Tara Jackson - The A-Z of succeeding as a delivery consultant

Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentors Podcast. I'm your host, Hishem Azzouz, and this week I sat down with the amazing Tara Jackson from a company called Venetrix. What we discuss in this episode and what we try to achieve with this episode is talking about how building a successful career in 180 recruitment, delivery recruitment, whatever you want to call it, is nothing to be ashamed of and why it should not be seen as a career path that isn't as good as a 360 recruitment consultant, um, and those things. So we really dug deep into what do you have to do to be an absolute killer delivery consultant. Tara's now progressed all the way to a manager, so she's also managing people, but we really got into how she consistently generates candidates through referrals, building her brand on LinkedIn, how she's gone about managing a team now and passing on all the things that have worked for her, and how she's also really reignited her career as a delivery consultant, and how that then showed up in her performance where in her most recent year she built £400,000 as a delivery consultant.

Enjoy the episode. Tara, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Been looking forward to this. Obviously, we are— hopefully for everyone listening on this episode— we are on a mission to educate, inspire a career in delivery. Yeah, 180, whatever you want to call it. So where I want to start, obviously you've been in recruitment for 4 years, had your recent 4-year anniversary, and you've really carved out yourself a successful career in being in a 180 role. So we're going to really get into the sort of weeds of like how you've done that, advice maybe you give yourself early on, and these types of things. So where I'd really like to start and get your thoughts on From the sort of journey that you've been on so far, what do you believe are the maybe common characteristics or traits that you would maybe see and have seen in the top performers around you and what makes up a successful consultant in today's market, do you think?

Yeah, definitely. So I think one of the main things that I think you have to be is brave. I think it is a really, really difficult job and I think it's the main reason why people leave recruitment is because like they can't do it. But I think everyone can do it if you're brave enough to try lots of different things. And the other main thing is being authentic. So I remember when I graduated, there were thousands and thousands of recruiters on LinkedIn messaging me, just posting loads of bulk texts on LinkedIn. I was like, oh my God, I don't want to speak to any of these people, they're so scary. Like, that word recruiter gave me the fear. So it's something that we've really tried to do at Venetrix, and I've very much built a personal brand around doing those videos that I think you gain that trust from people that they realize, oh, she's a normal person, she has a normal life, um, that people buy into you. Um, the other thing is I think it comes down to the company.

Yeah, sure.

And I think if the company aren't helping people to understand like why you're doing that job every single day, like what is the vision, what is the mission, and where do you want the company to get to, it's very hard for people to be successful because they don't know where they're getting, why they're doing it, and where they're getting to. Whereas if you've got someone that wants to like try different ways of doing the job every single day, someone that wants to do things differently, plus they know what the vision is of the company, that's going to be a recipe for success.

Yeah, brave. I love that word, brave. I think you're the first person to say that. I think that's a great way to put it. You 100% have to be brave. I love that. Yeah, authenticity. I really like that. How, how do you feel? We had someone in here last time, a guy called Ant, And one of the sort of things that he got in hindsight was, he put it in a really cool way, he was just like, when things really kicked on for him was when he really brought himself to work. But leading up to that, he tried to put on this sort of professional facade of like, sometimes you feel like you have to wear this professional mask, don't you? Did you experience that, like Tara in the Venatrix environment or in the work environment was a bit different I don't know.

I think what's difficult is in recruitment, you have to have that control over the candidate. So it's, when we hire people, it's trying to tell them of like, you've got to get that control, but also they've got to buy into you as a person. So it's, I think that's the really difficult part because if I got on a call with every single candidate and was like, oh, I did this on the weekend and did that, you still need them to respect you.

Sure.

So definitely were times where I probably was super corporate, Tara, that was probably a lot pre-COVID, whereas then I think when we went through COVID, everyone was doing Zoom calls in their bedroom. You had— I had a puppy that was like running into, um, where I was working like every single day on every call. So I think people then realized that you are a real person and you can still have that control, but they can know a bit more about you.

You, yeah, also maybe grew into it then, or like, okay, that's interesting.

But that, that was 2 years in, So I'd done recruitment for 2 years and then I think, we'll speak about it later, but COVID was a very pivotal part for me of like totally changing my career and starting to be really successful. So I think that's a good balance. Yeah.

So let's start with then the beginning, I think would be a good place to start. And let's maybe sort of compile into the first 2 years, as you said, and then the last 2 years.

So yeah.

Who was Tara before recruitment then? Where were you at?

Oh God. So I'd just graduated from university.

Okay.

Hadn't even got my results yet.

What did you get a degree in?

At Benetrix. So I actually started doing international hospitality management.

Wow. Okay.

I had no idea what I wanted to do. I wasn't a high achiever at anything really, but I was always winning awards for trying hard. So I was never the best at sport or the best academically, but it was— I was always winning the Endeavour Prize.

Oh wow.

And so worked at loads of like golf clubs and bars and thought, oh, I'm gonna be a like organized weddings, it's going to be so glamorous. Went to university and had to spend the first semester in a kitchen learning how kitchens work, and I was like, I can't do this, I was like, this isn't for me. So I then had a couple of friends that did business and marketing, thought, right, try that, give it a go. So started doing that and did a placement year in marketing, saw the sales team, and I was like, that's what I want to be doing. And so Started when I graduated looking for lots of roles. Again, didn't really have any direction on what it was. And I met my CEO, my director, Sophie and Elaine, and I was like, that's what I wanna do. I was like, that is 100%. I didn't care about recruitment.

It could have been doing anything.

And I was like, that is who I wanna work with.

So let, it'd be good just before we go on, I think obviously we're getting into graduate, the graduation season now, and I've got a few things planned, but it'd be good just to get your thoughts on, 'cause obviously you, you work with the entry-level market, right? So I guess it'd be good just get your take on now, like obviously that was 4 or so years ago. In hindsight, what, what is your advice to like young people graduating of like getting a feel or understanding of what is it is they want to do? Cuz it can be so— whenever I speak to people, they've got the pressure on themselves of like, I've just got this degree, I don't want to be a failure, like I've got all this debt now, I need to make the most of it. They then got the pressure of their parents, like, is Tara, my child, going to do something that 'Yeah, we want them to do—' There's so many different things, and you're like, 'I have no fucking clue what I'm gonna do.' Yeah. What's your advice to those people? Because I'm sure you dish this out quite a bit.

Yeah, 100%. I think you can't be afraid to fail. I mean, I never— from day one at Benetrix to probably that 2-year mark, I probably every week went through a part where I was like, 'Oh my gosh, I can't do this anymore. It's really difficult.' My best advice is always to break it up into not job titles, not sectors, think about what do you want in a job. Do you want a job that's going to require you to be picking up the phone to people? Do you want to be speaking to people? Do you want to be working towards targets? Do you want to be in an office? Like, what's that environment that you want? Because no one knows from doing a degree if they want to work in recruitment, if they want to work in marketing. Sure. You don't know until you're in that commercial environment. So I always say people will accept a job at the company where they feel really inspired, by the leader. And that is the person that's the most important to you throughout. Elaine's still the most important person to me in the working world, and we're 4 years in. So it's that person that you're going to learn from, you're going to learn everything from. So if you don't buy into them, if you're not inspired by them, you're not going to want to do the job.

Yeah, I like that. And I like what you said around like really dial in and focus on the types of things that you feel you would enjoy and want to be doing in a role rather than what the job title is, the sector, and those things.

Yeah, job titles mean absolutely nothing. Like, even for recruitment, you've got delivery consultant, talent executive, junior recruitment consultant. Everyone calls themselves a different thing, and like, that doesn't matter. I think you have to really think about who you're going to be working with on a day-to-day basis and that journey and mission that the company's going on, because that's what's going to inspire you on a day-to-day basis.

Yeah, and then I think I really like what you said around like, yeah, don't be afraid to fail as well, because I think that's— I didn't go to university, so I didn't have those pressures. But whenever I've spoken to people that graduated and up in the recruitment or whatever, some of the things I always pick up on is they just have— they're very locked in on landing the perfect role and the perfect position out of uni. They— it has to be the perfect one, these types of things. But I don't know, my perspective on it, I don't know if you would agree, is like, yeah, stop focusing on perfect and focus on, like you said, being in an environment where you think you would enjoy. And it's all about experimentation. Like, you will still be able to get a job if you go into a job and you don't, you don't end up enjoying it, and you're there 3 months and then you go into another thing. Like, I don't know, I just feel like, yeah, like it's all about experimentation and tasting and understanding what you want and what you like.

100%. And the question that I get asked a lot is if someone's been in a job for 3 months, they say, oh my gosh, does this look really bad that I'm leaving? Should I stick it out for a year? No, no. Yeah, why, why do a job that you know you're going to leave and you don't see that progressing in a company? And even if I was interviewing someone, I'd much rather someone said I've done this job for 3 months. This is what I've learned. This is now what I know I do and don't want to do. So this is what I'm looking for moving forward. I think no one knows what they want to do.

Yeah, rather than like, I have to stay here to make my CV look good.

Yeah. And like, no, I don't even read the CVs. I'd much rather like jump on Zoom, speak to someone on the phone because why are we judging junior people based on an A4 piece of paper when you're hiring someone based on potential?

Yeah, I love that. So let's break down these first 2 years then. What were some of the biggest challenges then for you? Like, why do you think in hindsight now, why do you think, what were some of the things that you felt were holding you back?

Let's start there. So I think I was going through a big transition. I was, what, 21, graduated from university, moving to London. Suddenly you're earning a salary, you're earning commission. It's like, oh my God, I can go out all the time. So it was just that crazy whirlwind of, life, um, I think was having a massive impact. I think I found, again, not being a high achiever at GCSEs, A-levels, uni— I was just normal, just a coaster. I— it was really, really difficult, and I am someone that I do like to do well, especially in that target-based environment. I liked to have good numbers on the board and be feeling successful. So when your whole world comes crashing down and every single candidate cancels interviews and candidates are leaving jobs, you are literally like, I can't do it anymore. Like, there were days where I would just like sob at my desk, um, would have to be taken to Starbucks to like calm down. And one thing that I think is really important is remembering the bigger picture. And I think that's what I couldn't do because I was quite— I think maybe quite naive to what I could achieve within the business. Um, so I think just like when one day went wrong, I was, oh my God, I can't do it anymore. Like, this is all going wrong. Whereas now I have a bad week, I have a bad month, I'm like, okay, well, what's the next 6 months going to look like? What's the next year going to look like? But I think it's a— I think recruitment's a really hard job to do when you're that young. Yeah, I mean, you're dealing with so many people and so many— you're dealing with other people's emotions, your emotions, and trying to do a job where It's hard to control people, they do whatever the hell they want. Yeah. I think you do grow into it as you mature. For sure.

So let's talk about, you mentioned going to Starbucks there. What's like the ritual now for Tara if like shit goes wrong, like candidate accepts a job somewhere else, candidate ghosts you even though you just put all this effort into them, you've got them a job offer, they're going to sign a contract, then they don't turn up on the day. Love that. Like, we all know how difficult this is, and your world is all about candidate relationships, candidate management, so What's the ritual for you? This will be helpful for people. It's a ritual for you to get over those days where you have those setbacks.

It's not a life or death situation. That's the question you say. I literally say that to myself. I say it to myself outside of work now as well, of it just doesn't matter. And I think it comes back to a company helping people to understand the long-term vision, because if I cried about every single candidate that dropped out of an interview, didn't turn up to an interview, you can't move forward. So just thinking, right, why would I— why am I going to waste my time on that person that doesn't want to accept that job? Like, why don't I go and cold call 10 other people that I've never spoken to before? So just remembering, like, nothing is going to go wrong, no one is going to die in the situation, it's fine. And I think that's the hardest thing again when you first start. Like, it's fine, it's just a job. It doesn't— it does matter because you want to hit your target, but like It doesn't matter. Like, no one's ever going to be angry at you. And then being able to learn, like, right, what could I do differently? Nice. Yeah, that's a good question to ask. So we use, we record all of our Zoom calls, all of our phone calls. Then I'll go back, not always on the same day, but maybe a couple of days later and be like, right, okay, I'm going to rewatch that Zoom call. Like, what did I miss that they said to me of like that I should have realised?

Like realised, yeah. And then do you do anything like, a lot of people I've sat down with, they like go out and go for a walk or anything like that.

Yeah, so sometimes if I go for a walk, I find it, if I'm really angry, then I'll be like, right, going for a walk, going for coffee, even got a glass of wine, I'll be like, I've just got to get over it. But I think I really have got to that stage where like it doesn't affect me as emotionally anymore. Like I'd definitely be able to do it. But when we hire junior people into the business, it's that your heart feels for them when they are so excited about a candidate and they just get ghosted. And it's just trying to help people understand, like, it is going to be fine. Like, it's gonna happen to you loads. Um, I actually wrote a LinkedIn post about a candidate that ghosted me once and just said, think it's so sad that you can invest so much time in someone and then they just vanish off the face of the earth. And the candidate read it and then messaged me and they were like, I am so sorry, like, I didn't realize how it had come across. So also, just call the candidate out. Like I've said to them before, like, look, totally understand you don't want the job, but like, why are you treating me like a piece of shit? Like it's not fair. Like I'm just doing my job trying to help you. Have the respect.

Yeah, I think obviously there's so many different reasons, isn't there? But I feel like it's just quite short-sighted, isn't it? Especially when you're dealing with entry-level talent like that. I don't know, that you could end up being helpful along the way at some point. Exactly.

And I always think that is the best way to end a relationship with a candidate is saying, like, oh, like, I couldn't help you, but let's keep in touch. And I've had candidates that I haven't helped and they've sent me hundreds— well, hundreds— loads of referrals.

Yeah. So back to that word brave, I want to pick up on something you just said. Like, I think it's brave to be able to look yourself in the mirror and go, what could I have done better? And watch your video back, listen to the thing, because that, that can be difficult. So like, how, how did you unlock the willingness for you to do that? Because I'm sure That can be quite hard just to like lean into that straight away because I don't think anyone likes— I don't know, that's hard for a lot of people, I feel like, to be willing to go look at— literally watch what I did and go, I could have done that better. Like, did you always— were you always willing to do that, or was there anything that helped you understand why that's so important or why that's the right mindset?

Yeah, no, I used to absolutely hate it. So when everyone— when anyone first starts, we have to do call listening. Okay. And it was my worst nightmare. And when my manager was like, right, I'm gonna listen to this call on the way home, like, you're gonna listen to it as well, I'm gonna go through it, I dreaded it. It was my worst nightmare having to sit down and like go through all of it. I remember one time someone was like, you literally sound like a screaming child, like you're so high-pitched. Really? I was like, I just hate this now. So it's really, it's difficult. I think it comes from like wanting to be better. Better improvement, yeah. We use this platform called Jiminy where everything's recorded. I can watch anyone's calls, anyone can watch mine, and we've now created a culture where we want everyone to have feedback. But I think if I didn't watch my own calls, how am I ever going to get— how is anyone ever going to get better? Um, I do like cringe at some of the things. I think, why did I say that? But I mean, you learn one thing from watching 30 seconds of it, and then you move forward. Um, I don't always— sometimes what I'll do is I'll put my laptop, like, if I'm cooking, like, on the side, play it, and I won't even be sitting there making notes, but I'll just be listening to the conversation whilst doing something else, rather than having my music blaring, just to try and do it in that way of listening to like snippets that I've said that I like or things that I don't like. No, I love that.

I think, I think more of it should happen in recruitment. I don't think as much of it does. I know obviously because of the way that you recruit and it's like so normal that that's like the way that people upskill and get better, but yeah, I think like you just said, I think the mindset has to just be like, I'm doing this because I'm trying to like improve my performance by 1%, it takes one thing, rather than this isn't an exercise for me to just get sort of taken down or getting negative stuff from it. It's just about improving.

Yeah, I do think it massively comes from the culture though, and I will go on to it with 180. But where the majority of our team do do 180 recruitment, I think it makes us a lot more collaborative because we have to have that relationship with the team that are doing BD and working together. So there is that very open feedback circle where I'll everyone will post a link in the Slack channel and be like, oh, listen to this, or someone did this really well, that it's creating that culture where people aren't scared to have their calls listened to or aren't scared about what they're saying. And that's probably— I had that fear of failing, which was why I used to hate listening to my calls. Whereas now, like, if someone listened to it and they were like, why did you say that? I'd just be like, oh, don't know, like, let's change it. Whereas at the beginning, it's that fear of failing, whereas now I feel like I'm so much more brave with recruitment. I'll try something, if it goes wrong, doesn't matter, no one's died, I've tried it. Yeah, I love that.

Okay, cool. So let's talk about, let's talk about performance then. What, what did you— what was the best year for you in those first 2 years then? And then we can talk about how, uh, you unlocked your potential, mate, the next 2 years after.

It probably wasn't even from a billing perspective. Probably the happy— well, the most exciting time for me was when we started doing LinkedIn videos because I wasn't doing very well at all, couldn't find any candidates, was like, what am I gonna do? And I literally posted a selfie on LinkedIn with someone that's big in the software industry, and it just got like 200 likes. And I was like, oh my God, this is so cool.

Let me backtrack. Wait, sorry, so I, I definitely want to go into this. So like, no, no, it's fine. I guess what I wanted to find out was, in, in the first 2 years— and then we'll select— in the first 2 years, what was your best year?

Billions-wise? Oh, probably like 150. Okay, yeah, because I then want to say—

and then obviously then the last year you just did this. Yeah, so 150, right? Yeah, got it. Okay, cool. So actually, wait, is this—

can I change it? Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Let's say 100 because then it'll sound more impressive. I actually can't remember.

All right, okay, cool. So yeah, first 2 years, like best year you had billions-wise, like around 100, right? Yeah, as you said. Okay. So I guess the first thing I wanted to do before we go into this, the last 2 years, is talk to me about a day in the life of a delivery person. Like, because typically, like, I, I was in a 360, um, environment, so you can easily break up your day, be the candidate. But like, you are like, yeah, just talk to us about what does a delivery professional, like, what does their typical day look like and make up? And then we'll break it down.

Yeah, now, now. Okay, so A massive thing for us is personal brand. So we want everyone in the company to do about 4 videos on LinkedIn a week. So my day always will start with a LinkedIn video because I think to be successful you have to be consistent. So LinkedIn video out by 8:30. So once I've done that, I will then start my day with going through anything that like is urgent. So like any CVs that have come into my inbox, any feedback that needs to be actioned or anything like that. So I usually always break, like leave myself 8:30 till 9 to do all of that. All of that, yeah. Then depending on how we work is we basically do a qualification call with a candidate. If we think they could be a good fit, we'll then get them on a Zoom interview. So I'll then start doing a call out or I'll go straight onto Zoom interviews. Perfect day is where you speak to like 3 perfect Zoom interviews. They're really bought into the process. You think they could be a really good fit. And then we invite people to virtual assessments. Stringed in with a couple of job offers is a perfect day.

Okay, nice. All right, so a real mixture of basically building your candidate pipeline, trying to generate referrals, speak to people. Obviously for you guys with your business model, you have assessment centers. Yeah. Um, and then are you— and then also, are you actively involved in taking the offer to the candidates if they get to that, or what, what's the part of that as well?

So that's split. So in terms of the, the— in terms of the resources job at Venitrix, so it's to find the candidate, invite them to a virtual assessment, and then mentor them through that whole interview process. So that can even be— we still pitch them the jobs, it's just got an account manager that would then deal— liaise directly with the client. Okay. Um, so you manage them through that whole process. We take feedback after every single interview they've been to and get feedback from the clients. The account manager actually takes the feedback from the candidate and the client just to streamline that process. Okay. Then when it gets to the job offers the— usually the account manager will do it, but it's something that we train everyone to do and give people the opportunity to do because it is one of my favorite things. So if I was like, can I do a job offer? Yes, like, it's fine. It's just when the— if the account manager is doing it, they've just got a bit more control over if the candidate's trying to like negotiate the salary and things like that, rather than it being like us trying to go back and then me passing a message to someone else. Sure. Um, but we do something called a lunch and learn where we cover different topics So the next one we've got coming up is around taking feedback and job offers. So even though people are still only on that candidate side, we're still giving them full exposure to the whole process. Yeah, hopefully. And again, with all of those calls being recorded, everyone can go and listen to them of how it's done.

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Yeah, so pre-COVID, Venetrix was a very different recruitment company to where it is now, and I think the main thing for me of when I really started to see success was that I felt really, really empowered in the role. And it wasn't that I wasn't being like— no one had— everyone had my back before, but when we went into COVID, there were only 3 of us working and I was one of those 3, and it was more like oh shit, like, yeah, this is going to be really, really difficult. And for me, that was very much the turning point of like, right, I need to do this now. Um, so I think it's when I speak to people that are doing 180 Recruitment and I'm like, oh, like, why don't you like it? They're just like, oh well, just finding candidates, aren't I? So I think what we try— what we do at Venatrix is empower everyone in the company to like not just do their job, do podcasts, do webinars. Like, what can you do outside of just finding candidates. So for me, it was then seeing this bigger picture of— I think pre-COVID, I was just like doing the job for a job, whereas I very much— when we got to COVID, it was like, right, this is our vision, this is the mission, even though it was just to get through. Yeah. Whereas now it's like every morning— well, every Monday morning, it's like, right, this is where we're at revenue-wise, this is where we're at in terms of compared to last year. Yeah. But everyone's now got this exposure to the vision of the company, which I may think may makes everyone feel really good.

Yeah, you don't— yeah, you're not just like, I'm just doing candidates all day. Yeah, you're taking a step back and being like, wow, I have a really important part to play in the business and the vision and the creating.

And that's where there was the turning point that I, I understood why I was doing the job, whereas pre-COVID I was just doing the job to get some money to go to the pub on a Friday. Whereas now I'm like, right, I'm doing this job because I want us to get to this point, but I always also like actually want to help candidates get the right job for them and be really successful.

I love that. Anything specific? So you mentioned now, obviously you're saying that personal branding ended up being big. Yeah. So did you not post that much but in the first 2 years then?

I just posted chunks of text. Really? Yeah. Wow, that's impressive. No, I don't think anyone did photos or— yeah, like loads of videos, whereas now I would probably— 90% of my placements are referrals or from LinkedIn. Really? I don't— I—

so why did that end up being a pivotal moment for you beyond the, like, being part of the bigger picture? Because you said that in COVID you posted a picture or whatever, and then you're like, oh my God, like, this is a way that I can— this is a way of me doing recruitment which I didn't realize I could do before.

So I think it's the stigma around recruitment. So when I was on the job search at uni, I was chucked into interviews left, right, and center. Like, people would just ring me back, could you do an interview in 5 minutes? I was like, yeah, of course I can, because I'm a naive little graduate. Yeah. Um, Whereas, so I hated recruiters. I was like, I never want to speak to a recruiter again. Like, they are evil. Like, they just want to get a tick box of getting me to that interview. Whereas when we started doing the videos, I think it helped people to understand, like, oh, she is just a normal person, whereas this, like, not this scary recruiter behind a screen just posting loads of texts. And I think when people are looking for a job, especially entry-level people, It's a really nerve-wracking time. Like you said, when you're coming out of university, what do I want to do? That sometimes I'll have a half an hour Zoom call with someone, it's got nothing about me helping them get a job, it's them asking me questions of like, what do the jobs do? How do I earn commission? Like, what does this do? And me giving my time to people like that and people feeling like they can approach me, I find really rewarding and I think is why I've become successful, that I'm someone that people can talk to when they don't know, they don't have any direction, they don't know where they're going.

And this, yeah, so, and sharing Online just enabled you to really, yeah, showcase that people bought into that. Yeah, I said that had a real positive impact.

Yeah, and I think when, when you're especially graduates, they don't know what they want to do. There are thousands of job posts online that if they can actually just be really open, and I jump on a Zoom and someone's like, I don't know what I want to do, like, can you help me? They've seen like my personality from that video, which is why they've reached out to me. So I think that's really helped on being able to stand out.

Okay, cool. So talk to me about then, on this journey you've been on so far, what would you say are like the principles of being like a shit-hot delivery consultant? Like, what, what do you think? What have you consistently think about? I need to get 1% better at this every day. Like, what are the fundamentals and principles to being a successful delivery consultant that people have to work towards getting right?

Yeah, so the main thing is consistency. Okay. You have to do every single process the whole time. So it's something we were talking about this week because some weeks I'll get 10 referrals and some weeks I'll get none. It's all like fun and games when these referrals are coming in and I mean that the candidates are more bought into the process because their friends got a job from it. Um, but the moment that I've taken my foot off the gas and thought, oh, it's fine, I don't need to make sure today, I don't need to go through any applications, I don't need to do another, like, do a LinkedIn recruiter project. That's when trouble starts.

To be consistent with the things that— the activities that you know are going to get—

yeah, so something that, um, me and a girl called Saskia on the team did a couple of weeks ago was we broke our whole week up into hours. Okay, right. How many hours do all the one-to-ones take? How many hours do the team meetings, um, take? How many hours does it take to film my LinkedIn content? How many hours do I need for resourcing? And we broke it up that way to then have more of a tick list and to block out our time of when you've got 20 minutes spare in between a call, rather than like, oh, I'm just gonna go for a walk around the kitchen, get my washing out, be like, right, okay, well, I can do that job though. I can film 2 LinkedIn videos in that time. So it's the consistency factor and doing everything every single day that you know works rather than taking your foot off the gas. But then I think also reflecting on that, that you can't just— your voicemails can't be the same every single time because they're reflecting on what's working, reflect on what's working, not work, what's not working, and change it. Like, you have to try new things. I love that. So like, a couple of weeks ago I started sending candidates videos on LinkedIn. We've started doing voice notes on LinkedIn Have I seen much success with it? No, I think people think it's a little bit weird.

She's been doing a little experiment.

But doing it as an experiment, like you have to try different things. Things will work for 3 months and then no one will reply to an email. Like, so mixing it up.

What's been the most consistent way of you generating candidates, do you think, like activity-wise? LinkedIn. Really?

100%. LinkedIn videos and— So it's your personal brand? Yeah, I think when people enjoy the process and we invest a lot of time into these candidates that when they get a job, they are really grateful, especially when they're making that really important decision. They're so grateful to us that when they're happy with the process, they do want to send their friends to you. They've just got a really cool job, they're at the pub saying, oh, I've done this. They are going to send you referrals. So we were talking about it, um, on one of the recruitment mentors sessions of if you've given someone that good experience, they are going to want to refer their friends to you because it's built that element of trust.

Yeah, it's so interesting, right? So being really honest with you, I know obviously a couple of entry-level focus recruitment companies, and whenever I speak to them, it seems like they're very reliant on job boards and like haven't quite cracked LinkedIn, or like, I don't know, like, so you obviously clearly, clearly it's working for you guys, but are you consistently finding then that more and more people coming through and graduates are on LinkedIn more earlier, are using it, because it has dramatically changed.

Yeah, it's— I think a lot more people are on LinkedIn. Like, I don't understand people that aren't. Um, I think it's really weird as a graduate to— not really weird, I think it's strange to not have a profile. Um, I think it's a thing that is really bad at universities. It's something that they don't promote it. You are pushed on the, like, you've got to go on a graduate scheme, this is all you can do. So the majority of people that I speak to, again, it's that friendly face of like, oh my gosh, there's an entry-level role there that I don't like. There aren't, um, you— they are going to be able to do it. Um, I think it's become— I've done it for 4 years. I know people in the team that do use the job boards a lot. Um, but for me, I think I've just had that— I've got that reputation in the market now where someone thinks, right, I want to— I want an SDR role, I've got a friend that wants one. Oh, Tara does SDR roles. Okay. Um, but I think it's what we do at Venetrix. We are like laser sharp focused on only recruiting SDRs for the software industry. So if anyone— we've got that reputation of you want an SDR, go to Venetrix. You want to be an SDR, go to Venetrix. Whereas when the net is cast so wide, maybe it's harder to have that reputation.

Well, I guess anyone listening, if you're on a delivery— I mean, anyone, for me, I've been advocating this for a while, but you have to be investing in your personal brand. I mean, that's just clear evident how much of an impact that is it had in your role and how much it's helped you. Um, I guess when it comes to— obviously you've recently gone on a management journey. Yes. What's that been like?

Tough. I've— so it got to the point where, um, there was a role advertised for a team leader role. I was very anti-managing a team. I was like lone wolf, just want to do my own thing. And I, again, it was in COVID and I was like, I feel so passionate about growing the team internally. That's what I want to do. Um, managing people is really, really tough because they throw things at you that you just don't even expect or know how to handle. Um, it's difficult, but I love it. I think there is nothing more rewarding.

What's most surprised you?

Gosh, what's most surprised me? I think, I think how difficult the job is. I think everyone thinks, oh, it's so easy to be a manager, like you just manage people. Like, it's, it's the one-to-ones, it's the questions, it's the not getting worked up when they're worked up, or like if they not argue with you but say something that like you don't agree with, how to like think about it. And then go back with an answer. So like something that I learned very early on was like never go into a call not knowing what the call's about. So someone's like, oh, can I speak to you? What's it about? So that you can prepare yourself for whenever it's going to be. Not blindsided. And I think I have a very quick temper, obviously not in the workplace, but I have a very quick temper.

Um, and it's about challenge, learning to channel that in the right way.

Yeah, and that's been one thing that's been really important for me. Like, my CEO is amazing. Like, I can just suddenly vent to her about something that's like gone wrong. But for me, it's really been like how to challenge that. So I write a lot of like my thoughts down of things that have annoyed me, and then like just throw the paper away, and then it's like out of my head, and I'm like, right, I feel so much better now. Interesting.

So advice for people on that journey, right? It might be just transitioning.

I think what you've got to remember is that if you hire the right person they are just trying to do their job and going through the emotions of it. So one thing I always used to think of, like, oh my God, what was I like in that position? And like, how they're not at that brave stage yet, they're still at the scared stage. So sometimes the way that they're reacting, it's not against you, it's just you're their sounding board. So you are the first person that they're gonna get pissed off with, get annoyed with. So dealing with that, that it, again, it's not personal. You are just the person that is going to get the brunt of that sometimes.

Yeah, I love that. So massive, I'd be keen to get your thoughts on this. Like, obviously, clearly you've said you're such a collaborative environment, um, you, Elaine, and Sophie work really hard on this, but like, obviously a massive part of your role in people and delivery is relying on like the, the other people in the business, right? Yeah. So what, what's, what are like the fundamentals to like I guess getting to working towards having a really good relationship with your account management team, whatever you want to call it, to really make sure that you, the delivery professional, is on the same page as them and like you're working together rather than the account manager going, fuck's sake, Tara, like this isn't right, you didn't listen to me. What have been— yeah, how have you really made sure that that relationship is really good? Because it has to be in order for you to hit your goals and overachieve and those things.

Yeah, definitely, that's a great question. And actually our most successful business development account manager is Sophie, who's based in France, so she's not even in the London office with the team. So communication is so important. So, um, we didn't used to have Slack, we used to use WhatsApp. And something that we had to stop quite quickly was the WhatsApp conversations because things are read in such a different tone of voice than what they're meant to be. So I've worked with Sophie for 4 years, I can send a message and she knows probably how I'm saying it, whereas someone that's only been in the company for 2 months if someone said something, someone might take it the wrong way. So we got Slack where then like everything is now done on Slack. So it's like, this is work, don't mix the personal stuff. Yeah, with it. So it's a different set of different channels, different channels. We do a team meeting every morning at 8:30. Everyone is on that Zoom call, and we also do one at 5 PM. So everyone, we go through every single job that we're recruiting for, every single candidate that we've got live. So that if there are any matches or anything like that, people have had that conversation. Um, and we speak all day, every day on Slack. So everything is answered, everything is done. I think it's— with the delivery thing, it's empowering those people to feel like they're not just a delivery consultant, that they are actually like, oh shit, I'm actually generating loads of revenue to make this company successful. And I think that's where you're going to get the people that take the job more seriously, rather than someone being like, I'm just finding some candidates, like, I'm bored of this. And I think it comes from companies not empowering people, whereas like, we cannot— I can still go and send an email to a client and arrange an interview and do that. I don't need permission from— it's not that I can't do it, but we have to split the business to get the best for the business. So our biggest challenge is finding enough high-caliber candidates. We've got enough clients, we've got enough inbound leads, we've got that reputation, but the hardest thing is, is the candidates.

What would your advice be for someone that's listening to right now in the delivery role and they've got— they're working with a difficult account manager and like, I don't know, I feel like— because I'm sure you've like— have you like— how have you gone about— maybe there'll be moments where you and Sophie haven't quite seen eye to eye, or like you've had to— like, it must be hard to then give feedback or like work out— I don't know, I'm sure there's ways that on a consistent basis you have to consistently work out how to give feedback. What is your advice to someone that's— because that can be hard.

Yeah, and it's difficult. Me and Sophie are now literally best friends. Yeah. And there are still days sometimes at work where I'm like, oh my God, and she's probably like, what the hell are you doing, Tara? And like, it does happen. I think the best thing that we've learned to do, again, write it all down, get on a Zoom call with them, or if they're in person, have that conversation. Because all you do is rile yourself up and get more and more annoyed at something.

I feel like in that role you can, you could end up pointing the finger, couldn't you? But I've got these fucking great people, and then, and then, and you pass that over and then it hasn't worked out for whatever reason. So yeah, I feel like that's so important.

Yeah. And it's like, again, it comes from having that vision within the company. Whereas like, if a client cancels an interview I know that's not Sophie making the decision. Like, that's just an external factor that we can't do anything about. So again, like, not a life or death situation. What else can we do? Like, where else can that candidate be a good fit? And like, working as that collaborative team to— for everyone to be successful. And I think that's something that the account managers are really good at, is wanting— it's not just like they're the top billers, no one else can be successful. It's like, right, How can I help that candidate make another— that consultant in the team be successful?

No, you're right. You've both— yeah, like, it's— you're going to be fighting an uphill battle if the account manager thinks they're better than you or like their job's more important. And you've both got to be aligned with like, look, if we're both successful and we make this work as best as it can, we both win. That is— sometimes that can be lost. Yeah.

And I think if one thing that people also have to do is if you've got more experience than someone else on a team, like be nice, like help them. And I mean, I would always jump on a call with someone's candidate that they were struggling with, try and help them with that. And again, it's, it's when these recruitment companies have these hierarchies of like, oh, we're the account managers, you're the delivery, like we are so different. Like, why are you making someone feel like that? Because ultimately you're all working in the same company to drive revenue for that company. So why are you creating that divide to not make people feel good in their job. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think that is where this— why people leave these 180 recruitment roles, because they don't feel like they're doing anything to make a difference.

Yeah, 100%. So what ended up being your best year then? Last two years, come on.

Um, last, last year was really good, did £400,000. So yeah, so really happy with that. Amazing. Definitely want to beat it this year, so we're on track at the moment. But yeah, I You must be so proud of that.

That is— that definitely isn't a— what is it— well done, Tara, for just showing up and doing okay work and these things like in the past. Absolutely smashed it.

Yeah, no, I, I— we did a kickoff yesterday and I actually said, I was like, one of my achievements is that I get to wake up every day and like actually love my job and like love everyone that I work with, love the candidates, most of them I speak to. Um, and it is so rewarding. I think when you are, when you feel empowered in the job, everything, that internal feeling, there is nothing better. Like, the commission's amazing and the perks and everything, but how you feel, you can't put a price on that. Yeah, you can't put a price on it. And I think that is what I love the most about it.

So yeah, I guess that's amazing, right? So I think it showcases the earning capability in the delivery role, which maybe some people think is limited and there's glass ceilings. I guess the other thing that maybe some people may have reservations around or think about it is And I think you touched on it, but it'd be good just to get your thoughts on it, is how have you approached, or how has it not become like repetitive and like quote unquote boring because you're just doing the candidate side? Like, how have you added variety? I guess it might come back to the experiments that you try, but like, how have you made sure that, yeah, you're not— it's just like this, you've only got that one element, so you're not getting bored of the things that you're doing? Yeah, you added that. Yeah.

Oh, that's a good one. I think If you're getting bored in that delivery role, I'd probably say like you're not— it's either not for you or you're not in the right company that's making you feel bored. Um, we— I think it's the internal satisfaction. Like, every single candidate that I help get a job, it's rewarding. So even though I am doing the same job every single day, it's the same Zoom call that I'm doing, I still feel really excited doing it and speaking to different people. But I think it's more also the journey that Venatrix is going on And that's also exciting. So it's not like just the delivery side of it that I'm doing. It's like, oh my gosh, we're gonna— if we open an office here next year and things like that, it's that journey that you're going on with the company as well. Yeah, because everyone does the same job every single day.

Yeah, no, yeah, you're right.

Yeah, even if you're an accountant, the job's not going to change drastically when you do it. But I think it's this mindset around delivery again, like just not empowering people and think they're just thinking, I'm just finding candidates the rest of my life. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, it's not that. Well, I think obviously some of the things you guys do well, from what I know and understand about your business, and you touched on it earlier, is like, I think, I guess what I was trying to lead to is like some of the things that you, like, you don't just, you don't just have one way of finding people. Like, you're doing your LinkedIn videos, you're doing all these different things you're now managing, so you've got the variety in that sense. And then I think also from the stuff that I've seen from you guys, you've then really lent into like, what other ways can we do to impact the community and people that we're helping? So you've got the, the community that you're involved in, or like, I think seen sometimes you like meet candidates for drinks. I feel like, I guess what I was trying to tee you up to say was like, no, no, it's like, so it's like obviously, because I think some people think it's like you said, but like there will be again creative ways if you're in the right environment to do other things that bring variety and other ways that you can do things in your role.

Yeah, no, no, that definitely is a good point. And we do do a lot in the community. We go and meet all of our clients, go and meet all of our candidates. Which does make the job really enjoyable when you're seeing like the end goal. So yeah, I know that definitely, that's a good point, thanks for that.

So I guess as we come to the end here then, like why should more people consider and be excited by a career in a 180 role? Like yeah, why should people more consider that and what's exciting about it?

So I think it goes back to when I first started. If someone had made me do 360 recruitment I would have been out of recruitment in 6 months, I think, because I think when you are so— especially for entry-level people starting, which is where most people start their recruitment career— I think it is really difficult to be amazing at both of those, both of those so quickly. Like, it took me 2 years to be really good at just delivery. Um, so I think when I speak to the majority of people, even if they're leaving 360, they're just like, oh, I'm on a rubbish desk, I haven't really been trained on the BD side, haven't really been trained on the candidate side. It's spreading them too thin. Whereas when you're on just that 180 side, you are an expert in what you're doing. And one, it's going to make people trust you more because they've had that experience, because you are so good at what you're doing from learning. It doesn't mean you're going to do 180 forever. I mean, I do 180 and I manage a team, whereas like if I did— I just don't I think it's too much too soon to throw people into that 360, and I think that is why there's such a high turnover in recruitment, because that— it's casting people too wide. Whereas I'm now an expert at placing SDRs in— well, placing candidates into software companies, and that gives you confidence, and that gives me that confidence. Whereas I know that if I'd been asked to do the whole thing from the start, I wouldn't be good at any of them. Love it.

Well, look, had a mega year last year. Excited to see where you end up. I can't believe we're in July. It's exciting to see where you end up in another year's time. But kudos to you, obviously turning it around. I think obviously you could have gone in that environment where it's just you free, COVID, and 100% crumbled. Yeah. And like not come out the other side. You've obviously grown, obviously recently just obviously secured your first property. So happy days. Like congrats, kudos to you. And yeah, thank you so much on the pod.

Thank you for having me, I've loved it.

Thank you so much for listening to the episode. I hope you enjoyed it and got value from the conversation. If you did enjoy it, please don't forget to like, share, and subscribe, and we'll see you in the next episode.