Ryan Adams - Growing a Global Recruitment Agency from scratch to £6 million turnover in 3 years

Thanks for having me. Good morning.

Good morning. Well, yeah, good afternoon. Good morning. So look, Ryan, been looking forward to this. I think, I think it's safe to say there'll be a lot of people keen to know the Ryan Adams story, mate. We see you all over LinkedIn. We see you online. So I'm excited to talk about the realities and what's going on. Right. So where I always like to start on this podcast, mate, is how did Ryan Adams enter the world of recruitment? Let's start there.

Okay, so many moons ago now, probably showing my age a little bit.

How long you been in the industry for?

I think 12 or 13 years. Let's go with 12.

12, okay, cool.

Yeah, 2007, I think, off the top of my head.

Okay.

Kind of early 20s, as most people do. So yeah, really long story short, the way that I got into recruitment was I used to play semi-professional football, as I think a lot of recruiters did. And I've done pretty well out of my football career. Okay. Back in the heyday, and I played for a team called Tooting and Mitcham who were in the Ryman League.

Yeah.

And, you know, I used to get on a bus, get on a train, tram, taxis all over the place just to play football alongside being a personal banker banker at the time at Barclays Bank. And there was this guy that played for my team, a mixed race guy, always in like tailored suits, sharp shoes, had a Rolex, fresh haircut, just looked the part, basically wanted to be like him. Just for reference, he's a guy called Paul Bogle, who I'm sure a lot of your audience will probably know. And he worked for a company called Esprit. Started my career working in the brand Computer Futures.

Yeah. So he sold you the dream.

He sold me the dream. Yeah.

Okay, man.

If you want to be like me, why don't you come and meet my company in London? We do recruitment. Had no idea what recruitment even was back then. But yeah, hey, I mean, if I can get a Rolex and a nice suit like this guy, then happy days. Okay, so I've never looked back.

Just to frame it up then. So entered the world of recruitment. And so how long did you work at Esprit for?

I worked at Esprit for maybe about a year and a half, so not very long, to be fair.

So 18 months, and then is that when you joined Consul?

Yeah, so, uh, actually no, sorry, that's a lie. Um, I have to go back way— this is like an interview, I've not done this for a long time. Um, so yeah, I had about a year and a half at Esprit and it was amazing, like really, really enjoyed it. Learned recruitment the hard way. With some amazing, amazing recruiters. So Dave and Ashley, who own Trust in Soda.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some very good people.

Yeah, some amazing, amazing people. And I had an amazing time there. I was a contract biller, Rookie of the Year, went on incentive trips, hit lunch clubs, got my run rate up to about $40K per month and was doing really well. And I decided that I wanted to go and work for a smaller company and be a big fish in a small pond. So made the brave decision to leave and I joined a company called Devonshire who may, maybe not as well known as some of the other companies that I've worked for, but worked there for about a year and a half as well.

Okay. So worked there for a year and a half. So yeah. So 3 years between those 2 companies, then joined Consul Partners where you had a real solid stint, like 6 and a bit years. And then that's, and then after that you then obviously decided to start your own recruitment business. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Consul was probably one of the biggest defining moments of my career because I spent nearly 7 years there and most of my 20s. And I learned a hell of a lot there, right? I joined them as a senior recruiter and left as a shareholder and a director. So a lot of the stuff that I have taken with me into my new business, I probably learned at Consul.

Yeah, I think that's very— that can be quite typical, can't it? For a lot of people. So as I said, mate, before we started this, we're definitely going to focus on the Signify journey. But I guess with you just sharing that, that it was a pivotal moment to you, a pivotal part of your career, I guess what, what, what's just come out that when you're sharing that, which I think would be really interesting, there'll be a lot of people listening that are probably aspiring to own part of the business that they work in as an employee. So I guess in hindsight, what, what do you think are some of the contributing factors to you getting to that point? Because I think a lot of people will be working to that So looking back, how do you think that you got to that point of owning part of that business?

Yeah, it's a good question. So I joined them when they were only probably about 2 years old and sub-10 people.

So that helps firstly, doesn't it, when you're at the early part of the journey?

Exactly. So I think, yeah, taking the risk on kind of a startup, I guess, that weren't really well known in the market. Definitely buying into the leaders, like working Mark and Graham was really, really cool. They're both like super inspirational, motivational, and just like real, real hard workers. And they train a lot of the stuff that I do in my daily life right now.

Okay.

In my early 20s. So yeah, just choosing a business that's going somewhere, right? And super ambitious, big growth plans. They didn't actually do contract recruitment before I started there. So me and another guy were tasked with building their contract division from scratch. They also didn't do my market either. So it was a big risk, but definitely paid off. And I learned a lot there. I learned a hell of a lot. I was one of their biggest billers. I grew a team from scratch and yeah, it was really fun. We went from 10 people to 100-odd people, grew our headcount, grew the NFI, opened offices in LA, no surprise, places in the US. So, okay. I guess, yeah, just choosing a company that you really believe is going to go somewhere and whilst they grow, they also give you the opportunity to grow as well. And I went from a senior to a team leader to a manager to a director. So it was a really fun journey.

So I guess, did you take that? Because what it seems like there from you sharing that is, I think it's fair to say that you delivered a lot of value, right? So you started something that they didn't have, etc. So, but did you proactively and consciously have those conversations of, 'Look guys, really buy into you and really see the opportunity here, but just so you know, this is what I'm gunning for. Like, I do want to be part of this company. I do want to add tremendous amounts of value.' So, because I think that's the thing where when you are in a smaller business, you've got, you've got to want it and show that you want it and say, 'Look, this is where I want to be, guys. This is where I want to take us.' So you're proactive with that?

Yeah, definitely. I'm really, really proactive. I think that was part of my— I'll be honest with you, in my early career, like most recruiters, I didn't really know what I wanted. I just fell into the I just fell into the job and, you know, my time at S3 was very KPI-driven, very military style, like hardcore. And then Devonshire was the other end of the spectrum. It was no KPIs, very fluffy as such, and really relaxed, which was great. But I realized that I wanted something in the middle, right? So I wanted kind of a company that was going to push me, but give me that growth potential. Because I'd started my own desk and I was a 360 new business winner. I knew confidently that I could do that again at Console. I just needed the opportunity to like own something and kind of be able to build that. So yeah, starting a contract division from scratch, doing software engineering from scratch. And yeah, it was, it was an amazing opportunity. And, you know, I've got a lot of fun memories working in that company that I hold really close to my heart.

Awesome, mate. Love that. So look, let's segue into your own business then. So with that in mind then, did you always have, like, did you, had you always wanted to have your own business?

Yeah, I guess so. I'm a very, for anyone that knows me that's listening will probably tell you that I'm super goals orientated. So throughout my career, from probably like, you know, early 20s, I've always set like really aggressive goals most months and most years. And I'm really hard hard on myself if I don't hit those goals. So, um, okay, you know, some of those have included like, you know, billing X, buying property, going on holidays, just all the fine things that you get to do in recruitment. But one of them was that by the age of 30, I want to own my own business.

Why is it it's always 30? It's always funny, isn't it? What, what happened? Like, I'm 26, mate, but like, what is it, what is it that's in people's head? It's like, 30, I've got to have a house, I've got to do this, I've got my own business.

I know it sounds really stupid, right? But I feel like I matured really quickly in many ways in my life. So I owned my first property at 20, which I thought was an amazing achievement.

For sure.

You know, went on nice holidays, got that Rolex, done all the things you typically do as a recruiter, but owning my own business, I just felt like I could have done it before, but I wanted to kind of get as much experiences as I could. And I felt like at 30, I was probably at the level and probably the maturity that I could go and do that and know that I wasn't going to make mistakes, if that makes sense.

Or as many mistakes, I got you. I mean, I guess being more sure of yourself as well and who Ryan Adams is and—

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

And in my early years, I was very immature in loads of ways and made a lot of mistakes and I was probably a dick to a lot of people. And at 30, I feel that I was just in a much better place. I was married, I had kids, I owned a family home. I just had a lot more life experience. And I felt that I would be a better leader to people, if I'm honest. And, you know, owning your own business isn't always about running a lifestyle business or just being a big biller. I generally wanted to be the best leader to people. So I think that when I look back on my 20s, I did make a lot of mistakes. And at 30, I felt like I was fully ready and I knew who I was. I had my own authentic identity and I felt like I could really inspire and motivate people. And that's absolutely what I've gone on to do.

Awesome, mate. So cool. So let's just frame it up and we'll break down this sort of journey to date, mate. So you started your own business, Signify, and it's been going for how long now?

So I started the business in July 2016. So this year in July will be 4 years old.

4 years. Cool. So you started it on your own, right? Just Ryan Adams? Yeah.

Started on my own, but I did start in an office with employees and that was a pretty brave move. You know, a lot of people start really slow and then once they build momentum, they start to build out a team. But I just wanted to go hard from day one and I thought it's all or nothing, right? I'm either going to make it or I'm going to fail. So.

Okay, mate. So let's break down this year one then, because I think a lot of people, that's what people are most worried about, right? When they're thinking about starting a business, the fear of the first year. So year one then. So you said straight out of the bat, Straight out, you hired people in year one?

So day one, started in an office in London, myself, two full-time employees. And day one, like, I mean, the internet wasn't even working. I should have probably just had a couple of days on my own being a bit— I was too excited. The logo's on the wall, the phones are on. So yeah, myself and two others.

So did you get investment then, or did you—

No, but an important thing to tell your listeners is I didn't get investment. But what I'd done was I went through the investment process with two really big, well-known companies or people.

Okay.

And that for me was just a process that I wanted to go through to ensure that they backed me, which they did.

Okay.

And I got the option to get the investment, which I declined. But it really helped me just to sense check my business plan and all of the ideas that I had were right.

Yeah, that's smart.

And I kind of got that and that gave me the confidence just to get out there, throw myself in the deep end and absolutely smash it.

Okay, mate. Cool. So year 1 then. So what, just to frame it up. So the end of year 1, what did your business look like? So how many people did you have? Yeah. Like what, let's just frame that up and then we'll break it down.

Oh God. That's a tough question. I'll be honest. I can't remember what I had for dinner last night, let alone the first year. I want to say we were like double figures headcount. I can't remember exactly, I didn't prepare for that question.

That's fine, mate. What did you do revenue-wise?

I think we've done £1.5 million. All right, let's fucking start.

New market, let's fucking break that down because they're like, how the fuck has Ryan done that, right? So let's break that down. So £1.5 million in first year. So I was a perm recruiter, right? So you built a contract So was it heavily contracts in that year one or was it a split or?

Surprisingly, so I'm a contract biller. I've always been a contract biller. Now I value perm, but before I used to be like, perm means nothing. I'm a contract. But yeah, the first year was heavily focused on perm. And I had to do perm deals for the first time in my life.

Was that in your business plan?

It was kind of more focused on contract. We thought that we'd probably be about 60% contract and 40% perm. And first year we were probably more 70% perm 30% contract. So, it was surprising. What I realised in the first year was that it was very difficult for big brands to trust a startup to do contract when I was doing a new market. I didn't have any relationships. Whereas a lot of people that start their own business go into doing the same market that they've always done. And even if they're meant to or not, because of their restrictions, they normally bring client contacts with them. One of the things that I wanted to do was really respect Mark and Graham at Console. I didn't want to break my restrictions. And also I wanted to build a business that was slightly different to theirs and I didn't want to have a crossover. So honestly, I had to, I had to just pick a new market that I'd never worked before.

So how did you— no, mate, respect. Like how? Okay. So how— let's break it down. First 6 months, as you said, got in, you had employees, didn't have the phones on, but you had the logo on the wall. Like what, how, how did you start acquiring clients? Like, how did you, what did you do?

So it was really tough, really, really tough at times. I'll be honest with you, I was tempted to just think, hey, you know, let me break my restrictions. No one's ever going to know, but I thought, yeah, I'm better than that. And I wouldn't want someone to do that to me. So to begin with, it was all candidate-focused, like go out, speak to candidates, CV strip, lead generate, take your candidates to the market, reverse market, BD calls. Just really just build a footprint, like listen to what's happening in the market. The good news was that I had like a lot of people that I knew that I'd either worked with before that had gone internal or that I was connected to on LinkedIn. And my first two client wins, the first one was actually Sky.

Okay.

It was awesome. So first client win, Sky. Second client win was British Gas.

Yeah. So you've got some good brands there, which helped.

Yeah. The first 3 months were absolutely horrific. So we made the choice, myself and the 2 guys that started with me, let's just absolutely swamp Sky. I mean, they've got multiple leads. Let's just send them every single engineer we can find. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, right? And we were getting rejected offers, final interviews not going our way. And for the first 3 months, we actually done no deals, no placements. Really? No placements. Wow. Month 1 was to be expected. Month 2, okay, cool. This is tight, guys. Month 3, I'm like, wow, I've made a mistake here.

This is— How much runway did you give yourself?

I probably gave myself about 6 months of, you know—

Not to lie, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So 6 months is like, you know, if I don't do a deal in 6 months, that's unheard of for me. As a recruiter, ask anyone that's ever worked for me, I've done new deals every single month. Every month without fail. You know, I'd start the month from zero, by the end of the month I'd find, you know, 50K.

You'd pull it out, yeah. So first 3 months, big fat zero, mate.

Zero. Month 4, month 4, it just came like buses. It's like, really?

And was it still with Sky?

Uh, yeah.

What changed?

Um, the quality of candidates that we were finding.

Really?

We actually understood the market a little bit better.

Really?

You know, we weren't just like looking at keywords on CVs. We're actually, you know, meeting the candidates, um, getting them to do tech tests ahead of, you know, first or second interview.

So you just up your game. You're just a bit— but the thing is that when you start in recruitment, as you know, mate, it may seem a lifetime ago, that's the hard part at the beginning, isn't it? Like, as you build more confidence and you speak to more people, like, fucking quality CV, I'm buzzing to get that out. Like, you just get better at that. So in the new market, that's expected, right?

Another key point, right, that was the two guys that started with me weren't doing software engineering recruitment before, and they hadn't done my market, Scala, either. So we're all kind of going into it a little bit flat-footed, but you know what, in hindsight, I wouldn't have changed it because it really made us work hard for it. And then when those deals started coming in, we really had that unity, and we'd been through the worst that we're ever going to go through. And apart from those 3 months at the beginning, the rest of the time has been absolutely fine.

So how, how Let's just, like, how did you get through that time then, mate? Because I think a lot of people could have packed the bags in at that stage. So I guess, especially when you brought two people along for the ride, right? This isn't just you at home in your bedroom, like, knocking it out. This is, you've got, you've brought in people to come on the ride.

So, I'll be honest, I thrive under pressure. Like, I love it. That fire under my bum. I just, you know, I had every single person I'd ever worked with probably rooting for me to to fail for whatever reasons. I'd walked away from shares in a business that imminently was about to sell. So I had that there as well. And being honest with you, I'd done this at the worst time in the world.

I was getting married. Yeah. Did you have a child on the way?

Yeah. So I was getting married.

Mate, do you know how many times this has come up? Honestly, it's mad. Is it because you're like, right, if I don't do it now, I'm never going to do it?

No, I was just really stupid.

Alright. Fair. Fair.

I had all these aspirations and plans, right? And I just done them all in 12 months. It was absolutely ludicrous. So to give you guys and your listeners a bit of a timeline. So December 2016, I'm getting married and, you know, I'm earning really good money at Consul in a secure job that I'd been in for nearly 7 years. So I thought, well, what the hell? I'm going to just push the boat out. You know, I'm going to go absolutely wild. Whatever my wife wants. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

So we're spending crazy money on a wedding in December 2016. We just had a little boy. So our little boy was born in September 2015. My wife's on maternity, so she's got no income. And then we just bought our family home, which we moved into in December 2015, which was just, again, so you've got some sort of indication, like 4-bed detached house in a pretty hefty area. And then March 2016, I kind of, I had that ick that I was going to leave, right? But I always imagined that I was going to just take it all the way up until December. 2016. Then I was going to hand my notice and start in January 2017. And in March I just decided like, look, enough's enough. I'm handing my notice. I'm walking away. And then I started the business in July 2016 after being—

Wow. So you still had the bad boy wedding to pay for, the big brother's wedding to pay for and all that. And you wasn't doing any deals for 3 months.

It was tough. And then to make matters worse, Consol sold their business in October 2016 and I gave my shares back and got zero from the sale. So what was your You do know. Oh mate, a lot of money. Let's just say enough to— enough.

So is it fair to say then that you had a bit of chip on your shoulder then? You had to make this work. There was no— you know that whole analogy of you go to an island and you burn the boats? Like that, there's no turning back here.

I had no way back. That was it. I had no way back. It was, I'm either going to make this work and we're going to be successful or I'm going to fail and I'm going to have no money. But not only am I going to have no money, but I would have lost everything that I'd worked for in my 20s. And I just wasn't prepared for that.

So there's no way that was an option.

To be honest with you, to answer your question, how I got through that first year was I was ruthless. Like I worked every single minute and hour that God sent. You know, I worked in the evenings, at the weekends. I just done everything possible to pull myself and my business out of that situation. And You know, after month 3, month 4, 5, 6, as we got to the end of the year, that first 6 months, we actually done really well and we made profit in our first year. Most startups don't do that. So we grew our headcount, we grew our customer base, and we made profit. So it was a tough first year.

So, okay. So let's just break down those, as you were saying, let's just break down those 9 months then, because in 9 months you did £1.5 million in revenue, right? So obviously, as you said, you got better at identifying and understanding what the hell was a good candidate, working with some good brands. What were some of the key things that sort of built up the momentum and you think were a key factor to you ending that year in profit and having a good first year?

So the main thing that every one of your listeners will probably know about our business is that we are a niche expert. So we focus on one market together. And that was one of the things that I took from the investment meetings, like pick a market, become famous in it, hunt in packs. And together you're all going to be able to identify candidates, win customers, and then you're just basically going to collaborate. You know, so if someone in the room's got an amazing candidate that doesn't have a role, he could send that candidate to your customer.

Same. And how did you identify that niche? Just—

I got a bit lucky as you do.

Yeah, fair enough.

But, you know, my contact, I used to work with him actually, Zach Conn. I'm sure a lot of your listeners will know him from S3. He was a great, great biller, a great manager. He worked at Sky as their head of recruitment. And he tried to hit me up to come work internal. And I just said to him, look, I'm going to start my own business. And he was like, cool, I'll give you your first account. Like, there's some roles, like, you guys can help me and I'll help you. So, yeah.

Well, and some of those first roles were the niche that you ended up focusing on?

With Scala. And at the time I was just like, Zach, I'll be honest with you. I have no idea what Scala is.

What is Scala?

I still don't know. It is a backend functional programming language, very similar to Java.

It's a specific language.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

So companies that use Java are moving to Scala.

Yeah.

Okay.

So your niche is that. So when we talk about how niche to go, because like from obviously you interact in I'm sure speaks to a lot of recruitment business owners now. Like how, in your opinion, knowing what you know now, but how important was it for you to actually really go the whole like mile deep, really?

Imperative. Yeah. I'll go as far as saying without our niche, we wouldn't be where we are today. And our niche has been everything for us. But also a big thing for us has been a community focus. So we run our own meetups.

Yeah, I saw that.

We've got a blog section which gets a lot of hits. We have a full-time marketing manager, which I think is really important. We sponsor conferences.

Okay, man.

We just do a lot around community and that for us with our niche has been fundamental.

Yeah, nice. So those 9 months really got into your niche, really starting to nail that. I guess also part of that then, how did you find hiring for your own business? Because that's always a challenge. I get loads of messages about it. Yeah, but how, how was that first 9 months working out what the fuck is a good hire for my business? Like, how did that—

really tough.

Yeah.

And, um, to be fair, what we, what we chose to do, and it was again really bold of us, but we didn't want to hire experienced recruiters. Yeah, I wanted to hire people that come from a sales background or a customer service background. I wanted to teach them how to do recruitment. Um, again, you know, one of the things that I love is, is really being a great leader and mentoring and training people. So sure, I just kind of felt that if I was going to go and hire the best recruiters in the market, I probably wouldn't be doing them the best service. So sure, yeah, in the early days we hired people from a non-recruitment background and we trained them ourselves. So today, 3 and a half years later, 85% of our business is new to the recruitment industry, all really by me.

85%, yeah, trained by Ryan Adams.

Exactly, loads of Ryan Adams. Running around. Okay, God help the world.

Okay, cool. So going into year 2 then, mate, I'm sure reflects on that, right? Had a good first year. What was going through your head then going into year 2 then? Because you, quite frankly, you're clearly an ambitious person. But going into year 2 then, what was the growth plan like? Because you now had some money to— like, was the plan always to reinvest in the business? Like, what was the growth plan going into year 2?

Yeah. So year 1, completely focused on doing UK recruitment.

UK recruitment, yeah.

Yeah. Year 2 in the strategy was, right, let's get out to Europe. So we want to attack Europe and take this global. So we started working in the German market, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Spain, Italy. And before we knew it, we were like truly a global business.

Really?

And that happened in year 2. And yeah, we placed all over the place, relocating candidates, which is really cool. A lot of customers valued that, that you could bring candidates in that don't need a visa from a different European country. And we might be able to even save ourselves some money because the salaries were lower.

What was the strategy? Was it the same strategy to penetrate those markets? Like, did you do anything smart or learn from that?

Yeah. So the biggest thing that got us into the European markets was sponsoring conferences in those countries. In front of our clients and our candidates. And using social media was a big part of it. So really just getting our brand out there, blogging, attracting candidates. So actually, now that you say it, one of our biggest sourcing methods is our own website. So we get candidates sign up to our website looking for a job. Last year, our top performing, sorry, our third top performing source code was our own website. So branding, yeah, our branding really has paid off.

That's mental. So, okay then. So how much was you investing in that in year 1 and year 2 then? Like, how much would you invest in that in year 2?

To be honest, our website doesn't cost us loads, but we just, we've been really cute and smart with it. So we just blog a lot, which means that people are coming to our website to learn. And then by them seeing your brand and learning, when they're then looking for a job, they, hey, these guys are pretty cool. So our website doesn't cost us a lot. But if you look at it, it doesn't recruitment website. It's quite a cool, um, sort of like tech digital kind of feel to it.

Yeah, yeah.

And we've got two full-time marketing managers that help us to push our brand.

Yeah.

So our website has been amazing for us. But if we go backwards, the main thing is our brand and our market and social media presence. So they're all very interlinked. And then the community as well.

Okay, so just a quick one on that, mate, because like, is it fair to say that at Consul, how much experience did you have invested in marketing and doing that?

Zero. Yeah, exactly.

Do you know what I mean? So like, so like, it's just like, and there'll be a lot of people listening that it's still zero and they have their own business, right? So like, knowing what you know now, like, what would be the advice you give yourself on the sort of marketing brand piece that—

Go big from the beginning.

Go big, really.

Being honest with you, I'm not going to say I or Signify have made the marketing this way and climb. But if you're a recruitment company now and you're not doing this, then you're going to get left behind by your competition. Yeah, I think that the world is moving much more to an internet-based video, and developers and clients want to be able to feel that personality through the people that they're interacting with. So it's fundamental. We found that very quickly. We were 6 months old and I think I hired a full-time marketing manager. Really? And then we went—

did you get— did you get advice to do that?

Like, no, it was just something I just— something that I just really wanted to do. I tried to advise Console quite a lot about this, and, you know, for whatever reason, that's, that's how they chose to run their business. But for me, I just thought, actually, I really want to be big on social media. I want to have a presence, and yeah, you know, have marketing literature that we can give to our candidates and clients so that people know our brand and they, and they want to use us. I wanted to be like a recruitment company of choice rather than you know, I was needing to always knock doors. I wanted people to come to us, which absolutely does happen.

Of course, everyone wants that, right? So, okay, mate. And then quick one on that, because I think again, people's experience with that challenges would be, because you said that, which is really interesting. You said that the third, yeah, the third, what is it, most used source code in candidates' place was your own website. So how did you, like, learnings on how did you go about very quickly tracking it then and measure? Because clearly you're measuring it then because you know that 'You're spending X and well, look, there's a source code here.' So how did you manage that?

So the first thing is, I would say to everyone, make sure you get your CRM database in order. And when your consultants are adding candidates or clients to your database, they should be using source code. So every single time someone's added, you can see where they came from. So you can see your return on investment. So that's just a really basic thing.

Yeah, so really drill that.

Yeah, in terms of our website, we have a backend, so you get to log in. And if you're an admin user, which, most of my team are, then you can see candidates that are signing up, what they're signing up for, and what they're looking for. And then you then get one of your recruiters based on the location of that candidate just to follow up with them, brief them, send them out to the roles. And as I said, it's been amazing. Last year, I think we— I can't remember the number off the top of my head without looking at my business plan, but it probably is something like £400,000 or £500,000 worth of placements we made.

Really? Fucking hell. And that's the part that a lot of people lack, right? When— because when you would be speaking to business owners or recruiters, they go, 'Yeah, but I'm not sure.' Do you know what I mean? So that's fair play to you, mate, to actively from the get-go really hammer that home and measure that. Because that's always the trouble with, 'Okay, Ryan, but what's the ROI, mate?' And you're clearly articulating that and know that, because that makes you more comfortable then investing more in it, right?

100%. And that's something that we've already been hot on. You know, like every single month I do a business presentation back to my team on what we achieved last month, clients we've done deals with, locations, source codes, challenges, successes. And everyone can see it. So every single month we talk about this stuff. So we don't just leave it until the end of the year. Always looking at new methods.

Always looking at— nice, mate.

It really, really helps.

Year 2, mate, what did that look like? What did you end revenue-wise? What was that, mate?

The clearest way is that we've grown by 100% year on year for 3 years.

So 3 years. So what's that?

I think year 2 we done 3 point—

3 something.

3.2, 3. 3, something like that.

Before we go into year 3, year 4 then, like, how, like, again, let's break that down, mate, because again, I know you're clearly someone, because a lot of people, a lot of, I've quoted this a few times, like, you can only be what you see, right? And I think clearly you're someone, you wanted to go big from the very start, and these sort of numbers you're saying just off the cuff, a lot of people may think is unrealistic and not achievable, right? So I'm assuming by that point you had quite a few people in your business But how did you keep up that momentum? Obviously you said that you went straight out of the UK market, started penetrating all different markets, but how did you continue that momentum and maximise the people that you've got in your business?

Definitely. So yeah, the average deal values in the European market are big. There's certainly less competition, so I think that helps as well.

So that was a big factor?

Yeah, that's a big factor. But again, I'm just going to sound like a broken record, like having a niche market and becoming experts in it, really, really helps. You've got clear USPs that you can use to open doors. Having a team that are collaborating and hunting in packs definitely helps. Social media presence. And we just had an amazing client base. Like, being honest with you, like, our customer base— sometimes I pitch myself, I'm like, wow, like, we work with some incredible clients. And there's a high volume of roles, so we've been quite delivery-focused. We don't often need to go and win more customers because we've got so many. We just need to deliver on those that we have already.

That's interesting. And by that point, what was the split in contract and perm? Did that start even itself out or was it still quite perm?

Slightly. Yeah. Year 2, we started to see contract pay off a little bit because some of the customers that we've been working with on the perm basis and delivering on, they then started to open up their contractor vacancies to us. And also when you have to provide documentation to get onto large preferred supplier list, we then had some sort of history so we can show people that, you know, we can run contractors, we do have money in the bank. These are some customers that have given us testimonials and, you know, there was a bit more proof in the pudding as such, whereas in the first year it was like, hey, please trust me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe, you know, don't want to trust you. I'm not sure you're a guy that looks very trustworthy.

Yeah, fair.

Yeah, so yeah, we had a bit more history.

Yeah, biggest challenge in year 2 then, mate? All sounds positive. What would you say was the biggest challenge in that year 2, second year?

Real basic stuff like time, you know, time's precious. Um, just trying to be—

I'm sure you're getting pulled pillar to post, right?

Exactly that. Be a leader, be a biller. Um, sort out payroll. Just, you're pulled in so many different directions. Teammaker.

And the thing is, like, you hadn't— you obviously scaled teams, stuff like that, but you hadn't scaled the recruitment business before. So did you seek any help or get advice at this stage, like in year 2, or like how— yeah, how did you know you was doing the right thing?

So I lent a lot on my experience with Consul, which was valuable, right? Being a board member and a shareholder in a business that done exactly what I was planning to do really helped. I also joined a couple of different forums. So the RDLC was great because you're in a forum of loads of different recruitment business owners who are going through the same sort of challenges as you. And what was really nice there was just to compare, but to never settle to being like what everyone else was talking about. I always just looked at everyone and thought, yeah, it's great, but I want to do more and be better and grow faster.

So where's that come from, mate? Where's that mental— like, how? Why?

Probably just my sports background. Like, I played football since, since, you know, a young boy and played for pro clubs and semi-pro clubs. And I've always been a captain or wanted to be the best at football. So I think just that competitive nature of just always wanting to be the best me. Um, and if someone else is doing better than me, I absolutely love it. Like, I'd actually reach out to that person and be like, hey man, you're absolutely smashing it. You know, what are you doing differently? How can I be more like you? And if you do that with, you know, hundreds of people along your career, then it's only going to enhance what you're doing. So I like surrounding myself with like really successful people, whether they're recruitment or non-recruitment, and just thinking that, hey, I want to be like that guy.

Because I think the thing is, I'm sure you've experienced it, right? Like you have that mentality, clearly have that huge drive. But as you're growing this business, the the sort of, what's the word, for you to expect that everyone else will have that Ryan Adams fire is unfair, right? Do you know what I mean? It's like, how did you, how was you cultivating that clear drive, fire? Look guys, look, this is what you may be seeing from other people, but look, our standards in the bar's here. But how do you start cultivating that around people?

I think just that, right? It starts with your interview process. And, you know, if you're looking to grow a business and you want mediocre, then you go and hire mediocre and then your environment mediocre. Whereas for me, I'm like, I want to cherry-pick people that are motivated, driven, hungry, super ambitious. And they might not be me, but I'm going to make them the best version of theirself. And I do some things that I don't know if everyone does this in their business, but before someone starts, I get them to write me just a short document, nothing too heavy. Like, you know, how do you like being managed? What are your goals inside of work and outside of work? Where do you want to be in the next 'What can I do to get the very best out of you?' And then when you see that, you can kind of see what someone's aspiring to be like. And a lot of things we do in our environment, I think, really helps. So we focus on like productivity. So I'm not saying that everyone has to, but if you are active, so if you're playing sports or going to the gym or cycling or running, then that will probably help to clear your mind and help you to be more productive at work and have more energy.

Okay.

And then we also focus on just doing like team activities, which could be a 10K or a 5K run or Tough Mudder. Just things that are going to get people's like competitive nature and team spirit out. And if someone has goals and you help them to achieve their goals, then they're going to become more motivated and a better version of themselves. So that's been a key driver for me. Every single person in my company never set goals before they worked here. And now every single person, even my back office staff have goals.

That's awesome.

I love seeing people do well.

That, mate, that honestly, I think that's wicked. And again, it sounds quite simple, but this came up quite recently actually, and they, um, it was that, it was, it was in a smaller business, but he was saying that what he does at the beginning of each year is he gets his, uh, people to write out what they want their job description to look like. Um, and yeah, so I think what, what I really like about that is that the people that you want are the people that are accountable and responsible for what they want. And sometimes it's got— it can't just be like, okay, so your target is $200K. Okay, great. But like you're making them decide and think about what they want. And it's more than, as you said, it's quite a lot of things that that can be, right?

I think that with the goals, right, that people find it uncomfortable to begin with and Being honest with you, I've got a very diverse business. I think that's another really key thing. So I've got diverse in terms of like colour. Hey, I'm a black guy, if someone didn't notice. But like, I've got a diverse business in terms of different colours, different shapes and sizes. But I've also got quite a lot of women in my company. That was something that I set out from at the very beginning, is I wanted to have like a diverse business. I didn't want to be male-dominated because women are great at a lot of things. And I think to have a harmonious environment, you need to have women in there. Early on, it becomes very difficult to hire women. So I've got some amazing, independent, strong women in our company that have absolutely smashed it. So going back to the goal thing, I think that a lot of these people that work for me right now never ever liked setting goals and never did. And 3 and a half years later, I'm looking at so many people in my company that own properties for the first time or multiple properties, have got themselves out of debt. Started families, have bought a nice car, gone on holidays, got their driving licence. Like just little things, but that's what's important to them. And now that I know what makes someone tick, it helps me to motivate them.

That was going to be my next point. I'm so glad you said that because that's come up a lot. When Ryan Adams, the leader, knows that, right, so you know what that person's got to do to really sort of be the best employee they can be for you as commercially. But you know that they're motivated to get a house or they're motivated to this, this, and this. You're like, when they're having a shit day, it's like, look, Ryan, are you like, do you want that or not? Do you want that? Yeah. So that's, I love the way that you said that because yeah, then you know what buttons to push and you know how to motivate people.

Everyone's different, right? Like me and you, although we both have done recruitment, we're not wired the same. Like we don't like the same things.

Yeah, for sure.

So I can't motivate you the same as I would motivate myself and the same as the next guy. So When you grow your business, I think to be a great leader, you really need to understand that everyone's different. Everyone doesn't want to be spoken to the same way or managed the same way. And the sooner you can identify how people like to be spoken to and how they like to be managed and what they're working towards, you can get the very best out of them. So I think that's been a fundamental thing for me. And I generally feel like I get on with all of my employees, even people that have left as well. And I really try to make sure I get the best out of them. I know that anyone that's worked for me or has left to go and work internal or start their own business or do whatever, will take a lot of the stuff that they've learned from me and take that into their personal and work life. And I really try and have like a positive impact on people as much as I can.

That's wicked, mate. So year 3 then, another 100% growth.

Yep.

So like, what— so with that, so when did— so you moved over to LA. When did you move over?

Yeah. So I moved to LA full-time September of last year, which was our third full year.

Third full year. So in the third year then, the growth plan was, did you start thinking about the US then?

Yeah. So we, so year one, all UK, year two, UK and Europe, year three, UK, Europe and US. So we started working in the US market full-time from January of last year. So 2019.

Why did you do that?

It was just in my business plan. So again, I'm very goals orientated. So I've written a very, very, very aggressive business plan, which is a 3-year plan at the very beginning of starting Signify. And each month, year, I'd look at that and just think, we've just got to do everything possible to get to these numbers because that's what I committed to myself I'm going to do. Year 3 was, we're going to work the US market and we're going to open an office in LA. And that's exactly what we did. Went on to do.

So how— so that whole year you spent building relationships, building business from the UK but in the US before you went over there?

It was very tough, I'm not gonna lie. Um, myself and two of the guys that now actually work with me in the LA office, which is nice, um, we sacrificed our personal life quite a lot. So we changed our working hours, we started at lunchtime and we stayed till like 9, 10 o'clock most nights.

Really?

And the challenge is, you, you know, you get home in the evening after your train journey and 11:30 at night, your clients and candidates in the US are still online because they're 8 hours behind you. It's only 2:00, 3:00 in the afternoon. Up nights where you're closing deals and you're up till 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. And then in the morning I want to get up so I can see my kids. So it was, you know, it was a really tough experience. I'm not going to lie. I think we all doubted ourselves at points and we were ready to throw the towel in because it was horrible. We've done it for a lot longer than we probably needed to.

But yeah, what were they like? What were the sort of milestones that you planned to get to in order for you to go, Right, I'm really confident now if we go to LA that we're going to—

It sounds mental saying this out loud right now, but I know a lot of people open an office, they move and then they just get off the ground. For me, I wanted us to build a customer base and do £1 million worth of revenue from the UK. And we've done that.

From the UK.

Yeah.

So that was the milestone.

Yeah. We've done that in 7, just under 8, call it 8 months.

So that's what you wanted to get to before you go, right, okay, let's go to LA and then we can continue building out. Yeah. Why a million?

It's just a nice round number. Really? Okay. Yeah. Sounds good, right?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, obviously personal challenges for sure. Work-life balance, young family. Sure, the missus wasn't too happy that you just strolling all the time. Like, do you know what I mean? That must have been a challenge. So, but what were the other challenges from the business side? Because as you know, as I'm sure you've seen, Like, there's a lot of people saying that the US, huge opportunities, bigger fees, loads of opportunity. But what were the challenges that came up to you getting to that million-pound mark?

Yeah. So I agree with all of those points that you've just said. Big opportunity, bigger deal values. All of the biggest tech companies in the world are mainly based in America, in San Francisco specifically. The challenge is this is a super competitive market. The UK— The UK market is very competitive, but you're competing against other recruitment agencies. You know, you very rarely have a lot of engineers or software engineers that engage direct with companies without using recruiters. In the US, it's a completely different ballgame. So really, mainly go direct to the companies because they've got massive internal recruiters and staffing agencies out here aren't that much of a big thing. So when you speak to an engineer, they're like, yeah, I've got like 20 interviews, but they're all direct with Google, Facebook, Twitter, Netflix, Airbnb, and then you're like, well, hey, I'm working with a couple of really early-stage startups. Do you fancy it? So it's very difficult in that sense. They don't want to talk to you on the phone. They don't value you as much.

So how did you overcome that then? How did you start penetrating?

Persevering, you know, persevering, sticking to our guns on we're going to bring the UK methodologies that are proven and work to this US market. Maybe watering down our aggressiveness and maybe not being as controlling as we would be in the UK and such, and just learning to balance the phone with email and with video and just trying to relax into the market a bit. And to be honest, we've been super successful out here so far. You know, there's only, what, 4 of us in the LA office at the moment. We're just about to add a 5th head, but we're also opening an office in Austin, Texas in the next couple of weeks.

How was the client acquisition piece? How difficult was that?

Not hard at all. Really? Yeah. I think that's a nice thing. And also I love BD, right? So you've got someone that loves BD, loves picking up the phone.

Yeah. But did you leverage the relationships in the UK who had places in the US?

Yeah, a couple. But a lot of it has been new business.

Really?

We're really well known in our market. If you find a Scala developer in the world that doesn't know who we are, I would be very, very surprised. That's, I know it's a bold statement, but we are the world's only Scala specialist agency. I know a lot of companies are trying to do our market because of our success, but we truly own this space.

Really? Okay. So let's sort of bring it full circle then. So I think a big part of that is, which I noticed is obviously the sort of the events piece and sponsoring events and You actually— so did you start an event series of some sort?

Yeah, we did. And that's been like truly amazing. So we started our own meetup in London, which is a monthly meetup, and we use that as a BD tool as well. So we hosted customers where we have a relationship, but we also host with new companies that use Scala. And each month we host at different places.

So we've hosted at like Monzo Bank, Net-a-Porter, Sky, Just, you know, and just quickly, just to make it really clear, because I've heard this a lot of times now and I think it'd be fair for a lot of people, Ryan, to say, nah, events have been done, like loads of people do and blah blah blah. So like, how was it? So firstly, BD, business development, which typically is difficult for a lot of people and businesses with a new business. How did it help them with business development?

Because you're going at a different angle. You don't need to talk about recruitment. You just go and say to someone like, hey, you guys use our technology. We're specialists in this space. We host an event which has around 100 to 150 engineers that attend each month. We would love to host it in your office to give you guys the chance to invite a lot of the community, see what you guys are working on, and you might get the chance to hire some of these guys direct. Would you like to host? We've got a slot available in X months. Someone would be crazy to say no to that.

Yeah, but obviously it can't have been that at the beginning though, right?

No, it really was. It was like you was getting 100, 150 software Engineers from the— Our first event, it was snowing. I don't know if you remember this. So a few years back, 2017, I think is when we started doing it.

Snowing bad.

It was snowing crazy. Like London was on lockdown and we're like, oh my God, we're going to have to cancel this event. And we had crazy amounts of people sign up and we were like, you know what? We've committed to it. We've ordered pizza, we've ordered beer. We're just going to have to go for it. And you know, if there's not a great turnout, we'll just blame it on the weather. First event, there's like 90-something engineers and we're like, oh my—

Why do you think that was? Why do you think that was successful straight away?

Having really good topics.

Okay.

Having great speakers and, and just, just people wanting to see a startup do well. Like, generally, I think that a lot of the community that we've worked with, engineers, really like us because we're super personal— personable, sorry. We've met them at conferences overseas and they value that we're trying to help their technology grow. And without Without our input in this market, I don't know if the technology would be where it is right now because, you know, we've been able to make it quite public by blogging and social media. We've helped, to date, we've helped 600 software engineers find jobs in 3 and a half years.

That's like, that's something to be super proud of.

And that's with over 125 different tech companies in 18 countries globally. So you take away our input, the market probably wouldn't be where it is today. So, um, Yeah, just going for it, right? Being bold. Just what's the worst that's going to happen if you throw yourself out there?

But how— so fair to say anyone that thinking about an event or like just again, having another way to build relationships or whatever, that's generated revenue for you and your business?

Oh, 100%. Because we've won customers from it that we've done placements with. But we also meet engineers at these events, people that we're already working with and new people like, oh, hey, by the way, I'm looking for a job. Can you guys help? Of course we can.

And I think the trick here is, and I'm sure that you're smart, right? You're not— that first event, it wasn't saying to the guys like, right, how many business cards can you get out tonight? I want you to empty your pocket. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's not the game, right?

No, you have to be smart with this stuff. So we don't go there and like, hey, we're a recruitment company, we desperately want to get you a job. We go there and we're really relaxed. We're there to help them have a really nice evening, talk to each other, feel like they're not being sold to. And if you do that with people, they'll come to you when they need you. That's a key thing. That is a great question, is that you don't go there like shouting from the rooftops like, hey, we're a recruitment company, we really need your business, please work with us. You just go there and you be nice people.

Yeah. Okay, mate. So hit your million pound mark, right? And you moved to America in September 2018, 19.

Yeah, yeah, I've been here for 6 months now.

6 months, yeah.

So you can tell by my tan.

Let's talk a bit about that, mate. So look, all sounds great. As I'm sure you realize by now, this is a real honest place, right? And I think it's fair to say that if you were to look at the Ryan Adams profile and signify, look, clearly there's been loads of great things, right? Fucking hell, Ryan's doing really well. But like, what's been some of the biggest challenges for you since going over to America that probably you didn't expect or people probably don't tell people when trying to take their business to America or moving their life there?

Yeah. I'll answer that in a couple of ways. So the first thing is leaving my baby in London, right? You know, I built that, I built the business in London. I've got an amazing team and I truly miss them every day. And it sounds very random to say, but I don't just see—

No, I get that.

I don't just see my staff as employees, I see them as friends and we've been through a hell of a lot together. So I really, really miss the guys in London and I talk to them most days on video and emails and the time difference sucks a little bit, right? It's like 8 hours. So when these guys are finishing work, we're just starting work. So that's been really, really tough. And because we're a junior business made up of people that don't have recruitment experience, we don't have a massive leadership team in London. So without me being there, that has been a little bit of a challenge.

Yeah. So how have you, have you, how have you, like, how have you, have you got things in place now where, like, non-negotiable ways to communicate to the team, or like, have you got, do you know what I mean? Like, how do you communicate to the UK team?

Yeah, definitely. So, um, we've got, we're trying to build a leadership team. So at the moment we're hiring for seniors, principals, team leaders, managers, directors, just to build out our leadership team. Um, and we also now have a manager of the perm team and a manager of the contract team. And also we promoted a couple of people to like principals and seniors. So we're just working on building out the structure. We've got a really good back office team and we've also hired a full-time internal recruiter just to help us to—

Yeah, amazing.

We're also using external training providers to try and upskill our team and get them thinking.

So really, really investing in the people that you have in your four walls.

Definitely.

Yeah, yeah. And then how—

It's been a challenge.

And then how, just quickly, sorry, just so So I guess what I'm just trying to ask, maybe if you've learned through doing it and trying it, but like, as you said, 8 hours difference, they're finishing as you're starting. But how have you gone about communicating like what you need to that business? Like, do you get up every morning, first thing you do, email, jump on a video with the guy? Like, how have you communicated to the guys?

So I stay up late most days and I get up really early. So I love starting my day really early, so I get up at 5:30 every morning. I cycle— sounds really horrible, right? I cycle to work down the beach, hit the gym, and then I start work. I'm physically at my desk. I start work at 8 o'clock, which is 4 o'clock in the UK. So at least it gives me—

do you check in with them straight away?

Yeah.

Okay, fair. Okay, fair enough.

So we use a lot of platforms. Yeah, we use Microsoft Teams, which has been great for us. It's like a video platform. Everyone has it on their laptop. We use email, as I'm sure everyone does. Sometimes I'll like, you know, WhatsApp people.

Yeah. Okay.

You know, but I definitely am still involved, but I trust the team there. We've got a great team, highly motivated, that have been with me for a long time. But yeah, we just need to add some more experience to help us with like structure, strategy, processes. Yeah.

Especially when you're not there. So, okay. Next challenge then, mate. So definitely Yeah, leaving your baby, leaving the people there that you've formed great relationships with, communicating with the guys. What else has been a challenge for you?

Hiring in LA is tough.

Really?

I mean, we're right next to Malibu. Staffing agencies probably isn't the most sexy, glamorous thing when you're like next to Hollywood, right? Everyone's in films or is an actress and just finding people that want to do recruitment is really, really tough. So that's been a challenge. But what we're trying to do to get that right is find people again from a non-recruiting background, try and train them.

What, in the US?

Yeah, in the US. Move people from less desirable locations to LA because of the lifestyle. We're going to be moving a lot of our UK recruiters to LA as well to help us build the team out.

What's the visa situation? That'd be good for you to— what's been your experience of that? Because obviously a lot of people have assumptions or misconceptions, assumptions of what that's actually like. So how's that been?

Yeah, the assumptions are all wrong. Everyone's like, you're never going to get a visa, it's really tough. But again, I think if you back yourself and you put in the right documentation, then you're going to get approval because we are effectively adding to the US economy by us working here. We're helping to staff tech companies and help people get jobs. And we're also making a lot of money. So it's actually helping the US economy.

Yeah, I get that. But has there been any hiccups? So what are some of the things that you've touched on? Really? Not really. So why do you think that is? Just because of that, because of the value, because you've got a real good case of why they're coming to the country and what we can add.

Yeah. Our business case is strong, right? We've got loads of US companies that we're working with from Twitter to Capital One to— I mean, we work with some amazing brands. So I think that helps. We've been able to make a lot of value from the UK and everyone that works in our business is a true specialist. So I think that's what the US government look for. Like, can you find this person in the US? And the answer is no right now because no one does our market.

Ah, okay.

I mean, for me to find a Scala specialist recruiter in the US right now is near to impossible because we're the only guys doing it.

Yeah, fair. And so what is the actual reality of living there, mate? What is the actual LA lifestyle, mate? You've been London through and through. What is it actually like, mate?

I don't want to rub any salt in the wounds or anything like that, but it's everything that I could have hoped and dreamed for. I mean, I absolutely love it. Just the weather is amazing. It's like it's winter at the moment and it's like 20, 21.

Really?

It's sunny most days, blue skies.

Is it chilled though? Is it the people? Do people get shit done over there or what?

It's very relaxed. There's not as much hustle as there is in London.

But is that an advantage for you? Do you feel like that gives you guys a bit of a competitive advantage?

It's an advantage, but it could also be a weakness because if you come here and you allow yourself to not work as hard and become relaxed, then you can fall into a trap. Whereas the way that our business is set up is that, cool, like we're going to take advantage of the lifestyle, but we're going to still work like we're in the UK.

And that's exactly what we do.

So, for example, we're in a WeWork, we're the first in and we're the last out every single day. And I mean, we start work at 8 and we finish at 5. So we're not working crazy hours.

9-hour day, hour lunch.

Yeah, but, um, it's amazing. Like, truly, um, it's beautiful to wake up near the ocean. Um, my kids go to an amazing school there. There's some celebrities that take their kids there as well, so they're rubbing shoulders with, with some amazing people. We've met some great friends, all from the UK, who are traveling as well. So yeah, the guys are settled, business is good. I cannot complain. It's everything that I would have hoped for.

Yeah, no, that's amazing, man. I think clearly well deserved. You worked your absolute socks off, mate.

Um, so look, before hard work—

yeah, yeah, still— yeah, I don't know if you're ever going to be someone that's happy when— I don't know if you're ever going to be settled with whatever. I don't know what it is, what you've got on your goal sheet, mate. Not sure.

My wife says that all the time. She's like, you know, when's enough enough? And I'm like, never.

The thing is, like, there's no end game really, is there? Like, what— there shouldn't— there isn't in business. Like, you, you can say you want to get to this point that's it. But it's not. Like, it's infinite, right? It's always evolving.

I'll be honest with you. My ultimate goal in life is to be a provider. Like, I love the pressure and I thrive under pressure. So I love being able to provide for my family and for my friends. I also love being able to provide for my staff. So I know that sounds crazy. I think we all know about a situation recently where a big recruitment company went into administration. And for me, that scares me. And I take the responsibility of all of my staff on, plus their friends and family, because these guys need to be paid as well. And they need to be looked after. So I don't know when enough is enough, but we're just going to keep growing, keep scaling. My ultimate goal is to sell my business or merge with a bigger business in a quicker timeframe than Console for more money. That's my ultimate goal.

Really? Do they know that?

I don't really talk to them much.

So you want to do that? Is that, is that because, you know, what could have been for you, innit? You tapped out before.

Yeah, but being honest with you, the money I missed out on, like, hey, I earn that now per year anyway. It is what it is, right?

Yeah.

I'm generally the most happiest that I've ever been in my life. And I think that's really important to me. I love getting out of bed every day. I love what I do. I love the brand that I'm building. I absolutely love everyone that I work with. And I wouldn't do anything different. Like, cut me open. I'm a recruiter at heart. And there's some people that do recruitment to get paid. I do recruitment because I absolutely love it. I genuinely love it. I couldn't think of doing anything different. If or when my business merges or sells or whatever, what will I do? Probably still recruitment.

I absolutely love it.

I couldn't imagine doing anything different. I would probably choose being a recruiter over being a footballer any day.

Yeah. So look, before I ask you the last couple of questions, mate, just on that, I'd love to just get your opinion on this. Like, how do you think we can change the perception of recruitment, mate? Because clearly you're someone that's passionate about it, absolutely loves you're building the business with everything that you shared today. Like, how do you think we can change the perception Just keep raising the bar.

Like, yeah, like every time I do something, I'm like, you know, someone could copy us and do something similar, but if it's going to make the recruitment industry a better place and make people value us more, then hey, so be it. You know, if every recruiter moves towards being on social media, great. If every recruitment company works a niche, great, because their clients and candidates are going to get a better service.

Yeah, it's like raising the standards in it.

Exactly. Um, you know, a lot of people complain about there's so many recruitment awards for excellence, but this is a great thing because it means that we're all trying to do better. Join APSKO and be a member of the professional body. Talk to other business owners and aspire to be like them and be better and just keep doing things in the right way, I would say. Fun. Like, I absolutely, you know, we work really hard, but we have a lot of fun. You know, we do a lot of company events. We share success, we collaborate, we have incentive trips, lunch clubs, end of year awards. This summer we celebrate our birthday every year. I think that's really important as well. So every time we make it to another year older, the whole company gets together, we celebrate what we've achieved, we'll go out and, you know, just have a great day.

So yeah, wicked, mate. Love that. So look, I've got a couple of questions on resilience and we'll finish this, mate. So, but before I ask you those, just to sort of wrap this all up, mate, knowing what you know now, Ryan Adams, like what advice do you wish you got given at the beginning of this journey, mate? I know you're only 4 years in, but knowing what you know now, hindsight's a great thing. What would you love? What would be the advice that you'd give yourself or advice that you wish you received?

It's a tough one, right? Because I thought you were going to ask something like that, you know, like maybe if you could go back in time, what would you do differently? But being honest with you, this sounds like a really kind of, I guess, like basic answer. But if I could go back in time, I wouldn't do anything differently. I think that everything happens for a reason and everything that's happened to me in my life so far, even all the mistakes I've made, and there's been a lot of them, has made me the person I am today and shaped me to be the person I am today. So, just because—

so you'd say to— you'd— the advice would be keep trusting yourself, trust the process.

That's the process. Yeah, you hear that a lot, right, in recruitment? Trust the process. I'd probably say that, yeah, it generally was harder than I expected it to be, but then that's because I went to knock the lights out, you know. If I just started a one-man band—

yeah, that's what you want, isn't it? Like, that's why. So that's not for everyone.

That for me, I love being around people. I couldn't think of anything worse than sitting at home.

Oh man, yeah, no way.

I just, I couldn't think of anything worse. I love talking to people. I could talk to a brick wall, right? So, um, so yeah, it was harder than I expected. Um, talk to people, that's, that's probably a big one, right? There's a lot of stuff in the, in the world right now.

Seek advice, help, get help.

Yeah, mental health, uh, well-being. And I'd probably just say talk to people. Like I've got an amazing support mechanism around me. Like I can talk to my wife about anything. My best friend, Daniel Lawson, works for me in my London office. He's my perm manager. I talk to him about everything. We've been through the worst times in our life together, but also the best times in our life together. And we've built this company together. Jack, who works in London office, he's been with me from day one as well. I share my— if I'm going through a bad time, work, personal life, I just tell them how it is. Right? They're my friends, they don't judge me, I don't judge them. So I'd probably just say, yeah, like, talk to people. You're not on your own, however bad it may be. Like, know that someone's there, they've got your back.

Yeah, love that, mate. So 3 questions on resilience, and then I'm gonna ask you the last question, mate. I've got an event coming up in a couple of weeks, which is why I've been asking a couple of people on, um, resilience, because the theme is cultivating resilience and going the distance in recruitment. So the first question, mate, What does resilience in recruitment mean to you?

It's a tough question because this is the, the reason why a lot of people don't last, right? Um, resilience to me is everything, man. You've got to be thick-skinned in this game, and if you're going to do it long term, you need to be able to handle the pressure and the stress and, and the bad times. And I know your podcast is called The Recruitment Rollercoaster, but it generally is, isn't it? Yeah, highs are the best highs. They're like, they're the ultimate feeling that you get. The lows are the worst lows. And you don't really get, you don't really get the in-between. You get like the mad highs and then the all-time lows. So I'd say that resilience is just about getting through the tough times and knowing that if you get your head down, you work hard, you're going to get through anything. Pain is temporary. You know, it doesn't last forever.

Nice.

Resilience is everything. I would like to say that I'm a very resilient character, right? And that day when Console sold, I'm not going to lie, I left the office and I was broken. Like, you know, everyone was emailing me. In fact, I'll be mad and say like it brought a tear to my eye. I was flipping absolutely fucked off because I worked there for nearly 7 years and I knew that my impact helped their business get there. And I didn't even get like, I didn't even get a pound or a penny or a thank you card. So that really, really upset me. And I was going to leave the office and go home and just be angry and go and have a beer. I just thought, actually, you know what, I'm gonna go back into my office, I'm gonna tell everyone what just happened, and I'm gonna tell them that it's really hurt me and I'm down about it, but I'm gonna get through this and I'm gonna get on the phone, I'm gonna make some shit happen. Great.

I love that, love that, mate.

Resilience is everything. If you don't have resilience, you're not going to be a good recruiter.

Yeah. So, um, how has the importance or need for resilience changed as the industry's evolved?

I think the industry is evolving a lot and And you know, there's a lot of easy things that you can do in recruitment now from being a recruitment coordinator to maybe not needing to put yourself under stress and do like BD and 360 recruitment. So I think it is changing. It's a moving environment. But I'd say depending on what companies you work for, you can go somewhere and have an easy life, but you're maybe not going to earn the best money and hit those goals. So I think in all honesty, like the best recruiters that I know, work in environments where they expect big things of you and they're going to put you under a little bit of pressure so you can get more out of it. So it's a tough one. It's a really tough one.

Okay, that's cool. Last one. What can people do themselves to instill resilience in their teams?

Lead from the front. Show people what good looks like. That's one thing that I would like to always say that, you know, if I tell someone to do something, it's normally because I would do it myself.

Yeah.

And if they don't know how to, I'll show them, I'll train, support, help them. This probably isn't the answer you're looking for, but I think that resilience probably comes from loads of different things. It's like how you were, how you probably were brought up, some of the stuff you do in your personal life, the kind of character that you are, right? So I look for people that are winners and that are doing a lot in their personal life, whether it's self-development, goals orientated, eating well, taking care of their personal life. If you're going out every night of the week and getting smashed, then I don't know if that's going to help you to be productive and show resilience at tough times. So just people that are just like serious characters that really want to be someone. So I think as a leader, you need to show people what good looks like. If someone isn't being led by someone that shows great resilience, how can you expect them to?

Yeah, nice, mate. So before I ask you the last question, what's Ryan Adams excited about, mate? What are you excited about? What do you want to shout about?

Just the general growth that we're going through. And like I said, half of me is super excited about it, but then the other half of me, being a bit of a cynical person, is like, you know, this could end at any time. You know, you can't take it for granted, especially with the news of other stuff that's happened in the market recently. So I'm not sure if we said this, but like last year We got to about 6 point, I think it ended up being 6.6 million turnover. So again, we grew by 100% year on year. We finally broken 30 headcount, which I think is a really big achievement for us. 2 offices, soon to be 3. This year the plan is to grow by 100% again. So we need to get to 12 million turnover.

You just like that because it's a big round number, mate, don't you?

It's going to be 12.

You just like 100%, mate.

We've done it for 3 years. Why can't we do it for 4, right? And we want to grow our headcount by 100%. 100% as well. So we're trying to get to 60 heads by the end of this year. So look, watch this space, a work in progress. We're doing loads of things right. There's some things that we've probably done wrong along the way. We've had some churn recently where we've got a really high bar and if people aren't up to our standards, then we start to part company with them and that's okay. But the team that we've got in place are super motivated, billing some great numbers. Our top biller last year, first full year working for my company, billed just under 600K.

Cheers.

Yeah, we're doing, we're doing amazing.

Love that, mate. Mate, honestly, congrats, mate. Worked your absolute socks off. So look, last question. If Ryan Adams could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd take on your advice, they'd implement it, what would you say to these people, mate? It'd be a phrase, sentence, word. What do you want to say to the people, mate?

Oh, it's a tough one. I could go on for days, right? But I'd probably say that just love recruitment for what it is, you know, like generally it's a great industry and a great career. I've met some amazing people from working in this industry and I wouldn't be the person I am today and I wouldn't have done half of the things that I've been able to do in my personal life without being in recruitment. So just, yeah, be proud. Yeah, be proud to be here. I generally am proud to be a recruiter. Recruiter, like 100%. You know, before, when someone would ask me in a bar, like, what do you do? I'm like, oh, recruiter, you know, like a traffic warden. Yeah, yeah. You feel like literally like the lowest of low at times. But now I generally chest pumped out, I love doing what I do. I'm proud of what we're doing. We're doing things differently. So generally, like, enjoy being a recruiter. If you don't love it, you could probably still do it, right? But I feel like you need to love what you do to be passionate I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah. If you're not passionate about what you do and you don't love it, you're gonna have limited success. You're gonna have limited success. You're not gonna enjoy getting out of the bed in the morning. That's probably gonna show in the way you interact with people internally and externally, on social media, on your calls.

It'll show up in all areas in your life, won't it?

For sure. Life is short, and I genuinely mean this, and we all go through crazy stressful times. We're all fighting battles that no one knows about, but If you use recruitment in the right way, it can really help you to be an amazing person. If you work in the right business, you're going to have a team of people around you, like supporting you and helping you through. And if you ever need something, whether it's money or someone to talk to, that person will be there for you. And I know I've got that in my company. So just enjoy recruitment for what it is, love it, keep raising the standards, keep doing great things. Let's just keep growing our industry. Like there's more recruitment companies starting than ever. And it's a super competitive market, but we don't need to fight against each other. We can all be friends. There's enough money and opportunity in this industry for us all to do well. And I genuinely mean that. In my early years, I used to hate recruiters. Anyone was a recruiter, I'm like, I hate you. I hate your suit, I hate your shoes. Whereas now I love recruiters. I see a recruiter, I'm like, man, I'm proud that you do recruiting.

I think that's what's changed. I think that's what's exciting to see.