Susan Barrance The power of building out core accounts which enabled her to bill £450,000 in a year

Welcome to the Recruitment Rollercoaster podcast. My name is Hishem Azzouz. Today I'm joined by Susan Barrance, who is a senior consultant at Signify Technology, who are a specialist tech recruitment agency. Susan works in a team of 5 and has been at Signify for coming up to 3 years. Susan, thank you for joining me.

Hello, thanks so much for having me on.

How are you?

Very privileged. Yeah, I'm good. I'm home on my own for another day.

So we spoke about this, didn't we? Obviously you live on your own in the flat. Yeah, honestly, that I would find that so tough. But obviously, have you worked out who's going to be in your social bubble and who you can have over, or—

Yeah, it's going to have to be my mum and dad. I just need a hug from my mum, man. That's, that's going to definitely be my social bubble.

Yeah, cool. Um, well, look, so as I was telling you before we started this, where I always like to start on this show is how you got into recruitment. But as you'll know, obviously we had Ryan Adams on, obviously your boss and the founder at Signify.

The legend.

Yeah, the legend. I mean, yes, I mean, his story has been— it's very quickly become the most listened to podcast on here. So I think a lot of people will be really interested to hear sort of your journey in working for a leader like that. So, but let's start. How, because obviously you working at Signify, that has been your first and only recruitment job, right? Yeah. So how did Susan enter the world of recruitment?

I feel like everyone says this, but they kind of fell into it. That's kind of the role, isn't it? I say I didn't really fall into recruitment. I fell into estate agency, which I feel like a lot of people start off with. So, was a teenager working in a toy shop, ended up managing a couple over a couple of towns, and then that toy shop didn't work out, and somebody just went to me, do you know what, I think you'd be quite good at estate agency. I used to do it, and you'd probably be good at it because you're good at talking to people. So that was it. I was like 19 at the time, didn't have any qualifications or anything, so applied for a few estate agencies, ended up getting ended up getting a job for a company called Cubitt and West, really, really great company. And they introduced me to the world of sales, you know, ABC, always be closing, objection handling, all of that. I went for like 2 weeks rigorous training in the classroom. So that was my entry into sales. Really enjoyed that job. It was hard, like the first 6 months I think I cried every day because I had no idea what I was doing. What did you do? Was it lettings? And I did sales. So I went straight into sales. I learned a lot there, like a lot about resilience and yeah, just going through sort of, I worked in not a very high-performing office, so it was a struggle just to do okay there. But had a really good team, really, really good manager, really, really good area manager as well. But what happened there was I was there for about 2 years, but everyone in my family has gone off and gone traveling and gone like done the whole Asia, Australia thing. And so it was like in my destiny to go traveling. So at the age of like 21, I said I was going to leave Cuban West and go traveling. So I was away for like 4 years. And really, yeah, I was away. I was in Australia, I was in New Zealand, Philippines, like Southeast Asia. Yeah, I was gone for quite some time. And when I first started looking for a job, the only people that would come back to me were sales companies, and I was like, I'm not a salesperson, I don't know where this has come from, why do people want me for sales jobs? But it just ended up that I just, every city I went to, I got like proper commission-based cold call sales jobs. Like, every city I was in, I would get a job like selling funeral insurance, car insurance, conference seats, like all of that, like proper just picking up the phone and being told to F off every single day. And I did that for like 4 years straight, just in each city I was in. And I kind of built up more sales then. And then I was in Sydney and a recruitment company reached out to me. And at the time, I kind of knew what recruitment was because my best friend Jack, who is actually my manager at Signify, believe it or not, had been a recruiter since he was like 18. He always had loads of money, like had a nice flat. And I was like, I wanna be successful like Jack. So I got offered a job in Sydney by a recruitment company, but I was coming home, like, soon after that. So as soon as I got home, knew I was home for good, I was like, right, I want to be in recruitment, definitely want to do it. Spoke to Jack about it, and at that point he'd been at Signify for just under a year, and I think he was a bit hesitant about me working there. Yeah, his fiancée is my best friend, he's been my best friend since we were like 15.

You still mates?

Oh, sometimes. So at the time, he was advising me on what to do with recruitment. I think in the back of his head, he kind of wanted to see if I could work at Signify but didn't really want to offer it. He wasn't sure. So I interviewed at a few places, and then in the end, I was like, do you think I could maybe speak to your boss about a job there? And then we had a long chat about it, like what it would be like to work with your best friend in like a high-pressure sales environment. Eventually he was like, yeah, cool, have a chat with Ryan. And I had a really good chat with Ryan, like fell in love with Ryan, fell in love with what they were doing, the passion behind everyone. It was a small team then and I loved every single one of them. And that was it, then I was in. I even had to have that conversation with Ryan at the start, like he was like, how are you going to be working so close with your best friend? And he's like, is it going to affect you? And I was like, right, we've had a good chat, I respect Jack, he respects me, so how many people are in the company when you joined? Uh, I was the 6th person to join the company.

Okay, and then where, where are you guys at now?

Uh, we are at 32, I believe, right now.

Okay, so it's been an interesting journey then, right?

Yeah, really, really interesting. It's been a lot of fun, a lot of fun.

So, I mean, clearly had this sort of grounding of resilience, sales, all that. So, I mean, you'd like to think, you'd like to think obviously be pretty confident backing yourself in that first year, but what went on in that? So just quickly, obviously, I think what's really unique about Signify is that you guys do like, you all do like a super, super niche vertical, don't you?

Yeah.

And that's the, is it Scala, right?

Scala, yeah. So that's, that's all we do. The vision for Ryan was, I might have mentioned in this podcast, but the vision was if you could know your one market inside out, back to front, every single person, then you're gonna be able to deliver the best service possible 'cause you know it all inside out. And there's gonna be no, there's gonna be nothing that you don't know. So that was a vision and it just worked really, really well. And I think I'm very, very lucky for my first recruitment job to have been with Signify. The branding and what the vision, what we had behind the company, like the mission of the company, is just so easy to believe in, which I think has just made the job easier to do. You genuinely believe in what you do.

So what did that first year look like then, Susan? What went on? So did you, what was the structure? Was you going into a contract team? Was it perm?

Yeah, so I've been on contract team from the start. So Jack has been a contract biller for his whole life, and I obviously went under his wing. He took me under his wing, And I joined the contract team, then there was just 3 of us. And I was like the resourcer for the team. So I just started off like a little bit else. Yeah, just in delivery. And I had like, really, I say it's fluke. I said it was fluke to start with, but Ryan keeps telling me, you can't say it's fluke. But I had a really, really, really good first few months in the job, like crazy good. I started in August, and by the end of the year, I just had an amazing first 4 months. And I was flying. I was like, this is amazing. Loving life.

Completed it.

Yeah, I was like, sweet! I finished in like the top 3 in the company. I was like, amazing! Got a little award. And then, and then because I did so well and I brought on a couple of clients, they promoted me to consultant quite quickly. So after 4 months, I got promoted to consultant, which was like full 360. And that hit quite hard, I think. I think although I'd done really well and I'd brought on clients, I was then doing both parts of the job, whereas like before I was just really sourcing and the roles I got on had just come by chance and then all of a sudden it was splitting your day, like having to do everything and I went from doing really well and then I had a couple of really rough months, I just didn't achieve anything and I was like, oh, it's beginner's luck, I've really, really fouled it. So then I kind of see it separately, like my first 4 months from August to December was like my trial period, I see it, and I happened to do really well and then I see my first real full year Is that like January to December?

After that period, yeah. So just quick, just quickly, so those first 4 months, let's just think about that for a sec. So obviously you, how did you go about, what was your mindset towards learning about this sector niche? Because obviously you've never done that before. What was your mindset and how did you approach that?

I just listened to everything that was going on around me. I actually had to do 4 weeks of shadowing before they let me on the phones. So I did 4 weeks of literally just sitting behind each of the guys and just listening to what they were doing and watching what they were doing and making notes. And I'm telling you now, 4 weeks of shadowing and not actually doing anything is pretty rough. It used to get to the point where I'd be sitting there thinking, I'm gonna fall asleep just sat here because you're not doing anything. But Ryan obviously had a plan and it worked out because I just, I must have taken everything in and I'd kept rewriting over and over again what the texts were, what they meant. You know, like when you're studying for an exam and you write stuff over and over again and then you highlight it and then you write it again and highlight it. So I think I just listened and took it all in. And every time I got off a call, every time I finished, I'd be like, right, what could I have done differently? What wasn't right about that? To the point where I was constantly asking questions and constantly asking people to critique what I'd done.

Really? And that's really interesting. So what, just out of interest then, what was the most common thing that you sort of went, ended up improving on, or sort of feedback you got? Because I think that, I mean, first off, what's great about that is that you was willing to take the feedback. Because I think that can be quite— not everyone's up for that.

I mean, don't get me wrong, at some points in my head I'll be like I didn't do that badly, did I? But I think the main thing came when I started was to slow down what I was doing and then to listen. Like, that was the two things, like slow down the qualification.

Like when you're talking and stuff?

Yeah, like instead of just ticking off a list of questions, slow down what you're doing and listen to what is being said to you. Because as much as you can ask a question, if you're not listening to the answers, you're not getting your qualification, you're just ticking some boxes. And it would be a case of, I'd get off the phone and I'd say this, and then Jack or Charlie in my team would say, right, right, so what does he want to do with this? Where does he want to be? Like, they'll ask me questions and I wouldn't have the answers because I hadn't done the qualification properly. So they'd be like, right, get back on the phone.

Oh, I hate that. I hate that.

There's been times where I probably got back on the phone 3 or 4 times in the same 10 minutes with the same person.

There's nothing worse than, like, getting off a call thinking, absolutely nailed that, and then your manager or boss, whatever, be like, right, Susan, tell me about this. And you'd be like, fr. Yeah, you gotta get back in the call. Yeah, honestly, I'm with you on that.

It'd be like something really simple, like, when can he start? And you'd be like, uh, I don't know, but he's really good.

Yeah, no, I think, um, I think it's at that beginning you want to just, I don't know, yeah, get through things. And I think, yeah, I, I def— I got that advice as well, sort of stop speaking too quickly and trying to rush things, but you just want to just get more and more under your belt. But I love that. Well, what I love about that is, and what people can take away from that, is like the quicker that you're willing to— because I'd like to think, Susan, that you're 3 years in and you're still open for someone to go, Susan, I think you could have done that better.

I ask questions all day because everyone says the same, like work smart and not hard. I think you should do both, but I work smart, like the people around me are really successful. So why not ask them what they're doing all day, every day? Because then I'm just taking what they're doing and I can make that my success rather than having to come up with it all on my own.

Yeah, no, and I love that. And I think being encouraged and then sort of having it instilled in you early on to be like, Susan, how can I improve that? What could I do? Blah, blah, blah. Make that okay and make that normal is exactly what you should do. I think that's awesome. So I think that it happens quite a lot where people can— I've had it, it's been said so many times on this podcast where someone's had a really good couple of first 3, 4 months and then they just have a really rough next couple of months, right? But I think, so like, what was that experience like? Because I know so many people sort of has gone through that. So I guess, what, what, how do you sort of cope with the self-doubt? Because that's what happens, right? Because you'd be really confident candidate, nailed it, now I'm doing clients. Like, what was the sort of self-dialogue to make sure that you carried on and didn't quit?

I'd say at first I didn't cope with it very well, not at all.

Why?

What was it? I'd be confident in the office, but then you go home, you'd be like, oh, I've just, I've lost it. Like, maybe I didn't have it all along. Like, as much as you can be a confident person, if you've done so well and then you didn't, you're like, oh, maybe it was just luck. So yeah, probably didn't cope very well with it. Not in the first month or so, because I was like, why isn't anything turning around? But I suppose I was very lucky that the team I was in and Ryan were so like, this happens, like, this is the industry, like, it's not you, it is the industry, just keep going and doing what you're doing. So I did what they said, would just keep going, but the self-doubt was still there. I didn't, I mean, I still doubted myself, but I just kept doing what they told me to do because like I said before, they were successful, so if I do what they say, then eventually I'll be successful. So I'd say that the self-doubt never went at all. I felt horrendous, like you feel really bad about yourself all the time, but I just stuck with what they told me to do and keep doing it, and then eventually—

trusted what they said, trusted the process—

and eventually it turned around. So it was basically coming to the office pretending I was okay, just doing what they do, and then going home and dealing with it when you're at home on your own. And then eventually it turned around.

How long was that period, do you think? Was it roughly before things started to really click and you really started to build a bit of momentum?

I think it was— I had 2 really rough months, like January, February, and then March started to turn around, and then I started getting a bit of consistency. And then for that year, I was like, I was on target for most of the year. I wasn't like excelling, I wasn't doing crazy well, but I hit my target. So I was like, I was at a point where I needed to be, I wasn't doing crazy well, so there was room for improvement. I like getting the consistency and being where I needed to be. I just kept going because I was like, at least I'm doing something right.

So how did you finish your first year then?

I think I finished, in the company-wise, I think I was 5th out of about 15, out of the company-wise, whereas the year before I'd finished 3rd. In like kind of billings for the year. I don't know if you want numbers.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Give us, we're dying to know, come on.

Yeah, I think my first year I finished on just under 200K my first year.

Yeah, not bad, is it, for the first year?

Yeah, but in my first 4 months the year before, I'd finished on 130K. Really? So in like 4 months, I'd gone from like, wow, if I could do that in 4 months, next month I'm gonna do some crazy numbers. And then I didn't do much more. So yeah, I think just under 200K. And that kept me on, I was on target for the year basically.

Yeah, that's awesome. So, obviously being a, so I was a perm recruiter, so I guess from what I understand is for you it was all about get, obviously the candidate side, but, and then it's the client side that's a bit, obviously they're just as challenging, right? But obviously it's, you need to be consistently getting new projects on And then obviously the candidate piece, I feel like it's a bit easier because it's just more free movement, right? Compared to perm. So I guess what— and so the business development piece is something that always people want to know about. So I guess what's been your journey with getting prospects, winning projects, business development as a contract recruiter during that period? What was that like?

I think everyone has their own style of BD, and I think in the kind of the contract market is very much a lead-driven environment. Like, contracts are fast-moving, it's constantly going. So, I kind of don't work on that level. A lot of the, everyone I know that's contract builder is so like lead-heavy. I still do everything on lead generation and so on, but my success has come from literally just building relationships. So, getting a client and then expanding in that client as far and wide as I can by building a good relationship with them. So, just having one or two really big accounts at any one time and just making sure that you are fully delivering on them so you can expand outwards. I feel like that's probably the way that I do things and that's the way that I've been more successful is by nurturing what I have rather than constantly looking for one little bit here and there. So yeah, my advice for anyone is always nurture the strong relations you've got, whether it's contract or candidate. If you are genuinely a friend of theirs and genuinely have built rapport and you get on, then at some point they are going to be able to help you out with introducing you to a project.

Yeah, no, I love that because I think it's so easy to get caught up in need new business, new job, new project, and it's come up quite a lot recently that actually So like you just said, well, actually, instead of having that mindset, if I have 2, 3, 4 good solid big accounts that I can do, I don't know, 50, 80, whatever K with each, then that's a good position to be in, right? So I guess let's talk about that for a second because I think a lot of people listening will be more of new job, new business, and always approaching like that, right? And So I guess let's just talk about what's been Susan's approach over the last 3 years on expanding those accounts, because I think that's where some people may not know or understand or have much experience in actually doing. So I guess it might have happened naturally or whatever, but I guess sort of thinking now in the last 3 years when you have done it, and you put that down to quite a big part of you being successful with business development, how have you gone about expanding accounts?

I think the first thing to do is when you get on a new role or you get on a new client, they've got several roles, just deliver as best you can on what they've given you. And like, I think a lot of people try to over-promise because they wanna, they want to be like, and then they think that they can deliver. I would never over-promise and under-deliver because We all know recruitment has got a stigma around it, it does, and if you're constantly over-promising and under-delivering, you're kind of playing into that stigma a little bit. So, I would just be truthful, like, this is what I can actually do for you, and if it doesn't match up with their expectations, that's where becoming a consultant comes in. You consult them as to why what you do won't match their expectations, but this is what you can do and it will maybe get the same result, maybe at different timescale or different kind of candidate. So that's where I think becoming a consultant comes in because you can't— the client is going to want one thing. If you overpromise and you can't actually do that, then they're not going to work with you again. But if you can come up with a solution that you know you're going to be able to achieve for them and actually still help them achieve what they need on a business side of things, then once you've done that, you can then very easily say, okay, do you know anyone else I can also offer this help to? Is it everybody else in your company?

So the first part is make sure you can deliver and do deliver, right? No, I love that. And I think what this has come up on before with a chap, James Dean, where like you go through that process early on of like not being a yes man, you know what I mean? And like, because it's so easy to like, you've got that client going, yes Susan, so I've got this requirement, blah blah blah, and you're knowing at the back of your head there's no way that he's gonna be able to get this or she's gonna be able to get this. And you just get better actually, as you said, saying no, but also being a consultant and going, well, look, actually, this is what I'd probably say. And if that means you don't get the job, that's actually probably a good thing. But what, as you said, it's them being a consultant. So I think what you just said there is first things first, don't forget that, make sure that you leave a good impression, right? And you actually deliver. Yeah. So if I've done that, like, obviously besides just the classic, like, who else can I help, blah, blah, blah, I don't know, what have you found works in terms of, like, I don't know, have you got these people then to introduce you to other people in the business, or have you then just sort of used them to map out sort of other parts of the business, and then you're calling them and going, hey, look, we haven't spoken before, but I delivered with such and such on this project, I don't know, what have you found really works?

I'd say I'd do a bit of both. So it all depends on how I feel my relationship is with that person, whether it's client or candidate, because both are just as able to get you into a project, right? If you've got a candidate that is a strong contractor, has been on that team for 10 months and you've worked with them previously, if they are doing well in their job, their opinion is gonna count. So I'd say I'd do it both. The first, first step I'll go to is ask them directly, do you know anybody else, can you introduce me? If it's a really large global company, then I will, and I know my relationship with who I'm currently working with is strong, I will do the work myself. I will go out, introduce myself to other client, other pt, hiring managers within the same company, explain that I'm already working with a hiring manager, explain what I've already done for them, and I already know that that person when asked, will be happy to vouch for me and be a referral. So instead of having them to do the legwork, you do the legwork. You introduce yourself to all the other hiring managers within the company that you want to help, and then all you have to do is very quickly link them up and give them a referral. So it's almost so they're not having to do it. They don't feel like they're put out by having to do something for you. You've already done the legwork. They just have to give the referral.

Nice, I like that. And then have you got better at sort of I guess, identifying who could be a big account, you know what I mean? Because I feel like there's obviously an element of a bit of a plan or strategy there. I don't know if you've got better at sort of, obviously, as you've got to know your market, part of your exercise or part of your strategy, if you have one, is mapping out, right, so I've got these big accounts at the moment, who else could be a client like that? I don't know, how have you gone about sort of giving yourself the best possible chance of that first sort of impression that you give ends up being a bigger account?

I think it's more about the market that you're mapping. Everybody knows like the big accounts, like the banks, the big media companies, they know them all, but we all know that they have master vendors and there's so much work to get through and they don't ever really appreciate your service because they've already got internal, so although they are good accounts to crack if you can, fantastic, but My strategy is I just look for startups that have had funding.

High growth, nice.

Has recently had funding, they've already got a vision of what their roadmap's going to be, they already know what products they need to build, that's why they've gone to get the funding. All of a sudden they've got the funding, they've got what they need to be built, so they're going to want contractors on site ready to work. Like, it's quite simple. So they already know what they're doing, they already know what they're building, now they've got the money to do it, quick, get people on site as quick as possible. And that's usually contractors.

So you on the So is it part of your week that you'll be reading industry stuff and you get stuff emailed into your inbox just to keep an actual eye on this?

Yeah, like I look at, um, uh, oh my God, it's gone from my head.

That's okay. But you, you, you actually, you actually read industry?

Yeah, industries. And I do a lot of, I'll literally very simply just type into Google top 10 tech companies funding this month and somebody would have written a blog somewhere. It's that simple. Just tech companies funding UK.

And then when you find these companies, are you literally then calling them going, "Hey, seen that you recently got funding, da da da." Like, is that— do you also then use that as part of the context as to why you're reaching out?

Yeah, I think it will— I know it sounds silly, but sometimes when I look at somebody's profile on LinkedIn and who they are, I kind of try and get a feeling for how they would like to be approached, even though that's completely on my own judgment and sometimes it probably backfires. But I think a look at kind of where they are in the company, whether they want like a soft approach, just an introduction and what we are, what we deliver, or whether it's very much, this is a candidate, do you want them? So that's kind of, I kind of have to figure out myself which way I'm going to go in, or try and keep getting in touch with people that are already working there, go in, speak to them as though they're candidates and just get a feel for whether the project's working and try and get info that way as who's the right person to speak to. And then I always just refer back and say, I've actually spoke to somebody in your network, they've mentioned that you are hiring. Yeah, I love that.

So, okay, so full year of 360 then. So was that when you— is that when you finished just under 200K you said? Is that—

was that my first full year? Yeah, 360. Yeah, as a consultant. Yeah.

And then obviously, and then this, and then, so then, and then, and then have you had another full year then, or is that this year?

Yeah, so that was last year. Last year, so I did full year as a consultant, and then at December I got promoted to senior, and then my last year was full year as a senior last year before all this shit went down, basically. Yeah, yeah, before.

So how did that year look, just to context in terms of billings, and then we can talk a bit about where— yeah, let's talk about that.

Um, I finished on £460k last year.

Fucking hell. Right, so let's say that that's— so the reason why let's just put the number aside for a second. The reason why that's important is not the actual number itself. It's more like, if you think about sort of people listening, Susan, people want to know that that's actually possible to go from like where you was, which was just under 200K, to then actually hear you say, well, actually, I actually doubled my billings and more. People just are so interested in understanding, well, what the hell did you do differently? Do you know what I mean? So that's why it's just important to— it just helps with context, right?

Yeah.

So let's talk about that for a sec. So firstly, so business development, clients, projects would have been key to that, right? So what did you do differently, or like, did you crack some big accounts, whatever it may be? But like, what changed, or what did you do differently that you think enabled you to produce those results on the, on the business development side first? What changed there?

So the, the, uh, The business development stuff, like having a few big accounts, like, go on, happened towards, sorry, the end of my first year, bringing them on, and that was when I'd built up my network. I built up my rapport, I built up my network, I had loads of contractors that I was speaking to that I spoke to regularly. I didn't even pace most of them, I just spoke to them regularly, and then a few of them introduced me to projects they just joined in startups and companies that had recently funded. That's basically what happened. In fact, My main large accounts haven't even come from contractors that I've placed myself. Really? It's contractors that I've had, that I've known of, or I've spoken to at times, or I've met at conferences. So yeah, my main accounts have come from that, just constantly keeping in touch with people and having a genuine relationship with these people and being genuine friends with them made it a lot easier for them to introduce me and want to help me as well.

I love that.

So yeah, that just happened.

So like, obviously it is, you get, it's the advice you're given. Susan, keep doing what you're doing, it'll pay off. But obviously you do have those moments where it's like the relationships really become fruitful that you've obviously spent loads of time building. But I think that's really interesting actually, that because a lot of people may have gone to Susan, you're wasting your time there, like focus on the contracts that you can place or whatever. But actually you was cultivating these relationships, staying in touch with people, building rapport relationships that people then actually had the real impact on the thing. So yeah, just quickly In terms of like, um, obviously don't want names or anything, but just it'll be good to get a bit of a picture of like, for you to produce those sorts of numbers, talking about key accounts, blah blah blah, how many like clients do you reckon you was working with at any one time or during that period? Because I think that's a really interesting thing. Back to our point of like, a lot of people think it's always like new business, new business, new clients, blah blah blah, but like to produce those types of results and outcomes, like what we talking in terms of like client, a number of accounts that you're working with working on?

Probably 3 or 4 active accounts at one time.

At any one time, yeah.

Yeah, and then, like, don't get me wrong, like, every now and again I'd, I also did bring on perm clients as well, even though I was a contract biller. We, because we were a growing startup, I'd still bring in perm business as well. So I'd get, like, to cut on that as well. So even though I wasn't working them myself, I was bringing in perm accounts at the time. But for me personally, I'd probably be managing 3 or 4 accounts at any one time.

So that's interesting, right? So I think that's because a lot of people see them think that to get produce those types of results, you might need 15, 20 clients, whatever, did you know what I mean? So I think that, that's why that's interesting. Um, okay, so let's talk about the next thing that a lot of people love to know about Susan is your structure. What you do. So what did Susan, the £200K biller, do and how did she structure a day compared to Susan, £400K+ biller? Like what, I don't know, did you do any change in your day or what did the typical Susan day look like?

Massively, I'd say massively so. I was so scatty in my first year, it was unbelievable. I had about 17 notepads, Post-it notes everywhere. In my head I was like, if I have a notepad for this type of BD, this type of BD, qualifications, to-do lists, notepads, who I've got to call today, who I've got to call tomorrow. I was so scatty. I never stuck to any structure. Every month we have an appraisal, like you normally do, and I'd sit down with Ryan and Jack and be like, the one thing I need to change is my structure. I've not got a grasp on what I'm doing. And I think I was hitting my normal target because I had enough coming in, but if I'd have managed my desk better, I would have got more out of it. So it was literally just a battle with myself of being organised. Like, I need to change my structure, I need to put stuff in place.

So let's talk about it. What did you change?

So I resulted down to one notepad, 17, and Just tracking everything, like tracking everything now on Excel spreadsheets, like hotlists, BB hotlists, just put everything on there. And at the end of every day, I make sure my desk is tidy and I've uploaded all of my information that I need to. And the day, when I end my day, I then write my day structure and what needs to be done before the next day, so when I come in, it's ready to do. But my typical day is literally, In the morning, I go through my inbox and I say to myself, after the morning meeting, you've got 30 minutes to go through your inbox. Anything that's urgent, you get it done. Anything that isn't urgent, you come back to it just before lunch. And then the morning will be always sourcing leads, and then the afternoon is chasing leads and BD. But even now, I can tell you now, you know what happens, emails come in, something comes in, there's a webinar, and then you're thrown off, and they're like, right, bring yourself back to your structure. So yeah, that changed massively for me. I've really had to be strict with my structure.

Obviously, do you think that was a big part as to why you got more out of the efforts?

Yeah, like listing everything, putting everything in a list and tracking it and tracking last contact and that. And yeah, just making sure I was making a record of everything I've done because at times I just, I wouldn't even know where the notes on a candidate I'd just done were because I'd be all over the place. So that, and then the second thing was something that really resonated with me, like Ryan always said, like, you've got your target, but to be really, really good, your target shouldn't be your target, your target should be double your target or triple your target, that's what your mental target should be, and that kind of happened, and then I set myself that my target should be double and double or triple what I was looking for, or what my target was.

Think big.

Yeah. And just, I don't know what, I can't even tell you what I physically changed other than the way I did my structure. But then after that, I was, instead of hitting my target, I was doubling my target every month. And I don't know whether it was literally just changing my mindset that you've got to reach for more rather than just thinking about reaching your target. And then that's when it came to like doubling it every month.

I think, I think what's really interesting about that is that and I've had to do this for myself since having my own business for the last year— is that, like, I knew structure was important, but I actually didn't have a structure to put things in, if you get what I mean. Do you know what I mean? So, like, you obviously just got shit done, made things happen, but what you've now got, even when you do go off on a bit of a tangent, you've got something to return to, you've got a structure to put things in. I think that's just the most important thing, that actually you need to spend time on what a good day looks like what you want that day to look like. And once you've actually got a sort of core skeleton and a core structure, you've actually got something to return to rather than just, don't know, just making shit happen, being reactive, blah blah blah. But if you don't actually have like a structure to put things into, then you've got no hope.

And I think that's something as well that I learned is I do, although I set myself, although I do say I do sourcing in the morning and bidding in the afternoon, I'll do like hour sessions. I'll do an hour of this, an hour of that. And something will happen in the day that may change that. So you just touch base at lunch, and at the end of lunch, I come back off lunch and think, right, is it realistic to have what I had planned done, or is it worth changing that to kind of help with what's just come in? So it's just about touching base with yourself all the time and adjusting it to go on. And something that I've actually started doing a lot more recently since working from home, actually, because I've really struggled to focus being on my own all day. And somebody mentioned it to me, it's literally put a timer on your phone for an hour, set yourself a target in that hour, and then just keep checking it. You're like, I haven't, I'm not near it, and it makes you actually get done what you need to do in that hour.

Yeah, I've done something like that. It's, um, the, um, I've got an app on my phone here, it's called like Focus, it's called the Pomodoro Effect, or the— have you seen, have you seen that? So the, um, yeah, so like basically you can set a timer and it's like, yeah, 25 minutes or an hour, whatever, and then it will obviously go off when you've done it and you'll just have a focus just for the hour. That's definitely helped me as well. I think for me it's, yeah, it's like actually like blocking out specific time to do a specific task will always give me the best chance of being productive as possible.

I'd get an email come in and I just, I would just come in and be like, I'll just do that now. And someone always said to me, like, is that email right now going to help you reach your targets today?

Because if it's not, great question.

Why are you doing it? Why are you taking 5 minutes? Why are you losing your focus? Like, that right now is not going to make you hit your target that you want for day today, so it's not worth doing right now.

That's such a great question to ask yourself, isn't that? Is that, is that going to bring me close to where I need to be, hit my target, blah blah blah. So, so just quickly, you met, you mentioned it, um, a bit around the goals, but I think a real common thing, Susan, besides work ethic and putting in the work, is a lot of people will say that the sort of difference between Susan of last year and the year just gone is mindset. That's really given you the best chance of— that's been one of the biggest changes.

I think I went from— bear with me, I'm just gonna get my charger because my laptop's about to die.

No worries, that's okay, it's okay, no worries.

Definitely wasn't prepared, was I?

That's okay, no worries. Right, yeah, what I was going to say was like, obviously it might have been obviously actually Ryan encouraged you to think big and that sort of just give— and you increase your standards. But I'm just thinking if there's anything else mentally that sort of you think changed or you thought about things differently that you've— that might have had an impact on sort of getting way better or getting way better results?

Yeah, the mindset thing was massive for me. Like, I— because I think I had such a good first 4 months, and then although my second year was good, I was expecting more for myself. Um, I was constantly in this mindset like, it is all luck. I think people go for that all the time in recruitment. They're like, it's just luck. Like, it can't be what I'm doing, it is just luck. And I'd always used to be like, one day it's all just gonna fall to pieces, everyone's gonna realize that it was all just luck, and I had that mindset for so, so long. Even at the start of last year, I was like, it's not actually me, it's just, I'm just lucky, it's just happening because, for some reason, and then it took a long time for Ryan to drill it into me to be like, no, it is actually the work that you're doing, and it is actually you that's doing that, and then I just had a moment and I was like, yeah, fuck yeah, I am good at this, yeah, this is me, I'm doing it. And then I just had like a realization one day and I was like, no, it is me, it's the work I'm doing. And the hard— the more work I do, maybe I'll just achieve more. And yeah, it took a long time, but it was like a big moment.

I know what you mean. It's the self-doubt thing again, right? And I think it's confidence, right? When you're really confident in what you can do, the ability you have, it can really help you level up your game. And I think when you're clearly at that moment and moving forward, you you would have been speaking to people and you will think and know in your heart that you are the best person they should be speaking to in your market. And when you really truly believe that, there's no self-doubt, you're not thinking, ah, I had a lucky month last month, like, that just sort of just oozes out in everything. Do you know what I mean?

That is literally it. Like, people can hear in your voice. They can. Even if you are putting on the smiliest, chirpiest of voices, if it isn't real, I feel like people, they know that, they know it isn't real, and you're dealing with an industry where hiring managers and CTOs and so on, they are getting so many people call them a day that they probably know how to eat you alive if they can sense that you're not believing in what you're saying. So it does change massively once you actually believe in yourself, and I think there will be a few pivotal moments in everyone's recruitment career where that they've probably— something's gone wrong. But even, to be honest, even now when something goes wrong for me now, that self-doubt trickles in and they'll be like, oh, maybe, maybe not that, maybe it's not working. But there'll be like a few people, moments where something really bad will happen, or a candidate isn't playing ball, or you've just, you've lost control of something, and you're like, no, I'm gonna get it back, and you actually fight for it and you get it back, and then you're like, yeah, that's, that's it, that's me, I've got it back. And then you can slowly come back, and I think there'll be 2 or 3 those moments in someone's early recruitment career, well, they need to have those moments where they bring it back and then that'll help them go on throughout the rest of their career.

Love that. So just quickly then, before we sort of talk a bit about today and how you find things, blah blah blah, just thinking about sort of, obviously now you would have, obviously the team would have grown around you, you would have seen obviously being surrounded by way more recruiters, Like, and I guess now you're obviously internally, it'd be like a great story, right? Susan, she was— this is what she did in her first, second year, now she's this, blah, blah, blah. So I guess you must see a lot of people around you that are obviously aiming to get to where you are and beyond, but may not get there, right? So I guess what have been some of the maybe common things that you've seen in others that you think may have had an impact on preventing them? Getting there. So we've spoken a lot about what you did personally to change and then your living and breathing this that you've learned, but I guess it'd be interesting to get your thoughts on maybe some of the things that you think have held people back.

I think common mistakes I see from people brand new to recruitment is they don't listen to the advice or they're not willing to take on the advice that they're given. So really, really simple, If you've had sort of a resource or someone brand new to the industry that works with you, their first few months they're probably going to really bring to you some not very good candidates. Like, they're just not right because they're still learning it, and you keep them saying, "No, they're not quite right," and then you'll get some people that will fight against that, and they'll be like, "No, no, but he told me this." I'm like, "Yeah, he told you that because he's told you that, but it's not true." And I think you'll very quickly see in the first, like, 3 to 6 months, people that that are gonna be successful are the ones that actually listen to your advice and are happy to take it on and not see it as a personal dig to them.

It's like what you did, right?

Yeah, yeah. And then, people that I think, some people just aren't good at taking constructive criticism, and that's not a bad thing, but maybe that's not gonna be right because in this industry, there's gonna be a lot of constructive criticism all the way through your career. So I'd say the common things that I see for people that don't succeed isn't that they maybe don't have the ability, but they don't have the ability to take on constructive criticism or even just advice.

And I think that's important throughout your career, right? Because if you're someone that's able to take on advice, like, that's even more important when you are— so you finish that second year had a great second year and obviously hit your goals, blah, blah, blah. But I'd like to think that you'd be someone that would still be willing to take on advice. Do you know what I mean? I think that's so important. It's important to have it at the beginning of your career because it's really important to say, okay, Susan told me this, I'm gonna make sure I do this next time, blah, blah, blah. But I think the best people that level up again and continue to are also willing to say, yeah, okay, I've had an absolute great year, I finished in the top 3, but I will take advice from that person. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, definitely. There's a big, there's a massive joke in our office, in the team, is I'm really bad at writing, like writing content, writing emails. I'm shocking. I can't, I'm not just not very good at English literature or writing anything at all, to be honest, even spelling, I'm awful at. So everyone always jokes because I will, whenever someone's ever had any success on anything, I'll be like, oh, can you send me the email that you sent that got that response? Because that's got a really good response. So why would I not use it? So I've got, literally got a folder in my inbox of everybody else's emails that have been successful. And the way that I do my work is I'll just take snippets from all of those emails and make my own one. Because I know that it's not my strong point. I'm not spending an hour trying to write an email when somebody else has already had success on one. So why not use it?

I love that so much. So you're still willing to, yeah, still willing to improve and learn from other people, right? Absolutely love that. Cool. So let's just talk a bit about— just quickly, actually, before we come to the end, I want to talk about today and how you've been getting on. But just quickly, how much has it helped you, do you think, beat your competition being like super niche? Because I think you hear all the time— so this comes up so much on the podcast season where it's so important to have a niche. Have inch wide, mile deep, whatever. And also, I know obviously you don't know anything different, right? But like, when, I don't know, when you've spoken to potential clients or whatever, like, how has it enabled you, or has it given you a competitive advantage over others when they might have spoken to other people? I don't know, what's been your experience with that? I'm interested. I think that's worth highlighting.

Yeah, massively so. Like, we, like, we, like I said, we know Well, I know as much as I can about Scala without being a Scala developer myself, but we know the market inside out. Like, I know which contractors are available and which ones are going to be right for the job there and then. So when somebody has a, when somebody has a role, me and the contract team, we literally can, we've got 10, 15 profiles available there and then to go because they're the only people that we're speaking to. That's all that we're doing on a day-to-day basis is literally just speaking to Scala candidates. We don't have to go onto JavaScript or.NET or whatever, so we know it off by heart, whereas if you've got more than one, you can't memorize it all, you don't know it all off by heart, you're gonna have to go looking for it, it's gonna take a bit longer. Also as well, like, somebody that doesn't know their niche, doesn't know their market, they're just gonna be working off buzzwords. That's all they're gonna be doing is working off buzzwords from a job spec, and they're literally just gonna pick buzzwords and put it together. They're not gonna know actually what the project needs, what kind of experience they need with those buzzwords, or what kind of background they want, they're just going to literally throw a CV over with the buzzwords that match, whereas we know what that project is because we've seen 100 of them before. So we know the kind of people that you need and we know where to find them and what companies to find them from.

Yeah, and I think also back to your point of how important it was for you to sort of have complete belief and confidence, like, also that also taps into and helps you have more self-belief and confidence because you know that your competitors aren't just doing this. And sort of, you know, as you just said, off by heart. And that just gives you even more confidence that you know the best profiles for this. Do you know what I mean? And that obviously is huge.

Cool.

So I guess obviously, I'm sure you went into like we all did, 2020, it's going to be the best year yet. £800K, nearly a million pound biller this year. And the universe had different plans. Well, so how obviously, as you said at the beginning of this, one of the challenges you had is focusing throughout the whole day, but how have you sort of been navigating the market over the last sort of 8 to 12 weeks? How have you found it?

There's no hiding it, it has been tough for everyone and things have slowed down, like there's no getting away from that. I think what we have been doing, or what I have been doing, is again, what I have got and who I am working with, making sure that they are protected and you are nurturing that and doing what you can to secure what you've got. And that was my main thing before doing anything else, was secure what I've got before trying to get anything else. It's very well finding something new, but if what you've got already disappears, then you're back to square one. So I very much just kind of keeping in regular contact with what I've got, making sure they're okay. If there is gonna be any hiccups, what can we do? And then from that, it's just the main thing that I've been doing is just market intel. There's a lot of stuff being posted online and on job boards and so on, but no one really knows what the truth of all of that is behind it right now because we don't really know who's actually moving forward with anything. So my approach to it has literally just been, as always, keeping in touch with my contractors and keeping in touch with market and just going off of what is actually happening with market intel and just moving forward with that.

And what's been— so what's been your— it's always, I think, important to make sure that people are aware that the challenges they're facing, they're not going through them alone. So what's been the biggest challenges for you then since this has been going on for you personally?

I think it's just been the hiring freezes that we've heard. Just everyone is— they do need people, but they just can't bring them on right now.

I think it's a tough objection, right?

You can't bring them on right now, which is probably the truth in most cases. It probably is. So the way we've approached it is just, well, getting a backup, getting a backup of people that are available for when—

like a bench.

Yeah, like a bench, like having a pool of people readily already interviewed, already there to go. So even if you can't get anything any placements made now, anything closed now, then just make sure you've got the backup there for when things can progress.

So how has that meant— I think you just touched on it, but I guess because then that can be quite difficult if I'm a recruiter right now. It's like, right, okay, well, I'll keep getting that, keep getting hiring freezes. Like, what should I be prioritizing? Do you know what I mean? So I guess, I don't know, what have you been prioritizing each day? So you said market mapping or market intel, it might be that, but so what what have you ended up prioritizing? Has it meant that the whole day you spend just speaking to people to find things out, just as much candidates, just as much clients, or I don't know, what have you ended up prioritizing or how have your priorities changed?

They haven't really, they haven't changed. My day structure is the same. There are, I'm still, I still do have, maybe I'm lucky, I still do have clients that I'm still having to work for and still find placements for, so I'm still having to source like I do in the morning and I'm still talking to candidates. It's probably the only difference in the BD side of things is the approach that I'm making is probably a bit softer and more of a keeping in touch kind of approach.

Just making sure that you don't come across like insensitive or tone deaf.

Yeah, definitely not. I think the way that people behave in this time, like this is a a global pandemic, like, it has affected everyone, and I think the way that you act and behave now will be remembered for a very, very long time, and people will remember, yeah, remember how you acted, so I think it's important that everyone's going through the same thing, just be sensitive to what's happening.

Yeah, what you're gonna be remembered for, right? I think that's such a great thing, and what's really helped you over the last 8 to 12 weeks personally, sort of just get through the tough days? Because I've definitely had good days and bad days, right? I've definitely, over the last couple of weeks, had way more good days, but still have tough days. I guess, what's helped you personally sort of just get through those tougher days?

Wine?

Yeah, of course you can.

Yeah, definitely wine. I never used to drink during the week, but I do now. But I'm trying to see it as a sophisticated I think just, I speak to my contract team all day, like every day we'll have a FaceTime, and sometimes it's literally like 10-20 minutes of not really fully work-related, it's just having a bit of banter. Like, I love my contract team, it's me and the 4 boys, and I absolutely love them, like they make my job the best thing ever, like I love seeing them every day, we have so much fun, So just 20 minutes every day speaking to them just picks up my mood. So I've just been making sure I'm keeping in contact. And the girls, I'll have a little gossip with the girls before the morning meeting, we'll have our coffee, the girls I work with. So it's almost like I'm still touching base. But in recruitment, you're always in a busy environment, like it's constant noise, whatever. So I've just been trying to recreate that by just making sure I'm speaking to people, not just emailing, but actually seeing their faces.

Yeah, just using those things to make you remember that you're not alone and it's not just you in your one-bed flat just smashing it out and you're not in a silo. Yeah. Cool. And before I ask you the last couple of questions, I have to ask, just because I think a lot of people will be interested in hearing Ryan's story, I guess, what, from your perspective, being in obviously at Signify during obviously the growth, I guess, How has sort of Ryan's leadership impacted you personally, do you think? What's been some of the things that maybe he's done or just been in that environment that do you think has had the most impact on you, out of interest?

Well, I've learned pretty much everything that I know from him and his environment. So everything that I've learned and all the success that I have had has come from him and his environment. So that's pretty much it. Like, I wouldn't have achieved what I've achieved without his and Jack's support and what they've taught me, because I didn't have anything before. They gave it all to me. So yeah, like, I wouldn't be where I am now without that environment. Like, I probably wouldn't even still be in recruitment because those times when I did really doubt myself and I'd walk home to the station at the end of the day and be like, I can't do it anymore, no, it's too much, and then going back in and having the encouragement from them has kept me in it. So Yeah, I think I would not be who the recruiter I am today without what Ryan has taught me.

I love that. So what are you most excited about, Susan, post-COVID? Personal, professional, what are you most excited about?

Holidays! Get me in the sunshine! I've had to cancel like 3 holidays this year.

I should have been in Bali and Sydney, like I had a trip to Bali for 2 and a bit weeks, see my friends, and then trip to Sydney for the first time and had to cancel that. Fuming.

It's sad. So yeah, I think holidays and just being back in the office, like I need to be in the office. I can't be at home on my own anymore. I'm going crazy. I've been talking to my plants. I need to post that plant today. I need to be back in the office.

Yeah, so look, last question. You can answer this with a phrase, a sentence, a word, whatever comes up for you. But if Susan could communicate to every single recruiter out there, they'd listen to your advice, they'd take it on and implement it tomorrow, what would you say to the people?

Listen. Everything. Listen to the advice, listen to your candidates, and listen to your clients. Just listen, actually take it in.

Love that. Susan, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you for having me.