Sean McCleary - Put everything into building real relationships and you will win

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster Podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I am up north. I'm sat down with Sean McCleary, who is the MD of Insight Recruitment and also one of the founders of The Powerhive.

Hi, Hishem.

How are you?

I'm good, thank you, mate. How are you?

Yeah, really good. Thank you, um, for so much for doing this.

Oh, thanks for having me.

Um, what I like to call the northern version of WeWork.

Yeah.

Um, So basically, Sean, as I was saying, where I always, always, always like to start is how the hell did you get into recruitment? Let's hear that story.

Good question. Probably quite a different route to most people. So I did the whole education thing. And then while I was going through my education, I got into music. Fancied myself as a bit of a DJ at the time. So was DJing, promoting a club night. And I went to Ibiza for a season. I thought, yeah, before I get a proper job, I'll get that out of my system. So came back from Ibiza, kind of decided I'd need that proper job. I thought, right, well, what can I do in the short term to earn me—

Were you doing Bifa? I did 2 seasons of Magalhães.

Did you? Yeah.

Were you actually trying to DJ or was you like selling tickets?

Well, I went there with the viewer DJ and I got a gig. In like a bar, it was, you know, we're not talking playing Pásherós, basically, at this stage. And like you say, just trying to get through the days of being hungover and functioning, you know, ultimately trying to sell tickets or whatever on the side. But no, and then came back and was like, right, you know, I need to get back out there next summer. What can I do in the short term?

Yeah, that's how I felt like.

I'd never really heard of recruitment, to be honest with you, at that stage. What can earn me money quickly? What skills have I got? Ended up in recruitment and just got the bug from it there, really.

Yeah. So, and then just to set the scene then, like, how long have you been in recruitment?

I've been in recruitment 18 years this year. Fucking hell. So yeah.

That's a long time, innit?

Yeah, I'm one of the old guys in the office.

You don't look old, mate.

Thank you, mate. Thank you.

Okay, cool. So just a quick one, because I always like asking about this. So like before, just very quickly, like when— so you didn't know about recruitment, like how did you supply for a job? Or like, did you have a rec to— Yeah, okay.

I mean, I came in, as I said, my skills previously had been promoting club nights. Yeah. So it was a case of, right, well, what, what can you do? And I, you know, looking at all these sales jobs, so, you know, can you build relationships?

Did you supply online?

Yeah, I applied online, spoke to a rep to rec, and they were like, oh, well, look, have you thought about recruitment?

And I'll tell you the dream.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, you know, got into finding more about the job, and, and actually, once I got in the office and got the bug for it.

Yeah, exactly. So then And then also, so then what was the agency that you joined?

So Progressive. Yeah. So I started my career out Progressive, part of the S3 Group.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. And then how long, and then just so they understand as well. So then how long was you there for?

So I was there for 14 years.

Yeah.

Started out as a trainee. When I left, I was a partner running one of their brands.

Oh wow. Okay. And then after that, you then set up your own agency?

That's right. Yeah.

All right, cool. Perfect. So, wow. So I'm sure there's a lot to cover there in those 14 years then. So I guess firstly, so you started as a trainee.

Yeah.

Like, what was it? Were you straight away in the market that you're in now or not?

No. So I started April 2002, it was. So, oh wow. For those that are a little bit older, it was the Lehman Brothers crash. So literally the market had just gone tits up pretty much. I was doing telecoms and networking, which happened to be the biggest hit market. So got into, you know, an office where I'd seen people earning silly money, you know, success. And it was kind of a case of pretty much over—

was it literally overnight?

Yeah, I mean, there was a— yeah, there was the kind of— the crash happened and then off the back of that it was weeks. I mean, the office we were in went from 50 people to about 16 people over a 6-month period.

And you managed to keep your job?

I did, I did. Yeah, they obviously saw something in me.

Um, so then what did you get into after that?

So I— interestingly, I didn't— as I said, I didn't do a placement for my first 6 months, which I always try and tell people when I'm interviewing them, because I think in this day and age everyone be wanting that instant success. Um, so I did telecoms for 6 months. Um, as I said, the market, um, the office kind of dwindled, and then there was an opportunity to say, well, look, these telecoms at the moment, clearly there isn't a market there. What other opportunities is there across the office? And at the time it was software development.

Okay.

Um, and yeah, I think I flourished from there. The next kind of 12, you know, 12 months, I would have been in the business 18 months by that stage. I went from not doing a deal for 6 months to being one of the top billers in the business.

Really? Okay, let's very, let's very quickly unpack that a bit then. So literally So, firstly, just if you were to think back and also if you talk about this now, which I guess is, yeah, is a really important story to tell your new buyers and stuff now. Like, how do you get through that, if you get what I mean? Like, so 6 months, no deals. For me, I think it's like 3, 4 months.

Yeah.

What made you carry on cracking on and these things?

Right.

Because I'm sure even then, back then, was the expectations quite high? Like, Sean, like, why aren't you building? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think it was, you know, ultimately probably the support I had around me was really good. But I think also I was, kind of measuring the journey and I was measuring my success, my development and trying to measure the small wins.

Nice.

So it was a case of, right, okay, well, you know, from day one I've got these clients who didn't want to speak to me. My 7th or 8th call, actually, I'm having good conversations. I really like that. They know who I am. They're going to pick the phone up to me.

So what you did, you made a decision to focus on other things besides the money.

Yeah, exactly. You know, I think, I kind of realised very quickly that just because of the market, partly, that the success I'd set out at the start in terms of number of placements and things wasn't going to happen.

So rather than getting demotivated, I thought, you know what, what am I doing well? Yeah, improving these things.

How can I, how can I kind of really develop myself so I can look back over my first 6 months and say, you know, I likened it at the time, a lot, a lot of my friends went down the football route Oh really? You know, if you think about it, you start out as, say, an apprentice footballer, you know, you're cleaning people's— I'm not sure you are these days, but in those days you were cleaning people's boots for the first 6 months. You were, you know, you were looking at measuring your fitness, you were looking at kind of developing your technique, you know, you weren't thinking about getting into the first team.

Yeah, no, I think that's a really good way to put it.

To kind of think about is I kind of saw that first 6 months almost as my apprenticeship. To learn. And thankfully the business at the time supported me because I think I was showing a lot of the other kind of attributes and attitude. And, you know, they backed me on that.

No, that's really interesting. Okay. And then I guess, so then after that, you went from that being a sponge, learn as much as you can, these things, to then like, right, actually I'm in the market now that I can actually really hit hard and do well. So how the hell did you go, how did you become the top biller then? Was it because of you being in a better market?

Yeah, I think it was, look, ultimately there was a market change.

Yeah, of course.

And again, I think that, you know, I suppose advice to other people, you can't always necessarily change your market. But one of the things I'd realised I was doing wrong in the first 6 months in the telecoms market is I was going after every part of telecoms. Whereas it was a case of when I got to move market, it was like, well, what is the, the real niche within a niche that's going to allow someone to teach you to think that way. That just is a case of, look, you've got the whole of software development to go at, and I think it's a big old place. It's like, well, what, you know, what do people want to speak to me, have conversations about? And, you know, by trial and error, I suppose, in the first 6 months, I realized that there were certain areas of telecoms that people would want to have a conversation with me about, even if they didn't have a job. And I thought, well, what, what is that transferable element in software development? So I really honed down the part market that, that I thought was smart. Yeah. Um, but I think the other bit, and it was probably due to the experience of not really having many jobs to work in the first 6 months, was when I got an opportunity, um, with a client, I wanted to really overachieve and overdeliver because I thought that, you know what, this is, this is my opportunity now. So rather than, um, kind of just going doing an okay job and then thinking about moving on to the next job, which I see a lot of people doing currently. It's kind of, right, well, how am I really going to maximise the opportunity that I've got?

Yeah, that's really interesting.

I think I was probably a bit of a, I wouldn't say a lazy recruiter, but I wanted the shortcut to success. And I saw people across the office, you know, I broke down my targets for the year, which, you know, at the time were 250 grand billings in a year. And there was people across the office that were maybe dealing with 20 or 20 different clients to get to that particular point.

Yeah.

Whereas I broke it down and thought, well, do you know what, if I can get 6 clients that I can do, you know, 40 grand each at the time, that would have been, you know, 5 or 6 placements at my average placement fee, then that will get me to my end billing figure.

That's really interesting. So, so you're not actually quite like that because that's really— I think that I took a bit of time to do that where All of a sudden, what you're saying there is actually you're working out where you should spend your time. If you're spending time on X, if that's building this client relationship, if it's getting more jobs on, you know that it should get you closer to that outcome. You really broke it down. Because obviously being hit with, Sean, you've got to build 250K. All of a sudden you've gone, okay, well actually if I get 6, like it seems not, it seems a lot more achievable. Do you get what I mean? Did you just do that naturally? Or like, did you have someone that—

I think it was looking at the people around me, learning off the people that were successful. Successful.

Yeah.

But also learning off the people that, that didn't necessarily get success. And I think also thinking about my strengths, I think I'm naturally quite a relationship-focused person. So whereas I wouldn't say kind of like KPIs and ratios and that real kind of detail around that.

Yeah.

But what, what I was quite good at was measuring a relationship and saying, okay, 'Can I add value to this person? Can I get them to buy into me? Can I really get a tight bond that means they're going to come back to me?' So I thought that, do you know what, if I can do that and focus in a smaller area with smaller people, smaller number of businesses, but just maximise that opportunity. I think a bit of a wake-up call for me was I went on one of my first client meetings in software development, the first placement, I went on an after-placement meeting, and it was with a client, Sony it was, and basically I thought I'd done a great job. I was, you know, I'd made this, I placed a Java developer, got a good fee, you know, and I'd worked with this one manager, and I went to meet one of the recruitment managers there and realised that, you know, there was probably 99% of recruitment that I didn't even know about that was going on in Sony. You know, but I found out that I'd placed this one requirement that had been live within our team, within Sony, for however long.

So that got me thinking, hang on a minute, what else can Sean do for us? Yeah, you didn't even know. Yeah, that's really interesting.

Yeah.

Okay, man, I'll definitely come back to that because I actually did a, um, a podcast with a guy called James this week who basically said actually one of how he's basically— because he went from like early $100K billings to $200K to $300K Okay, and I'm pushing it on. Yeah, it kept going that way. And he, when he got into an environment where like there was really big billers in there, he said a lot of the time they got it out of like 2, 3 accounts.

Yeah.

So it's really interesting that you've just said that, is that you, you made this placement like, oh my God, there's so much more I can do this account. But obviously a typical recruiter might be, okay, I've made that placement, like where's the next client, where's the next job, you know what I mean? Exactly. Okay, that's cool. So very quickly then, and then how long did you stay in software development? Did you stay in that for a bit?

Oh yeah, probably my next 3 years really in various capacities. Um, probably year 3 in my recruitment career I got into kind of managing people. So it was, you know, this the standard route of, yeah, you know, you're a senior consultant now, can you start?

Is that something that you wanted or was it something you got sort of pushed into a bit?

You know, again, I, I thought that going back to maximizing the opportunity, it kind of came clear to me that Right, well, I'm, you know, software development is such a big, a big, a big, a big area that actually can I grow a team out? And probably the bit of the control freak in me was like, well, if I'm going to build a team out or if I'm going to be getting other people involved in my clients, I'd like to have some input in making sure that it's of a similar level or a similar standard to what I've been doing. Okay.

So, okay, 3 years and you managed. And then how long did you manage for?

So I was probably managing in like a team leader capacity. So mixing billing and managing. Yeah, for probably, in total, probably 5 or 6 years from when I started. And then, you know, you get to the stage where I think by that stage my team was 7 or 8.

Yeah.

And it was a case of, right, can I still do a good job billing? And I'm probably someone that, if I know that I can't do a really good job or win at it, then I probably don't want to do it, you know. So the natural competitive element in me was thinking, these people in my team are beating me, you know, I need to start now going down the management route. Yeah.

So then really double down on— okay, so just quick, a few key things in there then, and then we'll, um, move on to the next part of your career. So I think, would you agree that that sort of billing manager role is obviously extremely difficult?

Probably the most difficult.

That's what I mean. Obviously a lot of people say that. So I guess looking back now, and I'm sure you have billing managers in your business now, like what's the sort of go-to advice or sort of the learning and the big failures and the things that you had to correct that help you get more out of that billing manager role? Would that come to mind?

I think it's two things really. I think it's thinking about what you want to be famous for.

Yeah. Okay.

And ultimately, you know, making sure that that's replicated in your team. So that everyone's bought into that, to that vision.

Okay. So what do you mean by that is make sure that the people in your team are very much approaching how they want to, approaching the same that you do in terms of the market and all these things. Yeah.

You know, there needs to be, for me, like a golden thread that runs through your team. That's like, we're all going to be famous for this. It could be, I don't know, for me it was, it was relationships. So, you know, we want to have the best relationships and that could be measured in, I don't know, commitment. Different jobs or testimonials or whatever it might be.

But you had something that really caught to you, that was so important to you, that, no, that led to the success you had as a builder, blah, blah, blah, that all of these people had to buy in on, whether or not— yeah, that's really good.

And I think the business, you know, there's always an overarching business vision, but I think if you can create that mini vision within your team— because going back to my experience in the first 6 months when I didn't necessarily bill, you know, I was still on a journey to do something. And I think that, again, when you're bringing people in, in recruitment, getting them on that journey early, whatever that journey is, is important.

If I'm a billing manager right now and it's like, actually, fuck yeah, like my team right now, I'm just sort of measuring them how I'd measure myself, and like I'm just trying to make them me, or what, do you know what I mean? So like, what, how can you start instilling that if like you've already hired people, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, well, I think, I think it's getting them— so firstly is getting them bought into, yeah, into what the vision is that you want to achieve.

Yeah.

I think the second bit that I learned the hard way is that not everybody gets to that vision doing it the same way.

Nice.

So when I first started as a billing manager, I was trying to recruit mini-mes. Yeah, you know, he's kind of like, oh, this guy's, this guy's going to be like me, I can see a bit of him in it. Um, and, and ultimately, you know, again, any good team, and certainly as you start growing a business out, you need, you need a diversity of of thought within that team. Yeah. And that's another thing I learned, that, okay, if the objective is the same, people can get to that objective through different means.

I like that.

As long as everyone's bought into the end goal of the same objective.

Yeah. So basically, if you're listening right now, you're a billing manager, you want to make sure that everyone in your team is on the same page and sort of really stand for the same thing. That, yeah, I think that's really good advice. Okay, cool. And then, so then, um, so then basically Was there a particular point then, you were saying that like, all of a sudden your guys are actually probably making more money than you need to, right? But you were sort of, how was that like? How did you keep the billings? Was you just winning the accounts and was it like a split fee thing that you did?

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it was talked about having these ongoing relationships. I think, you know, look, one of the challenges for anyone building a recruitment business and one of the, the reasons I think people leave recruitment is I never wanted to be that person who didn't have business coming into me or, you know, didn't have jobs within a month or didn't actually have meaningful conversations with people. So I was always of the, you know, let's just build a relationship, let's make sure they're going to come back to us. Let's, even when they're not recruiting, how are we going to make sure that they know 'we're there if we need them.' Whereas—

So you kept making it happen.

Yeah. And I think whereas other people would, you know, 'right, this client isn't recruiting now, I'm going to go find the next one.' Yeah. And I think—

Have you always thought— that's, I think that's such a— I really like the way that you think about that. But like, did that happen quite naturally? Because like, do you know what I mean? The typical perception of recruiter is not that. It's a lot more transactional. It's a lot more, they're just in it for what they are. But what you're talking about there is, actually putting the client first. You're thinking with a long-term mindset, do you know what I mean? Like, did that— how did you come to that? Like, that's interesting.

Yeah, definitely, because I think I'm probably quite a bit more medium-term in terms of my thinking of where I want to get to. I mean, other than obviously getting into recruitment where I just saw it as a short-term, all right, this is going to be a job to start with to tide me over. Once I knew that recruitment was for me, I then thought, right, okay, well, you know, long term, how can I be a leader in the business? That was something that I thought about. Um, and, and for me, that was built around having almost kind of making yourself redundant with, but having a, you know, a clear strategy of, of business coming into you.

Yeah, I really like that. That's really interesting. Um, okay, so then when you said that you then like really doubled down on management What do you mean by that? As in, like, what, did you then get to, like, the director level?

Yeah, yeah. So probably over— so within 5, 6 years, I was running one of the best teams in, in the brand at that stage as, like, a team manager.

Okay. Um, as in, when you say best team, you mean best performance?

Yeah, yeah. Is in terms of yield and relationships. And, you know, um, one of the things I was always really proud of is, is the retention side of things, because, you know, you kind of hear that people leave managers not necessarily leave businesses. So that would be something that I'd always try and, try and make sure that people were on the journey with me. Um, and then from there I got the opportunity to manage a division. At the time it was the permanent side of the business in Manchester. No, I was just managing a team within permanent, and they said, right, well, look, do you want to run the whole of the permanent side of the business in Manchester? And then And, you know, I suppose one of the, the good things about my early time at Progressive and S3 was the growth of that business meant that ultimately there always was another opportunity if you were good. Yeah. So I then took over the management of the Manchester office, um, then over time took under different offices under my remit. I think 5 different offices under my remit at one stage.

So, okay, yeah, let's unpack that a bit then, and then we'll go into insight. So like, I think the first thing that's coming to my mind is there'll be a lot of people listening to this that obviously there's a lot of agencies that do— I think 80% of the recruitment in the UK employ under 10 people, right? But there'll be a lot of people that, um, obviously are in these big corporates, right?

Of course.

So I guess quickly, like, what's come to mind is how, how did you work? You said people, if you're good, like, you get these opportunities. Like, how did you climb that ladder if you were wanting to do that? You know what I mean? Was it just like you always had people talking well about you?

Yeah, I think, look, one of the, the big things I always tried to be was be authentic.

Okay.

Um, you know, I think that, um, you know, and I can only talk from experience of being in a bigger business, I think that, um, a lot of the people I saw who wanted to be managers would manage in ways that they'd seen other people manage, or they would get a message from the top down and just kind of deliver that message because they wanted to toe the company line. Now, I always told the company line, but I did it in a way to say, well, this is what the company message is, but this is what I think it means to us. I like that, you know. And I think, I think people bought into that. Um, I think, you know, I really got to know my people on a personal level.

Um, —had a lot of people championing you. Yeah, exactly.

And, you know, I think— I can't remember who it was now. I think it might be Andrew Siloto, one of the guys we now work with for the Power Hive. But he— I remember him saying to me early, early doors, and it was in a book, The 7 Habits of Highly Successful People, about investing in someone's emotional bank account. So the whole thinking was that, you know, if you invest enough into someone's emotional bank account in terms of when they're having a difficult time in their personal life, when they're a difficult time in their work life, maybe when they invest in, when they don't expect it, when there comes a hard time, I don't know, they've had a dropper or they're having a wobble in recruitment or you've got to deliver a message that might not be a nice message. They're more likely to respond to that because you've already kind of, you know, you can take out, to look at it from a scientific way, you can take that money out because you've already invested it. If you're not invested in someone and then you're looking to take that money out, you know, they're going to be overdrawn ultimately. You know, so that always works for me. That's really interesting.

Yeah, so you've obviously taken that mindset and obviously that paid dividends in a big business.

And treating them like a person, you know, I think one of the things, I know we'll come and talk about it later, but coming onto my agency, agency, you know, I was always a believer in just really getting to understand that person. What's their strengths? How can you play to those strengths? Rather than that, okay, let's just, you know, kind of blanket manage everyone in the same way.

Yeah, mate, that's— I absolutely love that. And then I guess before we go into you starting your own agency then, I mean, there must, there must be some obviously big learnings through that whole journey, do you know what I mean? Because it just seemed like the responsibility went up. Yeah, these things. So I guess —just quickly before we move on to Insight, like, what are the things that you had to deal with that you did not expect, or the things that you learned from going from, yeah, team manager, director, 5 offices, da da da, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things I kind of learned throughout my career is probably just make sure the fundamental parts of your business are there and consistent and are still invested in before you do something else. So, you know, one of the wake-up calls for me was I had one of the best performing businesses in Manchester for the brand at the time, and they were like, great, we'll give you the opportunity to go and help grow the Leeds office. And naturally, I think I was attracted by the, oh, this is a new, new sector new office, new people. And I, you know, although I didn't do it consciously, I think subconsciously I probably spent a bit more time and a bit more of my effort went into that part of it. And actually the business in Manchester started underperforming. And if you were to probably average the performance out over the two, I was probably doing worse overall. Oh wow. And I see again that in a lot of, you know, anyone from someone who's doing a market to be like, okay, well, can I do this market as well? Or, you know, someone who's growing a team, it's like, okay, well, you know, get good at, get good and consistently good at something and make sure that you—

Before we jump onto the next thing. Yeah. Good advice, man. I like that. So then have you always wanted to have your own business? Or like how did that come about?

Yeah, I mean, do you know what? I think, Interestingly enough, the backdrop to the whole music thing. So while I was at S3 for a long period of time, I was still DJing. I was still doing, you know. Manchester? Yeah, yeah. I was resident at Club Sankys, which is pretty famous for—

Oh really? Yeah, I've heard of that. Yeah, yeah. So I lived basically, when I was in Maga, I lived with like 3 Scousers. Obviously they spoke about Liverpool a lot, but one foot was a Scouser but he was from Warrington.

So it's got weird.

So he told me about Sankys and stuff. Yeah, yeah.

So I was a resident there for 6 years, kind of. Yeah, yeah, I was running my own night, um, you know, what was it called? Kind of, it's called Disco Electronica the night. Oh nice. Yeah, yeah. So, and I, um, you know, I played, I kind of upgraded the Ibiza experience and did end up playing at places like Pasha Space. Oh wow. I had my own record label, um, but it kind of came to the stage where I was DJing Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

Did you have a family? Did you like having—

I didn't have a family at that, I had a missus, um, but we're still very much living that kind of weekend, yeah, lifestyle, yeah, um, and again, I think that's probably something that again in hindsight I made a decision to say, right, well, as much as recruitment— sorry, as much as DJ is great, you know, is that sustainable long term? Exactly, you know, I think, and it's probably quite similar to footballers in the the fact of the only the top 5% of DJs are actually going to make a life-changing sum of money, whereas actually if you look at recruitment, if you're good, the 30% of people in recruitment I could say can, can make.

That must have been quite hard though, because I'm sure it was like a real passion. Yeah, not the recruitment wasn't, didn't become a passion, but that must have been quite hard. Yeah.

And then, you know what, the turning point was when I got more involved in people, because I found that when it was when it was my own kind of business, if you like, my own desk, it was okay. Well, you know what, if I don't quite hit target, or, you know, I could make it up. I could make sure that during the week I still did everything that I needed to do. I still could be successful and my billings wouldn't drop. But I suppose if, you know, if, if I wasn't on my A-game on a Monday and I was trying to build someone else's career and develop somebody else, just wasn't fair really because you're kind of letting someone down. So, okay, I think that, that was the bit for me was when I started to take the management side a bit more seriously, I thought, well, do you know what, I need to fully focus on that. And, you know, I think again going back to probably focusing on something, I then saw my kind of performance as a manager flourish.

Well, and so then making the sort of decision that actually this sort of DJing stuff, is that what I want to do long term? You're like, actually, what else could I do?

Yeah, exactly. So I dropped the DJing down. It was then, okay, you know, I'd still do the odd gig, but it'd be—

I've seen the decks upstairs.

Exactly. Yeah, I'm still hanging on to it as much as I can. I try— I think that the most they get now is let loose on the office stereo, you know. But ultimately, yeah, um, you know, so I'd still do more of a hobby, I suppose. Yeah. And just focused focused on my career, and that really saw me grow.

And then what that led to— actually, I could probably do this myself. Exactly.

And then it was more a case of, I think, um, you know, got the opportunity from, uh, I always was floated the opportunity from an S3 point of view to go internationally, but because of the commitments I had around my music, I always thought, no, that's not for me. Um, you know, you could probably tell by the accent, I'm a Manchester lad, born and bred. So I think, you know, staying in Manchester and growing something really exciting was always something that I had an itch for. And as my career progressed in S3, I kind of realized that, you know, their objective was to grow globally rather than necessarily grow something massively exciting in Manchester. So, so, and you know, there came a time where I thought— and also I found recruitment is evolving and now wanting to try a few different things.

And it's— Bit harder when you're in that sort of business.

Yeah, it's more difficult to do that in a big corporate kind of environment where they've got, you know, 2,000 staff to think about rather than, you know, one person in Manchester who wants to do things slightly differently.

I like that. And then did you start on your own or did you start with a business partner?

Yeah, so I started with a business partner, a guy called Adam Richardson. We kind of started out an IT brand together.

Did you meet at Esprit or was your mate?

No, no, it was interesting. He was actually a friend of my brother's and younger than me, gone and achieved success in his own right with his own businesses. He'd started out in recruitment and then gone and set up kind of call centers doing PPI, things like that, financial services, got some real success. And then it just timed well that I was leaving S3. He was— he'd kind of finished what he was doing and, you know, it was like, look, let's— he had an office in Stockport. I don't know if anyone— yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not that decent, unfortunately. You know, I think this, this, you know, you'd go out for lunch and there was an option of a Greggs or a pound, a pound butty shop. Oh wow. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we started it together and then grew it from there.

Okay, so very quickly, it just popped in my head, I wanted to ask this. So I've also had Andy Simpson on this podcast, right? Obviously he works at S3. So what, obviously, as I was saying to you before we went on, like, I was in my own little bubble outside of London, 8 people in office, right? I did not know this whole sort of S3 thing even existed. So very quickly, before I ask you some good stuff around that, What is this S3 thing? What, what, like, you know, I mean, what do you think now being out of it and speak to business owners, what made S3 so special and what made it, do you know what I mean?

Like, what, how would you describe it? Um, well, I think, look, similar to you, you don't probably didn't really appreciate, yeah, the kind of, um, the domination that S3 has in terms of probably people who've then gone and set their own businesses up as well until you're out of it and I think ultimately, you know, it's the people. I think one of the things that S3 had, and certainly when I started out, was you had some really ambitious, some really inspirational people. And because it was a really kind of fast-growing environment, the standards were really high, you know. I think so not everybody made it, but the people who did did made it, or then took what they learned from S3 and applied that outside of S3, had the best ground into—

it seems like obviously they built a sort of top-class culture, and, and then also actually the people that made up that culture were like, just, it was just a really high standard.

Yeah, I mean, I think around the sales side of things, for, for what was important at the time, which was Right, kind of in a lot of instances being— I think, you know, we were talking about this earlier, is competitive advantage is, is such a big thing in recruitment. I think where S3's competitive advantage was, they just developed salespeople who would, who would be, um, more driven than other sales— than, than the competition would be, would work harder than the competition, would maybe have higher standards in the competition. And at that time, it was all about, um, probably being— going over and above to, to deliver. I think obviously where, um, a kind of a business of that size has challenges as it grows and recruitment's become more about services, is ultimately it's then also making sure that every single one of those does it in the right way with the customer. And that's where Maybe I went on a slightly different path and wanted to do something that was a bit more boutique and a little bit more, you know, I kind of describe S3 as, in a good way, the McDonald's of recruitment. So it's kind of like, you know, you go anywhere in the world and you're going to get a good service from McDonald's. You're going to know what you're going to get in terms of product. It's going to be done in the right way. You might go to Amsterdam and you get a pint with you, with, you know, you get a beer, whereas in Manchester you don't get a beer. But they managed to really kind of build processes and systems and dominate it that way. Whereas I think as I've gone in to try and do something different, it's kind of looking at the other elements. If you're not going to have those numbers of people to be able to be different.

Yeah, I really like that. Very well put. Okay. So then just to frame up, so when did you start Insight? So I started Insight February 2016.

So just over 3, 3 and a half years ago. Okay, cool.

And then just very, just to frame up and then I'll ask you a few things. Like, so it was just you two, and then how quickly, and then like how quickly then is it?

So right now it's, did you say— 30 people. Yeah. So yeah. Ultimately, we, um, I think, look, I always had aspirations to kind of grow something, something exciting.

It was always going to be more than you and Adam. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, lifestyle business.

No, no, look, I think, um, you know, I came out of it with a clear, clear path of, right, I want to grow something. You know, going back to—

yeah, you've been growing these teams, you've been managing people.

And going back to my personal vision, I suppose, was again, I, I'm quite passionate about growing something exciting in Manchester. You know, from an S3 point of view, um, some of the stuff was London-centric. I was quite passionate to say, well, why can't we, why can't we have something really exciting in the North? Um, and whilst they were behind that to a certain extent, I wanted to do that. Yeah, so that was the first goal, is, you know, can I really grow? Can I be the best agency in the North?

And you thought, and you knew that, like, that was like, that's what he was thinking about, and he's just shooting at them in Stockport, buying the £1 butties. Exactly. Okay. So then you went from you two, then look, by the end of the year, what was, how many people was you at?

And then, so in the first year we got to, so it was quite interesting, I think, um, we, we did something slightly different. Okay. Um, when we, when we, we said, right, firstly we very much focused on the culture You know, we spent a lot of time on our values and our vision as a business. You know, I think a lot of people fall into that starting up my own business and it's like, right, where's my next deal coming from? You know, how can I get some money on the board? Whereas we thought, you know what, if we're going to build something—

Comes back to that golden thread, then let's make sure we understand both what that is.

What does everyone coming into the business, you know, know? And, you know, when we move from Stockport, for example. We moved specifically, moved into Ancoats because we wanted the northern quarter of Manchester represented, you know, what we were about, which is being a little less corporate, being a bit more up-and-coming, being a bit more creative, whereas a lot of the recruitment businesses naturally would be around Spinningfields, for example.

Okay, interesting.

So we, we've made a lot of careful decisions around what do we want our brand to represent, um, And then the other part of it was we said, right, well, let's do this a bit differently. Going back to being really focused on relationships, our goal was, right, if we can sign 100 clients up in a 12-month period, rather than measuring revenue, rather than measuring how many deals we've done, if we can sign these 100 clients up, knowing how I'd worked previously, I knew that we would make at least 2 placements per client. So rather than everything being, right, well, where's the next deal coming from? It was like, well, where are we? Where's the next client relationship coming from? Wow. How are we going to measure that? Quite early in that process, we won a couple of big clients and it was a case of, right, well, do we say to them, no, Mr. Client, I can only deliver to you in this one area because there's only 2, 3, 4 of us. Or do we back ourselves and grow a bit of a team? And we made the decision to back ourselves. I think we were 12 at the end of our first year. Yeah. Okay. Um, and, and then, you know, we've kind of doubled in size pretty much year on year since then.

Mate, that's— I love the way that you, you sort of thought about that. Okay. And then just quickly, because I want to ask you about, about that in particular in terms of winning clients, all these things. As I said, you're one of the common things that I'm sure you see now people struggle with, and also people ask me to ask people about, is business development. Yeah. So I guess just quickly to add the context, um, those 100 clients, were they all— were there people that you're aiming at that you were in your market previously at S3 and stuff? No, no, no. Was it like new market, or was it—

we, um, I suppose one of the, one of the kind of benefits in hindsight that I had was I'd not been directly recruiting for 8 years. So, so you didn't have any— yeah. Well, it's not even that. I couldn't even if I wanted to ring someone, you know. Unfortunately, I was generally at S3 only rolled out when something went wrong. So, so, you know, it was a— there's a client where we've had an issue or something's happened, and because the level I was at, it was okay, I'll go out and, you know, solve the problem situation. So I didn't necessarily have those personal relationships, um, so it forced me to think about, well, who do you want to make relationships with? Who should be your target market? How are you going to approach those people? And our strategy was, look, everyone else is going out there trying to get them, ask them for jobs. I think, what can we do to just speak to them about something else than other than you have— have you got any jobs? But have you— and then how can you still come across as credible and still come across as someone that they want to speak to. So very early we committed to doing events. Okay, yeah, tell me more. Yeah, so we did our first event, Insight Into, we called it, um, probably about 4 months in. Um, and, um, what was the thought process behind that?

Just like, just give, like, just do something different?

Yeah, it was firstly when we moved into Manchester. So we moved into Manchester about 4 months, and that would be 4 months in, and I couldn't believe that on my doorstep where we were in it, well, and we'll still, still are in Ancoats and Northern Quarter, there was a different tech meetup going on pretty much every night. Yeah, yeah. So, so it's kind of like, well, that's interesting, but they all had this, we don't really want recruiters there because we're all tech people and all the rest of it. And, and ultimately I think that's probably because of, there's a concern, are our recruiters just going to come and sell to us? Yeah, basically. Yeah. So I went to a lot of the events to start with and just got speaking to people and said, look, I'm not here to sell to you. I'm a recruiter, by the way, but I'm all about relationships. Yeah, exactly. But no, look, just tell me, tell me, like, why, why do you find it? You know, I was genuinely really interested to be like, what, what are you getting out of these events? Why do you come to them? Um, and a lot of it was knowledge, but kind of wanting to network with like-minded people. Some people just wanted to come for the beer and free pizza, you know, ultimately. But, but, um, and then we said, well, why don't we do something different? So we did Insight into Digital, and it was all around the challenges of attracting and retaining talent within the digital marketplace in Manchester. And then we, we went out to a lot of our target customers and just said, look, you might not know who we are, but this is what we're doing in Manchester.

You're not talking to them about jobs.

Yeah, they're smart. Yeah. And they—

had you run any events at S3?

No, we'd done exhibitions and, um, we'd sponsored things, but I think never actually— yeah, well, one of the challenges of these bigger businesses is I think everything's about return on investment.

Yeah, that was gonna be my next thing because I think one, mate, I love the fact how you approach it, approached it. Obviously when we were talking earlier about personal brand stuff. It was like the best content and things like that, what you're talking about. Event— an event is pretty much a content. You actually found out what these people want. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So that, that's obviously the smart thing for you, is actually you're not thinking typically a recruiter, okay, what's in it for me? Yeah. For this event. Yeah. But you're thinking, how can this be the best value for a tech person or person digital to attend? So you work that out, and then that was gonna be my next thing. Well, for anyone listening, like, okay, sure, well, how's that gonna make me more money? Yeah. Like How did that then affect the business and these things?

Yeah, well, I think if you think about it, you know, you start, you know, you're making however many sales calls, how many LinkedIn messages, emails to actually get a decision maker on the phone. I just took that back to say, well, you know, based on the feedback I'd had, people were open to having conversations about events or going to events. Obviously a lot of businesses in Manchester, because they are struggling to attract talent from a tech point of view, wanted a forum to be able to promote their businesses. So it's very simple as not allowing the gatekeeper to shut you down because, look, I'm not calling about recruitment, but I'm calling about an event that they should be a part of. And you'd get through, you know, kind of tip number one, you're actually getting through to someone, which I know a lot of people find challenging. Tip number 2, it's a case of, well, these people are prepared to meet, meet with you because, you know, going back to what you're saying, it's kind of, well, what's in it for them? Yeah, what's in it for them is building their own personal brand. Yeah.

Um, and building their business, promoting their business, these things.

So ultimately, going there, having a conversation, you're in there for 45 minutes, an hour, talking about the event, what they could speak about, and by the end of it, they're like, oh, by the way, we need— we've got a load of grooming that we need, you know. Yeah, okay, great. Well, we can help you.

Oh, can we? You know, so ROI has been— you're pulling jobs, point of difference, you're standing out, you're going to be making money from these things, right?

100%. So these— how actually—

good, actually good to get your point. Sorry to butt in. How, how have you got better at measuring the ROI?

How have you done that? So I think going back to the original plan was all around me, you know, signing up 100 clients. So that was our first, that was our first big, big objective. And as I said, bringing people into the business, it was all the case of, right, how can you contribute to this? And that was the vision. As we probably got 6 months into that vision, one of the learns was, okay, well, we're on track to hit these 100 clients, but are all of them the type of businesses that we want to be working with? Yeah.

So it's kind of then, can we make 2 placements out them. Exactly.

So it's then, then, you know, when you've got a bit of a narrative and you've got a bit of a story, it's okay refining that and to say, well, do you know what, we value our service. Do these people value our service? Is there a relationship there? Yeah. Are they the type of business, you know, if we want to be attracting the best tech people, for example, is telling them that we work with X company going to set us aside for the competition? Well, if not, then you know, why are we working? Yeah, yeah, they're a represent— you know, they're an extension of our brand ultimately. So that was the first part. We, we started to then measure, you know, I suppose 100 signed clients in retrospect is quite a crude measure. It's a big, a big picture measure. But then it was like, right, okay, well, how many of those have given us commitment jobs? How many of those would meet with us? So that'd be a kind of strike them off straight away if Yeah, if they'd agree to give you time, meet with you.

Yeah, then, then how are they going to make time to look at a fucking TV?

So I think, I think a lot of people, for me, it would be thinking about how you can measure the relationship. Even little things like, do they return your call? Yeah, do they, do they, you know, will they respond to your emails? Because I see a lot of people kidding themselves. I've got this job, I'm gonna—

yeah, that's what you are. I learned early on, isn't it, like you just work shit jobs or you work on things that you have no relationship in, isn't it? It's hard. Mate, I really like that. Okay. So a few things. So what I just wanted to jump in quickly, if you don't mind. No worries. So obviously the journey that you've been on, you've got, you've obviously now, you're obviously now employing people. You went for obviously in big teams managing people, like just quickly. And then I've got a few other things I want to ask you. What's been like, like big builders, right? Yep. What are the things that you're, if I'm sure you have some big billers in your business now. Yeah, yeah. You've seen the big billers, like what are the common things that you're seeing in these people?

I think it's evolved personally. Yeah, fair enough. I think that some of the big billers at S3, when I first started out, they were just, you know, you kind of really driven salespeople who would push situations, who would, you know, would be that kind of that person that you'd probably describe as having the gift of the gab. Yeah. Um, but they weren't always necessarily as process-driven. Okay. And I think they, they, they would, but they would get success. I think in this market, I think for me it's the people that are process-driven. I'm thinking it's the, the discipline. I think recruitment, it's, it's about I see the top billers personally, they've got a baseline standard that they never fall below. So they come in every day, they'll get the basics done, and they'll have good days where they'll, you know, they'll do more than the average and they'll end up being really successful. But on the days where they don't necessarily hit those heights, they're still doing the basics very well. Okay. I think Being an expert in your market is something that I can't stress highly enough.

And when you say that, are you saying like, 'cause I think when I speak to people, they're like, they're a bit worried about that because at the end of the day, if I'm recruiting into the tech market, I'm not going to be as knowledgeable as the tech person at the end of the phone. So when you're saying being an expert, are you saying make sure you're very, very well informed of the tech market, who's moving where, what businesses are doing, do you get what I mean? Obviously to have an understanding understanding of what that tech person does is important, but you're never going to be an expert what they do because that's what they do. Do you know what I mean? So would you—

I see people falling into the trap of, um, just going back to my experience, for example, the software development. It's okay, software development's such a broad area. Yeah, but what I want to do is I want to let everyone know that I'm an expert in software development. So if they need Java, if they need.NET, if they need this then I can supply them. Because what I'm concerned is if someone looks on my LinkedIn or someone looks at the jobs I'm advertising, if there's not something on there that says I do all of these areas, then they might not come to me. Okay. But I think now more and more people are coming and say, right, okay, it's all right that you do front-end development, but which framework do you work with? Yeah, it's getting that niche ultimately. So, so I, I think people fall into the trap of trying to keep it generic because they're worried that I don't want to rule anyone out, but actually that rules them out, if that makes sense.

Um, but so then, but then what you're saying is, yeah, really double down on your niche. But then like, it's like when you say expert, it's like, do you know what I mean? You're not going to have as much knowledge as these tech people. So you're saying just expert in your niche and you know it inside out?

Just, just knowing who are there. I mean, ultimately I'm not talking about being an expert in terms of knowing, you know, how to program, or— because I think sometimes people muddle that up.

I think that's why people are a bit like, well, fucking no, I'm not, I'm not as talented as these people, I'm not going to be as credible, whatever. But actually it's like, well, no, recruiters get paid because they're experts at knowing what's going on in the world, do you know what I mean? I think sometimes people model that up when you say, I mean, I need you to be an expert.

But for me, you know, if someone was an expert in C#, then ultimately they'd be going to do that I think for me it's expectations that, do you know who the top 50 candidates are that ultimately are kind of the leaders in that skill? If a candidate speaks to you, do you know 10, 12 hirers that are really within that particular area? So I think expert in knowing recruitment within that particular market.

I'm glad you cleared that. So you're saying process, disciplined, Even if they have a not so great day, they're doing the basics right. They have that really good sort of standard. Be really knowledgeable and informed of your market. Is there anything else there? Relationships. Relationships. Yeah. You're big on that.

You know, I think, yeah, as I said, going back to my point, I always break it down to my consultants. You know, if 200 grand is the mark that you want to bill in a year and your average fee is 10K, then why go and try and do that with 20 different businesses.

So you're reverse engineering that? Yeah.

So it's okay, well, can you find in your market— is there going to be— I don't know, you do Java developers in Manchester. Is there people that are going to take on 10 Java developers this year? Well, yeah. Okay, we'll identify those businesses and have a bit more of a medium-term strategy to winning that business than being very reactive and just going after a business that might have one —one person, because if you get 5 people and you do, you know, £40 grand each with each of those, then that's your £200 grand hit.

Yeah, I get it. It's good, like how you approached it. Yeah. Okay. So one thing I just want to ask you is, so right now, if I work at Insight and I'm sat down with you, Sean, and I'm— because I get this a lot, people, they're sort of at that maybe £150, £180K mark, maybe early £200Ks, and they do want to get to the next level. Yeah. Typically, I know you just said relationships and you break it down there, but typically what do you end up talking about with your consultants that are like, Sean, I just can't, I just can't get past that, that next, do you know what I mean? I can't break through that next thing. So what sort of things are you talking to me about typically? Okay.

Well, I'm probably looking at your kind of your client, your customer base. Yeah.

So straight away, what relationships do you have?

Yeah. What relationships do you have?

Can you do more with them? Yeah.

I mean, you know, being, efficient with your time. I think once you get to that 150, 180K biller, you probably feel like you're working all the hours that you can work, you know. But it's then, okay, well, you know, valuing, valuing your time. Are you risking every job that you work to say, right, well, is this actually going to turn into a convertible job? Do you know your ratios? And, and are you focusing on the right areas, you know? In this market, for me, particularly if you're doing permanent, everyone should be working in a market where they can get multiple interviews for their candidates. Yeah. You know, are you, are you recycling the stuff that you're doing? You've worked really hard to identify that one candidate. What are you doing to get them 6 or 7 to maximize that opportunity rather than just getting them one interview?

I remember getting that advice actually. It's such— that is such good advice because when you look back, it's like, actually 'Yeah, I've worked this job, I've got 2 really good people and I only sent them to 2 businesses. Fuck, what else could I do with that person?' 100%. Yeah.

Okay, just what are the, you know, what are the things that you're currently doing that you can tweak to get an extra 10, 20%? You know, I'm a big believer in marginal gains. We talk a lot about in my business. So rather than, you know, try and reinvent the wheel, yeah, um, what are the little bits that you can get to get an extra 10% 1% in each area. And if you're doing that across 10 different areas.

Yeah, I really like that. Yeah. Again, so it's like, okay, so you want to get to 250 and you're at 150. Don't let that sound daunting or whatever. Let's break that down. How many? Actually, it's only 5 extra clients that I'm doing 10K of each. Do you know what I mean? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. I like that. So one or two things about actually being a business owner, and then I think that'll lead quite nicely into the Powerhive and how that ended up, right? Yeah. So I guess surely it hasn't all been sunshine and rainbows, right? Do you know what I mean? So let's talk a bit about— because look, this, this whole thing is not like you've been— I feel like the way you're talking about, you've been really positive and all these things, which I absolutely love. But like, where has there been times where fucking nearly, nearly quit this business? I mean, when there's been some like really tough times that you got through, and looking back, I was like, wow, that's really made me— do you know what I mean? Yeah. What has been some real tough times for you?

The first year Although, you know, it sounds really romantic getting to 12 people, yeah, you know, um, all that side of it. I, I earned more in the first— sorry, I earned less in the first year than I probably had earned in the previous 5 years. Yeah, yeah. I've got, well, 2 kids that when I start— I've got 3, 3 children now. Yeah. So, so ultimately you're kind of working longer hours, um, for less money, really, in the first instance.

And how did you deal with that then? Because I'm sure, one, you had stresses and actual family and all these things, right? Mrs. Gone, Sean, you're gonna be a fucking millionaire, mate. What's going on? Exactly, exactly. How? Yeah, let's talk a bit about some of those struggles.

I think it's just being clear about what it, you know, why you're in it in the first place, what it is. And then when those kind of when those times where you are, you know, looking at your bank account and it's not as healthy as it used to be, you kind of— you, you're understanding where are you in the journey. Yeah, you know, I think, um, I think that would be something that, that I would really say. I think, um, you know, I always— people ask me what it's like running your own business, and I kind of say the highs are higher but the lows are so much lower. Yeah, that's ultimately it. I think Um, you know, you have— I think, um, it's harder to not take staff leaving you personally because I think when you're at a big business, you know, you can almost say, oh well, you know, they didn't really buy into the business. Or when you've put your heart and soul into a vision of a business, you know, and it's— and, you know, people are leaving that business, it's like, okay, How do you deal with that?

Is it just like, if you know, if you look in the mirror and go, you know what, I've actually done everything I can, like that makes you more comfortable with it?

I love my, my kind of personal philosophy has always been like to try and develop people as much as I can. You know, I've been fortunate enough over the 18 years of recruitment, you know, I've come into this with, as I said, you know, kind of selling tickets on the side in a beach club, just to be able to go out and have a night out, to, you know, having a lot of the, you know, the finer trappings that a recruitment career can bring you. Yeah. But I've never lost sight of the fact that I've developed so much as a person, and, you know, my life has improved so much because of the opportunities that people gave me during that time period. And I try and look at it that way. If I can, if I can bring someone in, develop them as a salesperson, develop, you know, a lot of these people who are coming into recruitment are 22, 23, 24, you know, they haven't got the life experience, they've come out of uni, you know. So it's a case of, I always took it personally that if I can leave them at a better place than when they started, then my job is done. And I think that thankfully a lot of those people would say, right, well, do you know what, the loyalty is built there because you've, you've developed me to X point. Um, that's class.

Where's that come from? Like, you can't have always felt like that. Have you always sort of— do you know what I mean? Like, where's— I just love the way you— like, you've obviously clearly got such a strong mindset.

Yeah, you know what, I think it— I've always been one for collaboration. I've always been one for, for, you know, I'm a believer that kind of like sharing and supporting each other he's going to come back for you. I was never one— in the early days of recruitment, it was all kind of like chest beating. Yeah, you know, I'm gonna, you know, kind of screw over the person opposite me because that's going to get me ahead. I, I was always more of a case of, you know what, if you, if you, um, if you treat people in the right way, then ultimately it's going to come back. That's classic.

People don't think that. People don't think that. Like, people still think you have to be bullish and like, do you know what I mean?

No, not at all. I think that puts, and again, I go out to a number of customers who they're really put off by that approach, I would say.

No, honestly, man, I absolutely love the way you put that. So one last question before we go into the Power Hive, which I think ties into what you're just talking about there, paying forward, which is, yeah. So what you were saying before we went on about that sort of, I said to you that a lot of agency owners I've spoke to, they sort of hit that maybe sort of glass ceiling of like, you said it was like 20 heads, was it? Like, so now you're at 30. Like you said that around that sort of 20 mark, like you find it really difficult to push on. And I have had a lot of those conversations. So I guess I was just thinking actually, if you could share your sort of insights and how you pushed on through that, is there anything worth talking about?

[FOREIGN LANGUAGE] I think the, you know, the early days of starting up your business, it's probably the same as just starting up a market is, is it's kind of, you're in that startup phase, so everything's pretty exciting. You're bringing people on that's okay, you know, we've got this startup. I think more and more, both from a tech point of view, the clients I go and meet, but also from an agency point of view, that kind of startup idea of, oh, we can come in, we can fail, we can do lots of, try lots of different things, works well, I think. We had a lot of people that were of a similar mindset when we were probably 8, 9, 10, 12 people. Um, and obviously, um, I think I, I as a leader probably got to, um, kind of impart the way I wanted to do things directly with a lot of people. When you get to 20 people and then pushing on past that, um, one of the things I found is that you can only, you know, that gets diluted down. There's only so much that people can, can, you know, you can't spend one-to-one time with every single person. You can't get everyone bought into that same vision necessarily. And it's about the systems and processes and, you know, how do you measure things.

And yeah, so I guess then you're through that process is like, okay, so I can't— obviously it's unrealistic to have a business full of people that all have complete same mindset, but what are the key things that they need to be fucking great at or hit the mark on?

I think a lot of the firstly characteristics for me really important when I recruit people. I think the two things I always look for are people that have got humility. Well, because I think that, you know, ultimately everyone's going to fail at some stage. Everyone's got to be able to take on advice. Everyone's got to be able to to kind of be bought into the shared vision ultimately. So humility is always important for me and the people that I look for. And I think the second thing would be have a growth mindset, because I think— I love this. Yeah, yeah, this is class.

Um, and how do you look for that in people? Like when they failed and they come back, where they speak about things?

Exactly. Well, when you're interviewing people, I think it's people who prepared to take on board feedback, prepared to take on board, you know, talking about, you know, maybe seeing their career as a learning, maybe seeing, okay, you know, I might not have— you know, I've taken people who haven't built a load of money somewhere else because the way they've talked about it was, well, look, I, you know, I could have improved in this area. This is what I didn't do well.

This is what— yeah, there wasn't pointing the finger.

You know, whereas I've had one person who's billed, I don't know, 50 grand in his first year or her first year. And then I've had another person who's come in and billed 100 grand and been like, oh, the company didn't support me. I didn't get LinkedIn recruiter or I didn't get this or I didn't get that. And on paper you're thinking, well, one's billed 100 grand, one's billed 50 grand, which one are you going to go for? I think if you look at the characteristics and think, well, actually that person's approaching it in the right way. Yeah, then you're going to be able to mold that person.

Comes down to accountability there, doesn't it? It's like if you're minding about fucking LinkedIn recruiting, you're not saying, well, actually, yeah, I'm not doing this, I'm not doing that. Yeah, mate, that's class. Yeah, I love that. So let's go into, um, as we sort of round this off, like, I think that when it sort of goes into nicely, like, you're someone that clearly, if you do, if you, if you do this for someone, like, you're happy, you feel like you've done your job, you're willing to share these things. So, like, how did the— so the Power Hive Yep. Just in a nutshell, for those people that don't know what it is, how would you describe it and what is it?

So the Power Hive is a community, I'd probably describe it, for owners and directors of recruitment businesses. I think the background to it is when I left S3, 3 and a bit years ago, the first thing that I did was go around and meet everybody that had worked at S3 or you know, that I knew in my network.

And who could you learn from? Yeah, exactly.

So it turned out to be 25 to 30 people. So there was, you know, people like Dan Dorr, who's one of the owners and founders of Amoria Bond, you know, through to, um, people who had smaller businesses, through, uh, you know, Keith, who's now one of the partners of the Powerhouse.

These people sort of mentor sort of thing?

Yeah, I just went to look, you know, again, um, I think Rather than— I suppose my natural style has always been to go with the attitude of, I know less than you, please tell me. Whereas I think some people would want to go and say, oh, you know, I'm great, everything's great, etc. It was a case of, look, I, I've known nothing about starting my own business up, you know. I'll be honest with you, I've got 2 kids, I've got a mortgage, you know. I back myself, don't get me wrong, but I'm, you know— humility, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. And People, in my experience, are much more likely to want to help. Going through that process, everyone was like, "Well, think about this. Go to these suppliers for that." Off the back of it, I said, "Well, look, why don't we all meet up for a lunch quarterly or whatever just to measure how we're getting on against each other, share this best practice, share these ideas?" We had a few informal lunches. It was a case of, do you know what, like, we want—

let's not keep this just between ourselves.

And one of the things was, look, how do we get some non-XS3 people in the room? Because, you know, ultimately we were all brought up to do things in a certain way, which, you know, ultimately was like, well, if we're going to actually know how to build the best business or what the best blueprint— yeah, exactly, because there's loads of other people that have done it for sure in different ways. So then we You know, we kind of— we got other people in that way, and before we knew it, we were 40, 50 people. Um, and it was a case of, right, well, we want to do this regularly, we want to build it into something. So then that was really how the Power Hive was formed. It's quite interesting. Um, it was very much northern-based to start with, so it was called the Northern Power Hive. And part of that was born out of, um, probably this kind of feeling I've got about Manchester being not necessarily recognised.

Yeah, I looked at— not given enough credit.

Yeah, I looked at a lot of the other recruitment networks and they're all very London-centric and they would kind of, yeah, we'll still come to Manchester but it'll be an add-on. Secondary. Yeah, to what we're doing. Whereas like, well, you know what, there's some really exciting businesses in Manchester, let's focus on that. You know, one of the ethos was Northern Soul, so we talked a lot about leave your ego at the door. Um, yeah, um, and, and, and, and we, for the first probably 12 months, we just focused in, in Manchester. We got to over 80 members in Manchester, um, and, and there was a real demand. People just saying, look, there's a, there's a need for this in London ultimately. And the feedback we had that, you know, you have got networks that are quite, say, social, wallet one element. You've got other networks that are maybe more learning focused, and we probably saw ourselves somewhere in between. That's— yeah, yeah, kind of had the best of both of those worlds. And, you know, we did our first couple of events in, in London, and I think we had 75 at the NED in the first one, and I was, I was kind of blown away by— yeah, it's mad, isn't it?

Just one idea. It's crazy. It is mad.

Yeah, yeah, it's mad.

And so, yeah, so what's your vision with it? Like, just quickly, like, where do you see it in the next—

I think For me, the vision is that ultimately that being part of that network is giving someone a competitive advantage that is going to allow them to be more successful. We're already seeing it with some of the ideas that are being shared, some of the relationships. We talk about the driver for that business is making human connections is what we can talk about it. Making human connections in the community, but also giving you the tools to go and make better connections with your customers. And I think for me, you know, I want to evolve it to the stage where I can go and see a customer, or someone in the Powerhive can go and see a customer and say, 'Yeah, I'm part of the Powerhive,' and automatically that puts them in the top 10% of, you know, okay, I want to work with you.

So yeah, you want to sort of equip these people with something that actually can help them grow their business and help them make more connections.

Going back to competitive advantage, really, just making sure that that actually gives them, you know, a head start, I suppose.

Mate, love it. That's classic. Wicked. Um, cool, mate. So one or two, um, last things. Firstly, I know you were just saying there, but what, um, as we, as we wrap up, mate, what, what are you super excited about in, in your world, mate? What, what's going on? What are you excited about?

Yeah, I think, look, I'm excited about Insight Recruitment ultimately. I think we're growing. I think we talked about it earlier. We've got halfway through a 5-year roadmap to try and get us to 100 people. I think for me, still very passionate about creating this hub for success in the North, but we're also looking internationally at the moment, which again is really really exciting for me, you know. Can the, can the mank lad, the mank scally, go over to New York or wherever and really replicate that? So that, that's really exciting. And then, and then obviously, you know, the Power Hive. And I think even just the learnings I've had personally from, you know, being in the room with some of the people that are there and some of the experiences they've got, I think has allowed me to not only benchmark my business and say, do you know what, we're actually doing quite well, but also kind of giving me the tools to really grow it. And also, look, giving me the last part of that is probably giving me the forum to give back a little bit, which is something that again, really exciting.

But yeah, we can make— mate, I absolutely love this. It's been class. So the last question that I always ask people is, Basically, if you could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen, they'd take on your advice, they'd implement it tomorrow. What, it could be a phrase, it could be a word, whatever. What springs to mind? What would you say to these people? So they'd be listening to you.

I think, you know, going back to the humility point is don't ever be afraid to ask or learn or, you know, even show that kind of humility and that, Authenticity when you're dealing with your customers. You know, if you, you know, I much, you know, admit if you'd make, made a mistake. If you don't know something, don't be afraid. Yeah, exactly. And just, just see yourself as constantly learning. I think the other part is, is really be patient and build something properly. If you're doing, you know, if you're just starting out in recruitment and you're building a market market, don't chase the deal because, you know, ultimately you've got to build the foundations to a successful business. If you're growing a business, again, don't chase the deal or the quick wins because, you know, if you are truly wanting to build a career in recruitment, look at, look at where you want to be in 5 years, 10 years, and have that in some of the decision-making processes that you make.

Just quickly, mate, before we finish, like, how, how do you instill that in people? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, honestly, I think I totally share the same perspective and opinion on these things. And it's obviously what I speak to you guys about, personal brand. You've got— it's the same thing because it goes in line with the recruitment desk, right? So like, how the fuck do you instill that in people when that is so— it's so difficult to see that when you're getting rejected every single day, when no one's coming back to you, do you know what I mean? How, how do you instill that in your employees?

You know, it's more difficult now, I found, because I think that One of the things with, uh, kind of society today is, is how quickly everything's achievable, you know. You know, like if I wanted to go out and, um, you know, buy something off a new outfit off ASOS or whatever, you know, I could probably order it in the morning and it'd be on the credit card. I might not have the money for it, it'd be with me at the night, you know. So I, I think the kind of that everything needs to be right here right now is is probably a bit more indicative of the way people view things today. But I think it, I think it's going back to, um, just really explaining to people and being clear with them on where you want to be in 5 years' time. You know, if you're— if, you know, you could be 5 years' time and you could be, say, on the same money that a doctor is on or that a lawyer is on. That's no joke. You know, if you're a, if you're a doctor or a lawyer, it's probably 10 years of study to get to that, to that actual stage. So it's okay, well, look, we could get you there in 5 years, but this is, these are the steps you're going to take. If you're, if you're a, you know, a trainee doctor, you're not going to sweat if after 3 months you're not performing surgery on someone. Whereas I think, I think that's the bit, the bit really is you've just got to, I think you've also got to manage Expectations from day one. I see, um, more and more people as they're trying to struggle to get talent into their own recruitment business fall into the trap of selling someone a dream. So it's, you know, I've got this great market, or I want to be all, all things to all people. Be clear on what you actually are and what success is, and then just, just be honest with people, and the right people come and join. If they don't join, then they weren't the right people in the first place. Yeah. Um, and I think as long as you've been clear from someone from day one and you've managed their expectations, then you can say to them, look, yeah, this is where we are on the journey.

Yeah. No, I really like that. I think again, it's like, if I think about, it's like, okay, yeah, the past week has been horrible and all these things, but yeah, let's think about the bigger picture here. What can it be in these things? So yeah, being actually taking the time to go, okay, well, where can I be? In 5 weeks, um, 5 years— not 5 weeks, 5 years. Like, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that hasn't made— haven't made the time to do that, because it's very easy to feel like, oh my God, I'm not getting anywhere. But actually, as you were saying very early on in your career, well, in 6 months I'm now getting people talk to me when they didn't before, do you know what I mean? So mate, class. Brilliant. Well, look, thank you so much for your time, mate. It's been a pleasure. Cheers.