The 5 Traits of Successful Recruitment Founders (Do You Have Them?) with Sean Anderson

This week's episode is going to be a special throwback collaboration. For those of you that didn't see on LinkedIn, I recently sat down with my old boss Sean Anderson, the co-founder of Huxo Media.

I reckon the industry's changed a lot since then, and the post-pandemic world, people's definition of successes is varied. Success is probably people have achieved or achieving what they genuinely want. That's how I would define it.

Between us, we have easily interviewed 500 successful recruitment founders on both of our podcasts. So we thought, why not? Let's put our heads together, let's compare notes and discuss what we have found to be the most common things we've seen in the successful recruitment founders that we've interviewed. The 5 most successful recruitment founders have the following in common: why the best founders have complete clarity on the type of business they want to build.

In a way, we're giving people a, a view into what all the different avenues available We're giving them access to people that have done what they want to do.

Why successful recruitment companies are sales organisations.

If I look at Hoxo now compared to when you were in it, it's a commercial engine. 3 members of staff don't have a commercial footprint. From sales and customer success to me, everyone's got a client-focused role where we're selling, we're upselling, we're cross-selling.

Why successful founders get out of their own way, especially if they want to scale.

There was a time where people didn't know who owned Hoxo and what you were and I were, and you probably felt that. Like, if I'm really gonna pop off, I'm gonna do it on my own. Again, it comes down to having a plan of what you want.

And so, so much more. Enjoy this week's episode. Sean, Hishem, uh, this is cool.

It's weird, but it's great. I'm excited.

No, it's nice to, um, obviously I know you do a lot of your— I saw obviously you did your some Face to Face podcast in Dubai, right?

Missed it, missed it a lot. You remember the— you remember the studio?

Yeah, of course.

Not the first one, the second one. What's the one in the pillbox?

No, I don't think— I don't think I did podcast in there.

I did though.

Don't you remember?

Yeah, you remember the room we did it in, like the conference room? That was the end of my— that was a long time ago, right? That was the last time I was doing it regularly in a room like this. And yeah, missed it, man, missed it. So I'm, uh, I planned on bringing it back this year to be like this every episode, and just with the baby and the life I've got, it just— it does not serve me to get out as much as I thought it would. But that'll be the plan at some point. But it's nice to be in your room, mate.

Yeah, it's nice.

Yeah, we're doing a collaborative episode, but we've agreed that you're gonna— you're gonna take more of a lead because—

oh yeah, I guess we're in your—

it's like, I feel like an away team. You're the home team, I've got an away performance, I've got to sit back and watch what the home team do.

All right, yeah, fair. Well, um, we said, didn't we— obviously we caught up at the expo and we thought, wouldn't it be a cool idea to record something together? And obviously because of the position that we're in Like, we've— if you think about collectively, me and you sat down with a lot of recruitment founders, let alone have— putting aside people we've had sales processes with where we find out about their business, all the networking events that we went to, obviously when, um, when we're doing stuff for TRN and all that, like, we have met a lot. Yeah. And we thought it'd be quite cool to come to this episode with notes on some of the things that we thought these people and companies and people that we've met have in common. And then, yeah, I guess just see where the conversation goes. Yeah, we wanted to— should we define— we thought— I've got here 5 common things in successful recruitment founders/companies, but should we define success or like start there?

Yeah, I thought that fits what I said. I put the 5 most common— the 5 most successful recruitment founders have the following in common. Okay, yeah, but when I say successful I think that, like, that is the most important thing. It's not just about revenue and headcount, which is probably where— if you look back to where our podcast started in— you were what, 2017, and I was 2019? I don't know, it just felt like a bit of a vanity project back then. It was like, I've got this much money and I've sold for this much and I've got this many heads. And I think the bit—

I think—

I don't know about what you think, but I reckon the industry's changed a lot since then. And the post-pandemic world, people's definition of success is is varied, and I think success is probably people have achieved or achieving what they genuinely want. That's how I would define it. Whether that's Tom Glanfield and, you know, selling LHI and skiing in the Alps every day— he sent me a picture of his feet with the view of the Alps the other day, really, his bed, which is weird, but that's Tom. Um, you know, or it's someone who's running a lifestyle business that's literally loving the fact they can pick up the kids every day. Like, I think I'll touch on different things, and I think that— I still think those two businesses, by the way, have a similar 5 ingredients. But I think the key to success is what it's— it's living the life or creating a business that actually works for you. Yeah, not what other people think.

Yeah, 100%. I, I definitely— when I thought about these 5 things, that's sort of what how I framed it as well. And I think that is a whole nother question and conversation itself, isn't it? Like figuring that out for yourself, because it can change, right? I feel like you've been on that journey as well. Like, things do change, don't they?

Yeah, well, I think if we look at our life, like if I take our relationship of working together in 2018, you know, we had an office in London, I was living in London, I was running a business that I did enjoy it, don't get me wrong, I loved what we— I knew we were on to something. Yeah, I think you knew Yeah, but I was probably running it in a way I felt like you had to run it.

That's a good way of framing it.

I don't remember ever working from home, do you? Like, we didn't have that. No, we used to trek in.

It was like, if I was like, I'm— I like— you wouldn't be like— you'd be fine with it. Yeah, but it wasn't like hybrid working.

No, you used to trek that diaz way through like the rougher stages.

Everyone did, didn't they?

Oh, some of the— I remember Mark Priestley had a fight with someone by the bins over some mechanic with a dog, and I was like, what is going on? But I think I ran it how I felt you had to run a business, which was you had to be in London, you had to get to the office, you had to have teams, and yet everything had to be like so physical and fixed. And, you know, you had to get a contract on an office, you had to get all these things. Now I think— I genuinely think the pandemic changed my life and changed the way I thought about things. And now the way I've set my life up, like, I'm happy. There's no doubt I'm happier with it.

Yeah, nice.

And so the business is serving what I want more than I'm serving what I think the business should be. What about you? How would you describe the Hector journey? Or—

yeah, no, it is— I do, if I'm honest, I'm always thinking about or trying to make sure that I've got like a clear anchor on like what success looks like. And like, for me, I do think it will change over time, but I just like to— I don't know about you, but I like to look at things just within a 12-month window, or like at the longest, a 24-month window. Yeah, like when I'm speaking to Jess about like, where do you want to be and where do you want to go, like we talk about this year and next year, because like beyond that, so much, like anything can change. So I feel like for me, with where I am in my life, it's like I want to— with me being in London and stuff, I think I want to really try and capitalize on that, which is why I want to do things like this face to face, or have an office and build that culture. But then as I If I'm honest, probably as I get older, I'll think about even more globally rather than locally. I think that's like a Daniel Priestley thing. I've been really digging his content again recently, and like, he just puts that global versus local. If you think of what you said, there's a lot more local is like—

well, if I look at my business now, it is truly global.

That's what I mean.

So today I'm in London because I'm hosting an event. I've got my new mastermind program, my group, and there's 2 people flying in from New York, there's 1 flying in from Dubai, there's people coming in from Ireland, like people in Australia in the group that can't make it, but I'm then going to Dubai in October to run an event. And like, yeah, that didn't really seem possible back then.

Exactly. Yeah, now it's way more normal, isn't it? So I feel like for me it's just I'm really happy with how things are, but I'm very aware that it, like, now isn't forever. Um, but yeah, I feel like everyone's on their own journey of figuring out what that success looks like. And I feel like once you've got more clarity on that, which is one of the things that I put on this, is like once you've got more clarity on it, your decision-making becomes a lot more easier. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you know you want to build, yeah, more of a remote-first business or whatever, then your decision-making around that is a lot easier. Whereas trying to figure out, should we do this, should we do that, it's just a lot more harder.

Well, that was number 1 on my list. Know what you want to create, because yeah, it doesn't matter what it is. There's no right or wrong way, whether you want to have 100 heads or be on your own, whether you want to be in an office, be hybrid. I think it's just knowing, knowing that, starting with the end of mind. From your experience, how often are current found— or how, how, how aware are current founders of that? If I go back to when I started Hoxo and the people I know started around me, I don't think you thought about much more than the first year, right? You didn't really think beyond just making money and not working for somebody else. Do you think it's still the same now, or do you think people are sitting down and writing more like business plans and thinking about their— that bigger picture from day one?

I think I'd probably not. I'd still say not, not as much as maybe— if I'm honest, I feel like what we're talking about now, business owners probably know they should do it, but it's just hard, isn't it, when you're in like the trenches and you're looking at your cash flow, or you haven't done a deal for a while. But, um, I'd probably say there's probably more aware awareness of it now. And like the story that journey that you've been on, I feel like there's, there's, there's more awareness around different options. And like, like you said before, if I start my own recruitment business, I'm maybe thinking about, should I get a grad? When should I get a grad in? When should I get them in the office, delivery consultant or whatever? But now when I do speak to founders, I think there's a lot more awareness around it could just be me, but then I could outsource some of the things. And like, there's just more options. But I do think my first one as well, to be fair, that's, that's interesting that you put it as well, but I put I guess to build on what you said, I put number 1, they have clarity on who they are, who they want to be, and they own this within their business. So I don't know if you saw this, but I definitely found this in my conversations, which I feel like people probably wouldn't put on LinkedIn. But come— like, these— a lot of companies like pandered to what they thought others wanted them to be. And I feel like when I spoke to founders when things got shit for them, that they're some of the first things that they change because they're like, hang on a minute, we've sort of lost our identity because we thought we wanted to be the most engaged. We wanted to be known as like all about mental health and all these things. And like, they just get wrapped up in all that, and then they lost like what they actually wanted to be. And then these founders look at their business and go, fucking hell, like, this isn't what— this isn't the type of business that I want. So that, that was my first one, to be fair. So I feel like the best founders that I've met with, or seem to be a lot more happier or overall more successful, is that they actually own that and and they don't like pander to what other people want.

What we do is actually helping and hindering that process. It is, because you, you know, in a way we're giving people a view into what all the different avenues available, which we're giving them access to people that have done what they want to do. And so, you know, the ability to learn and take action. And like, I've been listening to the James Blackwell episode you did.

Yeah.

And it's sparking things in my head that I'm already doing or I'm not doing, and you know, there's positives to that, but the negatives to that, or for— is, is comparison.

That's true. Yeah.

So I reckon everyone who listens to you and listens to me, you know, looks at, looks at the episode and thinks that, you know, am I as, am I as good as them? Like, that's the first thing that goes through the head. And if they don't, if the decision is not, that can also affect confidence. So it's leaning into what you've said. It's, it's knowing who you want to be, knowing who you are, owning it. And constantly going back to that in those moments, because you're going to constantly be comparing yourself. That's just natural. You're going to constantly come up against, meet competitors at events, being communities, listen to podcasts, learn, beg, borrow, steal. All those things are great, but keep going, especially when you feel like imposter syndrome or you feel like inferior. It's like sitting down and going, you know what, I'm actually on the right journey. I'll give you an example, right? So listen to George Eaton's podcast with Stephen Bartlett. Have you listened to that one from Represent? Fucking wicked, right? Yeah. And I'm probably listening to about 60% of the episode thinking, I am shit, because he's like, you know, his numbers are insane, 100 million. It's so, it's so impressive. And then he starts talking about his relationships. Yeah. And he talks about how he can't handle a date and he can't handle— well, he didn't want to call the person who's got his girlfriend, couldn't handle a date, hasn't ever worked for him. And I thought, you know what, that might make him happy, the way he puts 99% into work and he can't sustain a fan, a female, or, you know, a romantic relationship. But for me, my wife is so important. Like, the relationship I've got with my wife is incredible. I'm genuinely so grateful. I didn't have it with my ex, and you know that. I've seen the bad, I've now got the good. And like, I'm like, I left the episode thinking I'm winning.

Yeah, I get what you mean.

I'm like, I'm living the life. It actually reinforced why I make certain decisions. Like, I'm not coming down to London all the time because I you know, this morning I felt it when I left my wife and my daughter and my stepson and stuff. And, and so know what you want to create. Be prepared that people are going to push you into different directions, and people are going to sell you stuff, and people are going to inspire you to do things, and that's okay as well. But keep balance it, keep sense checking it back to what you said you want to do.

And then just to make it practical then, how often do you find yourself doing that? Because I'll be honest if I don't do that for a little while, I actually— that's when I probably struggle the most. Mental health, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm like— because you just get obsessed with like how things could be better, the challenges at hand, all that. But when it— whenever I haven't had that moment to go, no, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing, these are the sort of goals and what I want to create, I— you do instantly feel a bit lighter and have a bit more clarity.

I try and do it now nearly every day. Yeah, nearly every day. Because like, if you think about the amount of people I'm working with and you probably are, but if I look at my client base, they all think like they're shit on LinkedIn compared to other people. You know, it's one of the things they always say, like, I'm not as good as him, and I'm like, why do you care? So I'm telling them to go put that in a box. Look at— you've got 2,000 connections now, you want to get that to 3,000 to 4,000 to 5,000 to 6,000, and within that you want to educate them, nurture them, engage them, and turn that into more business, right? That— because someone else got 30,000, that doesn't actually change any part of what you've got to do. And so I'm, I'm very good at giving that kind of advice, and then I've got to give it back to myself.

It's a lot easier to give it, isn't it?

Yeah. And when, like, Alex Hormozi's content, I love it, but I actually have to turn him off because it, it messes with my— fucks my ego. Like, I'm like, I'm like this little peanut compared to him, you know what I mean? Yeah. And Bartlett can do that. These people can make you feel so crap, but then you've got to come back to, hmm, I actually like my life and I'm still living— I'm living my dream right now, right? So Yeah, it's a daily thing. Yeah, I think that's what the best people do.

Yeah, I agree. So what is— what did you put down for number 2 then?

Number 2, I put niche. I put niche that they believe in. And I think genuinely the smaller the better. And I don't mean like— that could be a granular human, like, individual level if you've got a bigger business. But that— and this feeds into the next things I say, but like I think, like, I listen to James Atwell, right? And I really like the guy. We met at the event. I'm going to meet up with him in Dubai, and we run quite similar businesses. But I've got a fundamental— I disagree with some of the stuff he said on that podcast because, like, I think if you're sending out— if you're using email, cold email, all the time, I don't think that's the kind of person that your clients and candidates are gravitating to. Yeah, they might message you back because someone's just left and you caught them on that perfect day. But for the people we're dealing with that are already good at the job, like, I'm not, I'm not working with like rookies who don't know recruitment. I'm working with founders and leaders of businesses where they're already— they want to get 10, 15% more, you know. And to get to the point where they're on our podcast, they've probably done pretty well, right? They're not, you know. So I think it's having that focus in a niche that you believe in, that like, it isn't about that one email, that one day. It's— there's a bigger picture to it. And you can only really do that, I think, when you see the niche in front of you and you believe and you understand it. Like me and you, like, we— I think our job would be infinitely harder if we dealt with different types of businesses in different industries every day.

Yeah, I mean, I, I've done about— I don't know how often you've had it, but there's been a couple instances. I haven't actually— I don't think I've had like generalists on the pod over the last 6 to 12 months. There's been a couple of like whenever I see people post like, I was top performer, whatever, I always reach out and be like, look, like, would you be able to share in your story? And there's a few instances where I saw like the top biller at like Office Angels and these other companies. It makes me so curious. I'm like, so yeah, because I'm like, so, because again, I feel like if you listen to podcasts like this, how many people you're talking about, how many people you're hearing from who are like, have built their success of like being a generalist? Like, I've only had like one or two people but most of the time it is niche.

But if you're a generalist, it's 100% a process, isn't it? It's just a pro— you're selling a process.

That's true, yeah.

Whereas when you— I think you're selling a network when you're a niche. You're selling a network. Yeah, you've got to run a process. But like, if I take Kyle Winterbottom, who's coming to the event, who I rave about this guy, but he's literally got a waiting list for clients. Yeah, they have to book in to get a call with him to be able to give him a retainer. Why? It's nuts. But why? He does. Does he send— does he send automated emails out? Does he? Fuck yeah. Yeah, he's literally got the reverse of what— he's got what everyone wants, I think. And it's because he owns that data in an AI space. Like, he doesn't step outside of that. He doesn't— doesn't need to. And I think in the early days, and I've seen this, I don't know about you, but someone will be quite niche, they'll start their own business, and then they'll just pick up whatever they can pick up. I get it, you're trying to put fees on the board in year one. But you've got to quickly get back to—

it's hard. It's actually hard to say no. Like, yeah, it is like a real thing you have to lean into.

But then that— if you can't do that on your own, you're not going to be able to do that when you've got teams, and it'll end up being, you know, it'll end up being really messy. Whereas if you go, I built my business fundamentally doing this, and I know there's a gap next to me now for this opportunity that I'm not able to service, and I've got someone that's coming into to That's how I think the best businesses grow. They strategically know which market someone's going to go into, as opposed to going, well, we're busy, so let's throw another head in and we'll figure it out. Yeah, they're messy, they're chaotic.

I would definitely agree. And I think I would just add, like, as well, like, the, the huge— the big benefit to that approach as well is just like, you— in the, the longer it goes on, like, the more powerful it is because if you think of all the people that you connect with and speak to, like, one of your biggest assets will be your data. So like, if in 5 years' time you're still speaking to the similar type of skill set, you'll have all those people that you spoke to over the last 5 years. Yeah, because that's what I always find as well when I speak to people that have been doing it for a long time, then they set up on their own. Like, just the great people have just got so good at cultivating that community and the people that they've spoken to. Like, I spoke to a founder today in preparation for next week, and they've been doing the same market for like 10 years. Like, That's so good. That's like, to have that long-term commitment. So now this, the people that were junior are now senior, and then they bring them in, and like, there's just that long tail benefit as well, just like building up all of that, all that data and the people that you help along, along the career journey. Yeah, do you know what I mean?

The next one I put kind of does feed the same though, it's brand and community. Is that so? Like, I think niche, you can be niche, but you cannot really think about the brand. And like, if I look at my brother's experience, right, my brother was a— was a— I think he did testing and dev niche. He didn't go outside of that. Yeah, but he didn't give a fuck about relationships. Like, he wasn't like cultivating a brand. He wasn't— he found a job, he filled a job. It was spot business, and it was like— it was aggressive, it was fast-paced. He was pretty much a million-dollar biller in Australia, so he was successful, but he couldn't run the business, you know. He struggled when he set up a business, and he didn't want to. He'd burnt out really badly from it. 'cause it wasn't a fun way of working. So I think once you get your niche, the best businesses then think brand and community. They think putting ourselves into that, and like you said, fostering, cultivating, whether that is content on LinkedIn and the things that I promote, you promote, they're only extra. They're just a different vehicle of what used to be an advert in a newspaper or having a roundtable or that. It's not, it's the same end goal, It's that you're well known in one space and you, you, you're moving people, like you're moving people within the same space consistently. You're recycling the same people. You're, you're not having to play catch-up all the time and start from scratch. I've literally got a few people who've come to me recently and they're like, I've been running on a business for 10 years and I literally every mandate is brand new.

Really?

I'm like, how the fuck? How the fuck can you do that? Like, that must be draining. And it is. That's why they're— now, I'm not touching that from a brand perspective. I'm like, you, you know, you've got to niche down. If I'm going to work with you, you've got to make a decision, and we can go on a journey. But it's that age debate again. You're then gonna have to say no to things, but your brand online can't move. I used to say this with you, I think it doesn't navigate as fast as you can work. So let's say I give you 2 jobs today that are different. You can realistically run a process and fill them but your brand can't move that much. Your business can't navigate that fast. So you're better off being known for one thing. And even if you do the odd role in the background to make money, that's cool. But as soon as you can, just get your time, your effort, your focus all revolved around one thing. Yeah, per desk across the business.

Yeah, no, I definitely agree. So that was— so my second one was a bit— I went on a bit of a different angle here, actually. So this is actually probably more about the the person, to be fair. Um, and it'd be interesting what you think of this. So I put they have a willingness to ask for help or possess the humility to know that they don't have all the answers as they scale, whatever that looks like.

I've put growth mindset. Really? Yeah, I'd say it's the same thing.

Yeah, like, so I put which leads to investing in coaches, NEDs, technology, training, just open-minded to learning. Like, for me, I don't know, have you found it? Probably definitely the fact that all these founders are spending time with you tomorrow. Like, it just doesn't stop. Like for me, when I sit down with people who feel like they're really enjoying their work, the journey, they're successful, they feel like just the learning and wanting to get better or trying to get better just never stops.

Yeah, growth mindset, you know, you're always on a journey to improve. If I look at some businesses that, again, they're not— if I look at the clients where I've spoken to on the pod, again, some have got, got there through just old-school grunt, and, and they will get to a point of success financially and But the ones that you tend to meet who are interested in your services and then they don't go with, you know, branding or content or whatever, or engage or advisory, it's because they don't— they're just not open to change. And they're so fixated on, if I do this one little thing, what will I get tomorrow? It's a short-term— and I think that short-term mindset is a, is a little, um, indicator of a fixed mindset. So this— if someone's so obsessed with the pound they make on that one post or whatever, it's an indicator that they've got a fixed mindset. And I think to run a really successful and happy business, you've got to have a growth mindset. You've got to be self-aware.

Yeah.

Some of the stories I hear of like the way founders talk to people in their teams, um, just lacks unbelievable awareness. Like, it's horrific.

Yeah, it is. I don't know, do you— have you met many people that maybe were in that category but then changed? I don't know, because I don't— I feel like people can change though.

Something needs to happen though.

Yeah, that's what I mean. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, it's usually like your business is falling apart or someone categorically leaves you and you think, fuck, like, you know, something's got to happen. You know, what do they say? Change only happens when the thought of staying the same is greater— is, is worse than the thought of, yeah, making the change. So I think, yeah, it's possible. But I don't know, a lot, a lot of the people I spoke to in like 2020, they're still the same now. Like, they're still like, oh yeah, I might do that next year, or I might do this next year, and they're still small and they're still— but again, they don't look happy. I wouldn't say that's not success if they love their job and they, and they get up every day and they make 900 calls and that's, that's That's brilliant, but they're not happy. They're still exploring and they're not making decisions, and they're in a, they're in a psychological loop.

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Yeah, Fathom I've got.

Yeah, yeah. So I think it's like, no, it's just like—

Fathom's insane, right?

Yeah, it's so good.

So click a button, it's in your CRM.

Yeah, so it's just like, it's just a no-brainer.

Is that what they're doing, the Fathom for recruiters?

Yeah, basically. So like, because obviously a lot of it is like the context is where they can— but anyway, the reason why I bring that up is because like he— I think he said it in a really, uh, good way, is like, if you're a recruiter or recruitment business and your business is just like a thin layer on top of LinkedIn like you're going to be really vulnerable, you know what I mean? So like, I just can't believe that people are still questioning, should I be trying to, yeah, build my brand, connect with more people, yeah, be on the radar of more people so I can then take them off of LinkedIn, or like I have more opportunities to connect with people and stuff like that. I just, I just, in today's day and age, I just can't believe that.

But what it is, it's the people in the, in the businesses aren't like you or me. That's the reality. I actually said it at the expo, I don't, I didn't realize how introverted some, or You know, if you look at a recruiter, I always kind of thought most of them would be in like the second, like the upper end of an extrovert percentile, but they're not. Like, there's so many in a business that just don't want to change, they don't want to learn something new, they don't really want to talk. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing in recruitment? Like, that's nuts to me. Yeah, but they're literally like, I don't want to talk about myself, I don't really want to get to know anyone, I just want to go and do my job and get paid, and I want commission. I don't think all them things stack up, they just don't add up. There might be the odd guy that can be super efficient pick up the phone loads and just get his job done. But most people in our industry, you know, want to deal with people, want to open up, want to build relationships. And the fundamental thing stopping you is that people don't know who you are. That's it. That's what's stopping you. Like, whether you use email, whether you use LinkedIn, whatever you're trying to do, you're trying to make people aware of you. The reason you don't— if you're not busy today, if you're sat and you listen to this and you're going, we haven't got enough jobs, Well, there's only one reason. It's because not enough clients that fit your market know who you are and want to work with you right now. Not enough. Because you could look at your client list and go, well, there's not enough jobs in that client list, so you haven't got enough. So you need to have more, you know, you need to have a better handle on the amount of clients you've got, the amount of roles that are coming out, and the relationships you've got. That you have to focus on that equally, like the client, the candidate relationships you're building. But Candidates come to you when they know who you are. They respond to your emails when they know who you are. Clients want to have a coffee with you when they know who you are. Of course, you've got to do things to get them to know who you are, but that's the bit that people only see one way. You just ring them, don't you? You just send a message.

Yeah, yeah, I find it wild. It's nuts, if I'm honest.

But it's— we're— I think we are so far the other way in terms of growth mindset, and you know, meeting all these cool people, trying to create things. Like, look at your business, my business, they're literally an idea that we've took to reality. We haven't gone and worked for someone and then gone, I'll take that and do it again. We've gone, this doesn't exist, we fancy creating it. That takes a stupid amount of, like, faith. And, you know, some people think we're mental.

Yeah. I do think though, like, as time goes on, it will be a non-negotiable that you have to have, like, a multi-channel approach personally. Yeah, of course. Like, The thing that helps us as well is like we've got stacks of evidence of like the things that you're talking about just plays out. Yeah. So like for me, I just feel like when you— when it comes to being a great recruiter, like you will have multi— it isn't like I either do this or that. It's like, it's— yeah, it's like a bunch of things, right? Well, I'm just curious then on the second point, just on your own, on your own journey, your own business journey, is there anything like recently or over the last 6 or so months where you've either invested in or you're like, it's, I don't know, you've like having the moment where like, you know what, maybe we could do that differently. Just talking about that growth mindset, is there anything recently for you that stands out when thinking about that?

Um, I think, I think there's probably, well, I mean, Fathom was a big one. There's literally a huge one. Um, I think with me One of the things I was going to talk about as the next one is like, is being able to delegate and being able to know which things you should spend your time doing. I think the best founders do that really well, and I think I can be guilty of struggling with that. Like, I'm still editing the odd video myself and stuff like that I don't need to do, but there's times where I really get stuck in routines, and I'm good at routines. Like, I think— I actually think if I look at my success, which I've had to date it's not about being the best at anything. I'm just fucking consistent. Like, I'll knock out a show every week, I'll knock out a post every single day, I'll knock out a webinar every single month, you know. I do my boot camp every single 8 weeks. Like, it's so consistent. I don't waver. There's no negotiation. I am there, right? I don't have sick days, I don't miss things. And I think that's got me where I am. But that doesn't mean you can't look at each of them and think, well, do I still need to do that? And I think I've held on to things a bit too long. And so right now I'm kind of really, really analyzing, and over the last couple of months I'm really analyzing what I should be doing or not. And it's fucking mental, some of the things I've gone—

I'm on a similar journey, to be fair.

I bet.

Like, that, that's a big one, um, if I'm honest. It goes into one of, um, my points on here, but I would say that for me, that's one of my big things over the last 6 months is that it is so hard. I was speaking to Jess about this yesterday, like, it's so hard to— like, the best founders definitely prioritize the right things. Yeah, but it's so hard. It is hard to do.

Yeah, you got— you're constantly making different lists and deleting them and writing again and drawing mind maps and talking to people. And I said on a, on a, on a video the other day, like, no business is ever fixed. Like, never ever imagine that, like, Hormozy's got it figured out, or Joe Rogan, or Stephen Bartlett. Have they? Fuck. Like, they're more successful, they've made their money, great. But if I look at all the founders I deal with and all the people that have been on my podcast, they've got mega problems. Mega. There's always loads of things broken that they're trying to fix. Now, the best founders can tell a story that makes it sound perfect, and we're all good at it, right? So that is another thing that I see as one of the most successful founders, they can convey a story. They can convey a story that gets others to, to jump on board, whether that's teammates, clients, or candidates, or all of them. They're usually the most charismatic, really good communicators, you know. They don't need to use— I, I just think they're really good communicators, and I think that, that's something that is so powerful.

Yeah, I don't know if you're gonna agree with my next one.

Go on.

So I put, uh, they— my third one is they view their business as a sales business. They develop a sales culture, a way of selling, and they sell solutions.

I absolutely agree with that.

Oh, fair. Yeah, I wasn't sure how you feel about that. I don't know, I just wasn't— I wasn't sure how you'd like with the, the branding piece. How do you feel about— because like for me, I do think regardless of all of that, it's are you good at? Yeah, like you said, communicating, selling.

Mate, I'm totally on board, right? The reason I'm totally on board is, like, literally, I mentioned this the other day, there was, um, there was a guy in Australia, I won't name him, he knows who he is, he commented about— he did a post about one of my clients, how they, um, you know, we— I've talked about how good they are, but the billings he's heard from a rec to rec are actually not very good. All right, classic. Yeah, I thought that was shit, that was petty, that was a bitchy comment. But either way, what it made me realize was One, whatever that person's going through, you know, that, that, that person who's referring to could have had a really tough year. There's so much that could have happened, horrible mood. But I'm actually banking on the fact that that's what my clients are focusing on already. So I'm not interested in that bit, seriously. I'm not, I'm, I'm not here as a sales coach. I don't want to be a sales coach. Now there's some strategic sales processes stuff that I do teach in some of my— but really, I'm leaving everyone else to do the sales side, you know. Let every other sales coach, everyone in a business I think the bit that's missing in this industry is understanding how branding impacts it. Yeah, but it's still ourselves. I mean, my business, if I look at Hoxone now compared to when you were in it, it's a commercial engine. Literally, 3 members of staff don't have a commercial footprint out of— there's only 13 of us now, so there's 10 people from sales and customer success. To me, everyone's got a client-focused role where we're selling, we're upselling, we're cross-selling. And I, I actually envy recruitment companies often. I have done over the last few years because I think there's something magical about that, something incredible where 90% of the business is front office. Yeah, like that just doesn't exist in other industries really.

Do you think— did you— because I, I definitely found this, this was just coming up in all my conversations, was like, I just find it time and time again where a lot of founders I speak to, like, 80% of their business is literally coming from like 10% of their team. And, or a lot of the companies that, you know, where the, where the market did— whatever market you're in, it got really difficult— they looked around their sales floor, no one could sell bar like a few people. Because obviously, again, unfortunately, recruitment founders can be pretty reactive, right? They look at like, fucking, I've got this job coming in, let's get Sean in, you can work on that, let's pay him a decent salary, crack on. And then when then Sean is waiting for the next job to work on, they go, sorry, Sean, I've got any jobs for you. Yeah, yeah, like, which is why I think the companies that I've met, or the founders that I met, that, um, did a pretty good job— I'm sure we never know true, that they're true numbers, like, but in terms of what they tell me, how they got on—

I get loads of messages after I've put an episode up, right, from people going, that's bullshit, have you seen that, have you checked the company's house? And I got— I get all these messages from other people saying that is not true what you said. And I'm like, I don't audit what people tell me.

Yeah, I, I have had that, but it's—

yeah, I'm not going in the background going like, oh, you're lying. Like, I don't— I genuinely— that's not my intention. It's not to like debunk people's numbers. Like, yeah, people want to come here and lie, they can, but most often I believe people are, you know, the people I'm dealing with.

Yeah, I think it's our— I think I would say it's our job to like challenge people. Yeah, like if you think—

I love that bit.

Yeah, like if you're like, this person, I feel like they're not being very truthful here. Yeah, I think it's our job to like challenge them, but I think, yeah, we've got to take what they say, right? But I think the, the people, the founders that I've met would describe their business as a sales business. I do feel like when things were really fucking busy, that got lost, I felt like, a bit.

So what you're saying is, does that lean into more of a 360 model or not?

Not necessarily, just it could— like, I would just say I just feel like the founders of successful companies they would have spent time really trying to think about or develop like a way of selling, or like, that's important and that's high on, like, this is what we need to make sure that we have. And I don't think every business has that.

But if you think about like, yeah, the problem we've faced is that they, you know, loads of businesses came in off the pandemic influx and people just thought, well, I've got a, I've got a cater for it. I don't remember a time in my history in the industry where that happened so quick and so, and ended, and ended so quick. So it was a really steep curve that way and that way. So I think people need to learn from that, that if you're going to bring— if you're going to create more of a 180 or 120 model, whatever the hell people call it these days, where you've got maybe you've got, you know, a BD person and you might even have an account manager and a delivery consultant, you might have that 3 or 50/50. If this person is 100% reliant on this you've got a problem.

Yeah.

Whereas if this person— if you've mapped out that this person's job is not just to fill a mandate and there's more, there's a sales job, there's an account management job, there's a— because if, if you think about it, if this person's bringing logos in and their job is to manage a portfolio of logos and get the most out of that client, then you've got— that's a sales job. Yeah, it's a fucking sales job.

Yeah.

And there's always business. There's always stuff to work on. And if that person is working their absolute balls off developing, and they've got every relationship, and the market is that tight, you'd expect— obviously not in every business— but that some founders would take a risk on holding on to that person because they'd have enough knowledge to say, this is genuinely a pinch point. This is— the clients are saying, hold off. This is a couple of months away, and we're back. Whereas when you've got a delivery person who sits there ringing candidates all day and doesn't have any clue what's going on in the clients, they're absolutely disposable. But I think that's also part of the model that people need to accept. One, I used to work for a company, you know, I worked for Venquise, and Steve Garner was my boss, and he was an incredible mind. He's a bit like Jose Mourinho, like that's how I'd describe him. He used to sit in his chair and just play musical fucking— he used to, he used to drop little bombs and like wind us up, and he was always playing mind games with me, but he was so clever, and I learned so much from him, and I enjoyed working for for him. But anyway, he used to talk about— because I used to say like, how many people do we have to hire here for this to fucking— for people to stick? And he was like, we, we aim to make every single person stick, right? We give everyone— if they get— we used to have like a really, um, strict psychometric test on the way in, and we just let people— we'd reject them if they— there was something called a yielder, which was like an indicator that they would when people said no, they'd back off. If anyone got a red on a yielder, regardless of how much we liked them, we would not allow them in. If anyone had worked in the recruitment and left recruitment and wanted to come back, we would not allow them in. We had like rules and we were strict on it. But I'd still say we had no better— 12 weeks, really in-depth— we had no better strike rate than 3 out of 10. And he was like, I'm okay with it. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, that's the ratio. Well, we'll live with the ratio. If we can get it to 4, great. But if we know we need 3, if we know we need to get 10 to get 3 great people, then that's what we need to do. And, and he, again, he's— it, he thought it through, he understood it, and he was comfortable with it. And I think it goes back to the 3 and 2 in the office, or the do I hire internally, do I hire remotely. It's all the same stuff. It's being comfortable with the decision. And, and going with it for a sustained period of time. The businesses that fail are just like, they're like that. Yeah, just chop change, start, stop, everything's chaotic. They don't commit to anything. And, and yeah, and if you, if you're not, you're in basically a constant state of flight and fight, fight or flight in that, in that way. And oh God, it sounds— I would not want to work in that kind of business.

How do you think about— because what I put under this as well, because I'm sure this has come up in your conversations, I've put they've productized their service or haven't got complacent with doing recruitment one way. Because I do—

I, I—

that also does baffle me as well when I speak to founders or even recruiters. And I don't know, I guess it is very easy just to work in a certain way, isn't it? But I think if you are really thinking about sales, how can we be better, whatever, you do end up thinking about how do we package up our offers and our services. How do you feel about that? Obviously contingent, I don't think, is ever going to like die or anything, but I am surprised to still speak to so many people that it's like 80% contingent, 20% exclusive or whatever. And I do think for me, a lot of the successful companies have productized their service. Like, it isn't just, yeah, Sean, if we work together, it's just this one way.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. I think there's a danger in doing too many different things, and you, again, you go back to losing what, what got you where you were. But I agree, like, you— the best businesses are thinking, how do we wrap up customers? How do we create solutions? How do we create retainers? How do we create upfront payments, monthly recurring revenues? So, um, again, it goes back to that growth mindset, doesn't it?

That's what I mean.

Same thing. It's the same. Everything we're touching is, is touching the same thing. So if you go back where we— you know what you want from the business, you know what niche, you know which niche you want to serve, and you own that community and brand, you, you're aware enough to delegate and bring the right people around you, and then you're always thinking about improvements. And as a result of that, you, you clever ways of selling to that customer base, and you make it a sales-driven organization. I think that's kind of stacking them all together, right?

Yeah.

I can think of so many businesses like that, and those that aren't.

And I think back to what we were saying earlier, one of the— like, if you're a founder and you're listening to this, I think one of the coolest things about being in that seat is like, you can have an idea and try it on Monday. I think you can really take this to when you're thinking about the problems that your clients have. Like, I've— we started working with a company recently where they had a shit year last year. The founder took a step back, like, right, what do we need to do better? They realized they were working with clients that weren't committed, um, and they really thought about what are the common problems that these companies have that we work with. And then they've now thought of— they basically thought of different, um, solutions to the issue. So like, when they work with a company in a certain way. They'll do video job specs, they'll do these other things. And like, if you have any ideas around, oh, that's like the fifth hiring manager who said like they struggle with this, or their reputation isn't as good it should be online, or whatever, like that's absolutely something you can take action on. Like, if you have an idea around how you could potentially add something to your service, like experiment with it, or like ask a couple of people and then go from there. I think that is one of the coolest things. Like, when you have your own business, you can try different things fast and and yeah, do you know what I mean?

The only thing I would say is though, is, and I've been guilty of this, is you're, as a founder, you can see the future that fast. Like, you just can. You can, you, you hear something, you imagine the difference, you want to, you could implement it tomorrow and it would feel okay. But first, for your staff, that's frightening.

Yeah, true.

I can be the biggest problem in Hoxo because I'm like, we're doing this, this is the way we're doing it, this is brilliant. And people are like, fucking hell, that was something different 2 minutes ago. Like And I get a bit frustrated at times when people don't catch up to me until then, you know, come on, you can see what I'm thinking here. And like, I think I've built one, a better way of doing that, that I'm not dropping bombs on. Like, even Amo would be like, mate, just chill out. Like, we've committed to this. Um, but I'm also good— I'm getting better at getting people on that journey earlier and saying, look, I'm thinking of this for next quarter, what do you think? Dropping— getting them bought into the decision. Um, and, and as I've learned, I've learned now to do less of that reactive try it tomorrow and put it into a 90-day plan.

Yeah.

So I have like, we have, I've literally been writing like my quarter 2 stuff. I mean, a bit late as we're already in April, but there's a couple of things I really need to do in this quarter. And there's stuff I can't do, like there's other ideas I've got. Shit, I just have an ideas like dump that I put down, but I think you're better off doing one great thing and a quarter that's new than, than 3 things that you do badly and you drop all the time.

Yeah, no, that, that is, that's definitely a good point. But I just think, just don't forget, like, you, you, you don't have to do things just because it's always been that way. Like, if you do think it could potentially be better, like, you can absolutely try that. Yeah. So to be fair, this ties into one of the things you were saying, but the 4th one that I put down was, um, they get out of their own way, or at least look to do this if they're on a growth journey. Or even if they're not on a growth journey, they're still probably thinking about like, is this a high leverage task? Or like, obviously a bit of a journey you're going on, and I'm thinking about right now, they do— you do— these successful founders do try and get out of their own way. They don't want to be center of attention, I found personally.

No, I get your point. I think, I think center of attention is, is slightly different than, than delegation, I think, because like I can delegate so much that still leads to me being the face of—

right, yeah, yeah, fair.

So I think there's two sides to that, but I agree with what you're saying. Like, I think the best businesses make it about the team, make it about the business, but everyone's personal brand contributes to that, and that's important. Um, but the best people I've dealt with, yeah, they surround themselves with better— with just good people. Like, they, they know they need a marketing person, an operational person, even if that is a VA or an, or, you know, an outsourced partner, or it's a fully fledged team. I think it's very hard to be truly successful and happy on your own? But I mean solely on your own, you don't work with anyone else.

Yeah, that'd be hard.

Lonely, for a start. So like, even if you're on your own, as a, you know, having part of a network, part having like an NED, having— there's things you can put around you that, that help you go on that journey. And I think that's getting out your own way again a bit, because If you leave every decision to you, if you leave every idea to you, if you leave all the execution to you, that's lonely, that's difficult, that's overwhelming.

It's hard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think the main thing is get out their own way. Yeah, like being center of attention is definitely different. I think what I was trying to sort of—

there's two different business routes because like if I look at Kyle Winterbottom, it, it's very similar to me. It's like the Kyle face is face of of ambition. But, you know, I think that's a good thing.

That's his key personal influence.

That's his pros and cons though, like, you know, because then he's like, how do you get other people around you to be— you know, even looking at me and you, right? There was a time where people didn't know who owned OXO and what you were and I were. And you probably felt that, like, if I'm really gonna pop off, I'm gonna do it on my own. If we'd have had a better conversation back then, we might have figured out a way of doing it so that we were both in the same business and you know, who knows. But there is— I think there is a challenge at times with the personal brand being just around one person, but there's ways to do it, there's ways to build it in different directions. Again, it comes down to having a plan of what you want.

I think like, because again, I've been, um, I literally went to an event recently with a friend and it was like Daniel Priestley and Ali Abdaal, if everyone consumers' content on YouTube have seen it. But obviously his whole like key person influence thing, like obviously the classic examples are like the, you know, Richard Branson, all these things. But I do think I actually really— sometimes you can hear people say the things you were saying around like, oh, I don't want to be the face of the brand and these types of things. But actually, if you are a key person of influence, the way that, um, Dan said it on some content recently was just like you're as a key person influence, you shine the light on other people. Yeah, it's not about having the light shined on you. So if you are this huge brand and we're talking about, yeah, building a brand, these things— if you're a successful founder, you would have got out your way in the sense of like, if I might really buy into Sean and what you're saying, but then when I start working with your business, you'll have exceptional people that— do you know what I mean?

That's what I think now. I'd say when you come and work with Hoxo, the standard doesn't drop. Like years ago, I think me and you on the front and there was teams in the back and even after you, before you, where you're like, yeah, that probably wasn't as good as we were hoping for. And the people felt a bit like, I've just met Sean, I've just met Hishem, I've just met Amr and now I'm not quite sure it's the same standard. Whereas I'm like, I'm fucking so confident. I've got this like rock solid team of, and we all have different parts to play. But the keeper— I mean, look at the key person of influence. Like, if you— I say this repeatedly— if you build a business in your underpants, the old joke, but you've come from being a biller to a founder on your own, you build it up, the relationships you've got to build in those first few years to get that business to the point where you can hire and you can train and you can put the spotlight on everyone else, they are golden. They're the first people that took a chance on you. Now, what most founders then do is they sit in the background and they think it's all about everyone else. So they go quieter and more internal and more internal and more internal. And I get that you put in all the relationships into other people, you're future-proofing the business, you're building processes, you're building something that's robust, built on a company name, not you. But why can't you do that as well as having an element of being a key person? Like, why wouldn't you still nurture and reach out and have some form of market engagement because you've got the most stories, the most gravitas, the most history in the market. People want to meet the founder, they want to interact with the founder. Like, having a podcast is the single best thing I think a founder can do in a recruitment company, because like they can still interview loads of clients and do loads of stuff, but having no actual work to do— this, this isn't fucking work, this is great fun, do you know what I mean? So like, and Daniel Priestley, like there's no way Daniel Priestley is doing the detail in his business. Nah. But he's phenomenal at the message. And I think most great founders had to be phenomenal at the message to get to the point where they built people around them. They just forget about it and they put it in the back burner and they turn it— they think it's something that's not for them anymore.

We'll get back to the episode in just one minute. But today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Firefish, the recruitment CRM that accelerates data-driven growth. The problem with most recruitment CRMs is that they are just a database of records, meaning they become just one of the many tools that recruiters use every day. Like with all systems, the records are only as good as the data being captured. Our sponsors Firefish know that for agencies to win faster, data needs to be at the heart of their business, making your CRM the single source of truth. With over 10,000 records created and updated every day, and 85% of placements from existing candidates, Firefish enables recruiters to enrich and engage their data, equipping you with real-time insights needed to win faster. To learn more about Firefish and take advantage of an exclusive Recruitment Mentors Podcast offer, make sure you click the link in the show notes and mention the Recruitment Mentors Podcast when speaking to the Firefish team. Yeah, I think— I do think that is the right way to think about it because then like, then it's just all about leveraging that to help move the business forward. If that's because of that, you're then able to get into rooms where you can get investment, or you're then in rooms to help close customers, or yeah, like that, that's how you then leverage that. You're still— it's not all revolved around you, like, still the business name, whatever. I just feel like, yeah, again, with the— if you think about the people that we've mentioned in this conversation, the content that we consume, Steve Bartlett, these types of things, that, that's absolutely why Dragons then exist.

Yeah, because they were super successful. They've got a huge network. Their network knows them, likes them. They put cash in, they build teams, but they add, they add their brand to that team instantly. You go on Dragon's Den and Bartlett invests in you, you're gonna feel different. You're gonna get a different— you're gonna get in different conversations. So why wouldn't every founder think, well, I, I have to be that for my— I have to be the dragon for my business. Do you know what I mean? I have to be that. It doesn't mean after spend all day on the phone, but you've got to be strategically the, the, the person opening doors and helping, helping others walk.

Yeah, definitely. But nonetheless, you've definitely got to like be aware of getting out of your own way.

Getting out your own way. Because you can't do that if all you're doing is like 9 to 5 billing in delivery. It's very difficult.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Um, so this is my fifth one. I don't know what, um, Yeah, you put as a final point, but again, this is a bit, uh, more around the personal, so I don't know what you think about this. So I put, for me personally, the founders that seem the happiest, energized, and excited are those that put their health very high up on their values and are often in good shape. That's just me being really truthful.

Just a bit where I get my abs out. Yeah, there's just plenty of people—

there's plenty, whatever that means, but there's plenty of people, you know, that are successful that aren't that, but But like, for me, I feel like whenever I sit down with people, meet people who are energized, that, you know, we're talking about being successful, like 100%, if you've— if you're really trying to work on your health, downstream from that is better relationships, even with yourself, with other people, um, with your partner, whatever. And like, then you show up better for work. So like, for me, I just feel like that's, that's just the truth, like, for me. Yeah, I think, I think it's a bold statement, but you're right.

I think The days gone by, there are successful founders that booze all the time and ate crap and cheated on their wives or husbands and did all these things and still built a successful— like, what the industry would recognize as successful. But if we're looking at what we believe is success and what most of our generation now running businesses, it's a circle, it's a proper flywheel. Like I said, if I look at my life now My health, my health is number one, you know. I've stopped drinking this year. I'm not drinking in 2024. I got the gym consistently. I walk consistently. I eat better. I feel like I've got a really rock-solid routine. I'm in better shape. I feel a different person than I did a year ago, 6 months ago. That's then leading to I'm having a better relationship with my wife. She's not drinking either. Like, that's some— since the baby, we had, we had postnatal anxiety, and we both said, look, there's no booze for a bit, and it's been amazing. But we're now having like— I said to her the other day, like, everyone thinks intimacy is, is, you know, sex or whatever. We're having more quality conversations than we've ever had. And from an intimate— you know, I'm not going to go into the details of my sex life, but from a, from an intimacy perspective, when you've had a baby 6 months ago, like, you're not like you were perhaps when you first met, right? Let's just say that. But from it— but from a traditional standpoint. But if I look at the intimacy in my relationship and the way we speak and the depth to the conversation, a lot more connected. Another level, man.

Yeah.

And again, I, I trigger— I keep saying to my wife, that booze has been a different game here. Last night, right, I come to London, my stepson is 9 years old. I would say he's been my most difficult relationship in my house for the last 2 years, right? I've lived with him for nearly 3 years and I love the kid, but we've battled. We've, we've been like, fucking, there's friction all the time. And, and, you know, I've always thought I'm not his dad and he's jealous of me because I'm with his mum and I love him and we have a good relationship, but it's like a bit like love-hate. Last 3 months it's been incredible, and I mean it. He was crying his eyes out last night in bed and I was nearly welling up, and he's like, I don't want you to go. And I'm like— and I've looked, I've said to Lauren, it's the fr— it's the booze again.

Why is it? Why do you think?

What?

Because—

because I'm walking in every day with a miles better mind and I'm so much calmer, and I'm, I'm walking into situations where I would have been like straight away on them, and I'm like, why am I going straight on them? Let's watch. Just watch. All right, he's put butter all over the side. But I would have been like, what are you doing? I had these expectations of these 9 and 10-year-olds to be like adults, and they're not. And I've— I'm actually finding things funny now. I'm like, do you want butter the fucking fridge as well? But I'm throwing that like line at him and he's cracking up, and I've just disarmed him. Like, mate, could we clean this up together? And he's like, yeah. So anyway, so look at my health, my relationships, at home, business. Like, I reckon I've operated 10 to 15% better this year, without a doubt. Like, if I look at the numbers we're doing, if I look at the products we're introducing, the changes we're making, at the speed we're making, I've not had a single day where I've gone, oh, I don't feel it. I mean it. I went out— this is a long one— I went to Peru and New York last year in the summer, got back. I did 6 overnight flights in a week.

Oh my God.

With, with a 5, 6-month pregnant wife. 2 kids under the age of 10. New York, Peru, back to New York. 6 overnight flights because we did— we flew overnight to New York, overnight to Lima, then Cusco, and then back. It was nuts. So 6 flights, 4 overnight. Anyway, I then land in London, barely slept. She then has to drive the car to Sheffield, and I go straight to the cricket for a day at the cricket with England and Pakistan or something. I don't even like cricket, but I just went with the lads for drank all day.

You drank all day?

All day, yeah. And I remember waking up the next morning in a hotel in Waterloo where that Amma was, you know, we went for breakfast. I swear I felt like shutting Hogsall down. Yeah, I'm not even joking. Like, I was like, I can't face—

and there was not even anything majorly wrong after all that week as well though.

I was just like, I'm, I'm not in this, I don't fancy it. So what you want about— I'm like, I just can't face like what, anything that's coming right now. And I'm like, fuck. And we were making— we had some redundancies coming up and I was like, I'm gonna make myself redundant. Now I joke, but I'm like, this year I'm like, it's nuts. Like, I feel like, um, it's nuts how different every situation is. So not making it all about me, but like, if I look at the best people I'm dealing with— I went to the expo, most people are like— I'm not saying they're all sober, but they're like, they're really conscious of what they eat and drink. Like, they're conscious of their training. They're conscious of like, they're just, yeah, like it's, it's a proper flywheel.

Yeah, flywheel is a good way to think about it.

And you've got your health, your wealth, your relationships, your business, you know, they've all got a part to play. If you've got no family or relationships, like that George Heaton, he also said his brother was like his best mate. He was like, so like, that's his, that's his relationship, right? So he's got, he's got something in his life. For me I've actually mapped it out. I've written it down and gone, right, you know, this is what I want from my health, this is what I want from my wife and kids, this is what I want from financial, this is what I want from hoc. So then I've put like a fun thing in there. So I've actually thought about my travel. I know I'm going to, um, Dubai at the end of May. I know I'm going to Peru again in the summer. I know I'm going to Turkey in October. I haven't booked them, but I know where I'm going. I'm going to Marrakech on Friday for a 4-day, like Why not? Like, so I know another guy who runs a business. He said, I've not been on holiday since I set the company up 6 years ago. His kids have not been outside the country since he set his business up.

Yeah, that's wild.

And he's not saying that like because he wants that, but that's what he felt you need to do when you're an entrepreneur. And I'm like, I don't think you do. And I think the best people are like, like Leo Harrett. You know Leo? Do you remember? Do you know from chapter 2?

Yeah, I remember him.

You look at his Instagram, mate. He's in— I think he's in Barbados right now. Like, the guy is always away. How the hell does he run? His business is flying because he's got everything on our list. Everything on our list is locked in, and he's able to go and enjoy, and he's not waiting for a payday when he's 60 and he's bloated. He's doing it now.

But yeah, I do really believe— I do really believe that. I think, again, like, everyone maybe arrives at putting it higher on their value list. Yeah, it's different moments, but I do think over the long term, if you're going to be successful, happy, you're going to start thinking, looking in the mirror going, I probably need to— I need to put my health up there.

What is it about you? Because you— when we met at the expo, you said you've not— was it you not drank this year, or you haven't drank for a while? Yeah, so, um, you used to just consume avocados.

Yeah, I've always been pretty health conscious. Um, I put on weight really easily, so like sometimes I'll just— I'll, I'll like fluctuate pretty easily, um, weight-wise. But I've always been fairly health-conscious throughout my 20s. But I had my time when I worked abroad in Magaluf in those days and all that. I've had my fair share of sessions. But I guess leading up to being 30— I turned 31 this, uh, this year in March— like, leading up to turning 30, I didn't drink a whole lot. But when I did drink, it might— sometimes I'd have like a proper heavy one, and then yeah, literally the following 3 days I'm like, what the fuck is this? Is shit. This is— life is bad. Yeah. Um, so that I didn't like that. But if I'm honest, the main thing was it would more be like the casual drinking would just lead to bad habits. So like, I don't know about you, but again, I'm just like a real foodie. So if I have 2 pints, 3 pints, I'm— my mind is going, can I get a McDonald's on the way home? That's what I'm thinking about. So then I'll wake up, I won't feel amazing, I know I've eaten a McDonald's. I'm like, you can taste it. And I'm just like, I just feel shit about myself.

So, and when you are the founder of a business and you try to— you, you've got so much responsibility.

Yeah, exactly. So for me, it was just like, I just like the idea of not, not drinking once turning 30, and it just didn't match up with like the type of person I wanted to be or the habits that I wanted to be. And then if I'm honest, it's been a bit more of a switch for me rather than like I've counted every day and It— for me, it's more that I just don't have any days where I wake up like that you described. Like, I don't have— I haven't had in those days for a year.

Do you know how many— I mean, I'm not naming them, but you know how many recruitment owners that you would say are still in that— they're doing really well and their growth, but they're still like boozing, tanking, they, they kind of like— they're, they're burning the candle at both ends. Do you still see as much of that?

I don't want to say— I don't actually say like less so, personally. Yeah, I do think people just go on their own journey with it. Like, I feel like most successful people that I've met, they might have just had that back-to-back session, they're like, nah, I'm done. So I do think, if I think of like the last number of people that I sat down with, founders, like, yeah, probably less so if I'm honest.

Well, I've got 20 people coming to this event and I think 50% of them, because I told them all like, I'm, I'm not going to be drinking, but you, you know, I'll be taking you out for dinner and whatever. And they were like, yeah, I don't drink, or I'm not drinking at the moment, or I'm on it, you know. It's like, it was like a normal thing. Whereas I'm going on a stag in May to Lisbon with 40 lads from Manchester I grew up with, and I've still not told them I'm not going to be drinking. And I'm like, how's that gonna go down? Like, I don't even know. They're probably— if any of them listens to my shit, I don't think they do, but if they do We'll deal with it when we get there.

But I do, I do think it's up there for sure. What was your—

what was your favorite?

Did you touch—

I put a personal balance, personal and work and life balance that works for them, like a conscious balance, right, for them, which I think—

so you're talking about the exercise you sort of did for yourself? Yeah, being aware of it.

Yeah, aware. I think awareness is key to it all. And I think— what did I listen to? A lot of Andy Ramage's stuff at the minute.

You don't know him?

The One Year No Beer guy, he, he was on that Drang and Chatterjee podcast last week, and he's, uh, he does a lot in the alcohol-free space, and he says it's like, it's like when you're drinking, you're like, you're in the jar and you have to get out the jar to see what's on the label.

That's good.

When you read the label, you're like, fuck. And like, I genuinely feel like not just with booze but in general, in, in like all areas of my life, like, I'm— awareness is, is reading the label. German is like picking up something that you just go, I'm going to drink that, I'm just going to eat that. If you read the label, you might make a different decision, but you need to be aware enough to read the label. And that can be pretty— as a metaphor for every part of your life, questioning, do I really need to do this? Should I do this? What benefits is it going to give to me? I'm going to give to the business, you know. I think awareness is key. Yeah. And most of the best— well, yeah, the best people have it in abundance, I think.

Again, I feel like if you maybe not be not as, um, self-aware right now, you can absolutely get there, right? And you can be on a bit of a journey with that. How do you— what do you think though about, um— so I definitely agree with that, but at the same time, what helps me is sometimes thinking about just like being in like periods. Like there will be periods where I'm like, I'll speak, speak to Jess or whatever and make sure we're on the same page of like, right, this month or this quarter I am— I'm definitely gonna have to put some extra hours in. Like, it's what, like, is needed from me, or what I feel I need to do. These are the reasons why. Yeah. But then making sure— being aware of that, so communicating that, but then also being aware, like, okay, well, so because of that, I'm gonna have a bit more later nights, but then when we have this time together, we do that. Like, it's, it's our time, and like, that's got to be protected. Like, we've got to talk about that. But how do you feel about— there is an interest in there's an interest in communication about working hard now. I feel like it is often— people do shit on it, I think, do you know what I mean? It comes— it's like if you say, oh, I'm working really hard, or I'm grinding it out, these—

Alex Elliott does a lot of content about that, don't he?

Like, I feel like it comes— it's like it's got weight to it now, almost.

Well, you could, you know, you could say that there's an element of this— the work-life balance thing is so far one way that yeah, it's demonized just going for your goals and working like a lunatic. But I think, I think it all comes down to what you want. Like, you're only going to work that hard if you want— if you've got a strong enough why. Like, you do. Like, you, you know, if you've got a real why to make a certain amount of money, like, you're gonna have to put the effort in. You have to— like, I know, like, like I say, this week with this event coming up, I've been working long days and I said to Lauren, like, I'm going to Marrakech with her on Friday afternoon and my phone's off till Monday night when I get back. I'm not going to be on it at all. I've told the team I'm not speaking to anyone. Um, but she's had to deal with me probably being mentally a bit vacant this week. And but again, I would have probably gone through a period in the past where I'd not mentioned it, right, and I'd just done it and then expecting— then there's an issue.

And I think, yeah, I was bad at that.

Again, one on top of the 5, which again comes back to the awareness, but it's like the level of rigor that really good business owners put into their business. Why don't you just put that into different parts of your life? Like, you sit down every week and you have a management meeting and you talk about risks and issues and goals and targets, and your aim is to get all the shit out on the table so that there's no surprises, right? Yeah. I asked this on my podcast a lot: do you have that with your wife? And the amount of people go, nope. You know, and the odd one says, yeah, I do have a really clear line of communication. I think that again, it's do you have that same level of dialogue with, you know, with yourself when it comes to your fitness goals? And like, do you plan it out? Do you talk about it? Do you have a coach? You know, I have my alcohol-free journey. I've got someone, Keith, who I speak to, and I meet him every single week, and he's a mate, and I'm, I'm giving him advice on his business, he's giving me advice in that. And it's without him, I wouldn't have been— I won't be where I am. I've, you know, I've not got a pt, I've had one. I've actually got an online coach that I've been working with, and I think it takes awareness and conscious effort to know what matters to you and what you need to do to get to it. And when you're 25 and single living in Clapham, you can work 12-hour days without pissing anyone else off. You've got no responsibilities, you can do it. And I think these people should go out and do it if they really want to become the best. I think recruiters in their 20s who don't have loads of responsibilities, they should be going for it. They should be putting in extra hours. They should be working smart and hard because then you, you're on. But you want to put those hours in so that when you do reach the time which you're arriving at, which I've arrived at, where you get married and you have kids, you've got to make a really bold decision. Do you want to carry on being a— being away every night of the week? Like, the amount of founders I speak to that say they didn't see their child— children grow up To me, that's not success. For me. For them, it might be, and they're happy with it. But having a baby now, there's no way I'm missing out on her childhood for an extra few million on a payday. Like, it's not happening. I will earn enough to have an amazing life and see her. That's my— I've got that in my ingrained in my brain. But it's awareness, right?

Yeah, it does come back down. It does come down to that.

But the guys who sacrifice their kid's childhood and go I'm glad I did it. That's fine as well.

Yeah, no, absolutely fucking sound.

Like, why do we have to tell people not to do things? Like, I think awareness— it comes back to everything is awareness. I think that's the number one area that we, we, we, we, we think all the best people we've come across have got really good self-awareness. They know their weaknesses, they know their strengths, and they take action and move forward.

Love it. I think that's a wrap there, mate. That's our 5. That's our 5.