Ross Fraser - Focusing on your mental health & goals to offer the best opportunities to your team

Welcome to the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm really excited to be joined by Ross Fraser, who is the Managing Director of Connecting Experts, who are a specialist within the future mobility space and are on a mission to be the number one global talent acquisition partner within this industry. Ross entered the recruitment industry in 2011 where he joined Chapman Black. Over the 5 years he was there, he progressed from delivery consultant all the way to becoming the head of a division. Then in 2016, he left to start his own recruitment business, which is when Connecting Experts was formed. And over the last 5 years, Ross has been really focused on growing that business. They're currently at 20 heads, have big growth plans, and last year turned over €1.4 million as a business in 2020. Ross, thank you for joining me.

Hi, how are you? All good.

I'm looking forward to this. So obviously, for those that may not put this together, Ross is the brother of Jamie, who started Interact, who I've had on this podcast.

Yeah.

Told that you guys are competitive, so I won't let you know who gets the most downloads.

Yeah, well, I'll look myself, and I'm sure he will as well. Now that you've mentioned that, he's the younger brother, in case anyone wanted to know as well.

Love that. Well, I'm excited to really unpack your journey. So where we always like to start is In your opinion, what characteristics and traits do you think make up a highly successful recruitment consultant?

Yeah, it's a good question because everyone's different, and even— and it's only sort of over the last year or so that I've started to really like drill down and really look at different people and what's worked and what hasn't worked. I think it all depends, well, partly depends on the type of recruitment that you do, but like, for example, in our space, like And in a startup environment in particular, it's really, really important that we get people that are like mini entrepreneurs in their own right and people that have the thought process to want to be successful themselves and they have goals and visions and all that sort of stuff. So I think definitely like goal-oriented people that have clear objectives and clear ambition to do something with purpose in their life. I think that's definitely like a characteristic which is fundamental. At all. From a work perspective, it's all to do with doing more than what the person next to you is doing on a consistent basis. And I think that the good thing is if you get yourself into an environment where— I was lucky, obviously, in my career, it sort of worked like that. But if you get yourself into an environment where people are doing really, really well and they're earning good money and you feel motivated by the people that are around you, And if you target yourself to be better than those people, then obviously, you know, you'll end up sort of, well, hopefully you'll end up doing well. So I think that, you know, motivated people in the sense of, you know, doing what they want to do and going in that direction and being quite ruthless, you know, and there are words that people use like ruthless and aggressive and all that sort of stuff, which can be seen in a negative light, but they are actually quite positive words if you look at it in the right way. Like, if you're ruthless with your time and you're ruthless with your effort and you are engaged enough to be successful, it doesn't necessarily matter. It does matter, but it's not the main focus how good you are at something if you're really drilling down on that sort of stuff. Yeah. And aggressive is all to do with, again, like that relentless approach on wanting to achieve something. So, you know, just from a positive personality perspective, I think those are the things that I would sort of look at.

Yeah, I love that. So look, what obviously what we're going to really unpack and focus on is definitely Ross being a recruitment business owner and growing the business you have over the last 5 years. But let's just touch on sort of, um, Ross being an employee and being a recruiter yourself. So I guess like, how would you— I'm always interested, but like, how would you describe your first year in recruitment? Like, what, what, what was that like?

Uh, like a bit of a whirlwind because it was— I was— how old was I? I was 18, just about to turn 19.

Yeah.

And I joined this company which was like two entrepreneurs that had sold a business before, um, really engaged team, and I was the youngest at the time. So it was like—

how old was you?

I was 18. So I started in January and then I turned 19 in February. I did like an internship for the first 3 months.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. So they paid my expenses, but I wasn't actually paid. And I remember the guy that hired me said to me, you need to show to us why we should hire you versus a graduate, if that makes sense. Wow. And yeah, I think, you know, I'm boiling it back down to like what I really focused on at the time and what I I was really nervous and people that know me now would think that that's not possible, but I was really— I found it difficult to talk in front of people. I found it difficult to— my interviews must have been terrible. If I interviewed myself now, then I can imagine. But the first year was really progressive for me because, you know, I started to again focus on those things. I was aggressive, but in the right way. I was proactive in the right way. I was hungry to be successful, um, and you know, it sort of went like— I saw, I felt myself like develop as a person in that year quite significantly. And their coaching and training was really, really good, and it really helped because you had people to look up to.

Yeah, well, it sounds like what you're talking about there is confidence and like a bit of self-belief. So let's just talk, let's just talk about that real quick, because I think, I think I speak to loads of recruiters and I think, I'm sure, maybe may not agree, but I feel like even people that are really experienced still experience that and that self-doubt or imposter syndrome or whatever. So I guess, where did that come, like, I don't know, how did you, I guess it seemed like what you did is like you recognized that, then you like channeled energy into things that, I don't know, pushed you on. And, and like you said, but I don't know, where did it, why do you think you lacked confidence, out of interest?

And Uh, why? I think, I think that like everyone leaves school and yeah, well, everyone leaves school, stuff, but some earlier than others. Um, but I think, I think the point, the point is, is that I left school with no idea what I was actually going to do.

Yeah.

Um, and I started to work for an estate agent and when I was 17 and I was like, this is not what I want to do. Um, yeah, like, like, the people— no disrespect to the people that work there, but the people that worked there had already worked there for quite a long time. They're still there to this day at the same estate agents in Stratford. Yeah, it's like, I don't, I don't see myself doing that, um, like, long term. So I was sort of like, I found it difficult to then sort of think, what am I going to do and, and how, how am I going to—

a lot of pressure, isn't it?

Yeah, it's hard, it's hard. Like, my mum's a single, single mum, not that that, that really matters to, you know, loads of people in that situation. But I think it's hard to, it's hard to then feel that you're the right, you're in the right situation or that you're going to be good enough, if that makes sense. And I know that, I know that that is how other people must feel. And I think when you go into an environment and you see other people and you see how confident they are and how good they are at what they do, you start to— not everyone— compare. Yeah, you start to compare and doubt yourself. And looking back at it, that's the complete opposite of what you should do. If you focus on what you do, compare, observe, take things in that you like. But if you really focus on what you can do, people are talented enough to achieve that. And I think that that's the main reason why at the start I was really, really nervous, if that makes sense. And I think, and even now, like, even now, some things I think, like, whoa, when I sit back and I sort of work out, like, where we want to get to, and I think, whoa, like, is that even logical? But again, you've got to stick to the principles.

Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. And the reason why I wanted you to talk about that was because I think a point that you made earlier that people may view you now and may not even know that's how you were at the beginning, right? So I think it's important So this is all about, but also I'm sure now hiring for your team and business, like you probably see some of this, you may see some of you, Alion and people as well. So I guess the next part that I would love, and you may have already sort of touched on the comparison thing, but I guess there'll be a lot of people listening to this that may still lack that confidence or may still not, yeah, they didn't turn it on or they didn't then change it. So I guess for you, what clicked? Like when did you then actually Maybe you turned that into, well, no, I'm going to stop using that as a reason as to why I should be confident. I'm going to turn it into a reason why I'm motivated to be confident and be— I don't know, like what clicked for you to sort of channel that in a different way?

I think like I'm competitive as a person, right? So it was good how it was set up. So I was in a room with other people that started with me and we focused on like number generation and we had certain KPIs. There was only small, there was like call time and outbound calls and stuff like that. And I was just like, every day, I don't care what happens, I just want to be top of these— top of those, yeah, top of those points. And I think over quite a quick period of time, and I see it with other people that are higher even now, you start to understand, I can do this. Like, it's not actually that difficult.

Build momentum.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And obviously you get knockbacks, everyone gets knockbacks, But I think that process was really, really useful. So yeah, again, I just always focused on what I— or tried to focus on what I could influence in that day and in that hour and whatever. And yeah.

Okay. No, I love that. So I guess a couple of things. One, like, obviously you progressed obviously quite quickly in those 5 years. So I guess obviously Obviously it didn't end up turning out all well for Chapman Black, which everyone saw and everyone was aware. But I guess at the time and where you were, as I'm sure you would have looked at the business like, wow, I'm surrounded by, yeah, really high-performing people and these types of things. So I think it'd be fair to say that it was a highly competitive environment. So I'm always interested to, because we all hear recruiters and people say that I want to progress my career, right? But few actually do it. So I guess I'm just interested to ask you like why do you think Ross was the person that was able to get the promotions that he was over the person sitting next to you?

Uh, again, I, I think it comes, it comes back to like the principles of just trying to be better than the people around you and trying to do like— we, we didn't— we only— when I was there, we only started at the time, we were only doing roles in Germany at that point, and we're only doing so like medium-sized fees and stuff, and like medium size and what we do is like 15, 20K. So it was, from my perspective, I always wanted to push the boundaries. Like I did the best first 6 months as a delivery consultant, built 150K in the first 6 months as a sales consultant. And then it sort of, at a period of time, I was always trying to push the barrier in terms of, okay, I want to be a practice manager before anyone else becomes a practice manager. I want to be the youngest practice manager in the company. I want the team then to be the number one team in terms of profitability within the business. And then it became the group and then whatever else. So it was always like at every step there needs to be an opportunity to develop even further. And that's the reason why when I think back about the reasons why I set up Connecting Experts, it was because I then felt that I had no further to actually go, which becomes demotivating. So why, for me, like, recruiters are very good at talking a good game, that's their job, but the substance is the important part. And there's loads of really, really good recruiters out there, and I think that they do the simple things and set simple goals that are realistic, but, you know, what's the word, realistic but challenging for them to go and achieve. And that for me is always the difference between good and bad. Yeah.

Or good and average. Just a point on what, because I think it's interesting, just a point on what you said. Clearly, back to your point around being looking for people that are goal-oriented, and clearly you built momentum, built confidence, and you're like, right, I'm going to absolutely smash this and achieve these targets that no one's ever done, etc., etc. And that kept you going until a point I think I had someone on here not too long ago where he said the most consistent and high-performing recruiters were able to actually dust themselves off and actually remain motivated despite having an absolute quality month and then do it all again the following month. He said some people that weren't as consistent got complacent and weren't able to do that. So I guess what I wanted to ask you, with you sharing that, I know you said it got to a point where you was probably a bit more demotivated, which is maybe what started the business idea point, but how, for people listening that are, 'cause I'm sure you have people in your business now that are showing up every month, smashing it. Like how did you keep yourself motivated? 'Cause that's an important part to make, isn't it? 'Cause smash these targets, then it's like, right, okay, well, what now then? Like you need to keep that motivation, do you know what I mean?

[Speaker] Yeah, I think anyone who's got themselves into like a top, so when you start, I think it's all about earning commission and you want to earn commission and you hit your targets and okay, now I'm starting to earn money, which is the whole reason why, one of the main reasons why people get into recruitment. Then once you start to earn money, it's like, okay, well, I'm now saving towards XYZ. And then once you start saving towards XYZ, you buy a house, whatever it may be, whatever it can be, anything. I think then you start to develop ambitions which are not necessarily monetary but more about your career, if that makes sense, and more about, okay, well, what can I do with this group of people, or what can I challenge myself? And, you know, is there, is there like companies that do like incentives, and which, you know, loads do, and companies that do top biller prizes and whatever, that's then what should and would become your focus. It's not the only thing, but it's so it then steps away from how much money am I earning, because it kind of becomes obvious that you'll earn money because you've done that for so long. Yeah, yeah, sounds stupid, but it does. And then you start to— I believe that you start to refocus on other things. And that's why companies have to give, I think, now more than ever, people good, clear career progression, you know, share options, opportunities to have ownership of the company, to build things, to open offices, whatever it may be. There has to be something. But that relationship with your management or your manager or whatever it may be is important because they should understand what is motivating that person to be successful because everyone has different opinions.

Yeah, no, I love that. So look, final thing on this then, like, if you could, um, if you could go back and— I'm always— I'll always love asking this question. So if you could go back and speak to Ross who was entering the recruitment industry in 2011, Yeah. What advice would you give him?

Don't be so cocky.

But you just said you was not. You said you wasn't.

Yeah, well, I went from one extreme to the other, I think.

All right, fair, really.

Yeah.

What would you say then? Don't be cocky. Stay grounded. Stay humble.

Yeah, I think stay focused on— like, you know what you said about recruiters, that consistency is what top billers do, and they're always, always billing regardless of if they have a good or a bad month. A bad month for a top biller is like 30K and you think, that's still quite good. But yeah, I think if I look back at, you know, when I went into sales, I did 150K as a sales consultant in the first 6 months. In the first 3 months, there was no threshold and the sales, the commission at Chapman Black was pretty good. So, all of a sudden, I was 19 and I was earning a lot of money. So, you start going out and stuff and you start becoming like Jack the Lad in the pub and whatever else. And I think that, My biggest— like, I've had some of the best nights ever in that way, but my biggest regret, if I look at myself as a person— but everyone does this, like, you get sort of, uh, you look back at your night out and you think, 'I wish I never did that.' Yeah, yeah. But I think that the point is, like, having that sort of arrogance at a time, it was too much. It shouldn't have— yeah, arrogance is good again, like, it comes back to the other things, like These things are good in small doses, but I think just like a young, like a lot of young boys, I was too, too boisterous, if that makes sense. And I wish I'd, I wish if I look at myself now and I've got people that work for me and I have to say to them, I know exactly what you're like and you need to, you need to listen to me. And yeah, that's what I wish I was more. That's what I would tell myself anyway.

No, no, thank you for sharing that. I think because I find it really interesting, right? Because it's like everything that you're talking about, it's like, I know it's your responsibility to go to make those decisions, but sometimes you do need a bit of guidance. And I think that's something that, I don't know, I'd like to see more sort of recruitment business owners do where like, you know, that 19-year-old in your business has gone from not making much to 50, 60, 80 grand, and that's a lot of money at that age. And I think it'd be great if people could actually spend a bit of time and go, look, do what you want to do, I've been in your shoes, but this is what I wish I did with my money at that age. If that's putting in the stocks and shares ISA or whatever it may be, I don't know, I'd love to see some actual financial guidance to people where like I know those people, like you just said, if you, you would probably be, if you were to say that to the younger Ross, you'd probably be thanking, thanking yourself right now. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I agree. And I think that that's That's the beauty of being like still quite young myself and having a relationship with people that work with me. And I think there has to be, again, you have to create that environment which is aspiring for people. And, you know, obviously I aspire to do whatever. And, you know, even, you know, if you take Jamie, for example, he's really good inspiration for how he looks at his life, like he's like super regimented, which is something to look at and to be thinking of. So, people within my business now, I think it's important, like for me, it's important that we, the managers, and they build good relationships, they understand what the people want to do, not just about money, but what they actually want to do with their career. And try to give them as much advice as possible. But yeah, it's hard. It's hard to convince a 19-year-old who's just earned his first commission check, don't spend that on whatever you're going to spend it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think the fact that— I think that's great that you're having those conversations and encouraging that. I think that's awesome. So let's get into Russ starting Connecting Experts then and starting this business. Completely different ballgame from being an employee, like knowing what you need to do. So talk to us about, I guess, why don't we just start with a lot of people speak down with their mates and around the pub and whatever and go, I'm going to start my own recruitment business one day, but never actually do it. So I guess what gave you the courage?

I think the 19-year-old me who probably said that several times. I thought, if I don't do it for myself, lads, Yeah, this is me. If I don't do it, I'm gonna get ripped for the rest of my life, so I just had to, I think. But, um, uh, no, honest, honest, honest answer is, uh, two, two— there's two parts. So one, I didn't feel like there was any further for me to go at Chapman Black, which I think, which I think was, was obviously a big part. Um, and two was, um, my mum said to me and Jamie one day, why don't you both start a recruitment company? You both did really, really well on your own Yeah, basically. She has 10% of both of our companies, which—

I love that.

I didn't know that. Yeah, we've got the rest, but she has 10%. So, so there was no way that we were going to be able to start a business together, as much as the idea of it was great. He comes from a contract background. I'm all perm and retained searches and stuff like that. So how we work and our opinions on how to work are different.

Although markets as well, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. So, so long story short is we, we took an office where we live, um, like shoebox, like half the size of, if that, probably a quarter of the size of this kitchen, um, and, uh, £450 a month, whatever. And, uh, yeah, we started. And I'll be, I'll be honest, like the The hardest part at the start was motivation in the sense of I've been in an environment where there's loads of people around me and it's easy, like someone's doing really well, it's easy to really pick yourself up and to be motivated. If things are hard in that environment, they are hard. Yeah. The beauty was Jamie is super like boom, boom, boom, boom.

But the most positive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that made it easier. But I'd say that was, for me, the biggest challenge at the start.

Could we just talk about that for a second? Because I hear this a lot. So I've spoken to and worked with a lot of sort of smaller business owners and I hear this a lot. And it's— I think some people would be surprised, wouldn't they? Because they think, well, Ross, you've just started your own business, how can you not be motivated? But it's a bit deeper than that, isn't it? It's some of the things that you just said and it's actually like you've been used to bouncing off people and stuff like that. Whereas now it's like every single minute of the day you've got to motivate yourself. And I've, I've struggled with that at times. And what I've had to really be clear on is really understanding like why I'm doing what I'm doing. I think sometimes you can get really, you can just very easily just get nailed down in like the day-to-day and knowing what you need to get done. And sometimes you can forget like, right, why the fuck did I start this again? Like, why did I actually go on this journey? Yeah, I guess what— what obviously you had Jamie, which helps, but I don't know what, what helped, because I'm sure you had to really tap into your motivation and stuff. Like, what, what ended up really sort of picking your motivation up, or what did you go to to help you get motivated?

I think, I think the, um, I think a big thing at the time was to do with, uh, again, going back to sort of like my start and how I wanted to be, was like, I always knew I wanted to be successful, and I never quantified what success meant at the time because, yeah, 23 when I started Connecting Experts. And I just thought, well, like, okay, how can I get this? The other thing, I had a 6-month non-compete, obviously. So I started by doing something not completely different, but I'd done automotive for the whole time I'd been in recruitment. And then I stepped out of that for 6 months. So I was recruiting, I was doing searches still, for the same skill set but in a different industry.

Yeah.

So I just took that as a challenge again, sort of like took that as a goal as for something that I could try to do, to try to build a bit of a brand, um, outside of automotive, because that was going to come. And yeah, uh, yeah, it was just like, okay, let's, let's, let's challenge myself, let's find something. Um, and people like— maybe people do, but I, I wasn't the type of person that was going to be able to sit in an office for 12 hours a day, every day, not speaking to anyone in terms of like socially interacting, just speaking to— it just, that wasn't for me. And that's why, you know, I can imagine people find that lockdown tough because if they're not socially interacting with people, not everyone, some people can do it, but that's tough. So it was just like, okay, let's go and win a position and let's make sure that we fill that position. And luckily enough, things started to fall into place.

Yeah. And how long did it take? How long did it take for you to do your first deal?

6 weeks. So I want a retainer quite early on. So basically what I did is I went down all my LinkedIn contacts and I took out all the— I didn't take them out, but I called all the ones that weren't automotive. And I called this one guy and he was like, yeah, we're looking for like the chief purchasing officer for our business, building materials business in Belgium. So I rang my mum, I was like, I've got to go to Belgium to meet these guys. She's like, okay, why are you calling me? Just go. So I went, done a business trip to Belgium. I got a, like, basically I made, like the typical retainer was like a third, third, third, is that it? Yeah, yeah. So I just said like, okay, just pay me €10,000 up front and then I'll do a fixed fee for the rest because I was just like, I'll do whatever it takes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, yeah, luckily that, you know, the search was successful and, um, I still work with some of the people that are there now. So, um, and then it was just a case of like, you know, trying to—

momentum.

Yeah, yeah. And we started to hire— we've hired a couple of people in that year and, uh, yeah, it was good.

Love that. So let's just, because you've mentioned it, like just real quick and you can, like how much of your business is retained?

Depends which part. So I'd say a third, probably. Really? 30% roughly. Yeah. Yeah.

So just a quick one on that. And I'm sure you may or may not have seen, like I feel like, I don't know, from the lens that I see, I feel like there's just been so much more noise around and it's something I've, had you already done a lot of retained at Chapman Black, and that was the environment you was in. Yeah, I just feel like a lot of people are just making so much noise online around like contingent is dead and all this sort of stuff. So I, so I guess for you, like, in your opinion, like, why do you think, um, a lot of recruiters struggle to transition into retained? Or like, I don't know.

Okay, so I think people, people like, if you've never pitched a retainer, it's like asking someone for money up front that that is completely against how you've worked before, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it's like breaking the mold of what you've been used to. Um, and someone put it quite nicely for me before. If you build a brand and you build a reputation and you are good at what you do, um, you don't go into Apple— well, you can now, but you don't go into Apple and say give me that phone, I'll pay you when I've used it. Do you know what I mean? You buy the phone and then you use it. And it's a service, but it's a service that should guarantee results. And if you're good at what you do, you should be able to articulate that in a way where it can come across. But that's for an experienced person like that. An experienced person should know that. I think that there are loads of techniques that you can use to sell a retained search. And I think that it's more specific for like $80K, $90K+ salaries. You're not going to be able to sell a retained search necessarily for like a blue-collar engineer.

Unless maybe it's like volume, maybe it might be like X number of projects.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. But I think the thing that everyone, well, people should always look at, and it's a solution, right? So there's hiring problems is what a company needs. And why they need it. And I think that if you're able to question that and to really understand what they need, why they need it, how's that affecting them, why can't they get it, etc., etc., etc., then you can start to create a solution that is custom to that per— that company. So is it because they haven't got any money? Is it because they've got loads of money but they just haven't got any contacts? Is it because they're in a bad location, whatever it may be, then you start to create the solution. So what I think people should start to do in general is start to look at not using the word like retained and not using the word contingent and RPO and whatever that may be, but start to think of solutions that can be boxed up for a client based on what their expectations are. Yeah, and I think that you can be creative. I think, and companies that are rigid and don't offer the opportunities for their consultants to be creative are stifling their own development and revenue growth.

Yeah, no, I love that. I love the way that you're thinking about that. And I think, and what, what that also really encourages, and the only way that you're going to be able to get there is by being consultative. And yeah, yeah, and it's like you said, it's, it's me and you having a conversation around, yes, hiring, but let's talk about how this actually impacts your business and what you're not going to be able to achieve and where you're going, blah, blah, blah. And then you can actually come up with a— and you're only going to do that if you'll be consultative and not going, right, have you got a job and spot business and transaction?

100%, 100%, 100%. The future of, of like business success, like, and I think it's always, always has been, but I think like it's more obvious now than ever through platforms like this and whatever else it might be. But the future of business success is relationships, and that goes for relationships internally, that goes for relationships with your customers, it goes from relationships with your suppliers. If you build good relationships and you start to farm the relationships and you start to learn more about those people, the opportunities for development, you know, obviously from a monetary perspective and from a business perspective are huge.

Yeah, love that. So let's just talk a bit about your journey in growing this business then. So first couple of years, I guess just not because it always means profitability, but just for context, like, After 2 and a half years, so halfway into your journey, how many of you— so obviously you started with you and Jamie in that shoebox room and obviously had your non-compete, so had to do other things. But like 2 and a half years in, how many of you guys were there? Where were you? Like, what did the business look like at that point?

Yeah, so we moved from the first office, just me and Jamie, to an office for 4 people, me, Jamie, and 2 others. Then we moved from that office to the office group in up to London.

Yeah.

And then we had an office for like 20 people and we shared that. I think after sort of 2 and a half years, I was at sort of 8, 7 or 8 people, if I remember correctly. Yeah. And I think that the big learning I take from that period of time is getting the right people into the right spots, getting the right people that breathe, understand, learn, want to be how you are, want to be, you know, pushing in the right direction. I think that that's something that we were missing a little bit at the time.

So can we talk about that? Because that's such a common challenge. So like, what was it that you found difficult? Was it you was hiring people, then you were like, nah, they're not right? Was it you were hiring, I don't know, was you still working out what is the Connecting Experts culture? Like, I don't know, what was difficult about it?

I think we're still working out what our core markets were going to be. And I know it sounds crazy after 2 and a half years, but you sort of, as a consultant or as a principal consultant or whatever, you just— we were working in automotive, but we were just doing deals, if that makes sense. And there wasn't really any direction, but we were doing well, so there was no need for direction at that time. And I think that there was, well, there was, but it just didn't happen. But there was a point when I wasn't happy with how the company was for several reasons, and that was like a eureka moment as to like, well, we need to change— I need to change this, and I need to make some tough decisions. And it— I think a lot of it was that— well, part of it was down to like growth. Like, if you think about growth and you focus on growth and you hire, you go, okay, that person could do the job, so let's bring them in. That's wrong, that shouldn't happen. Especially for the first hires, like, when you're building a team, the people that you get into that team at the start, and again, this is a learning that I have, it should be the people that you trust in undately that they're going to be successful. And not just successful, I mean, like, they'll, they'll think, they'll think the right way, they have the right attitude. Again, it comes back to like all of the things, uh, that we spoke about before. Um, and yeah, I mean, like, for me, that's so important looking back at it.

That's really like— so then what, so what, what were some of the main changes that you made then going from— I think that, I think fair play for you to having the self-awareness and willingness to be like, you know what, I don't like where this business is going, or sort of, I think it needs to be going in a different direction. Like, what were the— because I think some— because I think that can sometimes be the challenge when you're running a small business, is like, you can get in a bit of a rut, can't you? And like, you just all of a sudden, it's like, we've been doing it this way for 6 months now, etc. So I don't know, what were some of the— because some people may really relate to that, and they don't know how to maybe take the first step in the right direction. I don't know, what were some of the first steps that you had to take that really enabled you to get down on that track that you was a lot more happy with, or what you felt was the right thing to do?

Yeah, I think the first, the first thing that, that the, the first part of dealing with your business is dealing with yourself, um, and feeling happy with yourself and what you're doing. And, um, like, I— not a lot of people know this, but I had a lot of trouble with, like, my personal mental health at a time.

Okay.

I found it really difficult to like do, uh, to be alone and, um, yeah, like it's like a form of like, um, what's the word, not ADHD, um, OCD, sorry. Um, and yeah, it— I wasn't happy with myself, so I had to go and reflect on yourself and deal with that and met loads of really good people and Anyway, that's where it started. So you have to, like, you have to be happy with what you're putting into it before you can expect to get something out of it.

Yeah, just quickly on that, thank you for sharing that. Really quickly, like, what— a lot of people would feel those things that you felt and experienced but may never actually reach out for help. Is one of the, like, what— I don't know, was there anything that— I don't know what enabled you to reach out for help or like start that? Because I think a lot of people could still be feeling like that and not would have done anything about it. Anything there to share?

Yeah, well, I think I had good people around me, like my girlfriend who I'm with now, like she was like immense throughout this whole process.

Amazing.

My mum obviously was immense throughout the whole process, and I was in a fortunate position that they were like that, and But I think, you know, the hardest thing for people is to not speak about problems that they might have, especially, you know, young boys, for example. I can imagine, you know, just relating to myself, how difficult that would be for people who don't want to have people, you know, rib them about their emotions or their feelings. But at the end of the day, there should be and there is always a structure and people do understand. It's only when you start to articulate like what your problems are and they might not even be like, they might be superficial, they might actually be made up by yourself, like you're not good enough for all that sort of stuff. And I think that as soon as you as a person, and it's a maturity thing as well, but, and there's tools and, and, uh, there's techniques that you can learn and all that sort of stuff. And there are loads of really, really good people out there that can help with that sort of stuff. But as soon as you as a person get past that, that's when there is like a lightbulb moment for you. And you know, like when you're stressed about something and then all of a sudden you're not stressed and you sort of decompose.

Yeah, it's like, yeah, just feel a lot more loose, a lot more free.

Your body feels like relieved of all this pressure that's been building up. And that was the— that for me was the big point when Connecting Experts, like from Basically, from that point, and then from changing some of the people and from really focusing on, right, this is what we're going to do, really start to be like what I was at the start, like really start to be super motivated and super hungry to be successful. From that point, we doubled in revenue, and in the last year, we've doubled in size. So that's been a significant, like, that was a significant moment for me, the company, yeah, me and the company, really.

I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And so, so basically what you shared there was, well, look, before any sort of growth or the right things happen, you're sharing that you need to work on yourself and have that vulnerability to work out where you need to work on that. I love that. And thank you for sharing that. So I guess let's just talk a bit about then when you had that more clarity and you felt more like composed and like, you know, why, you know, why turn up every day, like What were some of the, I guess, some of the things that you learned when you were growing? Like, did you get better at hiring the right people? What did that look like? Like, did you then really, yeah, talk to us a bit about that.

I think the main thing was to do with like, okay, right, so we're going to grow. This is our business and this is how it's going to grow. So let's get the right people now in the right seats that are going to be part of that journey and let's give them opportunities to grow something. And it starts with just himself, and building that, like, sort of management team is the first huge step, and getting those hires right. Yeah, and doing whatever it takes. Like, if it means that you have to pay someone more money than what you actually want to pay them, but you strongly believe that they're the right person, do it. If you believe that that person has— goes out a lot, but they are going to do when they're in the office, they are going to do 100% everything you want them to do, do it. Keep them in as much as you can, but do it. You know, just, just do what's required at that point to get your business how you want it to be structured. Because once you have that structure, the growth opportunities for you and your team, like you can't double in size if you don't have the right infrastructure, as simple as that.

Yeah.

And the growth opportunities for you and your team and for the people around you and for them to start to see us, to aspire to be like the managers and stuff, that comes from getting the right people in play. And that's what I think, that's the big, you know, game changer for us as well.

Yeah. And I think we've discussed this quite a lot on the podcast that that's probably like the most important layer in the recruitment business to scale because of the reasons that you're talking about. Because I think it could have been quite easy for you to get, like, I guess maybe people just to help you deliver or like go down that route rather than like really focusing on getting that management layer or those future leaders. So I guess how— just to make this really clear, because this could be really practical for people, like, how many people made up— how many people did you want to get where you're like, right, if I get 3 people, 4 people that can really deliver on that, sort of that, that management layer, that really important layer, then we can really start growing from there. Like, how many people did you want to get in those seats, and how many seats were there? Out of interest, how did you structure it? You okay, mate? Wait, you have to— I think might have to connect your audio.

Can you hear me?

Yeah, all good. What happened?

Sorry, my computer turned off. Done a manual restart, you know, like when that— you know, like when you've not updated it for so long and then all of a sudden—

yeah, and then it just automatically does it. Savage. It's all good. Um, We can carry on from here. Like, are we okay for time? Yeah, for like 10, 15 minutes. All right. Yeah, yeah, it's fine. Right. Let me just— I'll just restart and then I can edit this bit out.

Sorry, mate.

Okay. We just had some connection issues, but as I was just asking you, Ross, I guess the question was just to make it really practical for people. You said how important that management layer was. All I wanted to ask you was like, how many— how many in your eyes, like, how many people did you need in those seats to really kick that off?

Uh, well, it depends how many, um, like, teams you've got.

Well, your screen— your screen's gone black.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay, I'm back.

We're good.

It's okay. So yeah, so like, it depends— it depends how many. Yeah.

Depends, it depends, it depends how many, how big your team, your team is and how big your teams are, if that makes sense. But we had, we've got 3 big, we got 3 like divisions, let's call them, and it was important to get the right heads of those teams. And obviously as the company's grown, it's been important to get the, it's been important to get like the right head of operations. It's been important to get the right head of talent. That's super important, right head of talent, because If you're not bringing the right people into the company, what is your company? So yeah, it doesn't matter how big that team is. It can't be super big and it can't be unmanageable and you have to be able to communicate with people on a regular basis and touchpoints and all that sort of stuff. And then obviously, you know, as long as you're covering the bases of like your core markets, I think that's the most important thing.

Important part.

Yeah. Nice. Love that. So let's just, I love the fact that you just said around those other important positions. So at what stage did you invest in an operations person? At what stage did you invest in an internal talent person? Because I think that's, I think a lot of businesses, smaller growing businesses, think, oh no, that's someone like that, that's for a bigger business, right? So like, I don't know, where was you at a business when you hired people like that?

So, uh, I would say that when we, when we started to, to really drive down as to what the business plans are going to be and what the growth is going to look like and all that stuff, um, if you're, if you're going to grow, you as the owner or owners or whatever it may be of the company can't do that yourself. Um, so how are you going to do that? And I think that the direct-to-rec strategy is clear and that can work. Are you going to get all your hires from direct-to-recs? Possibly, but it'd be super expensive, so probably not the right thing to do. So, again, forget about the cost of what hiring that person is going to be. If you back that person and you think that person is going to be good and is going to represent your brand in the right way, he's going to engage with the right people, he's going to be convincing to You know, even, even at 20 people, even at 30 people, people will still have reasons why your company is not the right company for them or is too small or is whatever. It can be anything. Industry is not interesting. So I think that you have to be able to then like communicate the reasons for why they should join your company. So that head of talent is really, really important. To ensure. So again, like, from a growth perspective, if you're gonna grow, you need that person. Um, where—

so how many of you were there? How many of you were there when that— when you hired that person?

So, so, uh, a point— a point of— a point of sort of, uh, 8 or 10, if I remember correctly. Yeah, yeah. So since we've hired that person, our growth is double, um, in a quarter of the time. And I think we get it right as well, which is good. And from an operations perspective, same sort of thing. I think, like, you know, your operation as such becomes bigger because you've got more people to look after, you've got more computers, you've got more whatever, it can be anything in your business. And, you know, I think that the You can't underestimate the role that operations has in a business, like finance. Like, luckily for me, my mum is, as I said, like, she has 10% of the company, but she's also the finance director of Connecting Experts. So I was fortunate in that sense that she was able to do that, and she's done that before in her life, and she knows what to do there. So that's a really, really important role that I had staffed since day one.

Lucky enough.

More to that, like, from an operations perspective, okay, so if we, like, the industry and people like new business owners and people that come into it, they talk about like innovation and they're the next best thing and stuff like that. So why don't, why doesn't the operations person then become responsible for how to innovate the office and the backend and just the environment like itself. Like since I've started, like for example, we used to write our KPIs on whiteboards. Now we have like digital screens which you can see on videos of our company now, we try to post them as much as possible. But like, you know, they're digital screens, they're on a grass wall, they look fancy, it's real time and all that sort of stuff. So How can we innovate the environment to innovate ourselves, if that makes sense? Like, how can we make ourselves better by our environment? And that's what the operations role is really, really fundamental in bringing to the table.

Yeah, I love that. And then again, I think I ask you this just because I think, again, people can, if they are serious about growth, can feel, get into the trap of like, ah, I'll get an operations person when I'm here, or it's not needed yet. Like, in your journey, when did you hire the operations person? Was you at that sort of 10-head mark again and you knew how important it was, or?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think at the start you can manage a lot of that stuff. As a business owner, you can manage, you can deal with that. It also depends on what journey your business has taken. Like, are you well-funded by a big business to set up a brand and then you have a percentage of that brand, but you've got £1 million behind you to do it? Obviously then you can rapidly attract and build that infrastructure very, very quickly. If you're like what I was and you have your own money and it's— there's no one backing you and you do it yourself, then you need to take more responsibility. Well, not more responsibility, but you have more onus on the cost and stuff like that. So you have to take slightly more control over those types of things at a time. But once you get to a certain point, and again, it's all of these things I always say about reflection and self-awareness and understanding what's going on. Once you realize you cannot do everything, which you cannot, no one can, you then realize you need to get the right people in the right spot in order to achieve the next step of what your objectives are. And I think that was really, really important for us.

Yeah, nah, amazing. So how, um, How has it been like dealing with a lot of firsts then? So like, going on this growth, you've doubled. Yeah. You've gone from this shoebox room of you and your brother smashing it out. Now there's 20 heads of you. Like, how have you— I think sometimes people can be quite worried again, back to like confidence or just worried around like, am I going to be able to lead these people? Like, am I the right person? I don't know. Like, what's that journey been like for you? How have you sort of— because you're the person that's walking down the track first, right? So like, how's that been?

Uh, how's that been? That is— it's a continual— it's a continual thing. So like, recruitment's weird because you could have your best month ever and it'll be the best feeling ever, but then as soon as it becomes the first of the next month, you start again. And yeah, and that can work in the other way. That can work in the other way, like if you have a really, really bad month then all of a sudden you've got a fresh, fresh start. And I think that that's good. And I think that when you start to—

people like—

the reason why I mention it is because people don't always look back at what they've done, they just look forward at what they're going to do, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Um, and that's where like the reflection part comes in, and that's where like really focusing on what you can do better and how you can improve. And, and again, really going back to the start of like my career, I think that I don't look at 'Okay, so if I look at what I envisage, like I want us to open an office in the US, that's a huge milestone for me personally. I want us to get to X number of heads,' whatever it may be. I don't look at that and go, 'That's going to be super expensive. How are we going to even do that? Who's going to do it?' I am obviously, part of me is thinking about that sort of stuff, but it's not like the main thing that's, that's like pulling me down, if that makes sense. So I, I look at what I can impact today, and I look at what we need to be doing in order to achieve the next 2, 3, 4 months. Like, if we had had this conversation 14 months ago, no one would have been able to forecast what was going to happen.

No one.

In the world because it was impossible. And I think that having contingency plans of, okay, if this isn't working, let's focus on this, but also being quite goal-oriented, short, medium, long term, allows you to not worry about the big picture and get, you know, bogged down by it. Taking one thing at a time and really focusing on that and really focusing on how that can work and how you can influence those particular points is the most important.

I love that. Look, as we come to an end here, let's just talk about specifically the last 6 to 12 months. I've seen you guys posting how you've had a really good year and these types of things. I guess, like, obviously we would have all faced our own challenges, personal, professional. But I don't know what, if I'm asking you now in retrospective, I don't know, we're still sort of working through this, but it seems like a lot of the floodgates have opened. I keep hearing that, got loads of jobs, new candidates, all these types of things where it was different 12, 14 months ago. I don't know, what sort of things do you put it down to that enabled you guys to have your best year since you've had, or double, like still double? Because a lot of people, yeah, would have had the opposite mindset and would have just sort of scaled back and thought, right, let's just survive? Like, I don't know, what are some of the things you boil it down to as to why you guys are able to push on and create that success?

Yeah, I think that the— I think that's like, for me, it's testament to like my team because without their like focus and thought process of wanting to do that and again their ambition, it's not achievable. Like, if I want to do it but they don't we're not going to do it. It's impossible. So having them on board with that, with that idea, and having them, you know, really sort of, again, like, again, go back to it, like, being entrepreneurial and thinking about their business and what their business needs, that was like a game changer. That's so important. Um, we were fortunate that without any sort of, uh, like, like, for example, Chapman Black was one of our biggest competitors, so that they disappeared. That helped, I can imagine. Of course. Although, like, when you cut the head off, lots of different businesses—

Yeah, quite a few people started their own, didn't they? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the next step, which again, like, that's really, really good to see. And a lot of people that I work with now have their own businesses, which is also, like, there's a healthy competition there, I can imagine, as well. But, Back to the point, like, I think that that experience gave us an opportunity to sort of push forward and push on, and our market didn't really suffer necessarily because of it, which was, again, like being in tech, being in like the future as such, that allows that. It's a billion-dollar industry that's going to continue to develop at a significant rate, and I don't think that they were going to allow anything to stop them. So that obviously helped us as well. And coming back to like the operations part, like nowadays, like having the right infrastructure, having laptops, having cloud calls and all that sort of stuff, having all that stuff that allows you to do that, like 15 years ago or even 10 years ago when I started, this wouldn't have been possible. Like you wouldn't, wouldn't have been able to continue and it would have had a far more detrimental like knock-on effect to people's jobs and welfare and all that sort of stuff.

Yeah, I love that. So look, before I go into sort of the quickfire questions to finish this off, I've just got one or two more things I want to ask you finally. So you've spoken a lot around getting the right people. You've worked really hard on getting that right. So I guess what I just wanted to hear from you are what are the sort of three non-negotiables for the Connecting Experts culture that they, they, they're, they're just the 3 parts of your culture that everyone sort of abides by that you think is enabled, is going to continue to enable you guys to grow?

Um, the, the main, like, the biggest thing for us in terms of, like, culture, in terms of, of, uh, yeah, success or whatever it is, is positive attitude. Uh, yeah. Like, if you, if you come in and you don't have a positive attitude, I can almost guarantee you will struggle to succeed. So for me, number 1, positive attitude. Number 2, like, work rate. Being, you know, really, really focused on what you want to achieve and how you want to do it and where you want to go and that sort of stuff. Like, just, just every day doing everything you possibly can in terms of work rate is super important. And the third, because a lot of the people that we hire are young, and even if they weren't young, I think learning, you know, being open to learn and being open to take, not criticism, but like critique and just wanting to develop as a person. That for me is so important.

Love that. So before the quickfire question round, I love asking this question and the question is, Like, what do you think is the most important KPI that contributes to recruiter success?

Most important KPI? Yeah, uh, I'd say candidate, like, candidate calls. If you're kind of driven, yeah, like, then you know everything that's happening. Best recruiters know everything that's going on. They know who the candidates are. That, that was always the good thing, like, when I started. It was like, okay, build your top 250, but make sure you're speaking to candidates on a on a daily basis. Make sure you're speaking to loads of people. So you could say call time, but aimless call time is pointless. So after candidate calls and getting yourself known by the candidates and knowing what a good candidate looks like is what's— the candidate is your product. So if you know what your product is and you know how to sell it, yeah, that's the thing.

You just said there, build your top 250. What's that? What do you mean by that?

Oh, basically we used to, on paper, we used to write down 250 names of people with their mobile numbers and whatever else, like for business development. So it's a bit like, okay, write up your top 250, but make sure, like, decision makers, but make sure you're speaking to candidates on a daily basis, you know what's going on.

Yeah, got it, love that. Right, final questions. So first question is, okay, If you could change the industry, what would you improve?

The, like, cowboy-ness to it, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I don't know if you're much of a reader, but I want to know what book have you read that's had the biggest impact on you? Could be something you watched or maybe listened to if you're not a reader.

Uh, I don't, I don't— well, the biggest thing that I read now is The Economist, um, and, and just general news about what's going on in the world. I think it's important, uh, to open up your mind and to see how and what is happening. Um, but would I have said that 10 years ago? Probably not. I would have watched something like Wall Street or something like that.

Right, I'm interested to hear this one, mate. What did you spend your first biggest commission paycheck on?

Uh, so I love watches. Um, so even now, like, that's what I would— that's what I'd always spend money on.

Watches. What was the first watch then, mate? Share. What was the first watch that you bought with the commission?

To the foot, the The first— so the first watch I bought was a, was a Roadster, Cartier Roadster. But like, that wasn't necessarily like— it was, it was nice, but it wasn't a big watch. But like, when I was— when I got like a massive paycheck for a big quarter I did, and I went and bought an Audemars, um, and yeah, that was like the first like big thing that I had.

Love that. Right, final question. What What's the ultimate goal for your recruitment career or business? Can keep it business. What's the ultimate goal for your recruitment business?

Uh, it's a good question. Um, it will 100% evolve as time develops, but I would say that the first goal— the biggest, sorry, the ultimate goal for us is to be, uh, worldwide renowned for what we do. Um, it's not about size, it's not about Revenue, those are byproducts of being as a business successful. So I would say for us to be, to have international footprint, to be recognized, however that will be, we'll have to work on that over time, but being recognized for being, for delivering world-class, you know, services and talent to the businesses that we work with, that would be like for me the ultimate goal on an international, you know, scale.

Ross, thanks. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for coming on.

Yeah, no problem.

Thank you.