The Pulse Group Story: How Two Founders Built a £1.4M Business From Scratch with Ricky & Tony

Ricky, Tony, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks for having us. Good to meet you as well.

Uh, I know we haven't done one of these face to face. First time. First time. Tony, I know we— I hope you don't mind me saying— took a bit of convincing. I know we're out of the comfort zone, but we are. Yeah, we've got some good goals to this conversation. We want to try and make this as helpful as possible for people. And also, I know a lot of people out there really enjoy the like first year in business stories. Like it's just really helpful.

Yeah.

As we'll get into both of your stories, it took a while for you to take that initial leap. So I'm sure you appreciate there's a lot of people out there maybe listening that love the idea of being a recruitment entrepreneur, taking that leap. So having people share transparently, honestly around what that journey's been like, what's been hard, what hasn't been as hard is really helpful.

Sure.

So our goal with this conversation really is to break down what this first year has been like, like the main lessons. What we feel like we've done really well that's played out, and also some of the, the smart things that we've done, um, looking back that we think have been good moves. And then most importantly, what we then continue to double down on going into the future. So like I always like to do, give people some context before we get into this. So let, let me know if I get any of this, this wrong in terms of some of the background, but we always like sharing stats like this in recruitment So between you, over 25 years combined recruitment experience?

No, more than that. Double that.

Double that.

Okay.

Yeah, 20 years my side.

24 years your side? Yeah, I think it's 24 this year, I think, which is just frightening to say.

Okay. Yeah, so like, yeah, a load of recruitment. Yes, 40 plus. Yeah, too much. So you guys have known each other for a while as well?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, worked together previously, but both been on different journeys. Um, So in terms of what we're going to talk about, it's going to be this Pulse journey.

Yeah.

Pulse Group. So the numbers I've got here in terms of just give people background, because I know people always really appreciate this. So launched the business in September 2024. Um, self-funded, probably had around circa 50 grand each to put into this business. So gave yourself around a 6-month runway. Team today in terms of where we've got 8 heads. 5 recruiters, 3 on the solution side?

Uh, 5 if you include Tony and I. Yeah, cool.

And that, then we'll get into that. So then, um, in terms of like revenue, the numbers we've got here. So first, like full year, $1.4 million, and then $1.1 million EBITDA, obviously pre-dividends and all of that, which we won't go into, but that gives everyone a bit of an idea what that was made up of and how we achieved that was circa 80 placements across like 17 clients. Um, we're going to get into this, but Pulse Solutions was also born in this period. Currently around 250Ks of that, 1.4 was from, uh, Solutions, but there's potentially a lot more. That's going to look a bit different again this year, which is exciting. All going well.

Yeah.

Um, so we've got contracts, but then a lot of the, of that 1.4 has been, uh, perm, and that's all been UK.

Correct.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. UK. Yeah, yeah.

About 70/30 contract and 30% perm.

And it's been very much like company-led versus like industry-led.

Very much so.

Here's like to add in there. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. So let's just take a bit of a step back then. I think what I'm always interested to hear from people is, and you guys would have seen this in your careers, when people go out on their own, The first thing that you'll start hearing people say is, we, we wanted to go out on our own and we wanted to do it differently. So I'm always interested to sort of hear how people thought through that, what that looked like for them. And with you guys working in a variety of different recruitment companies, having a lot of different experiences working for different people before we got to this point of starting your own recruitment business, let's start there in terms of like what is it that we felt like you wanted to do really differently, what you wanted to really double down on? So I'll come to you first on that, Rick, if that's okay. Like, if, if us three were sitting down before we just launched, yeah, and I was like, right guys, tell me about the business, what is it that you want to do? Yeah, what would have been the, the bits that you would have shared with me around this is what we want to do differently, this is what we believe is really important if we're launching recruitment business today after all these different experiences?

Yeah, um, so At its core, it's product and technology. So we knew that that was our market, but it was more around the business that we wanted to create. We definitely didn't go out to reinvent the wheel. We just wanted to do recruitment really well. But what we really wanted to do is put values at the core of what we did. So the mantra that we took going into it was give everybody a great experience regardless of the outcome. So candidates, clients, and our colleagues. So to create an environment for ourselves that we could thrive in and we could live our lives and enjoy our lives with. Be inspired by the people that we worked with, but also give the people that came and joined us on the Pulse journey just an incredible experience, treat them in the right way, and then extend that out to the relationships that we had. So it was very much relationship-driven at its core. And that's how we wanted to do things slightly differently to what we'd been used to.

And like all of those things sound obvious, right? But then it's like you would have seen in your time in different companies, I'm sure you'd have heard maybe similar things, but then it's, do the actions match up to that?

Exactly that.

That's the hard part, right? Yeah. Like staying true to that when X scenario's in front of you.

Yeah. I think in terms of the markets that we'd, and the ups and downs that we'd experienced over the 20-odd years each that we'd been doing it, we'd seen kind of that real growth and come back and let people go in high-pressure environments. Very ambitious, really wanted to build something incredible, but did want to try and create an environment that wasn't so reliant on where the market was. We could create an environment for people that they felt safe, that we could treat people in the right way, uh, and not work in just a crazy high-pressure type environment.

We're actually going to go through like what that actually looks like. Yeah, today, because I think that, that's the, the helpful part. But I guess Again, part of like the beginning here, Tony, I'll come to you on this because I think whenever I've spent a lot of time with solo founders, recruitment founders, I've met a lot of different people on different journeys. I think one of the common things that I see when founders don't seem happy or unsure or just aren't quite sure on what the next decision is they need to make— a lot of the time it's rooted in really not understanding what they want. I mean, it is a loaded question. It is. It can evolve. And I'm sure, like, well, I want to sort of hear, like, if again we were speaking early on, what were the intentions here? If I said, right, what, what's, what's the, the plan with PulseTime? You're like, what would you say to me? What were the intentions? And were we like clear with that at the beginning?

Yeah, I, I— and this question a lot of so many people ask, right? And, and where you want to go with it and what's the purpose, what's the why. We talk about the why in recruitment all the time. And for us it's one of the big things is culture, you know, is, is if when you're— what sort of journey you've had is like sometimes you come from just corporate, or sometimes you just come from— you might have had a bit of mixture of both, like startup environment to go into corporate. One of the things when you're in a bigger company is sometimes it's really difficult to drive that culture. Um, so I think sort of going into this, you know, one of the reasons why we got to this point, like, you know, I've just turned 47, Ricky's 45, We got to a point last year, we were like, this is kind of a now or never moment. Like, we, you know, we, if we don't do this now, it's just never going to happen. As dramatic as it sounds, that's the reality, you know. So we, we were just like, we, we knew that we had the experience, the capabilities, the network, you know, the, the, the, the confidence to do it. It's just going over the edge, that, that going over the edge is the hardest thing. And actually doing it with commitments, you know, family, you know, all the stuff that most people have, you know, mortgages, financial commitments. So it's just, and it's actually being able to drive something yourself and actually it's you. I mean, the flip side is the buck stops with you, but it's actually, you can dictate it, you can drive it. It's all on, it's all on you. It's all on us. So it was a bit, I think that was a big, big part of it.

Yeah. And like, Ricky, how, because I'm always interested in this, I've had more and more conversations over the last 12, 18 months with founders who started with a business partner and it hasn't quite worked out. And I think this actually happens a lot in our industry. And I think any like transparency around how you guys so far have got better at communicating with each other around like what you want, because it might change, it might evolve. Yeah. Because I think I do, I'm sure you've seen it when you guys worked for different businesses and you have a lot of colleagues and friends who went out and started on their own. I think a lot of people are quick to make that decision of like, yeah, like Tony looks like a good biller, we get on, we have a few drinks after work, I'll go into business with him, right? So Again, at this starting point, from your perspective, Ricky, how did you guys have those important conversations around, we both agree this is like now or never. I know you guys have known each other for a little while, so you had trust built there and you wanted to do it together. But what did that conversation sound like? And did you have a conversation around what is it that we want? Is this a business that we want to grow? Is it a business that we want to keep reinvesting in? Is it a business that actually want to really have high profit so we can facilitate our goals in life? What did that conversation look like?

All the above. Um, we sat down in your house, didn't we?

We did.

In your kitchen, and we, with, with laptops in front of us, and we'd gone through all of those questions to make sure we were aligned. We were lucky in a sense that we'd worked really closely with each other, so we understood each other's strengths and weaknesses and also lean— could lean into that in terms of the roles that we created for ourselves. So, you know, I'm, I'm very much the ops, finance, marketing, strategy and billing, uh, side. Tony, very client-facing, team development, and that's the roles that we'd always worked in. So it was about reclarifying, okay, as the business evolves, how is— how are our roles going to evolve with it? And being very clear on those boundaries with each other, that was really important.

Smart stuff. We did that at the very beginning, right at the beginning.

We also talked about, well, what do we want it to— where do we want to go? What's the end goal? Um, what type of business do we want? How big do we want it to be? Do we ever want a potential event to happen in the future? What would that potentially look like? So we were very clear on the direction of travel as well.

I think that was also part of your question to me before. Probably like just getting going nerves, but no, it's fine. But it was kind of part of like the, the whole kind of, um, yeah, the reason why, but it was, it was, yeah, it's like, cuz you, there are some people that I know that you've had on here that was sort of saying, look, you know, it, we want it to be a lifestyle business where we've kind of been so fed up with, you know, the politics and just being dictated by people, earn other people money, that kind of thing. And then there's people that have gone out there that we know have done it for a lifestyle business and they're, and they're, they really, they've got a really comfortable life.

Yeah.

And I respect that massively. We've been in a situation where we've had a couple of, um, you know, sort of exit type situations or, you know, we've had sort of skin in the game and it, you know, hasn't really, the, the tease is there or the, it's, you can see what the potential is. And we were like, well, we, we want something meaningful. We want to build something, but we want to do it ourselves and we want to get to that point. So yeah, it, we, we never set out to say, okay, we're just gonna have a lifestyle business. Some people are really comfortable with that. That's great. That wasn't what we wanted. We were like, we want to do something, we want to build something with a view to having an event. And that was always— we were both very clear about that. It wasn't as if there was one thinking potentially one thing, or there was a bit of ambiguity about where we wanted to be with it. It was always really, really clear what we wanted. Yeah.

So that was all mapped out from the beginning. Yeah, I think that's—

this is where you guys have been being wise.

Yeah, shareholder agreements. What if one of us leaves? What if one of us God forbid, has like, is incapacitated, all of the kind of what-ifs had been mapped out. So there was no ambiguity. And yeah, we've had, I mean, we get on great with fr— we're very good friends at our core. So that really helps. We enjoy each other's company and we know each other's strengths. We also know each other's little nuances and quirks as well. So that helps a lot. Um, no, with the yin and yang, yin to the yang is definitely, it's, it's important.

I think when, if you are, if you have a co-founder, And that's really like how you want it to be.

It's like a marriage.

Yeah, exactly.

Your point as well, Hishem, like you, there's people that have kind of entered into this really quickly on a bit of a whim or just a bit, you know, a bit of a hasty kind of got caught in the moment sort of thing. Oh, let's do something together. I think we can both safely say that sort of through our career, you've kind of, you probably thought about people that, you know, you might consider, you know, what could I do something with that person? Could I go into business with them with, for their qualities and some of their, you know, idiosyncrasies and, you know, sort of quirks, and then you think, actually, this sort of forms a really good opinion of, or, or an idea of actually what would work for you and what wouldn't and what would complement you really well. So, and having been through it for the period of time we have and knowing each other in the way that we do, we got to the point where we were like, yeah, yeah, love that.

So just to round this out then, Ricky, quickly on this then. So really like great smart thing to do at the start Obviously I know we're like a year and I think when we had our call you were like, oh, we've like just had our first like board meeting.

Yeah.

So just to tie this together, how have you guys then got along on this journey in terms of like, we're a month in or 3 months in, actually this is a thing now where we're making money. Then you have to have the ongoing conversation as well, right? Because then maybe some of your beliefs and like what you wanted at the start could be tested, right? It's like, actually. There's a lot of money sitting in the business bank account right now. Be quite nice to take most of that out and do what, like, so how have you guys got on in terms of having those consistent conversations? Do you check in with each other or is it quite organic and natural?

Very organic, very natural. We talk every single day. Every major decision, every dividend conversation, every hiring conversation. I come up with a lot of ideas. Tony soundboards them, we test them, and we agree before we move forward. Um, so it hasn't— we haven't had any major hiccups in that sense yet.

Okay, maybe at some point.

Yeah.

And what's your interview day?

Yeah, it's still early days. Maybe it will all, you know.

But I think one of the other things on that is as well is that being a bit older and having quite a lot of stake with families and, you know, kids and, and commitments it, and, and having like lived, lived a bit and, you know, had some irresponsible times with the, the money that recruitment can yield, right? We, we've all been there. It's kind of, it teaches you, you know, the right path, I think. So you've, when you've sort of been a bit irresponsible and you've been younger and it hasn't really mattered to a point, you've kind of got that out your system. And we're at a different sort of, yeah, place in our life now.

Yeah, that's a really great point. I was, uh, speaking to a founder yesterday who It's like her and a co-founder and it's a lifestyle business. She has two kids, family, it's very profitable. And like, that's exactly what they set out from the beginning. But she did, we was talking about this co-founder conversation again, but what you just said there, Tony, about in terms of picking up on that, something that is an interesting insight for people who are listening. If you've gone into business or considering going into business in someone, Definitely worth having a look at or understanding what lifestyle they lead.

Meantime.

Because that is interesting. Like you said, you maybe learn these things on the come up where there's less responsibilities. But if you're going into business with someone who has a certain lifestyle that they want to maintain, that they want to upkeep, and then we do do well, you might then have big conflicting decisions there around, do we want to keep the money and do it or reinvest it and take it out? So it's an interesting point that you make.

It's true.

It's an important one.

And we're strangely similar in terms of where we are in life.

As well. Your kids are a lot older than mine. Um, but also the values— we, we'd worked with each other enough to know that at a core the values are right and ambitions were very, very aligned. So it just made everything super easy in that respect so far.

The other thing that I wanted to talk about in terms of starting, before we get into what we think we've done really well, yeah, is the— is this part what you were saying, um, both of you really saying around it's like now or never. And this is something that has come up a lot when I've spoken to people who took that leap, but just on hindsight felt like maybe it just took too long or there are certain fears that they had. So I'll come to you first on this, Ricky. And I guess the framing around this would be, what do you think were the biggest things that were holding you back? Was it the fact that you were quote unquote in a non-billing role for however long? Yeah, like the idea of going out there, sending in candidates, getting candidate feedback, insert whatever recruitment activity.

Yeah.

What is it that you felt like really just— what is it that you had in your head around taking that first step? Because then we can talk about what was actually like.

You hit the nail on the head. It was the first year that always put me off getting my hands dirty again and getting back to actual billing. Spoken about it for a long time, led teams, drove teams, got teams to good sizes, but hadn't been back on the tools for a long time. So there was always that fear of, could I still do it? Could my ego take it if I couldn't do it anymore? So talked a good game. Also, we were very tied into our old business, skin in the game, EMI schemes. At one point, a team of 40 we had across multiple locations. So we had a lot riding on that team. A lot of our emotional investment was in that team. So although we'd always talked about it and dreamt about it and and fantasized about it, however you want to put it, it was never the right time, um, until it became the right time. And that really came after crash of '23. Team came down to a certain size, changes within the organization. I was offered a different type of role to be much more commercial-facing, solution selling, no more team involvement. For me, that wasn't going to work. So in a way, everything happens for a reason. It was the right time for me to do it. So, but it, it did kind of force my hand. I'd love to say I was so brave that that's it, who's coming with me? My Jerry Maguire moment. It wasn't that. It was, it naturally, it came to a point where it was okay, I could go back and work for someone now, but I've probably learned everything that there is to learn. Done 13 years of employment, uh, leading, building, growing. What more can I take for going to work for another business now? Let's, let's do it. And then it was just about getting Tony to come along for the ride as well.

Do you have this, like, we can call it fear or self-doubt, or did you have, did you have that around taking that leap of like, I'm now starting my own recruitment business? Like, I can't remember exactly if you was in that non-billing seat or like you was close to it, you was client-facing but wasn't quite, quite you know, at the car? Like, where was you? Can you relate to that? Because it comes up a lot.

I'll probably add every, every, every kind of type of fear you could think of in detail. Um, so there's a few things for me. I, I, so I was, um, so I, I, I had a team. We grew the division together. I had, I had a team of 16, 17. I was predominantly sort of driving that team, very client-facing, very sort of commercially focused. And my role, previous role, was commercial director, uh, UK and Europe. So it It was, but it was very much about, about the team, about the growth, about the strategy. But a lot of, you know, client, client really sort of heavily into the, like, embedded within the client's development, new business, expanding clients, existing accounts, that kind of thing. I'd always kind of kept my hand in with, uh, billings with, you know, a sort of placement here and there, some senior stuff that I'm very much kind of, you know, don't know, I wouldn't ask anyone to do, so I wouldn't want to do myself, I wouldn't do myself. Roll your sleeves up, lead by example. But obviously as you get a bigger team, you kind of just naturally it that, that sort of hands-on element just produces— yeah, yeah, it is. So I think there was an element of that, but the, the— it was that fear of going over the edge of the sort of financial sort of stability and security that you had, you know, with, with, you know, decent salary and, you know, earnings off the back of that. But also because the fact that we were so invested in what we were doing, we built, we built a team of fantastic people, um, you know, that we were very invested in, we were very loyal to, you know, and the culture that we, you know, I'm really proud of the culture that we, that we built because of the people that we hired. Um, there'll be, you know, people watching this, and we, you know, they're people that we speak to, they're good friends of ours now, and we invested a lot of time, and we, you know, we had a, we had a great unit. And it was, it was also walking away from that. Yeah, we talked about this because it was— I mean, obviously at the time there was, you know, there was stuff that it kind of ended up where we are now. But even in those times, we had a couple of conversations about doing it then. I'm like, we've, we've put a lot of time and effort, blood, sweat, and tears into—

and while building— well, exactly, it was going great. It was, yeah, that's boom, you know, pre-23, after COVID, the whole industry was flying. It's so you push those thoughts to the back of your mind and you think this is a lot. You make a lot of excuses. This is, this is, it keeps us on our toes.

Yeah. And I think there's any psyche now, you know, you hear all these things like, you know, fortune favors the brave and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And you, you've got, you have all these things going around your head because you think, well, I could, you know, why should it be any different? Like, I can do it here. I'm getting paid a salary, but why, why can't I do it for myself? Then you have all these, you know, your, your brain's playing tricks to you and you have all these like the voice on your shoulder kind of thing. And it was, yeah, there was a number of things. I mean, I could talk myself in and out of it a thousand times over, like, you know, but, but you just get to a certain point. But I think the big thing was the team and the situation that we were in and the time and effort and that we'd invested into it, basically. Yeah, yeah, that was a big thing for me.

So just around the salad, I'm just, just curious, it's just come to me. Ricky, maybe you can like answer this, or what comes up for you, because you guys have been really transparent about it there around taking that leap. Like, now you're on the other side and you've taken that leap, most people I would speak to, of course it's hard, comes with its different challenges, but we'll go, I can't believe it took me that long to like take that leap. Yeah, I don't know, you might— you guys might think that or not, but do we—

we—

do we believe this following statement? Because it comes up a lot now, I think, and you guys have been in the game for a while, you've seen a lot of recruiters, you've known that works a lot of people, which is like top performing recruiters, it's a matter of like, um, when they start their own recruitment business, not if. Yeah, because I feel like that landscape has changed a lot in terms of you guys have both been employed for a long time before we took this. Yeah, I guess, Ricky, I don't know what comes up for you there because I do think it is an interesting time. If you think about when you started your, uh, like first recruitment business, the like options available then probably look quite different to what they look like now.

Mm-hmm.

So I don't know what, what you feel when you hear that, like it's a matter of like when versus if people start creating their business.

Yeah. That being said, if I compare my first entrepreneurial journey to now, it's night and day. How I'm, how we're approaching this, how we've organized ourselves, the tools we've used, the processes we've put in place, the platform that we're creating is night and day. So I'm a big believer that timing is everything. Um, and we've sometimes said, oh, if only we, what if we'd done this 5 years earlier? Well, then we would have had to have gone through that whole COVID piece and all of the stuff that we learned from that and the mistakes we made from the boom and the bust. And every year that we've been in the industry has been another lesson learned, uh, another year of experience and wisdom. So we could, yeah, we could say. 'If only we'd done it sooner.' I think it's just, when is the time right? When do you feel fully equipped to handle different situations? Because we've all worked through great times, we've now worked through some really tough times, and I think that's made us better founders coming out the other end of it because of it.

So yeah, it's, uh, yeah, I just find it, it's definitely like just an interesting landscape right now because not everyone wants to start their own recruitment business.

No, and, and it's not No, absolutely. And I, I understand that as well.

I, I mean, I'm— my view on that is I, I actually sort of don't agree with that. I think that, you know, the, the when, not if— I actually think the if is a big thing because just because someone's a really good recruiter, a really competent, consistent biller, you know, good at the whole kind of 360, you know, delivery, resourcing, like winning business, that's not necessarily like a, a, an absolute right path for them to start their own business because they don't necessarily they won't necessarily perform. And there's a lot of people that know they won't perform as well doing it on their own with no one to bounce off. Or even if they've got a co-founder, they still haven't got that security behind them. Because a lot of people that have got that security of a salary, they know it's guaranteed, they can just settle into their job and just be really good at what they do. And they're very comfortable doing that. I've worked with a number of people that have done— that are still doing it now that are really, really good recruiters. They're very, very happy doing what they're doing, you know, billing significant amounts of money, earning earning well and investing in their future, um, you know, saving a lot of money, and they're very, very comfortable with that, and they just know that they would better make that transition.

Yeah.

Yes. I mean, both of you guys are evidence of that for the amount of time that you work for different businesses. 100%. But it is, it is something I think, like, I'm sure you guys maybe have or haven't thought about it, but like, I'm sure you guys will be thinking as you add people to this journey, like, what is it that actually keeps people? Because I, I do think now there's, like, the information available, content, like, there's there's more and more insight now in terms of like what is on the other side compared to maybe when you guys were on the come up. Um, yeah, I mean, so I do, I do think, yeah, interesting. So let's go into what we think we did really well in this first year. So Tony, I'm gonna come to you first because since getting to know you both, I think the, the sort of word that's come up a lot is relationships. I think a sort of stat that sort of backs up how you guys have operated, what's worked, is that like 90, 95% of what you've done this year has come from like relationships or referrals. So it's been very led by your network, uh, and people that no doubt you've just helped throughout your recruitment career. Yeah. So I guess just like firstly, because I think I said to you, didn't I, we hear this phrase a lot, relationships. And I think sometimes that isn't massively helpful for people when we just keep overusing something. It's like, yeah, you've got to build relationships, build relationships. I think what's actually helpful for people is actually understanding from people's perspective, like, what that actually means. What does that look like? How do I build a relationship? What, what, what am I doing that means that I'm not building a relationship? Just actually to try and break it down. Because if you just said to someone that's trying to, you know, achieve more success in recruitment, just go out there and build more relationships, like, that, that's not very helpful. So let's just sort of start there, really. I guess from your perspective, how do we think about this phrase that you'd like to use, relationship-led relationships? Like, firstly, how— what does that look like to you? What does that mean to you in terms of in the recruitment context, like day-to-day, week-to-week? Like, what does that actually look like in practice?

Yeah, so relationships for me, I'm one of the— what is the thing I'm most passionate about, because I think it's— if, if I look back on, you know, reflect on my sort of life journey to date, it's all been very much driven around, you know, building relationships with people, understanding people, commonalities, you know, and also in different circles, whether it be work, you know, common interest. Sport is a huge part of my life. So the relationship, you know, for me, it's about just being on a level, you know, authenticity, transparency, but also connecting with it. It's about connecting with people. So, you know, for me, and also being natural, I used to talk to my teams about being human, you know, not unrelatable, not wooden. So those relationship pieces is finding like common ground, it's understanding people's drivers and really just sort of bringing all that together. Um, how all my stuff's been driven over through recruitment, and one of the reasons why I wanted to get into it, because you don't just go, oh, I want to, I want to be a recruiter. I thought there's hardly any people that say that. I certainly didn't. But it's, it's actually understanding people, getting to know people, and just broadening your mind with, yeah, what, getting to know different people, different personalities, etc. And In recruitment, it just, it's about intrigue. It's about getting, you know, very, so many different people you work with. You know, you know as well as I do, like, no day is the same. So working with people and having that challenge. And also there's a, one of the things, the way my brain works is I start to, I connect with someone or I start, I meet someone and I think they're very different to me, but I'd love to get to know this person more. But also there's a lot of people that all of us have met in recruitment that, you know, you think, oh, they're gonna be quite challenging. It's a bit of a, I'd love to turn that person around. I'd really love to win that person's trust, you know, through being transparent, through telling, you know, making them feel comfortable that I know what I'm doing, I can support them, whether it be as a candidate or a client. But a lot of the time for me, the, the relationships, 95% of the relationships that I've got, or people that all started as candidates, that's where it all starts.

Yeah, yeah, same.

So just tell me about love. What do you mean? As in like, you, what, you worked with them to progress their career, or you just had them out? Coaching, supporting.

I mean, let's be honest, right? Recruitment, if didn't have candidates, we wouldn't have anything. That's where it starts. So, but the majority of the people that I have relationships with that are long-standing, which, you know, I'm really proud of, and I, I pride myself on the way I work and the way that I set up my desk and my business now, is, you know, through, through candidates, through being available, um, being consultative. I've always been trained as a consultant, so it's, it's kind of like the whole, whole picture, you know. It's, it's consultative, it's helping people, supporting, but coaching, educating, but, but high communication touchpoints, but being available. I think there's loads of things at the moment about, you know, recruiters being really inaccessible and really hard to sort of, you know, get any of their time, or, you know, ghosting, whatever we want to call it. For me, it's always about being available, you know, helping people. I, I talk to teams all the time about don't just call someone when you've got something for them, you know, speak to them, offer them advice, support. That's what we're here for. That's, that's part of our job. I just think the job sometimes is so one-dimensionally seen. It's like I've got to match this person's CV with a job, with a job description. That's one tiny part of what we do, and it's one tiny part of what I do. Like, the bigger picture is that relationships, you know, candidates and clients I've known over the years, that they're not just, they're not just like a good relationship, they're, they're friends, you know. I can name 15, 16 people that are clients stroke candidates that I've either been to weddings, christenings, you know, box, amateur boxing matches, yeah, for charity. It's that kind of depth, you know, but it's that connection for me.

What do you think— because like I said to you, I think this is where it can get helpful for people, just out of interest— like, what do you think help— like, what are some of the things that happen along that journey that get you to the point where you're being invited to a wedding or a christening? Is it just like, obviously, time spent with this person, different experiences, different you're communicating to them in different ways. Yeah. You maybe go through some stuff together where you did speak to them about an opportunity, it didn't quite work out, but then you're still— do you know what I mean? Like, what are some of the typical things that happen that get to that point? Because it is interesting to think about that, like, yeah, we actually get to that point.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, look, one of the things is it— someone said to me the other day about some recommendations on LinkedIn. I'd say that probably 90% of the recommendations I've got on LinkedIn, they're not people I haven't placed, those people, but I've just looked after Okay, you know, so it's things like, um, being really transparent with, you know, processes, you know. And if you can't, you know, as a client, for example, if you're really struggling, just be honest, you know. Like, just one of the things we used to sort of talk about is a lot of people or client feedback when we win business is like, oh, we've been working with a recruiter and they've— it's, you know, a 4 or 5 week period has elapsed, they've just come to us and said, oh, you know, we need to up the budget. But they haven't told us why. They haven't sort of educated us and consulted with us all the way through the process. So for me, it's about being on a level and just having honest conversations just to say, look, we're kind of, you know, a week in, this is the trend that's developing with the role. You know, it's minor thing, but it is actually quite significant.

I think one thing I notice, and we both do, Tony is particularly good at, is he also lets them into his world as well. So it's not just about understanding the candidate. They also know about his family. They know about his interest. He finds commonality. Really quickly. And I think when you're building a relationship, it's quite easy to go into that consultant-client type dynamic and keep it quite, you said wooden. Yeah, it's really just loosening up and having a bit of fun with people, being memorable on those calls. And that's something that we both really strive to do. Tony's exceptional at it. And it does mean that these relationships then spawn over Like a decade, decades. It's not, they're not just transactional relationships. You're good for that one job. So a prime example, you didn't get the job. Two weeks later, they're still on the market. How is it going? You know, how are you getting on with that search? Is there anything we can do to support you? Do you want us to review your CV for you? Have you thought about this agency? Because maybe they might have other opportunities. It's just helping people.

Yeah.

And doing the right thing by people. I think, yeah, and that makes you memorable.

That doesn't sound really obvious.

That's the reason why people don't do it, right? Because it's— people ask you about USPs and, you know, what's your standout. But I actually think that, like, a lot— because a lot of recruiters, they're working in companies where it's just about KPIs. Actually, what happens is they become unconsciously devoid of the basics, and it's those basics that will help you strive. So it's that— I think actually it's very easy to to become too transactional as a recruiter because of the environment, you know, because you're a product of your environment. And because you're transactional, you're actually— the, the basics which actually don't seem that significant are actually massive. So yeah, I'm, I'm really open, like Ricky said, with the way that I, that I communicate with people, you know, like, because again, that's that— it's that— it's, it's like bonding, like, it's like common interests, and it's bonding about—

it's about—

and it's also making it not just about work or finding a job or like, you know, finding someone for a company. It's like, you know, I can connect on other levels and I love doing that because I love understanding about that person. The really important part about that is as well, if I understand what makes them tick in terms of what interests they like from a client, when I'm speaking to candidates, it's like, it's not just about what their skill set says on paper. It's about their personality and how they're going to fit with that culture and how that leader is trying, or that line manager is driving that business unit. So for me, it's huge. And equally with the candidate.

Yeah.

Because I'm thinking all the time, my antenna are going all the time.

Like, would they get on?

Would they, would they get— someone could look amazing on paper. Right? They look amazing and they're, they're a decent person, but actually, would they connect? And, and if you, if you don't know— I think this is the element of where I've always been driving my kind of recruitment focus and the way that I practice— is like, if you, if you don't really know that, that, that person and, and what drives that business and the culture of that business, you could put the best person on paper in front of that hiring manager and it just wouldn't, it wouldn't work.

So that's a big thing for Yeah, and it's a really good point because, and we'll get on to how you've approached this in your business, because you would have really seen this now you've been out on your own in terms of like technology, tech stack, AI. Like I think a lot of founders I sit down with, you can really get caught in the rabbit hole of always trying to find the next best piece of kit to bring into your business.

Yeah.

I speak to someone about this like this week because of course LinkedIn have a monopoly, right? And they're bringing out like another AI solution and it's about agents on top of LinkedIn and the information that can get. And I was just saying to basically what you were saying, Tony, which is like having access to LinkedIn's data is not a competitive advantage. Like you and your competitors are all going to be able to, if you do your booleans right, you do your filters right, you have their agent and we'll be able to access the same talent.

Yeah.

So if me and Tony are going to market with the same account executive role and we put together the same shortlist, like your 10 people, my 10 people, if you're looking at your 10 people and you're going Jeff, he does his sales and he's in the sales industry because he's got a family and this is what he's driven by and this is what he cares about. And also I know he also loves this about work and the type of work culture. And you've got that context that you're talking about. And then on my list, all I know is that they've got the skill set, they sell the same type of technology in the same industries. Who's going to have the advantage? It's the person that's got all that context that you were talking about.

Yeah.

So it is actually all of that information that you're talking about. That actually matters more than ever because we're all going to be able to have access to the same people and see like who could do the job on paper, but it's then, it's then that extra layer, like what you're talking about.

And then a credential on top of that, Hishem, is in candidate short markets, when you're looking for particularly niche skill sets, it's going to become certainly as AI starts to become more and more prominent, who the candidates pick up the phone to. Who's the first? Who are they gonna say hi to? You know, and we've got that black book of people and it's that high trust. So the relationship extends into that, something that AI can't build. It might be able to identify a load of good people, send out an automated message, but they haven't got— Yeah, you joke about that with me, don't you?

When I pick, I bring people and they just, you get, they pick the phone, hey Tony, how you doing, mate? Yeah, he, he jokes about that all the time, but that's, that, that's come from years of investment of time.

Yeah.

You know, and like you said, if you have 10 people, if I have 10 people, you have 10 people, um, the difference is, yes, I understand, I know about those people in the main, but also it's there if I ring them, you know, I've got a better chance than picking up the phone, or if I message them, I've got, I've got a stronger chance because I've gone out of my way to invest that time that they'll come back to me versus someone else.

Yeah. You know, and then just, just final point or two on, on this, because I know that this really is like a golden thread through, through this year, is like, because Tony, you would have seen this in like your commercial director, like, like there is a bit of a line here and you guys are going to have to manage this as you bring people in, because the stuff that you're talking about, that like you said, that is all those things, is quite hard to then be like, I'm building relationships, Tony, and it's then hard for me to predict what my pipeline is going to be and what number. Like, there is a bit of a line, do you know what I mean? So yeah, what I want to ask though is around this, because this will be things that people have heard, but again, it's a reminder of like, are you actually doing it? Are you having those conversations? Can you get better actually opening up and bringing people into like your life so you can connect with people? Have different ways to connect with people. But I think also the thing that we need to be mindful here, which is what I want your thoughts on, is we could be doing all of this stuff but with the wrong people. What, because I'm sure you maybe had to learn that because you could do all of these relationship building. Yeah, but then what if you're doing the best friends? Yeah, have no leverage in the market, aren't in, do you know what I mean? Is that something we need to think about? Because we could do all this stuff, but what if it's just with— when I say wrong people, just like people that might not be able to be a champion for you at some point, or yeah, there's gonna be people in that you do that with that may not be able to quote unquote help you in some way, but Do we think it's important? We're also quite intentional with who we're trying to build these relationships with. What do you think about that?

That's a really good question. I think, you know, there is an element of it being targeted and it being— you being very cute about how you do it. But I also think one of the reasons why we've all, you know, we all do recruitment is because there's a natural level of perception and, you know, reading people and, you know, reading the room kind of thing. But I think also there has to be a mindset, which I've always had and I've always instilled in my teams, is that You know, when you speak to someone for the first time, you know, it's about managing expectations, your own expectations. It's about, it's about like, it's a bit of a long, longer game. It's not like, you know, it's very rare that you will go into something. If you go into something thinking like, I'm gonna get something outta this immediately, that's, that's the wrong mindset for me. You know, it's about, it's about a longer game. It's about an investment of time, but it's also about earning that person's trust, you know, and, and through investment and through, you know, them understanding that you and, you know, the way that you operate, the way that you practice. But it's, it's, yeah. And also, but I think to your point, like, where's the, where's the, where's the cutoff?

But what, you know, there is, there's specialism within that.

Yeah.

Right. So it's, you know, we can't be friends to everybody. Yeah. We work in products and we work in technology. So within that space, if we're giving everybody a great experience, we can't get back to every single person. But the people that we do engage with, are they getting a fantastic experience? Are we following up on what we say we're going to do? Are we making sure that we're checking in? Later? Are they going into different hotlists in our CRM and making it more of a, a process that we can manage as we grow as well? Because you were touching on that. For us, it's about segmentation of not only the markets and that we're working, it's also segmenting it by the relationship that we have with that person. So we've put in some processes with our team now to help them to almost see it as this race to get as many great relationships as you can.

Yeah.

Um, that are in, you would hope, going to be really useful to you. But there is also that, um, realization and acceptance that not everyone will. Yeah. You know, it won't always lead to something, but if you do it enough and you're speaking to the right people enough, the chances are, and as we've learned, it will turn into something. In time.

So just to bring this home then, and then I want to get into some other bits. Tony, I'm going to tee you up to try and talk about— I'll just— I think you mentioned it briefly or loosely on our call. I think stories really help, and there'll be loads of stories out there where this whole thing that we've been talking about, relationships, long game, plays out. I think you said to me— let me know if I get this wrong— but like loosely after our call that week, he was gonna go for dinner with someone that you helped that you could— you didn't directly help in terms of getting to one of your jobs, but offered some advice when they were looking. You really helped them, and then that person ended up in a particular position. They then actually brought you in, and then you've ended up doing like X amount with that person. Is that right? Like, just give us a bit of a story, because I know you'll have loads of these, but I think it helps people just really just hit home, like, this is what sometimes these things end up looking like. Yeah, when we do this relationship stuff.

Yeah, just the basics.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, you know, I'm fortunate enough to have a, you know, a really good amount of those and I'm so grateful for those. But yeah, I think if someone said to me like, you know, there's one that stands out. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, it was a guy again, you know, which is where, you know, majority of my business comes from. It was referral recommendation about 10 years ago. He was a product director going into a product director role. He was working for a, you know, a major sort of multi-channel retailer and, um, I was recommended to him by another senior product person, um, because he was kind of at a point where he was having to probably take, potentially take voluntary redundancy. And, um, he contacted 7 or 8 product recruiters that have been recommended to him, and a couple of them went through the motions, had a conversation. The first thing I said to him is, why don't you come in and see me? And, um, he came in and saw me, we had a coffee, got on really well. Lovely, lovely man. Spanish, um, you know, and a very good friend of mine now. But it kind of went from there. And that, with him, for him, that was a huge, um, significant moment because he had been in a, in a role for a long time, didn't really understand the market, was still kind of putting his head above water for the first time, right? And he needed some advice and, you know, a bit of voice of reason, um, you know, a bit of a sounding board, a bit of a sanity check. And I just, you know, I'd spent some time with him and he really, really appreciated that. I mean, yeah, we got on well, and again, we connected on, on, you know, a lot of common things, but it was actually just really about taking the time to understand him and what he needs and supported him through that next phase of his journey. I put him in front of about 3 or 4 opportunities. They didn't actually materialize, but what he did do, because he was really grateful of my help and support, he had 4 offers on the table and he came to me and he sat down. He said, what do you think I should do? And we went through the offers and he took the role. And basically at that point we ended up building a team for him of about 30 or 40 people. And that next role that he went to, I didn't place him, another recruiter placed you know, but that recruiter was just transactional, just didn't really, didn't really care. She wanted to get him in and get a fee. Um, and, and I, since then, I've built about 7 teams for him. I've been to, you know, family events. You know, he's a good friend. He is someone I would call— is, you know, he's— people use the term sort of mate quite loosely, but he is a mate. He's a very, very good friend of mine. And, um, you know, we'll be friends.

I've heard it like so much, and all I want to underline there is like, you quote unquote didn't get him like the successful outcome you're meant to get. In your sort of working relationship. Like, I hear that so much from people that really think about this experience and take it seriously, that some of their biggest advocates, biggest wins, have come from people that you quote unquote didn't get like the end outcome for. Yeah, like it's really something that you don't, you, you don't want to overlook. Like, your—

some of your best advocates will be people that didn't place or you didn't get to that point, but how you created the prep that you've done with them before the interview, the feedback that you've given, the coaching that you did prior to the interview, again, it's selling of the organization.

The experience.

Exactly.

It's like, because that en— obviously we're here to find people jobs, but that's, that's, that is a big part of it. But yeah, it is about the journey and the experience that you give them. That, and that is the thing that, to your point, it— a lot of that gets overlooked, and I think that's where a lot of people fall down.

Yeah.

So Rick, should we talk about the— because one of the things that I think stood out when we prepped for this was how you probably had opportunities to do this in the position that you was in, in terms of like be smart with like how you had certain commercial agreements in place with companies. If there's certain volume there or you saw certain potential, you could be flexible, I can imagine. But obviously now you guys have your own business, like you said, the buck stops with you, but also you can just make these decisions. Yeah, right. So one of the things that also like stood out was around the commercials and how you was maybe smart and cute in certain scenarios, which led to you having more committed clients, but you was willing to maybe in certain situations be flexible on how they work to view what the commercials look like. Now, I said to you that this was interesting, and I want to just have a bit of an honest conversation around like, where do we draw the line here? And like, maybe over time you sort of— I don't know if we could— there's like a framework that you think about or something that could be helpful for people. But the reason why I think this is interesting is one of the, the consistent challenges when I sit down with founders who are in this part of the journey, saying no to work is like hard. It's really hard because it is different compared to when you're employed. Yeah, it is completely. I think when, when you're looking at an opportunity, you know how much time you can throw at it. And like, you don't— when you're on that entrepreneurial journey, you don't sort of really equate like a value to your time. Like, I will, I will fucking get that done, and that is an opportunity for me. Let's do it.

Yeah.

Yeah. So just give us, like, I found this a bit of an interesting insight. So just talk to us a bit about, on reflection, why this is something that we think was like a smart play, like the, the commercials and sort of how you approached it. Because I think you did do some interesting things, and I want to talk to us a bit about how, how do we navigate that? What's the advice for other founders to consider?

Yeah, I think for us it came, it was always looking at the every opportunity on its own. What's the potential of that relationship? Where could it potentially lead? What's the volume? What's the SLAs? And each one will have different answers. So there is no one-size-fits-all. So we've stuck to our guns in certain respects. If we thought it was just going to be a one-off, if we were maybe up against other agencies, all of that plays into holding firm, but if the opportunity has arisen, which it has done, where there's opportunity for volume hiring, it's client-led, it's within our space, it's exclusive, um, there's a much bigger play longer term, it makes absolute sense to package that up. And the way that we've done it is it's quite easy to go into those conversations with, this is what we want and disregard maybe what the client can do. So working collaboratively with the client and reverse engineering, okay, based on our relationships, we can have these conversations. What have you got to play with? Let's reverse that engineer, reverse engineer that backwards to this is then what we can provide. And that's allowed us to be really client-led. You know, a lot of our successes come from a reasonable portfolio of accounts, 17 accounts, but But it's not like Lowe's though, is it? No, it's not Lowe's, but high-value accounts.

Yeah.

Um, and it's buying sticky. Yeah, really good relations.

Yeah, it's allowed us to wrap up pieces of work.

What do you reckon is like the average? Well, we've got 8— it's like 82 placements I had said at the beginning.

Yeah.

What's the average? What do you reckon?

Around 7 on perm, around 17%. Yeah, I would say if you looked at it across the entire portfolio, it's probably around there. There's some 20%s in there, there's some sub, slightly sub-15%, but they're part of a much bigger play. And some, sometimes we just go flat fee. You know what, this is your, you know what you're in for, Mr. Client or Mrs. Client. You can, um, do all of your budgeting and forecasting, and you know that this is your recruitment spend. We'll look after it from here. We'll, we'll manage it end to end. Here's the 10 roles. We'll deliver that with you. And this is then the roadmap of how we're gonna do it with you.

One of the really interesting things around that is as well, is this comes back to the relationship part, is that we've had a couple of clients come to us this, in this, in our first 13, 14 months because we've got that relationship with them and known them so well, they've come to us and said, we're really tight on budget. We've got this. Can you do it? Can you make it work for us? Mm-hmm. You know, rather than like, oh, well, you know, we've only got, you know, well, we can't do it. Or, you know, we can't use agencies. They've come to us and said, look, can you, it's a bit obscure, but actually, is there any chance, you know, we want to use you obviously. Hey, is there any chance you can make this work? If you can, because we've got, we've only got this left in our financial year. We'll make up for it next year. And that, that wouldn't happen without those kind of relationships. You know, you just have an open chat about it and we've had 2 or 3 of those, right?

Yeah. And then it's led into, okay, we'll do it for this initially, but as we go forward, let's review. It might be that we start higher and then as the volume comes, it starts to go lower, being really creative to make it enticing for the client. To want to work with us. And at its core, it's trying to keep things exclusive.

We do.

That was going to be my thing.

We don't like working against other agents.

For people listening, what is it that you would like? I know you said it's not about— we always typically can go into these conversations about what I want, but there will be things in there you feel like if, you know, if we're having these honest conversations, then this is my ask and like what I need. Yeah. Because you both got to feel like, yeah, it's a partnership, right? So you will have certain needs, they'll have certain needs. What is that for you? Is it, is the main thing that you're like, if we do do this, then my main ask is that it's exclusive? Is that the core of that? Absolutely.

It's cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exclusivity, SLAs. So high touch points.

So what does that mean?

So we love a cadence call. So if, if we're live with a role, every single week we will have a Teams call with the client to talk about where the pipeline is at, the insights that we're finding in the market. Some of the pushbacks we're having, some of the challenges we're having, recollaborate on that job spec. So for us, having that to keep the momentum going, that's high up on our priorities as well as if we work on this, we might be up against an internal team. We accept that you're going to have some referrals from your own network. That's part of the parcel. But for us, those two things at its core give us the confidence. If we've got those two things, most of the time we're filling our roles. Well, I'm getting an ROI on it.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, unless— let's look at the fundamentals of like building relationship, right? It's constant communication. And each time, I would say each time you speak to someone, you, you know, they— you and they get to know— you get to know each other more. So it's little nuances, but it's, it's the more you speak to someone, the more comfortable you are, the more you learn.

We've got it right now. So we're in with, uh, quite a big logistics business, and it came from a relationship that I'd nurtured over a number of years. Um, but It wasn't a deep relationship, enough of a relationship to say, I'm going with you, Pulse.

I mean, let's just be honest, they were hard work.

Well, I wouldn't want them to watch it. I actually, I did tell them that you're being quite hard work because we had the relationship where I watched after him.

Tongue in cheek, we've got that relationship now, we can share that with them, right? That's the whole point of the video.

But that, that conference call, we're weekly now. It's getting warmer and warmer and more banter's introduced and we're joking and we're finding out about their weekends and It's just that line in the sand every week where we know we're checking in, and that's a really great opportunity to build on some of the foundations of that relationship building.

What do you, and I'm getting practical here, but ask what people like, what would be the typical agenda for a cadence call?

It can be a 5-minute call or it can be a half an hour call. These ones, if we're going to zone in on that one, they're typically 30 minutes. It's a how are you, how was your week, get some niceties out the way and learn a little bit about them and their lives. And then it's very much about the cadence. Where are we with the pipeline? Yeah. What are the ratios we've been working to? What are we finding? Any insights that we can share and an opportunity to talk through those CVs and explain why we believe that they're right for that particular role and handle maybe any objections or tweak our search and then action points for what's going to happen over the week. If there's interviews happening, it gives us an opportunity to get everybody excited about the interview, why we're excited for them to meet all the the stuff that you just put in the email, we can bring that to life on that call as well.

And feedback on interviews that may have happened so we can kind of benchmark and kind of hone in the search. But also it's also rechecking in on, you know, process, like whether, you know, are we still agreed that this is what's going to happen? These are the timescales because that's important anyway to kind of create some urgency, but particularly at the moment because the market's starting to pick up, you know, we don't want to lose candidates on their behalf. It's an education piece as well.

Yeah, you know, so if I was to say, like, Ricky, on this, like, what, what would the advice be for people who might sometimes feel like— because you guys have got the benefit here of, like, you can maybe sense check each other where you can be like, I've got this opportunity, do we feel like they're taking the piss a bit here, where do we need to stand firm, what's right for us, what's not. I guess what I'm just looking for is if someone's listening to this and sometimes maybe they, they definitely don't want to be perceived as like they're just being cheap and they're like dropping their rates.

Yes.

So there is a bit of a line there. So it sounds like what I've learned there and the advice is take it on an individual case basis.

Yes.

And you've got to figure out what you're sort of like, if there are things that you're happy to be flexible with, what is it that like you'd probably expect or really want as a minimum in return? And like, if like you guys exclusive a weekly sync call or cadence call That's really important. And so it's, I think it is just that advice there then, figure out what it is that you feel like if you get that, then your fill rates are going to be high and it's going to be a successful partnership. If we don't have that and they, they're just trying to fucking, you know, get me down on my rates and stuff like that, maybe not.

We had an email from somebody, one of our consultants brought it to me the other day and it, they'd sent out an email to 14 agencies saying, uh, we've got this role, can you send us your best 3 CVs and your best rate? Yeah, and I said, don't even bother. No, like, just don't even bother. Like, you, your time is not well spent in anything like that. That's, that's the worst way to start any kind of client relationship.

All the other recruitment agencies as well.

Yeah, classic. Really classic.

No competition, no interest. And I'm sure there were agencies in there that were all scampering around throughout that week speaking to their networks, wasting time on that. His time was best spent nurturing better relationships or looking for better opportunities here.

One of the things—

so there is a, there is a minimum standard there for us.

Sorry, one of the things I've just— this just comes to my mind, Hishem, about you asking about that question. I think one of the things that I am really, um, confident that we've done well from the beginning, and this is one of the things that we kind of set our stall out, was that we— I would say to anyone listening to this, like, don't, don't be afraid to be honest about, like, where you're at and why you're sort of asking the client for, you know, to expecting to be engaged in a certain way. And what I'm getting at there is we were actually being really honest with some of the clients that we've had the most success with in the last, you know, 12, 14 months. We've actually said to them, I've said to them on a number of occasions, this is us, right? This is, no one is investing in us. This is our own money. We're self-funded, right? So if you engage us and you value us as a partner, this is how we need to work because we need to, you know, the time that we invest, we need to get a return on that investment of time. Time, haven't we been really open and honest with people and said, if you're going to engage with them, that's brilliant, but we need to make sure that, you know, we'll give you everything, we'll give it our all, and you will get everything out of us if you stand by us and you let us make these placements, because that's how we earn money. We've got to get this business off the ground. And we've just been really open because I actually don't think sometimes people like clients realize that, you know, a lot of people realize that we actually are probably one of the only industries where, you know, until we actually place someone and they start and you've got the payment terms, we actually work for Yeah, right. We work for free. So actually when you, when you have the conversations that you can do on a level and you've got that relationships with the clients, you can be very open about it and not like quite blunt about it, but just say it's actually this. Half the time they don't realize. And then when you say it to them, they're like, I haven't actually thought about it like that. And, and then you say, then add in the fact that we're a startup and we're completely bootstrapped and this is, this is us. There's no, no one else investing. I've actually found that clients are really receptive to that. They get it. They, because it actually, it, it, they, it puts them in your shoes and they go, oh, okay, right, okay, yeah, because it's all on you guys. And also you don't get paid, you know, you're putting all this time in to find me people, interview, then offer, then they accept, then there's a notice period, then they've got to start, then you get paid, oh, 30 days after that, oh, okay. So yeah, and it, the penny drops, you know, we're dealing with bright people, but it's just, uh, they just don't think about it because they're in their day-to-day So we've been really honest about that, just been really transparent, and actually I've found that it landed really well.

Yeah, I'm not surprised that, like, you— the way you're talking about that, I can see that with learning about how you approach things, like, you're just being honest and you're just being transparent. Yeah, I think sometimes that really is a superpower when you go on this entrepreneurial journey, like, own that. Because as you can imagine, I've spoken to a lot of people, when they're being honest, you can fall into I don't want them to be perceived like I'm a small business and like we look bigger than we are. And actually just owning where you're at and saying, look, look, Mr. and Mrs. Client, this is why I'm asking for this, this is why it's important. I'm actually owning that story. You'll find it's really powerful.

You will find it is, because you— and you will find that not only will people appreciate that because they're actually, you know, you're— they're in your mind's eye, but also they will, they will respect like where you're at and like what you're doing for them.

And they're invested in the business. And yeah, like we want this for you.

Yeah. And then they actually understand.

We want you to be successful. We're seeing that with a lot of the clients that we've engaged with. Yeah, absolutely.

So should we talk about poll solutions?

Yeah, come on then.

That's been obviously pretty critical.

Yeah.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, so both of you, typical backgrounds, perm, right?

Is that what you said?

All perm, right?

Yeah.

So when— so in this first year, obviously we've covered perm, the bits that you've been doing there, but when did the contract stuff start happening? Was it very organic, like, just talk? Because, yeah, I'm sure you guys, uh, maybe given this advice or won't be surprised to hear, like, if you ever want to build, uh, build something of value, recruitment business, sellable, contract, or you'll hear something along those lines.

Yeah.

So when, when did the, the contract piece start and how did it start?

So we set ourselves a target of 10 runners in our first year.

Oh, so you wanted that?

We definitely wanted it. We didn't necessarily know how we would get Right. That's the target.

Absolutely important.

We're just doing some base, you know, recurring revenue.

Yeah. The recurring revenue helps you sleep at night. Um, and by January, that's where the contract journey really started for us and we almost stumbled across it. Um, so we'd done some work with one of our customers on the perm side. They came to us over Christmas with a request to, uh, do some staff augmentation for a new project that they needed to build. And I phoned Tony. I was like, Tony, this is, they need 10 people. This is all contract. This is unbelievable for us. It's like doing all the maths that this would mean. Um, then, so I followed up, of course we can help you. Okay, great. Can you send us your proposal and the outcomes and the deliverables and all that statement of work again? Okay.

This is well beyond.

So we led with, yes, we can do that. Yeah. We'll figure it out.

Yeah.

Well, but thinking it was just, it was basically We've got these 10 contract hires. Can you go and find them for us? Not like it was statement of work, statement of work, outcome deliverables.

Um, so we were like, ah, it's a shame. Um, listen, we'll probably have to walk away from it actually, because we can't manage a project. Also, we're very, we're, we're 4 months into our, of launching Pulse Recruit. For us to then put our head into a 6 to 12 month project that we haven't done before. Tech, you know, very technical. It just didn't make sense for us. We didn't know what we were doing. We never clicked. So it coincided with, um, actually a consultant in that particular business. Uh, I just picked up the phone to her randomly. Uh, I'd seen her on a couple of the emails just to say hello, introduce myself. Turns out she's actually was the program manager over the top of this project, right? And she held my hand And showed me how, so how to write the deliverables, did it for us, but held us, held our hand through it. So we had complete visibility. So we were learning, learning, learning, ended up placing all 10. Um, and that was the beginning.

And then that client know that you was working with her?

Uh, yeah. Right. Yeah. She basically said, look, I'm the program manager, so I'm going to be over the top of it anyway. I like you guys, built a really quick relationship with her, like you guys, I'm gonna hold your hand through this. So, and we found her great people. Mm-hmm. And so proved ourselves on the delivery side really quickly. And that extended out to other projects that she was looking at within that particular client.

Could you just, just take a moment? So firstly, one, how would you describe what a program manager is like from my understanding when I sat down with you?

Yeah, they sit over the—

straight and—

yeah, over the top of multiple projects. Yes, all of the organization, all of the upward stakeholder management piece, downward stakeholder management piece, looking at the entire program of work and making sure that it all runs well, in layman's terms.

And then how would you also describe or explain, like, because like you said initially, you might have thought it was 10 contract hires, but then they said, no, we want deliverables, we want—

they did.

So how would you define the difference between the typical contract hire to the statement of work?

Not a huge amount. Of difference really. It's just having some accountability and helping the client to understand what this person is going to be doing. And I think it's all tied into inside our R35, outside our R35, right? So this was all stuff we were learning.

Yeah.

So inside our R35, they're effectively an employee, but doing a day rate. Outside, they're a consultant to that business. They're going in with a very clear plan. They're not reporting to anyone. They can work their own time. They can work from anywhere. So they're just very much consultants, B2B type relationship. So we're learning all of this and that's really interesting. Place that, that they went on and in the meantime, other relationships with other clients we're placing time and material contractors with. So by March we were up to about 15 contractors, maybe 16.

Did anything surprise you when it came to, like you obviously backed yourself, but when you then went to market, speak to contractors, was that hard?

Oh, I loved it. It was, for me, it's just the breath of fresh air.

He was in his absolute element.

How come?

Is it fast and it's quick and it's, it's just, it's fun, right? It's not a— we've been used to 3, 4 week processes in perm our whole careers. Now we're introducing contractors to the client and it's been turned around in 3 days.

And it basically—

I'm the most—

I'm the most impatient, which is ironic because we worked at a recruitment for so long. This came along, he's like, oh my God, I've literally found my knee. Like, after all this time, where have you been hiding all my life?

Yeah, it was like—

did you not find it? Did you just figure out like, who should I speak to?

It wasn't that exactly that. Okay, just networking and putting pieces together and listening and, um, working through the food chain as well, making sure that I was making friends with the right people in that particular organization. And like I said, our contract book is probably across 7 accounts now.

7, right?

Yeah, 7 or 8 accounts. So it was in coinciding, but that's where the main bulk of the learning came from. In answer to your question, how did Solutions come about?

Well, just quickly, sorry. Yeah. Because it's also part of the learning curve and I think why sometimes people who've always done perm are like, oh my God, how does it work? How did you then finance it?

So we use a factoring company.

Okay, of course. You went down on that, right?

Yeah.

And that can again be like, oh yeah, and we had to figure it out. We didn't realize what percentage they were taking initially. We thought it was at the margin. We didn't realize it was the whole invoice. And so lots of cool lines.

What I just want to underline here, which I think— may agree with this, but I think this is one of the coolest things about the entrepreneurial journey. Yeah, learning is like learning. Yeah. But then you had this opportunity and you're like, let's do it.

Yeah.

And now we'll go into Pole Solutions, but it's like you made that decision, you figured it out, you've learned a ton, but you did— you were just able to make that decision. Yeah, it was great. There's no one that you had to go, should we do this?

We weren't allowed— in our, in our old companies, we weren't allowed to touch contracts. It was always this thing that we saw over there and looked good, but we just weren't allowed to.

And we, and we win business readily, and because of the way that it was set up and structured, we just, you know, we to vote. Yeah.

And I think again, again, back to— I know we've spoken about a lot, but it's just again another example. Because you built trust with people, they then obviously came to you open-minded around, can you help?

Yeah.

That's the other thing again where this is sort of come full circle.

Yeah.

Really, do you know what I mean? You didn't go out there sniffing for hiring managers and program managers. No, it's like they said, hey guys, you've done a really good job here, like we've got this going on.

Yeah.

Is that actually something you guys can help with?

And then exactly. And so this first hire happened, it was in the month before we officially launched. It was a permanent hire for that business that then led on to another hire that I was making, and that then led them to ask if we could potentially help with some freelance or day rate contracting stuff.

Yeah, give us the, the birth of the Pole Solution.

So that program manager then went on to be CIO of another business, um, and we helped her to staff up, um, best part of like 20, 20 perm hires for a new target operating model that she needed to put, uh, to implement. Um, but wasn't happy in that role and we could see it and we had the foresight. She's very well connected. She can sell projects. She can then scope them and deliver them. Why don't we do something where we launch Pulse Solutions, which is now obviously the name and Pulse Solutions can go out and win projects and Pulse Recruit can power that, deliver, yeah, um, and deliver and, and find great talent. Um, so it was a bit of a match made in heaven, uh, in that sense.

So when, when did that start? In August.

August, yeah.

Um, again, it is from relations, isn't it?

Building a relationship, exactly. Getting to know that person. We went out for dinner, I think, very quickly with, with her. We went to, uh, a few gigs. We just enjoyed each other. We got to know a situation, the family, and yeah, just authentic— authenticity, being human, caring when through ups and downs and different challenges, and just building trust.

Love it. So going into the second year now then, and I guess I'll come to you, what, what is it that we're really doubling down on? Like, what is it that we really want to stay true to? I think fair to say— I don't know, you tell me— like, that first year, besides— I'm sure there's been loads of great moments in some great wins in there. Like, must be really cool to take a bit of a step back and be like, we took this leap and actually we're doing some really good things, working with some really great people. How are we feeling about year 2? What are we doubling down on? What are we trying to protect at all costs? Because I think, hopefully you'd agree, but first year, pretty successful year.

I think we're doing alright. Yeah.

So like, what are we doubling down on going into year 2? Because like, what's important now? Because You've got some things to protect now. We've got, yeah, people on a journey. It looks a bit different now, isn't it?

There's, there's a lot of stake.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think, I think, look, um, so how I would sort of surmise it is that we're really, um, we're really pleased with the first 14 months. There's been a— we've learned a lot, and it's scary. It's really scary. Um, and, um, but I think that's good because that keeps you on your toes, and it, it basically, it, it helps to sort of eradicate any elements of complacency. But then when you have some positive results and, you know, they, they're quite perpetual, it's still easy to, to sort of fall into a bit of a, bit of a trap. One of the things that we've always talked about from the moment we decided to do it, and we talk about with our team now, is about accountability. And I think for us that we've, you know, we're really proud of the foundations that we've built. But yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot to do. I, I keep saying to people like close to me, they go, oh, you're doing brilliantly. I'm like, anyone that knows me, like, I'm very, very grounded. I'm like, yeah, it's okay, we've done all right.

Feet on the ground.

Yeah, feet on the ground. But it's very much about, you know, my mentality and our mentality is there's been some really good stuff, there's been some unbelievable learns, there's been some mistakes, but that's how you learn. But also, you know, with— there's a lot to do and a long way to go. So I think, you know, if the journey we're on, the the, the, where the, the goal that we want and where we wanna get to, there's, there's a, there's a hell of a lot to do. So I think for us it's building on the really good stuff. It's, it's learning from the stuff that we could probably have done better. Um, but also it's about, it's about investing in our people and looking after people, but it's about having the right people to be able to do that. And it's also focused on about quality and about good experiences, um, with the right, working with the right clients that really believe in us and, and value us for what we do and what we can give to them. Mm-hmm. But it's also, I think, you know, You know, we've been talking to, uh, you know, with the next sort of, um, I suppose the next stage, the next evolution of us is having some good advice from outside, you know, keeping each other accountable, but having some advice from outside in an NED capacity to take us to that next level. But it's about, you know, we've always been very focused on NFI per head and not just headcount vanity. So it— because it's really easy to go, okay, we've had some success, we've got some money in the bank, we've got, you know, we're comfortable comfortable. I don't really like that phrase because comfortable is not good, but we're in a position where we could just start hiring people left, right, and center. For us, it's about, it's about the right people at the right time, right? And, and, and it's, it's about not getting carried away. So it's keeping each other very, very grounded.

Again, it's back to like you guys knowing what you want. Yeah.

And also, it's a— we're in this period now since May, we've started to grow the team. And so we've been really founder-led.

Yes.

90% of the billings has come from Tony and I.

Um, so now it's that, that is the next stage.

The next stage is okay, we want to, we're going to stay hands on and continue to bill, but how can we now allow the team to elevate and to also take accountability for that part of it as well? So that's going to be a transition that we, it's going to be new and we're going to have to work through that.

So you guys are just really dead set on, so yeah, in no rush to like grow headcount, want to stay really stringent with like productivity per head?

I think we've got to, we've got to make sure that the team we've got now is producing in the way that we believe they can, and they're already starting to show that. And yeah, not getting carried away. Fantastic first year. Let's make sure that the triggers to hire are right. Jobs per head, NFI per head. Are we seeing positive trends in overall job flow throughout the business with the additional headcount? First views should be on the rise naturally because of that. So if all of the levers that we pull and push are showing that we should grow, then we will grow. But we're not gonna go crazy. We've seen the ups and downs and there's no point.

And I can imagine, I'm assuming here, but type of person that you're going to be bringing on, I can't imagine what would bring a completely green people.

Yeah, no, like you want adults so much because they'll be in recruitment And because of the value that we put on relationships, we want people that can come with an existing black book of people that they know they can pick up the phone to and is going to, they're going to answer and say hello. Um, so we, we absolutely can train and help people to develop in that area. But for us, some evidence of 360 recruitment, billing, knowledge of their vertical and evidence of taking accountability and the right values, for us, that's going to come from someone front who's got more experience and has demonstrated that. It's too much of a risk for us at this point of our evolution. It's not to say in the future we won't look at a different type of profile, but that's the right profile for where we are as a business. Also, just in the stage of their lives, we like people that are at a certain stage. They're getting married, they're having kids, they're going on holidays.

We're maybe a bit more settled.

Yeah, we connect with them and find it easier to tap into those types motivations than maybe the younger demographic. Not to say that we've got anything against it and we won't look at it in the future, but what we're building culturally, that's, that's right for where we are as a business right now.

Again, it's just important to know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because then you know the types of people that— yeah, yeah.

Because it's going to be a mind shift, right? Because, because everyone that we've hired at the moment, you know, everyone that we have around us now, we've surrounded ourselves with, are people that are from our But again, relationship-driven, right?

Yeah.

So, and we know those people, or indirectly we know them. So there's a, you know, everyone knows any hire you make is always a risk. Um, but, but it, if you've got that sort of calculated risk where you know those people or they're recommended to you, you know, come, come, come, you know, sort of, um, you know, well, well recommended as such, you, it's, you're putting yourself in a much better place. It's not a safe place, but it's, it's a better place. And that's where we're at. So I think for us, as we as we scale, you know, whether in some periods of time it's quicker than other times, there's gonna have to be a mental shift for us because it will be— yeah, the well will run dry. Yeah, you know, and also there'll be different people we need for different roles, and it will be some people, you know, that we will be hiring people that we don't know. That's, that's some— that's, that's a fact. Yeah, at some point.

Yeah.

But so that shift is like, okay, so there's a bit of a— there's an even more of a leap of faith there to go, okay, well, we've got We've got to do our due diligence, you know, we've got to take a leap of faith on someone that, you know, we think with all of our kind of, you know, weights and measures and checking that person and, you know, that perception of that person and their ability to do the job, we think is there. I mean, we, we've taken some gambles on some people in the past that were a bit like, oh, you know, we've trusted our instincts and really gone with our conviction. They've been absolutely brilliant. Yeah, in the main, you know, we've been really lucky. A couple of people who we thought were an absolute superstar, and I'm sure everyone that would you talk to in recruitment or sit on this sofa would say exactly the same.

You never really know.

Yeah. So that's that. And that, you know, you talk about like this next year, you know, I, I'm sure that will be, that will be a factor in our, in our evaluation and our growth.

I think, like I said, the most important thing is you, you— it sounds like you've already got a clear idea on like the types of people that you think could work really well in your culture and add to it versus not. I think that's just the most important thing.

Yeah.

But it is going to be in obviously this next chapter, as you say, that is going to be the interesting part, right? Because you guys are so close to everything and you've got your hands involved in stuff. Um, but as we go on this journey, if we want to, I guess, like, just keep being able to, like, provide the services and we're getting opportunities and work with the clients, we're gonna have to bring people on that journey that maybe you can't be close to.

Control freak in me.

Yeah. So, because a lot of it— this is the benefit of being of, of this size, like, you can do a lot of, a lot of things through proximity. Yeah, right. So, um, look, I think it's been like really cool to break down this journey. I really appreciate both of you doing it, being super transparent. I think, yeah, overarching message is just really don't overlook those relationships. And even though you may not be getting stuff from those relationships today, don't forget that if we're in this for the long haul, there's so many great things that can happen along the way. Um, we We can start a contract book through relationships. We can, you know, work with a client 7 times over. That really is the message here. And actually just really committing to doing the right things and those world-class basics every single day, every single week, that just compounds. And that's actually really powerful. So appreciate both of you joining me.

Thanks for having us, Hishem.

Thank you, Hishem.