Self-Doubt, Burnout & Billing $1.5M: Elizabeth’s First Year in Business

Lizzie, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

Really excited to dig into this. We've got another episode where we're going to talk about your first year as a recruitment entrepreneur. Yeah, you've just gone past that milestone, so congrats on that.

Thank you.

And there's plenty of lessons, there's plenty of things that we did well, there's plenty of things that we've learned from.

Yeah.

And that's what we're going to go to, uh, go into in this conversation. Obviously, normally you're based out of New York, so I managed to catch you in between the flights. You're here for your Sisters, you call it Bachelorette. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I managed to catch you in person, which is really cool, but let's give everyone a bit of context of your journey so far. Let me know if I get any of this wrong.

Yeah.

But you've been in recruitment, like, before you launch your own business, 15 years experience. The last 10 of that was spent mainly in sort of managerial leadership roles.

Correct.

Your previous role was within Uh, your market, life sciences. You was building a life science brand for, uh, a company that some people will know called LHI Group.

Yeah.

You scaled that from 3 to 30 heads over 2 years. Peak revenue of that was $6.5 million. I've got dollars here, we're going with dollars. Yeah, okay, cool. Um, uh, I think one of the things as well, peak was team achieved $40K per head per month at a peak. Uh, and you was involved in getting to a financial event which led to a 7-figure exit in March 2022, right? So these are the— some of the important aspects that happen before you start this entrepreneurial journey.

Yeah.

You then launched Kennedy Bond, uh, in partnership with RecruitHub.

Yeah.

April 1st, 2023—

2024.

2024, sorry. Your world and focus is pharma and biotech clients.

Yeah.

You spend a lot of your time in the senior and VP plus level roles. Mhm. In terms of areas that you focus on, I've just got US here, but you've done a lot in California, Massachusetts, tri-state, but you're based in New York.

Mhm.

And in terms of the, uh, things we've achieved this year, so let me not forget any of this wrong. Yeah, we'll get back, we'll start here. First quarter we ended on $30,000.

Yeah.

But you've ended this year on around $1.5 million.

Yeah.

Now what's important to say is you built a contract book to around $15K weekly GP. I don't know if that's changed since we last spoke.

Yeah.

So I think what's been— final bit to add— what's been the split then, that $1.5 million rough split on contract versus perm? Because you're doing both.

I'd say it's probably been about 900 perm, 600 contract.

And then the bit that's important to add to that as a final part is 90% of your work is retained.

Yeah.

So a lot of that perm stuff is retained searches.

Yeah.

I think you described it as quote unquote proper old-fashioned retained, 20% retained, 20% on the sign, and 40% of shortlist. You've got the, the classic breakdown there. And then it was just you in this business, uh, until this month you've got someone in the team. Yeah. And then we'll get on to it But one of the lessons was we did actually launch this business with someone else, and we're going to talk about that. Yes, as well. Yeah. Okay, so that's, that's everything. That's immediate context for everyone. So what we wanted to start with, I think a great place to start is, I think it's safe to say Q1 was different to how the last 9 months went.

Yeah.

So on reflection, there's a number of things, but when you thought about those 3 months, because I know when we prepared for this, it was very evident that you're big into development. You take, you keep leveling up. Very seriously, personally and professionally. Those first 3 months, what, what did, what do we feel like we didn't do so well that resulted in, really, in comparison, nowhere near the type of performance that you've been able to produce over the last 9 months? Where did we go wrong in those first 3 months?

I think it was not necessarily we went wrong, it was just it took a bit of time to figure things out. I'd say obviously I'd been off the tools for a long time, and when I say off the tools, I was doing business development, but it was more kind of fragmented business development. I wasn't kind of hammering the phones every single day. And when it came to the candidate piece, I mean, aside from closing a candidate and things like that and helping my team, I hadn't really done much candidate work at all for the last 10 years. So I think it was spending a lot of time figuring things out and how to kind of how to recruit it again and how to kind of, I guess, work out that life cycle, as it were. And so, there was a lot of iterating. It was kind of a, okay, what does good look like? How many candidates do I need to speak to? What's the process that I need to follow to ensure that I'm successful? And so, yeah, there was a lot of iterating and figuring things out in those first 3 months of what works and what doesn't work. And then, focusing down and really kind of driving into things, the things that do work. So I think there was a lot of that. And in the back of my, back of my mind, there was also kind of the fear of what I was doing and am I doing the right thing?

In terms of the business?

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. I mean, there's definitely that fear there. And so I think I've made, yeah, a few mistakes. I don't want to say mistakes.

Well, things that you learn from.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, okay, I won't be doing that moving forwards. This is what I do need to do. So, for example, I think that I probably wasn't focused and direct enough with my outreach when I was doing business development. It was probably a little bit too sporadic. And so, I was like, okay, I really need to niche down in these areas here. I need to get to know candidates better. So, again, I think I was a little bit too surface level, and I wasn't having enough in-depth conversations and really working the candidate. So, understanding their motivations, kind of what makes them tick, what sort of company they want to work in, why, and then matching that prospectively to clients, and then working with the candidate to then grade those clients, and then asking them if they know anyone in those clients, and then really, you know, proactively taking them to market and working them effectively. So, that's just an example. I think I was probably a little bit too surface level in those first 3 months, and I realised, okay, I need to, add value not only to my candidates but also to prospective clients, and this is how I'm going to do it.

So let's— what I'd love to just say, because I think this, this might help, if me and you would have a conversation in those, maybe just before launching the business or in the first couple of weeks, what, what would have been the, the core elements of your, like, business plan? Or like the things like, what did you have, a niche focus, or was you figuring— was that part of figuring it out? Do you know what I mean? What was the like initial plan? I know we— you have to iterate. Yeah, like that's what I continue to learn on my journey is like you can do a great planning plan for the year and by Q1 you're like, hang on a minute, yeah, yeah, maybe I sort of overegged what we could have done and you've got to figure it out. That's that, it's a continuous learning journey. But what, what would have I— what would you have told me is the focus, is the areas that you're really doubling down on? Just talk to us a bit about that because I think that would be interesting.

Yeah, so I think I did, in terms of my plan, I wanted to focus on a specific market. That didn't change and that hasn't changed. I have always worked in that market. So, I work in clinical development. And I think I was a little bit broader, so I was looking at both contract and perm.

From day one?

Yeah. And I was like, oh, I can do both at the same time. And you can. However, I think it's important to bed in first in one space before then kind of progressing to something else. And so again, I quickly realised in that first quarter, it was like, right, what am I doing, contract or perm to begin with? I was like, okay, I want to get cash in. So cash is king. And I realised that the best thing for me to focus on was perm business because they're big fees and that would be the best way to get us off the mark, as it were.

Have you always done, has your track record always been more on that senior end or has that been a bit of a journey? Because I think, again, that is an important part of this recipe. If you think of this year's performance, I think I've got written down here the average, yeah, average placement value, talking per, per mil, over $75,000. So have you always operated in that part of the market, or has that happened over time?

Good question. Yes, I have. And, and the reason I have always worked in this specific space is because my previous company It was a grad hiring model, and so a lot of what we had to do was you had a few senior people whose role was really to win business and then pass it to other more junior team members. In time, obviously, you're meant to be training them up and getting them fully self-sufficient, but really your role is to feed the team. And so, I picked a market that enabled me to, um, not only win big fees for certain team members, but also the area that I work in, they're responsible for a few functional areas in drug development. So basically, if I get in with one person, say the chief medical officer, then they're responsible for reg, for clinical operations, for clinical development, for a few different areas. And so, the reason I did that was more so just to create opportunity for other people in the team. So, it was kind of by default that I went for that space. And also because the fees are really big. And they're great people to speak with. I really love speaking with physicians that work in drug development. It's really exciting and a fast-moving space. But that was kind of the default reason why I worked in that area. And it's, yeah, it's really good fun. I like it.

Okay, nice. Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said around that top-down approach, right? Like you just said there, if you, it might, you can tell me what you think, but it might take for some people more time to build those inroads, open those doors with those types of people, right? But I think the long-term benefit, as you just said, is that they're people that have influence and buying power across multiple functions, because that will be the case in other industries as well. But there's a lot there around that top-down approach, because then, as you said, the opportunities that then you could potentially capitalize on are across the board, right? Just on this, because I'm sure I just think it'd be helpful for people, like, anything to share on anyone that's listening right now that has been in the industry for a little while, whatever the time is, and they're just struggling to open the doors, build inroads with more senior people in their industry. I think that's quite a common thing. I don't know if you've got anything to share there. I think that might be interesting. Yeah, may come second nature to you, you've sort of always done it for a good amount of time now, right? But anyone listening that is, yeah, sees an opportunity to start dealing with more C-suite, more exec level, but they're just struggling to sort of start that because they've always been working with not quite that level. Any advice that comes to mind? Because I'm sure you've helped people with this.

Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, firstly, just do it. Like, just don't overthink it. I think a lot of the time, um, people put themselves in a box where they say, well, because I've only done this for this amount of time, 'that means I'm limited to the levels that I can go up to.' But why not? I mean, I can't remember, I think it was Steve Jobs that reached out to David, is it Hewlett or Packard? I can't remember, when he was 12 years old asking about some sort of chips or I can't remember, some sort of sensor I think it was he was working on. And he just asked the question, then he was offered a job in their factory and then he got more information. You just ask. And, you know, he went straight to the CEO, and why wouldn't you? So, I would say, I think, be confident in yourself. Also, flattery goes a long way, and genuine flattery. So, I think if you're reaching out to someone senior, it's saying, look, I've seen you on LinkedIn, or I've seen you in conferences, and I really admire the work that you do and kind of what you stand for. I'd love 30 minutes of your time, if possible, just to discuss XYZ. And a lot of people are very happy to help you out, and I can't imagine many people would say no, you know? So, I think it's just asking the question, making sure you're mapping out the right people, making sure that you have clear objectives in place when you are reaching out, and that you're genuine in your approach, and then keeping at it. So, I think that's the one thing I will say is a lot of people give up too quickly and too soon. And they say, oh, I emailed them. I'm like, cool, did you follow up with a phone call? Did you maybe send them a message on LinkedIn? What else did you do? And I think that's probably a challenge is people give up too soon. So, you've got to be relentless, you've got to be consistent, you've got to be persistent and keep going after it, and things will come. And then in time, that's when the compounding kind of takes place, right? And people then refer others to you. So, you might have some initial conversations and And again, it could be a general conversation. So, a lot of the time, I'll reach out to people and say, "Hey, I've spotted you. Can we talk? I mean, we're in the same space. I'd love to understand a bit more about your background, experience, etc." And they're very happy to have an introductory conversation. I don't have to be selling them anything. So, again, that's another misconception. Oh, I've got to have a role. There's nothing worse, in my opinion, than someone selling a fake opportunity. I hate that because then you're building or trying to build a relationship on a lie, and I just think it's so disingenuous. And you don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. Just be yourself, be real, add value, demonstrate that you're an expert in your space, and people are willing to help and willing to work with you.

Yeah, so besides those bits there, I think what I'm hearing and what people need to think about there is a lot of it could just be limiting beliefs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then all the, all the other good stuff that you just said. Yeah, let's get on to the, the bit what you just said there, because I do— I think more on the senior market people that know that they have decision-making power, that can happen a lot, that fake job stuff, can't it? Yeah, because they think it's like, what, that— because that was going to be my thing, like what I heard on the first 3 months was what you really had to drill down on and do a good job of was really building that, that network on the candidate side and the talent side.

Yeah.

So that was what I was going to ask you. So you sort of brought it up there in terms of like, how did you approach those conversations? If my mindset— again, it might be limiting belief, but like, what have I got to speak to them about if I haven't got any jobs right now or any clients that I'm working with? You don't have to speak to them about fake jobs. That's why I think some people end up doing that, because it's like, what, what can I speak to Lizzie about who's a CMO? I want to make sure I sort of try and get them engaged or interested.

Sure.

So what is it that you felt like, why would these people give you time?

Really good question. That's kind of a challenging one to answer in a way. But when I think about it, I mean, I think I would position myself in a way where I'm articulating that I am an expert in my space. I've worked for X number of years in this space, and I'm going to continue working in this space. So, let's have a conversation. Let's get to know each other. And I'm always kind of very clear of, I might not have anything for you right now. I might not have any jobs. I might not have any candidates for you, whatever that might be. But it's like, hey, let's get to know each other. But 9 times out of 10, people will say yes. And then, you know, again, in my reach out, if it's not, say, over the phone, but over an email or a LinkedIn message, you know, I do articulate a little bit about my track record. So, I think that definitely helps.

Of course.

And then I'm like, look, here are some of the clients I've worked with, here are some of the things I've done well. And I think it's if you position yourself in a right way and you're speaking the right language, I think that's critical. Um, then someone's like, yeah, you know what, she, she knows what she's talking about, she, she talks a good game, I'll talk to her. What's the 30-minute conversation?

Okay, yeah, I think, yeah, if you've got to be like— not, not everyone, but the, the typical journey of you launching your own business may look a bit similar to yours. It might not be 15 years, it could be 5 years, 10 years, but normally I'm gonna end up launching a recruitment business where I might end up focusing on the main area. Might have some covenants, I might have some time, I can't go straight to my clients obviously. But most people are probably going to leverage the, um, the market they built, the networks they built at some point, right? So yeah, you'd be stupid not to do that. And then, yeah, I hear this all the time. So again, it's just like being honest and transparent. Yeah, in terms of, I don't have anything right now, but all I do is speak to people like you. Like you said, you can demonstrate your market expertise by using the right language. And you found that most people have probably thought, what's the worst that can happen, right? This person might be able to help me at some point.

Yeah.

So if I, if I say, yeah, Lizzie, like, happy to jump on, how do you approach those calls? Because I think that's important as well, because I think that's where then you can really leave a great impression, which can lead to great things in the future. So like, what, how do you, how did you approach those calls to make sure that they left that going, that's someone that I would like to work with or has demonstrated to me that they know their stuff. I don't know, how do you approach those calls? I think that'd be interesting to hear.

Yeah. So, it's really a discovery conversation I'm having with the candidate. And so, it's really screening someone in the traditional sense of the word where you're having a screening conversation. So, first off, I'll open and just articulate a bit about my background experience, the areas that I work in, locations, type of stature I work across. And then I go into the candidate introduction where they take me through their background, their experience, their motivations. I get them to share a little bit around their accomplishments as well and kind of the top 3 things that make them stand out as a candidate. And then beyond that, we have a conversation around the ideal opportunity. What does the ideal opportunity look like? Is it pharma? Is it biotech? Is it a fractional CMO position? Is it a permanent position? And so, we make sure that we kind of have a clear understanding of what the ideal looks like, and then what we'll do is we'll come up with a plan, and that won't necessarily be on the call, but what I'll do is I'll take them through how I like to work. So, if they are potentially looking for an opportunity, then what I will do is I'll partner with them and come up with a long list of clients in line with what they would be looking for and what would excite them. And that's usually, you know, 15 to 20 clients. And then I send that through to them and say, right, rank these clients 1, 2, 3. You know, 1 is fantastic, really well aligned. 2 is we're on the fence. 3, not interested. And I get them to share further information on any people that they know at those clients. And then I will share anyone that I know at those clients. And then we're proactively working together to then prospect that candidate. And it's not in the traditional sense of, oh, we just send a blinded resume or 6 bullet points or something like that. I will work with them based on our conversation and their resume to write up a detailed profile, really articulating their story. And it's usually a one-pager where I'm kind of sharing a bit about their background, experience, etc., just demonstrating that they're a real candidate, as well as kind of the 3 standout accomplishments and things that they've achieved. And then I'll proactively market them to those clients. And I think the thing that stands out is that, you know, we've both done research into those clients, who's who, making sure that we're targeting the right people. And look, it is a bit of a case of you're shooting and there's no target, you know, and so it is a bit speculative. So, it's obviously one of the things of many things that we do where there's, There's some things, i.e., Leeds, where it's way more targeted, but this definitely does create opportunity for us for sure. And I think we stand out because the way in which we present a candidate is very professional. We clearly know that person. They're clearly real, you know, and we can talk about them. And, you know, as I say, that does open up doors.

I really like that tip there around asking them intentionally, like, who they know.

Yeah.

So how do you use that information? Are you then very intentional with who you might introduce that person to?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, so we're intentional in who we're reaching out to. If they're not necessarily the right person to reach out to, of course we'll then name drop them when we are reaching out to the right person. So we're kind of always having— it is more intentional reach out for sure.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And then anything around— just curious, uh, would you be having conversations around, are you against just working with me on this? I don't know, do you know what I mean? I don't know if that would— I don't know if it would be quite natural for you to be like, I want you to work with me exclusively for 2 weeks. I don't know, you can tell me if that would be like quite not the right thing to say in, in that context with a candidate. Yeah, with the candidate. Yeah, because that sounds like a quite collaborative thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, I wouldn't do that. A lot of the time it's not necessary just because they're not necessarily proactively looking for a role and they're not desperately looking for a position. It's more of a case of, hey, let's position you in this way. So, I've never had to do that, but it could be something in other markets where you would have to do that, or if someone is actually looking for a position, then yeah, you want to get that commitment because if they're working with 5 other recruiters, then much like if we're working on a search and there's 5 other agencies working on a search, you know what, the probability of you filling that role or placing that candidate is so slim, I wouldn't work with someone who was like that. So yeah, depending on the scenario, you might want to propose.

Yeah, I only asked because you're saying that a lot of these people had conversations with you because it was started as an initial conversation and some of them will then lead to working this way. What would stop another person dropping them a similar message and doing something similar, is all.

Yeah, absolutely. I think people just don't do it. Yeah, you know, like, that's the thing, they just don't do it. So it's like, uh, um, they could do, and I would suggest they do because it works, um, but I think a lot of people are quite surface level in their approach and they're quite transactional in approach. And I think that's probably a key differentiator for us and the reason that we have been successful is that we are hopefully adding value to candidates and clients just due to the quality and depth of approach.

Yeah, I think the things that I take there is that it's a quite like joint effort. Yeah, that process that you just said. And I think also that, that tests the commitment as well as these, these people saying, you know what, actually I'm not actively looking, however, this is where I want to get to my career. So if there are organizations that you feel like can help me get there, yeah, then I would be happy to have a conversation.

Yeah.

And there's different steps in there, like I've, I've done this research, ranked these companies. These people could easily just be like, I'm too busy, I'm not doing that, right? So there's also some different elements there where you're going to see if they're actually committed to trying, right, to move things or actually have discussions with people, meet organizations, versus actually, you know what, it's probably not the right time, right?

Exactly.

So that is interesting. So I know you said that it's, it's always a lot of small many things versus one thing, right? But it sounds like in that first quarter, and it's probably something that you do consistently now, that's been a really solid channel for you in terms of working with your network in this way.

Yeah.

And then being really targeted and opening up conversations and opening up doors.

Yeah.

With people.

Yeah.

Is that fair?

Genuinely, it was the candidate conversation piece that was lacking.

Okay.

I was doing a lot of, um, adding hiring managers, adding candidates, and this is all really important stuff, and it was about kind of refining, getting the numbers right of, okay, how many do I need to be adding? But what I wasn't doing was having enough candidate conversations to then generate really great candidates for profiling, but also leads. Like, leads, leads, leads, they're so important. And I was—

Leads from who?

Candidates, candidate leads.

From the people that you're working with?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just, I, because I wasn't speaking with enough candidates, I wasn't able to get those leads. And then not only just leads, it was also referrals and other things that just come from those conversations. Information. Yeah, exactly. So much information. and I was, uh, I think I was more focused on clients and hiring managers and not necessarily using candidates to then create opportunities with clients.

Okay, fair. All right, that's good. Let's talk about— I want to get onto the, the, the client side because I think that is absolutely crucial. I know there's a lot to it, but in terms of if you're going to be successful as a recruitment entrepreneur, particularly in your first year, you have to be able to build your own pipeline. Yeah, that's so important. Uh, and I remember sitting down with Edmund, like, that, that's just something that they always stress test and really try and make sure they understand. Is this person capable? Have they got a track record of winning clients? They back themselves to do that.

Yeah.

Before we get into that, something that always comes up, and you, and you mentioned it, but I've got written down here: self-doubt.

Yeah.

It's awful. It was hard grappling with myself. Let's just talk about that for a sec because I think that is something that people have to really, let's be honest, continuously wrestle with.

Yes.

But I think where it can really show up is in that initial period.

Yeah.

Talk to us about your relationship with that because I think that might be interesting for people to hear because on the outside looking in, and maybe people that have met you might go, really? Like, look at the numbers that she's put on the board, how much she's performed. But you actually told me that is something that—

Yes.

You wrestle with or really had to wrestle with early on. So tell us about that.

Yeah, I'm an insane person. I do have a lot. Even this morning, I was getting ready to come here and I just worked out and I was like, you know, just chilling, getting ready. And I was just like, God, why the hell would anyone want to listen to what I have to say? Like, it's completely, like, genuinely, I'm like, this is so irrelevant. I'm not, you know, And even then I'm like, oh no, it's good. And then other times I'm very confident. There is no denying I'm a very confident person. But yeah, I absolutely still have that self-doubt. And even earlier this year, you know, in Q1, I was like, don't have enough clients, don't have enough clients, this isn't good enough. Like, where are my next jobs coming from? You know, what am I doing? And it's just a constant thing, but that drives me. So I think I've realised that having that self-doubt is actually a good thing. I think it's normal. Obviously, you can't let it consume you. I think a lot of people let it consume them, and then it stops them from doing anything. So, I think I use it to drive me and channel it in the right ways to ensure that I keep going and keep on moving. And I think there was an interesting thing that I heard recently that most companies die from indigestion than they do from anything else. And it's that they've got good ideas, good concepts, but they just stop and they stop moving forwards. So as I say, I use it as a driver. I think it's a good thing within reason, but a lot of people let it consume them. So I'd say like, you know, 20, 25% of the time I might have that self-doubt. The rest of the time I'm very confident in what I'm doing and what I'm achieving. All being said, I think I've got that mindset where enough is never enough. And I'm like, yeah, that was okay. You know, I did okay. And someone's like, oh, you, you know, you put out 500 grand in a month and as an individual, I'm like, yeah, yeah, that was good, I guess. But, you know, we go again. Like, that's just how I am as a person. So it's—

so you have good, good days and some bad days with it.

Yeah.

But where, like, normally when I do sit down with people, did some of that come from in that initial period of, like, like you said earlier, like, oh shit, I haven't been on the, the tools, I haven't done the, the candidate side for a while? Did some of that show up? And— oh yeah, yeah. Oh my God, absolutely.

Yeah. And like, my first 3 months, I'm like shit, have I made a mistake here? Like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's not I don't know what I'm doing, I did, but like, it was, yeah, there was definitely times where I'm like, okay, I feel like I'm bashing the phones hard and I don't have any distractions. There's nothing else where, you know, in bigger companies, you've always got 10,000 emails coming at you all the time. You're pulled into meetings. I'm like, I'm really focused. I'm working really long days. Nothing's happening. Like, what is going on? Is it me? Am I the problem? And yeah, there was, more often than not, I was kind of doubting myself and what I was doing. But you have to be patient, especially when, you know, I think I always say I was at ground zero. I had nothing. You know, you're starting with nothing. I have no clients, there's no database, there's literally zero, and you're building something from scratch. And so you have to be patient with yourself in those first 3 months, and you have to be fair to yourself. But you do have to keep going. You have to figure out things as quickly as possible. And as I say, it's about, for me, the focus, I need to get cash in. So what do I need to do to get cash in? And almost kind of reverse engineered the approach to ensure I was doing the right things to get there. But yeah, I would, there was the first 3 months, there was a lot of like, oh shit, this is a bad idea. Yeah.

And I think also as well, what I've learned so far from you is like having that iteration mindset and keep trying different things and not, not being complacent or not being, uh, not have pride around, well, I know I've always done it this way, so like, surely this has got to work. It really sounds like you just, just was always looking at what can I do better, and then you was honest with yourself, and then you start to make those improvements.

Yeah, yeah.

So we'll get into the client side, but I think it's the right time just to acknowledge it, like, with what we're talking about. What, what should we say around the lessons around starting with a co-founder that's not actually— let's talk, because they exited around November.

Yes.

Because I think this would have been part of this the, the mindset aspect, which what we're talking about here, self-doubt, whatever we want to call it. If, if you're running a recruitment business and it's just you, or you're a solo founder like me and you both are, if you're— it's why I'm such a big believer on like performing outside of work to perform in work. Like if you, if you're having a shit day mentally and you don't shake that off, there's a good chance that's going to affect your performance in work, right? So I think let's just acknowledge it. What do we want to say here? What were the lessons?

Yeah, it was really challenging. And, you know, the person I started the business with is fantastic. They're a really good person. They want to do well and succeed in life in general. And I don't have a bad word to say about them. I think that the biggest challenge you have to look at when you're launching a business with someone else is, Do we complement one another well? Do we work to the same standards? If we don't work to the same standards, what is that person bringing and what are you bringing, whereas you say you're complementing one another effectively? And are you both happy with that? And if the answer's yes, you know, maybe this could work. But it's kind of a bit like a marriage, you know, when you're going into business with someone. And it's, you don't want it to end in divorce. And it's kind of one of those things where you really have to test these things out. And I think that, you know, in hindsight, kind of went into things and I was very much the person in control of all the decisions, which I wanted. And that was kind of challenging for the other individual to deal with as well, because of course they want to be involved in decision-making. Well, you know, they're a co-founder. and they want to be involved in that, but it was very much my baby from the off. And I think the other thing that was the elephant in the room was that this person had done well previously, but they'd never been a, you know, a super biller that had brought on a ton of different clients. So again, the question was, what were they bringing? And I think I launched with them, and I think at first it was great because You know, you're accountable to one another, which I think is a really good thing. So I think if you're launching with someone else, then you don't want to let each other down. So you're always showing up for each other each day. You're very disciplined in your approach. So I think it definitely helped me to ensure that I was successful or driving to be successful. Whereas I think if you're on your own, there's— I would say there's not limitations necessarily. Yeah, it is much harder. It can be much harder. So, actually to begin with, you know, maybe that was a good thing, but then it kind of quickly came to the fore that this person really struggled with business development. And so, you know, I was the one that was driving the BD, but also trying to support them in performing business development. And, you know, I got increasingly frustrated because they weren't necessarily listening to what I was saying and implementing what I was saying. And I didn't want to get to the point where I was kind of like, you need to do this, this, and this. You know, this person had 10 years' experience. And so, you know, I don't want to do that because that's just not fair. And it was becoming increasingly untenable. And I think more so because, you know, I was seeing a lot of success and it kind of got to a point where I'm like, oh, I'm just billing so much and I kind of feel bad and we're hiring.

You could impact the celebration of wins.

Yeah. I couldn't even celebrate my win.

It just didn't feel right.

Like, no, okay, no, I didn't feel right.

I mean, the reason why we bring this up is it's less about the person, individual. I think the bit that I hear there then is— you can let me know what you think about this— but I feel like the, the lessons there then are maybe we could have been a bit more diligent on what do we truly feel like we both bring. Yeah, how do we complement each other? And really doing that you know, go on maybe a few more dates, these things, before, yeah, we start that journey together, is what I'm hearing. I don't know if that's fair, but I feel like I think what you're sharing with us there is if you are going to go into business with someone, I agree with you, like, it's a very important partnership, just as important as, as marriage really is. Like, is this the person that I truly believe I can build a great business with? Do we complement each other? Do that due diligence, really be honest with each other. Maybe you didn't do enough of that.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, I don't think I did. I think I went into it a little bit— I was naive. I was really naive, and I was like, I, I wasn't listening to some of the red flags. I don't— you don't listen to red flags, but you know what I mean. I wasn't kind of listening to my gut. I wasn't listening to my gut where I was like, this doesn't feel right, I know this isn't right. And I think I went with it, and actually I should have trusted my gut and, and actually And I think also maybe there was a fear thing as well, a fear of like, oh God, do I want to go on this on my own? And actually it would be easier if I do this with someone else. And it's the safety in numbers thing as well. So maybe that would— I know, in fact, that definitely was a part of it for sure.

Yeah. No, I appreciate it being honest. And that goes both ways. I'm sure he's— that the person's reflected on it and that there might have been things that he could have done more as well, right? You're both accountable and responsible for it.

Yeah, for sure.

So let's segue into really breaking down some of your, uh, the, the business development side of things, because like clearly this is an area that you've really excelled in. So I think when we prepared for this, some of the things that was very evident to me was you're very detail-oriented.

Yes.

I've got like nearly 10 bullet points here on like your sales process. Yeah. But before we go there, because I think this is one of the core lessons from Q1 is talk to us about what I've got here. Non-negotiables, input-based. Like, talk to us about what you now— and this is something that I've been speaking to some solo founders about recently where we're just talking about it there. Like, you're no longer part of a team. You have to hold yourself accountable. You have to figure out what does a great week look like, right? You haven't got that manager over your shoulder going, Lizzie, you haven't had a very great week this week, how come? You have to do that. You have to take that onto yourself and you have to hold yourself accountable, which is why having non-negotiables, figuring out what does a great week look like, what do I need to be doing to get close to my goals. It sounds like when we prepared for this, you've really figured that out. We've got a really good grasp of that.

Yeah.

So talk to us about that. What does like a good week look like? I've got here, yeah, every single week you've got profile candidates, client contacts, leads. Talk to me about this because I think this is a good lesson for people.

For sure. So I think that the first thing I do in terms of with you know, this is not necessarily metrics-based, but typically there's kind of 2 or 3 objectives that I set myself each week, as well as I make sure that I have kind of a thing which says, these are the shots on, this is kind of what I have to close out, this is what my pipeline looks like. But there's 2 or 3 objectives which are typically inputs-based that I sort of help hold myself accountable to, and it could be a need to profile Bob to these 20 client contacts here. Really simple thing, but essentially, these are things that are entirely in my control that actually there's no excuse by the end of the week. If I haven't done this, that's because I haven't put the effort in to do this, and that's entirely on me. And then, in terms of some of the high-level metrics, yeah, so, there's a certain number of hiring managers I'm adding to the system each week, a certain number of candidates, certain number of candidate screens that I'm conducting. So, there's obviously the conversations piece, the candidate and client conversations. They're more outputs-based, but it's the inputs that I really focus on. I'm not even focused on send-outs, first interviews, anything like that. It's about the candidate conversations, the leads, the adding of the hiring managers and the candidates, and then profiling at least one candidate each week. And then I think if I'm doing all of that stuff, the other things will come. And so, I'll get those pitch calls booked in. I'll hopefully win more clients, win more searches, that sort of thing. But I don't tend to focus too much on outputs because I know if I'm doing the other stuff right and the quality's there, that'll come through.

Respect, yeah. People, like, again, it's so market dependent, but like, if I was to look at your whiteboard and you said, yeah, I had a good week, what would I be seeing then? Roughly, dafer numbers. Sorry.

I feel like a dick when I say this.

Just say it. What would be like a good week? Week on those numbers roughly?

Uh, so my whiteboard, I mean, uh, I did over 500 grand in Q1, so I don't know, like, that's, I guess, so like, but so what would have been a good week in that, in that, in that Q?

Do you get what I mean? Like, what would have been a good week on those inputs?

That's what I think people would be interested in. Okay, those inputs, I'd say, God, it's really hard. Like, I need to visualize these numbers. I say, I'm, you know, I want to be adding at least 30 new hiring managers, I want to be profiling probably 2 candidates, if I'm perfectly honest with you.

2 a week?

2 a week, 25 each, but that's like relentless follow-up. So, I'm following up pretty much every day. And then in terms of candidate conversations, I'm probably having new, brand new candidate conversations, I'd say 10 brand new candidate screens. And then in terms of then pitch calls or client conversations, I'm having at least 10 new client conversations in a week. So it's like there's a lot of— it's just a lot of bashing the phones, kind of targeting the right people. There's the leads piece. I mean, I didn't even say leads. Leads are like the number one.

They are the number one. What would be a good week of leads, you think?

I'd say in terms of leads, like really solid candidate information, like niche, niche information, I'd say probably 15. Like really, that's like exceptional week. But, you know, I probably target 5 to 10 of really good bits of information that will lead to things. Like typically, you know, if I'm getting 15 bits of information, that should convert to at least 5 pitch calls or 5 calls with kind of contacts and that sort of thing. So, really it's about, for me, it's all those inputs there that are going into, you know, I say it's a funnel, you know, the classic funnel approach. And it's pretty wide at the top, but there's all those different elements, all of which are entirely in my control, that are kind of going in at the top, and then stuff starts coming out at the bottom. And it's about, you know, we've said about the iteration and refining and making sure that you're figuring out what works for you in terms of approach and things like that. But I think I've kind of got that down pretty well. So now it's really about getting those numbers in for the rest to come out. I don't have to do so much of that now. And it's not— I don't have to— I don't need to do those kind of really big numbers because a lot of what I do now comes from, from a referral.

Yeah, 50% has come from referrals. Yeah, yeah. But you have to— like, the bit why I wanted to share that is then people can listen to that and they can go, you know what, I don't know that for my desk, or I don't know that for my business. You've got to figure that out.

Yeah.

And the thing that I love about, especially when you're an entrepreneur, like, all those things— there's a lot that you can't control, but all of those things there that you just said, in Italian, you control. Yeah. That's the helpful part, isn't it? And you've got to figure that out.

Yeah.

And then the more iteration, the more experience, you can go, you know what, when I had my best ever quarter, this is what things look like. If I shoot for that every week, yeah, downstream from that should be I hit my monetary goals and I end up where I want to be. That's what you've got to figure out, and then that's where you've got to hold yourself accountable.

Yeah.

That's why I wanted to share that, that's helpful for people.

Yeah, yeah. And you can make mega money. Like, I think that's it, you've gotta— it is the inputs. I think a lot of people just focus on the output, so they focus on sendouts and first interviews. I'm like, cool, you're already too far ahead. A lot of that is not in your control. Do what's within your control and the rest will come. Again, as long as you're kind of doing the right, right sort of thing, yeah, um, then you'll, you'll do really well. And it's just effort. Like, I don't think you should have to say this, but like, if you're not willing to put in the work consistently, like, you have to be consistent, you're not going to be successful.

And then I have to ask, because you've just said how important, uh, they are, I'm just always curious, like, how do you— if I was in your team, you've got team members now, yeah, and you're like An exceptional week leads-wise would be 10 to 15.

Yeah.

And this is what a lead is.

Yeah.

What would you say?

What is a lead? A lead is where you've got exclusive information from a candidate or a client. It's basically someone within the market where they're saying that they are hiring or there is intent to hire, or you're finding something out about what they're doing in drug development. So in drug development, there's certain phases of the process. And so, they might be saying, actually, we're anticipating top-line data here at this point, and you'll know that that is a trigger point for hiring. So again, if they're getting positive data, that will lead to then, okay, we're progressing to phase 3, which is maybe a global study, and they're going to need a tonne of people to help execute that study. So, those are the sorts of things that we look for. And then obviously we can kind of piece things together from that. But it has to be, it's not necessarily exclusive, but it has to be information that is not in the public domain that people would know about. And you have got that from having a conversation with someone.

That would make it even more valuable as a lead.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's not like an ad value.

So it's not like you've seen it on Crunchbase or like—

Yeah, that's rubbish. I hate that. Like, I really hate that. And even when, you know, someone's just launched, if they say that they've raised a Series A or a Series B or something, you're too late. They've already got that plan, you know, they already know what they're doing. And much like when someone posts a job, I'm like, that is the worst. I hate advert leads. It's like, yeah, it's good to know that they're hiring, that's important. But like, beyond that, they've already strategised in terms of how they're looking to fill that position, and they might have already engaged a search firm. So, you're too late. I, that sort of approach, I just don't like it.

And then, is this, is it fair to say then this is where operating in the senior part of the market can help with this. Doesn't make it any easier, but in terms of the people that you are speaking to, they're more likely to be in the rooms or involved in strategizing as to when this might happen. That's the other benefit, I feel like.

100%. Yeah, yeah, they're in there making those decisions, or they're part of those decisions. So yeah, they're privy to so much company information, and if you've got that relationship— I mean, that's the one thing I really I love doing and is very important is that face time with clients and candidates. I'm always meeting with my clients and candidates in person, and it's a much better way to build rapport with someone. Of course, you know, on the phone is fine, VC is fine, but that in person, it just, you can't beat it. And then from there, the amount of information that you can, it's not that you can get from someone, that sounds awful because you, it's like I'm trying to teach face time.

Yeah, it's just a lot more natural together. It is.

Yeah, it is. You're just having a conversation with a friend. You know, that's really what it is. But you've built that rapport and that trust that will enable that, that exchange of information, and it's invaluable.

So I want to ask you, and then we'll segue into the just breaking down some of the, the sales process. How many, roughly, like, how many, how many meetings do you— face-to-face meetings you reckon you'll have a quarter, roughly?

Uh, I'm meeting with candidates and clients every single week without fail. Yeah, yeah, without fail. I also, because I like getting out of the office, I think it's important. Well, I like being in the office as well, but I think it's nice to get out and it's having a change of scenery, even if it's meeting someone I've placed or a client. It's just, uh, it getting out is, it's nice. It kind of breaks things up.

But you are very intentional about that.

Very intentional.

And then, because I've sat down with a lot of people, and I think you can tell me what you think about this, but I almost think what you're doing there has become— you've been in the game longer than me, but that's almost become like a competitive advantage again.

100%.

So the question I want to ask you, and I don't know if you have asked this of more hiring managers— it could also be of people that you work with from the talent perspective— but have you ever asked someone, the other recruiters that you work with, how many of them have you met? Have you ever asked that?

What recruiters?

So if you were to meet a hiring manager, yeah, have you ever asked them? Oh yeah, like curious, like how many other recruiters have you met? Uh, have you? Fine if you haven't. Okay, fine. The reason I bring up is like quite a few people this year that I've sat down with, because they're big on face-to-face, getting out, doing these things, they've seen real benefit to it. When they're asked that question, most of the time, talking 90% of hiring managers I spoke to are saying no, actually. It's interesting you ask that, I've never actually met the recruiter that we spent over 6 figures with this year. So that's why it's interesting.

Yeah, I think it's just the norm though, as you say. Like, I think when you've been doing it for so long, there's some people that are newer to the game, especially people that started, I guess, from, you know, 2020 onwards, I'd say, and those COVID years. Where they didn't have to go out and, or they couldn't go out and meet clients. And I think there's kind of a, I hate to say it, maybe a slight generational thing where, you know, I'd say to some of my junior team members, hey, let's go, we're going to go out and we're going to meet with these people here, we're doing this, and they'd be visibly, there'd be fear in their face. And, you know, you couldn't get them to go out. It was kind of weird.

I mean, as the thing here to highlight is, as you'll know, being part of Recruiter Hub, there's a lot of UK firms that now serve the US market, right? And this is one of the— if you're listening to this and you're in that and you're on the journey to get over to the US or you're in the US right now, that's one of the things that you shouldn't be complacent with. That's one of your edges, that you're in New York, you're in the US.

Yeah.

This person, this company spent 6 figures with us, whatever.

Yeah.

Like, you should be—

you've got to be present. And also, I think there's a lot of UK people that are based in the UK that they set up and they say, well, we're going to do the US market and they maybe haven't done it before. And then people always say, oh, recruitment is recruitment is recruitment. It is not. The US market is different to the UK market. And the US, it's about relationships. It's not about performing a transaction. They want to know that you give a shit, and you've got to demonstrate that you give a shit. And it's about working in partnership with them to solve their problems, and it's their workforce problems. And you have to be equipped to have those conversations. It's not about I'll just send you any old crap and we'll fill this job. And then, I guess, what comes with that is the meeting in person. It is meeting both candidates and clients. They like it when you've met candidates in person. If you say, oh, yeah, yeah, I've met these 5 people here that I've sent through to you for interview, and that gives them that sense of, okay, this person knows what they're doing, they've asked all the right questions, you know, it gives that sense of security, as it were. And as I say, it's about building that relationship and being consultative and not being transactional.

Love it. Let's break down this sales process. Yeah, so we've got— and have you just sort of, side note, have you always worked on like a retained basis typically? Is that—

or no, no, no, no, I had in my previous company, but a lot was contingent.

And again, it wasn't at 90%?

No, gosh, no, absolutely not. No.

So let's just break it down first and then we'll get into it. So sales process in terms of Uh, what ends up happening is you end up winning retained searches is discovery calls.

Yeah.

From that point, we then have pitching solutions. From that then point, if they then begin working with us, we'll then do role qualification with the relevant people. Then there's a particular tool that I know RecruiterHub, right, called, uh, Coda. That's one of the ways that you present, uh, talent. Then from that point, you have a solid process, weekly search reports. 20% on signing, 40% on shortlist of 3, 40% remainder when they start. Yeah. Let's break this down a bit. So I think when I speak to a lot of recruitment entrepreneurs when they first start out, start out, you can tell me what you think about this on the client biz development side. One of the things that they do tend to struggle with, particularly more early on but can be throughout, is like, what is Lizzy's point of difference? Like, what is Lizzy's USP? I don't know if that showed up for you when you started first having some of these pitch calls and some of the discovery calls, how did you think about that? How did you position like, this is why we're different, or is that even important? I don't know.

Yeah, I think it is important because there's lots of other, you know, recruiters out there doing what you do. Um, but I think it was, I guess, the thing that set us apart, I'd say, is our process. Obviously, that you've got to get to a point where you can articulate your process and kind and get, get that. But I would say that, um, my thing is kind of my market niche in the area in which I operate, and I'm very good at articulating that on, on an initial call, but also over email as well. So I'm pretty good at articulating over email to then get the call, to then have that discovery conversation, to then go through the process. So I think my, my thing that makes me stand out is my quality approach and the fact that I do have a pretty unique network of really, really good candidates, and that enables me to move very quickly.

How, how do you— I think what's really interesting about this, when I've sat down with recruiters that operate in this way, I think one of the main differences that, that I find, and you can tell me what you think about this, is this discovery call piece.

Yeah.

And I think that's one of the main differences, I feel like, because when we speak to recruitment teams and we're helping them develop their teams and they're really trying to get their team to connect the dots, be more commercially savvy, and take a step back from the job brief and ask smart questions and trying to get the information that you talked about earlier around the different triggers that might happen later down the line and the bigger picture. Yeah, that can be really hard to get to when they've been so used to being like, Lizzie's got a brief, or Lizzie's hiring, tell me about that person and then I'll go get them, do you know? Whereas I think the, the recruiters that operate in this way, whether it be exclusive, retained, whatever, or want to operate it more in this way, they're really disciplined and militant with, no, no, I'm not here, we're not talking about the brief, I'm not here to talk about the person you are, right? We need to understand where are you on this drug development, like, whatever. Is that, is that fair? I don't know, you tell me. Like, this discovery call piece is absolutely crucial.

Yeah.

So one, do you sort of agree with that? Thoughts on that? And then two, I want to understand How do you position this when these hiring managers are so used to going, recruiter, yeah, Lizzie, we need X?

I think that I position myself in a certain way where I've already kind of elevated myself, my offering, what I'm about, where I'm kind of like a— I'll have a call with someone and I'm very clear on the invite, but also on the call, I control the flow of the conversation because I will open it and say, right, So the purpose of today's call is to find out a little bit more about exactly what you're looking for from a partnership, how you typically engage with search partners, what the future looks like, and then we can come up with a plan moving forward surrounding how we can execute this over a long-term period of time to make sure that we're solving your problems and we're working in partnership together. And so I framed the call at the beginning So, there are no kind of misconceptions that we're talking about a specific search or a specific candidate or anything like that. It's really about what are the problems that you're facing right now, what are the problems you're anticipating in the future, and then how can we work together to solve those? So, it's really about asking a tonne of questions in that discovery call and then saying, okay, look, I think there's probably a couple of approaches we can take here. Sometimes I'll deliver an approach on the call because it's really clear-cut. It's like, okay, we've got these 3 critical VP searches here, and we need them in post yesterday, and blah, blah, blah. So, that's clearly retain search. But there might be somewhere it's like, look, there could be a longer-term kind of project approach here, so we'll need to come back with a few different options. We've scoped things out, we've got a high-level understanding of exactly what that looks like, and then let's book in another call. And then another call, then you go through the solution of what you're proposing, the benefits to them, the advantage to them. And genuinely, I'm like, with a lot of companies, I find it weird if they've allocated budget to go to search and then they pitch a ton of search firms against each other. And I'm like, why would you do that? Why wouldn't you identify a partner to work with that is going to work in partnership with you, they're incentivized to work in partnership with you as well. So, it's about getting the incentive right, and whether that's paying, you know, some upfront, some mid-through process, some at the end of the process in kind of a fair tranche, then that person's incentivized to deliver to your roles. And actually, you could potentially get a really good deal as well if you're a client, If you are, I guess, retaining a search firm because you could probably get a reduced fee as well. There's just so many benefits to go and retain. But yeah, I would say that typically it's discovery call and then we'll sell different solutions that we think are relevant for that client. We'll share the benefits and reason why, then we'll get an MSA in place and then we'll do the role qualification. But I think most others get it the other way round where they'll do a half-assed role qualification on the first call. They'll try and get a few candidates over. In the meantime, they'll do some crappy MSA process and maybe they'll get something signed for one search and then that's it. It's a one and done and the transaction's been performed. This approach ensures that you're more consultative and you're creating more opportunity for yourself.

What does that— what did you say that M— what was that M and what does that stand for?

MSA. Oh, master service agreement or terms of business.

Terms of business.

Okay. Yeah.

Um, all right, so there's a couple of things here then, because I think that'd be some lessons for, for people. So one, just quickly, I feel like you did a good job there, but if I'm listening right now and I'm like, yeah, I would love to work with my, uh, clients and customers way more in that way, what would you say? Because you hadn't always worked in this way.

Yeah.

What would you say if I'm listening right now, what would be the main benefits to the recruiter to being committed to not just falling back to the status quo and going back to how you've done things, like you were just saying. What are the main benefits to me as a recruiter if I'm committed to working with clients more this way and having more of this approach? What's the main benefit to a recruiter, do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think the obvious benefit is, is that if you've got a client that is committed to partnering with you, the probability of you filling a search and ultimately generating revenue is significantly higher than working on a contingent basis against maybe 5 other search firms. It's just I would never put myself in that position because my probability of monetizing that relationship is so low. I'd rather just go do more, more BD and try and win another committed client that wants to work with me. And so for me, it's about working with people that are committed, engaged, and ultimately they want to fill that role or many roles within their company. And so the benefit is I'm generating revenue. I'm probably having a fun time as well because I've got a client that is nice, that values me and values what I'm bringing to the party as well. And they're not just treating me like a resume provider. And that means that you can also provide a much better quality, I guess, candidate experience as well, because you're not up against loads of other agencies who are, you know, I guess, hammering or using the same rubbishy tools that you do. And actually, that will make you stand out as well from a candidate experience perspective.

Fair. And have you found that, because I'm sure you've done some reflecting on year one, have you found also with this approach, this sort of average spend per account has been fairly healthy. I know it will vary, but I feel like that could be the other benefit as well, right?

100%. Like, we— one of our biggest objectives, so we have 4 objectives that we focus on in the year, and one of them is around client spend. And so we want to— so one is we want 15 accounts, of which we've got 8 that are over $100,000. And so far this year, we've got 4 over $100,000. We're obviously at the end of Q1, so I think we should probably—

Hopefully hit that, yeah.

Smash that number. But that really, that's so important for us because it enables forecasting moving forwards. And actually, I remember in my old company, there was a lot of the time we, in November, we'd sit down with the CFO and, you know, he'd be like, all right, cool, we're putting budgets together. So, where's our money coming from next year? And I'd be like, finger in the air, I'd be like, ah, I don't know, maybe this client here. And it was, it was, there was based on nothing, you know? And actually now, very confidently coming into this year, I can say, right, I know that we're gonna generate revenue from this client, this client, and this client. I know that. Then in turn, that enables us to forecast for hiring as well. So we know confidently we are gonna generate a certain amount of revenue with a handful of clients. There are others coming down the pipeline as well that are demonstrating the kind of right traits, where we think, okay, we're probably going to get some more here. We're in the room having those conversations surrounding workforce strategy and human strategy, so we know exactly what that looks like. When a client is going to search, they'll come to us. And so, that forecasting piece is— it's a game changer. And as I say, that enables us to then hire other people at certain times.

Yeah, I just think if you're listening to this and that isn't one of your priorities this year, it has to be.

Yeah, because I saw you posted about that the other day as well.

All right, like, it's just a really— like, I think we can all be caught up on, like, like you just said there, if you're so reliant on we're gonna hit our target this year with clients that don't even know we exist yet, right? That shouldn't be like your core strategy. I think there'll be companies that, yeah, you've had interviews with or you've done some work with, but actually, have you got a clear strategy on, yeah, how you take them from spending $10,000 with you to $100,000. Even if you've got that as a priority and you've thought about that journey and what you can do, that's a really good use of time. And yeah, I think you should be done. I want to just double-click into the discovery calls really quickly. Bar the sort of industry expertise stuff that you would be asking the smart questions around, like, if I was, if I was to listen to one of those calls, what do you— what would be some of the, like, really good quality questions, the thing that I would hear? Because you said around the word that we start hearing when we think about this process, then problems. I think I always want to try and make it as easy as people— as easy as possible for people to understand. Okay, well, what does that actually mean? Yeah, like what would be some of the smart questions you'd ask to these people to uncover problems? Is it around their— the hiring process they've had in the past? Is it around previously when you've worked with search firms, what's worked, what hasn't? I don't know, what are some of the smart questions that aren't the, the market stuff that maybe people can start thinking about when it comes to building their own discovery? Yeah, cool.

So I mean, I think the market thing is important because I would ask that first, and I open with, okay, what does the pipeline look like? What are the sorts of milestones that you're looking to achieve this year? I think once you're asking that question, that then gets them thinking kind of more macro, right? Okay, right, these are the different kind of things or areas we're hiring to. And then they'll always say Sometimes there's like an aha moment where they're like, shit, there's like, we've got a lot going on, haven't we? And then that feeds in nicely over, okay, right, so how many have you got in your team currently? What are the gaps in your team? How about contract or consulting and perm? What's the split between the two? When do you envisage that will change? Is there a kind of a trigger point where some of those contractors will go perm? And what is that? When do you anticipate that to happen? And then you kind of move on to the engagement piece of how do you engage with search firms? How have you engaged previously? What has been your experience? What did you like? What didn't you like? What are you looking for moving forward? So, I ask all those kind of questions there around that. I don't actually— I was going to say I occasionally ask about spend. I don't really ask about spend. I kind of don't. Care about that? Like, we're having this conversation because there's obviously a need here. And then that's kind of when I go through into our methodology and how we operate. So, I think once I've asked all those questions there, I'm well equipped. I'm like, okay, right, these are the things I need to pull on. It's the classic FAB selling, you know, where it's like, okay, right, they've mentioned that this step, they really like that this search firm provided them with a long list of candidates before they reached out. Right, FAB, I'll mention that. Okay, well, something that we do is we use Coder, and we create a whole long list of candidates based on a search qualification that we've done with you, and then you'll click the candidates that you would like us to profile. It's an interactive tool, so you can leave comments, we'll leave comments as well. That enables a much smoother process. You've mentioned that you need these people in post as soon as possible. If we're working in that manner, that means that our time is being saved because we're reaching out to the people that you're most excited by. So we'll prioritise reach out to those profiles, and then we'll have screening calls with them. So you kind of, kind of go through that whole process with them, but you can only do that, and you can only articulate your methodology once you've understood what their pain points and problems are, the challenges they face, the things they also like, and really lean into that too. And then you can kind of go on to pricing and things like that.

Yeah, I love that insight there on actually what you found the best way to start these conversations, which I know you said some aha moments, but also it's those hiring managers are going to realize, oh shit, like Liz is actually asking me good questions here.

Yeah.

And like, this isn't just a typical recruiter call because I'm having to think about the things that we're thinking about in the boardroom, right? Our projects, the deadlines that we have, what happens if we don't hit them. And you've got to figure out that for your market.

Yeah.

But I like that. So actually starting there, and again, I think that's one of the best ways that you can showcase with action your expertise, what you're about, how you're different. Yeah. But I think, yeah, getting them in that frame of mind is probably where you want to start thinking about what are the, those good quality questions that you can ask, whatever that is for your market.

Yeah.

Because then you can work backwards from there. Okay, you said that your target this year because you're a VP of sales is this, and you're 50% behind right now. Is that— and do you know what I mean? Starting there and then working backwards from there.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think a lot of the time I'm always very clear on that when I'm having these conversations. I'm always pulling on previous experience and name-dropping people. So, I name-drop clients that I work with and specific hiring managers. It might be CEOs, CMOs, CSOs, and even, you know, talent folks that I work with as well. So, I make sure that I'm name-dropping people that they would know, and again, that provides immediate credibility. It's like, oh, they work with so-and-so, okay, fantastic, right? And then you're immediately elevated then from a conversation standpoint, which is always a good thing.

Yeah, I love that. What would be— because I want to just make sure we have you share— you just touching on it there, but I think people always interested in running these searches, what you do, what the deliverables are. But if you— if me and you were to chat after a pitching call when you said that went really well What would you have done well?

Oh God, I don't know.

I think from what you said, you would have looped it back to like what they told you their problems were. That's like core of it.

Yeah.

So you've made them feel you've understood, you've listened.

Yeah.

Because you said this, this is how I'm gonna propose that we work. That's at the core of it.

Yeah.

But is there anything that isn't, I don't know, important there to share on the pitching calls?

I think as I ask, I make sure I'm prepared. I don't over-prepare though. I'm not kind of— I think you just have to do. I think there's some people that kind of over-prepare for things. I'm just like, what are you doing? It's just a waste of time. The best thing to do is ask good questions. That's it. You've got to make sure you're prepared to ask good questions. My questions don't change much from call to call. And then otherwise, I think the thing that probably makes me stand out is me. You know, I'm quite personable. I'm very happy to, you know, I guess, to get to know someone. So I think that definitely kind of makes me stand out. But I ask good questions, I listen to what someone's saying, and then I articulate a solution that is right for them and that I believe is right for them, and I can back it up as to the reasons why.

And then do you normally do that with, like, visuals, pitch deck? Not really your thing?

No, I mean, it depends. If I'm pitching for a big project, yes. But otherwise, I don't do too much. I think a lot of what I'll do, I'll back up something. So once I've had a conversation, I will always send through kind of a high-level, I guess, a methodology breakdown just surrounding how we do things.

So like the process?

Yeah, it's like a 10-page document that's been put together. It sounds like a lot. It's not really that much. But it just breaks down the overall search process end to end. A lot of that we discussed in the call, some of it we haven't. And then it also includes kind of pricing breakdown as well and what that looks like. And again, you make it as standard as possible. You're like, this is the norm. And I think a lot of people apologize for being retained or for charging 30% of base salary or whatever it might be. It's like, no, this is normal. And I think once you normalize it and that conversation and you can demonstrate the value that you're bringing, yeah, of course I'm charging 30%. And yeah, it's going to be retained. And yeah, it's going to be 20% upfront, 40% on shortlist, 40% on start. That's That's just it.

And if we get— if you start working with a client, so I've only got here weekly search reports, I don't know, like, what, what are the main differences here? So if we mean you're working retained, yeah, what are the agreements in terms of deliverables then, typically?

Um, so like, I'd always kind of high level, I'll share the search process and I'll say, you know, you can expect us to shortlist— or longlist, I should say— probably 30 candidates within 24 hours of a search being initiated. So, that's a long list of, you know, 30 really good people that we think, based on their LinkedIn profile or what we have on our database, would be capable of doing this job. A lot of the time, you know, a candidate is capable of doing the job, but really, it's about understanding culturally whether they would be the right fit for that organisation. And that's why it's so important to get to know the client really well, and that the meeting in person and cadence calls and things like that are very important. So, 30 longlist, then we will send that longlist through to the client using Coda. As I say, it's an interactive platform. They will check the candidates they want us to prioritise reach out to. We would say that we want to screen 10 candidates to be able to then submit 5 candidates for interview. Typically, if we're reaching out to 20 or so, we will have at least 10 conversations. And then, as I say, from that we'll get 5 send-outs. And then from that, you know, they'll interview probably 3 to 5 candidates. So our ratios are pretty good. And then from that, we know that that will lead to placement. That's enough candidates to get through the process.

And then what sort of— do you have like a cadence with the client that you're working with? So each week you're going to have like a call?

Yeah.

Talk about how you got on or no?

Yeah, yeah. So what we'll do is we'll also have— usually it's a Friday cadence call with the client. And we'll kind of go through some of the conversations we've had. We tend to focus also on why someone might have said no to being kind of put forward and we'll share feedback. That leads to us sometimes altering the search as well. So, if it's a particularly challenging search, these conversations enable us to pivot slightly where we need to, to then find the right candidates and kind of progress forward. But then they also do get a search report with, qualitative and quantitative information. So really, it's just the high level. Here are additional candidates we've added. So obviously, I said the first 24 hours is 30, but we might need to add more. So we're always kind of searching and adding more people. And then we kind of provide a breakdown of the numbers, the notes as well associated with candidates we've spoken to, and then any high-level kind of, this is the feedback we've experienced here. And then, you know, hopefully that enables us to close out a search confident. It's a really collaborative approach.

Yeah, no, it sounds it. And then I know it will vary, but like typically how long are you saying to customers from this point we should have someone signing a contract?

I know it will vary, but— Yeah, that's a hard one. I mean, it does depend. But again, I think because of this approach, you know, we take hiring seriously. And if our clients work at the same— well, all our clients do work in the same way, they're demonstrating that they take it seriously as well. So, all our clients are very responsive and following this approach, you know, usually we'll have within 6 weeks, there'll be someone signing on the dotted line. There's some processes where it's more of the interviews can slow things down a little bit, just because, you know, we've got somewhere it's kind of 8, 10, 12 stage interview process. So that can sometimes take a bit of time. But yeah, you know, within 6 weeks we can get something from search initiation, you know, from qualification call to we've had someone sign, you know, 6 weeks, I would say, yeah.

And then have you had it yet where you worked in this way and then didn't deliver? Because that's people's biggest fears typically.

Not yet, no. I said, 'Tangerine, we haven't.' We actually haven't. And no, and again, I think it's about working with great clients, you know, I think that we've turned down clients. I've, you know, we've said no to some clients who say, oh, we only work at 20% contingent. I'm like, good for you, you continue, you continue doing that. And if you're getting what you need, fabulous. Like, that's absolutely fine. That's just not how we work. But so far, touch wood, we actually haven't not delivered.

The reason why I bring that up is one, that often can be when I speak to recruiters about working this way, that can be one of their biggest limiting belief, fear. There's a lot of things that go into it. But then also that can be one of the, the biggest obstacles— you can tell me— but one of the biggest obstacles from the client side. And quite a few people that I've spoken to— I don't know if this has come up in your conversations or not— but like from the conversations that I've had, a lot of the— I say a lot, but the conversations I've had, they've said that the hiring managers they've spoken to, they've engaged a big search firm and then they haven't delivered. And they didn't get refunded. And that's part of where a lot of this fear can come from on that side as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But yeah, so that when I do speak to recruiters working this way, that, that's often what has come up in conversations is that I can't— what, what's the, the, the phrase? And I think people have used it with these big search firms as well, is like, no one gets fired for engaging like KPMG or whatever. Like, no one gets fired for engaging one of these big Shrek firms, for example. But it's come up a few times in terms of sometimes the obstacle actually is, well, actually, Lizzie, we engage with recruiter this way that said they're going to deliver these things. Yeah, we gave them 30% on initiation and then they didn't deliver. Yeah, I've had a search open for however long and we haven't got the money back.

Yeah, we actually won a client that way. Um, and so we, we, one of our biggest clients, they, they were working with a big search firm, a shrek firm, And we're talking big money. So it was like up to 40% of base and bonus and fringe. And so we're talking insane fees here, you know, $200,000, $250,000 fees, and they hadn't delivered. And so they had been burned. Now, I think that with this specific client I'm thinking about, they were— I don't want to use the word desperate. They were so desperate. To have good talent, and I demonstrated that I have good talent in my network, that they said, okay, we'll engage you retained and we'll still be on the hook for these fees with this other, you know, shrek firm, and we don't care because we just need to work with someone good. They're now one of my best clients. So I think I was kind of, I don't want to say lucky, but I kind of managed that in the right way. But there are a lot of clients, as you say, that say, oh, we've been burned previously. I really think it's just about being able to demonstrate your value-add a lot of the time, and not everyone will go for it. Like, I get it, you know, some will still say, no, like, we just don't want to move forward with this, and this is why, and until you've proven yourself, we don't care sort of thing. It's contingent or nothing. So, I think, look, if someone said to me, right, it's only contingent, and you've kind of gone through all avenues, and you need to kind of build some sort of credibility, then I'm like, okay, I would maybe consider it if it was fully exclusive, and we still have cadence calls, and there's kind of— it's a very collaborative approach. But otherwise, I'm not working for free. You have access to my network, and if you want me to prioritise your search, all my other companies I'm working with and clients I'm working with are retained. So, the reality is I'm probably going to prioritise them because they've demonstrated that they are committed to hiring above you. So, I think that would be the kind of downside for any client that wants contingent. But I think I'd always focus on, you know, even if they have been burned, why I'm different, what makes me good. I'd give them references. I'd say, look, you know what, I'm obviously telling you these things. I'm selling you why I think I'm good. But I'd kind of say, go and speak to this client here, this client here, independently of me, and ask about their experience. And if that aligns, let's talk. Um, so I, I definitely kind of use that to my advantage, but definitely something that people should anticipate from a client's perspective. 100%.

And then, you know, that example you just gave, because this is again one of the things that I know when you're a recruitment founder, it's just a bit— it feels a bit different to say no to work and walk away with it. Have you had to do that? Yeah. Where you've judged it and gone, this is a client that I think ticks a lot of boxes and you know what, we've gone for every avenue. Okay, I'm gonna agree to work in this way, but then this is where I want us to end up working. Have you had to do that then?

Oh, actually no, I haven't. I've turned down clients. I've said no, I'm not working to this and good luck. But I haven't, no, I haven't kind of done it where I've started contingent and upgraded to retained. It's just been, this is it, we're doing retained.

Yeah. What do you think about, again, when I've spoke to a lot of recruiters about this, is when I spoke to people that operate in this way, the way that you work, they don't— it's not even an option.

Yeah.

To work— me and you work exclusive contingent. That's something that they do say is like, again, perception positioning, it is really critical.

Yeah.

But I'm assuming on this pitch call, yeah, you don't go, well, we could work in this way and it's exclusive contingent. You're like, this is how we're going to work together. It's not an option.

No, it's not.

Yeah, that's something to think about, isn't it? It's like, if you want to work towards this way And the best time to do it? You've never worked with a customer before. Like, they don't know any different in terms of working with a lead gen.

You've got to be confident. Like, I think if you're confident in how you're delivering it, but also it's about teeing it up in the right way. So if you've had the conversation of all these problems, pains, you understand exactly where they're at, you're like, I know that you are in a relatively challenging situation right now and you need someone that will partner with you. And then it's a, have I demonstrated through my methodology and approach and some of the other people that I've worked with that I actually do deliver and I'm really good at what I'm doing? And like, the answer is yeah. Cool. Why wouldn't you go retained? It's like, it's a no-brainer. And that's all I pitch. I don't give options. It's not like saying, you know, if you're buying a house and you're like, okay, I could offer you $500,000 if that's the asking price. I could also offer you $450,000. And like, if you're the vendor, which one are you gonna take? $500,000. Of course you're gonna take $500,000. Like, it's just, it's a dumb thing to do. You'll take the lowest common denominator. So I don't give an option. I might do an option around payment terms, or I might change things up a little bit there. It's like, okay, if you want to move faster, um, or if, I don't know, you want to get cash in the bank quicker, you might do something different there on percentage. Like, stuff like that, cool, you can get creative. But in terms of the actual approach, it's like, no, it's retain.

Sorry, work. Yeah, love it. So what, what we're doubling down on now then, we're in year 2. Yeah, you had a pretty— let's be honest, how we, how are we topping year 2? What are we prioritizing? What are you doubling down on? You've already said one of the strategies you said, what, one of 4 or 5, but how can we have more 6-figure accounts? I think that that's really going to be critical for you to keep building on.

Yeah.

This first year you had of £1.5 million. What are you doubling down on in year 2 that you think is going to get you— I don't know what targets you've set yourself for year 2.

Yeah. So in terms of doubling down, really, it's a couple of things. So yeah, it's the— we want at least 15 billion clients. And we're talking good, committed, engaged business is what we're working across. 8 of those over $100,000. Beyond that is contract, so contract and perm. So our contract and perm split, so it's 40% contract, 60% perm is what we're looking at for the year. Again, for us, it's important that we've got a consistent run of book. And as I say, we're up to $15K a week at the moment. But we want to continue that because that enables us to forecast our business more effectively, even more than perm and understanding kind of workforce planning and things like that. And so we want to make sure we've got that split of 40-60. But other than that, it's really making sure that we are nurturing our current clients, not just to generate more revenue, so it's not just about that kind of 8 over 100,000 target, but it's also making sure that we're having conversations and getting a bit more creative around either the functional areas we're working in, are we working with every area? And the answer is 100%, no, we're not. So, okay, how can we account develop, number one? And number two, it's just making sure that we're offering or being creative in terms of the solutions that we're selling as well. So, it's okay, we've just done retained in ClinDev. Alright, well, how can we kind of expand beyond that? Okay, we want to work with the reg team, for example. And we know that they have a ton of contractors, cool, there could be an angle or an opportunity to get contractors in, or maybe there's a big project. So, there's something that we're doing at the moment, we're pitching for is a real, you know, big project work where we're almost like an embedded solution. So, again, it's how we can do more of that. And then one of the other things that we offer is talent pipelining to help with really succession planning and any kind of changes that they're anticipating or a client might be anticipating in an organization. So again, it's thinking, okay, well, how can we offer this solution, or is this relevant for our client right now? And just making sure that we're having those conversations. So really it's a lot of account development, account expansion, nurturing those relationships and clients that we have to create more opportunity now, as well as obviously new business development in the future. Yeah.

And then also you've got obviously person in the team now, and then now you're looking to grow the team as well, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. You just want to build a team of A players. —on the journey with you. Yeah, yeah.

So, we're still hiring. So, I know actually that was kind of one of the first things that I did was like, they all have to be in the office in New York. Like, you know, we have to do that. But actually, for me, it's about hiring mature individuals who are motivated to do well, and they want to be part of this journey. And they'll be given the tools and, you know, equipped to be successful. Um, but really where they're located, I kind of didn't care. Um, but yeah, I'm— it's really hard hiring. That's like one of the hardest things is hiring, hiring good people who are motivated by the right things and want to work hard, do a good job, but also see the rewards and benefits from that as well.

But also, I haven't got to know you a bit. Like, you have high standards, which is a good thing. Yeah, like, and I think that's, that's so honestly, like, with where you're at on your journey those— look, it's obvious advice, but like those first few hires are so critical. So like the time to have really, really high standards is now, and that's got to remain. Obviously it comes down to what you want, but I think, yeah, you've got to protect that at all costs. Yeah. Um, but look, thank you so much for joining me. I think honestly a really incredible first year. Like, I've loved getting to know you. I think there's loads here that people can learn from, and really excited to see how year 2 plays out. Thank you.