The Hard Truths From Year One of Running a Recruitment Business With Genie Founder of We Are Refyne

Jeannie, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you for making the trip. I know you said that you got a little bit lost from going from Houston to here, but we're here. Yeah, we're in the, the new, new home of the podcast, first one recording here, which is awesome. I've got to know you a bit over the last couple of months. Yeah, and really looking forward to digging into this journey. So today what we're going to be talking about is ultimately your, your first year in business.

Yes.

Running a recruitment business. You're on the entrepreneurial journey. So our goal today is really to talk about what you've learned, what's been hard, what you've had to learn the hard way, the things that you feel like you've done well, because there have been some really great wins in this, you know, 12 or so months journey so far. And, um, that's our goal today. So to give everyone a bit of background, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but I think what's really cool about your journey is Before you entered the world of recruitment, you, you had 10 years of sales experience.

Yes, I sold everything imaginable.

Yeah, I've got, I've got on this list, we've got PPC, SEO, decking, jet skis, insurance. But you all— so you had a career in sales, then you had a friend, like we all do, who ended up in recruitment and said, Gina, you'd be great at it, you should consider it. So you then ended up getting into recruitment, had 16 months of experience.

Yeah.

Before then you launch your own recruitment business called Refine.

Yes.

And your world of recruitment, which I, I found super interesting, is beauty, personal care, and aesthetics.

That's right.

Is your ecosystem, is your world.

Yeah.

So in terms of what we've achieved so far, so as of today, um, first year in business, we did $364K in revenue in year one. It's been all, all perm, hasn't it, pretty much?

Yeah, 99%. Yeah.

Full perm, right now you have 6 billing heads, 6 salespeople. You also brought on a partner in this journey, which we're gonna talk about. And you're doing business in the UK and the US.

Yeah.

I think I've got here UK average fee size being around £9,750, and then in the US, which is where I know there's gonna be a lot of growth for you guys, is more like around the 30K mark.

Yeah.

So a lot that we've learned, let's really go into this, this sort of first year of recruitment business, which I think is really cool. So the first thing to say, because I think people always interested in this, because I do think this factors into how quickly you grew the team. Yeah, obviously you also have a business partner in this, a guy called Wayne. Yes, where some people may know the, the brand called Cast UK.

Yeah, I know they're Wayne and Gary.

Yeah, Wayne and Gary. So big brand in, um, Manchester. So the sort of pot of money as well as expertise that we had, this was £80,000, right?

Yeah.

And you, you also contributed to that.

Yeah.

But I think that's just important to say because I think within what, within the first couple of weeks, we looked to make our first hire, didn't we?

Yeah. So I actually hired Lucy, um, before I started the business, um, which was crazy and scary. And Evie, actually. So the first two hires that I made, I'd offered them roles before I'd even launched the business.

So should we, should we just start with— obviously you, you came to one of our dinners recently in Manchester, and I feel like this would have come up. So the more founders I sit down with, what is just so crucial and important is really understanding like what you want to be and what you want the, the business to look like. Obviously a whole different story on bringing that to reality because There's ebbs and flows, ups and downs. But if me and you were to sit down in those early stages, maybe if I was a fly on the wall when you was meeting Wayne and Gary, like, what would I have heard you say when it comes to, this is what I want Refined to be, this is where I want to take the business. Like, what was the intention starting out?

I suppose the intention was really, I wanted to build a sustainable business. I knew I didn't want to be like a one-man band type of business. Um, so I wanted to build like a structured team around me that could grow. Like, we could get it to, I don't know, 100 heads one day, um, and everyone to have like a specialist area. So even though we're a really niche agency, almost every consultant have like a niche within that niche that they then work towards. Um, yeah, I just wanted it to be, and I still do today, like the best business ever, and a really great place to work, all the rest of it.

So you wanted to grow this business, that was the intention?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, from day one.

So why don't we, with, with that in mind then, why don't we just start with— and, and this definitely would have come up and we would have spoken a lot about it— hiring for your own business is hard.

Oh, so hard.

So why didn't we start there? Because you pulled the trigger on that pretty early. Now, something that's quite interesting about your approach has been— correct me if I'm wrong here— but everyone that's joined the business today has come with industry experience in terms of your niche versus I work at Refine and I've got 5 years recruitment experience, right? So still might be figuring this out, but like, talk to us a bit about like how, how have you gone about hiring? Like, what do you think you've done well besides actually picking the right people and getting the right people on the journey. What have you done well around that interview process? What do you think you've done well on reflection? 'Cause you will know how hard it is, speaking to other founders, like this part is hard. So what do you think you've done well there? Because I think when we spoke, you said quite a lot of people said that they've been really amazed to see how much of a great team that you built in a fairly short time. So let's talk about that first.

I think one thing that's really important to me is who people are outside of work. As well as like their experience and everything else. Obviously that plays a huge factor in it, but who they are as an actual person outside work. Are they a good person? Do they do the right thing? And what are like the hobbies and interests? I think you can get a lot from a person when you understand what their life's like. I think as well, I have just got lucky in some aspects. Like, you've got to take luck into account sometimes. So some of my hires are people that they've been my candidates, so I've had them interview with my clients, and I'd never put a candidate forward if I didn't think they were, like, spot on. So I've hired candidates that I've put forward to processes. I've hired clients that I've worked with. One of my hires recently is— that we spoke about— is an ex-client. Um, yeah, I think that's pretty much it. And just knowing what to look for in people As in, you know, are they going to do the right thing? Are they going to— no one's ever going to love your business as much as you do, but are they going to love the role and really help take the business to the next level?

And then anything it might have improved— my interview process for my business has definitely improved over time, but anything that you feel like within that that you've done well, do you— I don't know, maybe did it all happen quite organically then if it started with people that you built relationships with from a candidate side?

Yeah, really, really organically. I'm not a formal traditional interviewer, although I know as the business grows, I will need to get some more processes in place around that. But I like to, ultimately we spend 9, 10 hours a day with these people, so you've got to get on with them at some level. So I just see how I get on with somebody, obviously ask all the basic interview questions, there's some sort of task for a second stage. And then one of the hires that I did, I like, watched her on the phone, how she spoke to people, how she did like a little bit of admin, and just got to— got a feel for people like that.

And then with— I think you would have heard us talk about this, but I think some— something that like small business owners or who are on that journey struggle with is, I'm a small business, who'd want to join my small business? Like that, obviously that, that can be a bit of a limiting belief. But I think we spoke about, or it definitely came up at the, the dinner that you came to, around the importance of making sure that you can articulate where you're going.

Yeah.

Like, do you think you did a good job of that? What did that look like? So if I was to speak to some of those early hires and I said like, oh, like, you join Refine, that, that's, that's really cool, like, where, where's the business going? Do you think they would have had a clearer idea of that?

Definitely. I think you've got to bring people into the journey that you're going on. And also see it as we're all in this together. Like, I'm not the, like, I hate the word boss. Like, I'm not the boss, we're all in this journey together. We're all going to make it work. We might have to pivot in some areas sometimes, but ultimately this is where I want Refined to be. This is where I see you if you stay within the business and you do well and you do, you know, a really good job, this is where you can be. So it's really building out like, Getting your dream out of your head almost and being able to put it into somebody else's head. Like when I started, I had no, not even any marketing materials. So it was just me speaking to these candidates, like I'm speaking to you about, you know, where is Refine gonna be in a year's time? Where is it gonna be in 5 years' time, 10 years' time? And do you wanna come on that journey with us? And if you don't, that's absolutely fine. And if you do, like lock in, it's gonna be a great time.

Yeah, I think it's just something I've been speaking to smaller business owners quite a bit about recently where I think the companies that I've seen that attract really great people and do it well, it's because they do a really good job of articulating, "Jeannie, if you join this business, this is how you can achieve your goals within the goals that we have." Yeah, definitely. And your goals as a business have to be bigger than that individual's goals. Talk to us, just to focus on this for a second then, there's always, I feel like, trade-offs with everything that we do. What would you say has been the trade-off in terms of bringing people in industry? Like, because I feel like the benefit of having some recruitment experiences, they get the recruitment process, absolutely. They maybe know what candidate management looks like, how to take a good job briefing. So what, what has that looked like on the trade-off side for hiring people in industry? Obviously the big benefit there because I went from working in insurance to recruiting in insurance. Yeah, the great thing about that switch, I don't know what you found, is I can sort of get on the level with people.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think people really respect that as well and buy into it when you say, I was a commercial director for a beauty brand, I understand what your day-to-day looks like. That goes a long way. But what, what have been the trade-offs, you think, on the recruitment side? Has it taken longer for them to really grasp that recruitment process? I don't know, what have been the maybe harder parts about going down that type of profile?

I think for me, when you really break it down, recruitment is quite a simple job. It's being organised, it's having great time management, it's checking in with people, and it's like making friends essentially. So that you can, if you are, and it comes back to what are you like outside of work again, if that is in you inherently, recruitment will be quite simple to pick up. It's just then learning the basics of it. So candidate management, like you said, making sure your admin's on point, getting back to candidates when you say you're going to get back to them, organising interviews, and also being able to select talent. The key thing was with me, sorry, why I got people from the industry is in our industry, it's, it's complex if you was just going to walk into it and learn it. And I think that is more complex than learning recruitment. So the trade-off is, yes, I have to spend more time training them on how recruitment process looks like. But that time is less time spent than training them on the whole beauty industry, which is absolutely huge. So, I think if they get it, they've got a network that they can bring with them. They might have hired previously in their role, so they know what good looks like and what to look for. Essentially, they know what our clients are looking for. So, yeah, but there is always a trade-off with anything.

And does that, like, you're in the trenches with this now, building a business in today's market. Does that, That is an assumption I have. That was my experience. But does that still play out? Like, when have you found that your team, they're early on in their recruitment career, but they have credibility in conversations and like that's respected? Is that— does that still play out in terms of they say, I've worked in the industry and I'm recruiting for it? Does that sort of still—

Absolutely. Yeah. It goes like such a long way because some of the companies that the people that I've got in the team have worked at are very respected companies in the industry. And they're also quite complex organizations. There's a lot of technicality around it. So I think just having that lingo and that network, like I said earlier, really helps when you're getting in, getting into it.

And then tell us a bit about— because I was really— I thought this was awesome when I learned this about how you approach the new hire piece. And I think it matches up with you saying, I want to grow this business, which is like your onboarding. Just, just tell us I know we're going granular here, but I think it's helpful to hear when there'll be entrepreneurs listening, aspiring entrepreneurs who want to grow their business, and these sorts of things can sometimes be jobs that I'll do that when we get more people, or like— so tell us a bit about, because you've been quite regimented with that, or like what I remember you talking about at the dinner saying like, I've got this on board and this is what we do, I've got it mapped out. Just tell us a bit about that because I think that was really impressive.

Yeah, so there's essentially two sets of onboarding. There's the beauty industry onboarding, so it's like a whistle-stop tour of the beauty industry. What's a brand? What's contract manufacturer? All the rest of it. And then there's the traditional recruitment onboarding, and it's literally me and the new starter. I'll go one-on-one and I will show them everything and like how you input data into our system, It's then all written out step by step. Some people are visual, some people learn in different ways. I am doing something at the minute and it's a learning system where it's all going to be done via video and they can watch video, but I'm conscious that I don't learn like that. I learn by doing. So then I'll let them also do it. And it's just adapting that onboarding piece to everyone's learning style. One thing I'm big on, like, I never in my recruitment career experienced onboarding as such. I was like, there's your phone, there's your laptop. Hope it works out type thing. Like, thank God it did. But I'm like, I'd never want anyone to feel that way if they weren't as confident or as ballsy, perhaps. So yeah, it's all done like step by step. And then at the end of the onboarding, whether it's 1 week or 2 weeks or, you know, some people say longer, I'm like, I am confident I've done everything I can with this person. So, you know, it's sort of up to them at that point. Obviously, I'm there every day. So if they need me, I'm still there like a shadow.

Yeah. And then how have you progress your sort of— we're getting a bit ahead here, but on as we're talking about the team, like, how have you then approached like the rhythm of the week? Like, do you do weekly one-on-ones? You set the team up? Just tell us a bit about that because then I think that that'll sort of tie this together quite nicely, like how you approach that currently with a small team.

We have like— I hate the term open door policy, but we genuinely do. So we're all sat in an office probably similar size to this I sit with the team, like I'm not separated in any way. So we're always interacting with each other. And like, say somebody's on the phone, we're all throwing suggestions around. It's quite an interactive office, but we do do weekly one-on-ones. In general, we use one-up. So it's like your general check-in, where you're at with your stats, where you're at with your KPIs. They're equally as important as, you know, how are you feeling? How are you doing? What do you think you could do better? I actually copied and pasted something you post on LinkedIn. Well, I've, what I've sent around for this week's one-to-ones. So yeah.

Nice. All right. So, and then you've been building that in. Okay. So in the, in this first 6 months, we had a lot of wins, didn't we? Oh, and I know we, I know when we spoke about this, you was like, I want to make sure that we also talk about the challenging parts because it's easy to talk about the good parts, right? So we're going to do that. But In this first 6 months, we did over like 200K, right?

Yeah.

What— how, how long did it take for you to do your first placement?

Like a week, really?

Because obviously you didn't have any covenants, like it was just cracking on straight away, wasn't it? Right?

Yeah.

What, like, what do we think we've done well? Like, on reflection, I'm sure you've done your own reflection on this year, and I know I'm, I'm like this as well, and I know you will be, where you're always thinking about the stuff that you could be doing better, the things you can improve, but What did we do well, do we think, that resulted in having a really good start in the first 6 months? 'Cause not everyone has a start like that. And you've also added in the mix other human beings that you have to manage. You're not also just worrying about your own billings and your own performance. So what, on reflection, what do we think we did really well in those first 6 months?

I think one thing we did really well was just the basics. Like, we were very much focused around clients, So, picking out the best clients that we could possibly work with and trying to build a really genuine relationship with those. I think having that, I think, I'm getting in my words.

That's alright, that's alright, no worries.

I think your first 6 months in business, you've got so much energy. So, I had so much energy because I was like, it's a new shiny thing, this is gonna be amazing. Like, you're doing all your marketing, it's just really fun. You're bringing people in that, are equally as excited, they want to get going, sorry. And it was just that energy and motivation that we all had. It was very much client-first focus, candidate focus, personal branding, like everything, saying yes to pretty much everything. And then once we got like the first few deals and it just really snowballed, we started doing deals in the US and it was just like, this is amazing, like zero hiccups.

So just energy, like, yeah. The thing that I always say to people is, and I don't know if you found this, because like, you are completely right, there is so much like energy, enthusiasm that you have at the start. And then I don't know if you found this, but then there's even within that period, there's a bit of an example, like everyone's been like, oh, like congrats, like hope you smash it, all that. And then I don't know, yeah, it just stops. And then you're like, right, okay. It's just me, I just got to crack on. But you really, it just really was just a positive wave, it sounds like. So you had a really good start. Did you, did you not have any of the, we're a small business, who's gonna buy into that, us? Like, I don't know, like, did you have any of that or not really? I know sometimes people struggle with that.

Do you know what, I'm like, you've just got to be genuine with that because we are what we are. We are a small business, but we're good at what we do and it's believing in yourself enough, I think, to just be confident with that. And I also think businesses have changed now. Like, people don't mind working with smaller businesses. In fact, we found that they actually prefer it. Like, we always say we're large enough to deliver but we're small enough to still care. Like, all our consultants still really care about the businesses we work with. Um, and I'd never want to get to a size where you're just milling out constant— like, people are in and out the door constantly. Like, that's not what I want. So Yeah, we're big enough to deliver, small enough to care.

I like the way that you put that. So you didn't try and make yourself look bigger than you was, or like you didn't, 'cause I think sometimes people do struggle with that. You're just very much authentic about, this is Ruffine, this is where we're at, we're a startup.

Yeah.

And you just brought that energy.

Absolutely. And I think people, so what I did before launching the business was I was not as consistent as I am now on LinkedIn, but I was always conscious of my personal brand and like my reputation. Reputation in the industry. So I tried hard to obviously maintain that, and then when I did launch the business, it made that conversation easier with clients or with candidates. Like, look, I've gone out on my own. There's currently 3 of us at Refine. However, you know, we, we really want to make this work, and I think people buy into that more than if you're trying to pretend like we're a 50-person office, you know, we've got this and that. We just don't. So you get discovered.

Let's talk about the market, because there's a lot that we can't control what happens in the market, but there's also a lot that we can control in terms of being intentional around who we're going after, what we're focusing on. So talk to us a bit about like the strategy here with the market, because that, that can also have a big effect on like what you can achieve.

Absolutely.

So when, when did you— did you really go into this when you was employed, right, in terms of this, this beauty part, or no? Is it— has it been— has it evolved more since you started Refine? Like, how did we think about the market strategy? Tell us a bit about that.

Wow. I remember spending months on this— well, weeks on it— and I was like, how am I going to break this business down? Because where I worked before, they didn't have any, like, siloed areas, if you will. So I was like, right, I really want to break it down because I want people genuinely to be a specialist in one area. So I just spent months drawing literally on pad and paper of like, how am I going to break it down? Is it going to be through like brands or skincare, haircare? Am I going to do it through like retailers, manufacturers? And then am I going to do it by like sector or job type? And I landed on job type eventually. So sales, marketing, MPD, R&D, supply chain, and ops. But yeah, it was just a lot of back and forth. Me and Wayne, obviously, and Gary, like, bounced ideas off of each other for quite some time. We had different ideas of how we should do it, by different postcodes or not. And yeah, there was just a lot of back and forth about it.

So why did you land on the job type? So it's job type into, into, into, so it's like what commercial directors for, or like, how does it work?

So it's job types into into specialisms. So within beauty, personal care, aesthetics, you've then got brands, contract manufacturers, aesthetic businesses, and then it's job types into those businesses. The way I landed on that was pretty much because my first two hires, so one girl came from marketing, marketing background, and the other girl came from sales. So I was like, right, you understand sales, roles in the beauty industry, you understand marketing roles in the beauty industry, this is how we're breaking the business down. And it went from there.

And then I know we hear this all the time, but I think it's always a great reminder, like, again, because you're, you're building this business in today's market, a big chunk of your business has been the UK. I know US is growing, but like, where, where does this help you and your team day to day? Like, is it, is it part of the, the sell in terms of all I do is speak to sales professionals who work for beauty brands. Like, does that, is that what the benefit is on that side? And then also, does it just give you a competitive advantage in terms of every single day your team are growing their networks within that niche? So like, they should know the best people or know who they're trying to speak to. And then if they know that, then they're going to be better than other competitors, faster than other competitors. Like, what is the benefit here to doing it that way that you've experienced?

All of the things you said. So you grow your own network and like support system, candidates and clients, and you just understand that niche. Like, you get a really laser focus. You are speaking to the top 1% of people within that specialism within the industry. So they can grow the network with it, they can learn everything that goes into that job role and that function of the business. But also, I think it's easier for the consultants to build the desk that way because they're not overwhelmed with information of, right, I need to learn about this function in the industry. It's you have to learn this one function, what it does, go after the top 1% of people, identify the top 100 companies that do that and would employ for those types of roles, and that is your desk. It also helps when you're doing things like data, putting data into your CRM. We spoke about Source Whale as well, which has been amazing. Nobody's competing with each other in our business because everybody's got a specialism that they work on. So rather than— obviously we have leaderboards and all the rest of it, but rather having like 5 consultants competing over the same candidates, the same companies, we can work with one company and all 6, 7, 8, 9 consultants can work with them.

Yeah, that is so Super smart. So is that like, I don't know, may still be figuring this out, I'm not sure, but what have you like mapped out that would make you say, right, right, there's a market there? Like how many like accounts or how many potential clients? I don't know if you've looked at that like in terms of, okay, so there's definitely a niche in sales for brand, sales for beauty brands because there's 100 accounts they will hire salespeople. I don't know what makes you go, right, there's a market there, I want to hire someone in that, there's a market there, or are they just all big enough?

Because they're just all big enough. I think what I did was I looked at a, a sort of medium-sized beauty company and I looked at what functions they have in-house, right? So I knew that they had— any business thrives off sales, so I knew they had salespeople, right? I knew then they had a leadership team, SLT team, and C-suite team. They also had a marketing division because marketing feeds into sales. Then what feeds into that? It's like, well, the supply chain feeds into it, the logistics feeds into it, NPD, which is new product development. All brands are constantly trying to keep up with what's the latest thing on the market, so they're all competing in NPD. R&D, which is like research and development, and then quality, because you can't physically sell a product in in the UK without having it quality tested and regulated. So I was like, I'm just gonna do my business the way a SME beauty brand would function out their organogram. I'm gonna do the exact same.

Yeah, super smart. And then has that— this would be an ongoing thing and something that you can keep getting better at— but has that played out so far in terms of one of your consultants got in with a beauty brand on sales but then they got a marketing opportunity and then they got an operations opportunity. Has that played out so far in terms of?

Yeah, we'll service that whole business and we do that quite a lot. So, we're really lucky in the sense that, you know, you don't need 100 clients, like you really don't. You need, I don't know, 10 really good clients. You can really build solid relationships with those and you can service their whole business. And then if they outsource anything, in, we can also service that business as well. So yeah, it's super smart, and we'll do splits on that as well.

I'm going to put you on the spot here. Like, any, uh, any idea what you— what do you reckon your placement per client is?

What, in terms of a percentage, or in terms of like—

so if under— like, if that's working well, it may— you may not measure it this way, but then it might be like per client we've done like 4 placements with this year, which— oh, do you get what I mean?

I mean, one client we've done over 20 placements with. Yeah, and that could be cross-function, across different functions, cross-function, and cross in the US as well. So they've got a site in the UK and a HQ in the US on the East Coast. So yeah, I mean, I don't measure it like that, but we always work multiple roles. We don't— we're not like a smash and grab, so we work multiple roles with just one client.

Yeah, I guess that, that— I'm assuming that's also part of, like, if you're getting in front of these companies, that is also part of the sale in terms of, like, I know I've ended up speaking to you today about this sales role, but this is also what we've done, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it's also like, you would— the more you do that with clients, the better you understand their business and how they operate and what they like, what they don't like. Is it what types of personalities work in that business and what doesn't. So that comes into it. Yeah, you just, I think the longer, and it's like any recruitment business, the longer you work with someone, the better you know them. So it's easier to fill the jobs.

[Speaker] And then I know we're talking about a lot of the things we've done well here. We're going to get into the challenges, but with, I know you're really on this journey now, but up until like what point was you doing a lot of the billings? Cause like in this first 6 months, was a lot of that yourself?

No, it wasn't really, to be fair. So I knew from— we, we spoke about this— is I think for me, because I knew I wanted to build out the team, I sort of— and it was so hard to do, but I passed over a lot to the team, and it was to give them obviously practice. How do you do this job? You've got to do it. You've got to jump in and do it, like get hands-on. Um, but also I didn't want to be stuck not stuck, but beholden to just billing all the time and, you know, speaking to candidates all the time or clients, even though I love doing that, of course. It's just really hard to grow a business when you're— whilst you're billing. Yeah, so early on I recognised, right, I'm gonna have to get this out of my hands and into the consultant's hands as quickly as possible. But then you have the challenge of some clients only want to work with you because they only trust you, so it's then building that trust between between your consultant and your client and the way that you've trained them and the way that they do things, that piece of work could have come from me. Um, so yeah, a lot of like trust-building exercises.

So, okay, let's talk about that. But I think what I'm hearing then is your mindset was very much, if we— I want to win clients to pass on to the team or help grow the team. The reason why I just highlight that is I think a lot of founders that I speak to that maybe are struggling to grow and they say that they want to grow, they may not actually feel that way because they like deep down being at the top of the leaderboard. Yeah, like that's just the truth of it. Yeah, but also part of that which we're going to talk about is, okay, if I'm not the biggest revenue generator here, then what is my purpose? What am I doing? Like, how am I contributing into the business. So it sounds like you're— like, you, your mindset was very much like, I want to win clients for everyone versus I want to prove to everyone that I'm the best. Yeah, it wasn't that. Is that fair?

Definitely. I think you've just got to leave your ego at the front door sometimes and be like, you know that you could do that and you could be at the top. Who's that going to benefit? Yes, it's going to benefit the business, but your workforce they don't feel inspired by that, in my opinion. It might be different business to business, but yeah, I'd rather lift them up and have, you know, one of the team members, she's smashing it one month, or he's doing super great, cheering them on, then it's just constantly me on top of the leaderboard.

So how, how might still be figuring this out, but like, how have we got better at, for people listening that know that they need to pass on important relationships. How have you got better at that? Like, what does that look like? So if I'm still learning, yeah. So like, what is it? What does it look like today? Is it— is there a process around it? Do you like make it a thing where it's like, hey, Mr. and Mrs. Client, I know we've done really great work together, but I want to introduce you to so-and-so who's going to be taking charge of the account? Is it more of like an organic thing that just happens where you sort of bring them on more calls and then they have— I don't know, like, what, what does this look like in terms of handing over relationships so then you don't have people going, oh, like, okay, we're not good enough for you now, for you to deal with us sort of thing? Do you know what I mean?

I mean, I think it's more organic than it is like superficial. I think people who know me, like, I'm— this is me and this is just the way I work. Like, there's no facade or anything. So I just sort of say it how it, how it is. And I'm like, right, Evie or Lucy, I'm mentioning all the girls' names now, I'd be devastated. But they'll jump on a few more calls with me and then they'll start, obviously, they'll work the jobs. So they're gonna have to have client contact. And of course, like, I'll still get, I'll still speak to that client. Like, we'll do calls, check-ins, lunches, whatever. Like, I'm still there for them whenever they need me. But it is sort of more of an organic passover to the consultants. And then also encouraging them to win their own clients. Like there's no better feeling than having your own clients and, you know, going for coffees with them or taking them out for lunch and doing all that client development. So as they grow more confident with perhaps my originally my clients, then they've got that confidence to do it for their own as well.

And then isn't about a single person doing something wrong, but this will be part of the process. How have you managed people doing things that maybe you wouldn't have done it in that way with a client? Like, because that's the hard part, like, because you just want to jump in How have you got better at that? What does that look like?

Again, a learning curve. I think, look, because we are so early on, you are— you're always going to be like, not that it's make or break because it never is, but you're like, oh, don't do that, or this is how I would have done it. And it's just about having, again, that open conversation with somebody like, have you thought about doing it this way perhaps? Because my way is not always right. I did this I did 360 recruitment for 9 months. I actually don't know anything. My consultants know more than me at this point. They've done it longer. But yeah, it's just about having that conversation and also speaking to your client like a human being as well. I think a lot of people get like, they'll see CEO or founder or sales director, like these people are normal, ordinary people with a great job title.

Yeah, I think The key thing to remember there is like you, like you just said, you might think it's the end of the world, but it normally isn't.

Never.

So, and then also there's a lot to say, like just being authentic around, just owning it. Oh yeah, you know what, we did do that wrong. Yeah, we're not going to do that again. Or yeah, we've learned from that. Just owning those things as well.

I had a really awkward conversation, like it's not always sunshine and rainbows, rainbows. I've got a frog in my throat. Um, with one of my clients and he was like, look, you've done a really bad job on this role. Like, I don't know if it's the market or if you and one of your consultants have just not worked it correctly, whatever it might be, but we're just not happy. And they were on a retainer as well. So I was like devastated, obviously. But instead of being defensive and like, no, it's the market, it's this, it's that, it's like, right, could we have done something different? Let's look at what we have done and what we could have done on this job. Let's speak to the client like they're a human being and fix it. And if we fix it, great, we'll probably work with that person for the rest of our lives or, you know, for however long. And if we don't fix it, let's just move on. Luckily, we did fix that certain situation, but I think it's just about having conversations and self-reflecting sometimes of you're not always right.

Yeah, you've got, you've got to be always willing to take accountability and responsibility for firstly What was they not happy about?

They, do you know what, it was a bit of a nightmare role, but they didn't think the candidate selection were the best candidates that they'd seen. They'd, and this isn't on us, as you know, in recruitment, they'd offer a candidate and the candidate got a counteroffer and stuck, so it started the whole process again. It was like a time-sensitive active role that they needed in the business. And they were like, I think they were getting frustrated because they got so far down the process, offered somebody, pulled out, and it's just like we're back at square one now with this.

Um, yeah, they're hard, them ones.

Nightmares. You want to walk away, but you're like, I can't, my ego won't let me.

Let's talk about— I, I feel like looking at your journey, the thing that we can, we to talk about. The thing that might have been really hard here is when we have some like tougher months. Yeah, because for like those first early months, we had so much go right. Like we were making good money, the team were doing well, and it's almost like— I've spoken about this a few times— a lot of people that leave the recruitment industry or maybe leaving that first year, I think if we were to look into it, I think more people would leave if they had a good start and then it got worse versus it started bad and then I got— and then it got better. Because then when you've had this period where like things have gone really well and then things start to not go well, you're probably doing the same things as you did when things were going well.

Yeah, yeah.

So you're like, hang on a minute, what— I'm doing the same things here, what am I doing wrong? Really started doubting yourself. So what's been the tricky period for you? Like, let's just, let's talk about that. And there may not be like one particular moment, but what were the tough, the like tougher months for you? 'Cause I know it hasn't all been plain sailing.

[Speaker] Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so open to speak about it as well. 'Cause I'm like, everyone struggles with certain things. For us it was, so we launched business of June, in June last year. That first sort of 6 months, amazing, phenomenal. We grew the business to a team of 10 people, sorry, 9 people. We moved premises like 3 times. There was so much momentum, so much going on. Quarter 1 of this year, again, started off really, really strong. January was a little bit slow, but it's January. And then Quarter 2 swung round and everything that could have gone wrong went wrong in Quarter 2. So I was like, oh my God, what is going on? Because I'd not experienced any bumps in the road. Genuinely, it was just plain sailing and everything just went wrong. And I was like, is it something I'm doing? Is it the team that I've got around me? Is it the market? And you just start to question every single thing.

When you say everything, give us a bit of a flavour. What were some of the things that Went wrong.

Like processes had I set up, and deep down I knew like the infrastructure of my business is solid, but I was questioning like, are my processes wrong?

What do you mean? Like you had way more dropouts or what you had, what do you mean by process?

Oh, I mean like, yeah, dropouts.

Right.

Like is the candidate process wrong? Is our, am I using the right CRM? Like every shadow. Now when I look back, I'm like, that is a ridiculous thought. Thought, but you analyze every aspect of your business from the people that are in it yourself, the, the people that you've got around you, the CRM that you use in the marketing, just absolutely everything. And then I was looking at the market, what's going on. Like, there was loads of redundancies. I'm like, is this just like the downward turn? Now that we're out of that, am I— it was just because everyone was on holiday in April. But genuinely, and we also got— I think we just had our period of toughness in that quarter, and it all just came at once, and it was incredibly exhausting. I had a couple of staff members leave. In hindsight, you know, absolutely the right decision for me and for them, but at the time that hurts you because you're such a small team. Yeah, you take it personally. And also, when you're a group of 9 people and you're all quite similar in personality and you all get along really, really well. When somebody leaves, that, that has a ripple effect on the rest of the team. So you're like, oh my gosh, this is so bad.

Um, so what was it that you found? And because you're going to have those moments again, absolutely. So like, what, what was it that you found really hard? Was it basically for the first time you was doubting your ability to make the right decision? Like, it sounds like that was And obviously that can show up daily, weekly. Is it mainly that that you found really hard? Because all of a sudden the signals were, hang on, we're doing what we've done and we're not doing the billings and we're not seeing the outcomes that we've used to. Like, then you start looking at different things with just the self-doubt.

It was the self-doubt. And I also think because, because you're so in your own head about it, you start to question like, am I a good leader? Am I a good manager? If I hide the Have I— where else have I made a mistake? And it's really like, it sort of eats you up. And the way I deal with that is like doing all like your self-care things, like getting out into the gym again and trying to get your routine back on track. So yeah, definitely self-doubt. You question just everything that you do. I mean, I still do that today, but I'm not as bad with it.

Yeah, I think the— I've spoken to— I think it came up, I even— I think I shared a post about it. And I think, although— and we'll talk about— you've, you've ultimately got someone else that you can go to, you've got mentorship, you are a solo founder, right?

Yeah.

So you don't have a co-founder to really like feel and see the things that you're feeling in your business.

Yeah.

But you can really easily catastrophize small things, can't you? And it can just end up being a bit of a rabbit hole.

Yeah.

Where something goes wrong and you can go from a placement not happening and then all of a sudden you're starting to think this whole business is going to fail.

Yeah, that can happen within hours, minutes.

Yeah, literally. So it's like, yeah, just maybe you got in a bit of a cycle of that, cycle of that.

And I think when I'm very much I mean, I'm not overly spiritual, but I'm very much an energy person. So when I'm high energy, everybody else around me is high energy. And it's this— I even started to become like, I was going to work and I was like, what is going to go wrong today? Whereas previously I was like, today is going to be amazing, what's going to go right, what have we got going on, this is happening, this is happening. And I was genuinely finding myself driving to the office and I was like, God, I wonder what today is going going to bring. And that's just not me as a person, but I got like that because I was— the self-doubt started creeping in, and then you're looking at things and you— it feels like the world's blowing up when in reality it just isn't.

Yeah, and those— I've had those periods, and like, it just becomes all you think about. Yeah, but then you walk into the office and then your team aren't going to know that, and you're not going to show that, that sort really how you feel. And that's also the hard thing about it as well, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like that poker face sometimes, which is so hard to do because you've got a million and one things going on. And my fear always is like, I have a responsibility to the people. I feel like I sort of work for them because at the end of the day, you know, people have got bills, mortgages. One of my team members is having a baby, and I'm like, this business and the way I've set this up has got to support people's lives and their livelihoods as well as my own. So yeah, you just feel this level of like responsibility and pressure almost to make it work. And at the end of the day, you know, as much as I've got Wayne and Gary, the decision's mine, and I've got to go in every day, make big decisions that affect 9 people's, 10 people's lives. So yeah, it's hard.

And then anything— I'm not actually sure there's any one thing that you can do that can snap you out of those moments. I think sometimes you sort of just got to go through it.

Gotta go through it.

But anything, I don't know, like when that, when maybe those thoughts, feelings, experiences show up again in this journey that you're on, because it will. Anything that you feel like you're gonna do differently or trying to, easy to say now, but anything that maybe you're gonna be a bit more mindful of to do that you think might help make sure that that period doesn't go on as long as it did maybe this time?

[Speaker] Yeah, I think that you've gotta find your thing in life, like whether that's the gym or, you know, going out for food or meeting your friends or whatever your life is outside of work, you've gotta hone in on that and use your support systems Speak to people about it because you're probably not the only person going through something similar. I like wearing the huge group and somebody mentioned something the other day and 10 other people are having the same issue. So trying to speak to people about it, like, I'm a bit of an open book. I probably share too much. I'm like, this going wrong, this going wrong. But it does genuinely offload it. And also just sticking to the basics when things are feeling like they could be going wrong. I think that's key because you're like, that's what got you to where you're at. So just go back to the basics, don't overcomplicate anything. Um, and yeah, just try and think, we'll get through it. Like, there's worse things happening in the world.

Yeah, I'm a huge believer in just not overlooking like outside of work.

Yeah, yeah.

Because I know like I've been on this sort of journey myself now for over like 5 years, and I don't think you do switch off. I don't think personally, in terms of there will, there will be things that come into your mind that you think about. But I think really what I've had to get better at is just when I'm outside of work, I'm with friends or with my partner, is like you have to be present. And that's something I've got way better at. But I do think part of the journey is like it like it's some— for the most part, if you enjoy it, like it's something you're thinking a lot about, you have ideas around all the time. Yeah. But I, I do think what can help you have a better chance of snapping out of these periods where you really self-doubt and you have negative thoughts and that just sort of cascades is really looking at your life outside of work.

Yeah.

Like, are you being kind to yourself outside of work? Do you have good habits? Whatever that looks like for you. Because I'm just a huge believer in, like, if you're performing outside of work, then you're just giving yourself a better chance of performing inside of work.

I agree.

And it's so easy, particularly in this part of the journey that you're in, to put all your eggs, all your energy in the work basket.

Absolutely.

It's just so easy to do. And I know there's seasons and periods where that's required, but that— the trade-off there is then this other area of your life suffers. And then when things go bad, it's going to feel even worse if you're like, work's not good, my relationship's not good, like, I'm not— yeah, do you know what I mean? And then all of it is bad.

I think for me it's like, I have— if I commit to something, I do follow it through, and I've always been like that. That's just how I am. So if I say I'll, I'll do something, I will genuinely do it. So for me, if I'm putting all of my eggs into the work basket for, I don't know, 3 years, that is just what it is. Um, you do obviously have to have your moments of like self-care and, you know, being around— it's not even your partner sometimes, it can be your friends, your family, even your work colleagues, like being present with them instead of just being in your own head when you're around other people, which is so easy to do. So I think living in the moment and being present, but also knowing that— I think as long as I always say to myself, if I go home at night and I put my head on the pillow and I've done a hard day— I've had a hard day at work and I know I've done everything I can for that day, I am happy with that. It's when I don't do everything and I'm like, it keeps me up at night. You're never going to be able to do anything though, that's the problem.

Yeah. How— like, just curious to get your thoughts on this, how have you— you may have fallen into the trap, may not have, but Have you found yourself in this first year really getting pulled in different directions or like looking at different products, looking at like— because you're, you know, you're making good money. Like, I got here, you know, I had a good start, 67% profit margins. That can then be very easy to be like, right, I'm gonna get this new thing, I'm looking at this. That can also then be a bit of a distraction for a lot of people that I speak to.

Yeah.

Have you, have you found that in this first year? Because I know, I know founders struggle with this and they're we're always being sold to.

Yeah.

Like, how have you found that? Like, have you had periods where you're like, you know what, we've had this problem, so I'm gonna look for a solution for that? Or are you, I don't know, have you?

Yeah, I think I've always gone quite slow and steady. So I'm quite, I'm not a huge spender out the business because I've got responsibilities to pay for. But I also think if there's a genuine issue and it can't be solved by what we have today, then absolutely I'll invest in it. If I think it's going to make the business better, if it's going to make the team faster, smarter, stronger, whatever it is, then 100% I'll do my research. I'll speak to people that's like use the product or, you know, people that work at the business that I'm looking at. And then I'll invest and I'll do it smartly. So like for us, Source Whale, I probably spoke to Source Whale back in January, February. I waited it out for a little while, really looked into it, spoke to so many people about it, and then I invested in it last month. So I'm not just a person that would spend cash frivolously, I would say, for the sake of it. But then again, I do believe in having like the best of the best for the team and for myself as well.

Yeah, first, it's very— yeah, okay, nice. That's helpful for people. Well, I just wanted to ask you quickly before we get on to this US piece, you know, we're talking about that period that, that you had of like things going well and then things didn't go so well. You also had a team experience that. So how did you approach that? Because that must have also been hard because I'm assuming your team would have experienced like wins, things going well, and then you had this period where even for them things weren't going well. So like, how, how did you manage that? What did that look like with the team?

I think there was a lot of like conversation around it is a like putting on a poker face again because you actually don't know what it is. So you're almost like, no, this is just a season. Recruitment's never gonna always be plain sailing. Like, it is ups and downs, it's roller coasters, it's sales at the end of the day, and you're never going to win 100% of the time. So because we'd had that really good start, I think that did seem what it could have been like. I think for some of them, especially the ones without recruitment experience, which is my whole team, if they'd have had a really, really bad start, they would have been like, sack this, I'm not making any commission, I'm not making any money. It's really difficult But because they'd had such a good start and a good, you know, they had momentum, I was like, this is just the troughs of recruitment. Like, it will get better. So there was a lot of conversations around that. And also like, how can we as a team do one, be 1% better every day? Are we getting the most out of every conversation? Are we doing this? Are we doing that? So just a lot of discussions and yeah, asking their opinion as well because they're also feeling feeling it. So yeah, nice.

Okay, when— so quite early on you was doing stuff in the US, but you've never done that before in terms of the, the US market? We did that previously.

I'd done it, I'd done one placement there, but I had a really good contact who, when I actually launched the business, he flew over from the US and we went for dinner. Um, so he became a client. He was moving roles at time. So he was my first client that I had with Refine. And from him— oh, sorry— from him, I just sort of branched out from there, really. It came naturally because a lot of our businesses that we work with are international businesses, so they'll often have an entity in the UK, in Europe, and in the US. So it's just about having conversations like, right, we've done this in the UK for you, did you you know, we actually service the US. Now, from day one, it was always me doing those roles until 2 months ago when I brought somebody in to obviously help grow that part of the business because the US is absolutely gigantic. So yeah, that's how that came about.

So really, it sounds like you opened— so it came organically through relationships that you'd already had more on the UK side?

Yes.

Yeah. Right, okay, fair. And then what, what's like your take on it? Like, I've said this to a lot of people, but it definitely isn't a silver bullet.

No.

I think for me the easiest way to put it is it's just as hard, but as I said at the start, the financial return can be nearly like 3 times what it is in the UK. What's been your experience of doing more and more business in the US and now even doubling down on it even more? Like, what, what's been your experience of it? Because you do a lot of business in the UK, like, how do you feel it compares?

I think for us, and we had this conversation yesterday with— I've got a guy called Tom in my team who's, who's doing a lot in the US. It's the penetration, like, you've got to get into these businesses.

Is that harder?

That is a lot harder than in the UK. I think the UK has got to a point where they genuinely, they want the best recruiter to represent them in the market, but they're also open to to working with, you know, not so great recruiters or not specialists in the area, whereas the US is a little bit more tight, so it's more hard— more difficult, sorry, to get into them. I think once you're in with a business though, if— as long as you do a good job, they will keep you as their service provider forever. So it's about delivery then. So it switches quite quickly to, right, I'm now in. That's like the first win that we've got, but we have to deliver on these roles, and if we don't, that's sort of the end of the road for us with this client. I think they're more ruthless, and I think their processes move obviously a lot quicker. People have, you know, a 2-week notice period, wherein in the UK it's 3 months as standard. So yeah, I think there's a lot of nuances to the US, but it's definitely where we need to go. I mean, the economy is huge in the beauty industry there.

And then how have you— might still be figuring this out, but how have you— again, same approach to market, like, have you had like a focus on like state and then your niches?

Or—

because if you can't say like, yeah, we do beauty brands for the US, like, that's just too big, you know what I mean? So how have you— you might still be carving that out. Get that you've leveraged existing relationships, which is super smart, and then sort of maybe just mushroomed out from there, but Now you've been doing it more consistently, you've even brought someone on. I'm sure there's a bit of a plan there. Like, what does that look like? 'Cause again, I think that's sometimes where people go wrong. Like, they don't have more of a focus from the start.

[Speaker] Yeah, I think when you look at a map, like, if you was to take a map of the US, it is huge. You physically can't do the whole of the US. So for us, what we did was, the guy that I've got specializing in it, who will eventually live over there, His previous role, he was commercial lead at a beauty brand, so he's doing commercial roles because he gets them. He's probably hired over 100, 200 people in that role. So, he's doing strictly commercial roles within the US. Then I looked at the map, obviously, and we're just doing East Coast. So, you've got, you know, New York in there, which is a huge hub for what we do, and we're sticking to that. That is then his territory. If you will. As we grow out the business in the US and, you know, hopefully he becomes a manager of that department and we, you know, bring in more heads there, we'll look at then splitting it into sales, marketing, NPDs, pretty much replicating what we've done in the UK, but we will have to do it by territory in the US, just the sheer size and time zones.

But you're doing it all from the UK currently?

Yeah, although he has spent a lot of time over there, he's got family there, so.

Okay.

Whereas I don't.

Yeah, fair. And what, like, main— again, having these conversations, the main trade-off is like the hours?

Yeah, I think the hours, and I think, I think the hours and the resilience you have to have for the US is different to the UK in our experience.

What, what, in what sense?

I think there's a reluctance around— so for us, client side, people just don't answer the phone.

Really?

Yeah, you can't get them on the phone. It's really, really difficult. And it's just, you know, about sort of having that mentality of, right, this is just my patch because it is It's so easy to look at everything and think, wow, I am so overwhelmed with the sheer size of this. So it's just about sticking to one thing that you're good at, one role type, or, you know, two or three role types and one area.

Just being willing to say no to stuff.

Being willing to say no to stuff, yeah. We had a client recently that was like, we've got these roles, and I was like, they would pay us so much money.

You said no.

We said no, yeah, they were outside our niche. They were in our industry, but we don't do that role type. It was a quality role and we just don't do it, so we turned it down.

I think that'd be the right thing in the long term.

I agree.

Just because you want to be known for something, don't you?

Absolutely.

I think you do. I do think you wouldn't want to say yes and then not deliver, and then that's the perception. I think you do get a lot of respect to go, you know what, really appreciate that, thank you so much. We do really focus on this, and the reason for that is we know we can do a good job. Yeah, we're doing— we would actually be starting from scratch if we just did that search for you. So I do think there's, there's a lot of power in saying no. Okay, talk to us a bit about— you do a lot of your business and you're talking about they're not on the phone, on WhatsApp. Let's just talk about this for a sec. Like, what—

like, I'm shocked that shocks people.

Yeah, like, what— so when, when you, when you said, like, when you say that, what do you mean? Like are we doing candidate feedbacks over WhatsApp or it's just like, I don't know, like what we doing? Like am I just texting and then trying to get a meeting? How are we using WhatsApp?

I mean, the way I operate outside of work is through WhatsApp. I got here today through WhatsApp. I don't know, it just, I, that's how I always have done it. I sort of knew no other way. Where I'd worked before, you was given a phone to, to work from and like a laptop and it was like, that's just the way I adopted and I found it worked quite well. The people that we speak to in our industry, you know, they're like me and you, like they're just, they're down to earth, they're great people, they're creatives, they're salespeople, you know, they operate also through WhatsApp. So we just do a lot through there, like we'll do a lot of voice messages, like if you can't get a hold of a candidate, I'd rather voice message them and let them know feedback rather than just send an email or a text. I think it's a little bit warmer. And I also think moving a relationship onto WhatsApp, there's something in that from going on, from going, sorry, from like an email and then you just WhatsApp in. It's just really easy. Now, obviously there's like logistics around recording that into your CRM and making sure your notes are all up to date so people can see what you've been doing on it. Which we've gotten around, but it's, yeah, I just do everything through WhatsApp. The whole team do, and it works really well for us.

But we like starting sales conversations through WhatsApp?

Yeah, everything.

Really?

Yeah, everything.

So if I'm trying to, if you're a hiring manager in a brand business, WhatsApp you as my first touchpoint?

Not the first, but definitely like second.

Really?

Or third, yeah.

What, we voice noting in there, or we just dropping a text being like, if you get there, cell number or phone number.

Okay, if you ever receive a WhatsApp and it's, say it's a random number and it's a voice message, you're gonna listen to the voice message. I would, so I also think other people would. Would you? No, I just think you are gonna. And rather than getting— look, every recruiter is flooding inboxes with— you're doing spam CVs, you're doing, um, Everyone's on LinkedIn, voicemail, and videos now. Everyone's doing the same thing. I'm like, how can we be slightly different? Let's just send a voice message on WhatsApp. And I thought it was the most simplest thing, but it's really worked for us. And I think it's more friendly. People understand you, your picture's on there, you've got your website link on there, they can click and see. And if they don't respond, they don't respond. It's not the end of the world.

And what about, this probably won't happen as much, people saying, unless you tell me otherwise. But like you just said, it does feel more personal. So like, do you get people that are like, oh my God, why have you voiced note me? We've never spoken before. Why have you sent me a message?

You get the odd one and it's like, well, why not?

See how your team aren't running into it loads?

No, not really. Like, the reception is usually quite warm back. Now I'm not gonna say it's one for absolutely—

it's not a silver bullet. It never is.

No, never. But it's you know, we might have— and I think it— you've got to backtrack it. So say, for example, you're doing your steps before that, that process in your cadence. These people should know who you are by now because you're on the LinkedIn profile, you're posting relevant content that's relevant to your specialism, you might have dropped them an email, you might have asked for an introduction from somebody else, and then you're WhatsApping them. Like, at that point, if they're were rude, I'd just be like, there's something wrong with you, and actually I probably don't want to work with you. And if they're like, no, not right now, I'm like, cool, that's fine.

I do agree, there is something, there is something that feels more personal about WhatsApp.

Yeah, there is.

And then just to get granular for a moment, what, what's like the, the infrastructure? So has everyone in your team got like a business account WhatsApp? Because that's different, isn't it? So you can have a different— so you're— so like your WhatsApp when I'm texting you, that's your business account.

Yes.

And you have your— you have a different number which is your personal.

Yeah.

So otherwise it can get messy, can't it, if it's all your personal number?

Definitely. And also, like, you don't want— for the consultants, I want them to be able to switch off at nighttime, so coming to work refreshed and all the rest of it. So they obviously have their own mobile phones, and then when they start, as part of their onboarding, they'll get a mobile phone and that will have preloaded into with their business WhatsApp. So the name, the website, the phone number, that's all linked up to like a VoIP system. Yeah. Um, so that's that works.

Yeah, that's, that's important, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

So what, how are we, how are we gonna continue to win in the US then? Because I know that's a big part of the, the plan going into this second year. That's a big part of your growth plan. What, what are the important milestones? Like, what are you really driving towards? Because again, I think you can very easily be racking up costs in the US if you're going big there, whether that be base salaries. You might be thinking about an office in New York. That is not cheap. So what, what are like, what are the milestones that you're working towards that you're going to go, right, we've done this? It might not be revenue, but you know, we work with this amount of accounts, we've got this track record, time to hire another person, time to keep doubling down on it. Like, what, what are we working towards?

So for us I mean, our plan, just to be really open and honest with you, so by January I want 3 additional heads for the US team, so that'd make a team of 4 in the US. At that point, I think you've got a, a business in that sense. It's not just one person sort of, you know, freestyling it. You've got 4 people that all do specialist areas. To get to that, we're doing, um, I keep hitting that, we're doing, um, so we're pushing retained because we need some guarantees that this is going to work because it is such a big investment. So sell and retain first, really trying to move away from that contingent model across the whole business, to be fair, like not just the US, the UK as well, just to bring stability. Like we're a service provider, so why aren't we paying? Why aren't people paying upfront? So yeah, moving towards the retain model, gathering a pool of clients, I say, any one desk for our business, you need 5 good clients. So getting those 5 good clients onboarded, all on retainers, they might have 6, 7, 8 roles each. And then at that point is the headcount. So really growing that desk and then attacking it from, from all angles.

You thinking of having 4 people in the UK or figuring it out?

So definitely Tom will— the person that I've got now doing the US, he will definitely definitely relocate to New York. His family are there, his, you know, a lot of his life's over there and he's got the ability to. I've not actually come to the, where I, I've not come to the decision of where I want the team to be based, whether that's a satellite team or whether they're UK-based or whether they're going to be based in the US. It's one of those, it's going to have to play out before I make that decision, I think. I think.

But for you to feel more comfortable to keep putting more resources, energy into it, it's— we, we need at least the person that we have now to have those 5 good clients.

5 good clients. And billing-wise, I mean, you want to— for the US, I would say you need to be doing like a million at least in the US for it to be sustainable.

Dollars? Yeah. Yeah, fair. Okay. I mean, that is, that is exciting though. Like, have you— this has come up recently, might still be figuring that out, I don't know. But like we've said, the, the average deal size is very different. Yeah, so usually different. Have you run into anything— might still be figuring this out, I don't know— but like, for example, I spoke to a founder the other week where they're like in their first 12 months of the US journey, always typically done UK, and then the UK, you know, average deal size compared to the US is very different. So I know that he's had people look at that team and go, hang on a minute, like, they're earning way more money and it's just as hard. I don't know if you've had that, like—

not yet, to be fair. Um, I mean, it probably will come up at some point, but it's like, be good at what you're good at. So if I've hired you because I've seen potential that you can earn a load of money doing sales roles in the UK, then that's what you're going to do. And of course, if people then want to move over to the US desk because it's more money, then of course I'm going to let them. I just need to find replacements for them. They could help me do that.

It's probably definitely something you might run into.

I think a million percent.

It's easy for people to look across and go, oh my God, they've just done 2 deals and that's 70K. Yeah, it's easy to look at and go, I want that. But then, as you know, can they do that though?

Can you deliver that? Because the US is, it's a different ball game and it's late nights.

That's what I mean, it's that and that. It's like, are you actually willing to— so okay, yeah, you've seen them do that, great, that's the outcome, but are you actually willing, push comes to shove, to do that?

I mean, it's like everything in life. It's like, if it was easy— I hope I've not got a sweat patch. Um, yeah, it's like everything in life. So if it was easy, everyone would do it. It's just not that easy. So give it a go. If you're good at it, fantastic. Like, it's more money for the business, it's more money for you, it's more money for me. It's that— it cross-pollinates across everyone. It's a good thing, but I don't think everyone's cut out for it. I don't think everyone's cut out for how hard it is, how different the market is, how quickly it moves. And also the late nights, they're a killer. They're really, really difficult.

So along this journey then, in the sort of first year, how helpful has it been to have a mentor, or the way that I would see it is like some accountability. I think that is when I just speak to a lot of founders, particularly solo founders, you've got to hold yourself accountable. Like, I'm in that category, and, and some months you can do that, some months you may not. Like, how helpful along the way has it been to have, you know, people on the journey where you can get advice? They've maybe run into a lot of problems that you ran into this year, so they can offer their perspective. But also, I guess a big part of it might be that accountability piece. Like you've said, like, these are our goals and you've got people that you're going to see even on a monthly basis, or maybe when things are getting tough you might see them a bit more and they're going to go, well, have you done this? No, I haven't actually. No, I need to do it. Because it's so easy to— when you're on your own, you've got to hold yourself accountable. So what— how helpful has that been for you on this journey, do you think?

I think it's been super helpful. I think my personality, I am a very accountable person just with everything that I do. So I can't— I don't struggle with that side of it. The thing that I would say it's helpful for me for is the advice, because I do not know everything about recruitment. Like, I'm completely confident holding my hands up and saying that I don't have 10 years experience. I don't even have 2 years experience before opening this business, so I really just don't know anything. And The way I was shown how to recruit, I've now learned just isn't the right way to do recruitment. So it's about having somebody that you can bounce ideas off, somebody that you can ask for advice. Like, I can go to Wayne and Gary and be like, look, I'm thinking about implementing this. Do you think it's a good idea? Have you used this piece of tech? Do you know people here? And he's like, oh, I know the owner of that business. I can get you a deal on it or whatever. It's just It's just having somebody that's been on your journey but 20 years ago that has gone through, like, I think his business went through like a credit crunch, the recession, everything. So it's like, Gina, you're going to be fine, you're going to get through it. So it's having that sort of figure to be like, right, you're all right, actually. And also to teach me different ways. Like, the way I see it is very different to how Wayne or Gary might see things. Like, we've had not necessarily clashes, but the WhatsApp thing's a prime example. I was like, we do everything on WhatsApp. So I wanted to buy everybody a mobile phone when we first started and they were like, no, do it through headset and like plug a headset into your laptop. I'm just like, that is just not my style. Like I'm more on the go or do you know, like I do things on my mobile phone. I don't do things sat at a desk. A laptop, like to move around. And I mean, it's paid off now. So I'm glad I went with that decision. But just having different perspectives and different ideas is good because you do get in your own head so much. And I think you can have, whether it's a mentor, an investor, an advisor, a friend, or just like industry peers that you can go to, as long as you find your like tribe of people where you feel safe to open up, like you're going to be fine.

So really just advice, soundboards.

Yeah, absolutely.

So going in, like, I know we're in it now, but like, there's a lot of things that you can do, but what are you really doubling down on in this second year that you feel like if we really stay disciplined with this, we really focus on this, we should be sitting down here in another year's time, two years' time, and we're on the journey, we keep going in the right direction? Like, what are you continuing to double down on?

I mean, for us, it's always doing the basics right. It just is. Like, I had a meeting with the seniors today and I was like, every conversation you have, get the most out of it. Like, speak to your candidates like they're your best friends, speak to your clients like they're just normal people. So really doing all the basics right, looking at the stats, and we use— I mentioned earlier— one to just have a view of like, where are we at today? How many CVs have you sent? How many first agents have views have you got? How many finals have you got this week? Just drilling down on the basics and the KPIs. Everyone hates that word, but it's actually a good thing to have in your business. I think if you don't have them, you've not got a clue what's going on. BD, like, is the lifeblood of any business. So really utilising the tech that we've got today, shout out to Sourcewell, through you, and just doubling down on BD, getting in front of people is massive for us. Like, we do a lot, we spend a lot of money on events, and some people would look at that and they'd be like, why are you spending X amount on flying to Las Vegas or Italy or going down to London every other week? And it's like, because nobody else is. And I think people miss that human connection of sitting in front of somebody face-to-face and being able to meet people. So really investing in face-to-face connection as well as obviously Teams, phone calls, all the rest of it. And just trying to build a business where we've got, I mean, we've got it today with solid infrastructure where we could scale and bring in 20 heads tomorrow if we wanted to and just have that sustainable growth. The US is obviously gonna really impact that and that's gonna be a massive thing for us this year and a really big focus point. But yeah, just all of those points.

Yeah, I think the thing is it, it never usually is like a very unique specific thing. It is often those things that you're saying. Yeah, it's just doing those, the basics, like you said, really well consistently. Even when we're doing really well, still doing them, still doubling down. Yeah, definitely agree with you on the like getting in front of people, investing in that. I think that goes a really long way.

Massive.

And I guess along this journey as well, just like staying true to what you guys are about and what sort of helped you get to that first year and what you've done, right? Keep staying true to that. And then for you, for you to keep leveling up, learning yourself, right? That never stops. Because if we want to keep the business going where we want it to be, then that's what I learned. You've got to keep leveling up yourself, right?

Yeah.

So it just never stops. So look, I think this, like, your story is like what I love about this industry. Like, 16 months recruiting experience You're now on this entrepreneurial journey and we've built a great business, right? I know you're going to think there's things that we can be doing better, but always, always— but like, in terms of where we're at, where you've got to, like, you should be super proud.

Thank you.

And really exciting things, right, in terms of what's around the corner, what can be doubling down on. So loads there for people to learn from. And, um, thanks a lot for joining me on the pod.

Thank you, it's been amazing.