Rory Ferguson - Creating a culture of learning, and investing in your leaders to scale

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm very excited to be joined by Rory Ferguson, who joined the recruitment industry in the 1990s after serving as an army officer. And over the last two decades, Rory has led and grown multiple teams across several brands such as Harvey Nash, the Hydrogen Group, Lawrence Harvey Group, Petroplan, and more recently RP International. Rory is extremely passionate about successful leadership in recruitment and in the recent months has been helping business owners maximize their recovery and growth potential by delivering executive coaching, performance mentoring, and strategic advice to recruitment leaders and emerging talent. Rory, thank you for coming on the podcast.

Hishem, wow, what an intro. I'm not sure where I go from there, but yeah, thank you very much. Good to join you. So thanks for asking me.

No, I'm excited to unpack the journey that you've, uh, been on, but where we always like to, to start is, in, in your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

Wow. Um, okay, so, um, the people that I've worked with, uh, that have been most successful, I guess the most sort of the common denominators are they're massively goal-driven, okay, and it doesn't matter what that goal is. You know, when I joined, it was all about the cash. I think it's less about that now potentially, but they need to be goal-driven. Some of the best people I've worked with, you know, as an example, some guy wanted to set up a bar in southern Spain at some point. Now I can, you know, I can use that, there's someone's motivation, as long as they've got that, because Recruitment is great, it's awesome, everyone loves a high-five, earning loads of commission, that's fantastic, and when it's bad, it's really bad, you know, it's tough, so you need that sense of a goal, I think, to bring you back in and keep you focused in the bad times as well as the good times. I think expertise is probably my next piece, so important to invest the time to be a credible expert in what you do. That helps with credibility, it also helps with your network. I think people always talk about hard work, that's almost a given, and I think in the early years there aren't many shortcuts. So, look, if you've got a goal, if you're prepared to be an expert, if you're prepared to put the hard miles in, and if you're prepared to listen to those around you and absorb and work to a process that that is proven, then that's probably the ingredients that make up, that I can think of, that probably make up the best recruiters out there.

Right, so as I was saying to you before we started this, I haven't had a ton of people from the Harvey Nash brand, so yeah, I guess it'd be great if you could just, obviously you joined that company in 1994, It's gone on to be a huge name in the recruitment industry. So I guess, yeah, before I start talking about, yeah, early days for you in recruitment, what did that company look like when you joined it? How big was it? Like, I don't know, what did it look like?

Massively, massively different. I mean, I joined, I think it was 40 to 50 people when I joined. We were in an office in Covent Garden, and I think a lot of that size and shape of that business and how I then saw it grow was part of my, you know, that generated my desire to then go try and go on similar journeys in the future, actually. It punched well above its weight. I mean, I remember we were always trying to take on the likes of Michael Page and companies like that, It was a company that had a real sense of, I guess, purpose, and we felt we were on a journey. You know, it was privately owned. There were originally 4 owners of that business, but there were 3 that really went on and played an executive role within it, and it was great being part of that. It was an amazing journey. I was an IT contract recruiter, into investment banking. And yeah, we felt, we genuinely felt at that point that we could be the best in the market.

Yeah, I love that. And so just for context, you stayed there for 12 years before you left. So I guess you were talking a bit about it there, but what I'm really curious about is, what the sort of— and you're talking about there in terms of you felt like you had a purpose and they, they had high standards, it seemed like. So from your point of view, looking back, what do you think were the sort of 3 non-negotiables of the sort of Harvard Nash culture that everyone abided by? Do you think that sort of really— what were the ingredients of that culture, do you think, that everyone followed and bought into that, yeah, gave it the sort of real recipe to, to become a great, great business?

Yeah, okay. Well, we were really into brands, you know, brands was massively important. I mean, one of the unique things about that brand, certainly at that point, was we were working executive search at a senior level, so we had excellent profile, we had the ear of decision makers within companies, So there was always a big play on representing the brand appropriately. Good packaging, I guess, and everything that we did was really important. Hard work was the second one. We were all grafting, you know, back then, you know, everyone was putting a big shift in. I did. I remember my managers now and the guys I sat with, I can visualize it now, and, you know, I was doing probably a couple of nights a week till 9 researching, mapping companies, so hard work was a given. And I think it was a— there was no fixed sort of clever process, there was no kind of sophisticated way of working as such, but it was very success-driven, so we really celebrated success. And there was quite a good team attitude towards that, so We really celebrated the success and the growth of the company. I think everyone, you felt that everyone who was in that business, even though we weren't, we felt like shareholders. We felt like we were on that journey with the owners. Those are probably the 3 things for me. It was a great journey to be a part of them.

Yeah, so I'm interested in that. So let's just, let's just sort of put a bit of a magnifying glass on what that final point that you just said, because I feel like in, especially over the last year, I think that, that sort of purpose piece, or like me feeling like I'm someone that's really playing for the logo and that's really important for me, and the company logo that I play for is really important to me, which means that when I'm feeling really down and it's just me in my living room calling people, getting rejected dealing with this sort of trials and tribulations of being a recruiter, but this time I'm on my own. I haven't got the sort of culture to soak up, to pick me back up. Yeah, I guess you can draw on all your experience here, but I guess I'm just really interested in that because I think that's what sets apart sort of good companies or great companies, right? Where you can actually really get your people bought into like being part of that journey. So I guess what, like, I don't know, how does that happen? Or like how Maybe where do people go wrong? Or I don't know, like, how can companies actually tap into that? Because I don't know how many companies actually successfully do that, but there's companies that come to mind in the industry that I think it does feel like, like, all the team are like so excited to be on this journey and they're playing for the logo. Yeah, I think that's, that's really difficult for a lot of recruitment business owners to truly achieve. So you clearly felt that, you're still speaking about those days. So, so far Yeah, you're still speaking about it in that way. So I guess, I don't know, what comes up for you when you think how companies have achieved that or do achieve that?

I would probably remember less of that detail from Harvey Nash, but I certainly subsequently worked with businesses that did it really well and I think the main thing, the emphasis is on the leadership really to set a vision or share a point on a map that represents where we're trying to get to. I think if you can get people on that journey, however good you are at a job, there's always a distinction between skill and will. Will is always so much more powerful And if you're able to get people on a journey and they really believe in you, they believe in where you're trying to get to, and this is in all walks of life actually, I definitely had this in the army too at a very early age, if people buy into that sense of where you're trying to get to, you very quickly, that's unbeatable. People get on the bus, they get on the journey, and that's where you unlock things like discretionary effort. You've got a certain type of individual that is there because they have to be, you know, they're doing the 9 to 5, whatever it is they're doing, or they're in recruitment terms, it might be 9 to 6 or whatever, they're doing their calls, they're doing what they have to, but as soon as you can unlock discretionary effort, it's the kind of the day job plus, so yeah, so it's the kind of the stuff that they're going to do in addition, you know, and that I think is the secret sauce of a lot of these companies that have that have really nailed growth and progression, particularly over the last 5 years, is that engagement piece, how you get people on the journey and how you get everyone, you know, busting their guts daily to make a difference.

Yeah, I love that phrase, discretionary effort. I think that that's, yeah, that's really interesting. So I guess let's flip this then on what, where do you think people go wrong and sort of lead people not getting bought into them? So you've spoken about Yeah, leadership and yeah, having a vision and these types of things. What typically drives people the other way and sort of, yeah, pushes them in the way where they don't buy into it, or typical things that stop them from tapping into that discretionary effort in their teams?

Yeah, so I think some of those things, as you'd expect, are sort of the direct opposite of what we've talked about, and there's probably a couple of other things as well. I know people get really disengaged, and I've seen this throughout actually in my career, where I think in recruitment for middle management, which is potentially the most important tier in any business, you know, your middle management are the guys who are the difference between generating scale and not, and that's through performance and it's generating future leaders as well. And when you've got a cohort at that level that are just driving inputs, as in they're driving activity but it doesn't connect to outputs, you know, I think that's where things start to fall down. I think if you're able to start with a goal, work out what your outputs are, and then relate your inputs to that in terms of driving that activity and everything, then great. But I think people get exhausted by focusing constantly on a short-term goal, so this is what we're trying to do today, this is what we're trying to do this week, they might look as far as a month. I think if you can give people a sense of reconnecting, well, this is where we're trying to get to by the half year, guys, and this is where we're trying to get to by the end of the year, you know, even that, that's still not a massive projection, but at least you're taking people's face out of the day-to-day and you're reconnecting them with that sense of purpose and why we're doing that. So I think that's a fairly key one, people feeling a sense of what they're doing is making a difference to a bigger goal. Yeah, certainly one thing.

Yeah, no, it's interesting you say that because having spoken to a lot of recruitment managers and leaders over the past couple of months, something that they've had to learn— and this has been quite common, I had a chat with someone today about this and like we were talking about how they've sort of learned to get the best out of their team in the sort of in the, yeah, strange and different circumstances we found ourselves in. And yeah, the common thing that they've said is that in their meetings they don't talk about numbers, they don't talk about the inputs. We're talking about they don't— they learned to not— maybe before in their reviews or monthly things, they would have been the main things they would have focused on, like how many, how many interviews you got this month for, how How many clients you agreed terms with and these things. And actually it seems like, yeah, that it's learning that actually, no, we need to not talk about that and talk about how can I help you get to where you need to? And like you said, reminding them, it's what you just said. It's about, look, this is where we are today. Let's talk about maybe the areas that we can improve, things that you did well. Let's talk, let's use this time to talk about where we're going. On this journey rather than, yeah, talk about the KPIs you missed or the KPIs that you did hit, right?

Yeah, I think just to set some context within that, I would never disregard KPIs or inputs, okay? They have a role to play. You know, it's a bit like Lewis Hamilton going out and doing his practice laps or his qualification and you saying, we're not going to give you any splits, we're not going to give you any segment times, we're not, you know, we're not going to give you any lap times. So you need something there to ensure that you're on track, you're going in the right way. But I don't think you want to have a disproportionate focus on that, is what I'm saying. Yeah, I think the key thing is if you can just, you know, make it outcome orientated, then, you know, that's the way ahead.

Yeah. So I know we've ended up talking a bit about leadership here, but I'm interested to hear about sort of Rory, the the recruiter, right? So, okay, what I'm always interested in— so you spoke about Harvey Nash, 40-50 person company when you joined, and by the time you, you left, you, yeah, joined as a trainee but then progressed to sort of leadership director level before you, um, left. So I guess what I'm always intrigued about is that you're, you're, you're in a very competitive environment, right? Not only with your competitors in your market but competitive internally. Right?

Yeah.

So what, what I want to know, sort of in looking back, like, why, why do you think you was able to be the person that got the promotion and not your peers? Like, why was you the person that was able to, to, yeah, achieve the progression that you wanted to and, and grab those opportunities internally with both hands? Because look, I think a lot of people that— a lot of recruiters that listen to this, and a real common driver for people is progression, right, in, in their careers. So, and I think sometimes What we always talk about here is this sort of learning that, yeah, if you're really serious about it, then you have to be accountable to getting it right. And that goes more than just delivering on your performance and then expecting that your manager is going to go, do you want this promotion or do you want this? Right. So I'm always interested in that, particularly in environments which have ended up being extremely high standards. You're in a business that would have grown so much. So what Why do you think you were able to progress and gain those promotions rather than some of your peers?

Okay, so I was personally always hungry to progress. I wanted to get on, I wanted to earn cash, and I think there were a few of us that, if I think back to that time, where that was almost our sole driver was, you know, earning what we could. Career progression probably came as a result of that. My background, I guess, in the Army and leading people probably helped just in terms of a— from a confidence perspective and the ability to get people on board with a goal and a journey and try and motivate and get people moving. So when I made that move from being a consultant in into managing, you know, one person, two people, then teams, then several teams and divisions and businesses, that was probably a key part of it. I genuinely don't recall at that time there being any particular sophistication in terms of my approach. I didn't get any input, formal input, into my leadership development until later. I think I became Look, I'm still absolutely a work in progress here, but I had a step change in terms of my ability, you know, probably after I left Harvey Nash. The moving into a different sector, for example, forces you to ask, be much more inquisitive, ask more questions, not being an expert in something, so you can't use your market knowledge to sort of paper over cracks. Those are the kinds of things that really unlocked my potential in terms of asking better questions, therefore being a better influencer because I was listening more, better coaching. Those were probably the things that probably had a far greater influence on me in terms of my progression, and then going on from there to do bigger meatier roles like Group MD at Lawrence Harvey and CEO and COO and things like that. Yeah, I mean, Harvey Nash, great journey. It was a long time ago, Hishem, so I'm kind of picking my brains to give you stuff of real value, but it was really about really grafting. I think the thing that we always did— I should have mentioned this earlier— that was drummed into us was that there was a real difference between being a recruitment consultant and a recruitment agent. Consultants consult and agents transact. So we were always trying to seek partnership wherever we could. And I think one of the challenges for people in this market, particularly in the UK right now, I think it's slightly different internationally, is that especially with the speed now, with increased technology and tools and the competition of on-site teams and RPO, you know, it's a struggle sometimes to create distinction between being a transactional recruiter, you know, almost becoming an administrator, and actually pulling your head out of that and really influencing through being a good consultant.

Yeah, love that. So let's dive into what you just shared there, because this was actually one of the questions that I wrote down on sort of preparation for this, and it's something that came from a recruiter. And the question is basically, yeah, it'd be interesting to find out around how you managed consultants in a division where you hadn't worked before as a consultant.

Yeah, okay.

So just because I think that, yeah, I think that's just so interesting, right? So I think people listening to this may find themselves in that position, or they may have a leadership opportunity but it's in an organization and then the market they haven't sort of, yeah, worked in before. Because as you know, typical route is if I'm a tech recruiter, construction recruiter, then I end up leading a construction team or whatever, right? So yeah, yeah, well, it'd be great if you could talk about some of those learnings or how you had to adapt you had to learn the hard way?

So look, I would encourage anyone who is making a career out of moving into that leadership space to try and work in a sector they're not familiar with, and whereas on paper it might seem quite daunting because you're lacking things like market knowledge, a network, credibility, actually what it really enhances is your need to play to the strengths of other people around you, If I think, as a leader, if you always feel you need to be the best person in the room, that's quite limiting. So one of the key learnings for me was identifying, okay, well, who are the key players within the business? You know, what do they know? What can they help with? If we're talking about new markets, if we're talking about looking at existing markets that we're in, How can we challenge some of those things? So getting input from the experts around you is key. You go into a business like that with zero assumption. If I was to go straight into another— actually, this is an error on my part, for example, when I made that first move from Harvey Nash into my first business, smaller business, which was the JM Group, I went in there knowing loads about technology, so I was making loads of assumptions about the kinds of markets we should be in and stuff like that. Actually, by going into a market that you don't know, you don't make those kinds of assumptions. You take time, you're really invested in talking to clients, spending loads of time talking to clients about what their needs are, what they see, how the market's going to unfold. Playing to the strengths of others, I think, is key on that, asking good questions and relying on your core management and leadership experience just to get the best out of that situation as you go through that journey yourself of understanding more and becoming more of an expert. That was a really, really good few years for me personally in terms of moving into a different sector, which also took me internationally. I'd never worked the international markets before, so there were a few things sort of going on. Different personalities moving into a different business, that was challenging as well. So there was loads of stuff happening, but yeah, look, if you've got clear purpose, as we did, you know, we really put the hammer down at that time and became, in my view anyway, of course I'm biased, but we were definitely in terms of the leading specialist recruiter in our space at that time. You know, we were well up there across Europe, Middle East, and Africa. Um, I hope that helps. I don't know if I've answered the question.

No, no, that does. No, yeah, no, that does. I guess what, what just came up for me, what I was interested— like, so two things. So one, when you went into— let's just— yeah, let's just focus on maybe, let's just say, the hydrogen group for a second.

Yeah.

When you went into that organization What did you make sure you didn't do to get off on the bad foot? Because I think, I think this, I think that's what a lot of people are worried about. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, I think everyone's been in there where, yeah, I've, I've been working at an organization for a period of time, they hire a manager externally, and yeah, they come in and yeah, try and sort of let everyone know that they mean business and they're the, they're the leader or manager, whatever, do you know what I mean? So I guess, I don't know, yeah, looking back, was there anything that you completely avoided to make sure that maybe the stuff that I got, uh, it's definitely stuff I got wrong.

Um, uh, and, and I think when I was hired by the CEO, we talked about some of the challenges, um, that we would have. And I think the key thing was that that was a successful business. Uh, I was the first director-level hire into that business. And so integration, my integration into that team was important. And I think that bit, because they were all, you know, good people and were very welcoming to me. So actually that worked quite well. If I made a mistake, Hishem, it was, I think I was trying to force, I was trying to make a difference. I was trying to almost just to show them and justify my seat at the table by almost trying to do too much too quickly, by trying to make changes to things that weren't necessarily broken. And I think actually, to be fair, the CEO took me to one side and said, look, you've got to focus on trying to understand before being understood. So really get, you know, understand what the good stuff is in a business. So you're not trying to change the world, you're not trying to reinvent the wheel. So understand what is awesome about that business. Every business will have it. Every business will have that bit, whatever it is or however small it is, doesn't matter, that you can build on and grow, rather than just trying to bluster in and go, look at me, why don't we do this, why don't we do that, why don't we do this. And I think if I had my time again, certainly, or anyone going into that, it would be, look, definitely spend the time getting to know your peer group, get really clear on your expectations. So what does the first 90 days look like? What does the first year need to look like? So everyone knows where you are, you know what success looks like, etc. But, but, you know, go in there, don't assume that you need to change the world in your first month, you know, understand, ask good questions, understand what the good stuff is and build on that.

Yeah, love that.

Okay.

And then the next thing that was coming up for me, because I think this is probably something you've had to learn, but, or, or you've, or you've dealt with in the past, so I've seen this in various places, sort of online forums and just conversations that I have. Like, if you were to ask most recruiters, what was the main reason you left your last agency or job, right? There'll be a few different reasons, but one that would definitely be up there, top 3 I'd say, is poor leadership.

Yeah.

Micromanagement.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm just like curious to hear from you because you just spend so much time in this space. Like, why do you think leaders are unaware, or are they unaware, that they're micromanaging?

Yeah, no, I think that's a really, really good point, and it's definitely something as an industry that I'd like to see us do better. And I think a lot of managers manage like that because they were managed like that, and you almost need to break the cycle. And one of my hopes is that, you know, one of the good things that hopefully can come out of, you know, this horrific 12 months that we've had and people working from home is that, I think, not just in recruitment actually, you hear a lot of leaders that prism has almost shifted to being more outcome-orientated than input-orientated. So, Yeah, I agree with that, and I also think that managers are trying to sometimes control every single detail and almost do the job. It's too directive, there's not enough coaching, mentoring, delegation. You get to a point where you've got to do it this way, and I think people get pretty sick of people trying to do their job for them. It's a bit like kind of buying a guard dog and barking yourself. Why would you do that? You've got to, you know, if you've made the investment, you've made the investment in someone, so help them learn and let them get on with it. If they graze their knee a few times, then great, that's where your learning's going to come from. So I do think there's plenty of opportunity. Actually, as I said earlier, I think that mid-tier of management is what leaders should be investing in. You know, that ultimately is what's going to turn people on or turn people off. You're either going to make awesome consultants, great future leaders, or you're going to lose people out of the business because of the way they're being led. But I agree with you, I think that leadership piece is a big reason why people leave companies. The other piece, of course, is just what we've talked about already, is around engagement. You know, do they believe, do they believe they're part of a journey? Is the pain worthwhile?

Yeah. So do you think those managers, I know you said it, it may be because they were managed that way, I'm just Like, do you think they're like consciously aware that I'm micromanaging my team here? Like, is it— I know there's so many different nuances, but do you— I don't know, like, do you think that if I was to turn around to you and go, look, Rory, let's say now sort of I've decided to leave, and then our sort of, um, yeah, leaving interview, I go, look, I'm— the reason I'm leaving is because I'm micromanaged. Like, do you think most managers that micromanage would be surprised to hear that? Like, do you think they're actually aware that they're micromanaging?

Well, look, firstly on that, I'd want to be clear on what someone's definition of being micromanaged is, because if your manager is showing an interest in your stats and your inputs and things like that, that's not necessarily micromanagement, okay? So I only say that because, you know, I've definitely interviewed people before that feel that they've been micromanaged or had feedback that we're micromanaging. We're actually what we're trying to do is present data and statistics so that we don't need to do that, but because lack of activity is being highlighted, you know, people feel additional pressure.

Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you did that because it can be an easy thing to point at if you're not going to take accountability. Yeah, sure, get that.

So if we take that as the context, Look, I think there's a danger that people are celebrating the wrong things, and the mid-managers maybe are being managed themselves like that, you know. Maybe an awesome month is more about the CVs that have been sent. I mean, I walked into a business where the sales floor were being managed definitely more on the amount of CVs they sent, the amount of spent the amount of time they spent on the phone, and if I went up to any one of them and asked what their target was in terms of their billing target, they were less clear on that, but they knew that they had to do this and this, you know, calls and CVs, you know, so look, that's the other extreme, it's not healthy.

Yeah, no, okay, interesting. So I guess, how in your sort of journey then, Rory, how involved— I'm assuming that you would have been, but like, how involved have you been in sort of hiring for the teams that you've managed and the businesses you've been involved in?

Yeah, a lot. So yeah, at all levels. So if I think, yeah, I can think of a number of examples where we've hired either associate directors or directors at a senior level. Hired within operations too, so whether across finance and HR, all the way through to entry level. I enjoy vetting and selecting the talent that will come into a company. So yeah, in answer to your question, quite a lot.

So let's— so I'm just always— because as I'm sure you'll be aware, and it would have been a pain that you would have experienced, But obviously, yeah, the sort of ironic challenge of sort of finding it difficult to recruit for your own recruitment business, right?

Yeah.

I guess, I don't know, what have been some of your biggest learns when sort of fighting and wrestling through that challenge of hiring for the teams and businesses that you have hired for? People want to know, like, what is it that you've ended up— I know there'll be nuances for each business and team that you recruit for, but like, What are the actual sort of fundamentals that you always look for in the people when hiring for the teams that you've been involved in or hiring for them? Because that's what people want to know. And it's beyond the, yeah, they need to be hardworking and these types of things, you know what I mean? It's people want to know, I don't know, what have ended up being the sort of real core ingredients that you end up always trying to find in people when hiring for the businesses that you work for?

Yeah, okay. Look, there's a sense of ambition. That has to exist. As I said earlier, this job is too hard, I think, for people starting out particularly. But it doesn't matter where you are in your journey, it's kind of what's next, you know, why are you in it, you know, and is that tangible? How will you know when you get there? So they're working towards something. For me, it's also— I think there's always a danger when you when people try and hire in their own image. I think one of the great things to try and do is you hire people that might bring something a little bit different, you know, either a different approach or they're from a different background, or maybe their hobbies are slightly different, but they're just bringing different— they're bringing something that you haven't got already. I mean, if you're hiring in numbers, then obviously you're gonna— you're you're going to get some overlap. But I think the main thing is people with ambitions, people that have proved some form of achievement and commitment. They've either stuck at something or they've made something work, or in their own time they've achieved something. So some sense of achievement, really simply, and a sense of where they want to go next, I think, is at a base level. And would you be prepared to go out with them? I used to work with a director whose acid test was, would you go with it? Would you go for a drink with them or not? Yeah, it's like, well, yeah, I guess that's not a bad starting point. Um, yeah, so yeah, okay.

No, yeah, I just, yeah, I find that— no, I think you're, you're— I really like the— because you always hear, hear sort of culture fit, don't you? But you're talking about culture add there, aren't you?

And yeah, culture, I think that culture fit thing is is potentially quite dangerous. Look, you don't want people who are going to react against stuff all the time. I've actually been that person before where I've kind of reacted against, and I've done it for the right reasons, to try and make something better, but actually that's not necessarily helpful. But you want people— yeah, definitely culture add. It's an evolution. It's not your culture at any one point, surely isn't a destination, you know, it's part of the journey.

Yeah, I love that. And then this sort of, sort of goes into this slightly a bit more on the sort of, uh, entry or sort of early on, um, part of a recruiter's journey. But again, it's another question that I got in my inbox, which was basically you've been involved in, you've had some real solid experience in building teams and developing people and these types of things. So I guess, yeah, the question was like, how have you in the past or continue at the moment How do you help recruiters that are maybe early on in their journey cope with doubting themselves? Like, how do you actually help recruiters break through those sort of, that, those periods of where they're, yeah, they may not believe or have the confidence that they can do this job and these types of things? That was just one of the questions which I think can sometimes be a big reason as to why, yeah, the sort of turnover or why people leave recruitment. Um, yeah, just an interesting question I had. Actual advice around that.

And I think one of the key things there, Hishem, is that perspective that someone is taking, you know, trying to encourage someone to look at a longer-term perspective rather than, you know, however bad their current situation is, they're probably looking at a week or they've had a deal drop out or they can't get any interviews or, you know, those are all things that you can work with. You know, if someone has the desire and the will to make a success of it, you can work with that. You know, the skill is just stuff you learn, you know, and people will learn it at different rates, but you'll learn it. And if there's a particular area to adapt and work with, you know, we can do that over a period of time. The key thing, it all comes back into, well, why did, you know, what was your purpose for coming into this in the first place. Let's try and reconnect with that, you know. Yeah, just because it's not working right here and now, you know, especially in the current climate, that's no reason to suggest that you won't make a career out of recruitment. You know, I was pretty good as a recruiter. I was no way the best, you know, but I probably had that determination and desire just to stick at it and keep on going and try and learn stuff along the way.

Yeah, no, great. And then sort of final, final piece on this, which I find, uh, really interesting, uh, because I'm speaking to more and more businesses about it. So I've spoken to a number of recruitment agencies over the last few months who felt, who felt like, again, the sort of impact, positive impact of the sort of last 12 months is that it has enabled recruiters to sort of be more open to they're like spending time on their own development.

Yeah.

And personal development.

Yeah.

So I guess one of the questions that I had and what someone sort of sent me was around like how— so one, as a recruitment business owner or a manager, I may feel really passionate about that. I think sort of people on my team should adopt, like, we should have a learning culture, right? That's something that I believe that we should have. So I guess In your experience and in your journey, like, how have you impacted and have you impacted sort of the culture to be more of a learning culture and encourage— how can people get recruiters to encourage spending time on their own development? Like, how have companies done this and impacted that?

I think that's a really, really good question, and I think often people in our industry are searching for, and it comes up in reviews or something, "I want development." But sometimes when you channel into that, it's like, well, what is that? Development in what? And that's not always clear. There's just that sense of, well, if you develop me, I'll get better. So I think you've just got to get clear on what are the things that are going to really make a difference. And for me, there's a clear distinction between sales training, recruitment training, and there are some awesome recruitment trainers out there. Are you just trying to get better at the art of recruitment? I call it an art. I'm sure people outside recruitment wouldn't necessarily call it an art, but you know, it is, it is, you know, it's, if you do it well, it is an art, you know, some people will have better conversion ratios than others, therefore they're doing something differently. That is stuff you can learn, okay? For me, the big difference is when you start taking that away and you start looking at managing people in terms of you're trying to get in their head a bit, you're managing their mental state, you're managing their perspective. Recruitment, it sounds like a really cheesy line, but for me, recruitment, you win or lose in your head. You know, if you are channeled, if you are working in an environment that is there to support and promote what you do, if you are getting the investment and your mind is together, you are game on, then 9 times out of 10 you'll do well. But we don't really start with that sort of coaching, almost like executive coaching really. We don't start people on that journey until they put their hand up for some kind of management or leadership type role. That's the bit that is really worth investing in for me. A, because you're shaping careers, you're giving people an opportunity to advance themselves, but also actually they're learning stuff that is outside recruitment that is still really relevant within recruitment.

Hmm, that's interesting. So I guess as we sort of come towards the end here, it'd be great to just talk a bit about the things, the common things that you've been seeing with the people that you've been working with and these types of things. So I guess, like I said in the introduction, it seems like what you're trying to help a lot of people with now is to sort of fulfill their potential.

Yeah.

So I guess maybe we're talking a bit about here, this sort of mindset, which is what you may boil it down to. But what do you think a lot of the time prevents, I don't know, recruitment leaders, business owners, or just teams in general in recruitment sort of stop them from— hold them back from fulfilling their potential, do you think? What do you continue to see and have continued to see over the last 6, 7 months since you've been supporting people?

So I found this bit really interesting. I mean, the great thing about working in a consultancy role is you just get exposed to different businesses, and obviously you're not the competition, so it's great to be able to slice open a business and just be able to to look at the stuff that they do really well, but also the stuff that needs work. It tends to come down to different things. I think sometimes if we work at the top-down— so owners, I think, or business leaders often find it difficult to step back from the detail and look at the broader play. So whether they're in a billing role, in competition with their other billers. You know, that's quite a common situation for businesses up to a certain size. And I use an analogy there of— I don't know, do you ever follow American football or anything like that?

Yeah, yeah, I do.

Okay, so American football. So quick analogy here. So American football, you'll know that you get that line of scrimmage, you get an offensive line, you get a defensive line, and the offensive line is obviously just trying to protect their quarterback from the defensive line. So they're both in the, they're both in the push, yeah, okay. The danger with that, with that leading by example, uh, leader is that they're in the line of scrimmage with everyone else, so they're doing the pushing and the shoving. The danger there is when they flip the ball back to the quarterback, there's no one there, so there's no one actually taking a more strategic view, calling a longer-term play, um, you know, spotting the moves, executing the throw and completing the move, and therefore you all move up the pitch, you know, you're stuck in that moment. So for owners, sometimes it's a question of giving themselves the space to take a couple of steps back, you know, with that ball, and look at the opportunities that exist beyond the day, beyond that week, beyond that month. And actually, therefore, they're investing time in the opportunities for the people in their business. So, and again, if you're in that line of scrimmage, you're not doing it, you're not doing it just to stay put. You want to move up the pitch. So although it's great, that leadership by example, I'm billing like everyone else, and I totally get that businesses up to a certain size and scale, you need to be doing that. There is also an obligation on a leader to be able to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Next level down is really in that management tier of combining their own billing performance and not becoming almost too much of the quarterback. So almost going, look, 70%, 80% of your time needs to be on your own billing. So imagine you're in a boat, it's you and, you know, 2 or 3 others, that's your team. Every time you're taking— you're the best rower in the boat— every time you're taking your hands off the oars and helping others out, the boat's going to grind to a halt. So you need to maximize that 20%, 30% you're spending with your team, but maintain focus on what you're doing. So it's a completely different dynamic. And then for recruiters themselves, again, it's a little bit of mindspace, why you're doing it, reconnecting with your journey and your purpose, but also actually holding yourself to account as much as possible, staying outcome-oriented, but putting in the hard yards, you know, based on your own conversion ratios, to enable you to actually hit those outcomes, earn the cash, progress, whatever your motivation is, set up that bar in southern Spain, you know, whatever it is, so that you're able to progress and move on. So I guess in a really kind of elaborate way, we come back to it's about everyone playing to position, and I think that's where it gets a bit muddled, Hishem, is when you get people who are either uncomfortable in their position, or they only know one way of working, or the situation has kind of pushed them into a different way of working, or you know, or a poor way of working. So yeah, everyone playing to position essentially is probably key.

Yeah, no, I love that. That's really interesting. So look, you've been in the industry for some time, so I guess again what you just spoken about there is you've been able to, over the last few months, have, yeah, unique insight and obviously been involved in, yeah, different companies in the last few years. I guess, I don't know, when I say to you the future of the recruitment industry, or what sort of companies are doing really well that you think will enable them to maximize their potential? What comes up for you?

So I think the companies that do well are those that have a really clear sense of vision and purpose. They're able to get staff on the journey, whatever the circumstances, you know, and I think there are those, you know, there are certain companies that I think we'll see that there'll be winners and losers through this coronavirus, especially the kind of the working from home piece. If you get your staff on the journey and then if you're investing in your middle management to gain the scale, and I think if you really cut it down into simple segments, If a company has a great proposition, they're really clear on what they're offering is to market, you know, and they're really clear what that proposition means for the people that work for them, if they've got the right people in the right seats and they're also clear about future seats that are available to them, and you're developing those people, and then if you have the right processes in place to ensure that your people have every chance of making a success of their career, and they're supported, you know, that's fundamental too. So great proposition, awesome people, or people with potential, and good processes. I think those, those are the things for me. That, that for me, if I'm ever looking at a business, those are the 3 key things that I would look at to try and gauge, you know, the sort of impact, if any, that I could have on a, that I could have on a company.

Love that. So I've got 5 final questions for you before we finish.

Okay. Okay. All right.

So first one, easy ones. First one is, if you could change the industry, what would you improve?

Oh my word. Okay. A slight frustration I have, and maybe I'm a bit of a purist here, but a slight frustration I have is, is that a lot of recruitment is becoming increasingly transactional and that the skills of recruiters are being driven more, or the role of a recruiter is being driven more towards administration. So I receive a role over a portal, you know, I use LinkedIn to find a candidate, I match them, and then I'm just going to sit there and cross my fingers. I might organize a few interviews along the way, but let's hope we've got a deal. I would like to see recruiters, if I could you know, change something, step up in terms of professionalism and partnership. And I would love to see recruiters have more confidence, more pride in what they do, and look to influence through that process. I always use a mantra of 3 things. I think the most important thing for any recruiter is to be memorable, okay? But in order to do that, For me, it's be relevant, be niche, be valued. Be relevant, be contemporary, you're working markets that are adding real value. Be niche, be an expert in what you do, and be valued. It's not just about bum on the seat. Yes, you need to do that really effectively, but be more than that, be a partner. I think if I could change the sector, that's what I would try and achieve.

Cool, so my second question is, What book have you read that has had the biggest impact on you? If you're not a reader, that could be a podcast or an audiobook that you listen to.

But yeah, all of your podcasts, obviously. So I don't usually go for the business books in a major way, but actually during the lockdown period and this sort of extended period with coronavirus, I have read a few of them, and I think the one that has resonated most with me is by Matthew Syed, who writes for the Sunday Times. He has a book called Rebel Ideas, and it's the power of— what it's basically talking about is the power of diversity, and not necessarily from an ethnic or a gender perspective, although that's certainly part of it, but it's the power of having people with different perspectives and different insight, different backgrounds, different influences in a room making a decision or trying to create a solution to a problem, rather than what I've certainly seen in the past, which is people in the room are all very similar, they all think the same way, you know, there's no confrontation, there's no conflict, it's all about agreement and just getting behind the leader and going, "Yeah, great idea." So yeah, Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed, I think, is really, really good, and he uses some great examples in there about how that has you know, how that diversity element has helped come to better decisions.

Nice. So slightly different one here. What did you spend your first biggest commission paycheck on?

God, you know, as you've said, this has been a long journey for me. I'm struggling to think back that far, Hishem. Look, my, my, you know, back in the day there were a bunch of us, uh, this is in the mid-'90s now, where we just wanted to earn— I think the key target was we all just wanted to earn £100,000.

Yeah.

And back in those days, if you take inflation year on year, it's probably £200 grand now. Okay.

Yeah.

Um, that, that was what we were just gunning for, that. Um, and I remember the guy who got there first, he was very, very good. And so, so yeah, we— that's what we all wanted to do. I, I'm not sure there was anything— I don't remember going out and splashing out on, on anything. I've never really been into, into watches or cars and things like that. But I do think I— it probably got me on the property ladder. So I, I got my first flat, um, bearing in mind I joined recruitment, I was 25. I got my first flat at 27.

Oh, amazing.

Well, I didn't own it outright, to be fair, but I had a really chunky deposit down on it, and that probably enabled me to then, you know, move fairly quickly up the housing ladder. And it was probably that, you know, if it hadn't been for recruitment, I would have never been able to do that. I mean, you know, so, yeah, if you get this right, it can, it can change your life. So, but I'm afraid that's probably not a very— you probably expect a far more exciting anecdote than that. Putting it into a flat is probably not what you had in mind, but that's, I think that's probably what I did.

No, getting on the Property Ladder is quite a popular one. So, final question is, yeah, I guess it's still sort of relevant, but I guess my final question always is sort of what's the ultimate goal for your recruitment career now? So that could be, yeah, what's the ultimate goal for your career now, Rory?

Okay, look, I'm still passionate about this sector and, you know, I really enjoy the potential that it gives. My perspective, if I can be part of another or a few more really impressive growth stories, and if I can look in another 5, 10 years at people, specifically leaders that I've just helped shape along the way, that would be a great glass of wine to maybe reflect on that and and look at those individuals. And hopefully, you know, as I said, being part of a growth thing, I fell out of love with the corporate world. For me, it's always been about almost supporting the underdog, of taking something with huge potential and growing it. And I think, yeah, I've got another 10 years of doing that.

Amazing. Rory, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. No, thank you very much. Good to