The 110% Rebate: A Bold Strategy to Win (and Keep) Clients with Christopher Slade

Christopher Slade, he's the co-founder of Executive Integrity, which he started with his business partner Simon back in 2020. Over the last 4 years, they've been dedicated to building a high-performance culture whilst also building a company that has giving back at the center of its mission.

So here's what you're going to learn in this week's episode: how to build a business with people over profit at the center of your strategy and the benefits to this.

People want to work for a company that stands for something, right? Just don't want to go to a job and like the company doesn't stand for anything, there's no purpose. Like, we wanted a purpose.

How they set up their commission structures to reward high performance, not average performance.

So our commission structure is one of the best in the games. So if you're an average biller, you get paid average amounts. If you're a top biller, I want you to get paid a top amount, right?

How you can build a culture of accountability and continuous improvement.

You see it time and time in recruitment, like people do really well and then they have a dip-off, they take their foot off the gas. If you keep your foot on the gas and you've got someone who's keeping you accountable, and then when they can see that your KPIs are dropping, having that accountability.

And also how they've diversified their business.

So a salary in the, say, UK that may be $60K, in the US it's $120K. The candidate's still the same caliber of candidate and you're getting paid like double the fee.

And so, so much more.

Enjoy this week's episode.

Chris, welcome to the pod.

Cheers, Hishem. Pleasure to be here, mate.

Obviously we've got to know each other a little while, so I know you've listened to the podcast.

So yes, religiously.

How you, uh, feeling being in the guest seat, mate?

Uh, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Got a lot to discuss, so, uh, yeah, love it. Let's give it a go.

Well, in, um, in today's conversation, we're really gonna focus on your entrepreneurial journey. So you've started a business and been on a journey with your business partner Simon Uh, you started a business called Executive Integrity. So I want to give people a bit of context, the highlight reel.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, for, for people just to sort of help them understand where you're at and also a bit about where you're going. So if I get any of this wrong, feel free to correct me, but, uh, started the business in September 2020 and it was you and Simon until around March 2021.

Yes, that's right.

And then obviously always had ambitions to grow this business. So in terms of how things have looked over the last few years Uh, so by the end of 2021, it was around 6 people as a team, um, revenue-wise was around £600,000-700,000. Uh, end of 2022, there's around 10 of you, just under the million pound mark in revenue. And then end of 2023, there's around 16 people, broke the million mark and, um, came in around £1.4 million revenue for that year. And then today we're around 15-16 people, and the big goal this year and how you're tracking is to break that £2 million mark.

Yeah, hit the £2 million mark. Yeah, love it.

And then in terms of— I think what will also be helpful, so this evolved, and, you know, part of what we're gonna, um, go into. But I've got here, when we prepared for this, you know, a big part of your responsibility now is how can you help the business overall win, uh, win business, get in front of, uh, logos, sign that new logos across, uh, the different brands, the different divisions. A big thing that I know you're really passionate about, which we're going to get into today, is I've got here turning $100K to $200K billers to $300K plus.

Yeah.

You know, making people go from good, average, to great. And I know something that you've really been working hard on as you've been like growing up as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, is how can you get the most out of people? How can you develop the existing workforce? Um, 100% and do that in a few different ways. So plenty that we're going to go through.

Yeah, let's discuss.

So why don't we, why don't we just start with like the beginning stages? So I know you said you, you didn't mind talking about this, but I think, you know, we— it'd be good to just you know, with hindsight, get your thoughts and experience on this. But you actually— you and someone actually started the business with a company called, uh, Sublink, right?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

So, um, obviously went down that route, and from my understanding, obviously they massively helped you go from like just being two recruiters to having a back office. They paid for tech. Um, this then meant that they obviously got a kickback on, on some of the billings. Yes. Um, but talk, talk, talk us a bit about how come you went down that path and I guess why you like the positives that came with that? Because I think sometimes people who are thinking about starting their own business, there's a lot more options out there now, isn't there?

Yeah, of course.

Sometimes people are a bit concerned about that, but what would you say were the reasons why you went down that route and how did it help you in the early stages, do you think?

Yeah, it massively helps, uh, working with Sublink. So it gave us a really good support function. So me and Simon were very good, uh, billers and also very good managers, but we didn't know all about sort of the back office side of things and what tech stack and such forth to use. So them providing us that gave us a massive leap forward. I'm a big advocate for paying the money and working with an expert to make you succeed a lot quicker where that's key for me. So yeah, they provided all that support that let me and Simon just focus on billing. So in those first 6 months we could build up a big cash flow pretty quickly. And that was, that was key. I'd highly recommend that. And then they got a kickback on our billings. And then as we grew, uh, we then didn't want to continue to build our infrastructure within theirs, so then we moved away from that after 2 years. But those 2 years were highly successful, and it was amazing working with them.

Yeah, I love that. I think, yeah, if it— like, there's so much value. Like, when I speak to a lot of solo founders in particular, it's so easy to get bogged down in, like, the website, accounting. Like, you lose so much time.

There's so much admin to do. They took away a lot of that. So we could just focus on building a good client base, speaking to clients all the time, improving our brand name and getting out there, building the infrastructure. So when we resigned, we got put on gardening leave straight away. We didn't want to get straight on the phones because we wanted to make sure that we had all the right processes and that in place. So when we wanted to scale, those processes were in place and ready to go. So when we add people in, they know how we work as a company.

Yeah, yeah. I'm going to get into that because I think I think that, that's like really smart because a lot of people don't do that.

No.

Um, but I guess thinking about looking back, like you said, you, you and Simon had a great track record of like performing builders. How did you think about— when you're thinking about this, this business and building your own business, what were some of the things that you really like the idea of doing like different? Like how—

yeah, we wanted to start with a why. That was pivotal to us, right? So I've read the Simon Sinek book, loads of people have but we wanted to create a company that was gonna put their people and the planet above profit to begin with. So sustainability was key. I worked in a lot of markets that helped reduce emissions. That was critical, right? So we wanted to create a high-performing elite workforce that our commission structure, so when we looked at our commission structure, that was structured around big billers, right? So our commission structure is one of the best in the games. At the lower end, it's average, right? So if you're an average biller, you get paid average amounts. If you're a top biller, I want you to get paid a top amount, right?

Yeah.

So one of our consultants in the first 4 months of this year built 50K in commission, right? So it goes up to 50%. So that was what we built the foundations of the business on. Then we wanted to give back to the environment. That was crucial. So we plant a tree for every placement we make. We are B Corp certified, which means we meet the highest standards of social and environmental performance. We had to change our articles of association to achieve that. We give back a percentage of our profits to Renewable World. So we wanted to create a company that had a purpose, a vision, and aligned with what our clients would want to do in the future, right? So that was pivotal in the start of what we were trying to achieve. We also want to give back. That's critical. So we do charity days, we work with local charities in Southampton. We go there every Christmas to pack presents and then deliver presents to the underprivileged in the community. And the Renewable World, who we donate a percentage of our profits to every single year. I think we've done 15K+ since our inception. They help poverty communities in sort of like places like Nepal, Kenya, and such forth. So yeah, we're super passionate about that. So we wanted to create a brand that people were proud of, right? So you come and work for us, you've got this brand. So you can use that to sell to clients, but you know that we have a purpose and we want to give back. Right, that was critical to us.

You felt that from the beginning, like when you're thinking about your own business, that was really important.

That was super important because, yeah, the planet is what it is. We need to make it better. So that was everything that we made our—

yeah, our journey. I guess for context for people, you're— again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but Your core markets have been maritime, digital, shipping, renewables, offshore wind, energy storage, solar.

Yeah, that's correct.

So I guess that also paints a bit of a picture for people where, you know, you've been, and that was the markets you did in the past, right?

I did digital maritime in the past, so I worked with sort of companies that help with vessel performance and which helps reduce emissions in seagoing.

Yeah, so you were like speaking to these companies, obviously it's really front of mind for them.

Yeah, there's a lot of investment in tech within those sectors, private equity and venture capital, so we really like double down on that and that's really key.

Right, so a couple of things there then. So I, like, I think people would really hate me if I didn't ask you about the commission structure. Yeah, let's just get into that because I think it's very, uh, I think people can be very cynical about that. They can see you posting on LinkedIn saying like, we've got one of the most competitive commission structures out there.

Yeah, of course.

And then people are like, okay, well, how good is it? So I really, I actually, this is like a big lesson I think founders of growing recruitment companies, um, can think about is like, have you got the incentives, um, right? And what I mean by that is when I'm speaking to founders of small growing companies, they're saying that they want their team to be a lot more confident doing new business. They want them to be better at winning new clients.

Yeah.

But the first thing you've got to look at is like, do the incentives match up to that? Like, I remember speaking to a company recently where their commission structure was not aligned to that, right? So I think this is something that sometimes people can miss. And what I thought was really interesting, what you just said there, was like you said, you wanted to breed high performance.

Yes.

And if you're high performing, you're going to be rewarded for that. So talk us through when you say— so have you got like a threshold?

No, there's no thresholds. It's like if you bill, you should get paid on that, right?

Okay.

So between 0 and 20K is 5%.

Okay.

So you're not making loads, but you're getting rewarded for something you do.

Yeah.

I don't really agree with thresholds, okay, uh, because, well, you're not getting paid when you do something that's good for the company, right? So 0 to 20, uh, 5%. 20 to 55 is at 20%. Yeah. $55K to $80K is at 30%.

Yeah.

$80K to $120K is at 40%. And then $120K plus, we're at 50%. And we put it also in when paid, when paid. 'Cause what we used to see in our old organisation is towards the end of the month, everyone just like fudge their invoices in, make sure they get like a hyper commission. Whereas like it's done when it gets paid into the account. That's obviously the following month is when you get paid. So there's, there's no sort of trickery around.

And that's what you're saying is like, if I do a deal in your business and I put it next to my name, I'm not going to get paid on that until it lands in the account. That's another— did you learn that the hard way?

No, no, did that from day dot.

Yeah, fair. So a lot of people, yeah, they have to learn that the hard way. That's that.

Then you're paying out commission. Yeah, you're cash flow problems. Yeah, so that was also what helped to scale the business because our consultants weren't getting paid until it was paid. But we also send our invoices once the offer's accepted. So it's basically getting paid the same time anyway that they would do if they did it on start date. So that works out really well for us.

Have you always done that? Or when you—

Yeah, always done it. Yeah. So I've read it in one of Greg Savage's blogs a few years ago and I thought, well, that makes perfect sense.

Did you get much pushback on that or not in terms of sending an invoice on when the offer was accepted?

No, not at all. Because also we offer 110% rebate, which is unheard of in the industry.

What do you mean by that?

So if our person starts and then they leave within 8 weeks, say the fee was £10K, we're giving back £12K.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah. So they can't push back. What are they going to say? You ain't getting paid 10% in the bank, are you?

Yeah.

On that. So we're going to give them an extra £2K back if it's the same thing they do.

How many times have you had to pay that out?

Twice.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah.

Because a lot of people didn't say, aren't you going to lose money? Right.

But yeah, it's twice in 4 years. So like we do that and then we do also a free replacement up to 12 months as well. Really? But that's depending on what sort of percentage of terms you want.

That's interesting. That is interesting because if I think about my— you're definitely building that around high performance there because when I think about my old commission structure, and I say this is probably fairly standard and I'm sure you've had a commission structure like this where I think we had a threshold which was like $2.5K. Yeah. My average deal size in my market was like $6,500 to $8,000. So it wasn't like huge at all because I did like the regional insurance market. So I had a threshold of $2,500 up to $10,000, it was 10%.

Yeah.

And then it was just like— and then they'll just ratchet. So then from— might not be exactly right, but from $10,000 to $20,000, I'd then get like 15%. And then from $20,000 to maybe another number, I'd get like 20%, or it would just stay as 20%.

Yeah.

So yeah, that first 0 to 20, 5%, you're definitely— so yeah, you're definitely gearing that towards like, like if you're doing 20K months, yeah, okay, you've got some money, but I don't want you to be—

I don't want to be—

that's good enough.

That level isn't good enough, right? You need to work out the— work up there.

What's, um, what's your average deal size across the business?

Probably about 14K.

Yeah, so there we go then. So like, you're like, if you're doing yeah, 2 deals a month, good, but we can do better.

That's over the quarter as well, that commission. Oh, is it?

Okay.

So it's quarterly.

So, right. Oh, as in, so if I've said— wait, I'll let you explain that.

No, sorry. So, uh, that— those ratchets, um, go obviously up to 50%. So that's from, uh, the start of the quarter to the end of the quarter, right? So they move up through there. So they've got a whole quarter to achieve that as well, right?

Okay, sorry, got you. So if I— but yeah, so what you're saying is If I bill £100K in a month, I'm not just then getting the benefit of that that month. You're saying if I do £100K, right, month 2, month 3 as well. Man, okay, I love that. And like, did that like evolve over time, or was there a few different versions of that before you got to that?

And no, it was pretty solid, but then we added the 50% commission this year. So I spoke to my 2 top billers and said, what do you want? We've got this option and that option. They want 50%, so they want to stretch themselves further, right?

Yeah. I love that. The other thing— appreciate you sharing that. The other thing that I wanted to just make sure that I highlighted there was, obviously I'm sure you've seen it, there's been more and more recruitment companies that have become B Corp. Yeah, of course. Really tried to make central their strategy around giving back. Clearly that was important for you from the very beginning in terms of the types of business you wanted to build. I think again, people are cynical, right? So like, I think when I speak to other recruitment um, owners, a lot of them are probably thinking, okay, Chris, but like, you must be doing that for a reason besides like giving back, like all those great things that you said.

Yeah.

So you just said there, have you found then that it's also given your business, um, an opportunity to stand out and, you know, have something for your customers to, to get behind in terms of like, okay, yeah, the, this recruitment partner can help us, but actually they're also impacting the things that we care about, that we want to get behind as well. So have you found it positively impact the commercial side of the business?

Uh, yeah, it does have a positive impact on that side as well because you've actually got a USP, right? We did B Corp before most other recruitment companies. We must have been in the first, like, 1% of recruitment companies that did that. So that was super critical, crucial. But it's a community as well. So we've got suppliers who give discounts if you're B Corp. We give discounts to our clients that we work with if they're B Corp accredited. So we give them a 10% discount on their fees if they're B Corp accredited too. So yeah, it does have a selling point, but I found that out from one of my clients. I was speaking to one of our CEOs who works within energy storage. He told me about this. He was from America and it's quite big in America at the time. It wasn't very big in the UK and he explained it to me. I went on the website and we were doing all of the elements of B Corp. Already, so it was a given. So we did all of that stuff internally within the company and externally. So I was like, well, we've got to do this as well, right?

So yeah, because how, how, um, how long did it take?

Oh, there's a lot of admin.

Yeah, a lot of people said it's quite— there's a lot you've got to go through. Yeah, not like—

took about a year. Yeah, in total from start to finish. So, uh, we didn't have an operations person at the time either, so me and Simon would have to spend like Friday afternoons going through all this paperwork. So Um, and then documenting everything because like we did everything but sometimes we didn't have the policies in place and like the forms and such forth, so we had to create all those as well.

And then how much has it helped— like you're talking about the, the type of business that you wanted to build, the vision— like how much has that helped you and, um, Simon when it comes to like getting people on the journey, getting the most out of people, even like I guess, you know, when you and someone maybe experience setbacks and yeah because I think sometimes these types of things you're talking about can be like missed when you're like, oh, all I've got to worry about is getting deals in the bank. But actually, you've— like you said at the beginning, before you even started, you tried to document a lot of your processes, how you did things. You also think about your vision, the type of business that you wanted to, to build. Like, how much do you think that's helped you in this short journey so far? Just captivate people, get people on the journey, and yeah, people want to work for a company that stands for something, right?

Just don't want to go to a job and like the company doesn't stand for anything, there's no purpose. Like, we wanted a purpose, and luckily that links into the markets we work, work in as well. So yeah, that's, that's super critical.

Yeah, I think sometimes that, that can be, that can be missed by people. Um, why did you really— was it just natural to you to— like, when we prepared for this, you were saying that literally in that garden leave you started to document like how you qualify candidates, your interview process, like your sales process. Like, was that— like, why did you do that? Was that quite a natural—

because we wanted to set a standard, uh, internally and externally. So like for our candidates and clients. So if everyone's following the same formula, like when you set up a McDonald's franchise, right, you get people in, plug and play, follow this formula. We've done it for 10 years, we know it works, right? So we want to give our candidates the best possible service. So we created loads of interview documents so we could play email templates, uh, on our website We've got links to top tips for your interview, top 10 interview questions. We build that in the templates and that goes out to every single one of our candidates. So our candidates are always commenting, oh, that's above and beyond, right? So they spread the word, they then tell their peers, and then when they become hiring managers, they want to work with us because we go that extra mile. That was so important to us. You can't just hire— say you're hiring grads, they come into the industry, they don't have too much knowledge at the time, right? They need to be able to follow a set structure for a period of a year or so. Until they get the competencies and capabilities to be able to do that, right?

Yeah.

So that was super important. We document everything that you need to say in an interview preparation to the candidate as well. So one of the things in recruitment, if you find a good candidate, yeah, you get them an interview, it's pivotal that you're spending time helping that candidate prepare. Sometimes that candidate hasn't been in an interview process for 10+ years or 5 years, right? So then you're the expert in interviewing and how to prepare for interview. So You've got to spend the time nurturing that candidate through the process and making sure that he's presenting himself the best way possible. What's the point in putting forward and turning it off and absolutely flopping? Like, you've wasted all that time. Like, you could have gotten the job if you just spent a bit of time helping him through the process, right?

Yeah.

So that's key.

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Now, I think honestly, like, just really want to highlight how smart that is, because as you know, with, with the business that I have, a lot of the companies that we partner with are of like your size, 5 to like 30. And so many companies that I speak to, they might be, you know, 2 years in, 3 years, and sometimes longer. And a lot of this stuff that you're talking about is in like people's heads.

Yeah.

And it's not documented.

Yeah.

It's so— like, I honestly think that's— I think I just really want to highlight that because I think wherever you are on your journey, and it sounds like you've tried to do this from the beginning, is have things in place and do things that maybe you don't need just yet, but you're gonna thank yourself for in a year, 2 years' time.

Yeah, of course, because these documents as well, they always evolve. So the document that we had in 2020 is not the same document we have, have now, right? So obviously listening to the pod you get loads of good ideas from other recruitment owners, managers, consultants, and then add little snippets in, right? You can't have the same document that you had 4 years ago. That's not, that's not evolved, right? Everything has to evolve and get better. Then if you're just building a doc 3 years into your business, you've probably forgot all the fundamentals that you started with, right? So just adding layers on top of each process is critical.

And then just, just quickly on that to round that out, like what How have you— it might have evolved over time, but did you just get this all on like, you know, Microsoft Word documents or like—

yeah, so we've got, we've got, we've built a OneNote and it's got different, um, like folders in. So we've got like a client folder, a candidate folder, sales folder, internal doc folder, and just build out on there. So anyone, if they're doing a candidate piece, knows exactly what to do. Candidate call scripts here, candidate interview preparations here, candidate, uh, interview confirmations here.

So yeah, sounds like really, uh, obvious and, uh, basic, right? But some people don't do it, so I wanted to highlight that. That's, that's mega. What, um Talk to me about, like, with hindsight then, just the, this sort of first year in, in being an entrepreneur.

Yeah.

What were maybe the things that were more challenging than you expected? Like, I'm sure you, you backed yourself, your ability. What were some of the challenges that maybe you didn't anticipate?

Or, uh, to be honest, we didn't really have any challenges in the first few years. Like, it was, it was super easy. Like, we smashed out of the park. Like, growth was easy. Uh, the people we brought in were from our old company. They hit the ground running. We turned them from 100K billers into 300K+ billers now. It was just as you continue to grow and add different people in that maybe you don't know, and then the culture starts to shift slightly. So we've built this amazing brand around sustainability, giving back. That can attract sort of the wrong personality type. Because we still want to be a winner, right? So we still need to evolve. You still need to do better and try to improve year on year. But sometimes that sort of side of things maybe attracted people who didn't have that motivation. They were more interested in the giving back side more so than the high performance and giving back at the same time. So, and then when you get the wrong type of person in the business, then that sort of rubs off on the other people, like, and then it starts to affect— one person can affect a company massively. And you don't realise at the time, sometimes you, you keep people for longer than you should because you hope they're going to turn good. But you probably know within the first 4 weeks if they're going to be the right candidate for you. Sorry, Roddy, right employee for you.

So yeah, so what it sounds like then, if you're being honest, was there was a lot— you was doing a lot in the first couple of years that you'd be doing as an employee, right? Getting clients, doing deals. Like you said, like a lot of people do, they then— which I'm sure companies hate, but it's part of the game— you then bring along people on the journey that maybe you worked with, that you trust, you know what you're going to get.

Yeah.

So really, yeah, the, the things that you've had to learn along the way, get better at challenges, have been when you started, like you said, add people that weren't in maybe your immediate network.

Yeah.

Okay, fair.

And it's— so we, um, recently started using this, uh, psychology test around sales, ACROMAN. So it tests like your resolve, setbacks, like how you bounce back from those. And since we started using that, our performance of new employees has gone up through the roof because you know what you're getting, right? Before they turn up, they do a good interview, you think, oh yeah, they're going to be decent. But like when it comes down to it, they're getting setbacks, they're not bouncing back, they're not doing the activity. Like you can't test that. But now we found this really good sales test that some, I think it's called SQL Gold, which has super helped with our hiring process.

You have more of like a scientific elements.

Yeah, on top of, on top of what you're doing anyway with the interview questions.

Yeah, so I guess we're talking about some of the challenges being like, yeah, getting the internal hires, hiring right, which is obviously just always a common challenge. So what, what does that look like now then? So you've just added that element. What did the process look like? Because I'm sure you refine this.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So like the interview questions have evolved massively over the years as well because they've got a link back to what we're trying to achieve. So our standards internally about how we communicate with each other, treating each other with respect, but also that willingness to always improve. So I need to know what your why is. Why are you working? Like, what are you doing to evolve? What are you doing outside of work to become a better version of yourself? If you can't articulate those, you're not going to be the right person for us. So there's certain people who would work very well in certain companies, and there's certain people who work well in others, right? So You've got to try and find the people that are going to work well in your organisation by tailoring those interview questions to make sure that you're getting the right person. You want to sort of, they want to interview you as much as you want to interview them. And you need to push back and understand if they are going to feel comfortable working in that environment also. Because we have a, we manage KPIs quite heavily because activity always wins. Like hands down, that is key. So we, we say that in the interview. They, they need to know what they're coming into. I don't want someone to join and think, oh, this, this isn't what I wanted. So they— that needs to be clear at the outset, right? No surprises when you turn up.

So yeah, I think again, a really, um, common thing that I've met— I had— it actually came up in, um, I don't know if you listen to it, but there's an interview with a guy called Alex Elliott, and he said that sometimes what's missed is like, let's just say that the core things that you want in your hires, because this is what you want, is coachability, resilience, whatever. Like, do your questions match up to trying to uncover that in that person, right? Again, it's a simple thing, but sometimes you can just fall into the habit of sitting down in front of you and, you know, just doing the typical things. Yeah, I think actually he could really work, rather than really digging for the specifics that you're looking for.

Yeah, exactly.

So how— just quickly on, on that then, so what, what does the interview process look right now then? Because it sounds like you refined it. So am I having like an initial initial call?

Yes.

So what does that look like?

Probably do an initial call with, uh, what, our business development guy Adam? Yeah, he's, uh, very good at sussing out and probing people quite hard in that initial call. So he'd do like a 15 to 30 minute, uh, call with them. If he thinks they're good enough, they come through to a face-to-face, uh, with me and my co-founder, and then probably Adam as well. Yeah, or one of the other leadership team. Um, they'd then come in, we've got a set interview, uh, process. All the questions are the same every time. Uh, then we scored them on that metric. Um, then if they passed that, we would then get them to do the, um, SOWS psychometric testing to make sure that they, uh, hit the relevant score, that they, that they are what they say they are.

And then what do you mean aside from that? If you're gonna—

yeah, they don't pass the test, we won't hire them.

Yeah, that's it. That's, that's, that'd be really helpful with people having— yeah, again, the key bit there is like having the same questions.

Yeah, yeah. So everyone knows.

Yeah, exactly.

And across the business, right? So you're a bit bigger business um, you've got loads of different teams, everyone needs to follow the same, same script.

Yeah, no, totally. So you mentioned— so two things I want to touch on then from what you said. So I'd love to hear your thoughts. Again, this might have evolved. Yeah, you said, um, the, the KPIs piece. I'm, I'm a huge advocate for, uh, just making sure that you're measuring things. Like, you can't improve anything you don't measure.

Yeah.

So I think I'm— I've said this many a time and we'll continue to say it, but when people get scared of KPIs, it's just because they're, they're viewing it from the perspective of them being, um, used and managed in the wrong way.

Yeah.

Um, they don't understand why those KPIs are in place, or they don't really understand, okay, if I hit these certain metrics, that should mean I can achieve my goals. Like, that— I haven't met, you know, a top-performing recruiter that doesn't want to know how to be successful, right? And that's what KPIs are there for. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on, like, what What does your sort of KPIs dashboard look like? What are like the things you look at around performance?

Yeah, KPIs are a metric of measurement, right? So like if you go to the gym and you've got your logbook, you log down what weights you've done that day, right? So then you can come back the next week and then go again, try and beat that. So the key ones we do, we focus on video calls. That's super important. Getting your client on a face-to-face Zoom or Microsoft Teams call is critical, right? FaceTime, it trumps doing a client call. So we target them on that, target them on client calls. Spec CVs is really big because it opens up a lot of new BD clients working with new logos. So at the beginning of each quarter, they have to come with a plan of 5 new logos that they're going to target over the course of the quarter. And then there'd be metrics within that. So they'd have to get a video call with them or term signed and obviously hopefully a deal at the end of the, end of the quarter with that as well. So, um, yeah, but CVs is king. CVs. If you don't know, getting your 6 CVs out a week to your jobs. CV, no CVs, no money. That's what I say. Like, you ain't gonna make money unless you get CVs out the door, right?

So it's a video call, meetings, um, love that one. That's a really good one. Um, then obviously client calls. What do you mean by that? Making BD calls?

Yeah, they're BD, but they're only measured on BD, uh, new BD. So, uh, if you're doing a process call, that doesn't count as a log.

Right. Yeah.

That would just go down as a journal note. We need 16 new contacts that you're speaking to. Yeah. So we also do a 10 by 10 quite often. Simon Brown, who come into the business, been on your pod a couple of times, has really advocated the 10 by 10, which has really transformed a lot of what we do. Getting people doing voice notes, it's unheard of. People don't do that in the industry, right? So you go on LinkedIn, pop them a voice note. Um, if they're in different time zones, they get the voice note when— so we're doing it yesterday, we did American Day, so we're doing voice notes in the morning. They were waking up to our voice note, right? Let's jump on a call today. So, uh, proper homing in on, uh, different techniques to open up clients as well. Can't just go down the same avenue doing the same stuff all the time. So cold calling does work, but you need other avenues in, right?

Yeah. No, I love this because like, again, by because, you know, you've said very specific numbers there because I'm sure you've seen like if your top performers, they're probably doing, what do you say, 16 calls a week on average, the number of video calls, and that all tracks back to— yeah, if you end up around here, you're probably going to hit your ratios, isn't it?

Yeah, like you need to know what your ratios are. When you first start, your, um, KPIs have got to be a lot higher because you need to churn out a lot more work to get the rewards at the bottom. Um, but the most successful recruiters are doing video calls all the time, right? Meeting after meeting. I think one of, uh, someone who come on the pod the other week said about that, that's crucial, right? When you go on to do a job order form with a client, when you're picking up a job, you need to have scheduled in the next meeting. If you've not done that, then you've done a bad job. Like, how are you going to review those CVs? You've got no commitment from them. You're hoping they're going to come back to you. But if you've locked that time in the diary for this time next week, we're going to come on the— come on this video call, I'm going to review what I've done so far, I'm going to tell you about the mark— what the market is saying about this job, then you're gonna— the chance of you filling that job, it's gone through the roof.

So let's get into something that I know you're passionate about then, because we're talking about performance here, or indicators to success. Why don't we just start with— so like you said, the big thing that you've said to me multiple times is around turning like good to great, right? So, you know, if I'm listen to this right now, I'm a, you know, $150,000-$200,000 biller, where, like, from your experience, where do you think some of the, the gaps are going to be from what you've seen that you think are maybe holding me back from being a $300,000-$400,000+ biller?

Where, where's a lot of this mentality, right? So everyone's got a baseline. So say they didn't have a manager, they could bill X amount, right? So I've got no manager, plod along, do do a good job, bill £160,000. The manager needs to be getting an extra £50,000 or £100,000 out of that person, right? That's what they're paid to do. If they're not doing that, then what are you doing? You need to get peak performance out of your employees. We've created the perfect formula. We've got a good tech stack that helps. So I'll take away all the excuses. Like, you've got the best tech stack in the game, you've got LinkedIn Recruiter, you've got SourceBreaker, you've got SourceWow. Like, you can't use that as an excuse. I then give them the best brand possible. So we've got an excellent brand, we've got amazing USPs, so you can't fall back on that either, right? So then it's about activity, so, and keeping each other accountable. That's really key. So we bring in lots of external trainers, we're always trying to upskill, we're putting them on courses, or we obviously use Hector as well. Yeah, that's crucial. Like, you have to be constantly learning. Like, if you can't be happy with the level you're at, you want to be moving up the level, right? So that's key— keeping each other accountable, setting those standards, and upholding those standards. That's critical.

So it sounds like then what you found is it's more of a personal mindset that might be holding people back.

Yeah, we also, um, what we did from day one is provide a performance coach. So She, they have a 1-month session with her and they can talk about their personal life, their goals in their personal life, and also their goals in work. We don't know what they say, but have it, everything interlinks back to work, right? So say you want that nice holiday, you've got to perform well at work. Say you're having a tough time outside of work, you need that support there that you can then perform in work. So having that, that really helps as well. Because they've got a sounding board away from your manager and away from your boss, because sometimes you want to talk about personal stuff that maybe you don't want to share with your boss. Yeah. So, um, yeah, having that, that helps massively as well.

Okay, so definitely a core element of it is just my own mindset, wanting to learn, improve, wanting to get better. What else have you like probably consistently seen? Like, I'm sure there's other things where if we get into like— if we were to— if you were to break down my recruitment desk, yeah, and I'm coming to you saying like, you know, I really like the opportunity of joining you guys. You know, I'm the top performer currently, I'm doing £180K a year. I don't really understand how I can take that and double it. Like, I've done that for the last, you know, 2 years. I do feel like, Chris, I've got the mindset. I do want to, you know, improve. I want to keep getting better. Where, you know, where are you maybe going to take me or what we're going to sort of look at that maybe could unlock like more out of like what I think is possible? Do you know what I mean? What are some of the common things there? Yeah. So remove the limits.

Limitations. So like, if you're only billing at 180, you've got a limitation that that's your limitation. Uh, you see it time and time in recruitment, like people do really well and then they have a dip off because they, they take their foot off the gas. If you keep your foot on the gas and you've got someone who's keeping you accountable, and then when they can see that your KPIs are dropping or that you're, you're not quite on it for a week and then another week, like, and no one's, no one's calling you out on that, then that's going to drop, right? So having that accountability But having those processes in place and then learning from other peers that are at the top of their game. So like if you're surrounded by high performers and then what's really important is when you're recruiting in a certain niche, just say you're doing sales managers, right? Yeah. You want to work your way up the, up the tiers, right? Until— so you go from sales manager, then you want to be working sales director roles, then you want to be working VP roles, then you want to be working C-suite roles. You don't want to stop until you're working with private equity or venture capital companies or with the board, right? So you need to start, if you're starting at the bottom, you need to start going through the ranks. That's key. You need to go, you need to go up levels. So if you're working roles at say 60K, you want to start working roles that are like 80K, then 100K. And then like the fees are obviously bigger. It's not, it's not any harder to recruit. It's just articulating yourself better when you're having your client meetings and then putting the faith in you. But you're speaking to those hiring decision makers. So say you're working sales managers, you're speaking to sales directors, flip the call like, oh, are you looking for a job? Like, and then, then use that to try and get to the tier above. That, that's key.

So that, yeah, I was in— yes, I'm not surprised that you said that because obviously then the result of that is your average deal size probably goes up.

Yeah, you can't be happy with a deal size that's like 6 to 10K. What, what are you doing that Like, you can— you, you have to, you have to be at work, right? 35 to 40 hours a week. So you can turn up, you can get paid 30 to 40K, or you can turn up and get paid 100K and do the same hours. Like, it's a no-brainer that you give 110% to get to 100K.

Let's just talk about that for a sec because I think that'd be helpful for people, if you don't mind. So I know, I completely understand what you're saying. One of the routes to you getting more out of your desk is, as we said, like not getting complacent or just, uh, used to like just doing the same old roles that you do. And how can— this should, you know, apply for most industries— how can you go from, yeah, doing the current roles that you normally do now, going up the org chart and doing the next role above, right? How, like, what have you seen to be the most effective way to do that? So you've just said the next time you're on with your hiring manager, like, you know, can you be confident enough to say like you know, how are you finding things and what you're doing, right? Because I guess what you're saying there is if you can start building your talent pool with those people and actually have quote-unquote candidate conversations with them, then they're going to be people that are going to be able to present and speak to other companies about. But how do you become known for— like, I think sometimes people think like, how am I going to become known? Like, I'm sort of pigeonholed, like I do these types of roles, so how, how can I get better at saying, well, Chris, you know, we do this, I can also help on the sales director role. But they go, well, How many of those have you done? You haven't done— yeah, do you know what I mean?

No, no, of course you've got to, you've got to build up a good pool of, uh, candidates, the tier above, right? So start speaking to all of those, uh, sales directors, for example, understanding what's going on in the market, what they look for. You need to understand the questions that they want from their jobs as well. So they're going to want specific remuneration, specific kickbacks. So you need to understand what that level candidate wants when he goes to market, okay, and what's going on in the market, who they'd be interested in joining. And if you give them a good service, they know that you're a good recruitment consultant, they're going to come to you when they want a job. So they, they might not know loads of other recruitment companies. If you're working in a specific niche and you're doing a good service and a good job for them, why wouldn't they come and speak to you when they're looking for a job?

How So, okay, just, just on that, like, because we're talking about really, um, what— I don't know what you would call it, but I feel like a lot of people just call that like candidate fit, like just flip calls, BD flip calls or whatever. Like, how can we do that in, in the right way? What's the best way to do that? Do you know what I mean? Because I feel like if you're not, you're not going to ask those types of questions if you're like taking a job brief, are you? Or are you?

I don't know. Uh, no, probably on a job brief.

No, no, no. What's like the effective way to do that? Is it— I don't know, do you pick up on things?

You can probe a little bit, can't you?

Because when you take the job brief, you can understand like the culture. Tell me about the culture. Why did you join? What do you like working for here? If you can get a few rumblings, if he's not overly happy, right? Um, so, so doing that, um, and it was— sorry, it was a—

I'm just saying, like, because I think what you're talking about there is how we can get up the org chart is by having a talent pool and understanding what these people want, what's important to them in their role. So I guess I was just asking you, like, how, how can we effectively do these like, you know, BD flip calls where, you know, we might be prospecting these people, but actually we end up talking to them about their career and their job.

Just an easy transition is if you're doing a candidate call and BD call, I wouldn't be doing my job properly if I didn't ask you about your situation. Or the other way around, I wouldn't be doing my job properly if I didn't ask you about your team and if you're recruiting. It's just an easy transition, like, then it's everything's on the table. They know you're not being sneaky and trying to get intel.

And then I think the other thing that sometimes— this might even held me back when I did it, even though if I'm honest, I are you just get used to what you've normally done?

Yeah, of course, in terms of the content that you do.

Yeah. So, but like, have you— I know you just sort of said it off the cuff, but have you— I say this now to people, but have you genuinely found that, you know, as you go up that org chart, a lot of the time there isn't massive differences? Do you know what I mean?

There's no difference. It's the same concept. You're still finding a candidate. Like, recruitment's grown-up Snap, right? So you get a job, you understand the full job the culture that they want, then you go and find the candidate and match that up, right? There's no difference. And when they're at the higher level and you're getting paid a lot more money, you don't get messed around a lot either. They're serious. Why would you take time out of your day or your week? You're super busy to go to an interview that you're not going to, you're not going to take the job. Like they don't mess you around as much. You have more time to work with better candidates and do a better service.

And then just, just to round that out then, if I was listening to this right now and I'm like, you know what, actually that is, that is the route that I can see to getting another 50% out of my billings this year, desks this year, what, like, where, where's like the first step to start? Is it maybe just taking a bit of a step back and looking at the hiring manager that you deal with and these, like, where's the first step?

Start with the companies, uh, the people that you deal with already. That's the easiest route to market, right? You've already got a relationship with them, you've probably already built some trust. Start there. Then you need to diversify and then try and target some companies, so your new logos that you're going after. Then look at the candidate pool, like what's going on in the market, like speak to as many candidates as possible, um, and then build it up from there. Like, you need to be networking constantly. If you're not networking, then you're never going to go up to be able to go to that tier because You need to ask that candidate who his boss is, right? So say you're speaking to the sales director, oh, who, who's your boss? And then you need to go upper tier above him, so then you can start working those roles.

Yeah.

If you're not finding out the right people, then you're never going to be a success. And getting, uh, finding a really strong candidate that wants a new opportunity, taking that candidate to market, then that's getting your name out there that you know what you're doing in your niche, and this is a candidate that that could make an impact on a business.

Yeah, and you're presenting the different types of people.

You're showing your worth.

Yeah.

Right, if you're taking a spec to market, it shows your worth for me.

So from the beginning, have you always— because I don't think I mentioned it at the start, but obviously you're really quite diversified in terms of the different markets that you operate in. Yeah. So I think I've got here, yeah, 20% UK, 40% mainland Europe, and then another 20% in APAC, 20% in the US. Has that always been the case?

Yeah, that's always been the case. So Also looking at hubs that are key hubs across the globe where maybe salaries are bigger. So like we do a lot of work in the US at the moment. So the last 6 months that's gone through the roof. So a salary in the, say, UK that may be $60K, in the US it's $120K. The candidate's still the same caliber of candidate and you're getting paid like double the fee. Like they're not too fee sensitive at all in the US either. And then you can give them a really good service. They actually respect recruiters a lot more as well. So Finding other locations where the salaries are better, the candidates are easier to deal with, um, is, is crucial. And you wanted to diversify as well, because sometimes there are slight downturns in certain countries and certain markets. If you work in multiple different locations in multiple different time zones, you've diversified.

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I think let's just talk about this for a sec because as I said to you before we started this, a lot of, um, people— I mean, it's been, it's been like this for a while, but I would definitely say it's definitely upped over the last 6 or so months in terms of a lot of people being, um, curious and wanting to focus on, on the US because some of the things that you just said.

Yeah.

So I don't know, I don't know if you'd agree with this, but I'd love to, um, just hear a bit about what you found, uh, work and what hasn't worked when it comes to like getting success there. But what I've said to people is the— from the people that I've interviewed, the, the US market, it, you know, it can be just as hard. Yes, there's— there should be a lot less competition, um, these types of things, but it's just as hard. But the payoffs are like— could be 3, 4, 5 times more.

Yeah, 100%.

Because I think sometimes when I do speak to people, they sort of view it as like a silver bullet. I don't— I think that's the wrong way to view it, is you're still gonna have to work really hard, deliver a great service. It's still hard. Yeah. But like you just said your payoff could be 20% of £120K rather than 20% of £60K.

It's usually outside of your working hours as well. So sometimes you have to put in a few extra calls at the end of your day. So one of the girls in our team's doing absolutely fantastic at the moment, but clients on the West Coast, so she's having to take calls like late in the evening, but the fees are like £40K, £50K.

Yeah.

Like for— and she's doing a fantastic job there. So, but you need to be specific, right? You can't just go, I'm going to go and work in America. You need to map out what clients you're going after. So using data like Talent Insights, understanding where the hiring growth is, who's got investment. You can't just go into a market and go, I'm just going to do this market now. You need to know who you're targeting. So like, I'd probably pick out 10 key players. You're not going to get into all 10, right? So then we've got an excellent marketer in our business who really helps with outreach. So our consultants will say, right, I want to go after these 10 clients, and then here, just bang out loads of Sourceroute campaigns to all of the stakeholders within these organisations as door openers. Then they ping back leads to the consultants and go, right, they've interacted with our marketing material, they're warm, they know who we are, go after that. So it's a two-pronged approach with the consultants and the marketing team. That's really important.

You have to tell us a bit about that, mate.

Yeah.

So what sort of things is he like? Leading with then? Like, because, yeah, like, is he leading with salary surveys, talent?

Uh, so on Talent Insights, it's obviously a bit about attrition. Should we talk about attrition? We talk around who their competitors are, um, what their sort of attrition rates are. Um, we then sell some of our other products. So we've got like an executive search platform, so we're dropping some videos there. Uh, yeah, we go at different angles, like what's going to work for one company might not work for the other company, right? It might actually get shot down and be like, that's awful, don't send me anything like that again. Yeah, but for another company, it might be like, oh, thanks for sharing that, let's jump on a call. So you can't be put off by marketing that doesn't land right with certain companies. You can't just stop it. Like, yeah, marketing's about, um, being disruptive, and if you're not being disruptive, your marketing's probably pretty average, right?

And how long have you had it set up that way in terms of the, the marketers helping.

So they've really built up— so we also give them commission. So our market— sorry, we've only got one marketer now, but he gets commission. So any leads he brings in that we convert, he gets kickback on that. So yeah, yeah, because why wouldn't you want to reward him for doing such a great job?

Again, it's like matching up the right incentive, right?

Yeah. And he really drives the consultants. He sends the leads out. If they've not followed up, he's on them, like, which is fantastic. Yeah, of course. But yeah, But something like write the copy, stuff like that. Yeah, he writes all the copy. Um, yeah, he mixes up his, uh, Simon Brown helps a lot with that. So he's coming with loads of good marketing techniques, and then Matt's run with it and done a fantastic job.

It's class. So because the cool thing with Sourcewell you can do is like, I can— he can do that and then have the emails be sent from you.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's what he does. It has to come from the consultant, so it adds more power, right?

But he— you're— what you're removing is the excuse of your team going, I haven't like, I'm not good at writing stuff for these things, right? So I think that's super smart.

Yeah, so you've got to use everyone in the business to utilize their strengths and get the most out of them.

And like, how— you've done quite a few different, like, markets. Like, how, how would you describe, like, the US market? Like, how— you know, you've done obviously a lot in the UK, you've been UK-based. So like, how would you describe the US market? Like, what, what are the opportunities there that you see? Yes, from what you've done so far, super hot at the moment.

So especially in, uh, renewable Right. So we're doing a lot within solar energy storage over there at the moment. It's just going wild. So they've got so much investment. So that's obviously where most of the venture capital is, most of the private equity companies. So they pump in a lot of money. These, we, we tend to focus on companies that are between 0 to 15 employ— not 0, but 0 to 15 employees basically. So they're on a growth phase, right? So they probably haven't got an HR function, they haven't got an internal recruiter, and they need support scaling, right? They need the right senior level executives to help them scale. So that's the niche that we focus on. We don't want to work with these established companies because they probably understand how to recruit. So the opportunity that is over there, what is wild, but you need to do some research. You can't just dive straight in.

Yeah, you've got, yeah, it's got, you've got to reverse engineer from like the exact types of companies that you can work with.

Specs work well in America as well. So finding real hot talent and Americans love to talk. So you can usually get a lot of information out of them as well around who they're interviewing with what other processes they're in, what's going on in their organisation. So just getting them on the phone and getting as much information about them as possible.

And has there been any, like, nuances that you've had to figure out? Like, I don't know, is there anything you've had to—

No, no, it's pretty straightforward. It's the same, same as over here.

And like, if I was— how— I don't know what— had you done the US from the start?

Yeah, we've always done US. In maritime, it's not as big. Um, but in, in the renewable sector, that's, that's where it's kicking off.

I was gonna say, I don't know if you can comment on this, but, um, I mean, you could, you know, there's a lot of different geographies that you do here.

Yeah.

If you've got like the right plan, the right processes, what do you think is like a fair amount of time for you to be like, hang on, we might need to look at my strategy here because it's not working? Like, how long would you give yourself to start seeing some success? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I think 3 to 6 months, but it's always best to have 2 recruiters working on a desk so they can bounce off each other. Uh, it's super hard if you've just got one person, uh, slugging it out. So having two people there, then you want to build success. You want the case studies. Case studies are key. That's what a marketer does as well. So when we make a placement with a company in America, for example, we then jump on the back of that, get a case study from the client, get that pumped out to their competitors and say, this is what we've just done with your competitor. Would you want— do you want to chat? Like, we can do this for you. Like That, that's key. You need to have success stories. If you've got no success stories, how are you gonna— what are you selling?

Like, do you think 3 to 6 months is a fair amount of window where if you haven't done any sort of placement or anything like that, you'd start questioning about—

yeah, you've got to do a lot of legwork. So there's a lot of grunt work that you have to do at the front end when you're trying to build a new market, right? So you get a lot of kickbacks, you get a few wins, um, and then once you've built up that foundation, that's when you're going to go start seeing that success in like 6 months, 6 months' time.

6 months plus.

Yeah.

Fair.

But you need some easy, you need some quick wins in there as well, that there are some signs of success and growth that this is, this is going to happen.

So what, you'd be a bit worried if I was like, I hadn't done like a deal in 6 months?

Well, not deal, but as long as you've got terms agreed with companies, you build like indicators or— Yeah. You've built up a bit of a network, um, you've got like video calls constantly with clients, and you've built up a good pool of candidates. That's critical.

Yeah, cool. Got you.

We need some milestones to measure, right?

So what, um, like what's top of mind for you and your business then in terms of like what are some of the things that you're having to do differently this year that's going to break the £2 million mark? Like what, what the— how are you thinking about that? What are you really doubling down on or feeling, or what do you think you've had to do maybe differently this year?

Well, incorporating the marketing piece has been, been amazing. That's, that's like super helped the consultants. They're really on board with that as well. Um, we've done a pricing plan as well. The pricing model works super well. So we've got our executive search model that's at 30%. Um, it's on our website and it's got all of the features that you get with that. So people talk about, uh, their percentages, but I don't think they understand what you get with each one. So we make it very clear, 30%, you get all of these features. 25%, you get all of these features. And then 22.5% is our lowest bracket, which is usually contingent. And that's what you get with that. So people have to be able to sell stuff. And when you're negotiating, you have to take elements away. So say the client wants a lesser fee, you can't— you have to say we give 12-month free replacement. They want a lesser fee, that's coming down to 6 months. Or you have to— that's negotiation. You have to take something away if they want to take something away from you.

What are some of the— I think people would be interested in, like, again, like, this is really great stuff that you're, you're doing, um, in terms of just having it all broken down like that. Like, that makes it a lot more easier for your recruiters to negotiate, to successfully, um, sign terms of companies. I think when I, like, I think back when I was trying to negotiate terms, I didn't have anything like that. It was just like trying to get the best percentage that you can and you just have your normal time. So What were, what are some of the, like, uh, you know, that's go through all of them, but what, what are some like in the middle tier there? What are some of like the core features that you think really make, yeah, like really sell that, or like the, the really important features out of interest?

Well, yeah, we're going back to, we obviously plant a tree for every placement. That's, that's, that's really big. Clients love that. We, um, in our middle tier, we give them a video assessment. So we've got an executive and, uh, search platform which comes with video assessment, psychometric testing, and the client can also upload video questions on there because so it can be a live scenario. I would also do a report on the search. They'd get a discount if they're B Corp certified. So there's a, there's a long list of things that they're going to get, get for that, and then they get a 6-month free replacement. So, and 110% rebate if they leave within, in the 8 weeks.

And have you evolved that over time? Because I feel like that's, that's really great that you've like built that whole like, I think that's just so clever to do that, actually built because this is the great thing that you can do when it's your business. You can do— you can try these things, you can create these things right around, and you figure out what's really impactful and valuable for the end user, for the, for the customer.

Yeah, so we've built it for the end customer, but it also helps with the negotiation. So the consultants are sending over the pricing plan, so they're not just sending over the terms, right? Here's the pricing plan, tell me which one works for you, right? And then they come back and go, uh, we don't need the video assessment and such forth, we'll just go for the 22.5%. So instead of your fees being at 15%, they're now at 22.5% because they can't go lower than that. Right. So that's super critical.

And what are like the core features of the lowest one? That's typical contingent. What are the main things?

110% rebate.

Yeah.

Free replacement up to 3 months. Plant a tree. B Corp discount. Just the standard. It's a standard contingent role, but you get more for your money. We donate to Renewable World as well.

Yeah.

There's lots of Lots of plus points. It's not just your recruiters just send you a CV, right?

Yeah.

So, and we do the, the follow-up, that's super key. So that's— and we've got SLAs as well. So when we take, pick up a role, uh, we send over our SLAs of what we will do for them, the client, and what we expect back from them. So like feedback around CVs within 3 days, like, and we will commit to being on a video call with you once a week. And it goes, but goes both ways. It needs to be a two-way thing, right?

Yeah, that's class. That's, that's really good. Again, we're back to process and yeah, it's so powerful. So breaking $2 million, marketing and getting that really going.

Yeah.

Um, having him really empower the consultants, take some of that heavy lifting. Yeah, stuff like that.

Double down on US as well.

Yeah, obviously then we're talking about the pricing model, making sure everyone's clear on like what each package or pricing involves, how you can leverage those, and building that out. And then what you're saying, so then another thing to break in that is going to be the US.

Yeah, just focus on the US. And we try to uplift everyone in our business. So we've got an excellent business development manager who really helps support the guys with it. So we've got two, like, one of the leaders as well. She's fantastic at doing video calls. So them doing training, we do a kickoff every single week. Simon, my co-founder, is doing an amazing job at the moment. He's doing the Sandler training.

Okay.

And then he's coming back to the business, giving top tips around how to present yourself on video calls, how to negotiate, how to have an equal business standing, right? So a lot of consultants go on calls sometimes and they're subservient to the client, but that's not the right way to be. You've got to be at equal business standing. And he's really implementing that across the business, which is key, but empowering all your staff members. So The best ideas come from them most of the time, and then feeding you and then going, yeah, that's a good idea, or maybe not, that one's probably not right. But making sure that everyone's collectively pulling together for the end goal of hitting that 2 million. You have to drill those numbers in and go like, 2 million, where are we? Let's go again, let's come on, move the bar.

And what's your part to play? Like, how do you see that you can like impact the business yourself then in breaking that?

Yeah, so I work across both businesses at the moment being a player coach as well. So jumping on calls with them, Understanding where their bottlenecks are. They've got certain scenarios. I'll be like, try this. Like, a lot of the time their client might not be responding or something. So I'll be like, okay, why don't you try copying another stakeholder? Because then they're more likely to respond. Or they're not getting any feedback at all. Get the candidate to email the client with you in copy because the client always responds to the candidate. Just little tips and nuances like that. And just being aware of everything that's going on on the desk. Because consultants tend to get emotionally attached to certain processes, candidates. I'm quite good at— if they come to me with a scenario, I can break that down and take myself away from that attachment and then give them the advice that's best for the deal and the candidate and the client.

Yeah.

Because sometimes they go too far in, they've worked a process for too long, and they think they're going to get a reward at the end, but it's already dead, and then they just need to cut it off. But being honest with them and telling them how to manage stuff.

So again, back to like just really getting nurturing your existing talent, getting the most out of them, coaching.

Yeah, that's key because you can spend a lot of time, uh, on underperformers. That's, that was one of the mistakes that we had over the years. Like, you spend time with the underperformers that don't end up working out, end up leaving your business, when you could be nurturing the top performers, right? Getting more out of them, getting them an extra 50K, 100K. So then they're earning more money, they're having a better life, right? Or you could be spending time trying to shift the mindset of someone who you're never going to be able to shift their mindset. That's, that's their mindset. They've got a negative mindset, they don't want to improve, and you're just wasting energy and time on them. Like, why would you not spend it on the people that want to actually be the best version of themselves?

Yeah, for sure. See, I guess to wrap up then, we've got what is going to take us over this, this next milestone is Yeah, really getting marketing going, which we said. Yeah, we've got really your, your pricing model is broken down, nailed down, really clear on this is, you know, the products that we could take to the market. The US is key. And then really what I've, you know, always loved when I've spoken to you is just really committing to this living and breathing continuous improvement, leveling up. Like, you're doing it, your business partner's doing that, everyone's doing that, which should mean everyone is, is performing at least, you know, 20, 30, 40% better.

You need to bring expertise in as well, right? So me and Simon, yeah, good, good. But there's better people than us, right? So bring them into the business. Like, so we've got a top Ned that you recommended, it was fantastic. He's then recommended Simon Brown, who's come in and done a fantastic job, right? If me and Simon would've just done what we were doing, we wouldn't be able to accelerate the business as quick as we have. We've invested, we've paid money, good money, and then we've got the rewards off the back of it. You have to invest in an expert, right? That gets you to the, get the end goal much quicker than trying to work out yourself.

Love it. Well, look, Chris, absolute pleasure. Loved hearing about the Germans, love this passion and commitment to always, always improve, get better. So thanks so much for joining.

Thanks, buddy, been a pleasure.