural fit they want and what their values need to be and, you know, what their aspirations need to be and kind of like the mould that person, that business hires. So actually I think it's a lot easier because then it's just finding a different job title.

Yeah.

Or, you know, finding someone.

So have you found other similar characteristics?

What, uh, so you did pre and post sales. Yeah.

So like, have you found it hard? Have you found it hard or like more than manageable? Or like, you know, I mean, how have you found like, oh wow, this week I'm doing a marketing search, last week I was doing the pre-engineer sales, right?

Like, I think beforehand, so before Salt, I was at a company called Wenham Carter, um, and I was doing everything sales. And like I say, there was quite blurred lines of like what we were focused on. Like, we were kind of going outside of that niche a little bit, but I think it's just as long as you know your businesses and you know that your clients and you know the market that really you can do any role. Um, I don't think there's too much— like, I don't think there's too many limitations on that. Like, it's the same, the same thing, it's just a different job.

I think as well it's about how you're adding value to your clients. So say I'm a recruiter and I only do marketing roles, right? That's all I do— marketing, marketing, marketing. But I do it against maybe a fintech company, a retail brand, whatever. But I know marketing. Yes, that will add value to the, the client in some way, But I think the manager will already know what that job is because they're managing the team, right? Yeah. So they can give you the details on this is the kind of person I want, this is what they're gonna be doing on a day-to-day. Cool. But if they've maybe come from a different sector or if they're, you know, wanting to know about, you know, what their competitors are doing, Louise and I know the tech, like the tech companies, the market inside out. So we are always like, oh yeah, this company. Yep. We know that person. We know what they do. We know they're, have you seen what these guys are doing? Have you heard of this company? So we can say we know the talent, like, do you know what I mean? We can give them guidance and advice on actually what the other businesses in their landscape look like. And I think the job title was probably the easiest thing to get. Like, I generally have never, never worked a marketing role until Esto.

Yeah, exactly.

It's interesting, right? 'Cause like, I think a big reason why, and I am a big advocate of having a niche, having a focus, but what you're saying here is your niche, you're just being way more company-led versus job function-led.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, it needs to be market-led.

Yeah, it needs to be market-led, like the, the, um, I was going to say, yeah, so like where, like, I totally get that. So that's actually like just having more of a niche to focus. But why I think people do end up being like, I'm Emma, I just work with those types of companies and I do marketing, is because they— that's their point of difference. That is why people do that, especially when you're a lot smaller. Like, that's an edge for people, which I do get.

There's definitely some roles like tech engineering and stuff, it's just going over our heads and I just I can't even get my head around it. So there are definitely things, but I think if you look at a go-to-market function, um, there's so much movement anyway. And also, I think people are changing how they work in their own careers now. 5, 10 years ago, if somebody starts working in marketing, they're probably going to stay in marketing. I think humans in general now are being way more fluid in terms of what they're doing, and someone might start in customer success and then decide they want to move into sales or partnership. So actually, a lot of the placements that we've done, someone that I've gone, this person's amazing, they're open to alliances, they're open to account management, they're open to sales, do you want to have a chat with them and see where they fit in best? Because I think, you know, people are—

you don't—

it's not— we don't just have the same career trajectory that we did 10 years ago where I'm, I'm working in consulting and that's all I'm going to do for my whole life. Like, yeah, people do that and then they want to work in a startup, then they want to do this, they want to do operations. So I think, you know, us being flexible, candidates are way more flexible. It's not as black and white. It's not that same sort of Rolodex of, I'm gonna call, you know, Bob from 10 years ago that was doing marketing. Oh, they're gonna be perfect. Like, Bob's probably not even doing that anymore anyway.

Yeah, I think it comes down to, again, doesn't it, like matching the people and not the skill set. Yeah. Like if you know the businesses, then you can match the person pretty easy.

Yeah, it's really interesting taking something for people that might not work in every market. No, of course. But I know, like, my wife works for G2, so like I'm quite—

Oh yeah, I love GT.

So like, and I learned a lot from the— I love a lot from— I learned a lot from like the tech sales.

Yeah, yeah.

So I do get— I really resonate. That might not work— anyone listening might not work in your market, but I do think when you're a smaller business or it's just you, it's something to think about.

Yeah, definitely.

Because— but I understand why people lead with it, because I, I do feel like with the amount of people I've sat down with, like, that's what they would say is one of their main unique selling points, is that I only deal with these types of people, so I am the specialist. I know these people inside But actually, it's something to the opposite is, well, what about being company-led? Yeah, it's been really focused on the types of companies you help, and with their help, you can understand the types of people that are going to thrive there. But then along the way, you might need some help on the skill set and expertise, but you can probably figure that out. It's interesting.

Do you know what as well? I think so many— we are going to start seeing so many job titles that don't even exist right now. Like, an example is we've just built a RevOps and sales enablement function for one of our clients. That's only quite a new piece of the sort of go-to-market landscape. And now we're seeing so many companies hiring RevOps and sales enablement. Now, are they gonna be able to go to a RevOps and sales enablement specialist? There probably is one out there. Or did they just come to us and say, look guys, we wanna build this team. Okay, cool, let's go away, let's do the research. We completely, like, fully kind of like submerged ourselves into it. We've built the whole team. We didn't have any experience in RevOps or sales enablement. I think we've done 5 or 6 cases.

What is RevOps?

Yeah, check, you know, but—

But you understand the company, you understand their values, you understand what breaks.

They didn't even know what it was because they were like, we're building— and it's this, you know, next year they might say we want this AI whatever job that doesn't exist today. Like, I think you need to be more fluid because the— what, like, we're working on things that weren't here this time last year. So if you're only sticking in one sort of thing, then you're probably going to miss out on opportunity because there's probably people out there that don't specialize in a lot of things that people need help with.

Yes, pros and cons for sure. But I think, again, I haven't spoke to a lot of people, it can just be hard saying no, should I stay focused, whatever. So there's some good things there for people to take. Let's go into something that people always think about when they start this entrepreneurial journey is tech stack.

Because I don't think we did. That was last on the list, if I'm honest.

Yes, but like, but it's good to hear that. It's good hear that though, because I think after our call I did that post. I know, Emmy, you commented on it because like, oh, we got a lot of bad reactions. Yeah, maybe I didn't, uh, do it justice. But like, tell us a bit about this because I've got here tools— you correct me, right?

But tools, I've got LinkedIn Premium, but I think I think I didn't even know what it was.

Yeah, okay, you've got LinkedIn Recruiter Lite.

Yeah, uh, Bullhorn Database, £130 a month.

Okay, so we've got £130 a month. But yeah, we've got LinkedIn Recruiter Lite, Bullhorn Database, phone, ChatGPT. That's literally what I've got written here.

Yeah, yeah, that's like—

that's for TextApp.

And just for the thing, Bullhorn, I don't really I still don't know my login details.

Okay, but this is something that we're trying to work out. So you've kept your monthly— we can be honest here— in terms of like to run the business, I've got here monthly outgoings around £500. Is that, is that truthful?

Is it a bit more? Yeah, I'd say so.

Yeah, I'd say that's even maybe pushing it a little bit, to be honest.

Yeah.

Because people can get caught up on this stuff.

I think we were talking about this this morning as well, weren't we? About tech in general and saying how there's so many different techs out there and And I remember when I used to interview people when I was at Soar, and they'd be like, have you got this, this, this, this, this? And it's like, you don't need any of that to do your job. You're just trying to fluff around from like the point of it. Yes, it might save you maybe 30 seconds or whatever, but the job is the job, building relationships and building credibility. Yeah, like we've been, LinkedIn call us all the time, like, when are you gonna do that?

We were tempted, weren't we, at first? We were thinking maybe we need premium because that's kind of what you've been moulded to do. Like sometimes, don't get me wrong, when I'm running on one email, I think maybe I could do with any more. But ultimately, you've all got LinkedIn and it's all about the prior relationships. We're often connected with the people anyway on LinkedIn, so not within our network. Personal branding again, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. I was prepared for a podcast yesterday with someone and she, all of her, most of her business comes from LinkedIn and she hasn't got LinkedIn Recruiter license, just LinkedIn Premium. Like, she's big on the personal branding, she's growing her network.

I think LinkedIn Recruiter, like, I think they trap you in to, so, you know, I listened to that, the episode with John Gornley, he was saying about how they trap them into those long contracts at Finney James.

Like, we don't need that overhead.

One of my friends has started his own and he said he pays like £30,000 a year, and I was like, what? He's like, well, it's only one placement. It's like, but it's still £30,000. Like, what, what are you possibly getting from—

it's crazy how expensive it is. I think it's because people believe that they need it in order to be successful in recruitment.

So we're definitely quality, not quantity, okay? If you've got a search, you can either send 500 emails on LinkedIn, or you can find the 10 people that can do the job, you go on LinkedIn, you add them, you email them, you call them. You spend that bit longer to get hold of those 10 people than to just slapdash send 500 emails. Like, spend time doing the right thing, and you know, it's a little bit more effort, but you're saving yourself a lot of money.

Yeah, nice. It's good to hear, right? So do you think it's just helped you be less distracted, basically, and like just prove to both of you, like, I don't need that?

I never used my LinkedIn when I was at Soar. Yeah, I used to get in trouble because I always used to have my emails left over. Some people used all their emails, some people didn't really even use it. So I honestly just go on the main LinkedIn. I do a little Boolean search in the top and I often just use that.

You're not even using your CRM though? What are we like spreadsheet vibes?

We love a spreadsheet. We are using this. We are getting to grips with the CRM.

Both of us are not very good at admin. That was always the thing that we were getting bollocked for at our old companies is nothing's on the system, you've done nothing. Which is really cool.

I know.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was just something that we both were like, okay, if we're gonna build a business, we actually do need to try and wrap our heads around having a database. Yeah. Like putting everyone in one place, tracking things properly. Yeah, so I think, yeah, Google Sheets is probably our best friend. Yes, but we are trying to move everything across to—

You definitely should. I guess this is your reminder, right? Like, again, it's easy to give the advice, but like, if you think about all the searches you're doing with people, especially if you're— you've got this mindset of like, we don't need to be that reliant on LinkedIn, the more better your database is. And you take that seriously from day one.

Do you work for Vool?

Nah, no, no, just in general.

He's undercover.

You're trying to represent us. No, not at all, nah, just in general.

I don't have a license.

Just in general, if you think about it, like in another year's time, think how good your database could be.

I know, right? Dad, calm down.

No, honestly, it's something that we, well, it's actually more something that I'm telling Emma on a daily basis, but I don't practice what I preach, but I'm like, we need to be doing this. Like, I'm like a constant little noise, like at the background.

What about on the, I know Louise, this is your wheelhouse, like getting paid, chasing invoices, that stuff. Because again, that can be, that's a big learning for people, right? You're used to doing a placement putting it on the whiteboard and being like, sweet, that's going in that commission paycheck. But yeah, it's different.

We've got it at the moment. Yeah, quite a lot of cash.

Well, let's talk about it because this is so common. And when I last asked you that, Emma, you said to me like, no, it's sweet, you get paid all the time.

Now we're owed a lot and we haven't— we've got—

so let's talk about it. So how are we thinking about that? What's been harder? What have we learned?

Well, to be honest, we haven't typically had many problems until probably the last month, But it's been quite easy to just naturally fall into that progression. I think I like to be more— I'm not that I'm data-driven at all, I'm actually like the complete opposite, but I'm trying to fit the mould. One of us has to.

She's the CFO.

I'm the CFO.

You're the CFO, okay.

I'm the CMO. I'm trying, yeah, so, you know, we chase our own invoices. Again, we did actually say the other day maybe we need to open another email because it's coming from our personal. We need an account so we can kind of separate that stuff.

When are you sending it on? When the contract's signed or when you, do you know what I mean?

Start date. Start date, yeah.

When the, when, um, when the candidate starts, we'll send the invoice through zero.

Yeah, because that could be something to think about, just that. I speak to a lot of recruiters, and again, who are struggling to always get paid on time. I know you're saying this is a bit more of a recent thing, but most people said my client hasn't bat an eyelid at me sending the invoice on acceptance and signing contract.

Yeah, I think ours probably would. Yeah, I think, to be honest, I don't even know.

I don't know, it's just something to think about because you might not have— like, they've signed a contract, they're due to start. If you think they've got a 3-month notice period or whatever you're not going to pay, you start and send your invoice until—

yeah, I know, we've got some people now that don't start till April, and what, even one person that starts in June.

It's just something to consider. Yeah, like if you never asked it, like they're not going to know any different potentially. So it's like we send the invoice on contract acceptance. Obviously if they then don't start, what you've got to worry about— you said no, no one's not started, so yeah, it's just gonna increase when you get paid. You've done the service.

Yeah, yeah. Do you not think—

yeah, I mean, I've just had a lot of recruiters say that that's massively helped them get paid on time, get their invoices out earlier. A lot a lot of people send their invoices on contract acceptance.

I've never even thought about it, to be honest.

I feel like it would tempt fate. Yeah, they'd all get hit by buses.

I think these might be limiting beliefs. Try it, just if you think about it, because think of the time periods. Yeah, you've got to wait, and cash flow is something to consider. But yeah, yeah, but normally, obviously, yeah, you're sending the invoices zero.

Yeah, send it through zero, which is pretty easy, and then we just track it all on there. Um, and yeah, I think, like I say, we've been quite lucky, I think, in terms of not having any—

we've never had any payment until in the last two.

But then we later found out that the company that waiting for the payment for, they've changed their software that they're using for their accounting. So that's where there's kind of been a little bit of a hiccup. But other than that, I think we've been pretty lucky. But we hear horror stories where people, you know, have not been paid at all, which, you know, touch wood, hopefully doesn't happen. But I'm sure there'll be, that'll be the next learning curve where.

Yeah, all of the companies we recruit for as well are pretty established. We don't work with any like really very small sort of one-man band or.

Have you found it fairly natural then to lean into like chasing your invoices?

Yeah, I quite enjoy it.

She loves the power. I do.

I'm like, Emma, no, I quite enjoy just being like organized, knowing where we're at, looking at everything and being like, she was like, Emma, we're overdue on these invoices.

I was like, don't worry, it's coming.

I'm like, she's like, well, it's not.

And I'm like, it is, don't worry, they would have sent it.

Like, I'm like, absolutely.

Well, your payment term, average payment terms, like 14 days, 14 or 2 days or 30.

Yeah, okay, sweet. Yeah, because I know that's something that a lot of people—

we always send them at 14, but No, we send them on the day. Yeah, no, I'm saying like the payment terms are 14 or— we always try and get away with 14.

Yeah, we said yeah, we do 14, they always change it to 30.

Yeah. The other thing I wanted us to talk about this, we're just thinking about the business, and I know we spoke about this and it is common, is this sort of— to give— to frame this sort of up, I frame this up. I spoke to someone yesterday, it was just— it was, um, it was him, it was his business, and sometimes there can almost be like this guilt that he's really happy at just being him and like not having this big drive to grow a team or whatever.

Yeah.

So I know when we spoke, I'm not saying that you felt guilty about, oh, should we grow, should we not, but I know it's something that you were sort of battling with maybe in terms of like, we're doing well, should we be spending money hiring people, should we not? So how— talk to us about your relationship with this, because again, it might be ever evolving, but your first, you know, first year, I'm sure you've done some reflecting, but it sounded like you sort of run into that a bit, but when we did speak, you felt really content owning that. Actually, no, we're really happy. Yeah, being us too, and this is our business. And actually, we've got nothing to feel guilty about that we're not growing a business, or we feel like we should grow a business.

We were just listening to one of your episodes the other day, Elliot, and I think he said he did 1.6 million over 6 head, and we were trying to work out what his profit would have been on that. And we were like thinking, we've done 500k over 2 heads and our outgoings of £500 a month, like, we've made a pretty good amount of profit versus even if we hired somebody. We were trying to do the maths, weren't we? We were like, if we wanted to hire a good— because I, I do not want to hire— I wouldn't want to hire a junior. I'd want to hire somebody that I could trust and that, you know, would be comfortable working remotely for a period of time, that, you know, probably someone that I already knew. And I'm thinking a good recruiter in this market today is like £60-70K base. So you hire them, you then want them to do what they need to do for 250. Even if they did 250, I think we worked out how much we— you'd make about 30 or 40 grand off them, right? Could we— or we could just do one more deal between us and then we've made the same amount of money and we wouldn't have had to go through all that, probably have sleepless nights, probably have to have tough conversations, probably, you know, they might not do that, they might blank 3 months. They like— but have you wrestled with it though?

Have you thought like, should we be hiring? We've got this money. What do you like?

And I think, like we were saying, when we're like, at the moment, we're very much, we have a very, very, very, like, every day I wake up and I thank the universe for our life because we have a great life. We have a really good work-life balance. We spend a lot of time, you know, we can put our health first, we can go to the gym, we can do this. We're not run, like, completely run down. And I just think hiring people is really stressful. And a lot of the people that we've spoken to are like, like, hold off for as long as you can and enjoy this time in your life, because once you've hired people, you won't get it back. Like, I used to manage people when I was at school, and it was really fucking stressful. And half the time I was doing their job as well as my own job because I didn't want them to get in trouble. And I'm like, I just don't think I could do it now.

Like, I think also as well, like, our mindset around that definitely changed. Like, before we started, and perhaps conversations that we had in the first 3 months, we were very keen on getting a hiring plan in place. You know, when's our first hire going to be? We'll assess at 6 months. Whereas I think that has definitely done a massive 360 to be like, we're happy just being just us at the moment. And I think it will come to a point where we get bored of just doing deals between us and we want more than just like, you know, a bit of a lifestyle business that we're passionate about. And that, I guess, yeah, then it will come to a point where we think we want to build a team, we want to manage, we want to be present, we want to be in the office. Whereas I personally don't feel like both of us are in a place where we can give that, and we don't actually feel like we want to hand over the reins. I feel, I almost feel too, like, precious over Esto at the moment that I wouldn't, you know, ultimately people don't care as much as you. And I think that's what we realise as well when we've heard a few horror stories, whereas it's like, people are not going to be as passionate about Esto as we are. And I think, yeah, it will get to a point, and don't get me wrong, I'm excited for when that happens, but right now, now I'm really just enjoying the ride, the lifestyle, and being able to just, you know, collaborate with you and be able to kind of build a brand that we're proud of right now.

We've actually done some split deals with a couple of people that used to work at Salt. A guy called Ollie, shout out if you're listening, he's got Jimmy, and Jimmy, Ollie and Jimmy, we love you. He's got his own agency, and when we've got too many jobs, we're like, do you guys have candidates for this? And then they invoice us once the candidates pass their probation. Because, and then that was kind of like the best of both worlds, because if we've got too many jobs on, we can essentially borrow them to, to fill the jobs. And then when it quietens back down, um, like they're not working on anything at the moment for us, but you know, that might change. So I think that's quite a good approach that we've got.

No commitment in terms of not to pay salaries.

So I just think the most important thing I take from that, and it's also like a note to self, is like the most important thing is like you, you both of you know what you want. Because I think if you're not clear on that— and that can change, obviously— but if you're both really aligned on like, you know what, this had a great first year, this year I really like the idea of us both just really buckling down, you know, enjoying what we're doing, delivering a great service, and then we can reassess— if you're both on the same page on that, that's clear, then what that means is you can make decisions. Because where people struggle is like, should I be doing this? Should I hire someone? Should I not? And that's because I haven't got clarity on like the type of business want. So I think that's why it's key. And I think when I do have conversations with what— the way that you're talking about, uh, it being both of you is like just owning that. Because I have it all the time. Sometimes people almost feel like, uh, like this guy said to me yesterday, like, oh, I'm not like the people that you normally interview.

Excuse me, sorry, um, I'm having a coughing fit.

No worries. I'm not, I'm not like, like the normal people you interview. Like, I don't want to grow this big team. And sometimes people almost a bit sheepish to say that. That's why I wanted you to share that, because yeah, there's nothing wrong with owning that. And if that's what you want, that's the most important thing, having clarity on it.

I think as well, like, management and leadership and recruitment is almost like very much glorified. When I was at Salt, it was like, you know, go down that chain. They had lots of different routes, whether you could be a biller or management. But for me personally, I always wanted to go down that management. I don't know why, I just felt like, you know, those are the people that get the most respect. When you've done it for a long period of time, you realize it's actually probably the worst job in recruitment. Like managing people and just having to take on all their problems and everything. And actually, it's— that is what's emotionally draining way more than you just doing that. Like, I feel such a sense of, like, relief since I've been doing esto because I'm like, oh my gosh, I just have to do placements now. Like, that's all I have to worry about. And I think sometimes people get in their heads, I want to go down the management route, or I want to hire loads of people, and versus the reality, could you be happier just doing deals? I actually think if I'd stayed at Salt And instead of going down that management route, if I'd just done deals, maybe I would have been a lot less stressed and, you know, a lot more happier. But I felt like I wanted to, you know, manage people. But I don't know if that's the best thing to do.

And it's okay for that journey to change as well, I think.

Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, I think on this, definitely, I think as well in today's world, AI, outsourcing, like that, like that's a legit option. Now.

Yeah, I don't think we would ever do that.

Why?

Ever?

No.

Well, we had it the other day.

What, in South Africa or Philippines? You're not—

I personally think for us, our whole business is called— is, is Estobyu. And we even— so when we do think about hiring, one of the things I'm like 100% set on is that I want to be working in an office with people. Not every day, but at least like 2 to 3 days a week. I want people to be able to to have their own natural style of recruitment. So I think a lot of companies get into, you know, you must send 15 CVs, you must do this, you must do that. For me, I want to— I want people in my company to work how they want to work. I want them to be authentic to themselves. I think sometimes when you outsource things, or, you know, even use AI to write your emails— I know some people do that— it's like, well, that's not you, that's not authentic. So even though I know it's probably easier, it just goes against everything I stand for. So, yeah, you know, and what we're trying to build as well.

I think.

Yeah, well, I just think the reason why I brought it up is because one of the biggest challenges— you might disagree with me, but like, it again, it's the timepiece. So not everything that you do day to day, every week, is, um, as impactful as other things, right? So there could be more high leverage things that you could spend more time on, right? So if you were to do a time audit or your week, for me personally, I can very easily sometimes get the end of the day and be like, I felt busy, but what the fuck have I done today?

Oh yeah.

So it's like, so for me, I'm— I've always Advocate, I've had, um, she's UK-based, we call her growth assistant, she plugs into the team. But I've had the virtual assistant for like 3, 4 years now, and that, that's— what does she do?

Is she a real person?

Yeah, she's a real person.

Where is she?

She, she's based in Cambridgeshire. Oh right, okay. Yeah, she came to our Christmas thing. No, but like the reason why I'm bringing that up is because like there will be things that both of you are doing that probably if you were to take the time to create some sort of checklist or system document, someone else could do. And then that means we weren't talking about that, you can spend more time on on going out meeting clients. Yeah, like there will be more high-leverage tasks versus other things. That, that's all. I think it's something important to think about when it's just you and it's your time.

Yeah, we, we launched a second semi-business community thing, um, in October last year, which is called Together. And essentially it's a female-only community for go-to-market and HR and talent. And we, uh, want to run events, we want to do a mentorship program. All these things. We did our first event in December and we're halfway through Q1 and shock horror, we haven't really started planning the event 2. And we were saying like, oh, I'd just love to have like someone that would just, you know, do that for me.

I think like we, yeah, that's what I said.

You could. I could, I could.

A couple of people do.

Oh my gosh, I actually could.

If you were to break it down, there'd be things that person could do. So Carla, so for example, yeah, we host quarterly dinners that we invite founders to because our audience I— it's helpful that you probably did the first one, right? So now you could probably hopefully find it fairly easy to be like, this is what I want you to do when searching for a venue, this is what I want you to do for this part of the task. Um, but like, yeah, she'll source venues, put it on a spreadsheet, steal yours. No, but like, you, you should be, you should be thinking about that. Like, your outgoings aren't huge, like, how can you get some of that time back? So the first thing is, is doing a time audit.

We literally did say we would probably— our first hire probably wouldn't actually be a recruiter, it would be somebody to run run the Together community for us and do the finances and stuff.

It doesn't have to be a full-time employee. It can be— I'm a huge advocate for that. I think in today's world, personally, you have me spend loads of money. Like, I've got— she's on a retainer for me, so I pay her every month. Um, I have another, um, girl called Micah who's our learning designer for our training platform. We have a retainer. Like, I think in today's world you can access amazing talent.

Uh, I think maybe we actually need to do that.

Yeah, I think a couple of other people have said to me as well that I've spoken to that have also done this is like, honestly, you will not regret hiring someone to deal with all the shit that takes up your time, like, unnecessarily, like the invoicing, the admin, you know, booking things, like managing our diaries. I think, yeah, that is something that we have spoke about. Yeah, yeah. Maybe this is now brought it to light even more. Maybe we're gonna do a show.

I think if you were to end up— if you wanted to end up paying for, like, one of these, like, AI automation courses or whatever, right, where they're like, you get time back, the first thing you're gonna do is do a time audit. That's just the most actionable step. So if if, Emma, every day for 30— for one day you were to write down if every 30 minutes what you did, and then you look at the end of the day and go, what actually was a good use of my time versus not? There's gonna be some stuff in there that you could probably get someone else to do. Yeah, which is like low skill level, easy for someone to do, and then you get that time back. That's just the best way to think about it.

Yeah.

Um, all right, let's round out on this, and you're sort of touching on it because I think it's really important, sometimes overlooked, which is particularly when the business is so reliant on both of you performing, something that I think people miss is to perform in work, you need to be performing out of work. I'm like really passionate about this. I know this is also part as to like why both of you feel really great about how the business is set up at the moment. So tell us a bit about this. You were talking about fitness outside of work, moving away from a drinking culture, whatever. Yeah, I think for me, I think if me and my relationship's really good, my relationship, my health's good, all that the chances of me performing in work just go up massively.

100%.

So tell us a bit about this, because I think this is also hopefully one of the benefits that people should be tapping into if they're a solopreneur, or if it's a small business, that they should be trying to be thinking about.

I think like the difference in our health and like mental well-being from now versus when we're at our last company is just so huge. And I don't think that's anything against our last company, it's not I think it is, I think it's sadly quite just a big trend across in recruitment across the board. You know, Thursday night drinks, Tuesday night drinks.

Friday's then a write-off because you're hungover.

Friday's a write-off because you're hungover. Like a lot of incentives, you know, revolve around drinking and, you know, I think you're just in that environment more. You've had a stressful day, you know, the first thing you want to do is like go out with your friends and talk about it and everyone's kind of gone through the same shit together so you're all in the same boat. Go. Whereas now, like, number one, we both work remotely, so I don't have— you know, I do definitely miss that side of like being in the office and having all that kind of fun. But you're just focused on yourself more, and you're— you own your time more. So, you know, even just being sat down at my desk for 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the afternoon, or 3 hours, whatever it was— like, when I think about that now versus what I do now, I'll do a bit of work for maybe 45 minutes, for an hour, and then I'll go for a walk. Like, and are We both are the same. We're always, we're on the phone to each other pretty much all day, but we're outside walking. We, you know.

Some of our best ideas have come when we're walking together. Yeah. Doing the things that we like to do. And I think in recruitment, especially in any sales job, you need to feel good in order to perform well.

Yeah.

Like if you're stressed, if you're tired, like sleep's a massive one. Yeah. Like now if we've had a rubbish night's sleep, I don't need to be rushing around at the crack of dawn to be on a meeting at 8 o'clock in the morning. Yeah. I think that's the difference. Allowing yourself to feel good and listen to your body and look after yourself.

Yeah, we will save each other. Like, if she's like, I had such a bad night's sleep last night, I'm like, go back to bed. I'll call you at 10. And I know that's a really fortunate position to be in, but I think it does just have so much, you know, it helps your mental health so much when you can actually put your health first and also, you know, not necessarily run away from the problems. If you've had a shit week, I'm not like, "Right, I'm gonna go and get pissed." I'm like, "Okay, that was really bad. I need to make sure that I'm going to the gym, feel good so that I can show up best for myself next week and be level-headed because this is really important that I get it right." And also having the time to be able to exercise, like, you know, going to the gym's like therapy.

Like, you know, you need to be able to exercise your body to also exercise your mind. Like, I think it is just all about feeling good.

Yeah, I just think it is sometimes overlooked by people. Like, I think— and I'm— I've been guilty of this. Like, it's so easy when it's your own business to put all your eggs in that basket. And it's like, because my business— yeah, but I'm building a business, I'm— the time that I'm spending on it is the right thing to do. And then slowly but surely, your relationships can be shit, you're showing up really badly there, you're not going to the gym. Because yeah, I just hear that all the time, and I've been guilty of that. But whenever I've— that whenever I feel best, it is And I don't know how I feel about work-life balance. I don't know how helpful that is personally in terms of like this word balance. Like for me, I'd rather—

We don't really have like— we— I see our work as like an extension of my life. So I work on a Sunday, I work on a Saturday.

Yeah, and I enjoy it.

But it's not because I'm like, right, it's because I'm like, oh shit, I've got— I may not work on a Friday. Like I don't necessarily go, these are my working hours. When I'm not working, I'm not going to check my— like my work emails are on my phone. I read them as if I read my normal emails. There's no I don't have a sort of a line, which maybe some people would say isn't healthy, but for me, I'd rather constantly be in the know than go on holiday for 2 weeks, switch off, come back, and there's been a shitstorm. I'd rather just constantly deal with things as they come, you know, and not have that line. And, you know, some of the stuff we do is in the US, and like, we were on a call last night at half 8 on a video call. Yeah, it doesn't really bother me because, yeah, because we probably didn't start work till 11 AM or something. It It doesn't— there's no— we just do, we just go with the flow in terms of what is needed from us.

But I think again, like, we are super lucky and fortunate to be able to do that because we understand, like, you know, businesses have to run a certain way. You have to have people on, clocked on at the same time.

I think if we didn't, that would be chaos.

It's just finding that balance of, like, what works for you and also, like, what works for the business. But yeah, it definitely is easy for the lines to be blurred in terms of, like, personal time and working time. Time, but I think that hasn't really affected us negatively. If anything, you know, I quite enjoy that. Yeah, it just all kind of being blended into one rather than this is work and this is home.

Yeah, yeah.

I just may change, I don't know.

No, no, for sure. I think it's just about you being at peace with it and what works for you really. But I think what we're talking about here is as a business owner, you always hear that like have more freedom, start a business. Some people argue that you can very easily find yourself having less freedom because you're run a business but you're doing a job that you don't really like because you've got to serve these customers and clients. But if you're currently really struggling at work, don't forget to take a look in the mirror and go, actually, like, where else am I performing in life? Yeah, it's your business as well. Like, and I— when I first started, I was really bad at communicating with my now wife, and like, I just expected to understand. And now I've got way better at that. Like, you do have a bit of a journey with it, but it can just be so overlooked by people. So don't sort of overlook that if you don't feel like you're getting the most out of your career or the most out of your, your business.

For sure. Definitely. Like, just understanding yourself and putting your health and your wellness first is just going to have such a positive impact on everything else in your life.

Massively.

Love it. Well, look, what a first year. Good little recap.

Happy birthday.

Plenty of lessons in there, things for people to take away. I think it's fair to say that I think what is really true, which I really respect— I know we started with like how you came up with the company name, but I I think what is really ringing true here is like you've both really owned like just being yourselves and running the business that you want. Basically not using this CRM, not like just, you know, like we don't need all these tools.

Yeah.

Like, do you know what I mean? Like you really own that, which I really respect. And I think that's the cool thing about entrepreneurship. It's your business. No one's saying, no, Louise, you can't do it that way. Like you've owned that and you're gonna keep learning. There's gonna be some bad things that happen along the way, but I think this is a really cool thing about taking this leap and what you've achieved. Yeah, I'm sure, because I'm the same, you're always thinking, I could have done this better, we could have done 530 grand or whatever. But that's amazing what you've done in your first year, and I'm sure it's only going to continue. So yeah, I really appreciate both of you coming on, being honest, sharing everything, because I know it helped people.

So yeah, thanks for coming on.