Sam Holloway - Focusing on providing help rather than asking for jobs, and cycling 874 miles!

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm joined by Sam Holloway, who is the director of That Recruitment Company, who are a specialist tech recruitment business that focus on building teams and helping scale-ups in the Netherlands and Germany markets. Sam, thank you for joining me.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be on the podcast.

Yeah, good to have you on here. So for those that may or may not know, I did do an interview with Sam's boss a little while back, Chris Stringer. So obviously Sam will obviously dive into it, but you've obviously been on the ride with Chris. I'm excited to get your journey, your perspective, your story as you as the first hire for Chris. It's going to be— I mean, I'm excited to get into it from your point of view, which would be cool. First question, mate, where I always, always like to start on this podcast is, how did Sam enter the world of recruitment? Let's start there.

Oh, difficult question. I'll be honest, by complete accident. I never dreamt of being a recruiter, I'll be completely honest. But I, you know, as a boy, I wanted to be a police officer, an armed response officer, and as most people do, fell into the world of recruitment, you know, and it's been good. I've actually wrote a short blog on it as well if people do want to have a look at it, but it's been a whirlwind. So as a kind of former dispatch manager, car salesman, and I always say this to Chris, a bit of an all-round Del Boy, to tell you the truth. I decided that, you know, one day that recruitment was for me. I actually first heard the word recruitment, I didn't have a clue what it really entailed, through a friend. And a couple of conversations later, me on a basic of £21,000, him on a basic of a little bit more than that, smashing sales and earning £40K plus when he was the same age, kind of, you know—

Sold you the dream.

Yeah, he sold me the dream and he really did. And he said, look, I'll get you an interview. Never come through. So I ended up going with a rec to rec who actually got me a couple of interviews. I think I had 4 interviews the same day. Couple of companies in Birmingham. Chris was actually my last one, to tell you the truth, so right at the end of the day. And here we are, it was a couple of rounds later and I decided to join the Chris Stringer Army, I suppose.

So yeah, I guess just to frame out then for people listening in the context, so joined Chris, joined that recruitment company, and obviously been there now for 6 years, which is a really I'm sure you've sort of gathered this now looking at other people and you've been interviewing people for the business and stuff. Obviously, that's a real long time to be at one recruitment firm, right? And just to sort of frame up and add the context as well. So when you joined Chris, it was you and Chris, which we'll dive into. But, and then now you're, where are you as a business? There's like, what, 6 or 8 of you is there?

No, we're looking at 10. We actually hired recently, which is quite cool. We hired during COVID really, really good guy. And we're We're still growing, still looking to add heads. Obviously it comes with its difficulties and we've got certain people on furlough and stuff like that, but we're doing okay. We sat at around 10, and we've got an accountant as well.

Okay, cool. So why did you join Chris? So obviously out of those 4 businesses, Chris, obviously it was a business of just him, right? At that point, was it?

It was, to be honest with you, I have no idea. I'm joking. It was Chris, his dog, and an office that wasn't even— I mean, he hadn't even renovated the office at this point. So it was a big, big, big gamble for me. But I'm all about— I've always been one for— I like a little gamble. And this one, this just appealed to me a lot more. I interviewed for an HR recruitment company, and this just He just had something about it. And actually, when you meet Chris, and you have, he's a good guy. And actually, did I know back then that the gamble would pay off? Not at all. But am I glad I took the job?

I am.

And actually, it's put me in good stead for the future. And actually, I've really enjoyed the ride so far. It's had its troubles. It has. You know, we've experienced growing pains. We've experienced the heartache pains. But it's been a damn good ride. It really has.

So I guess for people, obviously I know you haven't experienced anything else, but I guess like as we're talking about it, because I think a lot of people that are either in recruitment now or considering it, obviously there is that sort of, should I join a bigger, big firm or should I join a small growing business? For me, we sort of spoken about this quite a bit, but I think for me, I joined a smaller growing business and one of the sort of big draw points for me was the person I joined, the owner of the business, I got sat next to that person, super experienced, and I really felt that I could learn really easily and from the best people around me. And I had direct access to these people. It was a smaller business. So I guess, like, I'm sure you've had these conversations now, but what's your sort of key positives that come up for you when you're talking to people about considering a recruitment job in a smaller grand business? Would you say what have been the key positives for you in the 6-year period?

Well, yeah, I mean, for me, it was— I looked at it as though, I mean, Chris has got the experience, right? He spent 10 years on the market before I even entered the world of recruitment. And I thought, okay, this is my opportunity to sit next to the man himself, sit next to the man that's already built a Dutch engineering division and actually learn. And actually, you know, I was accountable, I was responsible for a lot. I mean, back then, the only responsibility I had was kind of, whether I had enough, you know, whether I had a clean pair of boxes in the drawer and a pair of socks. And you know what, it was scary, but it was empowering. And I learned a lot from Chris because, you know, I was sat next to him. Chris, how do I do this? And actually watching and listening, that's where I picked it all up. And it just kind of went from there. And I found that I had a knack for it. And actually, till this day, I still enjoy the full process. I still enjoy the 360 process. And yeah, it was the idea that I could join somebody in a smaller company where I would get the training and, you know, kind of not micromanagement. It was just, I knew that I would get the support needed. I think Chris tries to install— we're not a big company, so we don't have the L&D department, but Chris is a big believer that he will, you know, we have external trainers in and we try and give everybody— Chris always says, I will give every person that joins this business all the tools. To make money and to advance your career. And actually we do, we do that and then some.

Awesome. Okay, so always interested to hear about people's first year in recruitment because it's normally really difficult. You and Chris, the dog, in an unrenovated office, obviously you haven't worked in recruitment before, Doug car sales, which obviously is a real different type of sell, right? I mean, I came from a insurance sales background, which was super transactional. If I didn't close that person on the phone, I won't hear nothing again. So for me, the sort of draw going into recruitment was this sort of consultative side and a longer sales process, learning how to do that and more consultative and obviously making more money, more bigger deal values, all those types of things. So I guess, but my first year was really difficult. Obviously all I heard about was the good things in recruitment, right, before I got into it. So I guess What did that first year look like for you, Sam? What went on in that first year?

It was difficult, but it was highly rewarding. I said to myself, if I was going to take this opportunity, that I was going to put everything into this opportunity. And I sensed it the moment I walked through that door. Don't get me wrong, times are changing a little bit now. I used to, although it was just me and Chris, I used to walk into the office, well, I'd like to say suited and booted, but it was more like jeans and a blazer and a shirt every single day. I'd turn up and I'd be ready to work. It was difficult the first 6 months. I say to everybody, the first 6 months should be the most difficult job you've ever had. But once you've rode that 6 months, it then becomes the best job. It's all about what you put in, right? What you put in, what you get out. And mine and Chris's focus was to grow the team to 3, and actually just to get as much money on the board, to tell you the truth. Back then, you know, an €8,000 deal was a big thing. Chris used to do one, I used to do one, and then—

How long did it take to do your first deal?

I did it in 20— I remember this and I'll never forget it. I did it in 29 days.

29 days?

29 days. I love that.

What did you build in your first year?

So I started in June, so I always look at it kind of what I did. I started in June and I do June to June because that was my first 6 months. So in that months, I did €47,000 and I blanked once, I believe.

Not bad, that, is it?

I did €47,000 in a market, I had 5 months of sales experience before.

Obviously, Chris would have helped you a lot, right? But I guess people may be now thinking about opening up new markets or doing it like, I guess, what did you focus on, Sam? Was it the candidate side that you really focused on or was you straight bringing in jobs? Like, what was the focus in those first 6 months that helped you achieve that, do you think?

Well, it has to be BD for me. And Chris said to me, actually, I think back then it was, you can't, we don't, I don't want you to work a candidate until you've got your first 5 jobs on.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. I don't want you to work, you know, I don't want you to work candidate. And I quickly got that on, I quickly started working processes. But I did something that Chris still, it was quite clever for me till this day. So Chris gave me a market and it was PHP. And actually, I thought it was tough and I couldn't, I just couldn't, I couldn't grasp it. So what I did was I kind of switched to front-end development and I was doing a few things in front-end development, keeping PHP running. And then I said to Chris, look, I'm going to go in with front-end development because I had a load of candidates and busy pipeline. I had a lot of jobs coming through. And since then, I mean, it was a good switch and I haven't looked back. I work in the JavaScript ecosystem now from then on, but still do a bit of PHP, but JavaScript was, that's my bread and butter. Really? Yeah.

So you ended up pivoting slightly and started focusing on something a bit different.

I seen a gap, I seen a gap in the market and I took it with both hands.

So how did you start bringing in jobs, mate? I know it sounds simple and basic, right? But I think one of the most common topics, questions that people ask me to speak to people like you about is business development. Look, you now have people around you in the office and have done, and that's typically can be this sort of part of the 360 role that people find most difficult. I definitely found that quite difficult early on. And I mean, as you said, like, was in car sales, 5 months sales experience, and then you're calling tech firms in Amsterdam and Netherlands or even in Germany at that point. Like, what, yeah, how did you bring these people on? What was the approach? Or was there any sort of plan?

There was a plan. Well, I had my own plan, but to be honest with you, it was about picking up the phone and I never, I never weld on a bad call. Because I always thought that, you know, tomorrow's a new day, and actually that bad call that you just had, they're not going to remember you tomorrow, so call them back tomorrow. I just, I always went in with a structured plan, an A4 piece of paper, and had my leads on it, and I had that to go. And I just relentlessly just kept going through it and kept going through it. And with that, I mean, it's very difficult to build up market knowledge straight away, but I started connecting the dots and I started really learning my market. And still today, I know my market inside out, back to front. I really do. Am I an engineer?

No. And when you say that, what do you mean? Are you like, you're saying, I know the firms that are growing the fastest, I know where the good opportunities are for front-end developers, or like, when you say you know your market inside out, what do you actually mean by that?

I'm quite spreadsheet-oriented, so I have my top, I have top 50 candidates, I track where they move, where they're going, sometimes what what posts they've interacted with. I'm always looking at companies and their growth and what they're doing and actually talking to people. A lot of people don't give some people the time of day, but I'm one of those that do and actually try and information retrieve, right? Try and get as much out of this call, whatever I can, and then build my market knowledge to go to the next candidate with, to hit the next client. You know, look, I'm working with these guys and I've done a good job here, and almost build use cases and kind of share that with them. And that's how I did it. But I learned my market inside and out. We sponsor a lot of events as well. So I tried to get involved that way by sponsoring front-end meetups and stuff like that. And just so people knew that I could give a little bit back, but also I was relevant. And I wasn't, you know, I know the difference between Java and JavaScript, which a lot of recruiters don't. Just knowing, just knowing, knowing the market inside out and back to front. It's not an easy thing to do, but I would say to anybody, you've got to do that if you're going to do well.

What went on in the next 6 months then, Sam? So, had a pretty good start considering never done that market before, you and Chris. What went on in the next 6 months? Did you get the third person in then or was it still you and Chris or?

Yes, we did. So, 2015, I believe we made our next hire in the— I can't remember, maybe January, February time. And, you know, we just kept building and building. We made some bad hires, but we've made some fantastic hires as well. And that's part of the team problems that you have going forward. But for me, I had one job, and that was to put as much on the board as possible. Chris dealt with, you know, the internal interviews and stuff like that and growing the team. So he was more on the ops side. I was the guy that, I'm just going to get you as much money on that board as possible. 2015 was a good year. I think I finished on, I think Chris just beat me that year. I finished on £147,000 and I think he got £150,000.

And that's on top of the sort of £50,000 you did in the 6 months? That's like—

Yeah, yeah. So that's January to January then. I think I did £147,000. Mate, that's a lot.

So yeah, pretty much. So yeah, in your first year, pretty much all— yeah, all in all, yeah, over £100,000, right? Brand new market. Like, what I mean, you clearly strike me as someone that's resilient or got the mindset of like, I'm going to make this happen. I'm going to sort of get up and go attitude, right? Where did that come from?

I have no idea. It wasn't from my parents, nothing. It really wasn't. But I believe that I've got to go into— I do the same with everything, right? I go in with both barrels. I go in, this is what I want to do and this is what I want to achieve. And actually, it was a great opportunity and I wanted to impressed as well. And Chris always said, look, if you play this right, you could be a cornerstone. And actually, I have become a cornerstone. And I just wanted to— I could see that I could do it. And I wanted to constantly improve every day, something different, try different things. I was never— I was one of the worst people Chris has ever took on on the phone, Hishem. I was awful. I've got a very, very strong accent. I couldn't piece sentences together. And I just had to pick it up and continually just develop myself. And actually, you know, culturally, the Netherlands is a different place and I had to learn. I really did have to learn, but it's worked out alright.

Okay. So I guess just to sort of wrap up this first year, mate, I guess you've now seen people in the business go through their first year and maybe help them through that, be involved with that, see things. I guess, sort of looking back now, you're 6 years into your recruitment career, right? Like, looking back now, hindsight, what, for those people that maybe in that first year found it difficult or are finding it challenging right now, what's your sort of go-to advice for people in that first year?

Resilience is one thing, but I have this thing I call it battle ready. I say that you've got to be, you've got to go in, you've got to go in fighting all times, you know, you're going to have bad calls, you're going to have good calls. Celebrate your small wins as well. I don't do that enough now, you know, because I think, okay, you know, I can do it.

What's a small win for you? Like, what do you make sure that the guys celebrate when they're early on? What's a small win?

It's not even, you know, what information did you get out of that person, or, you know, an interview is a small win for me. You know, just talking to the right person. You know, I'm a big believer, just the small wins, the little things that people forget to celebrate. It's not all about doing a deal or, you know, getting 6 interviews that week. Actually, celebrate I mean, for example, last week I had some conversations with companies I never thought I'd be able to get in with. All San Francisco-based companies, huge enterprises, and yet I'm there talking to the director of Google. And that, for me, that's not a small win, that's a bloody big win. You just got to celebrate the small wins. It's really important to.

Yeah, definitely celebrating, just celebrating good conversations or people getting back to you or getting through to people is definitely a great small win to celebrate some resilience. So when you say battle ready, are you— so are you talking about making sure that you're set up for the day, know what your intentions are, know what your goals are for the week, or I don't know what— what you know?

That's exactly what I mean. You've got to be ready, come in with the right mindset, coming with your day plan, coming in with whatever you need to. I'm a big believer, I don't often finish work and go, I've had a bad day. I always think, you know what, I've achieved what I wanted to do, um, and, you know, Go out with that objective. Go out to achieve something. Your day is going to change. There are many variables, but go out there and achieve what you want to do. And I think, as old school as it is, I still write the same on the same A4 piece of paper every single day, what I've got to do and what I think is a good day in my books. What my business needs, but what my desk needs and what I need to to do to make sure there's money on the books.

Yeah, I love that. So it may or may not have evolved, as you just said, but one of the most common subjects or topics that people want to know is how do people structure their days? So I guess just for context, we'll go into it, but over the 6 years, I know it's not all about this, but I think, because the reason why I want to sort of add this is because a lot of people, so a typical, so 2 things. First thing, a lot of people want to know about the structure of people's days.

Right?

But secondly, people want to know people's structure today who are billing over $200K, $300K, whatever the number is. But ultimately, a real big topic that people ask is, Hishem, I've built $180K, $150K, $160K for the last 2 years, 3 years, and I'm just really finding it hard to get to push through that glass ceiling. And a lot of the time people want to know, how does Sam, the $250K biller, or whatever it may be, structure his day? Is he doing anything differently? What's his process? What's his structure? Right? So I guess one, what's your structure? And I guess just emphasis that, what's been your best performing year, mate, over the last 6 years? And we'll break it down, but it will just help with context if you don't mind.

So my best performing year was 2019. It was last year and I built £367,000. And it was a fantastic year, a really good year for everybody in the business. It wasn't just me that did well, but that was my best year. And it comes down to don't get complacent. That just don't get— there was a time where I had to reflect a lot on 2018. I thought I did some good figures. I think I built about 270, and I thought, you know, I could have done more. So I stripped it back and I thought, well, how could I have done more? Well, what I had was a pool of good clients that I nurtured and I had good relationships. But what I stopped doing is the business development as much. So I still do the business— but it wasn't to the intensity that I would before. So what I did was I went into 2019 and I said, look, okay, I've got the clients, I know I can build XYZ, but how can I stretch that?

How can you add another 100K, 50K? Where can I get that from, right? To increase it, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And that was it. And it boils down to relationships. You've got to have some good relationships.

So for you, it came from new business rather than Am I maximising the relationships that I have? Was it more than— do you put that extra £100K on top down to the new business rather than—

Yes, I did. New business, but also quite rightly maximising the opportunity for the business. And what I wanted to do was maximise it for everybody. And I brought— whilst I built probably 367, something like that, I probably brought in 200 for everybody else. And that's what I really kind of focused myself on. I had targets for Chris as well in order to get to director, and that's what I really wanted to kind of do. And yeah, relationships, but continually spinning these plates, continually making sure that, yeah, you've got a good client and they want to take in 20 people through you, but actually—

Yeah, no, mate, that's awesome. A lot of people will be listening to that and go, how the fuck has he done that? Like, how has he got to that? Because a lot of people may not think that's possible, right? And I think because I've had this conversation with a lot of people where it's like I've built 280K, whatever the number is. But it's very easy to go, that's as much as I can do out of the relationships I have. But it's having the humility to reflect, look at, well, where are the opportunities? What have I become complacent with? So I'm keen to really dig more into that. But I guess you can talk about 2018, 2019 maybe, or whatever. But what did a typical Sam's day look like then? Let's break it down.

I'll dig, just before I go into that, I'll dig into that a little bit more. So what really helped me, and I'll be completely honest, we took on a guy that's kind of exclusively focused on candidate delivery. So what I was able to do was focus on the BD, whether it be lapsed or whether it be new. And actually, I knew that this guy was feeding me these candidates and it just made my job easier. Okay. I love candid at work, but what it enabled me to do is have— I went to market with my products. Okay, I've got these guys, do you want to see them? Kind of thing. And that's what really, really helped, to tell you the truth.

Did you not have that in 2018?

No. You was doing both? I think he just started. I think he just started.

Okay, so that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Oh yeah, so that's— that— okay, well, let's definitely dig into that because I think that's obviously an important factor, right? Um, but just quickly, structure— what did a typical Sam day look like?

Easy.

Like, I know, I know you may think, are people— do people actually care about this? But they do. So like, what— so what you get in the office, what's the first thing you're doing? Like, how did you break up your day?

Yeah, so I always have a day plan. So go in with a structured day plan. This is what I need to do. And for me, the Netherlands, I mean, they're an hour ahead. So you have to proactively plan out your day, right? When you're in the office at half past 7, it's half past 8 there. So you need to be hitting them job boards or whatever you've got. Respond to anything that's coming over the night, applications, whatever. But as soon as kind of 8 o'clock comes, which is 9 o'clock their time, you need to be hitting the BD. And I like to— I'm a big fan of going to market with, I say, a product.

With candidates, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I go to market with a candidate, and I don't stop until I've got that candidate 3, 4 interviews. I'm a big believer. I always say to them, how many interviews do you want? If they tell me 5, I'll get them 5. If they want 3, we'll get them 3. And I don't stop till I've done that. But the structure is simple.

Busy.

Get on the— use your phone. We're too— there's a lot of technology out there now. You've got your video technology and stuff. And like that. Now, there is a time and a place and it works really well, but fundamentally, the bare basics will always work. And it's important that we start with the phone.

So you're getting in, looking at the job boards, looking at stuff that's come in, and then what you're doing, what, BD from what, 8, 9 till 12? What are we doing?

Yeah, I'm talking from 8 o'clock till about 11 o'clock, because 11 o'clock up there is their lunchtime. And then that's where I'll do my admin, schedule my interviews, put some job orders on, put the I hate admin, so I'm pretty poor at it, but that's where I try and get my admin on and get, you know, anything that's relevant in the day.

And then what? And then after admin, lunch, what we doing? Candidates?

BD. BD?

Really?

Yeah, BD. It's slightly different now, but I'm talking what a normal day would typically look like. But yeah, again for a couple of hours.

Well, just quickly, what What does a sound preparation look like? Because like for me, when I always think back, even now with my own business, right? When I have, when I block out a time to do the BD session and that's all I'm doing. Like when I've always maximized that time when I've like prepared, like who I'm going to call, like what I'm going to do, blah, blah, blah. So I guess it'd be interesting to talk about that for a sec. Like what does a sound prep look like? Because like you're doing that for a long period. So you must, you can't just sort of be willy-nilly, just like, right, I'm going to call this person, I'm going to call that. So I guess when you're going into that time, what have you prepared? Have you got a list of people that you want to speak to? Have you got, I don't know, a search on the go on LinkedIn and the hiring managers that you're reaching out to? Like, what did you make sure you got prepared for that BD session and that time?

Yes. So no day ever looks the same. I'm really religious with my calendar. So I always plan callbacks. If I'd had a positive call or just a good conversation, give me a call back tomorrow, I'm in a meeting or blah, blah, blah. Whilst I would battle then, actually sometimes it's a case of, you know what, I'll give him a call back tomorrow and see if I can catch him at a better time.

Do you book those in? Because that's come up a few times. So like, if you call me and I go, look, Sam, it's not busy time, blah, blah, blah, it's not a good time, call me back tomorrow. Are you saying, okay, Sam, what time?

Yeah, yeah, I'd be like, yeah, okay, what time works for you? Towards the end of the day. And I'd make sure I adhere to that call every single time. Because actually punctuality is one thing. And actually, do you know what? There's multiple touchpoints, you know. Okay, he was busy yesterday, probably doesn't even remember you. I'm the guy that called yesterday. And just keep feeding, you know, you've got to keep feeding. It has to be multiple touchpoints because, you know, the thing is, you don't know what people are doing. People are in meetings, people are busy, people are on lunch, and, you know, you've got to deal with that. And I'm religious, I'm my calendar. I put everything in my calendar. Follow this up, talk about this, just pointers for me to go at.

Really? And then, and then, yeah, and then, and then do you go to the, to that time with like target lists and all that then? Do you plan all that out?

Yeah, plan everything out. I always, I used to plan myself a certain, uh, we used to do mailouts, uh, to, to clients. Now it's a little bit more, um, there's a lot more, they don't really work as they used to 4 or 5 years ago. Um, now it's, it's, it's fairly kind of targeted approach. We're doing a lot of marketing campaigns. And really, for me, it's going with the relevant knowledge. And the beauty I have at the minute is because I've worked with a lot of people in the Netherlands, I have the content to go, look, I'm working with you, I'm working with you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That massively helps.

You get talked about, and referrals for me are where a lot of our business comes from at the moment.

Yeah, fair enough, mate. So what would be good, like, it'd be great if you could just share and talk about your sort of experience. I know you mentioned it earlier loosely, but sort of people might be listening who are in the process of building out a new desk or building out a new market. Might be in the UK, might not be. But I think, I mean, we had loads of conversation in this podcast, or I spoke to a lot of people who were really keen on opening up an American market or just international markets. Right. So I guess what's been your learnings through that? I think you said earlier, obviously the Amsterdam, Netherlands culture and markets was totally different. But what's been your learnings through that, mate, for people that might be early on in that? How was that? Was there real pushback on, "I'm a recruiter from the UK helping me in Netherlands scale up," or I don't know what?

Yeah, definitely. There was, I mean, English recruiters don't have the best rap as it is, and actually going into a foreign market market where, you know, the best thing I like about the Dutch is they are straight to the point and almost a bit kind of, ah, bloody hell, that one hurt. And you have to have a bit of fun with it, play with it, because, you know, you're going to get knocked back, you're going to get knocked back a lot. But fundamentally, you know, you keep going. And actually, I learned quite quickly that these guys are direct. And actually, do you know what, I need to be a little bit direct but I need to have fun with it. Have a joke on the phone, leave them something, leave them something to remember you by. Make sure you never— look, 2% of jobs are pulled on the first call, 2% I think it is. And actually, there's multiple touch points. I think if you're touching base 5, 6 times, that's where you increase your chances of pulling in a job. So have fun with it. They're not going to remember you. Have fun with it and follow up with the right Right stuff.

I think, I know, I know, obviously I know we said that we'd, um, sort of segue into this later on, but I think it's been one of the most, again, just common topics that people want to know about right now in terms of like, and I know this is something that obviously clearly you're passionate about and is one of your strongest skill sets in terms of new business with new clients, business development. People like, I've had so many questions on how people are approaching that now. So let's definitely talk about it, mate, because we're talking about different touch points, you're talking about 2% of jobs get pulled on the first call. Like, what does business development look like for you now? And sort of how have you had to maybe adjust, or like, how are you approaching it that maybe people could sort of benefit from? Because I think that's definitely a challenge right now for a lot of people, even more so.

Yes, it's simple. I've stayed busy. I've not let this define my day or my week. And actually, I've I've seen there's a lot of positives behind this. I mean, not just the fact that I'm at home with my son, but actually everybody's in the same situation. So everybody's mindful, everybody are going through their own, going through this in their own way. So I've used it as a time to kind of really build a solid foundation, a time to innovate, try different things. And most of all, really what people want is they want support. They don't want a hard sell. They want support and they want you to share relevant market knowledge. You know, oh, you know, your competitor, they're on board in this way they've just lost this amount of people. Recruiters are a fountain of knowledge, like it or not. We're talking to people all day, every day, and if you take that information on board, you can go to market and really share it with people. And to be honest, I'm busier now than I've ever been. I'm on the phone all day. My phone time is insane.

What, you found more people are more accessible?

100%. Anybody that tells you different is— 100%. Everybody sat at home in their sweatpants and you phone them and, you know, you catch them off guard a little bit, but I've had some of the best conversations.

And what are you talking to these people about, Sam? Because like, if you call me and I'm going, look, Sam, we're not hiring, like, we can't even think about that right now. What, like, because I think a lot of challenges, right, the sort of common challenges I'm hearing from recruiters right now is that, like, again, back to sort of celebrating wins or whatever, the sort of wins might have changed slightly because Sam, maybe 3, 6 months ago, might have made 20, had those call times and pulled X amount of jobs. But now you're putting in the same output but might not be getting the same wins as you're used to. Do you know what I mean? So I guess, what are you doing and what are your intentions in these calls to make sure that you're maximising that call time and those opportunities?

Well, look, I'm being a consultant rather than, you know, I'm being a consultant. It's a soft sell for me always. In fact, what I've stopped doing is going for the jobs, don't even speak I don't even speak about them. It's, look, you know, I've come across your company today, read a bit about you. Actually, I'm working with these guys. Share some relevant stuff. And then just ask, you know, how are you doing? You know, how are things, you know, how have the team adjusted to the new way of life? And find out a little bit about them. They want support. And what we've been doing is sharing, we've got a few white papers that we've created, a bit of marketing stuff, how we're combating COVID, how we're still helping people onboard. We also, what I did, which was quite nice, We had a health and mindfulness coach. Chris employed somebody to kind of have an hour with us all. And I took that content. It really helped me. And what I've done is share it. It sounds a bit kind of gimmicky. I know I don't really know what the word is, but it sounds a bit— what I went to market and said, look, I've got this if you want to share it with your team. And people were so receptive because it wasn't, oh, this guy's calling me for some jobs. It's actually this guy genuinely cares. He's sharing best practices and wants to know a little bit about us. And all these calls I put back in my diary, but actually it's really worked. It really works with people, and I've got some fantastic jobs from it. I really have.

So you haven't been leading with jobs. You've— yeah, it's been, how are you doing? What's going on? You're being a human, you're sharing sort of what you guys are doing, how you're adapting, and hopefully that gives value and helps other people. And helping that lead the conversation and And yeah, as you said, naturally that can lead to, oh, by the way, Sam, what do you guys do? And can you help me with this? Or da da da.

Yeah, soft sell always. They want you to, time is one thing, but they want you to help them. You know, not everybody's used to this tricky situation. We haven't mastered it by far. We've had our own problems during this. But, you know, if we can share content and really help these people out, even whether it's okay, so, you know, you've had to let a few of your team members go, I'll happily help them for free if you want, just showing that you're there to support and it's not selling always. That's how I found it works. It's not masterstroke, it's not, but that's what's worked for me. And staying busy, staying busy.

I think, yeah, I think whoever's listening, like, don't underestimate the amount of people that aren't trying to really put in the outputs right now like you are, Sam. I think a lot of— obviously I only work with recruiters and a lot of people have sort of shared the conversations they've had with me where they've called clients, they've called target clients, and they've replied going, Sam, you're the first recruiter that's called me during this, what's going on, you know what I mean? So I think if you're listening right now and you're like, yeah, that makes sense, but honestly, you may think everyone's approaching like Sam is, but they're not, you know what I mean? So like, really don't underestimate the importance of being busy. And even if that is, as you're saying, Sam, checking in, speaking to people, people will remember what what you do and the actions you take during this period? Do you know what I mean? Are they going to remember the recruiter, Sam, that called them, shared the mindfulness stuff, shared, tried to share value during this period? Are they going to want to speak to someone that calls them and says, hey, you know, we spoke back in March before this went on, how you doing? Do you know what I mean?

So you've got to create additional value. You've got to create additional value. And that's how we've— it's really worked for us. Chris is doing the same, Dom's doing the same. It's really, really worked wonders. And you know, there is a time and a place to sell a CV and to do that selling call, but help them out, you know, help them out.

People remember it, right? I think that's the— okay, mate, love that. So I guess what I'd be keen— I know we really sort of dived into business development there, but I know a lot of people get value out of that. I guess what I'd love to sort of just unpack a bit more, I know you mentioned about your billing journey and increase in performance. I guess, and this can tie into it, but why do you think Sam has become a cornerstone of this business? I think, look, a huge percentage of the recruitment industry is sub-10 staff, smaller growing businesses, but why do you think you're the person that really grabbed the opportunity with both hands, and what did you do to ensure you became that cornerstone in this business? And how, like, because I want people to know and hear about how you've done it because they they can learn from that and do it themselves and really grab those opportunities that they have in these, in recruitment businesses, right? So I guess, why, why, why, yeah, why did you, why have you become that cornerstone?

I wanted it, I wanted it more than anybody else and anybody that wanted to compete, I wanted to be better and I wanted to, and actually I wanted to really just to support Chris and there was a lot of things I wanted to learn and to learn those I needed to adapt and I needed to keep helping Chris so he had the time to give me. So that was my— that was how I wanted to kind of do things.

So like, did you always have the mindset of it, this is— I want to treat it like it's my own business?

Yes.

Yeah.

From day one, because I always wanted my own business. And Chris kind of gave me that opportunity to have that. I mean, running your own desk is one thing, but having an influence and the influence I've been able to have was fantastic. And I really, I don't think I'm a good manager, but I do think I'm a good role model. I like to, I basically bleed green, right? I do. I bleed the TRC colours.

Love that.

I just want, I wanted it and I wanted to role model. I wanted to show other people what, you know, a kid that had 5 months experience at Peugeot could do. And what they could do and what they could achieve as well. So I wanted to, and I still want to do.

Did you make this really clear to Chris as well? Like, did you communicate this and say, look, Chris, this is what I want, this is the opportunity I want, this is where I want to be, this is what I want to do? Did you over-communicate that?

Yeah, probably every month. When's my next promotion? When are you going to do that? I wanted it all and I wanted it quick. Quick. I wanted it quicker than everybody else. But at the same time, I wanted to support Chris and build a business, actually. And I think we've done that. We've not mastered it. There's still a lot to do, but we're in a good place. We're in a really good place.

Yeah, no, I love that, Sam. I think it's so important for everyone listening, if you're in a business right now and you've got the mentality like Sam has, you want to own part of the business you're in, like make it clear, really over-communicating and show that's what you want. And I think this is one of the great things about the industry. People will reward it. If you work for a good recruitment entrepreneur, then why would you not want someone like you in the business? Do you know what I mean? And why would they not want to encourage you to want that and give you the platform and the tools to do that? So I guess, obviously, we've spoken a lot about a lot of positives. Clearly a positive guy. What you mentioned there, that probably not the best manager. So what What have been the challenges for you, Sam, that you've learned from? What have been some of the biggest challenges for you in this journey?

What are my biggest challenges? I've learned, see, I come from, I was a dispatch manager for UPS and I had 28 drivers and I thought I could manage. But actually, when you get into the world of recruitment, everybody's, you know, everybody wants to be that, you know, big biller. Everybody has an attitude, we're salesmen, right? We have to. And I realized quite quickly that Chris can build a team around me, but I don't know whether I could build the team. And I think that's how we, you know, I go out and put the figures on the board, I go out and get the business and I pass it down. And then what I want is, you know, maybe a full service delivery team underneath me because I could bring in that much business. Can I manage? I don't think I've really, I suppose me and Chris manage together, but Chris picks up a lot more the upside than I do the other stuff, you know. So I learned quite quickly that I don't think that's my forte, but it's something that I have improved on and will continue to improve on.

I think a lot of people fall into that boat, mate. You're not alone in that, I guess. What are some of the things that you had to change about yourself? So I'm assuming, was it, Sam, that you wanted to be the best, you want to be the top of the pile, which sometimes caused a bit of friction internally when it's a— can be obviously it's a smaller brand business. Like, I don't know, what did you have to learn to be better at? Did you Did you always want to take the limelight from people? Like, what did you have to learn to get better at?

It wasn't the limelight for me. You got that naturally. But I think for me, I'm very, very, very competitive. I don't care if somebody's 200K ahead of me, you'll be sure that I'm going to be up there. I wanted to be up there, you know. And that was just the— there's been challenges that there have But for me, I'm naturally very competitive, and sometimes I have to rein that in. I really do, because my passion, you can see it, and actually sometimes it's a bit much because people— not everybody's the same, you know. Chris says that you can't have a room full of directors, you know, that's what he said. Everybody's different, people go about their life in a different way. Some people go home and slouch in front of the TV every day. I don't. I go home and I'll go to the gym or I do some something with my little boy, or I'm always doing something. I have to be always doing something. But yeah, it's— there's a few lessons to learn and rein myself in.

Yeah, I love that. So I guess what I'd be interested to get your thoughts on, like, look, obviously, because you're in a growing business, you get— obviously you can really see people around you. Like, what, from your perspective, what do you see in recruiters early on in their journey or as they go on that you think sort of sometimes prevents them from taking their billings or performance to the next level? What are the sort of common pitfalls that you've seen in people that are at the business or have sort of come and gone? What are the typical things that you've seen that you think prevented people taking their performance to the next level, do you think?

Work ethic. I don't think everybody has the same work ethic. I think this— I don't think recruitment can ever be a job. It's a lifestyle and you need to live and you need to breathe it and you need to take it home with you. And you need to do everything you can with it. You know, I think people get complacent. Some people, you know, you could have the best year, you know, new people have come in, did it, I've done £100,000. Not just, I've seen it at friends' businesses and stuff as well, but people get complacent. I've done that, I've achieved, but what else are you going to do? You've done your £100K, what about your £150K next year and your £200K next year? You got to keep active, keep learning. I said this to you earlier on, keep learning your market. It will change. My market changes every 6 months because of the new framework out, something else. Keep learning and keep innovating, trying different things. Always try different things because for me, it's not a one-size-fits-all.

No, that's really interesting, mate. So I guess to sort of, on that point then, like what in hindsight, what advice would you give yourself knowing what you know now early on in Sam's recruitment career, do you think? What would you say to Sam early on knowing what you know now?

What would I say to myself? Do exactly what you've done. But no, it's all about mindset, right? And I— did you—

sorry, sorry to butt in, mate. Mindset. That comes up a lot on this, right? In terms of what's the difference between a $200K biller to a $300K+ typically? Is it going to be that you spend 30 minutes more sending emails or something like that? Probably not. It is that mindset, work ethic, these types of things. So I guess let's just talk about that for a sec. Like, what's been your journey with mindset, mate? I know you said obviously earlier on, definitely didn't get it from your parents, and you're clearly someone that wants it, you're competitive, but but like, what— did you cultivate your mindset? Like, have you worked on yourself? What are some of the things that have helped you?

Definitely. For me, I have this thing, if I didn't get— if I don't get that one, then I'll get the next one. It just fires me up even more. And this— I don't mean to sound arrogant with this, and it's going to sound very arrogant, but I genuinely believe that I can outperform everyone. And that—

You believe in yourself. You fully back yourself.

Yeah, I need that. And not only that, I'm a big believer that, you know, whilst I work for that recruitment company, there's also a brand behind that recruitment company, and that's the individual consultant. And I wanted to build a brand within a brand. And it's quite evident that when you do that, business comes around. And, you know, word of mouth is very, very important. And giving candidates and clients alike the best possible service is something I've always prided myself on because You know, candidates— what I've learned in this market, candidates become clients. And treat everybody the same and do the best you can.

So very early on you recognized you've got— you gave yourself very high standards and always worked hard to work towards that, and never— always tried to not drop the bar.

100%, yeah. Had to. And I needed to make this work for me as well. You know, I was going through a time of my own where I I was 21 years of age, didn't know what I was going to do, and I wanted to make something work. And then when I found I had a knack for this, I went all in and I wanted to continue with it.

I love that, mate. As we sort of come to finish this, mate, just something that's come up for me, I think. So how old are you now? Sorry if you don't mind me asking. 27.

27, yeah.

So you've got a young family, obviously earned quite a bit of cash along the way, right? What's been, what, um, like, because look, I think recruitment, going into it, yeah, you obviously, you can buy all these nice things, go on nice holidays, Ibiza, all this stuff, right? But what, just out of interest, man, because I don't think enough people speak about it, what's been your— I think more people are speaking about now, but what's been your sort of journey in finances? Like, did you start investing in property or like, I don't know, what, what did you like, have you learned any learnings there? Because the way Sam spent his money early 24, 25, I don't know, might have been a bit different. But like, what's been your sort of journey in the sort of assets and things that you've built for yourself? Because—

Yeah, yeah, fine. I said to you earlier on that I'm a bit of a cowboy, and believe it or not, I'm not even joking, if somebody across the road said to me now, do you want to clean my car for £50? I'd do it. I don't care how much money you want. I've always been the same sort of person. You know, this is quite a challenging— I mean, I'm, you know, full-time director role within a young business. I've got 2, nearly 3-year-old son. I've got one on the way in 4 weeks. So it's a busy time. I've got a pregnant missus that always needs chocolate. And then I went and committed myself to an 874-mile cycle. It's, you know, keeping busy. But how did I spend my money? I guess I invested in a house early on. I think I bought my first house at 22. I got it for a decent price and we just moved into a new house now. And I'm not a spender, Hishem. I like to save money. I will save anywhere I can.

Yeah, I know. I think that's awesome. Because I think you always hear about people splashing the cash and all this. And I think, like, you know what I mean? A lot of people in your shoes could have just pissed it all up the wall. And that means that in situations like this now, young family, you might put yourself in a difficult situation, right? So I think it's great to talk about that at least. And I guess young family then, Sam, how's that been for you, mate? That's like, let's not take that lightly, do you know what I mean? Well, how's that journey been whilst being a recruiter and family life, personal life? How have you gone about juggling that? How's that been?

Ah, challenging. Yeah, I mean, it really has. I mean, Archie's, he's freed his mother but we decided to take this time to potty train. I won't go into any details. Challenging. And then Ella's about to pop, you know, we've got another one on the way, but it's been good, you know, it keeps you level-headed and actually gives you more— for me, it gives me— I want to give him everything I didn't get. And it doesn't just mean, you know, he'll have the latest trainers. That, you know, the stable family environment. If he needs something, he gets it. If he needs to go to extra classes at school, he gets it. And that's what I always wanted to provide.

Did you find yourself— have, just out of interest, did you find— because this is— I've read this and heard this quite a few times, but Sam's drive before you had Archie compared to when you had Archie, did it Did it level up? Did it increase? Was your drive even more? I don't know.

What, um, it, it, I guess it did increase a little bit. It didn't change too much, but it did increase because actually needed more money to put clothes on his back, to tell you the truth. Nobody tells you how expensive they are. They come with nappies and, and cups and all this stuff. And now he eats me out of house and home. Um, but no, it gave me more of a drive, I suppose. But to be honest, I've always been the same, and I just want to make sure that, like I said, that they have everything they need. And actually, you know, I support my partner and everything, and there's no issues, I think.

Yes, I love that, mate. No, honestly, that's awesome. So before we finish then, you mentioned it just there, why did you decide to raise money and cycle however many miles? Like, what the hell went on there, mate?

Well, I'm a bit batshit crazy, to be honest. And when I decided that I wanted to do this, you're gonna laugh. So I've always wanted to do— I've been saying actually, on the first, you know, New Year's Day every year, me and my partner, we set aside some targets of what we want for the year. And one of the things was I wanted to do some charity. And I come into this, it was a bit of a scary time, and I need something, I needed something else other than work, and I just needed something else to do. And I didn't know what it was. And I thought, I thought, what about a sponsored cycle? Now, at the time, I didn't even have an indoor bike, right? I didn't have that. The indoor bike come on a Saturday, I started my cycle on the Monday. So I thought, okay, what am I going to do? How far can I go? Originally, I thought, I don't know, I could go a few miles. Then I thought, no, nobody's going to sponsor me for that. I need to do something challenging. So that's where I went from John O'Groats to Land's End.

And I thought, I wanted to—

I will do this, you know, on the road, but I thought it's never become more apparent that the NHS need some support. And actually, I wanted to show my support that way, by cycling 3, 4 hours sometimes a day to get that done. And I finished it early. I've raised a shedload of money thanks to a lot of people. How much did you raise? I raised just under £1,900. I think £2,100.

How many miles did you cycle?

874.

And how long? Over what period?

19 days. 19 days. And it was crazy that I did it with my friends Greg and Matthew from other respective kind of recruitment companies. They did it with me as well because they're both raising money for different charities. So I joined on the last day for a 100-mile finale to kind of, yeah, to get it done. It was tough. My legs are still hurting.

Sam, I love that. That's awesome.

So look, I just wanted to give something back, Hishem, that's all.

Yeah, I think that's great. I think that's great. Honestly, good on you, mate. I think that's amazing. Final two questions. First one, what is Sam most excited about when we come out of COVID come away from coronavirus? What are you most excited to do? I don't know, what comes up for you? What are you most excited for when we start coming out of this?

Just go and sit in a beer garden and have a few beers. Do you know what? It's gonna be a new world, so I'm keen to see what's gonna happen. We're gonna— every single person that goes back is gonna go back to a very, very different very different business. You know, it's not going to be the same. So I'm keen to see how that plays out, not just for us but for everybody. I mean, luckily enough, you know, we've still got a lot of people working, but other companies have had to furlough quite a lot of people and they've all got to go back at the same time. So just be keen to see, you know, what happens. But fundamentally, I just hope everybody stays safe and that everybody's okay upon returning to work.

Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome. And look, final question. You can answer it with a phrase, a sentence, a word, whatever comes up for you, Sam. But if Sam could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen to your advice, they'd take it on, they'd implement it tomorrow, what would you say to the people?

Stay busy and go into every day with the right mindset. Love that.

Sam, it's been a pleasure, mate.

Thank you.