Robert Hanna - The best billers I have ever worked with don't cut corners.

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Rob Hanna, who is the owner of Kusoon Car. Got it right?

Got it right.

I was practicing that for like 2 minutes, Rob, so thank you. Um, so yeah, Rob, we are in— let's set the scene. So we're in a boardroom. Is this— this is a meeting room in what street are we on?

We're on 1 King Street.

1 King Street. So Right by a bank. Really nice offices.

Yeah, we're very privileged to be here, I have to say. Yeah, very nice offices just off Cheapside. So for those—

nice. Yeah, really cool. So that's where we are today. But as I was saying, Rob, where I always love to start, how did you get into recruitment?

The golden question. You probably haven't heard this response before, but I always didn't wake up one day thinking I was going to be a recruiter.

Yeah.

No, I fell into recruitment very much so. I actually got a call from a rec to rec whilst I was at university, and I thought they were pitching me a job for Procter Gamble at the time. They were talking about sort of marketing, advertising, sales, and kind of really sold this role to me.

Sold you the dream.

And anyway, I sort of stumbled along King William Street and found myself at a recruitment firm interview. And very much from there, I quickly learned about the industry. And fell into it. But the honest answer is I was very much given a call by a rec direct post-university and fell into it. It wasn't something that I had initially considered.

What did you do?

I did a business management degree with French. French is somewhat passable now at best.

Really?

But yeah, that's what I did at Leeds University because it was one of the— at the time, a good university for employability on the business school and sort of the top 10.

Did you always want to go uni? Like, was that always on the plan or the agenda?

It was, I guess it was, you know, following A-levels, it was something I was really keen to try and pursue, not just so from the sort of academic perspective, but I think from the sort of social perspective as well and the general character building.

Where are you from originally?

So I'm from Leicestershire originally. And that was one of my passions for setting up Cassoon Carr, in fact, because my grandfather ran a very successful law firm in the 1950s called Rich and Carr. Solicitors. Um, so I always had a passion to kind of emulate his success.

Okay, in business, we're definitely gonna get into that. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so fell into recruitment, a recruiter called you, you had no idea what the hell was going on, and then from when I looked at your LinkedIn, you ended up at the, uh, infamous S3.

Indeed, yeah. So I had, um, you know, good time at S3. I, I—

how long was you there for?

So I was there for 18 months.

Okay.

I probably joined a very interesting time, shall we say. I joined in the 2008 Lehman's crash. So, you know, first day, foot through the door, um, I'm seeing people carrying PCs, you know, seeing people sort of, you know, walking in and out of the office frantically screaming, Lehman's is going down, Lehman's is going down, you know, headhunt, headhunt, headhunt. Um, and that meant nothing to me at the time, you know. I didn't understand. I barely had a training course at that point. Um, but it really kind of chucked me in at the deep end and you had to kind of learn your stripes. And I have to say S3 was really good at kind of the fundamental basics for training of recruitment. And my first manager at the time really kind of looked after me and sort of put an arm around me at the time because there was a chance where, you know, there was going to be redundancies. The market had been, you know, what market did you go into? So I've, I've actually diversified across 4 markets. Um, I started originally in oil and gas in the energy space.

Yes, you did that for 18 months.

I did that for 18 months.

Okay.

And Then following that, and that was a good experience, my boss actually left to join a business that he was a director in, a boutique business, and I had a very good relationship with them, and I kept that sort of relationship. And I always wanted to sort of explore. I'd been in the big global environment, a big recruitment industry, and I wanted to try something different. So he sort of suggested coming to join them, so I did.

And that's sort of how I made my sort of first move Yeah, so before we get, before we get into that quickly, um, what I always just like to, to sort of, um, try and understand and cover, I think obviously I said to you before we spoke and did this, but, um, what, what really, um, planting the seed to start this was just, just my experience in the first year. Yeah, it was extremely difficult. Yeah, um, extremely tough. Um, so how were you, how was your first 12 months in recruitment?

So I'm, I'm very open to people and saying I was very much a first year flop.

Okay.

Um, I didn't take to recruitment naturally whatsoever. And I think that's— and that was quite a shock to me because I'd always been sort of in sports teams, you know, played at quite a competitive level.

All right.

Yeah. Well, not in an arrogant way, but I'd always thought, you know, I was confident to back myself. So I thought, you know, this is easy, it's just finding people jobs, um, you know, which we all know it's not. There's a lot more to it. Um, so yeah, I was, um, I struggled. I really kind of didn't grasp the basics as quickly as some of the other people would, you know, my general qualification skills, my meeting skills, you know, my understanding of my market and how to get good at the job. You know, really shadowing the top billers, really learning from them by osmosis, you know, all those things you should be doing, I wasn't really doing. And so I wasn't—

what were you doing then? Was it— did you think you was too— did you think, like, was there— was there an element of not having humility at that point and thought you knew better?

Or— I just think I wasn't— I, I didn't start, you know, one thing was I wasn't as focused as I— looking back on it now, you know, the way I plan my days. Yeah, I was very reactive. I was going to work, I thought I was doing well, but I wasn't getting the results, you know. And, you know, in that environment you are targeted on targets naturally, um, and, you know I wasn't kind of billing what I should have been billing. So, you know, I was lucky that I had a supportive team at the time that sort of said, you know, they backed me because I think it could have gone the other way.

Was you doing the right activities and were you giving it, giving it a go?

I was doing the activities, but I probably wasn't doing them to the standard that was needed to, to really build. Because, you know, you meet some people who were, you know, wonderful billers in their first year and it really cooked up. I'm genuinely not that case.

So when you say it was a flop, what did you build on your first year?

Uh, I probably built about 100 $100K in my first year.

Mate, that isn't that bad. Do you know how much I built in my first year?

How much did you build?

Very open, $24K.

But what was your market?

There's no way I'm blaming the market in that scenario. It was, um, it was just really difficult, mate. I think so. I recruited in the insurance sector.

Yeah.

Um, I was in a business of between 8 and 12 people, um, and I basically just did everything that my, um, the people around me told me to do. And the thing is, why I didn't lose my job was just simply because I, I sat next to the owner of the business, and I was— I absolutely worked my socks off. Yeah, in that first year. Like, it wasn't an element of not listening, thinking I knew better, these things. Um, and they just kept saying to me, Hishem, keep doing what you're doing, you're doing the right activities, it will pay off. And there, obviously, you may have experienced it now when you hire for your business, which we'll get on to, but I really experienced that tipping point. Um, but Yeah, mate, that's, that's— I mean, 100K in your first year isn't the end of the world.

I had a target of around sort of 160, 180K. So it was permanent? So I've always mainly been permanent. I've done sort of an element of contract as well. Um, but yeah, so in, in my eyes of the people that I was working with, you know, I was sort of halfway off target. Yeah. And, you know, I joined S3 as well at the time because it was a big brand. You know, you're surrounded by top, top billers. You know, you always want to push yourself to be the best. In my opinion. And so, yeah, I, I, I, and I was surrounded by people, you know, who are billing, you know, 500, 600, or people who have got sort of, you know, 100 runners on a temp desk, you know, and it's lucrative and really impressive people. Yeah, exactly.

So I guess before, before we move on to the, the next part then, I'm always just so fascinated by asking sort of this whole S3 environment what it was, just because now I'm moving to— so I used to recruit in a small business, as I was saying, in Harrogate. So outside of London, and then obviously moving to London, um, I've been exposed to this sort of whole world of, uh, recruitment in London, right? And obviously S3 is a huge, huge, huge brand.

Yeah.

So I'm just— just before we move on, I'd love to sort of get from you going from not knowing, um, what recruitment was and these things, so then being in an environment that so many people speak highly of and has produced so many businesses and so many, um, successful people. What was your perception and experience of working in, in the S3 environment? So you just mentioned a bit of it there, but what was— how would you describe the experience and that, that whole time?

I think S3 was a genuinely great experience, and from my cohort as well, there's probably 10 business owners just alone from that I started with. So it's true. What I think, um, I enjoyed about S3 at the time was they really do focus in on training. I mean, I didn't know, you know, recruitment isn't rocket science. People can dress it up however they want. It's not. It's simplifying the job. I didn't know what an open question was when I first started there. I didn't know how to effectively qualify, you know. And they really do work you to understand how to get good at the job. So I was very lucky in terms of they invested in me in terms of sort of formal training, and I was very grateful for that. And then they also give you a lot of opportunity to get involved. So, and they put you in a team, and they kind of really do push you to do as well as you can. So I think my really high standards— yeah, it's high standards. And I think, um, that's what enjoyed about my time there. But it's, I would say, the training of actually going through subs, the sub-practice areas of what it takes to be a good recruiter. Yeah. Um, you know, it's second to none. And they generally, you know, you'd have catch-ups, you'd have sort of progress meetings, you'd have targets, you'd have a vision of where you needed to go. So I think the whole makeup of being in the global company and kind of being surrounded by top performers, but then also giving you the platform to get good at the job, that's really interesting. They married together very nicely for me. And so I was actually very grateful for that experience.

So you built a really good relationship with your manager? You said, and then he went off and set up on his own.

So he went to join another, um, a business that he was a— basically become a director in as well, where there was sort of, you know, one other owner of the business. Yeah. And as though I kept that relationship.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but that was in a completely different sector.

So I went to oil and gas, and then what's it?

Yeah, so I had a year and a half of oil and gas sort of energy experience, um, and then I moved into procurement. Procurement and supply chain. So yeah, and Did I know much about procurement and supply chain at the time? Absolutely not.

You knew recruitment now though.

But I knew recruitment. And that's the one thing I'd say is that recruitment has a very good transferable skill set. So many things that you can get from recruitment. And yeah, I joined there and I really took to it. You know, it was a market that—

So how long was you there for? Just to sort of—

So I started there, I joined there as sort of a consultant stroke senior consultant.

Okay.

And I was there for the best part of 5 years.

Oh, okay. So a real solid stint.

Yeah, and again, I really enjoyed my time there. So I progressed. I was the first organically grown director of the business. So from joining as a consultant, very much sort of within that 5-year window into my sort of third and a half, fourth year being made a director. And I really enjoyed that journey because it was completely different to the S3. S3, big global outfit, everywhere, all the infrastructure, everything you would like, to moving to an office where, at the time, We're in the basement, you know, and we really— I really enjoyed being part of that part of the directors there. One of the directors in particular, probably one of the best recruiters I've ever had the experience of working with, really. You know, you could get so close to them and you can learn from them, you can shadow them. And so, you know, from moving from a basement to being on sort of, you know, Fleet Street, moved to the office from sort of, you know, a few people to sort of 20, 30 people, you know, going on that journey, I really enjoyed it.

Cool. So let's, let's unpack that. Yeah, I think there's, there's definitely. So, but then just, just so then, um, I know the, the timelines and just to think. So then, um, so you was there for 5 years and then, and then was it after there that you then set up your own recruitment business?

Yeah, right? Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Exactly.

So before we get on to that then, um, 5 years, and by that, by the time you left, you was a director level. You started as a consultant, senior consultant. Um, so I guess the first thing And how did you deal with then the transition of the market? Because a lot of people obviously, as anyone, I think I'd be the same. Like, if I had built up relationships and people for 18 months, 12 months, 24 months, however long, to then, um, chuck that away, or wherever you want to call it, to go into a different market and these things, obviously that's a real challenge, right? Because it's pretty much starting from zero again, do you get what I mean? So how, how, firstly, how was that transition? Because there'll be a lot of people listening that maybe considering a move or considering, um, a different market, whatever. But that, that obviously is a huge thing to think about.

So what—

how did you deal with that?

Um, well, I think firstly I had, I had trust. Um, I had trust in the people that I was joining. So I wasn't joining a brand new business in the procurement space. It had been, you know, a very established—

that's a really important factor, isn't it? So although you were starting it from zero potentially, but the people that you was working alongside and supporting had a recognized brand or had been— they had a complete cold desk.

No, it wasn't a complete cold desk. They had built up a fabulous business, um, you know, worked day and night to do that and to achieve that. So, you know, I had obviously had a previous relationship which, which was helpful, and I had a trust there, as I mentioned.

That's a really good point.

Um, so yeah, I— but I also— a big part of this, and one thing I say is you've got to be prepared to take risks, you know, throughout your careers. If you want to kind of push yourself and get to the, the highest level you can get to, um, you've got to take risks and And for me, I wanted to exploit a boutique environment. I wanted to take a risk. Um, and so I, I took it and I put myself out of the comfort zone. I kind of knew I'd have to kind of really work 10 times harder than everyone else who's already in that procurement space to, to stand a chance. And I was prepared to do that.

So how did you, how did you start learning about the market? How did you do that?

Um, obviously I've got a lot of training internally, um, but then you've got to read around the market. And the other thing is we all know your candidates are your source of information, right? So getting back to your point about the recruitment skills and knowing recruitment prior to going in with your eyes wide open, you know, one candidate can be a source of lot of information. So though, you know, I really— at that point I understood how to qualify candidates. I knew how to extract information. I knew how to process that information. I knew how to use that in part of my own business development strategy when trying to win clients. And I knew that in terms of how I could use that for my own personal branding. And also the company was very good at supporting you in terms of getting you in front of events and getting in front of key people. So yeah, there was a lot of kind of ways, but I had to be proactive. You know, it didn't come to me. I think if you're going to take a risk, um, you've got to be prepared to be proactive and you've got to be prepared fail as well. Luckily enough, you know, and I had had failings— I talked to you about my first year flop. I didn't, um, comparatively to other people around me in that environment, um, you know, this time I had to go in as well. I had to really go for it. But it wasn't, you know, it wasn't— again, I didn't smash my first 3 months. I took, I took to it, but it sort of took sort of 3 to 6 months to really get going, and then it kind of kicked in.

Yeah, okay, cool. So then, and then what, what was the timeline of, um, you being consultant, senior consultant And then what was the next stage after that? What did you then progress to?

So then it would go to sort of principal. So every year I basically managed to sort of hit a promotional target. So it would be principal consultant, manager, senior manager, director.

Okay.

Um, and it was a very, you know, it was a very—

so was it all just done on billings basically?

It— of course billings are important, and I think, you know, we can't shy away from that. You do need to hit billing targets. But I think when you're in a boutique, um, or in a smaller firm as well, it's important that you're— you've got the interests of the company.

Yeah, exactly.

So, you know, as you get more senior, you're probably taking on people under your wing. So, you know, it's not just about your billing, it's about can you get others to bill and can you get them to be developed and can you get them to improve. Um, I think what can you do for the company generally, um, in terms of building the overall brand, in terms of actual, you know, what, what can you do more to add value than just being someone who's okay, I'm a director, but actually what else are you doing? Yeah, yeah.

Um, it's treating it like your own business.

Yeah, and it had a good like sort of family feel to it. And yeah, exactly, treating it like your own business. So billings, you can't You can't progress without billing. That's, that's a given.

Yeah.

But you need to do more and little things. You know, you'd want to hold your hand up if you wanted to be the social secretary or if you wanted to, you know, get involved in a particular event or if you wanted to sponsor something, you know, all of these things. If you hold your hand up and actually add value to the company, then that's—

put yourself out there.

Yeah, exactly. That's well rewarded.

So you mentioned about the first year flop, like how— what was the— so assuming that you progress each time then, So it seems like that was a pretty positive, pretty positive experience over those 5 years in terms of did you keep hitting your targets? Billings increased.

Yeah.

Overall performance increased.

As I said, as I say, I think I was surrounded, particularly the owner of the company, as one of the best recruiters I've worked with.

And so why is that? Let's, let's talk about—

I think just really knew how to do good recruitment and never cut corners. Never cut corners, you know, and was very good at sort of drilling that into people in terms of how to do best-in-class recruitment, you know, You know, from little things to making sure that, you know, direct dials— you knew the direct dial at the time. Now it's obviously more— but all the little fundamental basics from administrative to influencing to qualifying to closing to continuous closing, you know, really all of those skill sets were really ingrained into you. And I think that was really great to see and really helped you move from a sort of, you know, substandard biller to a top biller.

Let's break that down a bit. Yeah, I'm thinking people listening, makes sense, but what So you just said that makes— you just said that those things there, which he did, I just think that's really interesting. And everything that you said resonated, but I'm thinking, okay, let's just make that crystal clear and unpack that. So the key things there that you mentioned, a good biller or great biller to a top-class biller, what— what— how would you break those down from what you saw from the— from this chap that clearly was a bit of a mentor to you and had a big influence on you?

Well, they— I think firstly I look at traits in the individual.

Okay.

Um, I think the, the person that I was sort of emulating wanted to be part of, you know, hard work. I think they really were hard working. I know that sounds like a bit of a cliché, but they really were exceptionally hard working and committed and had their own internal drive.

Okay.

And I think really to be a successful recruiter, you need to have an internal drive.

What do you mean by internal drive?

You know, you've got to— I, I openly admit that I've got a bit of a chip on my shoulder. You know, I want to be, you know, the best I can be. And so, you know, I think something that motivates you, have your own goals and an internal drive that's going to drive you day to day. Yeah, because I see so many people, what I describe as sort of commute and coast. And so they go to work, they do the job. Yeah, exactly. But it's there and everyone can see it. Um, and you know, there's, there's people in my sort of networks that I see it, and I try and actually mentor people how to move out of that mindset actually, just because they're in their job and, you know, like, well, I just get the same bonus every year. It's like, well, what more can you do? So actually trying to change people's mindsets.

Um, okay, so work ethic.

So work ethic. For sure. I think subject matter expert, really knowing their market.

And how did he achieve that? How did you do that?

They achieved that by basically networking, networking, networking, networking. Yeah, they were a key networker, a key networker. And then I think it comes down to fundamental recruitment skills. And I think one of the best recruitment skills— well, two of the best recruitment skills that they had were objection handling and influencing. I think we get day-to-day objections. You know, a top biller can learn. There was a phrase we had called learn to love objections. And because of objections. Yeah, because so many young recruiters— I used to get scared when I was like, there's no way they're going to take the salary. There's no way they're going to do that location. Yeah, there's no way 2 days a week's enough for them, you know. But we actually created a culture like we embraced objections, you know, we learned to love objections. And so we actually had lots of strategy meetings and we had lots of discussions about, okay, let's learn to love objections. Let's talk about how we can get dissect that. So we really understood the objection handling process. And then once you understand the objections, obviously you've got to move to more of the influencing and selling side of things. So again, I think what made them exceptionally good is one of the best sort of, you know, objection handling people I've ever met. And then also one of the best sort of, you know, influential people and salespeople. And the final piece of the puzzle is obviously then closing. You know, you've got to be able to close. You can do all the hard yards. You can sort of manage everything, manage everything, manage everything. But you've got to be able to close. So I think they were the key sort of things. So I'd say hardworking, subject matter expert, and technical skill sets, and finessing those technical skill sets day in, day out, minute by minute, um, really, really important.

That's— no, I think that you put that really well. That's, that's really interesting. So, um, thanks for sharing that. No worries, that was good.

Um, but this didn't come overnight either, and I think it may just be rolling off the tongue quite naturally, but people actually listening to this you know, as I say, I always rewind to when I first started and even say to the modern day, I'm still learning recruitment.

Yeah, of course.

And I think anyone who shuts their eyes off to think they're an expert in the modern world, particularly with technological advancements, AI, and everything that's going on, you've got to be prepared to continuously learn. But if you're prepared to learn, then you're prepared to succeed.

But I think obviously, I think it's safe to say, but like, if you really double down on those core things there that you put together really nicely you have a really good chance on increasing your billings, increasing your performance, becoming better and better in your, in your job.

Do you know what I was scared of when I first started that I wish I'd asked for more? Is, um, more help from my colleagues.

Help, yeah.

Because, you know, if someone's doing a really good job, don't just look over to them in the office and be bitter, you know. Befriend them. Yeah, you know, I know this is competitive element in recruitment firms, but actually, you know, if you built— so build internal stakeholder relationships, you know, really befriend your cohort and people around you. Because do you know what, if they're doing a good job, you want to learn from them. Yeah. And there's a thing that we have internally here that I say to people is come to work every day and improve by 1%. Nice. You know, because if you improve by 1% every day, there's over 260-odd working days a year. You know, that's over 260% worth of self-development every day. And it could be just from a turn of phrasing, could be to a, you know, an emotional play, it could be to a tweak on an email, it could be any little thing. But if you actually really come to work every day and don't commute and coast and be something different and want to improve, you can do very, very well.

Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting, mate. So before we get, really keen to get into sort of your journey so far with your own business and stuff. But so really well put there that you learned from someone in the business that you really well respected, as you quoted, one of the best recruiters you've been around. So you really tried to emulate this person, learn from this person, right? So then, just to help me out, so then billings-wise, how do we do here then? Like, did you continue to improve? Talk to me a bit about that, because again, think of the people listening and what people want to understand is there'll be people listening that did bill $180K in their first year or now in their second, third year and still are around that $200K, $250K, $100K mark but can't get, break through that, right? So did you continue to up the billings? And if so, let's talk a bit about how you continue to do that.

Yeah, I think, yes, I did. So I did. It did suddenly click. So from being the first year flop, then it did continuously. Click. Um, so yeah, you'd be going through your numbers and year by year they'll be going up, and you had to, to ensure that you got the title promotions every year. Um, but I think as you become established in a market, you, you work smarter, you know. So the quality of my jobs, you know, the commitment from my clients, my rates, you know, all of the things that are important to working smart as a recruiter got better. You know, I had more exclusive candidate relationships, you know, I had more exclusive clients. Um, All of these things amassed to me what I call working warmer. So, okay, so if you can work a lot warmer, you're going to be able to bill a lot more. Because if you're, you're still sort of, you know, going out there doing lots of cold BD or lots of cold work, then, you know, you're still operating at $120K a year billing, right? There's no way you can get better. But if you've actually built up those relationships on the candidate and client side, I have a thing that we, we call here, which is sort of, you know, inch wide, mile deep, um, and you want to be a subject matter expert and really kind of, you know, whichever area you're recruiting in. And at the time, you know, as I say, it was in procurement supply chain, but break that down into a sub-practice area. You want to be the expert within that in terms of knowing everyone and really influencing and working with everyone. And so I was able to do that. And so as a result of that, you know, my billings increased year on year.

Okay.

Yeah. Was that helpful?

Yeah, no, that is. No, that— no, that is. But what I'm, I'm just curious, and I really, I really like working warm element there. That's really interesting. So again, think of the people listening. I'm thinking, okay, so what you just said there is really cool. How can I— so if I'm right now still doing quite a bit of cold work, I'm 2 years, 3 years in, and I'd like to think I do have some solid relationships, but how did you then get more warmer work? Like, how did you then go from last year not having as many exclusive clients or exclusive jobs, exclusive candidates, etc., etc. So how did you then start really moving into that? Just to break that down a bit more in a bit more practical sense, because I think, I think that'd be really valuable, um, because that's what you did, right? Yeah, that's what you continued. And that, that then obviously in correlation meant that your billings went up. And like, what was your best year in those 5 years?

So within the 5 years, so it's— I have two, because obviously my biggest achievement was I had to bill— I became an overall director where I had basically over a million sort of in terms of team and myself, and that was quite a big commitment of billing. So yeah, so I was very, very proud of that kind of, you know, achievement. And then for me, from going from 100K, then sort of one year I think was 180, yeah, 250, 300, sort of 350 plus. And then obviously you're moving into more of the kind of team managing.

Yeah, yeah. And so that, that's really impressive. And I know people will be like, okay, well, how did you do that? And you're already giving us some really good stuff around that. So now I'm just thinking, yeah, as you then sit, obviously if you think, then I'm sure you'd look back at your year and gone, right, so this is how I'm going to get even more out of that account, or this is how you get what I mean. So just, just a bit more practicality around working warmer, I think would be really cool because I think I, I don't know if in my opinion when I was at the junior, but I didn't do enough analysis. Okay, nice.

And analysis is very important. So I actually had 2 or 3 clients that, um, I was doing deals with but actually when I was doing more research into the area, I knew they're going to have a lot more appetite to hire.

Okay.

So I knew I already had the key decision makers on side. Yeah, that's HR and line. Yeah, because in that market you needed to be—

you need to be—

but yeah, you needed to have both on play. So I knew one of the professional services firms, um, due to research and market areas, was basically going to need to double in size. So I'd always— every end of year appraisal, I'd analyze which clients that I really wanted to penetrate and where I believe there's going to be demand. And as a result of that, I could really penetrate them further to increase my billings. And that made it attractive to prospective candidates, because if you can paint the story that you've got a track record and they can see people that have actually kind of progressed and stayed with the firm, and equally if they're going on a journey and you can communicate that journey and how that benefits their careers and what they're looking for. So I think a lot of analysis, and that's the whole point I say to people treat recruitment as a career.

Yeah.

Because you're dealing with other people's careers.

Yeah.

So if you're not treating it as a career, you know, how are you communicating that clear message to other people? Um, so analysis of my clients and where there's going to be demand, and then I know where to invest my efforts because there's no point in— you know, we all talk about work smart, hard work.

Yeah.

So that's smart work. Yeah, exactly. You've got to analyze where, where you're going to make the money, you know, ultimately. And then the other thing, as I got more senior, was of course I needed to make sure I passed on my knowledge and experience to my team members, you know, because the big thing for me, and I think where I want to kind of help raise the bar of recruitment is to change the, the sort of image of, you know, well, it's just, it's just finding people jobs or it's a bit dog eat dog or, you know, it's just like, you know, a bit of selling, you know, sharing knowledge. Yeah, let's, let's work together. You know, I actually do a lot of things now with friends of mine who are owners of other recruitment businesses and we have sort of dual training sessions and things like that. And I think the other thing for me was, yeah, it's actually passing on the knowledge to people. But the other thing for people listening in who maybe are at the sort of 150, 180, whatever it might be, don't be afraid to ask for more help.

Okay, cool.

You know, I think people just hide under their desks and worried that they're not going to hit the weekly targets or they're being— and also, if you're not sure that a KPI, you feel it's just being given to you for the sake of hitting it, then if you can justify why you think that should be reviewed, then go and talk to someone about it. Because otherwise there's no— I've sat there before when I was given targets and I just couldn't get my head around why I needed to do X. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'd again have a discussion about it. And so for people listening in, don't be afraid to upward manage. And I think a lot of— I was scared myself to upward manage when I first started, um, but now I encourage people in my team, upward manage me. You know, I like to think I help people now, but, you know, don't be afraid to upward manage because that can help you kind of get better as well.

Okay, so, so huge— a huge point there is if you're not, if you're not taking the time to take a step back, look at where you're making your money Um, can certain client relationships— can you make more out of that? Can you offer more of a service? Can you get more out of them, etc., etc.? It can obviously really enable you to know where to put your efforts, but also enable you to take your billings to the next level on these things, right? Because you don't need obviously hundreds of clients to bill more, do you?

No.

Do you get what I mean?

That's quite the opposite.

Yeah, exactly.

And people— and that's where people are like, oh, you know, we used to people say, oh, I'm doing some BD today. And I would look at them quite, quite shocked when I knew they had sort of 3 or 4 good vacancies, you know, with a client that they should be focusing on. But it's like, oh, I'm going to BD. That just says to me that they're not focused. Okay. And so you've got to be focused. You know, if you've got a client there that needs delivering and you've delivered on it before, why do you not want to continue developing that relationship and growing that from sort of, you know, a small thing into quite a big thing?

Okay. So last thing then, before we talk about, um, your own business and the journey that you've been on, um, what, what were some of the— so obviously you, you progressed the, the typical route, as you said. You then achieved a really big milestone in terms of, um, so how big was your team in the end, or how many people did you manage?

So in the end, so we had obviously lots of other, um, sort of managers within the team as well, but when I left my directorship post, there was around sort of 20 of us in total, 22, 23, you know, from joining reporting to here. Indirectly, everyone would have been sort of— so I was the overall director there with the other sort of main, main director as well. So I would have had responsibility for that.

Okay.

Which was, you know, which is, which is great honor, you know. I was very, very privileged to sort of got to that, that sort of level. Um, but we really worked hard to develop and get good people through the door. And, you know, there were some wonderful billers at the end of the day.

Um, so yeah, so two things that I'd be interested in that, just to get your perspective. Of one. Um, look, there'll be people listening that are good billiards, may want to do management, may not want to do management, but what were some of the key learnings that I'm sure you felt that when you started becoming a manager, started getting people under your wing, that you quickly learned that you had to change or adjust, that now looking back, like, yeah, I'd never manage people like that again, or whatever. Do you know what I mean? What are some of the key things around that?

Um, I think some of my management failures were, one, um, I've always been a bit of a control freak, and that's actually a bit of a bad thing when you're trying to be a manager because you can't you can't do the job for them.

Exactly.

You've got to let people learn from their own failures, you know. And that's actually where SEO was quite good for me. I learned from my own failures pretty quickly. So, you know, I was trying to do too much for them, you know, even if it's from drafting, uh, you know, their emails, or to, you know, listening into absolutely every call, you know, all of those things. But actually, you know, you take a step back, you've got to allow people to grow. And, you know, you see all of these things, you know, you hire smart people, you don't want to completely sort take all of that out of them. You want them to bring their own character, bring their own style, because you've got to have your own brand. So I think for me, I would have kind of let people express themselves more, and you shape and mold rather than dictate. I think that's the thing for me that I learned, um, you know, having been a bit of a control freak, having my own business, you know, wanting to build my own things. And I was like, well, why can't you do 300K? Why can't you do 400K? But it's not as simple.

So how did you start letting go of that then?

Was it a—

do you know what I mean? What did you start letting these people do that typically you would have maybe had an influence on, or held their hand through? Like, was it a process, or—

Yeah, I mean, well, we designed, you know, number of training. Once they'd gone through sort of training sessions and they, you know, you'd shadow them on enough candidate meetings, client meetings, and they'd shown enough, then you kind of almost let them free in, in many respects. And you're there as their counsel, you know, they can come to you if it's, look, I've got a real issue with trying to close this scenario, or, you know, I've got another agent agency that's, you know, battling in on this, this vacancy? How can we get more commitment on it? What— so it's more of the kind of technical brainstorming scenarios. Um, but yeah, once you've given them, you know, the fundamental basics, um, you've got to let them run with it and create their own style.

Yeah, yeah, I like it. Okay, and then the last thing then before we move on is, um, I'll be real. So you mentioned there that, um, yeah, real wanted to, to be at the director level, um, see what the business grew to um, had some really good people in the business. So like, through that process then, what were some of the two things really? What were some of the common sort of pitfalls that you saw in people that prevented them from going to the next level, right? And then on the flip side of that, what— when you did have some really high achievers in your business, what were the common things that you, you saw in them?

I think they both go hand in hand, and the answer is cutting corners.

Okay.

Um, because certain people will be aware, you know, people who can't get to the next level will, you know, back to the objection handling, will brush reservations under the carpet.

Yes.

Yeah. And everyone's guilty of that, and I was exceptionally guilty of that as well. You would kid yourself, I'm going to close this deal, and they didn't even know the candidate has other interviews on the go, you know, as a basic example.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think cutting corners and being a control freak of your own business is what you've got to be, you know, your own business. So you've got to know everything about your clients, everything about your candidates, and be able to influence them. Because without the information, you can't do that. So I think people who couldn't progress are the ones who cut corners. So they wouldn't push to get better commitment, they wouldn't pitch a retainer to their clients, they wouldn't go and meet their clients an extra time because they needed to, they wouldn't really qualify, they wouldn't ask the challenging questions, they wouldn't challenge their candidates because they're afraid of, you know, that confrontational element. You know, if you're professional and you approach things in the right way, and you're doing your job for them ultimately, um, you know, there's no harm in actually asking the challenging questions. Um, and I found people that, uh, brushed reservations under the carpet, who cut corners and didn't want to really finesse and improve by that 1% every day, lo and behold, they stay around the 180, um, the 200K mark.

That's a really good point.

Um, whereas the real high achievers, A, they wanted to improve day to day, and they were seriously committed, and they excellent control of everything.

Don't cut corners, people.

Don't cut corners. That's what my pt says to me as well. Cool.

No, I really like that. So, um, have you always wanted to have your own business then?

So yeah, that— it was, it was with a heavy heart really that I left. Um, 5 years is a long part of your recruitment journey, but I always had— and this is the thing I think you need to have— is a passion. It comes back to my point at the beginning of the, the podcast that I had a passion to set up my own business. And emulate what my grandfather did in the legal world. He was a very big role model for me. Yes. So he, um, as I say, he, he ran a very successful law firm in the 1950s. Leicester, where I'm from, bizarrely, was the second richest city in the UK, uh, during that time due to the commercial and hosiery trade. And so he had a very successful, you know, self-made, uh, legal practice that span out across the Midlands and had one of the largest outside of any other London law firm at the time. So, you know, that was a real— I had real admiration for that. And I always wanted to— and this comes back to my next risk that I took, uh, to want to have my own business. And so I had the passion, but of course I wanted to be good to my old employer. You know, I, I basically didn't want to go off and compete against somewhere I'd given 5 years of loyalty to, um, and, you know, held them in very high regard. So, you know, I moved into legal recruitment, you know, which all of my friends were sort of scratching their heads. You're a director, you've got the house, everything's going great. Why on earth would you want to move into, let alone set up a business, put your own skin in the game, into, uh, an area you don't really know much about?

Um, wow.

So that was a big, big risk. But of course there's a lot behind that in terms of research, strategy, and, you know, creating the right plan. But yeah, I guess the main drive was a passion, and there was a family kind of, um, emulation that I want and a legacy that I wanted to continue.

Okay, that's really interesting. And then, and then just to set the scene then, how long have you been in business now?

So now, so Cassoon Car was, um, incepted in April 2016, so we're sort of 3 and a bit years old, um, and yeah, growing day by day and it's going fantastically well right now.

Have you— and how many of you are there right now?

So there's 6 of us within the business currently, um, we obviously started with myself and my, my business partner.

So you started with on.

Exactly, yeah. So, and I think another tip for people, um, if you're thinking of turning recruiter into business owner, is you've got to have good people around you and you've got to have good mentors.

How the hell did you convince this person if you had no fucking idea about legal? And how did that happen then?

So we were actually, um, we were actually friends. So we were, we were friends previously, we'd followed each other's journeys, um, and basically we were, we were able to sort of sit down. And they were already in the legal market and had a setup, they had to retain certain business in the legal market, and one of the best headhunters I've ever met, and one of the best general kind of search people I've ever had the privilege of working with. And we shared a lot of the same values. So, you know, I needed a bit of a strategy when exiting. So, you know, I found a business partner through this relationship, and from there it's just grown exceptionally well. But I mean, don't get me wrong, I've had to work day and night, had to learn the market. Yes, of course, I grew up in my grandfather's father's law firm, age 15, doing the shitty photocopying. So I kind of saw what lawyers did, and I kind of knew about it, right? And I've always been interested in the law generally because I think it's such a fascinating market.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, there was strategy behind that.

Um, so was he— so was he on the tools with you, or was he just, uh, like, did he just support you to start the business?

Exactly, exactly. Real support, real support, and kind of, you know, genuine sort of, you know, co-founder and real, real help to the business. So, you know, without that, that definitely would have been a struggle. So I'm very grateful for that. And I've always been a big believer in kind of team and, you know, working together and having the right people around you and good mentors.

Yeah. Okay, so, um, fair to say then it was pretty cold?

Yeah, I mean, we're, we're basically, you know, in one of— every market's got it saturated, but legal recruitment, you know, there's a lot of legal recruitment agencies.

So one of the most common things that people ask me, right? And I'd be really interested to see how you, um, approach this then. Obviously you have the support and the chat that you're talking about there, which, which is amazing and really smart. So I guess, um, the most common thing that people, um, uh, want to understand, learn more about is also business development, right?

Yeah.

Well, two things really, which I know was one of the things you really want to touch on. So I'd really love to know as to sort of what your strategy was to go from, yeah, that those 5 years really fruitful relationship Yeah, now in this world of legal, you've got someone that obviously you've got a really good relationship with, obviously is going to add value from, from that side of things, surely. But obviously that's going to be brand new to you, right? Yeah. So there's that, and then through that comes with— comes the resilience piece, right? Because— so how, how— what was the strategy and how did you start approaching and building your client?

Well, again, back to my topic of work warm. So obviously through the relationship that I had, um, you know, there was a lot of kind of referrals and kind of introductions through that, which again I'm immensely grateful for. Um, and then research, research, research. You know, I had to kind of get my hands dirty and I mapped out the market, had to map out the market. You know, I'd be reading on Saturdays and, you know, if you want to do your own business, unfortunately, uh, well, it's— you can have a lifestyle business, absolutely, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you want to sort of business and to be in, you know, the top of your game, you've got to make some sacrifices. So, you know, Saturdays, Sundays, evenings, you I was researching, you know, and I was really mapping out the market and I was spotting trends and I was spotting where we could actually kind of enter the market and where we could be different and where we could add value. And, and so, you know, it was a lot of hard work. And you're absolutely right, resilience throughout my career. I think, you know, having that mental toughness, I think, is really, really important.

Okay.

Because there's always going to be highs and lows.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So before we go on to that, mapped out the market how the hell did you start getting clients then?

So I think again there was, um, an element of just being authentic. So, you know, the name above the door, Kusumkar, actually has a real meaning and we have a legacy. And, you know, the fact that— I guess it helped that I had almost got sort of, you know, 7 or 8 years experience as a recruiter. You know, I really understood how to do good recruitment. And once I'd also picked up the knowledge, um, and, you know, I'd had these warm contacts as well. Um, you know, I was able to do it, but I wasn't afraid to take risks. You know, I'd go and sit in front of, you know, partners in law firms and be able to sort of, you know, influence them through my skill sets that I'd had. Because I'd get tons of objections, you know, why should we use you, we've never heard of you, you know, what's your story, you know, why are you different, all of these things. But learn to love objections, right? So all of my technical skill set that I'd learned from over the years, I'd really worked hard to master, I was able to implement into, into my new business that helped me win clients, helped me kind of grow and develop from there. So that's my point to people, that recruitment is a very transferable skill set if you can really understand and how to actually adopt those. And don't be afraid to take risks.

Yeah, yeah. So did you— so was your, was your approach then to, um, yeah, try and maximize some of these crossover relationships, get yourself in front of some of these clients? So did you go clients first and then obviously start then trying to build a network of candidates, or—

No, um, because actually, and this is a key point, you've got to understand your market. Is your market client-driven or is it candidate-driven? And again, um, I'd actually been historically in more client-driven markets. Really? Um, yeah, whereas the legal market is undoubtedly a candidate-driven market. The candidate is king or queen.

Okay.

So, you know, and I understood that. So I understood that law firms, you know, law firms are interested in, of course, providing excellent legal services, to their clients, but at the same time making money, right? So if you can provide them— it's similar to recruiters. If you can provide them with a good fee generator, a good lawyer, then, you know, there's going to be appetite for them to buy, right? Similarly with recruitment firms. Someone can send me a great CV of a good recruiter that's got a proven track record. As long as they fit the cultural box, you know, and they're a good egg, the likelihood is we're probably going to be interested in meeting with them. So I really understood that, you know, the market was a candidate-driven market. So I built up my candidate networks so then I can go and talk to my clients with that product. So I think you've got to— well, you've got to be a good headhunter. That's point number one. So you've got to be able to headhunt. And again, when you say headhunt, what do you mean by that? So I think because that—

or what I visualize that— I wouldn't say when I was in recruitment I was a headhunter. I mean, so my visualization of a headhunter is— and you said there that the co-founder, whatever, was one of the best headhunters that you met or whatever. So what does that actually mean? Does that mean that you're calling people at their desk and saying, look, 'If you have this problem, I potentially have this solution for you. Let's speak after work.' Like, what does that actually mean?

And I think, by the way, people dress up the word headhunting.

That's what I mean.

Headhunting is an introductory call, could be an email, could be a WhatsApp. It's an introductory form of communication. That's my definition of headhunting. Okay, okay. Because people get really scared. It's like, 'We're doing headhunting hour now.' And I remember that when I was in some of the— back in the day, headhunting out. Oh, what does that mean? I'm really scared, I'm going to headhunt someone. Take the stigma away from it. All we do is we talk to people, we consult people, and we try and help people with that, further their careers, and we find solutions for our clients who are struggling with recruitment. I break it down very, very simply. So for me, it was about having sensible introductory conversations with key talent that was a demand for my— whether I knew there'll be a demand for potential clients so I can go and get clients.

So we're talking what, LinkedIn messages, emails, the normal, normal lot?

I think this is doing that, but it's going above and beyond, right? So I'd know where key events were. I would know where people were kind of watching and where people were going, because you can't just be the, the transactional unless you're sending a very— and there's nothing wrong with sending LinkedIn messages, emails, and, you know, but don't just send a generic email. Study their profile, you know, send a really, you know, tailored, detailed, thought-out, substantive message showing how you can add value.

Okay.

Because if you can't add value to someone, if you're just saying, are you interested in opportunities, you're working on a 1 in probably 1,000 response rate, right?

Yeah.

If you actually write to someone whose career, then, you know, so take— you're talking about take a step back, really think about how you can do things. And then like I said, go above and beyond. If you know your key target market where there's going to be demand has got an event, you've got to get yourself through the door. You've got to go out and network.

How can I get an invite?

Well, that's a good question. But if you think about it, you can actually quite easily get an invite. So this is that So, and that's how you brand yourself, okay? Because I don't— I believe now people need to be more than just recruiters. You need to be a, you know, you need to be a consultant, okay? And we have a thing at Kasum Khar is we work cradle to grave. So we work in placing candidates probably 3 or 4 times throughout their journey. Yeah, but, you know, actually adding value to the general marketplace. You know, we work in the legal industry, so we actually want to add value and, and give back to the legal industry. So, you know, be that in the form of article publications, be that in the form of, you know, hosting, sponsoring events, do that in terms of doing thought leadership.

Yeah.

Um, you know, do that in terms of, you know, general other campaigns, podcasts, all of these great things. Because now you can't just be a recruiter, you've got to be able to be seen as someone— okay, I want to go and speak to X because they're just an expert in my area.

How is that going to make me more money?

How's that going to make you more— well, it depends what, um, you define as what, what's important to you. Because I think for me it's important to make money, but it's also to have a good recognized brand and reputation. Because reputation, if you build up your reputation over the years, the money will also come.

Okay.

I think that's very, very important. So I think if people actually see you similarly to, you know, what, what I see from a lot of people, if they're, um, you know, really investing in their career.

Yeah.

And being seen as a real somebody that does more than just recruitment. Yeah, I believe that will work tenfold. We have a thing as well here where we say contacts are great but relationships pay. And I think that's very important. Everyone can love and know everybody, right? But actually, any people like, oh, it's not what you know, it's who you know— to an extent, it's who knows you and who you have a relationship with. Okay, so you know, that's why it's important.

And that transfers to— yeah, that transfers to you then long term.

But I think it's important to be in an environment where because some— I can understand what you're saying about making money, and it's just—

I'm just saying, yeah, okay, it sounds great, but like, how does that increase my billings? Do you know what I mean? That's why I asked that.

Absolutely. But I think that's where you have to move away from having a transactional view to having like, you know, I want to be a consultative, longer-term, relationship-driven recruiter and understand that I may not get the win straight away, you know. I may not break down that—

you can't have that paying forward mentality.

Exactly. So, and that— but it comes back to when you're planning your days, I'd be amazed if every recruiter in London is genuinely planning their days meticulously and being selfish with their time, because they should be. Because all of this other stuff, when you say, is also outside of hours, right? Because your core time, you're going to be working smart, you're going to be working small, um, you know, working warm. So all the other stuff, the brand building and everything else, should just be an additional because you care about your career. That's my viewpoint.

Yeah, yeah, okay, that's what it's about. Okay, that's really interesting. Um, really interesting point. Look, I mean, that's something that I'm really passionate about, and I think, um, yeah, everyone listening right now has such a unique opportunity to approach recruitment like that. As you said, I like how you rounded that up, that everything that you spoke about there is just only to enable to do more work, because warm work—

but it's, it also gives you more of an interest point, because believe it or not, people don't just like to talk about recruitment. You know, if you're looking from a business development strategy and you're looking at ways to communicate with your clients and you're looking to try and add value to them. Every agency's got candidates. Yeah, every agency's got candidates. But what can you tell them about the market? What can you tell them about the trends? What can you tell them about their competitors? What can you tell them that's going to add value to them over and beyond just providing the best candidates in the marketplace? And that is where you'll build a long-term trusting relationship.

Yeah. Okay. Really smart. So One thing that, um, I definitely, yeah, I wanted to get your experience in. So I guess, so first year, how was that like? Did you obviously— billings, that go okay? Or like, what, what's been the— how has that been?

Yeah, so again, I think, and it's through blood, sweat, and tears. So, um, you know, we are a growth on growth, year on year business.

So, um, so what does that mean?

So that means, A, it means I was prepared to put skin in the game from, from year one. So, uh, initial investments repaid plus profit in year one.

Yeah.

Uh, year uh, 15% growth on year 1, and year 3, uh, 33% growth. So we've had double-digit growth year on year, um, since starting. And that's because we've, we've fundamentally worked to the basic principles of what— yeah, exactly. And I think otherwise, if you have such a scattergun and lack of focus, lack of strategy— and I was guilty of that as a recruiter at my junior few years where I was just not focused, then, you know, lo and behold, you're busy but you can't break past a certain level.

Yeah, yeah.

But my, my role now, and why I was keen to get involved in, in these sort of discussions, is it's— you move away from recruiter to business builder. Um, and recruitment owners, yes, um, you know, there's an element of being involved in recruitment, but it's ultimately, you know, you've got to bring the best out of the people that work for you and with you, you know. So I genuinely care about everyone who works here and wants them to do very, very well.

Yeah.

Um, so I think you've got to hire people that you want to work with. Yeah. You know, culture is very, very important. Um, and then you've got to think about, right, how can you drive the business day by day by day by day? Um, so yeah, I've enjoyed my personal journey, and it's not been— look, it's been ups and downs.

I was going to say, because obviously that's, that's like honestly an amazing achievement. But I get messages of people that they're just one-man band, they're sitting in their living room right now or sitting in the home office, like 'Yeah, this is fucking horrible. This is way more tougher than I thought it was. This is really testing my resilience.' So like, let's just talk a bit about that because like, that's amazing that you've achieved that, but what were some of the real tough times and how did you, um, push through those?

Um, I've had lots of tough times. And look, even day to day you have your, you know, your, your struggles. But I think one of the tips I'd give people is don't just sit there in your living room. Find mentors. You know, I've been very proactive in, you know, putting my network and getting into my network and really finding new mentors that can help inspire, educate me, and share their journeys. And it's not just necessarily recruitment business owners, mentors, mentors in different, you know, maybe in sales and insurance. So finding people who've got a proven track record of being successful, because mindset's very, very important. Yeah, you know, I've, you know, we've all been there. You're having a poor month, or you've just started your business, you're in your living room, you're having a bit of a downer, you're doubting yourself whether you can do it, you know, don't just do that. You know, actually go out there, be proactive, network, find mentors, and get sort of, you know, get some ideas and really kind of upskill yourself. I find a lot of people back to the commute and coast and stagnate. You've got to find something new. If something's not working, yes, you can kind of, you know, have a bit of a down day, but don't stay down. You know, you've got to be proactive. So, you know, go out there and, you know, speak to good credible people that can actually help you.

Okay. I couldn't agree more. I mean, obviously I'm, what, 10, 10 weeks into starting my own business. I've got 2 mentors. Yeah, um, definitely helped. And I've had a couple other people that have really been helpful. But I think again, let's sort of break that down a bit because people listening, it's like, okay, definitely mentor is such a quite common word now, right? And it's something I'm definitely really passionate about. Um, how— what's your advice to approach people and find— because yeah, it's great saying go find these people, but where the fuck do I find them? How do I approach them? Them. No doubt these people are busy, do you get what I mean? So what's been your experience in finding and approaching these people?

Yeah, I think, um, again, comes back to being proactive. I think you've got to be proactive. And it's also— I don't just think you should find someone who's been successful, you've got to make sure that they're right for you. So, you know, if you actually follow— there's so much stuff publicly available now, it comes back to cutting corners. You know, you can actually cut corners in terms of finding mentors. You can easily find anyone that will give you some advice. But if you actually want to research and find someone that you think can add value to you, um, then target to them, and then you can write to them or call them with genuine passion and enthusiasm for why you want them to be your mentor. Um, I think that's very, very important.

Um, so how would you approach that?

So I think it's of interest. So the way I've approached it, actually, I, I believe— I guess it's a recruiter in me— I'm continuously working. So one of my, my recent mentors is actually through, uh, for a family connection, okay, um, on my wife's side, um, someone who's run a, a successful business. And kind of why, why I'm using him particularly for a mentor is he's someone who's scaled and exited a business, um, you know, and done it on multiple occasions and, and sort of had a lot of challenges along the way and done it from an organic level. And obviously that's aspirations that I have, yeah, um, and, and look to do. So, you know, I've been able to sort of talk their language and, and sort of of, you know, I've made sure I've muscled myself in on certain little events, or even family things, you know. It's going the extra mile, it's being prepared to, you know, drive 150 miles up to know that they're going to be at a potential, you know, event where you can have a kind of one-on-one chat with them. Um, but, you know, research. There's loads of things online, there's loads of events you can go to, there's lots and lots of things. You can talk to people. If you're a recruitment owner, you can talk to other recruitment owners. There's no harm in that, you know, talking to people. So yeah, Basically being proactive.

And then how, how, and then how is it definitely— how has it most impacted you then? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, what— because what, what are the— what's the typical type of relationship? Just again, out of complete curiosity, maybe people listening are interested. Like, does this then— you tend to check in with these people once a month? Do you meet them? Do you then say, look, these are the challenges I'm having? Is it something you can always check in with? Like, what's the typical relationship and how is it— where would you say, how has it most impacted acted you in running your own business?

I think it's, um, most of mine tend to be on a sort of formal quasi-informal basis. So it's more about, um, being there. I think, you know, I— if you're going to find a mentor, I actually find someone who's actually potentially going to have a genuine care for you.

Okay.

You know, sometimes just being able to pick up the phone and say, you know, I had this strategy, it's blown out of the water, it's all gone wrong— actually just being a voice, you know, someone you can talk to and have an outlet. Um, but more structured than that, I think it's actually about having, um, you know, some sort of regularity. So I tend to have monthly kind of progressive, you know, discussions, talks around subjects, areas, you know, identifying problems and going to them with solutions, not just asking, can you help me? It's like, these are my ideas, how do you think we can improve them? You know, that's the other thing, you know, even when I do my own mentoring, when I'm mentoring people in recruitment or in other industry as I say, don't just come to me expecting answers, come with some ideas and let's actually discuss how we can improve them. I think that's very, very important.

So how has it impacted you then, would you say, in a nutshell?

Firstly, it's been very good for mental well-being in terms of actually keeping positive and keeping focused. So I think it's been very, very good for that. It's helped me in terms of increasing profitability and productivity of team members, and it's made it fun. You know, it's good learning about and hearing other people's journeys and actually implementing new things. Because then I love learning. I think, you know, in any industry you've got to love to learn. Um, and so I love learning new things and being open to learning because, you know, when I, when I first started, I was kind of shut off to the whole idea of, oh, you know, I know what I know now, I don't need to know anything more. But that's so wrong. Yeah, continuous learning. So, uh, that's how it's really helped me.

Okay, so before we finish then, mate, mindset. Yeah, mention it a couple of times.

Yeah, what sort of—

what's been your journey with that then? And how clearly the mentorships helped, like, what's been your journey with that and how have you got better to cultivate a mindset that serves you rather than, yeah, leaves you just being negative all day and not being able to be productive and not focused? Like, how have you cultivated that and what's been your journey with that?

I mean, it's been, it's been very interesting because I always thought whether recruitment was for me, you know, when I had the bad first year and I was just, you know, I was doubting myself, um, most definitely. I think sometimes pinch yourself. I think people beat yourselves up, you know, because you are in a competitive— you know, recruitment tends to be a competitive environment. But take a step back and think, actually, what have I achieved? You know, if you actually have achieved, you know, celebrate those successes. So I think the one thing I always say to people is celebrate the little wins. Yeah. You know, to re— because maybe doing a deal or that annual target is so far off and you're having a bad month. But actually, you know, celebrate, you know, if you break into a new client or, you know, you win a candidate over that you haven't been able to for the last 2 months. So for me, whatever it is, I've always kind of celebrated the mini wins to kind of keep me eternally positive. And so, so important, surround yourself with positive people, you know. And that's as far to say as, you know, if you've got a, you've got a very—

if you've got, if you've got an office for negative people, how do you do that?

Leave. That would be one of my— well, I mean, you can either try and change the culture and try and be positive, but there's nothing worse than being in a negative environment with negative people because that's, um, you know, there's a thing about sort of, you know, group vine and, you know, how that negativity can—

yeah, definitely.

So no, I'd take action of your own career, you know. If you're— if you feel like you're in a negative environment, it's bringing you down, either do your absolute best to try and change it and raise sit with management and with directors and try and change it around, or leave. Yeah, very simple.

I think that's— no, I think that's fair. I think definitely, I mean, especially in the world of recruitment, right, it's, it's bloody difficult sometimes. And then if, if you're even— then if, if then people feeding you even more negativity, yeah, in the sort of ups and downs that you're experiencing, then that's difficult, right?

I had another thing tip from one of my old bosses that I thought was great as well, and they always had had a kind of shut-off mindset. So every day we used to say, shoot from a 10. But, you know, shoot from a 10 every day. But the way they did that was, you know, no matter what was going on in their personal life, you know, maybe they're, you know, they're having a relationship issue, or maybe they've got a health issue, or whatever. But whenever they came on their commute to work, because they weren't a commute-and-coast person at all, uh, they would say, once I go past that red post box past the office, on the way to the office, I forget about everything and I'm on game show. I'm, you know, it's like when we used to play sport back in the day, when you cross the whitewash, you come to play, right? Or when you lace them up, you come to play. So whatever's going on, you need to be able to have a blockout mindset. So I actually have, every day when I come to work, when I go past a particular building, whatever's going on in my life, I shut it off. And it's like, I need to shoot from a 10 today. So if I can shoot from a 10 today and achieve my goals then I can be productive. Because if all I'm doing is dwelling on all those negative thoughts, it's bringing me down, I'm unproductive, I'm influencing others with negativity. It's just a really, really bad place to be. So that's just a tip that I got off someone that I use in my day-to-day.

Yeah, no, I think that's great. And what you're saying there is that every single day, be present.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? That's, that's pretty much what you're saying.

It's like take opportunities.

Yeah, yeah. So it's like every day when you come to work, it generally— obviously it's cliché, but it is a new day, but it's another Yeah, it's a brand new opportunity to shoot from the hip, as you said.

Exactly. You know, ask your director to go and shadow a meeting that you'd never dream of asking him to do. You know, ask someone to go push yourself, you know, push yourself to develop day to day, and you'll get more satisfaction from it as well.

Yeah, wicked, mate. Well, look, before I finish, I always like to ask, what's, what's going on in your world, mate, that's worth shouting about? What are you excited about?

Well, aside from Kassoon Car, which I'm really, really excited about, we're on a, you know, a genuine journey and it's been an absolute whirlwind in a positive way. What else going on in my world? I'm trying to get back fit. I used to play quite a lot of sport competitively, so I had a lot of friends that, you know, represented the country in rugby and cricket and did very, very well. And that's actually been sort of mentors from afar that have actually gone on to succeed. So I'm trying to get back fit.

How are you finding that? Because honestly, I think in the last 10 weeks So I've always been like, all right, yeah, I'm not gonna completely—

you're looking in good shape today.

No, I'm okay, but like, I'm just classic. I'll just easily fluctuate. 6, 8 weeks I'll be on there, and then it will take like 2 weeks where I'm not that on it, and then I'm back to fucking square one. So like, how was it? Have you found— obviously maybe even in recruitment, but also just running your own business— that I've definitely found out the last 10 weeks that that has definitely, not consciously, but it's just ended up sort of sacrificing a bit, and I found it just more difficult. Maybe it's just an easy excuse, but like, how have you found that? That must have been— has it been a bit of a challenge then? As you—

it has been a bit of a challenge, but you know, health is wealth at the end of the day. So you've got to be able to, you know, you've got to be able to be dedicated to doing it. So it's like everything, you've got to set yourself goals and recruitment that drives you. We talked about the internal drive, you know. I've set myself a goal that I want to get to a certain weight and I get to a certain fitness again and really enjoy it. And the other thing, it's back to work again but we're doing some really high-profile events, um, coming up that I'm really excited about in our, in our market.

How, um, quite a few people mentioned events. Yeah. How have they impacted your business?

So in a very positive way. Back to the— you said to me, well, I'm a recruiter, how can I get into, you know, a networking event? Well, like I've told, you know, we discussed about building a brand and actually getting your name through a door through not being known as a recruiter. Um, you know, they've impacted our business because the two events that we're doing, we're the only and we're the first legal recruitment agency to actually be involved in the societies.

Oh wow.

Uh, because they typically say no recruiters, but because they see us as different, they understand our message, our journey. And so it's— they see us as trusted advisors and they see us as actually consultants and more than just recruiters. So it's impacted us in terms of our branding, being known as, um, you know, a very relationship-driven kind of, you know, advisory outfit. So it's been very, very positive, and that's led to more referrals, more recommendations, and more placement.

The bottom line.

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, exactly. It's got, it's got, it's got the referrals, it's got the place candidates.

That's amazing, man. I think, yeah, no, hearing more and more about, um, events, and I think it's so— I think I just really believe that recruiters are in such a unique position to facilitate great events, put some amazing people in the room. If that's from a candidate perspective, being able to have access to some brilliant decision makers and senior people in businesses that you know that they never dreamed of getting access to, or learning about them, or hearing their perspective of the marketing, these things. I think recruiters are in such a great position to facilitate that.

There's so many resources out there now as well to make it, um, to make it happen. Very true. So the other thing I'm trying, um, trying to publicize is now job specs are old-fashioned.

Job specs are old-fashioned.

So why are we not getting our clients to, you know, go— when you go and meet them, let's do some video specs, right? We're doing video interviews. Why are we not flipping it the other side, you know, and actually showing off our clients you know, and actually that sort of imagery and stuff like that. There's so many new quirky innovative things. I mean, that's not overly innovative, but there's so much more people can do with resources available now. Just go for it.

Yeah, nice. I like it. So, question I always like to ask, mate, um, before we finish is, um, if you could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they take on your advice, they would listen, they'd start using your advice tomorrow, What would you say?

If you see this as a career, I would generally say never, ever, ever, ever give up. I think that's, you know, you've got to be prepared to go through the, through the hard times. And then as an extension of that is you've got to be prepared to improve yourself day by day. So if you're coming to work day by day and you're not looking at how you're improving and you're hitting the same KPIs or you're hitting the same targets, then you've got to really take a step back and analyze that and really think about how you can improve. Um, and I always say surround yourself by the best people. Never be the best person in the room, like I'm not today, the master of podcasts next to me. Um, but in all seriousness, you know, surround yourself by very, very aspirational, you know, strong people that are high achievers, because that'll bring the best out in you.

Amazing. It's been a pleasure.

Cool. Thanks ever so much.

Cheers, mate.