Sophie Allen - Doing a 180 from candidates to clients and becoming a BD Director in 7 years!

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz, and today I'm in another WeWork. Been in quite a few WeWorks doing these, um, and I'm joined by Sophie Allen, who is a business development director at Venatrix. And Venatrix are a specialist recruitment agency that places SDRs into SaaS companies. Sophie, thank you for joining me.

Thank you for having me.

Um, so obviously we were just having a bit of a chat before we started. Where I always like to start on this show is is how did, uh, Sophie Allen enter the lovely world of recruitment? Let's start there.

So I was living in Manchester in the summer of 2012, having just finished university there. Um, so started working in a burger bar in Manchester called Almost Famous, which is based in the Northern Quarter.

Okay, nice.

Um, and got to the point after about 3 months of doing that where I decided I wanted to do something that was a bit more regular hours, 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, office-based. And so applied for a couple of things online, got called by loads of recruiters, and one of them was a guy called George that used to work at a company called Celsius.

Okay.

Um, so he basically invited me to an assessment day, which was for a sales job for Virgin Media. Um, I had no idea what sales was, didn't really know what Virgin Media was, definitely didn't know what recruitment was. Yeah, pitched up to the assessment day, um, must have done something right, 'cause at the end of the day Virgin didn't choose me, but the founder, well, the director of Celsius at the time sat me down at the end of the day and said, "Have you ever thought about working in recruitment?" I said pretty much all the— No. Yeah, obviously not, said all the wrong things about what I was looking for in an opportunity.

Sure.

Was like really, really naive, didn't have a clue about the world of business. Went back in the next day for a final stage interview, Somehow convinced them to give me the job and then started working there pretty much the following week.

Awesome. So, what I'm always interested— so I know when I got into recruitment, I didn't end up— I didn't find myself in one of these assessment days. What was— do you have to do anything a bit interesting in this assessment day? Like, I think the one that I had on one of the episodes recently was, if you were in a hot air balloon, like, you need to sell yourself to everyone as to why you got to stay on it or something like that.

Yeah, I think it was a similar thing. It was such a long time ago now, But yeah, it was very much, um, did people get like hot as you were doing that sort of thing? Yeah, they did. And I couldn't believe that I was still there at the end of it because, like I said, I was completely clueless. And I remember there was another girl there who was also called Sophie who was like amazing on the day. So everything she did, I kept thinking in my head, right, I'm just going to copy what she's doing, and then hopefully I'm going to get through to the end.

Um, what— so always interested to hear people's thoughts, like, how— what was your perception of recruitment at that point? Like, obviously, as you said, it was a bit naive. Yeah. Um, obviously didn't— didn't obviously know you know, recruitment was an option. But like, what was your perception at that point?

Um, I don't think I had one, to be honest. I didn't have a clue what it was. A guy that I was living with at the time worked in recruitment.

Okay.

But I didn't really understand what his job was.

Yeah.

And then after I got the, um, offer of the final stage interview with Celsius, I went home and Googled what is recruitment, what do recruiters do, so that I'd actually have some answers to the questions.

And, um, just to sort of frame up then, so, so you ended up obviously joining Celsius. Yeah. And then you worked there for how How long?

Um, about 3 and a half years.

Okay, cool. So real solid first in, in recruitment, right?

Yes.

Yeah, so first job. So, and what did, um, Celsius do?

So they placed graduates into sales jobs within the tech sector.

Okay.

Um, and when I joined, they were based, uh, only in Manchester, and then, um, I moved to London with the company to help them open their office in London. Cool.

So always love talking to people about their, uh, first year in recruitment. Yeah, the early days, it's, uh, typically be the hardest. It's definitely really hard for me. So, um, what, what did you find yourself doing in those sort of, uh, first year or so? Was it, was you just sourcing candidates, or did you get straight on the BD side? What—

yeah, so when I first joined, my sole objective was to invite graduates to the assessment days that we were running. And so we ran an assessment day, I think it was every Wednesday. Um, oh sorry, we ran 2 assessment days a week actually, one in Manchester and then one later on in the South.

Okay.

Um, and we were given KPIs on a day-to-day basis based around, uh, confirming the number of candidates for the assessment day. Okay, so I was understanding what the different jobs we were recruiting for were and then trying to invite candidates essentially to come to the day.

And then, so then how did it, how did it typically work then? So like, um, so you was telling graduates to go to an assessment day, there was then— so then would the people, would the employers be there? Um, or was it, would you guys then obviously get people that you thought, well, actually these people are great, and then you'd speak to them about different companies?

Yeah, that's how it would work. Yeah, sometimes employers were there but very often back then.

So it's basically for you guys to go, right, so let's get 30, 50 people in the room.

Exactly.

And then work out, yeah, who's definitely up for this, who's not, who'd be great, who wouldn't be. And then what— and then you would then speak to clients about particular people.

So in the first year, I wouldn't speak to any of the clients. I just sometimes get the opportunity to like take feedback off a client about a candidate or something like that. Um, but it was predominantly inviting people to the assessment day and then once they've been successful prepping them for different interviews.

Yeah, okay. How, so how, how did you get paid then? Like, so I guess it would still be the same, it would just be once that candidate's placed?

Yeah, exactly.

Ah, okay. So you didn't— it wasn't incentivized to get people to the assessment center?

No, contrary to what a lot of people think about assessment days, no, that wasn't, um, we weren't incentivized like that.

It's really interesting, I think. What was, um, because I've had So I've been running— obviously I had the experience recently running an event for the podcast and been involved in this sort of similar scenario in my previous job. Um, like, what was the typical dropout rate with stuff like that? Was it quite high?

Um, well, with our assessment days now, I'd say it's a lot lower.

Yeah.

Um, back then it was probably a lot higher because we spent a lot of time convincing candidates that they wanted to work in sales.

Yeah.

Um, whereas now I think it's a much more, um, profession, career choice. Exactly, yeah. It's an industry that people actually want to get into once they leave university.

Yeah.

So back then I'd say it was probably a lot higher. I remember on one of the first assessment days that I'd invited candidates to, I had 7 dropouts in a row on the morning of the assessment day. Yeah.

So first, so the first year then, really focused on candidates, like, how was that experience for you then? Was it, was it difficult? Did you find it hard, or what were the challenges?

Yeah, I found it really hard, um, but I also got the buzz for it and started to love it pretty much straight away, really. Um, the way that that company was run was quite— I don't like the phrase boiler room, but it was more of a boiler room style sales environment. So it's really fast-paced, really KPI-driven. Yeah, lots of outbound activity, um, lots of managers listening in on your calls while you're having them and then deconstructing them once they've happened if they didn't go to plan. Um, so as tough as it was, I think it was a really great way to learn because you were fully in at the deep end.

Sure.

Um, And yeah, I think that's really helped me in my career.

Really?

Definitely.

Okay, so, um, let's talk a bit about obviously leading up to you, um, leaving to join Venetrix then. So year 2, year 3, yeah, what went on there then? So then, because I know obviously now your role is very much client-focused, so like when did this sort of— that— when did that transition happen?

So in the first few months of working at Celsius, I met Elaine, who is the founder of Venetrix.

Yeah.

Um, she was really impressive and we got on pretty much straight away.

Sure.

And she was in the— in a transitional period where she was moving to London to open that office for them.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, um, they basically asked me if I wanted the opportunity to move to London with her and help set up the office.

Okay.

And so I did that, and then within about a year and a half, my role changed from generating candidates to generating clients.

And did you want that? Um, did it just happen?

I actually really loved the candidate side of the job. Yeah, a lot of people I think really want to get out of that and do BD quite quickly, but I really loved it. Um, at the time I think we needed more people reaching out to clients in London.

Sure.

Um, and I remember Elaine just kind of sat me down and was like, right, we've got a new, um, business development manager. And I was like, okay, who is it? And she was like, it's you.

Okay.

Yeah. And then that was pretty much it.

Okay. So, and then so that was, um, so that was what, a year and a half in?

Yeah, pretty much.

So you moved to London a year and a half in?

Yeah, uh, no, I moved to London I think about 3 to 4 months in.

Oh, 3 to 4 months?

Yeah. And then got— and then my role changed.

How was that then for you personally then? So went to uni Manchester, living up there.

Yeah.

And then you just put all your eggs into like moving to London, recruitment career, like just proper went for it, like?

Yeah, just—

okay.

Did you have—

did you— where did you grow up?

Um, well, I was born in Liverpool, grew up in Papua New Guinea in West Africa.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay.

Then moved to Swansea in South Wales, then went to Manchester Uni, and then moved to London.

Wow.

Okay, so where's home for you then? Uh, now my parents live in Southport, which is just outside of Liverpool in the north.

So that's home?

Uh, yeah. I mean, I haven't got any friends there because I didn't grow up there, but all my family's northern, so they're all based.

Okay. So yeah, so like, just interesting because look, I've done that myself, and I think, uh, I don't know, I think it's— it can be quite ballsy, right? Like, I left— I hadn't left my friendship network and like stuff like that. So like, that can be quite difficult, can't it? So you just went all in, 3, 4 months in, as you said, went into recruitment, didn't even know that was an option, was working at a burger bar previously. So it's like, you just went— absolutely love that. Yeah.

And then moved to London. Uh, pretty much all of my friends were living in Australia after university, really, or hadn't quite moved to London yet. So it was quite daunting.

Yeah.

And I think London can feel really lonely when you first move here and you don't know anybody, and it's such a big city. Yeah.

The weirdest thing for me is like, I've mentioned a couple of times, but like you're surrounded by so many people.

Yeah.

But you can feel really lonely. Like you'll commute to work and you'll just see so many people, but you could not speak to someone all day. And like, it can be hard, can't it? Okay, so move to London. So you pretty much, safe to say then, you pretty much had to build up the London part of the business from scratch.

So we had clients that were, had offices in London that we worked with in the north. Um, and then yeah, we pretty much had to build it up from—

so yeah, what was— so you, you become the new business development manager then? What was the strategy like?

Um, well, back then we didn't— there weren't as many cool SaaS/technology companies in central London, so we spent a lot of time booking meetings with companies in the home counties and traveling to those meetings to pitch our services and then convincing graduates that wanted to live in London to go and work in places like Reading, because they were the places that we had jobs. Yeah. Um, so that— I think the strategy then was just, um, it wasn't as niche as Venatrix.

Yeah, sure.

So the strategy then was pretty much any company that's hiring for junior salespeople, you need to cold call the decision maker or try and get past the gatekeeper. Obviously there weren't as many sales tools then as there are now to get mobile numbers, um, and book meetings and go and pitch the services and convince them to give us a go, basically.

And you pretty much didn't ever You've been doing that ever since, pretty much?

Yeah, pretty much.

So let's just talk a bit about breaking that down a bit in terms of before you left Evententricks, because I think, as I was saying to you before, a lot of the topics that— quite common topic is business development.

Yeah.

So like, I mean, you hadn't— I mean, you just found yourself doing that role. So I'm sure you're like, well, okay, well, I'm gonna have to crack on and just do this. So cold calling, trying to build relationships, getting the opportunity to pitch services. Like, how challenging was that?

Um, I think it was really challenging, but again, I think that that shapes you into the salesperson that you become in the future because you're on the front line of the business and you're handling every single possible object— possible objection you could ever handle. Um, you're having to really kind of motivate yourself and use a lot of self-belief and resilience. So even though it's tough, I'm really glad I went through that because it's made me the salesperson, I guess. Yeah.

So how, how did you, um, with that then— so you mentioned their resilience, become more comfortable with rejection. And like, I remember my— yeah, I mean, when I, when I— so I started on the candidate side, and then when my boss said, ah, right, Hishem, I want you to start sort of trying to build up your own desk now, clients— like, absolutely shit my pants. Like, when I was trying to do BD for the first time, I found it really difficult. So how did you, like, did— how did you start cultivating that resilience? Did it happen quite naturally? Did you learn from Elaine? Or like, what did you start doing that really enabled you to get better at taking on that rejection?

So massively learnt from Elaine. She was really inspirational at the beginning of my career. She still is, but in learning how to do everything to do with recruitment. It was quite hardcore. So if I cold-called somebody and they told me to get lost or hung up on me, Elaine would be like, "Right, phone them back." And then I would literally have to phone the person back straight away and be like—

What would you say?

Something along the lines of like, so I understand that you just hung up on me. I can't remember exactly what I said, but just try and get them to— I think a lot of the techniques that we used back then were based around empathy. So, because our client base are typically salespeople, because they're leaders of sales teams that need to hire junior salespeople, a lot of it would be based around, if I was one of your graduate salespeople and somebody had just hung up the phone on me, what would you tell me to do?

Wow, okay. So, like, use that, yeah, use that to your advantage.

So, we did a lot of that.

Wow.

Yeah, and then you get to a point where you've been told to go away, you've been hung up on so many times that it doesn't affect you as much. And I think a big thing for me is not worrying about the outcome of a conversation, because if you go onto a call, you know, feeling worried about the person picking up the phone or what they're going to say once they find out it's a recruiter, that just ruins the call from the very beginning.

I think that's a really interesting insight, isn't it? Sort of not having an outcome attached to like what you want.

Yeah, exactly.

You know what I mean? Because then, yeah, you're right, you're getting your head— because you, you're wanting to know, or you're wanting to feel like, right, how, how can this call go as best as it can? Or how can it be successful? But you're better off not just having an outcome attached, aren't you?

Exactly.

Yeah, it's like, what for you, what, what do you— from your perspective, you could talk about now as well, but what, what in your, in your sort of, um, your perspective, like what makes a successful business development call, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, um, so I think first of all getting through to a decision maker. Yeah, because, um, and it might be different for different types of recruitment, but for us it's very driven around, um, having the conversation with the right person from the get-go.

Sure.

Um, so I think that's really important. I think, um, a really confident opening where you sound like really energetic. And I remember somebody said to me once that they really like dealing with salespeople that sound like they love their job. So sounding very positive.

That goes a long way, doesn't it? Yeah, like especially when you're interrupting people's day.

Exactly.

And like if you've got a bit of energy about you, enthusiasm, yeah, don't underestimate how important that is.

Yeah, I think not waffling, getting to the point quickly. I think you can build credibility by asking really good questions that aren't just, are you recruiting, based more around their business. And then not being scared to close it for commitment at the end. So making sure that—

what, so as like, as in that, so that could be anything from, let's book it, look, you've told me this, I think it's fair to say that I'm someone that could probably help you, let's book in a time to chat, or like actually—

yeah, yeah. Well, for us, if they've got a requirement, it's always based around a face-to-face meeting. So, okay, at the end, um, making sure that you agree a time and a date that they can meet you.

Nice, I like that. Okay. Cool. And I think for me, what I had to get better at, and I'm sure you've got this proper nailed down now, but sort of early days it can be quite difficult, but it's definitely worth just having like a bit of a solid spiel that you say, do you know what I mean? Like a solid personal pitch that if someone answers, it's like, bang, this is what I'm hitting them with.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And is that from your experience, like, I'm sure you've got that really nailed down now, is it typically like, look, this is, this is a cold call, we haven't spoken before, but typically I work with these types of business to help them this How— I don't know, like, is it typically you just want to say, these— this is the problem that I solve, is this of interest to you, or do you have this problem, sort of thing?

Exactly, yeah. And again, because what we do is so niche, it's typically based around placing SDRs into SaaS businesses. Um, and now because we've got so many clients in London, we can reference companies that are similar to the company that we're calling. Um, yeah, and, and also because the SaaS industry is quite connected, we can normally reference people that the person that we're calling is connected to on LinkedIn or knows.

Sure, sure. Okay, so, um, quick, uh, quick one then. So knowing what you know now, what, what would you say to Sophie, the new BDM manager? Yeah, just know what you know now. What would be some of the things that you'd communicate to that person or people early on, knowing what you know now? What would you say?

Um, I think probably so specifically around BD, to just know that not every call has to go well. I think I used to get really, um, like upset or stressed out if a call— if I knew a company was recruiting but then the call didn't go well and I couldn't get them to meet me because I feel like it had failed.

Yeah.

Um, but I think a big thing is understanding that not every call is going to go well and not every company is going to want to work with you, but that doesn't mean that you're not good at what you do. It's just the way that it is sometimes.

That's great.

Yes, I think— and I think people, especially, um, clients, really appreciate resilience in a salesperson or a recruiter. Sorry, not resilience, persistence. So remembering that just because they've said no the first time doesn't mean that that's it. That's it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a, on an episode recently, um, he's a business owner and he sort of told his, uh, trainees that when you get the first no, like, that's, that's actually when the fun starts. So like, as in, instead of just always just thinking about, like you're talking about there, always wanting every call to go perfectly, if you get that first no he sort of said to his guys that, well, normally it takes about 5 nos to get a yes. So like, that first no is just, okay, now on to the next no, and actually seek nos. Yeah, do you know what I mean? I think it's just a slight different way of looking at nos, which massively helps. Yeah, I mean, so that's interesting.

Yeah.

Um, so how— so, um, just to sort of wrap up your first, first part of recruitment career then, so like, so how did you do billions-wise and stuff? Like, the first, like, second, or going into your third year, like, how did that all go then?

Um, so off the top of my head, I can't remember the exact figures, which is probably really bad.

I'm gonna hold you against it.

Um, but I think, yeah, I think I did pretty well. I think I'd done around 250K by my second, third year.

Not fucking bad. That's great. You didn't know that? That's good. Thanks. So, okay, cool. So let's just talk about that for a sec. Um, yeah, so just two things before we talk about Venatrix and the journey there. Um, Firstly, like, so from— so you said there, so was that your third year, do you say?

Yeah.

Okay, cool. So I'm assuming before, did you break the 200K mark before the— in the second year or not?

I actually can't remember. I know that's really bad.

No, that's okay. So, so, um, the reason why I'm asking about this is something that I get quite a lot is Hishem, um, I've built 150K, 180K, under the 200K mark basically. I'd love you to talk to people about how they broke that 200K mark, because it can be quite— a lot of people may seem, one, it's not reachable. Yeah. Two, I've built 180K the last 3 years, where the fuck am I gonna get an extra 20, 50K from? So like, what, what was your journey with that? Like, how— yeah, how, how was your experience in breaking that?

So I think for me, I've always been very target-driven. So once I set my mind on doing something, sure, I I make sure I do it. And when we used to get given targets at Celsius, I remember I'd always have my target and then I'd have the target that I wanted to do.

Okay.

And I would always have like a bit of paper on my desk with the ultimate figure at the top of it at the beginning of each month. And then each time I made a placement, I would knock that money off, knock it off, knock it off until I got down to zero.

So you could always see that.

Yeah. So like having real short-term visible targets in place.

You always gave yourself like a, and you do that at the beginning of the year, I'm assuming, like yearly target and then you'd break that down.

Yeah.

Okay. How did that help you then?

Just— Because I think it reminds you every day of what you're, I think a big thing in recruitment sometimes is you can forget why you're doing what you're doing.

Yeah, for sure.

And when it gets tough, you can get kind of caught up in it and you can't really see the direction forward. So I think having that target next to you or somewhere where you can see it on a day-to-day basis reminds you that that's what you're working towards. And then every time you do play somebody and hit a bit of it off, it's like a little win.

Yeah, yeah. No, I like that. 'Cause I think, yeah. I mean, you hear that so much, don't you? Like breaking it down into, 'cause if you say, right, I'm gonna give myself a target of 300K. At the beginning you might say, fucking hell, how am I gonna do that? But when you realize it's, I don't know, however much that is on a monthly basis and you're breaking it down each month, that's really useful. So would you like review that on a monthly basis or? Really?

Yeah, definitely.

And did you, just out of interest, as you said, in recruitment you can quite quickly forget, you can find yourself forgetting why you're doing it.

Yeah.

What did you attach? Obviously, yeah, you got your monthly target, but did you attach anything to that? Like, I don't know, if I hit that, that means I can get this, or I don't know, did you, what was some of your whys around that?

I think at the beginning of my career, I just really liked being known as somebody that always hit their targets and always did well. Um, and we used to do— because the company was split over two locations, we used to do, um, quarterly meetups where we'd all present our figures.

Okay.

And I think that used to really motivate me because I— yeah, quite competitive, and I wouldn't want to be stood up there having not hit my target. Um, and that company employed lots of other really good recruiters. Um, yeah, so I never want to be at the bottom of the pack. No, exactly. I always wanted to be top of the pack. Um, and then I I also used to have like mini, um, monetary things that I was working towards. Like in my first year, I really wanted to buy a Prada handbag, so when I got my first big commission check, I went and bought that.

And then I like little things like that. Yeah, that does help.

Thailand or something. Yeah.

So like, would you say you're motivated by money? Yeah, really?

Definitely.

Okay, that's interesting.

Would you?

No, it's— no, it's just interesting. I've been more on my own sort of journey with that. I think I think the reason why, am I motivated by earning money? Yes. But I think if you say to me, right, Hishem, your target is 100K this year. Like for me to be really motivated by 100K, hitting 100K, I would need to understand personally what that's going to mean for me. I just had to really work this out for myself. So I have a target, first year in business, do 100K, right? And I made the decision not too long ago to invest in a coach and it's been great. And one of the things that we realized quite early on is, I'm just not someone that's money motivated. So for me, what I had to really break down was, right, so if I hit— if I make 100K in my first year, that means— what does that actually mean? Well, that means that I'm going to be able to really contribute to getting a place for me and my girlfriend, so we have our own place. And that means that I'm going to be able to take my parents away or whatever. So I need to— like, for me, I need to know what the fuck 100K means, because I could just look at it on a piece of paper and it wouldn't mean anything to me.

Yeah.

And also, I don't know if you've ever had this, but when I got the biggest paycheck I'd ever had in recruitment, I remember getting like— I was so excited by it. And then the money hit my account and I remember looking at it like I just didn't feel anything. I don't know if you ever had that, but I, I don't know, it was just a really interesting moment for me where I was like really motivated by money at that point. And when I actually got that, the money, I was like I just didn't feel any different. I don't know, it was just an interesting insight for me.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it's more the milestones that earning good money can help you achieve in your life as somebody who's in their mid to late 20s living in London, which is obviously really expensive.

Sure.

Um, so I think that's, that's what— where money, money has really motivated me in my career.

That's what I mean. It's like working out what those things are.

Yeah, exactly.

And that definitely helps when you've been told to do one like 50 times a day. Do you know what I mean? Remembering that, okay, well, actually, if I keep one more no, I could be one more no away from getting a yes, which means almost there. Yeah. So biggest learnings then in Celsius and your sort of time there, what would you say those were?

I think that in order to get the results, you have to put in the activity. Okay, um, which going back to what I said earlier about it being a very KPI-driven environment, I think that, um, in recruitment obviously a big part of it is your skill, um, and your attitude.

Sure.

But then I also think sometimes there is an element of luck.

Yeah.

And you've got to, um, give yourselves as many chances as possible to get that luck on a day-to-day basis.

Um, definitely agree, you make your own luck, I think.

Exactly. So I think that, yeah, just high volume of outbound activity gets results. And I think even now, if we're, you know, facing a week where we think, okay, maybe our client base looks like it could be drying up a little bit and we might need to find another company to invite to the assessment center, we just always take it completely back to basics and think, right, these are the companies we need to call, these are the number of decision makers we need to speak to to book this many meetings to get this many clients on board.

Yeah, I like that. Cool. So So Elaine went off to, um, start Venatrix.

Yeah, right.

And then you— just to set this in, so, um, and then you joined Venatrix, uh, a couple of months in. Yeah, then starting.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay. And then you've been here now for 4 and a bit years. Okay, cool. Um, and Venatrix now, so it's a bit more niche that what you do?

Yes.

Yeah.

So when we So when Venatrix started, Elaine and I were really conscious that we didn't want to create another version of the company that we'd worked for before.

Wanted to do it a bit different. I think everyone starts a recruitment business like that, right?

Exactly. Had the dream of we want to do something that's different and doesn't feel like just another recruitment company, because obviously it is a saturated industry.

Naturally.

And I think that we were quite fortunate in the sense that when we did start Venatrix was around the time when all of the West Coast American software companies started opening their doors in London, and lots of SaaS businesses were emerging that had VC funding.

It's a real growth opportunity.

Exactly. So when we first, when we first started company, I remember my first day, um, doing BD. I booked a meeting, um, with a guy called Mark Brighton. He won't mind me telling the story. He worked for a company called Impact Radius.

Okay.

Um, went to the meeting and we obviously had no clients, not really any candidates, managed to convince him to, um, agree to work with us at a really, really discounted fee.

Yeah.

And then he was basically looking for 3 people, um, and then we got loads of applications for the roles.

Yeah.

Um, so then Elaine and I broke it down and thought, right, why do all of the candidates want to work for this type of company specifically? And then we realized it was because it was a SaaS company that had funding that had a really cool office, lots of growth opportunities, could pay a high basic salary. So then we basically decided to form Venatrix on that.

On that, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, so because I've had a couple of questions recently on sort of how people have sort of identified, um, their niche, and that's quite interesting how that happens. So yeah, instead of deciding that this is going to be— this is what we're going to focus on, this is going to be our niche— you've actually took the context of, okay, wow, so we won this client. It's, um, clearly there's something that people are interested in here. Yeah, let's just focus on that.

Yeah.

So the focus since then has been— so SDR, so is that like entry-level sales positions within SaaS companies?

Exactly.

Yeah. And it's all grads?

Um, typically majority are grads, but we do place people with experience from time to time.

Really?

But it's very junior experience. So like they might have done a year in recruitment, for example, or a different type of sales.

So since then, so since then, um, that's what you've been focusing on, and your role has always been client development?

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Okay, cool. So how did you find transitioning then from— because Venatrix, I'm assuming at that point was a proper startup?

Yeah.

How's that for you?

I think there was like one other employee.

Um, so you, Elaine, one other person, starting from scratch, no candidates, clients?

Yeah, exactly.

What's that like?

Um, I think it was really exciting, to be honest.

Really?

Yeah. I've always had a lot of belief in Elaine, um, and me as a team, and I've kind of always known that whatever we put our minds to, we will be able to do it eventually, even though there will be hiccups along the way. So it just felt really exciting, um, and it was quite— it was quite, um, refreshing to actually start from scratch and kind think, right, we've got a blank canvas, we can make this whatever we want it to be. And again, because we decided that what we wanted to do was going to be quite niche, it made the actual process of doing business development—

yeah, I was going to say that myself—

yeah, quite focused because we were focused only looking at a specific type of company.

So let's just talk a bit about— just break down a bit about the sort of strategy and how you executed. So that happened quite organically, that experience that you just said? So then after that, when you're like, hang on a minute, this is a huge opportunity, like what, what was the client acquisition strategy out of interest?

Um, so as much as it was focused around, um, software companies, it was very much, um, just phone everyone.

And was it like, was it just London, uh, obviously London-based?

Um, yeah, just, just London-based.

And how did you get out, like how did you know who's like, as in, did you just go on LinkedIn, like, look at all the— I don't know, I'm sure you just did clever searches, but how did you get—

We did lots of like, um, fast growth company lists, um, and like the Deloitte Fast 50 and all that, like, just use all the resources out there. Exactly, yeah. And then, um, just tried to get people's mobile numbers.

Really?

Um, we used Lush. Yeah, it's mental, that's all in it. It's— yeah, it's really good. I get really mixed reviews about it, but I found it such a great tool for BD.

So anyway, it's been mentioned a couple of times on, um, the podcast now, but so Lush are quite— I never used it, but Lush are quite simply is a tool that can enable you to get people's numbers and you like— it's like a credit for— yeah, is that how it works?

Um, so you buy credits on a monthly basis, it's really not expensive at all, and then every time you request a mobile number it takes a credit off you.

And it's from a little—

so like I could be on the Sophie Allen's LinkedIn profile, it's a plugin, and could you be connected Uh, you don't need to be connected, but sometimes you will phone people and they're like, oh my God, this is the 10th time someone's phoned me today asking for this person. It's not their number.

How accurate is it?

Um, I would say probably 7 out of 10. Really? Correct.

It's not bad, is it? Yeah, that is mental.

But I was speaking to somebody about this the other day. I don't know if that's because the people that we're calling, because they're salespeople, are more likely to have their data online, whereas if you're targeting people just a bit more— who are already a bit more reluctant, yeah, then it might not be as accurate.

Okay, so, so yeah, so that's really interesting. So mapped out the market, essentially identified who are other companies like— do you say, um, Radius?

It's called Impact Radius.

Impact Radius, sorry.

Who—

what other businesses are like theirs, uh, theirs? And then you just started just smashing out the phone, basically?

Exactly, yeah. And our pitch very much then was, give us a chance.

Really?

Yeah, we won't let you down.

How did you find that? Because it's really interesting that— because I think I sit down with business owners and people like you, and I think, um, it's actually surprising how many people are willing to help at the early stage. People actually like— I found it quite a lot though, people like, well, actually, so if you know what, I'm happy to back you, you can help me. And it's interesting, like, how did you find that? Like, were people willing to give you a chance?

Um, yeah, they were. I think again, because the people that we're selling to are salespeople, they've 9 times out of 10, they've been in the position that you are, that we were in now, that we were in back then. So they appreciate the kind of tenacity and the desire to do a good job for a client, and they're inclined to give you a chance and help you.

So how was that first year then?

Um, all right, so it was actually really interesting because we managed to win a big contract with a company in New York.

Really?

Um, even though we'd never recruited in the US before, and we had a company that took on, I think it was 12 people from us in London, and then they said that they needed the same project delivering in New York and then in Boston.

Okay.

And we managed to— we were up against another one of our competitors, but we managed to win it. So that was pretty crazy because then before we knew it, we were on a plane to New York hoping that 40 graduates would turn up to an assessment center.

So I think I think that's one of the really cool and great things around joining the smaller growing businesses, opportunities like that.

Yeah.

Because shit like that can just happen, right?

Yeah.

And it's like, yeah, you have the opportunity to be agile and be like, you know what, yeah, we are actually, you know what, we'll do that. Yeah. Back ourselves to do that.

Yeah.

Um, okay, so for you, so the whole of, um, so the whole of time it's been your job to, uh, clients, build relationships, etc., right?

Yeah.

So how out of interest, because it's come up quite a few times now, let's just focus on the, the business development piece. Like, how— what's your mindset towards— like, if you win a new client relationship, you sign terms, is, is your mindset, right, okay, um, perfect, on to the next one? Or is it, right, the fun starts here, how can we maximize this client relationship?

So when we get the terms signed, um, We don't invoice any money until the candidate's actually started, so the kind of journey doesn't end there with the client. Yeah, but because the companies that we recruit for are growing really quickly, we always want to make sure that they're not just going to take one person from us, that they're going to use us as they continue to grow.

Yeah.

And so yeah, we try and do as much as we can to maximize every account and make every client feel really special and really enjoy working with us. Us.

And if you like, the reason I'm asking is because I think that's where, again, coming back to the question of, um, billings and maximizing those, it's come up quite a few times where typically, um, recruiters can be prone to like, right, perfect, won that client. Yeah, and they just get a new client, new client, new client. Whereas the advice has come up quite a lot where actually, if you've got a bank of 20, 30 clients, are you getting as much out of those as possible? Like, could you— so that ex-client client is paying you— last year paid us X, how can we get that into 50 grand rather than 20 grand?

You go, I mean, yeah. So I think, um, for us, because like I said, the company's growing quickly, normally they're taking on a lot more than just one person. Um, and because the— because we run an assessment day every Wednesday and our clients quite often will come to the assessment day, we get lots of touch points with them face to face.

Yeah.

Um, which really helps. And then in terms of maximizing each account. That's something that we're looking at doing this year in establishing our senior division a bit more, um, so that we can work on other vacancies that aren't just SDR.

Yes, like how you can expand the accounts basically rather than— Yeah, cool. What— and then your, your mindset towards clients now, like, um, had a chap on in the past that was really interested, and he was someone that was really good at business development, and his sort his sort of advice was like, typically a lot of recruiters may sort of view— I haven't gone into like how you structure a day, which we'll go into because it's really common question. But I think what was really interesting what he said was typically, let's say that in your Monday to Friday, your week, you've decided that on Tuesday 10 till 12 and Thursday 10 to 12 you're going to do business development, right? Um, and that your mindset going into those sessions is, right, I'm doing business development now. Yeah, whereas for him the mindset shift that he's had is quite, quite subtle, but it's just had a huge impact. Is for him you're always doing new business, you're always doing— obviously you're in just a fully business development role, but is that very much your mindset, that you're always doing— it's always new business, everything you're doing is like, right, new business, like business development?

Yeah, absolutely, definitely.

Okay, um, how do you structure your days now? Yeah, of interest, like, is it pretty rigid, or like, how do you typically structure your day?

So I would love to say that it's really rigid, but it's not. I try and do— yeah, it kind of all depends what's going on that week because we do assessment days and lots of events, and also we run sales training. The weeks are quite busy, and because what we do is so fast-paced in the sense that we're placing people that typically don't have jobs into entry-level jobs, so the sales cycles are quite short. The environment is quite reactive because there's, um, every day there's interview feedback to take, job offers to make, conversations.

Is it quite hard to like be like, right, 10 to 12, I'm doing this?

Yeah, but I'll always do— I've always got a list of companies that I'm chasing, and when I get in in the morning, the first thing that I'll do is dial out to all of those people to try and have as many conversations as I can. And then I do do a lot of stuff on LinkedIn as well.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah. Just a quick one, 'cause I wrote it down when I was preparing for this. Like, how have you found recruiting for grads? So I was in a session last week actually, and we were doing this sort of part of the exercise that I do with them thinking about their clients and candidates. And one of the challenges that they found their clients had that we were mapping out was the snowflake generation.

Yeah.

You heard that?

Yeah.

What, just out of interest, just curious, like what's, Obviously, look, we're both young people. Like, you went to uni. Like, how are you finding the grads? Or like, I don't know, how do you find typically the people that say that, oh, they're not as resilient and things like that? Like, what's been your experience?

Well, I think for us, when I first started doing this type of recruitment, like I said before, sales was a much less desired profession to get into. So people, it felt to me like people changed their minds a lot more and were a bit more flaky. Whereas now, I think because the jobs that we recruit recruit for are truly the best in the market if you want to get into— if you want to be an SDR and you want to work in SaaS. Um, I find the candidates more committed.

Fair enough.

I think, um, obviously they're young people and it can, it can be challenging because they can, you know, change their minds or not really know what they want to do. But then in the same breath, it's also really rewarding because you're genuinely helping people start their careers.

Yeah, I think that's a really cool And sort of what you've been involved in is, I'm sure there's loads of people that you've helped, I don't know, 4 years ago, 2 years ago, where they're now like sales managers or whatever. So that must be really cool to see from afar.

And I feel a bit sorry for them because I think they get a bad press with all this kind of snowflake generation stuff. I think it's just reflective of the world changing. Yeah, not necessarily.

You obviously can't generalize. There will be people that, yeah, exactly, maybe aren't as resilient, but yeah, definitely unfair to Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. Okay, cool. So last year then, so that was, so that's last year was your third or fourth year, was it?

In, at Benetrix. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Fourth year.

Yeah.

So how, let's break down how you've done then, 'cause you've had to build up this mark from scratch. It seems like you've been super proactive, recognized an opportunity early on, and then since then you've just been absolutely hammering it, building relationships, getting more credibility, having more success. So like, how did you do last year personally in terms of billing? Yes.

Um, so I did 560.

Okay.

Um, in total. And yeah, it was—

that's all perm, right?

Yeah.

Let's talk about it for a second.

That's like—

that's really good. What do you do the year before?

Oh God, I should have looked at this before. No, it was like 450 the year before.

So an extra 100K pretty much.

Yeah. Yeah, and then my target this year is 600.

So what did you do in the first year then, like 300 at Venatrix?

Yeah, like, uh, yeah, around that.

Really? Fucking hell, that's mental. So it's the reason why I'm reacting like that. So this is interesting, right? So I get to sit down with people like you on this podcast.

Yeah.

Now you, when, like, so obviously you get access and see billings within your four walls, right? You only get to see like what, like, what other people in your phone, like, so So I've had quite a few messages recently, like, Hishem, I built this much this year. Like, I know how that compares to like my peers, but like, do you have any idea how that compares with the market, stuff like that? So that the reason why I'm reacting like that is because I did a post not too long ago on sort of people asking me that question, just because I'm in this sort of unique position now. I get to sit down with people, you, and talk about how your success and stuff like that. And, um, I think it's really interesting that you can only— you only have access to what's within your four walls. And what came out of this post anyway in the comment section, stuff like that, I'm not a rector, right? So, but a lot of people said that if you're in Pernambuco and you're doing 200 plus, 250K plus, that scene is like a really, you've done really well, right? So let's just talk about that for a second because I think that's a lot of people, you saying that, you may not realize it, but a lot of people may listen to that and go, fucking hell, how has she done that? Like a lot of people may think that's not achievable, right? And I've quoted quite a few times now, but I think it's so powerful is like, again, coming back to like, you only have access to what's in your four walls. Like you can only be what you see.

Yeah.

So people around you might be doing those numbers and you're like, yeah, well, this is, I'm just competing. I don't wanna be at the bottom of the pack. Like this is what I've got to do to be at the top, right? So what do you think has really enabled you to just continue building on that? 'Cause that's really impressive. So like, how have you continued to increase that?

So I think, I think number one, our model really lends itself to being able to bill a lot of money because it's high volume, because it's high volume, and because we run an assessment center every single week. And because of where we're at as a business now, we've got so many clients that want access to our candidates. Yeah, each week we've got the opportunity to probably place about 20 jobs.

Yeah, it's not bad.

Yeah, which is So I think the model definitely really helps. Um, we also, uh, sponsor an event called Sales Confidence.

Yes.

Which you may—

oh yeah, that's what we love. Yeah, right.

Um, and that's really helped us establish our brand in the marketplace and also generate, uh, lots of clients. So I think that's definitely helped. Um, but then from a personal standpoint, I think, um, it goes back to that high volume of activity thing. Um, I think Making sure you're having lots of conversations on a day-to-day basis.

What's the, I feel like you know what's like a good number to aim for each day. Just break that down a bit, some more granular details. Like, if you were to look back on your day, what would make you feel like, you know what, I've had a really cracking day today? Like how many conversations and stuff you aim to have on a daily basis?

So again, it's different now than what it used to be because now as well, we get lots of inbound leads. So it's not as much of a, cold environment. But I think we used to target on something like 50 decision makers a week. Yeah.

So trying to get to speak to 50 decision makers.

To speak to, yeah, 10 decision makers a day.

Yeah, nice.

And then that could be like 50 calls to get 10 decision makers to speak to you.

If you're having 10 conversations a day with decision makers, you're gonna give yourself the best possible chance of making money there, aren't you? Okay.

Just to add a bit more to that point, I think also a big thing at Venatrix, and definitely something Ghislaine's taught me, is to never cut corners. So we have a process that feels quite rigid to candidates and clients sometimes, um, but it really works and we get everybody to buy into us and then stick to our process, and that gets the best results for the candidates, the clients, and then also for Venatrix.

Nice. So that process is, I'm sure, enables you to qualify people out.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

So that means that what you've got really slick at is, um, working and building relationships with people that value what you do and they're bought into the process, which means that more so you're going to make places.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Um, okay, how have you— I'm just looking at, um, a question here. Like, I feel like obviously with what you do every Wednesday, grads, um, like, would it be— I might just be making the wrong assumption here, but that a lot of people may, if you're in that sort of environment, like, could make that quite transactional or just keep it quite transactional. So like, how, how have you gone about ensuring that it isn't a transactional relationship with the people that you're working with?

With their candidates?

Yeah, candidates or clients.

Um, well, with the candidates, we train them once we've placed them, so we get the opportunity to see them throughout their first year.

Yeah.

And check in with them, go for drinks with them, offer them additional support. Um, we also see lots of our candidates and clients at the sales confidence event that I mentioned. Yeah, so that gives us the opportunity to have loads of FaceTime with them. And a lot of, a lot of my clients, for example, don't really feel like clients because we like WhatsApp each other all the time. Yeah, nice. Send like funny GIFs or whatever.

Yeah, so, so I'm not just speaking to Sophie the recruiter when I need 10 grads to— it's more than that, right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Um, okay, so I think you mentioned this to me at the Sales Confidence event actually, when we just spoke briefly and introduced introduced to you. But you mentioned now around inbound leads.

Yeah.

So I'm sure a lot of that's what, referrals?

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, obviously you guys do quite a bit on LinkedIn.

Yeah.

How impactful has that been?

Um, I think that's completely changed our business.

Really?

Yeah, 100%. Um, because I think that it gives you that human element where people don't just think you're a recruitment company. Um, like, we've got a lady called Tara Jackson that works at Benetrick Alex, and she is only about 2 years into her recruitment career, but when we go to events, people go up to her and they're like, "Oh my God, are you that girl from LinkedIn?" Because she does so much video content, so many pictures. And I think that's really helped because it, number one, it gets your content out there because people view it, share it, like it. But then it also enables people looking from the outside to get to know you and realize that that we're just people trying to sell stuff. Yeah, yeah.

And that sounds really simple, but obviously it's what I do now, but like 90% of recruiters, they don't look human online. Yeah, it's mental.

Um, but I think what we do as well has a very human element to it because it's placing graduates into their first job in sales companies, um, which, you know, is quite like an emotional decision for the company and for the client. Yeah, so I think that helps us as well.

Yeah, that's interesting. And then, so what about your own personal journey with that? Have you, have you, how have you found it putting loads of content out there? I didn't actually look at if that's something that you do quite a lot. Is that something you do personally quite a lot as well?

Um, yeah, I don't do it as much as the team that generate the candidates. Um, but yeah, it's definitely something that, um, you know, if we're trying to push a specific job or if I'm trying to, yeah, um, get more clients on board doing something like a video, you do feel quite exposed. And I think more people are doing it now. So I don't know if it's having as much impact as it did, you know, maybe a year or so ago.

It's definitely, I mean, for me, it's definitely not like, for me, it's that plus trying to have 10 conversations with decision makers a day. Do you know what I mean? It's definitely not, yeah, it's about combining them both.

Yeah.

But the great thing about that is if you are a bit more visible online, then you get through to that decision maker, there might be more of a chance that, oh, actually, yes, Sophie, I've seen some of your stuff. And that massively helps, right?

Yeah, exactly. And we get lots of inbound leads from companies that say they've seen various videos that the guys have done on LinkedIn.

Yeah.

Um, and they kind of get to know the personality of the company, and then they think, oh, we'd actually like to hire candidates that are similar to those people.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

So that really helps.

Um, so something I was just interested thinking about, um, asking you was, so obviously, as we know, you've been— you're completely focused on clients. So like, how How have you— so then I'm assuming then some of your colleagues just focus on candidates, like delivery, right? So it's a bit— so is that fair? It's a bit of like a 180 model, pretty much?

Um, yeah, so as people progress through Venetrix, they get given relationships to look after.

Okay, cool.

And then they start to learn how to do business development. But it's, um, yeah, it's mainly as a 180 model.

Yeah, nice. What, um, how have you found what it's like? So I've sat down with a lot of people that that are doing that really well or are thinking about it or recently transitioned to it. Yeah, so like how, what are some of the sort of learnings there on ensuring that that's really successful? So I guess what I'm trying to get at is you just delivering on clients, like it's gonna be really important that your guys deliver, right? So like how important is the communication internally if you're just dealing with the clients and then they're dealing with candidates for your clients, which that's your reputation, it's their reputations. Yeah, how have you found, like, how does that work and how, yeah?

Well, there's only 10 of us and we are in a WeWork office, which everyone knows aren't the biggest.

Yeah.

So we're pretty much around each other all day, every day. And we do, I'd say we have really good communication. So we do, whenever we get a new job on, we'll, whoever got the job will like pitch it to the team, get everybody really excited about it. We have lots of conversations where we go through every single job that we've got and every single candidate that we've got and make sure that we haven't missed any matches where we could be arranging interviews.

And then do you have like a conversation I recently had, like, again, back to you, you said you have a really strict process. They have that model as well. And they have like a really like strict process on like, if you take on a job and I sit down with the delivery person, like, I've got to have all the correct information. Like, so there's a really strict process in between you telling me about a job and me finding out about your job.

Yeah, exactly.

Is that pretty slick as well?

Yeah, it's really slick.

Yeah, so that's important, right?

Yeah.

Um, okay, cool. So a couple last things before we finish. Um, I'd love to get your thought, because obviously now, like, there's 10 of you, and I'm sure, as you said, that you're just saying there that how people can progress and they can get to do more business development, stuff like that. From your perspective now, fair to say that you're pretty seasoned business development person. Like, what are some of the sort I know we've spoken a bit about them earlier on, but sort of to round it all off really, like, what are some of the sort of common things you see in the people around you, or have seen, that you think prevent them from, um, doing really well at business development that you picked up on?

So I think it's really easy to feel like when something goes wrong it's the end of the world.

Yeah, so true.

Um, so I spend a lot of time saying to the team, um, or Elaine has said it to me many times as well, like, just remember that this is only a job. And if that client doesn't want to meet you, it doesn't matter. It's not life or death. So I think being able to like really lift yourself out of the situation and not let the hard times get you down is a big one. I think another thing, going back to the whole process thing, when things don't work out, when we break down, have they followed the process enough? Were they engaged with the decision maker? Did they ask all the right questions on the call? You'll often find when it does go wrong, something's been missed. So I think making sure that people stick to the formula that works for their business in achieving results.

I like that. So that leads me quite nicely into what I wanted to sort of get your thoughts on was, so obviously your first point there around what you're talking about there is sort of mindset perspective and getting better at understanding that, okay, that was just a no, it's not the end of the world. How, like, is it fair to say that obviously how— what's your journey been with sort of mindset, really? Because recruitment's difficult, right?

Yeah.

Especially in doing what you're doing, just obviously, um, building relationships, doing a lot of that sometimes for the first time. Like, how have you become better at managing your own sort of stress and mentality and ensuring you're always sort of at top performance?

So I think in the first few years it didn't really affect me because it was very much a new experience. Yeah, it was very exciting and kind of maybe I felt like I was on a bit of a roll with it. But definitely when we started Venatrix and, um, I felt a lot of responsibility to generate all these clients and to keep the business kind of ticking along, it— I definitely let it get to me and had lots of moments where I felt really stressed, um, sometimes felt like it was too much and maybe, you know, I didn't know if I could do it anymore kind of thing. Um, but I think you the more difficult times you go to, the more easy it is to kind of brush them off because you've been through that situation before. And I think just remembering, sorry to repeat myself, but it is just a job and no one's gonna die.

No, I know it sounds like, I get that, I think that's a completely, that is a great way to think about it sometimes. It's like, right, okay, I've had a shit day today, but like, yeah, as you said, all the people I care about are still alive. Like, like, you know what I mean? And you can— I think that is a good place to go sometimes when, yeah, you feel like, oh my God, I'm not sure I could do this anymore.

Like, yeah, um, obviously if you're consistently not hitting your target, then maybe you need to ask yourself, is it the right job for you? But if you, you know, if you have a bad day, a bad week, bad month, I'm sure there's a lot worse things going on in the world that you can be worrying about than that.

Yeah, because I always, um— and then also, just, just to sort of touch on that, is, is that sort of some of the things you said? So one of the questions that I'm looking at is sort of, yeah, mental health, stress within recruitment, managing, especially like from your perspective now you're quite experienced. As you said, you've probably had quite a few moments where like, this is tough, but now you can, you know, you've got through them.

Yeah.

Whereas people quite early on are more junior, they haven't got that to lean on, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So like, are you just talking, are you talking to people about, look, I've been in your shoes, it is going to be okay, and sort of have those sorts of conversations with people?

Yeah, definitely. We have a phrase at Benetrix that one of my colleagues George always says we go again. So if something bad happens, we just go, we go again, and then we just kind of move on.

That's awesome, I love that. Um, cool. So, um, I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions on resilience.

Yeah.

Um, because of the event that I have coming up. But before I do, um, how— obviously you've been in recruitment now, I mean, you're going towards like a decade, right?

Uh, a bit less, but yeah, but as you're like going towards it, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So How, how do you see recruitment changing from your perspective? Like, what, what do you find— how do you think recruitment is changing, or how do you think recruitment is going to look in the next couple of years, out of interest?

So I think a great thing about working in recruitment is that companies are always going to need to hire good people.

Sure.

Um, and I think a lot of people say like, oh, are you worried that the robots are going to take over and people aren't going to need recruiters anymore? But I think it is a very human form of sales, for sure. And because it's a service-based industry, I think that people are always going to want those person-to-person interactions. And so I think it will just get bigger and better, to be honest.

I think so. Um, okay, cool. So a couple of questions on resilience, um, and then we'll finish. It's gone quite quick, isn't it?

Yeah.

So, um, Sophie, what, what does resilience and recruitment mean be?

Not worrying about the outcome.

I like that. How, how has the importance or need for resilience changed as the industry's evolved?

What do you mean?

So how, how has one, the importance of resilience, um, or need for resilience, yeah, changed as the industry has changed? It's quite different now. Right, from maybe when you started. So I guess what I'm trying to just ask you is, um, how do you think— has resilience changed, or the need for resilience changed, or has the type of resilience changed as things have changed?

Um, I don't think so, to be honest.

Okay.

I think, um, you're always gonna need resilience in any type of sales role, um, and maybe it's different types of resilience as industries change, but I think in— yeah, I don't think it has changed that much.

Okay. And what, what can people do themselves to instill, instill resilience in them or their teams?

Um, so I think, I think it's really important, like I said, to remember that it's just a job, not be too worried about the outcome all of the time. And then I think you're more resilient in work when you look after yourself outside of work as well because it puts you in a better mental state for the day. And then when the bad things happen, they don't hit you as hard. So, uh, not to sound like a cliché, but things like getting lots of sleep, going to the gym, um, having a healthy lifestyle outside of work really help me with my, like, mental state and my attitude when I'm in work.

Nice. Awesome. Love that. So, uh, before I ask you the final question, what, what is Sophie excited about in 2020 and beyond? What do you want to shout about? What are you excited about, mate?

So I'm really excited about our partnership with Sales Confidence.

Yeah.

Um, because like I said, that's helped us generate a lot of clients. Um, and we sponsor the event now, so we, um, get to go to all of the events, have our name out there, we get shoutouts. Um, yeah, you definitely got a shoutout from clients, from the guy that runs it. Yeah, so that's always really exciting. Um, I'm really excited about Venatrix establishing its senior division so that we can capitalize even more on our relationships.

Are you going to be actively involved in that?

Um, yeah, definitely.

Okay, cool.

And we are hiring for people with recruitment experience at the moment, just to drop that in there.

Yeah, of course.

Um, so yeah, definitely really excited about that. Um, and then I think again excited about the unknown because it's a startup and because, um, things happen and we can take on pretty much any challenge. I'm excited for the things that we don't— haven't planned for that are going to happen this year.

Yeah. Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, I think you've been on an awesome journey so far, so it's good. Excited to see how it all evolves. Um, so look, final question. Um, you can answer this question with a phrase, a word, sentence, whatever comes to mind. But, um, if Sophie could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen, they'd take on your advice, they'd implement it tomorrow, what would you say to the people?

It's a tough job, um, but somebody's got to do it.

Love that. So if it's been a pleasure, thank you.

Thank you very much.